This is great news. I hope our heroes will keep up the momentum to get rid of GHQ, agencies and corrupt politicians, inshallah!

/Saqib

Inshallah. It looks impossible but with prayers (helpless and poor people), God will help our Pakistan.

Inshallah success will be that of truth

Hats off for the lawyers & civil society who is still sacrificing & voicing for the “Rule of Law”. May Allah bless you.
We are proud on you guys for supporting “Rule of Law” & InshAllah success would be your destiny.
You are fighting for masses(ignorant people), its simply commendable. The movement is getting momentum even electronic media blackout of the coverage of protests.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=278&page=1&l=84bf8&id=1016647542

A rally arranged by PTI Karachi (seemz PTI has started to organise itself, a good sign)

Allah is on our side. The movement will not go in vain.

Words could be false and full of art, sigh is the natural language of heart…. I am not passamist but God help Pakistan from the hand of those who think they are the best but no one else. If we don’t get breakthrough now to establish rule of law and people representation, from mush and PML-Q, no wonder the way will b to long to bring the iron on the heating level as its now. So pray and try to do it now, best of luck Imran Khan, though I dont think that your success is so near but still I have all my wishes and prayers for you. Atleast Imran has contribution in Pakistan and a self made man, he might be controvercial in few things, but he didn’t harm anyone.

Good job.. now take two bombs plant them in the parliment and thats it.. we dont need it… we will take all the decision on read.. if thats how you want it.

Its now our duty to stay stand by stand with our heroes who are still believing on rule of law in Pakistan. Although in this Musharraf,s Pakistan it seems really hard but dedication and constant struggle will push these Boots and Boot minded fellows in their barrics!!!!!!!

Honourable Justice Bhagwan Das message.

http://www.khabrain.com/htmls/pg19.htm

with lawyers movement gaining momentum on streets and NS efforts both on streets and in parliament….Mush’s days are over

Americans told not to come. Its futile

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2007/12/071214_hina_critises_sq.shtml

One good news is that we have one more party boycotting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2007/12/071214_juis_poll_boycott.shtml

NS announces his manifesto…..’Restoration of judiciary to pre-November 3 position and the 1973 Constitution take top priority in party’s manifesto’

Long live lawyers movement

I am delighted to read this news….
and somewhat amused to read the comments…:)
governments are not changed by a few hundred or even a few thousand people…
the masses are not convinced that democracy is good for Pakistan…they want the rule of one person…
it is in a way sub-consciously derived from our cultural and religious notions.
we prefer centralisation to de-centralisation…

we need to fight the battle of ideas…explain why democracy is superior to dictatorship of any kind…taht people have rights…they they have right to govern themselves…

but I think it will be hard to do so…since our history does not have democracy…a sea change in our perception of history and culture and religion is required to become democratic..
tipu

Mush’s days are over.

Without uniform, he is like a building without any foundation. You touch it, and it will collapse to the ground.

I hope when he collapse, he collapse on top of Qenchi League. We need to be ready for ‘Janaza’ of Cycle Chores.

NS in his partys election manifesto clearly states- All party ticket holders will take oath that they will not valiate Nov 3 actions and he even called on BB and Fazlu to do same. Just read the comments BB said yesterday regarding the judges. Shocking. Majority of the lawyers are in PPP but still no one objects to them. BB says AA said to her he was in pressure from lawyers so he cannot run for election but will reamin loyal to PPP always. I am not optimistic now that the deposed judges will be restored

Great Great!

Our Judges, Our lawyers, Our Journalists and all those sincere people of the civil society.
We are very far from our country but we stand with you. You are our heroes. We will never forget your sacrifices.

Election without a free Judiciary is a BIG JOKE with Democracy but the Champians of democracy dont care because they want their SLAVE Musharaf to stay, obey and follow their plans.

Aamir

“Keep in mind that where you put your awareness and your attention is where your life will go”

Tundiyye baad-e-mukhalif sey na ghabra aye aukaab”
Yeh to chalit hai tujhey ooncha uraaney k-liyye”

Keep it up lawyers
No to Vote

NS might be sincere but there wont be much of an impact. how many seats is he expecting to win? It wont matter much if BB Q league get in power and ratify all what mushy has done. And its no secret that they will be in power after jan 8th. NS will just be beating the desk.

