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September 30, 2007
September 30, 2007
Meray Mutabiq - 30 September 07
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At last Dr. Shahid is using simple sentences at the begging & end
may be he has visited this website & seen the comments already posted … :p
Nice disscussion between all three guests. Tanveer has got less time than other two guests but his arguments are more compelling and he has urged Mushahid to accept that current govt. policy has failed for Afghanistan. Moreover he talked about the intervention of US military in Pakistan from Afghanistan & again Mushahid has accepted this.
Former DG ISI, Hameed Gul rightly said that USA has no cencerns about pure political govt. in Pakistan or even in any muslim country, they only want those persons who favor them.
Good discussion. Now everyone agreed in the programme that only Muslim country that has an independent foreign policy is Iran. So can we say that Iran is a role model for other Muslim countries? What is the difference between Iran and other Muslim countries? Pakistan has a stronger army with nuclear abilities. Yes Iran has some oil and gas and they are financialy more independent than Pakistan. I think main difference is that they are mentally more strong and their leaders have the guts to stand against the foreign forces. I am not an expert on current affairs so just trying to understand that why Pakistan has become a puppet to US and Israel.
A very interesting Meray Mutabiq program after quite a while.. very captivating discussion. i enjoyed it thoroughly. It is a shame though that all of them accepted that everyone in power in Pakistan wants to be close to America and they all laughed about it. It was actually very sad. But I guess they dont find it sad anymore because it has been happening for so long.
There were good points from all sides. Even Mushahid who pointed out flaws in Zia’s policy. And then Hameed Gul pointing out flaws in Musharraf’s policy, with Tanveer speaking out about the erroneous policies of previous political parties. It seemed a well-balanced debate all around. Good work.
It should leave little doubt in our minds that the major policy making decisions are being made in DC. Benazir is the next pawn in thier hands and will very rightly become the next prime minister, so that she and musharraf can use state force to eliminate the religious elements in pakistan. ( though i doubt they will succeed). secondly, and simultaneously they will roll back the nuclear program, hand over AQ and backout of Kashmir. ALL IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.
However, i do wanna add a footnote here, and that is i think they are still underestimating the increased religious fervor in Pakistan. I have followed the growth towards religious zealotry in Pakistan pretty closely, the direct result of which we have seen in Baluchistan and NWFP. Dr Israr Ahmed once quoted that “Maulana Fazlurehman is a clairvoyant politician and if Benazir were to become the Prime Minister, chances for a civil war would escalate rapidly”. I think Maulana still has many cards in his hands. There is overwhelming anxiety in the streets of Pakistan. hunger, food shortage, price inflation, famine, floods, traffic are adding to an national environment of hysteria. Add to that the ferocious press and lawyers movements. it becomes an alphabet soup of disaster and despair.
I can remember a quote by BOB MARLEY;
“A Hungry Man is AN ANGRY MAN”…. Shahid Masood is right, the final decider is Allah(SWT).
betweem Iran and pakistan there is another difference …national and historical pride…
iranians are very proud, sometimes too proud, of there illustriuos past…and they see themselves as a nation…
We in Pakistan were systematically cut off from our history…anything before 1947 was made suspect and the country’s history was artificially linked to that of Islam…
the result is we feel more sindhi, pathan, punjabi then a pakistani…
we are a state not a nation…
Tipu
thats very true tipu… i second your observation
I cannot agree more with Tipu’s opinion
@Tipu,
Having met many Iranis, I can say that I have not seen any other people more anti-government than them. They hate their ’strict’ government and want the US to occupy their country and get them rid of mullahs. Being anti-government is different from being anti-nation. These guys are also anti-nation. I also thought like you when I was in Pakistan. Having come across Iranis, I am absolutely shoocked by their anti-Islam, anti-Irani government and anti-nation thoughts. They just want their 70s Iran back. They are also very secular in their approach to daily life. The guys told me that every common Irani thinks like this but can not say due to government’s control. At least we Pakistanis are much much better than them.
I found this hilarious video online; take a look, its like horror movie teaser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2AQH-GE9NU
good program..at least people participating are ready to listen to others too
@TexaxBoy
haha good find, I like the kidney shot in it…that is hilarious
The Conclusion is that,
Mushahid is wrong.
Although America remains central to our Policy in Afghanistan
But,
Our Afghan Policy during Afghan War was Pan-Islamic
and now
Our Policy in Afghanistan is Anti-Islamic
I think due to the parochial attitude of political midgets and stupid U-Turns.
We are at war with our sole.
STOP THE WAR IN FATA
SAVE PAKISTAN
@ Tipu
In Short
Yes Iranians are Nationalists, and Pakistanis are Pan Islamic.
