I really like Mustaq Minhas. In an Islamic country you cannot stop any Muslim to come in, otherwise it is not an Islamic country.
We have to either say that Pakistan is NOT an Islamic country or All Muslims should be welcome.
Israel is one example of this model. They has so small land but still they welcome all the Jews.
I would disagree with your logic. Israel is occupying land and needs more ‘goondas’ to counter Muslims. Israel is begging jews worldwide to come. Its mainly because there are only a few million jews worldwide. Israel needs more jews in order to steal more land and make settlement.
An Islamic country doesn’t mean inviting whole world, it is rather accommodating local Muslims and supporting other Muslims. Take an example of your own home, if you are Pakistani doesn’t mean every Pakistani has right to come to your bedroom and live there. But yes they have special relationship and support from you.
Personally I support a western democracy keeping in view of majority Muslim needs.
Great debate, Pakistan is the Noah’s arch for every Muslim. Muslim population in British India was the reason for the existence of Pakistan and not the other way around. We have enough land and people’s hospitality to accommodate Muslims where ever they are. A western democracy does not mean “people’s representation
Wow I totally agree with Mushtaq Minhas. Asking for Shariah law has become such a big crime under Musharraf, that whoever asks for it is killed. We seriously need to get rid of this Zionist agent Musharraf so we can have an Islamic state not just in name but in reality.
And Kami your comparison is totally flawed. When the Prophet and his companions migrated to Madinah they were even kept in the homes of the ansar. same way if our Muslim brothers are persecuted in some other country they have every right to come and live here as long as the inhabitants welcome them. this is after all an Islamic country even if only in name. there are no boundaries in Islam, all Muslim lands are one, and there is no difference between a Pakistani or an Arab or a Chechen, we are all brothers.
and secondly there are no foreigners there, these are all local people, we heard the same crap about foreigners and hostages being in the Lal Masjid, in the end it all turned out to be propaganda. this government is pure evil, and Musharraf is a Zionist agent, we need to get rid of him.
Everybody is talking about the writ of the state. I wonder if state’s only responsibilty is to enforce its writ? What about providing jobs, health facilities, education and most of all justice. Molana Fazlullah might be wrong in running a parallel justice system but is the government doing enough to provide the justice that he is providing, as mentioned by prince Aurang Zeb (son of Waali-e-Swat) the other day. Isn’t it tantamount to saying, “you Mr. Fazlullah, must not do what we as state cant’t do”. The government never bothered to address the problems people have and in utter desparation when the try to resolve their problems themselves, then troups and gunships are sent over to kill their children and destory whatever meagre livelihood they have.
Secondly, “beheaded bodies” is mentioned continuosly on these channels. Are the so called analysts so ignorant or they are faking it? Those beheaded policemen are local swatis and its unimaginable that Fazlullah’s men would kill locals. That simply doesn’t help them. Don’t you see the foreign involvement here?
It’s Musharraf’s pathetic policies that we are paying for. Until Mush decided to help the US invade Afghanistan, only our eastern borders had to be watched on. Now there are dozens of Indian consulates in Afghanistan, specially in the areas close to Pak borders. They brought the war to those areas of our country where they couldn’ve gone in their wildest dreams.This is the fruit of “sub sey pehlay Pakistan” policy.
Musharraf and his elightened moderation has brought nothing but hell to Pakistan. Never have we seen death and destruction on such scale, and that too by using our own army against our own people. His loyalties lie in America and he doesnt care about Muslims dying. We need to return to Islam, its about time we get rid of these tinpot dictators taking orders from America.
SC Tuesday ordered the government to allow Nawaz Sharif to return home, saying its deportation of the former prime minister in September violated an earlier court ruling. Hundreds of Sharif’s supporters clapped and shouted slogans against military ruler President Pervez Musharraf outside the Supreme Court after the move by chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. The judge also accused current premier Shaukat Aziz of disobeying the Supreme Court’s orders when Sharif was put onto a plane to Saudi Arabia on September 10, hours after ending his seven-year exile. Chaudhry, a thorn in the government’s side since Musharraf tried to sack him earlier this year, had ruled on August 23 that Sharif had an “inalienable right” to come home and told authorities not to hinder him.
i am preety sure that mush is not a muslim.we should try to explore wheather he is a muslim or qadiani agent.whoever wants the sharia he is the biggest enemy i think people living in west can freely talk about religeon than in pakistan.
Even in west people talk about bush wrong policies but mush is happy to do everything whatever usa tells them.
I think Good Political Aalams in pakistan try to know weather mush is really a muslim or not bcz he fully favoured chinese massage centers in islamabad,some politician got bar license in islamab.and now fashion shows and cat walks in pakistan.A true muslim cannot bear it bcz then what is the difference between a muslim or non muslim country.
Atif:
Pakistan is not Noah’s arch for ever bengali, bihar and lucknwai muslim. Pakistan was created because the local (pashtun, baloch, sindhi, punjabi and the people of northern areas) voted for its creation and we owe nothing to indian muslims. We had not requested them to create a country for us that we could live here peacefully where we were already living and more or less were the ruler of our own fate.
World Jewish Council invites its stooges. Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld and people like Salman Rushdie are invited and given peace awards. Funnily, they invited Musharraf few years ago and gave him peace award for speaking in favour of Israel. That says a lot about Mush. Now he shares award with Salman Rushdie.
Musharraf doesn’t represent us. It is generals that don’t allow BB or NS to have an indedependant foreign policy and only allows politician to do corruption/crimes so that they can be blackmailed later(Chaudhries & MQM are examples). We have right to reject BB or NS, not a gun wielding general.
In the longer run, only peaceful campaigners will be winners (like Chief Justice).
General & his 40 thieves including MQM should remember what Hazrat Issa (A.S.) said: ‘Those who live by sword (now T.T.), will be cut down by sword’.
I know you want to start a debate in which people condemn Indian Muslims. People of Pakistan respect Mohajirs who sacrificed for Pakistan.