The right way to go was boycott and he has missed that chance. Manifesto or no manifesto he’ll not be able to put that pressure on the government b/c as it seems now that he’ll be alone in that demand. He wont get any support from either BB or Fuzlu.

the DAWN report says…
wherein no political party turned up…

but the photo shows Imran/Qadi…

kiya ye khula tazad nahi?

Tipu

Inshallah, the lawyers and other members of civil society will not rest till rule of law is established. Then, Musharraf and his cohorts will be tried in court by the very judges he tried to dismiss. If the movement fails, its bad news for Pakistan, but it is still not good news for Mushie. He has handed the judiciary over to crooks like Malik Qayyum and Hamid Dogar (spit!) and one day he will be hauled up before these kangaroo courts by the next usurper. Then, Pirzada will argue against him, Malik Qayyum (spit!) will make the arrangements and Dogar (SPIT!) will sentence him to be stipped naked and flogged….and it will all be perfectly legal, inshallah.

@admin

The National Law Journal has recognised CJ Iftikar Chaudhry as Lawyer of the Year for 2007. We need to recognize, highlight and publicize that.

Thank You

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1197367478857

Like General Musharraf says one should look in to the causes of terrorism, i would say we need to look and deal with the causes/reasons which will enable him an other five year term. So here is a bird eye view.

- Musharraf meets BIBI in Abu Dabi
- Cases against BIBI are withdrawn.
- BIBI comes to Pakistan
- Musharraf runs for President office again.

- Supreme court takes stand on both withdrawn of cases against BIBI, and Musharraf’s illegal nomination for president office.

- Musharraf gets vote from parliment, BIBI does not resign.

- Bibi plays SINDH card.
- Musharraf sends judges back home

- BIBI reluctant about judges, musharraf likes it.
- Third term PM restriction going away.

In whole of this film, who is the cause of Musharraf getting re-elected ?, and who is the cause of BIBI to become PM ?. I leave it up to you guys.

Cheers .!!!

I feel so proud on them (IK and his allies),,, and INSHALLAH my all prayers are with pakistan loving brothers and sisters… INSHALLAH we will win against devil traitors (mush, mqm, and co)
Plz all pray, who are outside pk and who r in pk but due to any reason can’t participate..
ALLAH is the well planner… Pakistan is #1 country in the world. we just have to delete these devils mush and co, from system.

TO ADMIN

ADMIN PLEASE UPLOAD THE CAPITAL TALK ON 14TH DECEMBER.
THANK YOU

Well done Lawyers!
Keep it on. Tell the Pakistanis that principles are also dear to follow. Opportunism is not the only way out. Pakistan should be ruled by law, principles should flourish, Constitution should stay supreme, and the voice of logic should be heard.
Hats off to the judges who did not succumb to the PCO tyranny and to the lawyers who bore the brunt.
Good luck!

Dr Qaisar Rashid
Glasgow

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2007/12/071214_protests_ngos_scribes.shtml

Keep it up! time is not far when the people of Pakistan will live under “Rule of Law” & honor your(lawyers & civil society) sacrifices & services.

Backup lawyers & civil society.

Every one participating in protests for the restoration of judiciary are representing the conscious of the nation. They are setting a good example of the HUSSANI way of life ,not only call the illegmate action but resist all those who take these actions . The struggle for the role of law is no different than the struggle for the independence from the SAMRAJ . It might be little harder because of the MUNIFQUEEN , but Inshallah ,one day we will get it ,it may take a little longer

but it would be won by the presitent struggle of people of conscious not through
assemblies .

JUST a simple question if in 1999 a 2/3 majority can not save the political government ,how a 2/3 majority will be allowed to proceed against the people with guns .

