I think this all damn politics is nothing but a “Noraa Kushti”. Over then 4 years I been watching these talk shows but still same faces we see .. These all anchors are not really honest with their jobs ( how could they be, Anchor needs a job too) .. Nothing honest and Aim Politics but only for Money Money Money ..
@ Z Habib
yes pakistan and muslims in general, need a leader who lead them from the front.
you mentioned Imran Khan, but i personally think if Imran khan would be the leader he will be filtered up by itself through this crupt and bad politics. I think a true leader donot need to be forced from outside but it comes from inside itself.
@Commoner,
I like Ayaz Amir’s analysis. The problem that I see with his approach of all political parties converging with PPP on the agenda of seat adjustment is that this will give PPP look like a saviour of everyone when they really are not. This is the same formula that was behind the COD, APDM and ARD but PPP walked out of it because BB saw the opportunity to grab power. This approach will not fly now because of the bad taste that BB’s move left with other parties. To be honest, I would also blame PML-N, IK, ANP and others for including MMA into the APDM alliance when they knew that Fazlu would only think of himself and would likely betray them all. Some things just never change and Fazlu is among one of them.
I was just watching Bolta Pakistan, Oct 26th episode, where the anchors spoke with Imram Khan and asked him why he was opposing Fazlu. IK’s rely was that because Fazlu betrayed APDM by not resigning from the assemblies and also by not desolving the assemblies on time, therefore, if JUI-F stays with APDM then APDM will have no credibility left.
But the impression that the anchors gave before talking with him was that IK has been targeting different parties from time to time as if he does not know what he is doing.
It seems PML-Q wants to cash traditional anti-PPP vote. I have serious doubt that Choudharies can become another Nawaz Sharif because Mus’s shadow is so big and dark that they have no face of their own.
pakistan does not need a leader. leaders are as dangerous as they may be beneficial. we should move away from this childish state that only a leader, a daddy, can help us out!
pakistan needs democracy and leaders are particularly dangerous for democracy. we need strong political parties, devolution of power to regions, tehsils, with levy-powers and for army to stay in barracks.
leaders are human beings, corruptible, mortal and they die and are killed. so rely on collective institution building, like all other civilised societies of the world that flourished and reformed.
..finally a voice of reason; unfortunately, this concept had been smothered even before the inception of the country; and no lesson was learnt even from its eastern neighbor!
@Amir Hameed
I believe all sane people make decisions by taking into consideration the realities on the ground. In my opinion historically there has been a very close ideological and working relationship between the militry establishment and Mullahs. PPP has a stated position of opposing the two and i believe it still has. By refusing to join APDM ,PPP dastanced itself from the Mullahs and by targetting PMLQ it is attempting to weaken the position of the post uniform Musharraf. Army has never been dislogded by the sheer power of the people and hence the current relevance of path of negotiated settlement between militatry and the politicians. PPP is therefore on its way to achieve the two aforementioned objectives.
Now from PMLN’s perspective the greatest hurdle in its way is Musharraf and PMLQ. Here the two big parties have a confluence of interest. PPP and PMLN have distinct, well defined and non overlapping vote bank therefore in the current circumstances the real opponent of PMLN is not PPP but PMLQ . Therefore it is a struggle to capture this vote bank that is at the heart of animosity between the two PMLs. If Mian sahib comes today most of PMLQ voters and politicians will shift over to PMLN therefore we see the absolute opposition by Musharraf and PMLQ to Mian Nawaz’s return. PPP and BB feel no threat rather in the given circumstances I believe the best bet for Mian sahib is joining hands with BB in elections to throw out PMLQ and not the joining the looser Mullahs.
On the other hand IK has already said that he is going to take a solo flight. My advise for him is to choose his battles carefully and not try to take on everyone else at the same time. I pray he does not fizzles out like Asghar Khan.
I would suggest that everyone who is commenting- please spend some time reading about the causes and dynamics of Revolution in generel and the French and Iranian Revolution in perticular . Then perhaps what is going on might begin to make sense.
Sardar Zulficar Khan Khosa (the old and grey bearded guy) is the only mature and sensible person in this program. I do not know his past history, his performance in government and degree of his corruption (or good virtue of lack of). But I wish we had more of such politicians and have a delightful, frequent presence on the TV.
@RH Shimatoree
I have been hearing about the similarities of pre-French revolution dynamics and Pakistani political dynamics for about last 10 years. I have not studied it yet. Your post is pushing me one step closer to just doing that. Can you point me to a short, concise and authentic source about French Revolution? Would be nice if you start a thread with a summary and suggestion in the forum section of this site. It would be very informative for everyone.