These Mohajirs were both Urdu and Punjabi speaking and maybe more as well. They are even bigger Pakistanis than us. The Indian Muslims who chose to remain in India, have our well wishes only. We welcomed them for many years after independence to ensure that no one is forced out.
Its only MQM supporters who write things like ‘there must be a Punjabi PM’ in the hope of exposing others but what they are doing is exposing themselves.
I am sorry that Altaf Hussain is trying to confuse MQM supporters with his anti Pakistan rubbish. In Delhi he begged India to forgive his people and accept them back.
I hope patriotic Mohajirs will teach him a lesson for insulting their fore fathers. I pray that Imran free people of Karachi from these gangs. Inshallah
ISLAMABAD ( 2007-10-30 17:33:39 ) :
Chief Justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry on Tuesday ordered the government to allow Nawaz Sharif to return home, saying its deportation of the former Prime Minister in September violated an earlier court ruling.
Hundreds of Sharif’s supporters clapped and shouted slogans against President Pervez Musharraf outside the Supreme Court after the move by chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry.
The judge also accused current premier Shaukat Aziz of disobeying the Supreme Court’s orders when Sharif was put onto a plane to Saudi Arabia on September 10, hours after ending his seven-year exile.
Chaudhry, a thorn in the government’s side since Musharraf tried to sack him earlier this year, had ruled on August 23 that Sharif had an “inalienable right” to come home and told authorities not to hinder him.
“The judgment passed by this court is very much intact… and is required to be implemented in letter and spirit,” Chaudhry told the court as he adjourned a hearing on appeals against the deportation until November 8.
“There was a clear-cut violation of our judgment.”
Sharif’s party said earlier this month that he would make a fresh attempt to come home in November, following the return from exile on October 18 of his political rival and fellow former PM Benazir Bhutto.
The chief justice earlier expressed anger that in the days just before Sharif was sent packing, “steps were being taken to violate the orders of this court by the prime minister (Aziz).”
The court received a written statement from the top official in the foreign ministry, Riaz Mohammad Khan, saying that he received “verbal instruction” from Aziz for a special aircraft to be waiting at Islamabad on September 10.
The chairman of Pakistan International Airlines, Zafar Khan, also said in a statement that he was given orders to make arrangements for a “VVIP” flight to Jeddah in Saudi Arabia.
Chaudhry told the government attorney general, Malik Muhammad Qayyum, to tell him “whom should the court summon for prosecution” over the apparent contempt of court caused by Sharif’s deportation.
The attorney general said that he needed time to discuss the matter “at the highest level.” Asked by the judge if that meant Aziz, he replied: “Even at a higher level than him.”
A mini revolution has already started and it can not be stopped via force. If a proper strategy and means are not used then it will spread into parts of the country. Unfortunately, I do not see anyone in the present setup who has the “will” or the vision to properly address this situation and stop it from further aggrivating. These circumstances require a “true” national reconciliation, not the bloody NRO type of one-way ordinance that was designed to helps the corrupts.
With all due respect and I don’t want to hurt any feelings here, if we look at history we see that when ever religion became the basis/inspiration for government then the whole system gets screwed up and eventually people revolt against it ( e.g Medieval Europe) .If we look at the challenges we face today, we can see that only a system based on logic and rationality can solve the problems.
Religion should be used to enrich ourselves spiritually but we have to be realistic on its usefullness in running a country in today’s globalised world. A lot of other countries who are not very religious or who don’t have a state religion have made tremendous progress, so this means that progress comes by working hard and competent leadership not just by adopting one religion or the other.
Also assuming that we do implement sharia in our country, who will decide which sect we follow??? Wahabi,Shia,sunni etc. This will cause tremendous internal strife.
Religion should be kept at a personal level between man and god and should not be used to solve problems that it does not have answers too.
Musharraf is a foreign agent. His home is ready in Boston. He wants to create Iraq like situation in Pakistan so that
anti-Pakistan forces can neutralize Pakistan’s Nuclear deterrant.
ON THE SUPREME COURT’s LATEST CONTEMPT OF COURT VERDICT
We are used to calling countries with several names including: (a)fragile states; (b)failed states; (c) terrorist states, etc. Add to this list now a GANGSTER STATE–with blatant lawlessness sponsored at the highest levels. I would commend the CJP decision ONLY when the Prime Minister and his accomplices are arrested and given the maximum tenable punishment!
I agree with you that Islam was the uniting force for Arabs and they created an empire out of it, but you must remember that was several hundred years ago. In today’s interconnected complex world I don’t think that would work.
Also I agree with you that there is no problem with religion and that there are people who abuse it. That proves my point of keeping religion as a personal thing so that all that counts is merit and competence and not how ‘religious’ a person appears.
Sehba Farid’s father name is Ghulam Ghaus Farid. Once I met somone who claimed to be very close to their family told me that they are converted Muslims. Mr Gulam Faried use to work for minstry of information and broadcasting. I dont know how much of it is true but as they converted back to islam I dont see anything wrong with it. Musharraf himself is a moderate muslim or in simple words “munafik”. Most of his life he studied in christian (St. Patrick’s School “Karachi” & and some Christian college from Karachi)
Had real Sharia laws been implemented during the cruel dictator Amir ul Momineen General Zia ul Haq, he was first one to have his hand chopped off. Same is true for today’s judges who are for hire. Their head will be the first to go.
I understand and respect your emotions towards Islam. But remember that every religion teaches a complete way of life.
Also due to the diversity of sects with in Islam it will be extremely difficult to come to a consensus on the sharia laws. Who will decide which sect is right? This will lead to even more bloodshed and internal strife.
@baig
I respect your views.
I think no other relgion except Islam gives complete way of life. That is why it is called as “Deen” not a religion.
Quran-e-Kareem talks about the politics of conflicts between two groups/countries, it talks about the fundamental of economics. It talks about the even distribution of wealth in a society, and many more which I don’t know.