Do not be fooled by the acceptance by the west .The most BAZAMIR and MUNIFIQ

Mushid Hussain ,the so caaled intellectual was used to say the same thing in 1999 ,that now the world has changed and the western world will never accept the take over by the MILTARY,he was also refering with each sentence that have BARI MANADATE ,could that bari manadate save thier government ,the answer is no . Could 2/3 majority would be allowed by the GUNDA MAFIA to restore the pre-november 03 judiciary ,the answer is no

I ask all the fellow pakistani ,please do not be fooled by this 2/3 majority possibility ,

Do participate in the active struggle to oppose the GUNDA RULE,

IF you can not do any thing at least recognise the right path and help those who are leading the struggle ,if not by any thing ,then at least pray for the success of thier struggle .this investment is more important for the prosperity of your Kids than other investment ,which you are making

LONG LIVE CJ ,LONG LIVE BRAVE JUDGES

http://moveforjustice.org/Media/Pictures/tabid/106/AlbumID/560-38/Default.aspx

Peshawar students are protesting. The efforts from civil society & lawyers are commendable

Backup lawyers, civil society & students.

Great news! Waiting for the judicial bus to steam roll the sham election activity.

We need to start preparing for the judicial bus launch. Any ideas on what role we can play on the cyberspace.

One idea is for someone to make an animation (could be done in java) that shows a judicial bus driving over Mush, BB, Ch Shujaat, Dogar the dog and all the evil characters.

In spite of eclecrontic media blackout for protests coverage, the lawyers from all political parties, civil society, students are protesting againist SAMRAJ.

Say No to vote. as successful elections is on Mushs top agenda.

Judicial bus will prove to be the final nail………………………………………

Rule of Law is the right of masses(ignorant people) & lawyers, civil society, students are fighting very hard for it, May Allah Bless you.

Nothing will happen because MOST of Pakistani are Bay Hiss and rather Bay Ghairat.

They will just cry and finger point to each other, enjoy at their homes but out of 160 million , only a handsome are there always for the resistence.

Most of us are having mentality of slaves and are afraid to do or say anything against the masters.

see this article ( daily express, title jungle, by javed chaudhry)
this is jsut oen examples of many such incidents of our society and i dont know where is our so called ghairat. No body has balls ( not talking abt decoration balls) to stop this brutal act??

http://express.com.pk/epaper/Article.aspx?newsID=1100316237&Date=20071214&Issue=NP_LHE

Better we stop drawing room politics and first get chullo bher paani….and dotn forget the next step after that.

The movement by civil society, lawyers & students has also started getting support from various political parties(going for election), namely AA from Peoples party, Ramzan Chaudhry & VP Zafar Ali Shah from Noon League along with the parties who as a whole are with this movement PTI, JI, JUI(Sami-ulhaq), Achaekzai & PONAM……..

Reinventing the nation By Ayaz Amir (worth reading article)

http://dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

OR rather reinventing the nation’s politics, for the old directions are dead, heaped up like fossils of an age gone by on the dung-heap of what passes for our history……………………..
………………………Dictatorship has diminished Pakistan. Our judges, lawyers and, I daresay, those manning the media’s trenches have raised its standing. Freedom may have been stifled for the moment but the hope that it will eventually triumph remains alive, burning brightly in hopeful breasts.

Pakistan has decided to nullify the laws that barred prime ministership for the third time.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070035956&ch=12/14/2007 10:50:00 PM

SO IT BEGINS, ITS EITHER BB OR NS, MOST LIKELY ITS BB.

madcow will be accountable for all of his actions one day. And that day is not far away the persistance of movement is just a glimpse of it.

@ Bay Hiss

You are right, that we are bayghairat, but that was islamabad, where all the rich and children of the elite hang out and do what ever they want. Unless we get rid of these ……..
we will never gain any freedom, Iam glad that in other cities people have this shame to some extent. U really have made me sad. Inshallah those who did this dispicable act will have their heads crushed under running cars. ameen

@ Zenith

(forgive me and dont think i m point to u )

I was also just SAD…….becasue i am also a bay hiss and bay ghairat Pakistani like most of us are.

if we were not bay ghairat then how come this dictator can rule us for last 8 years.

why there only 1000 in all pakistan in 160 million people who have ghairat to come out on streets against this system of ZULM.

First we should have a movement to admitt our bay ghairti.
ok..most of us here will say that we r not in pakistan and thatss why we can have only desktop activity..
then tell me out of 3 million pakistanis in UK( for example) why only 30 are there in the protests???

SHAME On Bay ghairat pakistanis………nothing will wake up their Ghairat..

we will jsut type comments here . our ghairat is also now just E-GHAIRAT i guess??

Rule of Law will prevail InshAllah.

And then these bsterds can’t do like thiese inselting acts.