In to-day’s world of Internet and instant information made possible by the likes of Wikepedia and Google- all you have to do is type French Revolution- or Iranina Revolution for that matter and you can get sources brief or detailed as you might wish.
But in short- the main problem in the begining of the French Revolution was a disconnect between the masses-( what was improtant to them)- and the elite .The perception that one day the mob in Paris went to liberate the prisoners at Bastille prison has very little to do with reality. The reality was that for quite sometime the masses were in ferment and slowly over a period of time the fermentation reached a point when the volcanic eruption occured and then continued. The comment that some one somewhere has been mentioning this for 10 years does not in any way belittle the comment. Processes take time and in to-day’s instant perception of the world- the world still goes about at its’ own tempo I do not have enough space here to describe all I can but about Iranian Revolution later.
The Iranian revolution just like the French Revolution occured as a reaction towards injustice dished out to the masses by the elite-( Shah and his cronies) for a long period of time with support of the USA and UK. Once teh mood of the masses changed- they were looking for an ICON or a Leader who in their view was not corrupt and firm. They found him in Khomeini. His messianic persona and the organisational skills and expertise of those around him cpmbined with the mass support of the people completed the initial goal of throwing the Shah out. Once that happened -the unity and well organised religious group came to power. And the greatest stupid mistake-( political)- of the West was to get the Ex-CIA agent Saddam Hussein to attack Iran on the behest of USA and UK and France.
How does the situation in Pakistan compare. Well the elite-( Musharraf and Benaziretc)- are being imposed by the Americans on the masses of Pakistan most of whom hate the West because of what they have done and are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan . All legitimacy of those that are in the pockets of the West-( BB and Mush) is lost. Fazlu has lost his credibility. The only group which still has legitimacy and credibility-( like Khomeini) is the ” Taliban ” like religious groups-( not the Religious Parties which are and have been bogus)- Imran Khan has some but he has no mass appeal as yet. Nawaz Sharif has some credibility as he has refused to deal with Mush and Co :
In the Frontier( my home) these religious people are gaining big time as they are responding to the people’s aspirations- main one being etablishment of Sharia so that they may have justice which they do not get from the establishment. So there is a total disconnect between the elite and the masses just like the French Revolution. Just watch what the Media TV shows talk about day in and day out-( assuming that they represent the elite which they do). Other than Mushtaq Minhas( Bolta Pakista) no one even mentins this issue which is the cause of Waziristan, Swat, Bajaur, Lala Masjid. 90 % of Pakistani hate what the rich and elitist in Lahore and Islamabad represent. They have lost faith in BB, MUSH and their large group of cronies. Also please keep in mind that all political movements-( elite political parties) the leaders are old men. In the French Revolution the average age of the leaders was 28 years. Now also notice that the latest Taliban leader in Swat is Fazalullah who is 32 years old and so are those around him. Baitullah Mehsood is also a young man. The younger ideolagues tend to less compromising and you can imagine what is coming-( at least in the frontier and possibly Blochistan . The soldiers in the army and F.C. are also young and their dreams are the same. What will indicate critical mass will be the day when one of the regiments of the soldiers joins up with the Taliban like groups. This has already happened in Waziristan where 410 soldiers were supposed ly arressted by Baitullah Medsud’s group. The establishment does not want you to know why those soldiers did not fight. So the reolutionary train HAS left the station. Where it goes time will tell but this much is clear- there is no plcae on the train for BB or MUSH
@Amir Hameed: I agree with you about it being the fault of PMLN & Imran khan for including MMA in the alliance. But u have to give credit to people, no matter who they are. PPP back than in may & june was constantly telling on talk shows and press that they could not join apdm or form a alliance in which MMA was included unless the resigned from baluchistan & sarhad government. But back than imran khan was saying “ur ready to sit with mush but not with mma.” We have all seen what benefit imran kahn & pmln got from sitting with MMA. So this has proved that PPP’s decision was right but back than everybody was criticizing it for sitting with MMA. Nawaz sharif should have stayed in ARD, than would have been a more effective aliance.
hi all,
and thanks Admin for uploading it …
show was not as good as it is use t o be.
kashif sounds bored and exausted ….
@Akmal,
we dont need leaders …we need the idea….where to go ????
we need to look for the rite path ,which we ve lost ….
is somebody there to guide us in this darkness????
October 26th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Javed Hashmi should be declared as the permanent head of PML-N.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Ayaz Amir’s prescription to oust Musharraf and co. and establish democracy
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
October 26th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
I think this all damn politics is nothing but a “Noraa Kushti”. Over then 4 years I been watching these talk shows but still same faces we see .. These all anchors are not really honest with their jobs ( how could they be, Anchor needs a job too) .. Nothing honest and Aim Politics but only for Money Money Money ..