Yeah, there are several sects, but we all believe in one Allah and one Rasool (SAW), rest are secondary issues which can be solved through consensus. If our intentions are right, Allah will help us right away.
I am not a voter/fan of MMA, but atleast Shia, Suni, Wahabi, Deobandi or what ever are grouped in one party.
Quaid-e-Azam once replied to a news reporter that Rasoolullah (SAW) was neither a Shia nor a Suni but a Muslim. Let us be Muslim first.
@baig
Islam is the only religion with full code of life and this is the difference between islam and other religions.
sects cannot create bloodshed. yes they may create points of discussions… if religion becomes part of all of our lives including for educated class and not just left to maulvis
You make a good point about reaching decisions by consensus, but if you think about it, there is a tremendous hurdle if you are to reach a consensus on some religious law.
For example one sect might have complete faith in doing something one way and another sect might have some other belief. Both will base their arguments on their respective faiths and not on anything which you can really debate about( eg facts,figures,reports etc.).
Also if you research about any other religion, you will find out that they also provide the followers a guide on how to live. Otherwise if that wasn’t the case then other religions in the world would just die off and Islam would be the only religion.
Quote:
_________
Asking for Shariah law has become such a big crime under Musharraf, that whoever asks for it is killed.
_________
In a civilized state people don’t ‘Ask’ with guns. When a group demand some thing by armed methods that is called mutiny. Quran called Fitna a worst cime. In islam death penality is only for two crimes first is murder and second is Fitna.
Second all militant movements belong to a minority sect of Muslims. Their brand of Sharia is not acceptable to Pakistani nation as well as whole Islamic world. Pakistan cannot afford groups of a particular sect take over the country. This is a recipe of civil war.
I agree with Nusrat that Mush allowed this menace for years to develop. There is a saying ‘nip the evil in the bed’.
As we know in Islam interest is strictly forbidden. But in today’s world if you want to do business then you have to take a loan. What will the government do in this case if it has to borrow money( just like any other country) but it cannot borrow from banks because it is not allowed to pay interest due to sharia laws?
P.S. I don’t mean to offend/lookdown on or cause any disrespect to Islamic laws, I am just posing a hypothetical question.
This Minhas guy is a fanatic. He attributed very wrong and objectionable comments to Quaid and Pakistan Movement. Pakistan was never made for the Muslims of the world or an Islamic state like Taliban. Even migration was planned for only Punjab and Bengal because the states were being divided. Migration from Bihar, UP an other states was illegal. Open policy will bring disaster for this country. Any one can come in by wearing a cap and beard. This guy lost all respect frm my heart.
@baig
my understanding is that IF you have to borrow money (for essential needs like buying a house or business) you may have to pay interest. what would be the impact of 0% interest rate + free market - which all european economists accept but dont put in practice. But interest is a long debate ….
in UK the biggest growing market (including HSBC bank, Barclays, Merril Lynch etc) is Islamic Financing products. all of these are backed by the FSA.
@ baig
Atleast Quran provides us a boundary of freedom and asks not to transgress that boundary. Now we are allowed to sit wherever we like in that boundary.
Now if so called Sunis and Shias sit together, they can do Ijtehad/consensus and make modern laws, provided they are not crossing the boundries drawn by Quran. Yeah you are true that it looks very simple in writing but practically it is quite difficult but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for the betterment. I think the process has already started like people are discussing on TVs and forums which may one day will make a force.
As Malik said that if the dialogue is in the hands of educated class then we need not to worry.
Quote:
_________
Islam is the only religion with full code of life and this is the difference between islam and other religions.
_________
A very good slogan. But where is that code? I have not seen any ’single code of life’ that all Muslims and their Mullas agree today or ever agreed in the past. Muslims cannot even agree on single day of Eid. In one city (e.g. my Greater Toronto) we had Eid on three different days. Code of Life? Dil Kay Khush Rakhnay Ko Ghalib Yeh Khayal Acha Hay.
Unbelievable. I simply can not believe a good channel like Aaj gives these 2 morons an hour long show. They preach nothing but filth and extremism. Everything out of their mouth is lies and pure non-sense. Hell they even try to justify these terrorists in Swat.
Where is the general public and why dont they stand up against these suicide-bomber supporters (especially that Mushtaq fella). People like these are promised the lowest dungeons in Hell.
To decide whether we want ‘Islamic law’ or some other basis for laws(like logic,reason etc.) the best solution is to vote and see what the majority decides. One thing that is guaranteed is that violence and rebellion against the state is not the answer.
Thanks to jojo and malik for having a decent civilized discussion with me.
Quote:
_________
in UK the biggest growing market (including HSBC bank, Barclays, Merril Lynch etc) is Islamic Financing products. all of these are backed by the FSA.
__________
Interestngly all such Islamic schemes are charging markup that is 2-3% highier to regular mortgage rate. All banks love to finance fools who want to pay 3% more. You know a friend of mine is paying $8000 a year more to bank in comparison to regular mortgage. Just beause the bank call it a ‘Islamic’? In UK and Nort America many Indian Hindus are running ‘Islamic Mortgage’ busnesses and making millions. Baywaqoofi ki bhi koi hadd hoti hay.
I have seen Islamic banking in middle east and Pakistan. It is as Islamic as a circumcized Hindu.
Quote:
_________
To decide whether we want ‘Islamic law’ or some other basis for laws(like logic,reason etc.) the best solution is to vote and see what the majority decides.
_________
What about the results of all elections from Pakistan movementtill today. In all free elections people of Pakistan rejected so-called Islamists completely. These people themselves have parties based on sect (JI, JUP, JI, Nifaz Fiqa Jaafria, Ahle-Hadeeth) are all sectarian parties. Each of these parties has many factions. Pakitan’s constitution is Islamic and no law contrary to Islam can be made. Then waht these militants want in name of Islam? The answer is simple they want supermacy of their particular sect.
