If PPP have the report, they should bring it to public right away. If the report was almost ready and BB was about to bring it out, then still the report can be brought out by PPP, if they really have the report in their custody along with the evidences.

So BB was angel then. it looks she never was involved in any type of corruption and rigging……everyone is corrupt…”iys hamam mian sab nanga hain”

@ adnan21

But shameless people like you never feel nanga because they don’t have clothes even outside Hamam.

For some people murdering is a matter of pride. They call themselves Mutahida Qatil Movement

The Q in Q league is the same as the Q in MQM, Muttahida Qatil Movement

A very sad and tragic death of BB .

But she was no great democractic leader.

Pakistan’s flawed and feudal princess by William Dalrymple:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2233334,00.html

Making a Mockery of Democracy by Mohammad Gil:

http://www.chowk.com/articles/13304

Adnan21, so you say BB is corrupt but the SHOs, Grade 20 officer, Shakih Rashied, and Altaf Bhai are not corrupt.

What ever BB did, but she didnot deserve to be killed like this. But, at the same time, it would be really irrational to ignore the scale of corruption she did and calling her an angel. Time Mag. declared the second government of BB as the most corrupt administration in the history of Pakistan.

I think adnan21 was mentioning that everybody is corrupt in Pakistan, rather than he was insulting BB’s death, and we should not get personal to anybody and call them names rather than give arguments to prove our point.

She was not angel but certainly a human being.
Human make mistakes.
But the murder is a blunder.
If BB was forced oacking after muder of Murtaza Bhutto then why MUSH is sticking to figth terrorism. Is MUSH only man in the whole world who knows where Osama is and he is waiting for what. I Think Pak Army knows how to run their professional affairs, they don’t need a 64 year old half mad Altaf follwer to run their affairs.

MQM politics is about to end in KHI as they have been truly exposed. Why MQM cannot wok with out Altaf Don. Are MUSH and Altf Don undisposeable? Why ?

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jan2008-daily/01-01-2008/col8.htm

BIBI HUM AAP SAY SHARMINDA HAIN

Mera Pakistan

Dont try to tell teh things by jugglery of words - you want to say she was corrupt - ok lets say she was corrupt

then first of all you had so many years to prove her corruption - you should have done it and secondly even if she was corrupt she had full right to go to awam and let them accept her or reject her. Who are you to accuse someone just because some western writers said so.

Well Westerners are also today not worried about democracy - they are just worried about war on terror. What do you say about that?

Now that BB has died - dont sin yourself by repeating something you have no evidece for and leave it to Allah because she is with Allah and He is the one who can decide who was right or wrong. Dont try to play God. Maybe your sins are more than her - who knows - can you say for yourself you are a very pious person and can criticise her

I don’t know if I should grief BB. She had tremendous qualities but coupled with dangerous traits as well. If the world lost a unique personality, that is not the point here. We need to narrow down our vision to see what is and was to be her impact on Pakistan. That role of her is important for all of us.

Her previous stints as PM is nothing to boast about. She has to feel accountable for Zardari loot maar. This time she had obtained so many favors from outside to go for the throne at all cost, that it was scary what Pakistan would have to compromise at payback time, which BB had already started hinting.

I do appreciate her role (even with shady deals with the devil) in trying to oust Hosni Musharraf who I think is a great curse for Pakistan and a road block for a progressive, fair, and just Pakistan.

Just a not of caution:
Remember a few days back the western media was pushing the report claiming the funds for War FOR Terror were being diverted against India. Now they are pushing this story. Now I am NOT saying it is not true but is ISI meddling in elections “news” to anyone of us? But I think we are being manipulated here into blaming ISI for the wrong reason. Sure they probably are the culprits but I will not believe the reason behind BB’s assassination was this report. If ISI did it, they probably were following orders…

CNN Reporting

“Elections in Pakistan have been postponed for at least four weeks, sources at the Election Commission told CNN today.”

Lota league is given time to pull itself together.

Meetha Sach

Listen its better to remember the dead ones with good words - As Muslims that is what we are taught in Quran and Sunnah. She is no more with us and who knows she is Shaheed and in eyes of Allah she has a very high status.

So the more you would condemn her - her sins would be added to your list - and to be honest think about yourself - I dont know about you at all - but can you cleim that you are the most pious person and you have never made mistakes.

No one is perfect except Allah and all the rest are human beings. Even Prophets made mistakes but ofcourse they were rightly guided by Allah and had very high stature.

Zardari Claimed that BB’s Will is the personal property of Bilawal and that there is no need to see it. Well if it was that personal then how come he made it the basis to railroad his way to Chairmanship.It smells fish that he had disclosed all the contents but refused examination of the document. I think he just plucked it out of thin air. I remember the time when the PPP leadership was simply sick of him and had BB promise to stop him form interfering in PPP politics.

If the Will is genuine then still I think it is in bad taste to make a Federal party your personal fiefdom and allot it to your near and dear. However I still hope that PPP acts in a true National Spirit and rids us of Hosni Musharraf, and becomes a true saviour of Pakistan and chart a new course even if it has to deviate from the bad decisions of BB.

