Lets accept that Nawaz Shariff had an agreement with SArabia. If he returns, he is doing sonmething that is morally not ideal. But often judgement has to be made not between good and evil but between lesser of the two evils. I think, Nawaz’s situation falls into this.
Between creating some hope for the return of civilian rule in Paksitan and sticking to a ‘deal’ with SArabia which, perhaps, in the first place, was made to undo convictions in false cases against him, his choice of coming back will be morally less problematic.
Further, if we make (and should make) promise keeping as a value, where does Musharraf himself stand on it? Did he not promise the nation that he will remove the uniform on December 31, 2004?
So, it seems to me that both viz-a-viz Musharraf and viz-a-viz choices available to him, Nawaz Sharif’s decision to come back is morally less reprehensible than other options.
Provided your assumption is correct about the deal:
Musharraf cheated with the entire nation, if NS follows suit it does not justify his (NS) cheating, cheating is cheating. 2ndly Musharraf cheated with the Pakistani Awam (who are very used to it) whereas NS is cheating at an international level (with a brotherly Islamic Country), would like your thoughts on how NS would face Saudia (and other countries), how much value his words would mean to them we he would be speaking on behalf of Pakistan as a PM. To me it would be a blot for the rest of not only his life but for Pakistan as well, it is equivalent to the blot which US had when they made Powel to lie to the UN about WMD. No matter waht it would always keep haunting US.
NS made a deal as a normal citizen of Pakistan, not as Government Representative or Prime Minister of Pakistan.
Musharraf made deal as Army Chief of Pakistan and President of Pakistan.
Any international deal is VOID unless President endorses it. In Nawaz Sharif case, the deal with Saudi Arabia was not endorsed by President Tarrar and therefore SC has called it illegal deal. Tarrar only signed pardon, nothing else.
So you finally admitted that he made a deal, let the rest be left to personal interpretations!
As far as Saudia is concerned she is now really “placed well” as a Guarantor and all the Islamic Countries would alsways look (whenever in trouble) towards Saudi Arab?
If you have some personal problem with NS, then I can’t help you and I don’t want to waste time on someone who is in minority.
But let me try give some educated reply:
- NS always said that he NEVER had a deal with Musharraf or his government. He never said that he did not have a deal with Saudi Arabia. Show me any video evidence if you have.
- Musharraf always said that NS was sent on EXILE. Check dictionary and you will find that EXILE = PUNISHMENT, EXILE is not FUN.
- On what basis NS was sent on Exile (Punishment)? Well he tried to kill so many people on a plane including Musharraf. Now tell me why that agreement has name of Shahbaz Sharif, Hassan Nawaz, Abbas Sharif and so many more members of his family? They had ZERO charges, no tax, no corruption, no hijacking, no NOTHING. How were they sent to EXILE on same agreement?
- If NS made an agreement, why Musharraf let him go? Musharraf was the biggest beneficiary of this agreement as he ruled Pakistan all alone with ZERO opposition.
- Why Musharraf did not show the complete agreement in court? Why he is so scared?
“Musharraf was the biggest beneficiary of this agreement as he ruled Pakistan all alone with ZERO opposition”
Although you did your best to avoid the word deal (as PPP is trying to say dialogues instead of deal) but the truth always comes out, now you have said “agreement”, though you have tilted the balance of benefit in favour of Musharraf, to which I do not have any reservations.
Life would be much more easier for NS supporters if they admit the following:
(a) NS ran like a coward (life was not in danger but comfort certainly was) through a DEAL (no other word pleaseee).
(b) NS acted like a true opportunis to embark upon the benefit which was purely a result of CJ’s struggle.
(c) NS past is as corrupt as BB’s
(d) Nas has already taken two U-Turns (i) Accpeted LOTAS from PML(Q) and (ii) Presented himself to US as champion to fight terrorism.
The problem with you guys is that once i reply on any baseless propaganda, you cunningly and cleverly add new propaganda and come to baseless things like “CORRUPT” etc to show your personal hatred against NS.
I never said that NS is Paak Saaf Angel. My reply was in context to Deal, not any other topic. I can open 10000 charges against your favorite leaders if I want to but I don’t want to launch another hate debate like you.
NS did not run like a coward. You can never have something fair when you have “ONE MAN” vs “ONE ARMY” and I will call it “Retreat and Attack” strategy, as this has been practiced by even prominent Muslim leaders in past.
Another fact is that NS was never sentenced by a CIVIAN COURT and never in Jail.
He was all the time under Military Detention in 16 century Attock Fort, not like others who were in proper jail.