Are some people realy hungry for a bloody civil war?
Yeah, there are several sects, but we all believe in one Allah and one Rasool (SAW), rest are secondary issues which can be solved through consensus.
_______–
Bhai the ‘devil is in detail’. Consenses never happened in whole history of Islam. This never happend in time of peace and never happend at time of (civil) war.
We are a nation who almost wiped out All-e-Rasool from the face of earth but still offer Darood on it dozens of times a day.
@saqib
Ok, according to you, if there is never been a consensus, but atleast the ethics of disagreements were followed among the Muslims.
I would suggest you to read a book by Dr. Yusuf Al Qardawi “The Ethics of disagreement in Islam”. He starts from Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) to Midevial period, and sited several disagreements among the Muslims but atleast the ethics were followed.
ok seriously theres no use replying to people start calling others extremists fanatics and terrorists as soon as someone talks about islamic laws and jihad (a taboo in their world)
jojo,
regarding ethics of disagreement were only followed when the state was not partisan and state didn’t allow any group to form their own armies. On all other occasions sword was the main decision making force. I have not read this book. Is this available on web?
i read a news article in the times of india. Although it is an indian article;however, some of the points might be right, regarding the situation of pak army. It may be overhyped; nevertheless we should read it.
again, there are some people who are outsiders, majority of the ppl over there are pakistanis, this is my opinion. this government just wants to kill all the ppl without any talks. i mean wtf, they will kill soldiers if u try to kill them….ISNT THIS A LOGIC? is it that hard to understand? this terror will soon spread all over the country if they dont start talking with them!
Shaukat Aziz could be immune from contempt proceedings
Pakistan’s top judge has accused Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz of violating a Supreme Court judgement.
Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry criticised Mr Aziz while hearing a contempt case against him and several senior government officials.
He said Mr Aziz had arranged for the immediate deportation of former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif upon his return to the country in September.
Earlier the court said Mr Sharif had an inalienable right to return from exile.
Mr Chaudhry has in recent years passed several judgements against the government.
President Pervez Musharraf tried to sack him last March, provoking a storm of protests from Pakistan’s legal community and opposition parties.
Nawaz Sharif was deposed by Gen Musharraf in a 1999 coup and went into exile the following year.
He flew into Islamabad on 10 September, after the Supreme Court ruled in August that he was entitled to return.
But hours after landing he was flown back to exile in Saudi Arabia.
‘Prepare plane’
“By 6 September arrangements were being made to violate the order of this court… by the prime minister,” Chief Justice Chaudhry said on Tuesday.
Mr Sharif was deported hours after landing in Islamabad
He was speaking after hearing evidence from the senior official of the Foreign Ministry and the chairman of Pakistan International Airlines.
They said they had been ordered to have a plane ready on 10 September to fly an important person from Islamabad to Jeddah in Saudi Arabia.
It is not clear if Prime Minister Aziz would be immune from prosecution for contempt.
The offence can carry up to six months imprisonment, the Associated Press news agency reports.
Judge Chaudhry said that his August ruling on Mr Sharif’s “inalienable right” to return to Pakistan “is very much intact… and is required to be implemented in letter and spirit”.
The case has been adjourned until 8 November.
Mr Sharif says he will return again to Pakistan before parliamentary elections expected to take place in January.
LATEST FROM BBC NEWS:
Last Updated: Tuesday, 30 October 2007, 17:51 GMT
Pakistan premier ‘broke the law’
Shaukat Aziz could be immune from contempt proceedings
Pakistan’s top judge has accused Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz of violating a Supreme Court judgement.
Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry criticised Mr Aziz while hearing a contempt case against him and several senior government officials.
i have seen everyone here commenting n disagree with each other. If we bunch of educated people cant stand on onepoint then dont expect anything from Illeterate Pakistanis. I want people who gives solution, Rather critisizig provide slutions of problem. i m sure we all here dont know any reaities on Grounds. cauze everyone here is out of pakistan
October 30th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
I really like Mustaq Minhas. In an Islamic country you cannot stop any Muslim to come in, otherwise it is not an Islamic country.
We have to either say that Pakistan is NOT an Islamic country or All Muslims should be welcome.
Israel is one example of this model. They has so small land but still they welcome all the Jews.
October 30th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
@ someone
I would disagree with your logic. Israel is occupying land and needs more ‘goondas’ to counter Muslims. Israel is begging jews worldwide to come. Its mainly because there are only a few million jews worldwide. Israel needs more jews in order to steal more land and make settlement.
An Islamic country doesn’t mean inviting whole world, it is rather accommodating local Muslims and supporting other Muslims. Take an example of your own home, if you are Pakistani doesn’t mean every Pakistani has right to come to your bedroom and live there. But yes they have special relationship and support from you.
Personally I support a western democracy keeping in view of majority Muslim needs.
October 30th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Great debate, Pakistan is the Noah’s arch for every Muslim. Muslim population in British India was the reason for the existence of Pakistan and not the other way around. We have enough land and people’s hospitality to accommodate Muslims where ever they are. A western democracy does not mean “people’s representation
October 30th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Wow I totally agree with Mushtaq Minhas. Asking for Shariah law has become such a big crime under Musharraf, that whoever asks for it is killed. We seriously need to get rid of this Zionist agent Musharraf so we can have an Islamic state not just in name but in reality.