“Pakistan First” is an evil slogan.
Period!
By now it is evident that a no confidence motion has been brought against NWFP government and that by the time Chief Minister would get it dissolved teh election of Pervaiz Musharraf would be over and NWFP assembly would still be in place.
What a clever game of FAzlu and company - these so called Islamists liars. Shame on them - this was all part of game plan and this date was specifically chosen by FAzlu and company in assocation with Pervaiz Musharraf.
His attendance of APC was also part of the game plan to destroy ARD and to trap and cheat NS and lure him to Pakistan and get him to Jeddah.
Converted Elite!!!!
It is amazing to see the wisdom descending on Tanvir’s Ears and Mushahid’s Forehead, about US and Democracy in the Muslim world.
Hamid Gul, Dr. Shahid & I know that irrational policy of United States in Muslim World is a consequence of Blind Hate and ill-founded Fear.
They Hate Islam
and Fear Zuban-e-Khalq (Muslim Democrats)
Allah Hafiz
@ Chussain
Accuse so many times that it must be percieved as Truth.
It is called propaganda.
In one Islamic Sect it is called TAQYA
the best debate ever !!!
Yes very nice debate and I think evertbody was right.
@Chussain
I guess it was molana who pressurized others to resign on 2nd october (being a leader).
Why dont MMA members kick him out forever !!!
Best debate ever!!!! It was the worst debate. Mushahid was ‘cherry picking’ his facts. He repeatedly quoted Iran pipeline to show Pakistan’s independence in foreign matters. But he conviniently forgot that pipe line is Iran-Pakistan-India. Even some details of the pipeline deal he is not telling. 72% of the gas will be for India, only 24% is for Pakistan. To counter this pipeline, USA is offering civilian nuclear deal with India.
And is China is your friend?? Let me put this in another way. Can china be any one’s friend. Wait for another 6-7 weeks. You will hear news about a civilian nuclear deal between India & China. Kyon China India par itna meherbaan hai. Its market forces that are driving China these days. Not idealogical. China needs market for their manufacturing sector and India is the fourth largest economy in the world.U do the math.
Now about Kashmir. Let’s be realistic. With each passing day the chances of you people ‘liberating’ Kashmir is becoming slimmer. This is understandable after the ass whopping Mushy got in Kargil.
So, Pakis stop day dreaming. Come back to reality. First throw out BB, Mushy, NS etc… All are corrupt and good for nothing. You people need a fresh start, a fresh face to lead your country and unfortunately there is none in the horizon. The only thing you can do now is PRAY.
The following points came out from the discussions
- Methodology to mAnupulate Election results
- The policies are made in US and puppets here implement it by hook or crook.
- The next Govt is going to be a manupulated Govt. and Qaid e awam/ Qaid e Haram’s daughter will do anything to get and keep herself in power i-e will be a US puppet.
- They will not get the results they wanted as the policy is doomed for failure.
What all he media, the Lawyers and judiciary are doing will be a eyewash. Pakistan leaders have showed the lowness of their character.
Rizwana
closing comments of Dr Shahid is my heart words
mushahid is one of thosw few miniters who always been reasonable .i dont know wat is he doin on mushrraf side ..n ofcourse hamid is the best evaaaaaa!!!
Easter NATO, well that’s informative. A new battle grounds between SCO and NATO it’s a quote that needs to be taken seriously. Brilliant discussion.
thanks admin for start posting on blip.tv(we can download as mp4 directly for mobiles).
many thanks for such a nice website….
God bless you…….
a good programme
but mushahid husaain is irritating
pakisatn shd be more inclined towards china n russian n iran rather than an eastern nato
Well i think we need a national reconcilation in all our Departments.
A constituion that can be only emited by the people and not a Dictator.
Army should be pin pointed in the constitution to just a professional organization that just does its duty!
No Army sevirng or REtired General can run a system or Organization.
Law should be above and every individual should be dealt with an iron fist.
No America and no Anti-PAkistan in our constitution.
We should come back to the main points and ideas of Iqbal and Jinnah for a prosperous and develping Pakistan..Long Live my sweet Pakistan and Death to all Anti-PAkistanis out there!!!
Allah hukbar!!!
Pakistan Zindabad!
@ admin
Special thanks for this programme.
Seen a good intellectual discussion after a long period and after lot of political garbage.
Thanks
A discussion that provides enough food for thought to review our foriegn policy. Mushahid Hussain though admitted that our foriegn policy has failed, yet he tried to beat about the bush by providing cover to Mush. He wrongly argued that Mush favoured Bush because we would have been attacked by the US, with India’s support. The reason for my argument is that have we been spared by the US despite our support? Mushahid please put your hand on your heart and answer my question. Tanvir Ahamd Khan rightly argued that the American bombard our tribal areas, kill innocent people. Much worse, Pakistan rather says the attack is carried out by its forces. Shame! Shame!