And NS’s son, brothers, nephews were all in 14 months in illegal military custody without single charge.
I will call one very selfish who would not try to save his family from illegal armed gangsters who do not know what is rule, law, constitution.
I would encourage you to challenge the point that you think is baseless and we can exclusively discuss the topic of your choice, everything that I have said has a base and it certainly is not propaganda.
Banta
“NS did not run like a coward”
Can you please provide one single reference of any article from a newspaper (not by Ata Ul Haque Qasmi) which is inline with your invented theory of RETREAT Strategy (exile)?
Banta
“Another fact is that NS was never sentenced by a CIVIAN COURT and never in Jail”
This is not because he never comitted a wrong, this is because he had justices “like” Qayuum and Rafiq Tarar to rely upon.
Let me come from a different perspective:
You would agree that Musharraf is an illegal president, I am assuming that your answer would be YES (correct me if I am wrong). But since SC has legitimised 17th amendment and based on (a) all the tricks by his corrupt leagal experts and (b) Doctrine of Necessity etc, he is a legitimate President. Why, because he was in power and it wasn’t difficult for him to get away from it. In common man perception, he would remain illegal no matter what SC judgement is.
Similarly NS has done a lot of misdeeds but since he used his Brief Cases to buy and bribe judges, therefore he got free from all the cases, it does not mean that he is not corrupt. So brother (if I may say so), yes he has not been sentenced in a Civil court, but there are very obivous reasons for it and I think you know it too.
This is normal, whenever it comes to prove you give up, so you don’t have any news paper article to substantiate your Exile theory?
Similarly you shyed away to point out the issue which in your opinion is baseless propaganda, because you knew very well that I can provide the links to contradict your claims.
Next time when you want to engage in such discussion, do have the patience to reach to a logical conclusion. BTW this did happen once when you acknowledged several BIG MISTAKES by NS.
I already gave logical and educated reply to your baseless propaganda, but they are too much for you to understand. You can go and live in Burma if you love military generals.
Choice is yours, at least I didn’t force you to answer. You should only indluge in such discussions when you have the patience and will to let the discussion take its logical course, as you did when we had the 1st contact and you ended up in acknowldging a number of BIG MISTAKES comitted by NS.
@Nadeem, Continue … Continue .. Continue with more and more baseless propaganda. At least I accepted a BIG mistake (Sita White) and NS accepted all his mistakes in his COD document. You live in fools paradise and continue to support gangsters, killers, murderers, law breakers etc etc etc.
I think NS did something really bad with you family thats why you hate him and love military generals.
“I think NS did something really bad with you family thats why you hate him and love military generals”
I can only request you to at least try to rise above this level. BTW this is what I call propaganda, never in my responses have I shown any sympathy for any general? I have clearly stated a number of times that I support NS and also that I regret the fact that he is standing with NS and MMA. I also acknowledged that he had an immoral past but since he has repented (husnayzun), therefore I am willing to give him the benfit of doubt. As far as other options (BB, NS, Musharraf) are concerned, they are equally corrupt and liers.
If I may remind you about the other mistakes that you admitted on top of the Sita White Case
(a) Inviting army to run WAPDA during so called democratic era
(b) Establishing Millitary Courts during so called democratic era
You called NS coward when he went away from military detention, this shows you Army bcoz you did not blame the other side of deal maker.
You said Army was legal because SC validated it, this also shows your love to army, you never showed how illegal way they came.
Not once you said that Army illegally detained NS and you never said Musharraf came through illegal means and kept on blaming NS, this clearly shows your bias.
Read my comments above, i never said that NS did not do mistakes, but you still keep on putting more and more and more and more mistakes just to prove WHAT? What are you trying to PROVE here except you hatred when I already said that NS did mistakes???????
You hate NS and you have some personal problem. 90% of guys on this forum don’t have that personal problem and I think we can live with your comments since every society has few misguided people like you.
September 6th, 2007 at 10:33 am
where is going mush? please commit.
September 6th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Lets accept that Nawaz Shariff had an agreement with SArabia. If he returns, he is doing sonmething that is morally not ideal. But often judgement has to be made not between good and evil but between lesser of the two evils. I think, Nawaz’s situation falls into this.
Between creating some hope for the return of civilian rule in Paksitan and sticking to a ‘deal’ with SArabia which, perhaps, in the first place, was made to undo convictions in false cases against him, his choice of coming back will be morally less problematic.
Further, if we make (and should make) promise keeping as a value, where does Musharraf himself stand on it? Did he not promise the nation that he will remove the uniform on December 31, 2004?