And Kami your comparison is totally flawed. When the Prophet and his companions migrated to Madinah they were even kept in the homes of the ansar. same way if our Muslim brothers are persecuted in some other country they have every right to come and live here as long as the inhabitants welcome them. this is after all an Islamic country even if only in name. there are no boundaries in Islam, all Muslim lands are one, and there is no difference between a Pakistani or an Arab or a Chechen, we are all brothers.
and secondly there are no foreigners there, these are all local people, we heard the same crap about foreigners and hostages being in the Lal Masjid, in the end it all turned out to be propaganda. this government is pure evil, and Musharraf is a Zionist agent, we need to get rid of him.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Everybody is talking about the writ of the state. I wonder if state’s only responsibilty is to enforce its writ? What about providing jobs, health facilities, education and most of all justice. Molana Fazlullah might be wrong in running a parallel justice system but is the government doing enough to provide the justice that he is providing, as mentioned by prince Aurang Zeb (son of Waali-e-Swat) the other day. Isn’t it tantamount to saying, “you Mr. Fazlullah, must not do what we as state cant’t do”. The government never bothered to address the problems people have and in utter desparation when the try to resolve their problems themselves, then troups and gunships are sent over to kill their children and destory whatever meagre livelihood they have.
Secondly, “beheaded bodies” is mentioned continuosly on these channels. Are the so called analysts so ignorant or they are faking it? Those beheaded policemen are local swatis and its unimaginable that Fazlullah’s men would kill locals. That simply doesn’t help them. Don’t you see the foreign involvement here?
It’s Musharraf’s pathetic policies that we are paying for. Until Mush decided to help the US invade Afghanistan, only our eastern borders had to be watched on. Now there are dozens of Indian consulates in Afghanistan, specially in the areas close to Pak borders. They brought the war to those areas of our country where they couldn’ve gone in their wildest dreams.This is the fruit of “sub sey pehlay Pakistan” policy.
Shame on Musharraf and drawing room analysts.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Musharraf and his elightened moderation has brought nothing but hell to Pakistan. Never have we seen death and destruction on such scale, and that too by using our own army against our own people. His loyalties lie in America and he doesnt care about Muslims dying. We need to return to Islam, its about time we get rid of these tinpot dictators taking orders from America.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
SC orders govt to let Nawaz Sharif return
SC Tuesday ordered the government to allow Nawaz Sharif to return home, saying its deportation of the former prime minister in September violated an earlier court ruling. Hundreds of Sharif’s supporters clapped and shouted slogans against military ruler President Pervez Musharraf outside the Supreme Court after the move by chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. The judge also accused current premier Shaukat Aziz of disobeying the Supreme Court’s orders when Sharif was put onto a plane to Saudi Arabia on September 10, hours after ending his seven-year exile. Chaudhry, a thorn in the government’s side since Musharraf tried to sack him earlier this year, had ruled on August 23 that Sharif had an “inalienable right” to come home and told authorities not to hinder him.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Bolta Pakistan is the most interesting program in this website.
@ Traffic and Jack, I second both of you.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Pakistanis in London need to start protesting daily outside the Saudi consulate, condemning them for kidnapping a democratic leader.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
i am preety sure that mush is not a muslim.we should try to explore wheather he is a muslim or qadiani agent.whoever wants the sharia he is the biggest enemy i think people living in west can freely talk about religeon than in pakistan.
Even in west people talk about bush wrong policies but mush is happy to do everything whatever usa tells them.
I think Good Political Aalams in pakistan try to know weather mush is really a muslim or not bcz he fully favoured chinese massage centers in islamabad,some politician got bar license in islamab.and now fashion shows and cat walks in pakistan.A true muslim cannot bear it bcz then what is the difference between a muslim or non muslim country.
guys correct me if i m wrong?
October 30th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Atif:
Pakistan is not Noah’s arch for ever bengali, bihar and lucknwai muslim. Pakistan was created because the local (pashtun, baloch, sindhi, punjabi and the people of northern areas) voted for its creation and we owe nothing to indian muslims. We had not requested them to create a country for us that we could live here peacefully where we were already living and more or less were the ruler of our own fate.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
World Jewish Council invites its stooges. Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld and people like Salman Rushdie are invited and given peace awards. Funnily, they invited Musharraf few years ago and gave him peace award for speaking in favour of Israel. That says a lot about Mush. Now he shares award with Salman Rushdie.
Musharraf doesn’t represent us. It is generals that don’t allow BB or NS to have an indedependant foreign policy and only allows politician to do corruption/crimes so that they can be blackmailed later(Chaudhries & MQM are examples). We have right to reject BB or NS, not a gun wielding general.
In the longer run, only peaceful campaigners will be winners (like Chief Justice).
General & his 40 thieves including MQM should remember what Hazrat Issa (A.S.) said: ‘Those who live by sword (now T.T.), will be cut down by sword’.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
@ Wali
I know you want to start a debate in which people condemn Indian Muslims. People of Pakistan respect Mohajirs who sacrificed for Pakistan.
These Mohajirs were both Urdu and Punjabi speaking and maybe more as well. They are even bigger Pakistanis than us. The Indian Muslims who chose to remain in India, have our well wishes only. We welcomed them for many years after independence to ensure that no one is forced out.
Its only MQM supporters who write things like ‘there must be a Punjabi PM’ in the hope of exposing others but what they are doing is exposing themselves.
I am sorry that Altaf Hussain is trying to confuse MQM supporters with his anti Pakistan rubbish. In Delhi he begged India to forgive his people and accept them back.
I hope patriotic Mohajirs will teach him a lesson for insulting their fore fathers. I pray that Imran free people of Karachi from these gangs. Inshallah
October 30th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
The latest on AAJ TV
SC directs govt to let Nawaz return
ISLAMABAD ( 2007-10-30 17:33:39 ) :
Chief Justice of Pakistan Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry on Tuesday ordered the government to allow Nawaz Sharif to return home, saying its deportation of the former Prime Minister in September violated an earlier court ruling.
Hundreds of Sharif’s supporters clapped and shouted slogans against President Pervez Musharraf outside the Supreme Court after the move by chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry.
The judge also accused current premier Shaukat Aziz of disobeying the Supreme Court’s orders when Sharif was put onto a plane to Saudi Arabia on September 10, hours after ending his seven-year exile.
Chaudhry, a thorn in the government’s side since Musharraf tried to sack him earlier this year, had ruled on August 23 that Sharif had an “inalienable right” to come home and told authorities not to hinder him.