@Bay Hiss

I have lived a hard life & you know what even a single word of apperciation was a sigh of relief for me in those times & gives me the hope in darkness.

So do apperciate good & condemn the bad also carries the weight. Thatswhy I do spent time in apperciating the good work by anyone, it gives them new spirit & also gives us a fresh feeling.

Tundiyye baad-e-mukhalif sey na ghabra aye aukaab
yeh to chalti tujhey ooncha uraaney keliyye

National Disgrace, “Mull pao ya mitti pao”. It looks like he is selling (mull pao) something at the moment.

Any comments on this picture

@ Ahraf

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH!

Priceless, that picture is just PRICELESS.

LOL@Ashraf….nice picture!!

Imran Khan is da man……..

bhonga shujaat with manifesto of shame

@Ashraf

bang on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1197367478857

LAWYER OF THE YEAR | IFTIKHAR MUHAMMAD CHAUDHRY

Inspiration in a troubled land

I think the follwoing should go with the above picture:

A creative reflection of PMLQ manifesto by Umer Riaz

The Pakistan Muslim League-Q on Monday launched its manifesto for the 2008 elections revolving around five “Ds�. Anybody know what are they? Let’s see

1. DICTATOR: (worship him, he is one, he is great and always right)
2. DEAL: (from the famous saying of Chaudhries “mull payo yah mitti payo�)
3. DIVIDE AND RULE: (if British can do that in subcontinent why cant we)
4. DE FACTO: (President, Parliament and Judiciary )
5. DOLLARS: (sell the nation to get cheap $$$, don’t worry we have 160 millions )

Last but not the least do all the above to DISTROY the nation.

Party Motto: “Looto or lootnay doo�.

http://pkpolitics.com/forums/topic/pml-q-launches-5-ds-manifesto-1?

lol…. I swear… if i tell u whenever i saw this man CSH I loughout with one of his live comment on media… Please somebudy promise me that no female will see this comment, I might share it with u… ha ha ha.. I am in sweden and believe me I never loughed that much as I m now…

Mad Musharraf has a strange way of putting questions and answers. Because of his style alone, he is making funny headlines, Such as:

‘Am I a Madman?’

The answer, says Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, is no — but he is angry. Lally Weymouth has the rest of the interview.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/?reload=true

Imran khan said in a program (i would say Aqwal e Zareen by Imran Khan) that Politics is not about gaining power in national or provisional assemblies, politics is about issues, awareness, truth and educating people about their rights and freedom. Having said that, i think Nawaz Sharif’s decision to go for polls is right bcoz if they don’t, it will clear the way for 2/3 majority for Paidoos of Gujrat (i cant belive, i cant…i cant..i cant…these paindoos are leaders in Pakistan).
I think Imran Khan is right to not to contest for elections and Nawaz Sharif is right as well…both ways are correct…I hope and pray that Nawaz sharif gets lots of seats in elections..once he is successfull i am sure he persuade imran the great to join them in assembly and work for the betterment of country.

Pakistan Lawers zindabad…..Pakistan zindabad…

I think that once the judges are released the movement for restoration of judiciary will galvanize. Aitzaz et all will spearhead the movement. The nation is behind this movement. I salute the free media who are bracing for big losses but would not budge to the pressure of a dictator. I think that once the details of the judiciary fund is released, people will donate whole heartedly. I think that the lawyer community has done amazing job by showing the resilience and perseverance. Benazir and maulana deisel (fazlu) are not better than Q league. NS slogan is better in terms of restoration of judiciary. I am still skeptical about his promises as he is a flip flop.
If a new justice party is launched by Aitzaz et all with a slogan of ‘ justice for all’, he will supersede the once popular slogan of roti kapara makaan. I am just waiting for the day ‘ jub thaaj uchaalay jaayen gay’.
I think if there is no justice in a country then it has no right to exist. I also believe that pakistan military is responsible for all the problems and miseries of pakistani people and the country. The army has played havoc with the very foundation of the country. I think that they should downsize the army. The stronger the pakistani army the weaker the country and vice versa. They are good to conquer its own people but show a rear end when it comes to India.

@kruman,

I think you are very correct. At one point he said that the wishes of people will be respected in elections.
Good thinking Kruman.