So, it seems to me that both viz-a-viz Musharraf and viz-a-viz choices available to him, Nawaz Sharif’s decision to come back is morally less reprehensible than other options.
September 6th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Kamran is behaving like an ass. I dont like Kamran Khan. He interrutps a lot.
“Mein hoon Kamran Khaaaaaaannnnn”
September 6th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
@ Tipu
Provided your assumption is correct about the deal:
Musharraf cheated with the entire nation, if NS follows suit it does not justify his (NS) cheating, cheating is cheating. 2ndly Musharraf cheated with the Pakistani Awam (who are very used to it) whereas NS is cheating at an international level (with a brotherly Islamic Country), would like your thoughts on how NS would face Saudia (and other countries), how much value his words would mean to them we he would be speaking on behalf of Pakistan as a PM. To me it would be a blot for the rest of not only his life but for Pakistan as well, it is equivalent to the blot which US had when they made Powel to lie to the UN about WMD. No matter waht it would always keep haunting US.
September 6th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
@Nadeem,
NS made a deal as a normal citizen of Pakistan, not as Government Representative or Prime Minister of Pakistan.
Musharraf made deal as Army Chief of Pakistan and President of Pakistan.
Any international deal is VOID unless President endorses it. In Nawaz Sharif case, the deal with Saudi Arabia was not endorsed by President Tarrar and therefore SC has called it illegal deal. Tarrar only signed pardon, nothing else.
Banta
September 6th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Brilliant Naseem Zehra, KK again cut her off before she could finish.
But she disagreed with what KK was implying.
Mushy is looking for a Deal for his own power. BB is looking for a Deal to finish her cases.
NS right now is looking as the only real leader.
September 6th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
@@ Banta
“NS made a deal as a normal citizen of Pakistan”
So you finally admitted that he made a deal, let the rest be left to personal interpretations!
As far as Saudia is concerned she is now really “placed well” as a Guarantor and all the Islamic Countries would alsways look (whenever in trouble) towards Saudi Arab?
September 6th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
kamran khan is dumb ass, please don’t waste your space and bandwidth on this stupid person’s program.
September 6th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
@Nadeem,
If you have some personal problem with NS, then I can’t help you and I don’t want to waste time on someone who is in minority.
But let me try give some educated reply:
- NS always said that he NEVER had a deal with Musharraf or his government. He never said that he did not have a deal with Saudi Arabia. Show me any video evidence if you have.
- Musharraf always said that NS was sent on EXILE. Check dictionary and you will find that EXILE = PUNISHMENT, EXILE is not FUN.
- On what basis NS was sent on Exile (Punishment)? Well he tried to kill so many people on a plane including Musharraf. Now tell me why that agreement has name of Shahbaz Sharif, Hassan Nawaz, Abbas Sharif and so many more members of his family? They had ZERO charges, no tax, no corruption, no hijacking, no NOTHING. How were they sent to EXILE on same agreement?
- If NS made an agreement, why Musharraf let him go? Musharraf was the biggest beneficiary of this agreement as he ruled Pakistan all alone with ZERO opposition.
- Why Musharraf did not show the complete agreement in court? Why he is so scared?
Banta
September 6th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
@ Banta;
Only elections will tell who is in minority!
September 6th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
@@ Banta
“Musharraf was the biggest beneficiary of this agreement as he ruled Pakistan all alone with ZERO opposition”
Although you did your best to avoid the word deal (as PPP is trying to say dialogues instead of deal) but the truth always comes out, now you have said “agreement”, though you have tilted the balance of benefit in favour of Musharraf, to which I do not have any reservations.
Life would be much more easier for NS supporters if they admit the following:
(a) NS ran like a coward (life was not in danger but comfort certainly was) through a DEAL (no other word pleaseee).
(b) NS acted like a true opportunis to embark upon the benefit which was purely a result of CJ’s struggle.
(c) NS past is as corrupt as BB’s
(d) Nas has already taken two U-Turns (i) Accpeted LOTAS from PML(Q) and (ii) Presented himself to US as champion to fight terrorism.
September 6th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
@Nadeem,
The problem with you guys is that once i reply on any baseless propaganda, you cunningly and cleverly add new propaganda and come to baseless things like “CORRUPT” etc to show your personal hatred against NS.
I never said that NS is Paak Saaf Angel. My reply was in context to Deal, not any other topic. I can open 10000 charges against your favorite leaders if I want to but I don’t want to launch another hate debate like you.
NS did not run like a coward. You can never have something fair when you have “ONE MAN” vs “ONE ARMY” and I will call it “Retreat and Attack” strategy, as this has been practiced by even prominent Muslim leaders in past.