“The judgment passed by this court is very much intact… and is required to be implemented in letter and spirit,” Chaudhry told the court as he adjourned a hearing on appeals against the deportation until November 8.
“There was a clear-cut violation of our judgment.”
Sharif’s party said earlier this month that he would make a fresh attempt to come home in November, following the return from exile on October 18 of his political rival and fellow former PM Benazir Bhutto.
The chief justice earlier expressed anger that in the days just before Sharif was sent packing, “steps were being taken to violate the orders of this court by the prime minister (Aziz).”
The court received a written statement from the top official in the foreign ministry, Riaz Mohammad Khan, saying that he received “verbal instruction” from Aziz for a special aircraft to be waiting at Islamabad on September 10.
The chairman of Pakistan International Airlines, Zafar Khan, also said in a statement that he was given orders to make arrangements for a “VVIP” flight to Jeddah in Saudi Arabia.
Chaudhry told the government attorney general, Malik Muhammad Qayyum, to tell him “whom should the court summon for prosecution” over the apparent contempt of court caused by Sharif’s deportation.
The attorney general said that he needed time to discuss the matter “at the highest level.” Asked by the judge if that meant Aziz, he replied: “Even at a higher level than him.”
October 30th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
@Vicky
i understand that Mush was born to a sunni muslim family but Sehba Mush was born to Qadiani parents.
October 30th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
or should i have said Sehba Bush
October 30th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
A mini revolution has already started and it can not be stopped via force. If a proper strategy and means are not used then it will spread into parts of the country. Unfortunately, I do not see anyone in the present setup who has the “will” or the vision to properly address this situation and stop it from further aggrivating. These circumstances require a “true” national reconciliation, not the bloody NRO type of one-way ordinance that was designed to helps the corrupts.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
mr.Talat..i dont know why ..but i feel like ..you bein brain washed by establishment…coz there is no issue of taliban there…
October 30th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
With all due respect and I don’t want to hurt any feelings here, if we look at history we see that when ever religion became the basis/inspiration for government then the whole system gets screwed up and eventually people revolt against it ( e.g Medieval Europe) .If we look at the challenges we face today, we can see that only a system based on logic and rationality can solve the problems.
Religion should be used to enrich ourselves spiritually but we have to be realistic on its usefullness in running a country in today’s globalised world. A lot of other countries who are not very religious or who don’t have a state religion have made tremendous progress, so this means that progress comes by working hard and competent leadership not just by adopting one religion or the other.
Also assuming that we do implement sharia in our country, who will decide which sect we follow??? Wahabi,Shia,sunni etc. This will cause tremendous internal strife.
Religion should be kept at a personal level between man and god and should not be used to solve problems that it does not have answers too.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Musharraf is a foreign agent. His home is ready in Boston. He wants to create Iraq like situation in Pakistan so that
anti-Pakistan forces can neutralize Pakistan’s Nuclear deterrant.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
@ baig
Arabs became a world power because of Religion. Before that they were nothing.
The problem is not Religion but its with the people who use it and abuse it.
Socities with not religion have destroyed their own social fabric.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
ON THE SUPREME COURT’s LATEST CONTEMPT OF COURT VERDICT
We are used to calling countries with several names including: (a)fragile states; (b)failed states; (c) terrorist states, etc. Add to this list now a GANGSTER STATE–with blatant lawlessness sponsored at the highest levels. I would commend the CJP decision ONLY when the Prime Minister and his accomplices are arrested and given the maximum tenable punishment!
October 30th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
@ Ali
I agree with you that Islam was the uniting force for Arabs and they created an empire out of it, but you must remember that was several hundred years ago. In today’s interconnected complex world I don’t think that would work.
Also I agree with you that there is no problem with religion and that there are people who abuse it. That proves my point of keeping religion as a personal thing so that all that counts is merit and competence and not how ‘religious’ a person appears.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Sehba Farid’s father name is Ghulam Ghaus Farid. Once I met somone who claimed to be very close to their family told me that they are converted Muslims. Mr Gulam Faried use to work for minstry of information and broadcasting. I dont know how much of it is true but as they converted back to islam I dont see anything wrong with it. Musharraf himself is a moderate muslim or in simple words “munafik”. Most of his life he studied in christian (St. Patrick’s School “Karachi” & and some Christian college from Karachi)
October 30th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
I think Revolution has already started. Just wait few more years and Inshallah whole Pakistan will be talking about Shariah Laws.
October 30th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
@Salman Ahmad
Insha’Allah
October 30th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
@ baig
Islam is way of life. It cannot be kept only as a ritual.
Read the Quran and its laws. Allah has asked us to lead life according to HIS laws.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Pro Musharraf user should read the latest edition of NEWSWEEK.
This clearly shows the YAHUDI dominated media and politicians in USA cannot stand a nuclear Pakistan and are trying everything to create havoc here.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/57485
Muhsharraf and BB are clearly aiding these enemies of Pakistan.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
The leaders of Sharabi, Zani, dishonest and dealers of Riba (USURY) nation like Pakistan will always get rulers like Musharraf and BB.
When we will become like Ali bin Abu-Talib (RA) then a just man like Omar bin Al Kattab (RA) will become our ruler.
This is the truth. plz accept it.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
Had real Sharia laws been implemented during the cruel dictator Amir ul Momineen General Zia ul Haq, he was first one to have his hand chopped off. Same is true for today’s judges who are for hire. Their head will be the first to go.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
@ Ali
I understand and respect your emotions towards Islam. But remember that every religion teaches a complete way of life.
Also due to the diversity of sects with in Islam it will be extremely difficult to come to a consensus on the sharia laws. Who will decide which sect is right? This will lead to even more bloodshed and internal strife.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
@baig
I respect your views.
I think no other relgion except Islam gives complete way of life. That is why it is called as “Deen” not a religion.
Quran-e-Kareem talks about the politics of conflicts between two groups/countries, it talks about the fundamental of economics. It talks about the even distribution of wealth in a society, and many more which I don’t know.