October 26th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Please find some sensible people for Pakistan…like Imran Khan and vote for them.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
@ Z Habib
yes pakistan and muslims in general, need a leader who lead them from the front.
you mentioned Imran Khan, but i personally think if Imran khan would be the leader he will be filtered up by itself through this crupt and bad politics. I think a true leader donot need to be forced from outside but it comes from inside itself.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
@Commoner,
I like Ayaz Amir’s analysis. The problem that I see with his approach of all political parties converging with PPP on the agenda of seat adjustment is that this will give PPP look like a saviour of everyone when they really are not. This is the same formula that was behind the COD, APDM and ARD but PPP walked out of it because BB saw the opportunity to grab power. This approach will not fly now because of the bad taste that BB’s move left with other parties. To be honest, I would also blame PML-N, IK, ANP and others for including MMA into the APDM alliance when they knew that Fazlu would only think of himself and would likely betray them all. Some things just never change and Fazlu is among one of them.
October 27th, 2007 at 12:51 am
I was just watching Bolta Pakistan, Oct 26th episode, where the anchors spoke with Imram Khan and asked him why he was opposing Fazlu. IK’s rely was that because Fazlu betrayed APDM by not resigning from the assemblies and also by not desolving the assemblies on time, therefore, if JUI-F stays with APDM then APDM will have no credibility left.
But the impression that the anchors gave before talking with him was that IK has been targeting different parties from time to time as if he does not know what he is doing.
October 27th, 2007 at 1:31 am
It seems PML-Q wants to cash traditional anti-PPP vote. I have serious doubt that Choudharies can become another Nawaz Sharif because Mus’s shadow is so big and dark that they have no face of their own.
October 27th, 2007 at 6:21 am
pakistan does not need a leader. leaders are as dangerous as they may be beneficial. we should move away from this childish state that only a leader, a daddy, can help us out!
pakistan needs democracy and leaders are particularly dangerous for democracy. we need strong political parties, devolution of power to regions, tehsils, with levy-powers and for army to stay in barracks.
leaders are human beings, corruptible, mortal and they die and are killed. so rely on collective institution building, like all other civilised societies of the world that flourished and reformed.
October 27th, 2007 at 6:36 am
@ akmal
..finally a voice of reason; unfortunately, this concept had been smothered even before the inception of the country; and no lesson was learnt even from its eastern neighbor!
October 27th, 2007 at 7:58 am
@Akmal
a very confusing argument. do you really know yourself what you are saying?
leaders built the nations…history is the evidence
October 27th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
@Amir Hameed
I believe all sane people make decisions by taking into consideration the realities on the ground. In my opinion historically there has been a very close ideological and working relationship between the militry establishment and Mullahs. PPP has a stated position of opposing the two and i believe it still has. By refusing to join APDM ,PPP dastanced itself from the Mullahs and by targetting PMLQ it is attempting to weaken the position of the post uniform Musharraf. Army has never been dislogded by the sheer power of the people and hence the current relevance of path of negotiated settlement between militatry and the politicians. PPP is therefore on its way to achieve the two aforementioned objectives.
Now from PMLN’s perspective the greatest hurdle in its way is Musharraf and PMLQ. Here the two big parties have a confluence of interest. PPP and PMLN have distinct, well defined and non overlapping vote bank therefore in the current circumstances the real opponent of PMLN is not PPP but PMLQ . Therefore it is a struggle to capture this vote bank that is at the heart of animosity between the two PMLs. If Mian sahib comes today most of PMLQ voters and politicians will shift over to PMLN therefore we see the absolute opposition by Musharraf and PMLQ to Mian Nawaz’s return. PPP and BB feel no threat rather in the given circumstances I believe the best bet for Mian sahib is joining hands with BB in elections to throw out PMLQ and not the joining the looser Mullahs.
On the other hand IK has already said that he is going to take a solo flight. My advise for him is to choose his battles carefully and not try to take on everyone else at the same time. I pray he does not fizzles out like Asghar Khan.
October 27th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
I would suggest that everyone who is commenting- please spend some time reading about the causes and dynamics of Revolution in generel and the French and Iranian Revolution in perticular . Then perhaps what is going on might begin to make sense.
October 27th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Sardar Zulficar Khan Khosa (the old and grey bearded guy) is the only mature and sensible person in this program. I do not know his past history, his performance in government and degree of his corruption (or good virtue of lack of). But I wish we had more of such politicians and have a delightful, frequent presence on the TV.
@RH Shimatoree
I have been hearing about the similarities of pre-French revolution dynamics and Pakistani political dynamics for about last 10 years. I have not studied it yet. Your post is pushing me one step closer to just doing that. Can you point me to a short, concise and authentic source about French Revolution? Would be nice if you start a thread with a summary and suggestion in the forum section of this site. It would be very informative for everyone.