Another fact is that NS was never sentenced by a CIVIAN COURT and never in Jail.
He was all the time under Military Detention in 16 century Attock Fort, not like others who were in proper jail.
And NS’s son, brothers, nephews were all in 14 months in illegal military custody without single charge.
I will call one very selfish who would not try to save his family from illegal armed gangsters who do not know what is rule, law, constitution.
Banta
September 6th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
@@ Banta
“baseless propaganda”
I would encourage you to challenge the point that you think is baseless and we can exclusively discuss the topic of your choice, everything that I have said has a base and it certainly is not propaganda.
Banta
“NS did not run like a coward”
Can you please provide one single reference of any article from a newspaper (not by Ata Ul Haque Qasmi) which is inline with your invented theory of RETREAT Strategy (exile)?
Banta
“Another fact is that NS was never sentenced by a CIVIAN COURT and never in Jail”
This is not because he never comitted a wrong, this is because he had justices “like” Qayuum and Rafiq Tarar to rely upon.
Let me come from a different perspective:
You would agree that Musharraf is an illegal president, I am assuming that your answer would be YES (correct me if I am wrong). But since SC has legitimised 17th amendment and based on (a) all the tricks by his corrupt leagal experts and (b) Doctrine of Necessity etc, he is a legitimate President. Why, because he was in power and it wasn’t difficult for him to get away from it. In common man perception, he would remain illegal no matter what SC judgement is.
Similarly NS has done a lot of misdeeds but since he used his Brief Cases to buy and bribe judges, therefore he got free from all the cases, it does not mean that he is not corrupt. So brother (if I may say so), yes he has not been sentenced in a Civil court, but there are very obivous reasons for it and I think you know it too.
September 6th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
@Nadeem,
Read your own comments, you opened 10 more propaganda channels and I am not going to waste anymore time with anyone who reflects views of minority.
Banta
September 6th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
@@ Banta
This is normal, whenever it comes to prove you give up, so you don’t have any news paper article to substantiate your Exile theory?
Similarly you shyed away to point out the issue which in your opinion is baseless propaganda, because you knew very well that I can provide the links to contradict your claims.
Next time when you want to engage in such discussion, do have the patience to reach to a logical conclusion. BTW this did happen once when you acknowledged several BIG MISTAKES by NS.
September 6th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
@Nadeem,
I already gave logical and educated reply to your baseless propaganda, but they are too much for you to understand. You can go and live in Burma if you love military generals.
Banta
September 6th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
@@ Banta
Choice is yours, at least I didn’t force you to answer. You should only indluge in such discussions when you have the patience and will to let the discussion take its logical course, as you did when we had the 1st contact and you ended up in acknowldging a number of BIG MISTAKES comitted by NS.
September 6th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
@Nadeem,
Continue … Continue .. Continue with more and more baseless propaganda. At least I accepted a BIG mistake (Sita White) and NS accepted all his mistakes in his COD document. You live in fools paradise and continue to support gangsters, killers, murderers, law breakers etc etc etc.
I think NS did something really bad with you family thats why you hate him and love military generals.
Banta
September 6th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
@@ Banta
So you decided to waste more time!
“I think NS did something really bad with you family thats why you hate him and love military generals”
I can only request you to at least try to rise above this level. BTW this is what I call propaganda, never in my responses have I shown any sympathy for any general? I have clearly stated a number of times that I support NS and also that I regret the fact that he is standing with NS and MMA. I also acknowledged that he had an immoral past but since he has repented (husnayzun), therefore I am willing to give him the benfit of doubt. As far as other options (BB, NS, Musharraf) are concerned, they are equally corrupt and liers.
If I may remind you about the other mistakes that you admitted on top of the Sita White Case
(a) Inviting army to run WAPDA during so called democratic era
(b) Establishing Millitary Courts during so called democratic era
September 6th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
@Nadeem,
You called NS coward when he went away from military detention, this shows you Army bcoz you did not blame the other side of deal maker.
You said Army was legal because SC validated it, this also shows your love to army, you never showed how illegal way they came.
Not once you said that Army illegally detained NS and you never said Musharraf came through illegal means and kept on blaming NS, this clearly shows your bias.
Read my comments above, i never said that NS did not do mistakes, but you still keep on putting more and more and more and more mistakes just to prove WHAT? What are you trying to PROVE here except you hatred when I already said that NS did mistakes???????
You hate NS and you have some personal problem. 90% of guys on this forum don’t have that personal problem and I think we can live with your comments since every society has few misguided people like you.
Banta
September 6th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
I am going to stop all comments on this thread as this is getting nowhere.
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