Yeah, there are several sects, but we all believe in one Allah and one Rasool (SAW), rest are secondary issues which can be solved through consensus. If our intentions are right, Allah will help us right away.
I am not a voter/fan of MMA, but atleast Shia, Suni, Wahabi, Deobandi or what ever are grouped in one party.
Quaid-e-Azam once replied to a news reporter that Rasoolullah (SAW) was neither a Shia nor a Suni but a Muslim. Let us be Muslim first.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
@baig
Islam is the only religion with full code of life and this is the difference between islam and other religions.
sects cannot create bloodshed. yes they may create points of discussions… if religion becomes part of all of our lives including for educated class and not just left to maulvis
October 30th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
@ jojo
You make a good point about reaching decisions by consensus, but if you think about it, there is a tremendous hurdle if you are to reach a consensus on some religious law.
For example one sect might have complete faith in doing something one way and another sect might have some other belief. Both will base their arguments on their respective faiths and not on anything which you can really debate about( eg facts,figures,reports etc.).
Also if you research about any other religion, you will find out that they also provide the followers a guide on how to live. Otherwise if that wasn’t the case then other religions in the world would just die off and Islam would be the only religion.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Quote:
_________
Asking for Shariah law has become such a big crime under Musharraf, that whoever asks for it is killed.
_________
In a civilized state people don’t ‘Ask’ with guns. When a group demand some thing by armed methods that is called mutiny. Quran called Fitna a worst cime. In islam death penality is only for two crimes first is murder and second is Fitna.
Second all militant movements belong to a minority sect of Muslims. Their brand of Sharia is not acceptable to Pakistani nation as well as whole Islamic world. Pakistan cannot afford groups of a particular sect take over the country. This is a recipe of civil war.
I agree with Nusrat that Mush allowed this menace for years to develop. There is a saying ‘nip the evil in the bed’.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
@malik
Please answer the following question.
As we know in Islam interest is strictly forbidden. But in today’s world if you want to do business then you have to take a loan. What will the government do in this case if it has to borrow money( just like any other country) but it cannot borrow from banks because it is not allowed to pay interest due to sharia laws?
P.S. I don’t mean to offend/lookdown on or cause any disrespect to Islamic laws, I am just posing a hypothetical question.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
@baig
i think you summed it up in your last sentence…..Yes at the end ‘islam would be the only religion’ left
October 30th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
This Minhas guy is a fanatic. He attributed very wrong and objectionable comments to Quaid and Pakistan Movement. Pakistan was never made for the Muslims of the world or an Islamic state like Taliban. Even migration was planned for only Punjab and Bengal because the states were being divided. Migration from Bihar, UP an other states was illegal. Open policy will bring disaster for this country. Any one can come in by wearing a cap and beard. This guy lost all respect frm my heart.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Guys can some one post the website to watch free Aaj Tv, Geo Tv or ARY Tv …
Some one post on this forum before but I lost it …
Help me out please
October 30th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
@baig
my understanding is that IF you have to borrow money (for essential needs like buying a house or business) you may have to pay interest. what would be the impact of 0% interest rate + free market - which all european economists accept but dont put in practice. But interest is a long debate ….
in UK the biggest growing market (including HSBC bank, Barclays, Merril Lynch etc) is Islamic Financing products. all of these are backed by the FSA.
October 30th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
@ baig
Atleast Quran provides us a boundary of freedom and asks not to transgress that boundary. Now we are allowed to sit wherever we like in that boundary.
Now if so called Sunis and Shias sit together, they can do Ijtehad/consensus and make modern laws, provided they are not crossing the boundries drawn by Quran. Yeah you are true that it looks very simple in writing but practically it is quite difficult but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for the betterment. I think the process has already started like people are discussing on TVs and forums which may one day will make a force.
As Malik said that if the dialogue is in the hands of educated class then we need not to worry.
Salaam
October 30th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Quote:
_________
Islam is the only religion with full code of life and this is the difference between islam and other religions.
_________
A very good slogan. But where is that code? I have not seen any ’single code of life’ that all Muslims and their Mullas agree today or ever agreed in the past. Muslims cannot even agree on single day of Eid. In one city (e.g. my Greater Toronto) we had Eid on three different days. Code of Life? Dil Kay Khush Rakhnay Ko Ghalib Yeh Khayal Acha Hay.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
I agree with the caller Abid. Fazlullah cannot win a single seat from sawat area.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Unbelievable. I simply can not believe a good channel like Aaj gives these 2 morons an hour long show. They preach nothing but filth and extremism. Everything out of their mouth is lies and pure non-sense. Hell they even try to justify these terrorists in Swat.
Where is the general public and why dont they stand up against these suicide-bomber supporters (especially that Mushtaq fella). People like these are promised the lowest dungeons in Hell.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
To decide whether we want ‘Islamic law’ or some other basis for laws(like logic,reason etc.) the best solution is to vote and see what the majority decides. One thing that is guaranteed is that violence and rebellion against the state is not the answer.
Thanks to jojo and malik for having a decent civilized discussion with me.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Quote:
_________
in UK the biggest growing market (including HSBC bank, Barclays, Merril Lynch etc) is Islamic Financing products. all of these are backed by the FSA.
__________
Interestngly all such Islamic schemes are charging markup that is 2-3% highier to regular mortgage rate. All banks love to finance fools who want to pay 3% more. You know a friend of mine is paying $8000 a year more to bank in comparison to regular mortgage. Just beause the bank call it a ‘Islamic’? In UK and Nort America many Indian Hindus are running ‘Islamic Mortgage’ busnesses and making millions. Baywaqoofi ki bhi koi hadd hoti hay.
I have seen Islamic banking in middle east and Pakistan. It is as Islamic as a circumcized Hindu.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Quote:
_________
To decide whether we want ‘Islamic law’ or some other basis for laws(like logic,reason etc.) the best solution is to vote and see what the majority decides.