Naare e Takbeer Allah o akbar
Zinada bad Jamat Islami.
Zinada bad Qazi sahib
Zinadabad Imran khan
Zinda bad lawyers

I am proud of u:)

We the peiople of Pakistan thank the lawyers, journalist and the memebers of the civil society for their sacrifices and assure them of our full support. Pakistan awam is with you, shoulder to shoulder, in this struggle to liberate judiciary.

Both the lawyers movement and PML-N have common goals but different strategies. I sincerely feels that the common goals can be achieved if all the anti Mush forces are united.

Lastly, I would advise every one, not to believe in the IRP polls. In my opinion some lobby is working in full force to promote BB. I wonder who is paying for that.

Our nation will be in debt to these courageous people forever. I have faith that when those political parties who are boycotting the elections get together with the lawyers, the movement will gain strength.

The news about the violence against girls - Javed Chaudry’s article - is disturbing. I am not sure that we can dismiss it by saying that it was Islamabad. Remember the scenes in the ‘Missing in Pakistan’ video? That was not in Islambad but no one even tried to stop the ‘kidnapping’ of the woman’s son. And also remember the treatment to Mukhtara Mai…and the list goes on. You cannot think of any place in Pakistan where such or similar incident could not have happened.

I think, almost all of us on this forum are engaged in superficial discussions. We see one news on a thousand lawyers coming on the street and we fill the site with wah wah. We read an article on violence to women and we dismiss it - ah that was Islamabad. We read one item about Mush/BB and we start sloganising against them. That is all we have shown ourselves capable of of. Superficiality. No depth, no desie to ask hard questions, no historical, sociological or philoosphical analysis.

The fact is - and this the hard fact - people are not taking stance on anything. The approach of the person in article who cried on Jai Namaz for hours but did nothing when he should have trusted God and helped the girls is a reflection of the attitude of most of us.

Really, we need to think hard and deep. Why are people not coming on the streets? Why are they implicitly supporting the dictator? And it is not on these large issues but you take anything and nothing happens. Prices are increasing but no demonstration against it; street viloence is increasing but there is no show of strength against it; police brutality is blatant but there is no demonstration against it. Yes, but we do come on the street to protest against Salman Rushdie, against Cartoons. What has happened to us? In Burma it was the religious groups that came on street and took bullets. How come our religion is not inspiring us to speak truth to the power? Are believers in one God not naturally inclined to seek one authority in everuthing - including the running of their country? Do not get angry but reflect on these questions.

We will have to ask deep and hard questions. What role is religion playing in our lives? All religions start of as social critique. The Quran too is full of encoragement to help the poor to fight injustice to trust God and stand against the misuse of power. How come we are not motivated by this side of our faith? How come religion has become a competition to say more and more namaz, fast, and Hajj only? Why is it that while we are performing ‘Wo Aik Sijda’ it is not giving us ‘HAZAR SAJDU SAY NIJAT’?

Was there a mistake in the actual creation of Pakistan? Is our condition today the result of our birth defect? Was Wali Khan right when he said that I am a Pushtoon for 2000 years, a Muslim for 1400 yaers and a Pakistani for mere 50 years? Have we failed to make a nation out of a state?

Is really democracy not something we are capable of? Are there groups of people who cannot even imagine what freedom is? Are we the nation who loves the imagined security of being in bondage - of feudals, of factory owners, of vice-chancellors, of military, of dictators - over the responsibilities of being a free nation?

Yes, we must admire the great work done by the lawyers but the fact is that despite so much of their sacrifices, masses have not moved. This also cannot be neglected. Why is it necessary for the masses to come on the street? Very simple. Democracy means power to people. In a democratic set up it is people who give power to the government. In a democracy government’s are scared of the power of the people. But for people will have to show that they have this power. Thsi is what French Revolution did for Europeans. It showed that people have power and till today if there is anything government’s are afraid of it is this street power.

I am writing these things - these hard questions - beacuse this forum is populated by some of the very intelligent people I have come across and I think we have a chance to really engage in a serious discussion and not just be content with some slogans against Mush and in favour of IK and CJ. This will not do. Only a serious honest reflection will help.