From the discussion of Hamid Gul and Tanvir Ahmad Khan, it is crystal clear that a resolution of the crisis is possible only and only:
FIRST: A solid review of Afghan/Taliban policy–an unconditional and total withdrawal of our armed forces from Waziristan and the rest of the tribal areas, followed by a paradigm shift from the status of a banana republic to a free, independent and progressive nation.
TWO: Empowerment of the people, through free and fair elections. The starting point of which should be the separation of Mush from power. Pakistan has to come out of the cocoon of a police state and embrace the status of a state where law reigns supreme, where judiciary is independent and where insitutions work with great efficiency to the welfare and benefit of their people.
May AllahTallah protect Pakistan and prosper Pakistanis.
Khurshid UK is absolutely right. Tanvir A. Khan did a fantastic job of putting Mushahid in his place. Mushahid is an ultimate turncoat and lota. The general and co are taking us down the route of total destruction. We are fighting a proxy war again which has no end to it. BB and he together will ruin our country forever. Mush must go back to his family and leave Pakistan alone.
Watch and read the following to find out the true face of the US basher, new born democrat, Hamid Gul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAX7Q7pcWfQ&NR=
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20020818.htm
“Now, we come to the second generation of officers who were in key decision-making positions during 80s. Former Director General (DG) of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), Lieutenant General (Retd) Hameed Gul’s anti-American rhetoric in post-retirement phase makes headlines off and on in national news media. It is interesting that when he was DGISI, US ambassador attended the meetings of Afghan Cell of Benazir government. In fact the major decision of Jalalabad offensive in 1989 was made in one of those fateful meetings. To date there has been no evidence (no statement by any other participants of those meetings or by General Hameed Gul himself) that Mr. Gul made any objection to the presence of US ambassador in these meetings, which had wide ranging impact on national security. It is probable that Mr. Gul was at that time a top contender for the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) race, therefore he didn’t wanted to be on the wrong side of the civil government. When he was sacked, then he found the gospel truth that US was not sincere.”
For anlysis of 60 years of US Pak relations read: http://www.defencejournal.com/2002/june/loveaffair.htm
It’s sad to see an obviously intelligent person like Mushahid toeing the establishment line and shovelling their crap. I guess he knows on which side his naan is buttered.
Dear fellow Pakistanis I got conclustion regarding our atomic bomb. As the nation nuclear bomb protect their nation and country from aggression but don’t you agree that our atomic capability becomes threat for us. If Mushi hand them to the US it can save Pakistan from US agression and hand them Dr. Qadir to in the best interest of nation.
These are all ordinary things and we all know that we are not sovereign nation. If the people like Mushi and other high up are the dogs of the US. Why don’t they go to US and leave us forever. So we can grow as nation.
I think all three people in this discussion represent three vital components of governing junta. The military bureaucrats, civilian bureaucrats and so called intellectual.
They are the part of problem and they are united when comes to any decisive moment or time, and they always work against the aspirations and will of common man.
They were trying to prove the point as if there is u.s written agenda on card to include Benazir in power. This is as if every thing has been done just in our own interest for last eight year in particular and for last sixty years in general.
Benazir might not be the best solution but she is the only leader who has some what following in all the four provinces. In my humble opinion though it might sound crazy Benazir along with Nawaz Sharief with the help of Fazal ur Rehman could Bale us out of situation we confront on our western borders infect in whole of the country. There is only one big IF and that is Military must be out.
Excellent thought provoking discussion, tough i belive discussion would have been more fruitful, if Mushaid hussian could have came out of his Musheriraf-fobia.
Tnavir khan was exceptional, and possess a very thoughtfull brain, where the hell he had been b4, i had never seen him on media, we desperately need these sort of people to put pakistan on a right path.
I think shahid masood was little inclined towards general political issues and have’nt given more chance to tanvir, for conveying his intellectual thoughts. None of them had answered single question raised by tanveer with solid justification and just beaten the bush around.
Coming back to the program, this is evident, that pakistani establishment had a thinking of American slavery. Initially, Mushaid tried to settle down the discussion by accepting the fact, our leaders possessed the american slavery, but suprisinly he fininshed the session quoting “american slavery establishment main nahi hai”. Did somebody noted this (lols)
Anyways i ask the muslims to pray for our conutry in this holy month, as we are at the verge of civil war.