October 27th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
In to-day’s world of Internet and instant information made possible by the likes of Wikepedia and Google- all you have to do is type French Revolution- or Iranina Revolution for that matter and you can get sources brief or detailed as you might wish.
But in short- the main problem in the begining of the French Revolution was a disconnect between the masses-( what was improtant to them)- and the elite .The perception that one day the mob in Paris went to liberate the prisoners at Bastille prison has very little to do with reality. The reality was that for quite sometime the masses were in ferment and slowly over a period of time the fermentation reached a point when the volcanic eruption occured and then continued. The comment that some one somewhere has been mentioning this for 10 years does not in any way belittle the comment. Processes take time and in to-day’s instant perception of the world- the world still goes about at its’ own tempo I do not have enough space here to describe all I can but about Iranian Revolution later.
October 27th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
The Iranian revolution just like the French Revolution occured as a reaction towards injustice dished out to the masses by the elite-( Shah and his cronies) for a long period of time with support of the USA and UK. Once teh mood of the masses changed- they were looking for an ICON or a Leader who in their view was not corrupt and firm. They found him in Khomeini. His messianic persona and the organisational skills and expertise of those around him cpmbined with the mass support of the people completed the initial goal of throwing the Shah out. Once that happened -the unity and well organised religious group came to power. And the greatest stupid mistake-( political)- of the West was to get the Ex-CIA agent Saddam Hussein to attack Iran on the behest of USA and UK and France.
How does the situation in Pakistan compare. Well the elite-( Musharraf and Benaziretc)- are being imposed by the Americans on the masses of Pakistan most of whom hate the West because of what they have done and are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan . All legitimacy of those that are in the pockets of the West-( BB and Mush) is lost. Fazlu has lost his credibility. The only group which still has legitimacy and credibility-( like Khomeini) is the ” Taliban ” like religious groups-( not the Religious Parties which are and have been bogus)- Imran Khan has some but he has no mass appeal as yet. Nawaz Sharif has some credibility as he has refused to deal with Mush and Co :
In the Frontier( my home) these religious people are gaining big time as they are responding to the people’s aspirations- main one being etablishment of Sharia so that they may have justice which they do not get from the establishment. So there is a total disconnect between the elite and the masses just like the French Revolution. Just watch what the Media TV shows talk about day in and day out-( assuming that they represent the elite which they do). Other than Mushtaq Minhas( Bolta Pakista) no one even mentins this issue which is the cause of Waziristan, Swat, Bajaur, Lala Masjid. 90 % of Pakistani hate what the rich and elitist in Lahore and Islamabad represent. They have lost faith in BB, MUSH and their large group of cronies. Also please keep in mind that all political movements-( elite political parties) the leaders are old men. In the French Revolution the average age of the leaders was 28 years. Now also notice that the latest Taliban leader in Swat is Fazalullah who is 32 years old and so are those around him. Baitullah Mehsood is also a young man. The younger ideolagues tend to less compromising and you can imagine what is coming-( at least in the frontier and possibly Blochistan . The soldiers in the army and F.C. are also young and their dreams are the same. What will indicate critical mass will be the day when one of the regiments of the soldiers joins up with the Taliban like groups. This has already happened in Waziristan where 410 soldiers were supposed ly arressted by Baitullah Medsud’s group. The establishment does not want you to know why those soldiers did not fight. So the reolutionary train HAS left the station. Where it goes time will tell but this much is clear- there is no plcae on the train for BB or MUSH
October 27th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
@Amir Hameed: I agree with you about it being the fault of PMLN & Imran khan for including MMA in the alliance. But u have to give credit to people, no matter who they are. PPP back than in may & june was constantly telling on talk shows and press that they could not join apdm or form a alliance in which MMA was included unless the resigned from baluchistan & sarhad government. But back than imran khan was saying “ur ready to sit with mush but not with mma.” We have all seen what benefit imran kahn & pmln got from sitting with MMA. So this has proved that PPP’s decision was right but back than everybody was criticizing it for sitting with MMA. Nawaz sharif should have stayed in ARD, than would have been a more effective aliance.
October 29th, 2007 at 10:42 am
hi all,
and thanks Admin for uploading it …
show was not as good as it is use t o be.
kashif sounds bored and exausted ….
@Akmal,
we dont need leaders …we need the idea….where to go ????
we need to look for the rite path ,which we ve lost ….
is somebody there to guide us in this darkness????
November 4th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
The ???? EVEN NOW will not rule out a deal with Mush…
http://www.easybourse.com/Website/dynamic/News.php?NewsID=332606
November 14th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
trixie teen movies…
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