Tipu

Support for the true lawyer movement. the radical emergency is now over. its now time to gather and march towards supreme court. restore judiciary; down with corrupt ppp and other looting schemes.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said that if you cannot control the evil by force, but,. if you are unable to do it, condemn it . If that too is impossible for you then condemn it in the heart” The last stage is for those who just feel bad so when you are feeling bad sit of Jaanamaz and pray hard as Allah listen to the dua from the heart. We should use all the ways which we have in our control.
The following artical has made me wonder about the future of our children . http://express.com.pk/epaper/Article.aspx?newsID=1100316237&Date=20071214&Issue=NP_LHE

The Martial Law has been lifted(supposedly) but the constitution has been badly altered to suit the general. He has done everything in his power to consolidate his power and has gained more power in doing so. so much for the “selections” we are going to have where the “opposition” is supposed to prevent busharraf in doing exactly what he has just done. But this is not the end, the opposition is also dreaming of reversing what busharraf has done post 3rd nov. i’ll only say one thing…dream on

check this…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2007/12/071215_emergency_hrw_ns.shtml

@Tipu

I am glad that you have raised these points. They are the crux of the matter that we as Muslims and Pakistanis need to ponder about. I firmly believe that we need to go back to our roots not only in terms of religion but also in terms of a nation.

Let me ask you, what is the single underlying commonality between all Pakistanis? Islam. It is on this basis that this country was founded. Some might disagree but i really dont know then what difference remains between Pakistan and India if we take out islam of the picture.

But have we stuck to our basis? NO!!! As you have mentioned yourself we are just interested in a religious competition. The forms are there but the soul isn’t. Even those who are sincere have such a narrow perception of religion that they are unable to grasp the holistic view of islam. It isn’t merely a collection of some rituals and prayer forms rather it is a whole system of life. Unless we go back to that system and see how can that system be implemented in our present case we are going to rot as a nation.

But keeping the religious on one side, whatever is happening now is as important. There is awakening. There is soul searching. There is an urge to stand firm in front of injustice. This movement is not just a ranting of a few thousand. It has shown us that the people of Pakistan are still alive. There are people here who could have protected those girls in Islamabad. They are a few but their courage can gather more.

Common man in Pakistan is striving to survive. And in this day and age where all the prices are sky rocketing, i person really needs so much as to pass his day with a stomach full. But unless this common man realizes that his problems are rooted in the corruption of the system and changing that requires sacrifice, he will not come out on the streets. The change that is required can only be realized when people are made to realize that change is their only option. This is where our politician, civil society members come in. Their movement should include the grass root level otherwise we are not going to get those results which we seek.

Coming back to Islam, one dilemma being faced by the nation is that the religious leaders and ulemas themselves dont a complete understanding or should i say again, the holistic view of islam. Some opt for the gun while the other for the musalla. Both the extremes are wrong. Until and unless we understand the true demand of our religion and understand our position in this world, we are going to wander around aimlessly. Quran and Sunnah are the basis of our religion and they need to understood in the right context. That is the only solution.

A nation with a sense of purpose and direction would not have stood staring those poor girls get beaten by those hooligans. Their moral, religious and civic conscience would not have allowed them that.

The point of the matter is we need to get a sense of our purpose in life, not only as a nation but as humans and muslims as well.

@tipu
The questions that why people have become apathic to the injustices in the society and why dont they come out in the streets for their rights have strong reasons.
Over the years Pakistani society has been successfully depoliticised and desensitised by the establishment, ably aided by the mullah. The judicial murder of Bhutto managed by Zia regime was one of the strongest overt threat to the public in general that who ever will try in future to think about the ideals of civilian supremacy and to empower the common people in Pakistan will meet the same fate.
In the fiftees and sixties when communists and Ahmadis were threatened and persecuted we did not stood up, in the sixties and early seventies when the Bengalis were being ridiculed and slaughtered we preferred to remain quiet. Towards the end of seventies and eighties when PPP and Bhuttos were being grilled we prefered to collaborate. When Mian sahib’s turn came no one was left to ask for help.
The people of Pakistan have been methodically brain washed by the almighty establishment of its invincibility and the uselessness of struggle against it. The exodus of middle class to the greener pastures has furthered the cause of forces of status quo.
Faiz sahib said this over half a decade ago:
http://www.urdupoint.com/poetry/poem-35-38-1497-1-06–.html
But the show must go on and the struggle against the injustices continue, despite the odds. This is life.