Adnan - Tanvir Khan flew our flag in Iran, Russia, Bangladesh, France and also was Pakistan’s Foreign Secretary and later chairman of the inst of strategic studies. He writes some amazing pieces in the DAWN, I believe every Monday in the opinion section. He was at Oxford, and is still remembered as one of the brightest products of Govt College. At a time of need it is a shame that Pakistan does not use such assets - the real strategic assets of the country. Ours is a sad country where such people are left to write independent columns while the Govt of short-cut aziz and his mentor-general-self appointed saviour prefer sychophants to give them advice. Anyway there is no need for good, sincere advice when instructions (orders) regularly arrive from abroad on all critical matters. Great General Mush has sold out - lock stock and barrel leaving the Pak Army totally disliked and discredited after Lal Masjid and the quagmire which is getting more and more serious in Waziristan/FATA. As for Mushahid, he is a rather glib pretentious politician with very limited intellectual integrity and can jump boats at anytime. Another petty pawn in the current setup. I agree with Ash and Adnan - we are facing very challenging and disturbing times and there is no leadership to look up to steer us out of troubled waters. BB is certainly NOT the solution. She only wants her cases cleared and then will do the bidding for he foreign “friends”. Hubby sits in Trump Tower New York and together they have billions of dollars of assets (”funded” by poor Pakistani citizens!) all over the world including Dubai, London, France, various European countries, offshore save havens etc. How can she possibly be the solution…? It is bonkers to think so. A new political class has to emerge if the khakis would just let it do so. No quick solutions but for now a free and fair election is the need of the day…. wishful thinking…!
Great programme. Mushahid must stop sucking up to the faujis though. Makes him look pathetic.
hameed gull is a hero
hi
This is also Hameed Gul.
“Now, we come to the second generation of officers who were in key decision-making positions during 80s. Former Director General (DG) of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), Lieutenant General (Retd) Hameed Gul’s anti-American rhetoric in post-retirement phase makes headlines off and on in national news media. It is interesting that when he was DGISI, US ambassador attended the meetings of Afghan Cell of Benazir government. In fact the major decision of Jalalabad offensive in 1989 was made in one of those fateful meetings. To date there has been no evidence (no statement by any other participants of those meetings or by General Hameed Gul himself) that Mr. Gul made any objection to the presence of US ambassador in these meetings, which had wide ranging impact on national security. It is probable that Mr. Gul was at that time a top contender for the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) race, therefore he didn’t wanted to be on the wrong side of the civil government. When he was sacked, then he found the gospel truth that US was not sincere.”
And for more on 60 years of Pak US relations:
http://www.defencejournal.com/2002/june/loveaffair.htm
Dr Tanvir Ahmad Khan is not a CSP officer, he was inducted into foreign service of Pakistan by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto as a lateral enterant.
Mushahid Hussain came into political prominence as the mouth peice of NS. His flair to call his boss “Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif” is only comparable to his current passion of calling his present master as “President General Pervaiz Musharraf”. He compared Sharif brothers with Kennedy brothers, lol. He was inducted into assembly to speak always immediately after Benazir Bhutto had spoken on the floor, because there was no else who could do that in the entire PMLN . The changed his master after Nawaz Sharif ditched his party to ran to safer refuge. He is one of those who are always ready to lend their eloquence and brain to the highest bidder.
Watch to see the bright past of Hameed Gull in the service of democracy in Pakistan. He and a handful like him turned Jinnah’s Pakistan into Zia’s Pakistan.SHAME.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAX7Q7pcWfQ
commoner: hello to you…tanvir khan taught english literature at govt college after returning from Oxford University and taught my father and uncles there as well as many personalities such as wasim sajjad - he was considered one of the best professors - a true Oxford man and patriotic Pakistani who preferred to return to Pakistan than stay on in the UK. he then joined the ministry of education and worked under qudratullah shahab - who became a dear friend (ref Shahabnama) - and from there the foreign service of pakistan through competiitve examination. He then went on to be ambassador to numerous countries — he is known to be fiercely independent and honest and has dedicated his life as a public servant of highest calibre - whether he shifted to the foreign office(which was by the way through competitive examination) over a third of century ago) is hardly relevant. many of our csp and foreign service wallahs are a laughing stock who can hardly communicate coherently!! tanvir khan is altogether in a different intellectual class than mushahid who is just a petty politician with no scruples. you are right about mushahid
@Hamid
It depands, you met Iranian in which region,
after the revolution in Iran so many Iranian were exiled from Iran on thier own wishes who had settled in different part of world.
They preferred exile, because they were anti practise of Islam (inspite of being muslim).
What I meant to say Tipu is right on this point, at present who all are in Iran they are united where and when the nation is concerned.
But I agree with you, there are a few amoung all who dont like religeous restriction and are anti government, but again they also united as nation Irrespective of thier sacts and religions.
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