_________
What about the results of all elections from Pakistan movementtill today. In all free elections people of Pakistan rejected so-called Islamists completely. These people themselves have parties based on sect (JI, JUP, JI, Nifaz Fiqa Jaafria, Ahle-Hadeeth) are all sectarian parties. Each of these parties has many factions. Pakitan’s constitution is Islamic and no law contrary to Islam can be made. Then waht these militants want in name of Islam? The answer is simple they want supermacy of their particular sect.
Are some people realy hungry for a bloody civil war?
October 30th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Quote:
________
Yeah, there are several sects, but we all believe in one Allah and one Rasool (SAW), rest are secondary issues which can be solved through consensus.
_______–
Bhai the ‘devil is in detail’. Consenses never happened in whole history of Islam. This never happend in time of peace and never happend at time of (civil) war.
We are a nation who almost wiped out All-e-Rasool from the face of earth but still offer Darood on it dozens of times a day.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
link to watch free Pakistani channels including AAj and Geo etc
http://www.cyberviewtv.com
login: http://www.cyberviewtv.com
password:watch4free
October 30th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
@saqib
Ok, according to you, if there is never been a consensus, but atleast the ethics of disagreements were followed among the Muslims.
I would suggest you to read a book by Dr. Yusuf Al Qardawi “The Ethics of disagreement in Islam”. He starts from Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) to Midevial period, and sited several disagreements among the Muslims but atleast the ethics were followed.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:39 am
ok seriously theres no use replying to people start calling others extremists fanatics and terrorists as soon as someone talks about islamic laws and jihad (a taboo in their world)
October 31st, 2007 at 12:48 am
jojo,
regarding ethics of disagreement were only followed when the state was not partisan and state didn’t allow any group to form their own armies. On all other occasions sword was the main decision making force. I have not read this book. Is this available on web?
October 31st, 2007 at 1:35 am
@saqib
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/
Sorry it was written by Taha Jabir and not the Dr. Alqardawi.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:39 am
Thanks jojo.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:01 am
ARTICLE
i read a news article in the times of india. Although it is an indian article;however, some of the points might be right, regarding the situation of pak army. It may be overhyped; nevertheless we should read it.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Multiple_conflicts_bleed_Pak_army/articleshow/2503763.cms
October 31st, 2007 at 2:02 am
again, there are some people who are outsiders, majority of the ppl over there are pakistanis, this is my opinion. this government just wants to kill all the ppl without any talks. i mean wtf, they will kill soldiers if u try to kill them….ISNT THIS A LOGIC? is it that hard to understand? this terror will soon spread all over the country if they dont start talking with them!
October 31st, 2007 at 2:31 am
LATEST FROM BBC NEWS
Last Updated: Tuesday, 30 October 2007, 17:51 GMT
Pakistan premier ‘broke the law’
Shaukat Aziz could be immune from contempt proceedings
Pakistan’s top judge has accused Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz of violating a Supreme Court judgement.
Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry criticised Mr Aziz while hearing a contempt case against him and several senior government officials.
He said Mr Aziz had arranged for the immediate deportation of former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif upon his return to the country in September.
Earlier the court said Mr Sharif had an inalienable right to return from exile.
Mr Chaudhry has in recent years passed several judgements against the government.
President Pervez Musharraf tried to sack him last March, provoking a storm of protests from Pakistan’s legal community and opposition parties.
Nawaz Sharif was deposed by Gen Musharraf in a 1999 coup and went into exile the following year.
He flew into Islamabad on 10 September, after the Supreme Court ruled in August that he was entitled to return.
But hours after landing he was flown back to exile in Saudi Arabia.
‘Prepare plane’
“By 6 September arrangements were being made to violate the order of this court… by the prime minister,” Chief Justice Chaudhry said on Tuesday.
Mr Sharif was deported hours after landing in Islamabad
He was speaking after hearing evidence from the senior official of the Foreign Ministry and the chairman of Pakistan International Airlines.
They said they had been ordered to have a plane ready on 10 September to fly an important person from Islamabad to Jeddah in Saudi Arabia.
It is not clear if Prime Minister Aziz would be immune from prosecution for contempt.
The offence can carry up to six months imprisonment, the Associated Press news agency reports.
Judge Chaudhry said that his August ruling on Mr Sharif’s “inalienable right” to return to Pakistan “is very much intact… and is required to be implemented in letter and spirit”.
The case has been adjourned until 8 November.
Mr Sharif says he will return again to Pakistan before parliamentary elections expected to take place in January.
October 31st, 2007 at 2:32 am
LATEST FROM BBC NEWS:
Last Updated: Tuesday, 30 October 2007, 17:51 GMT
Pakistan premier ‘broke the law’
Shaukat Aziz could be immune from contempt proceedings
Pakistan’s top judge has accused Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz of violating a Supreme Court judgement.
Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry criticised Mr Aziz while hearing a contempt case against him and several senior government officials.
Full article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7069780.stm
@Democrat: Please do not copy and paste complete external article. You are welcome to paste a link preceeded by your “prelude”.
Admin
October 31st, 2007 at 2:55 am
i have seen everyone here commenting n disagree with each other. If we bunch of educated people cant stand on onepoint then dont expect anything from Illeterate Pakistanis. I want people who gives solution, Rather critisizig provide slutions of problem. i m sure we all here dont know any reaities on Grounds. cauze everyone here is out of pakistan
October 31st, 2007 at 3:13 am
Here’s a difference between being religious and being spiritual:
- Religious: those who don’t want to go to Hell!
- Spiritual: those who have been to Hell, and don’t want to go back!
By the way: I am sick and tired of hearing the word: “ground realities”! Even an illiterate Pervez Elahi is becoming a parrot!
November 25th, 2007 at 7:21 am
I was wondering about the next army chief general ashfaq kiyani is he shia or sunni. i know he was born in jhelum in punjab.