@tipu
Historically Muslim socities have been used to a single central authority figure in the form of Khalifa the vice regent of Allah or sultan the zil e Elahi under the influence of Aik Allah, Aik RAsool, Aik Quran mind set, though socio-culturally muslims there was fairly tolerent and pluralistic. In the sub-continent the muslims were in minority yet they ruled over the non muslims majority under the dynastic shahi rule. So when the British thought of introducing democracy in India in the after math of War of Independence the mulims were puzzled and rather felt threatened as they could foresee the Hindu rule in the future democratic dispensation. That was the reason that the initial muslim response was escapist and therefore instead of preparing to participate they started asking for guarantees ,reservations and quotas. It was only some of the educated ones from the generation of Jinnah who equipped themselves for the emerging democratic challenges. For the rest of the muslims it was business as usual. Hence at the dawn of independence there were just a handful of educated, progressive Muslims with democratic inclinations.

@tipu
One concept that is responsible for inertia in the muslim societies in my opinion is the victory doctrine of pre-determinism of the Asharitte school over the doctrine of free will of Mutazila. For an ordinary Pakistani muslim since every thing is pre determined so why put in some effort for change. I remember even when some patient used to pass away the only consolation offered was that all happens by the will of God so no one can do any thing,so sabr karo Allah ko ye hi manzoor tha, even if the death was caused by the inefficiency of the medical staff.

Another concept, which is deeply embedded in muslim psyche,thanks to the misplaced logic of semi literate and self serving mullah, is that of life after death. This life is temporary , the real one is to come after death. So even if this life goes waste there is no problem as the actual eternal life is yet to come. So no problem if you are poor or sick, if you are victim of injustice of some man made atrocity but since this all is mundane so no need to worry , just keep praying, which concomitently means no need to put in some effort just be razi bir raza e elahi.

And then the Mullah preach atta’at of Allah and Rasool and those who are made your rulers giving the rulers (usually usurpers) divine sanction to rule.

A nice column by Javeed Chudary

Understand the importance and show your concern!!!

http://express.com.pk/images/NP_LHE/20071216/Sub_Images/1100317251-2.gif

@commoner
If you are blaming the concept of destiny of fate for the ills of Muslim societies than you are dead wrong. The debate of destiny in not exclusive to Asharitte or Mutazila school of thought. It is a Quranic doctrine. Your answer is in verses 20-24 of surah al-hadid (surah 57 of Quran): (pay special attention to verse 23)

20. Know that the life of this world is only play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children, as the likeness of vegetation after rain, thereof the growth is pleasing to the tiller; afterwards it dries up and you see it turning yellow; then it becomes straw. But in the Hereafter (there is) a severe torment (for the disbelievers, evil-doers), and (there is) Forgiveness from Allâh and (His) Good Pleasure (for the believers, good-doers), whereas the life of this world is only a deceiving enjoyment.

21. Race one with another in hastening towards Forgiveness from your Lord (Allâh), and towards Paradise, the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers. That is the Grace of Allâh which He bestows on whom He pleases. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty.

22. No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfûz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allâh.

23. In order that you may not be sad over matters that you fail to get, nor rejoice because of that which has been given to you. And Allâh likes not prideful boasters.

24. Those who are misers and enjoin upon people miserliness (Allâh is not in need of their charity). And whosoever turns away (from Faith Allâh’s Monotheism), then Allâh is Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.

Dear Asad,

Thank you for your response.
It is true that appeal to Muslimness played an important part in the making of Pakistan. But it is also true that many guardians of Islam did not favour the creation of Pakistan. It is also true that almost the same number of Muslims remained in India. It is also true that religious bond was not enough to keep East and West Pakistan together.
The point I am making is that states may come into existence for a variety of reasons but it is not necessary that the same raesons would help them survive and grow. Against the British Rule, against the abolishment of Khilafat, both Hindus and Muslims had come together. Yet, the unity as Indians or South Asians was not strong enough to make everyone agree to one country. Similarly, our sense of being Muslim may have given us Pakistan, it was clearly not enough to keep us united. The fact is that we now exist and if we want this existence to continue, we must be willing to forge an identity of Pakistan. It cannot be Islam only. It has to be a Pakistani Islam. The sense of belonging to a geographical region has to be at-least as strong as the sense of belonging to a country. Further, do not forget that there are non-Muslims in Pakistan. Too much stress on Islam as the main identity of pakistan will make them second-grade citizens. Always keep in mind that Muslims too are in minority in many many countries and if these countries would make Hinduuism or Chrsitianity their main identity, we Muslims will have unbearable lives there.
So the point is that Islam has a crucial role in pkaistan but the national identity of Pakistan is also cruucial.
Tipu

Dear Commoner,

First, I wish commoners were really like you…:)…we would have no problems then. Second, I infer from your analysis of the making of pakistan that it was created out of the fear of democracy. I will not disagree with it. But then it makes the task of bringing democracy to our country even more chanllenging. I think, the first thing will be to challange those who say that democracy has not worked in pakistan. In Today’s NYTimes there is an interview with Sharifuddin Pirzada. He says this. Both civilians and military rulers have been corrupt. The image given to the people is that democracy has been not good for Pakistan. This must be questioned. There never was democracy. there was only overt or covert military rule. People will have to understand this.
Tipu

Dear Azeem,

Azeem, you are right that the Quran does stress pre-destination. But the Quran also has this verse: surely Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition (Qur’an: 13:11). It was because the Quran allows for multiple interpretations that great scholars had different opinions. That was the reason why in the first place we had Asharite and Mutazalite schools and before then the Qadarite and the Jabarite. I think it will not be unIslamic for us to say that while God is all powerful, He in his wisdom has given humen beings freewill. It si beacuse He has given humans freewill that we can be responsible for our acts and thsu be judged in the Hereafter. So, i think, our religion does not stop us from taking responsibility for our condition. But self-serving leaders and ulemas have chosen to stress pre-destination more than freewill.

Tipu

Dear Tipu

“The sense of belonging to a geographical region has to be at-least as strong as the sense of belonging to a country.”
___________________________________

When we look for centripetal forces that provide cohesion to a multi ethnic, multi lingual state of PakistanI we find three important factors at work; Islam, Army and Indus. The first two have failed on their own to provide unity to Pakistan now it is high time to make a paradigm shift and seriously look towards the third one, the Indus.

Atezaz Ahsan provides an alternate concept of nationhood based on commonality of people inhibiting the Indus region in his masterly discourse on history titled as”Indus saga and the making of Pakistan”. He states that there exists a non physical tangent drawn from Kashmir to Kathiawar that seperates the Indus region from India. The region situated west of this tangent and to the east of Afghanistan has existed as a distinct unit with a peculiar Indus identity for centuries and that provides historical reason for the existence of Pakistan. This geographical nationalism can and should replace the two nation theory based concept of Pakistan which has already become redundant and infact has given rise to a plethora of problems to the already muddled affairs of the state of Pakistan.

I rate Atezaz’s work comparable to Nehru’s Discovery of India. Incidentally both were conceived and put to paper in the years of incarceration, Nehru’s under the British and Atezaz’s under Zia.

Dear Commoner,

The book is available in a library near my place. I will look up.
The key issue theefore is Identity. For a long time the meaning of being a Pakistani has been defined in the anti-Indian terms, with the overlay of India being equated with Hindus and Pakistan with Muslims. K.K. Aziz’s ‘Murder of History’ is an excellent analysis of history is mis-used to create a narrative of eternal fight between the infidel Hindu(India) and faithful Muslim (Pakistan). For example, Mahmood Gaznavi’s warfare is depicted as a Muslim conqueror inavding Hindu lands, completing forgetting that he routed several Muslim rulers on his way. Gaznavi was not fighting for Islam, nor was his primary identity Muslim.
The groups taht have benefitted from such Muslimised-antiIndian identity of Pakistan are the military and the Mullah. The case of Fazlu siding with army is not a surprise at all when seen in this light.
I am glad that there is now an emergence of a debate on alternatives. Your thoughts are a welcome contribution.
To think of ourselves as Pakistanis is necessary beacuse the world in which we live is of nation-states. People and governments make friends and enemies on national basis. We have suffered several times by linking up with causes on religious rather than national basis. I hope that the negative role played by Saudi Arabia will show to many people that even this so called ‘khadim al-Harmayan’ is first a country with its own interest and then a religious entity.

Tipu