@ amjad.malik,

Very nice articles, especially the first one, and I feel sorry for those people who totally changed their perception about BB as she died. It is very tragic the way she died, but this doesnot change the facts that she was very corrupt.

@chussain,

I guess, you just want everybody to believe what you believe in and dont want to understand the other person’s point of view.

ok, now you are saying that all the western media and Pakistani media were wrong when they accused BB of corruption? Your rebuttlle was that no corruption issues were proved, obviously, when you come back on NRO after spending years fighting corruption cases in London and swiss courts.

If I take the same anology that none of the corruption cases have been proved against BB, then I can say that Army, Musharraf, MQM, Q-league, JUI, PML-N etc…. are not corrupt either, (when we all know that they are,) as none of the cases have been made or verdicted against them . So, I came to conclusion that, you dont make sense at all.

I am not trying to play God (God Forbid), and this makes me think that you are very good at calling names and calling people Gaddar, traitor, Qatil etc.. if they dont agree with you. Grow up and use arguments to prove your point rather than scare people from their uncommited sins like an illiterate Mullah.

@c hussain

You are wasting your time. These are die hard Anti-Bhutto, they can go to any level with hatred. They are the folks who do not believe in democracy, as according them common person cannot elect the “right” person. They keep forgetting that its duty of awam to elect or reject her.

They start a discussion with “LOCKED UP” mind, and does not matter what your arguments are.

the international media, indian media in particular, is highlighting ISI’s role in BB’s death. They are constantly talking about the flip flops of the pakistan government. Mush is in trouble and this delay in elections will be used to buy time, and the US as usual has said that if delay in elections is temporary than it might be ok.

probing fund is so far the most strong story and some analogy can be made with oghdri case (August 10 blasts), however its seems too premature that BB will be in power to do those things. it seems to be more than preemptive so the actual reason may be something else.

Point to Ponder:

From BB’s Last Speech - Dec 27, 2007:
“Why should foreign troops come in? We can take care of this, I can take care of this, you can take care of this,”

Mush’s Last Act before BB Assasinated - Dec 27, 2007:
More Special Forces To Pakistan

By the way how many of you were aware of the fact — thus admitted — that there were U.S. Special Forces already present in Pakistan???

In light of my post above, please also read this excellent piece by John Chuckman…
BHUTTO, BUSH, AND MUSHARRAF

Was BB only being used as a pawn to get Mush to do Washington’s bidding?????

My guess is that army is still showing resistance to some US demands telling them that unless some civilian government having public opinion and support agrees we (army) cant do those alone. Now BB might have assured those demands and army might have seen this as putting them (army ) in trouble. So they took this decision.

Now the question is what are those demands? AQ khan accessibility is now not an issue as US intelligence have different stand on Iran nuclear program. keeping in view Mush, backed by the army, as gorbachev, you people should try to guess those demands where army can still resist.

@Ahmed Bhai
Please see my to posts above. My point is it seems Mush has already given in to those demands.

nota:
what is said in election comping is not taken that seriously by officials as all know that politicians have practically different policy than public speeches.

She made a strong statement regarding CJ restoration as well but practically she negated.

Now the second point you mention is worthy but again will there be any threshold l or not of army resistance to the US demands. If no then why army would exist in longterm and kill anyone in short term as they are the better servant themselves?

Democratic ppl of PPP you dont even deserve to use the word Democrasy.

The whole nation is grieved about the death of a national leader and you are trying to cash her blood for a win in elections.
Shame on you.
What cold hearted and corrupt ppl were surrounding benazir I now come to understand.
Actually these ppl (Zardari and Co.) were in the most part responsible for her downfall.

as an argument I would say BB can be used more times as part of carrot and stick policy rather one time use.

So as the article says One could fairly say that her assassination just proves how little Washington policymakers understand the region. It sent her to her death, desperately hoping against hope to get what it wanted

I would rather say that learning from afghanistan and iraq where the US has one of their chosen men having no roots in country and requires heavy security, unlikely in Pakistan they selected carefully the main stream political leader.

So army killed that source and signaled fulfill one more demand thinking that army can still handle the US forces and this decision, changing their threshold but getting rid of future pressure from the US in form of BB.

@Admin
Thanks for removing that Ahmed Quraishi trash. Here his his a taste of his latest:
“As a Pakistani citizen, I have not seen the wounds on Mrs. Bhutto’s body and I could not have vouched for Islamabad if not for the astounding and strong statement by the spokesman of the federal Interior ministry.”

@Ahmad Bhai
Certainly. I am saying that in the the light of the following:
“Ms Bhutto had sent a written complaint to a senior State Department official saying that her camp no longer viewed the backstage US move as a good-faith effort towards democracy.

Instead, it was seen as an attempt to preserve the politically endangered Mr Musharraf as US President George W. Bush?s man in Islamabad, she wrote….”

“Distraught by the lack of US interests in her protection, Ms Bhutto began to distance herself from the US-backed power-sharing arrangement, the Post said….”

from here

Why you people are wasting your time by commenting on non-issues? BB finally reache her end.
Whatever was wrong about her could not be made right after her sorrowful death. It is better to keep quiet rather than justifying her every act.
You can not ignore the corruption factor associated to Zardari and Co because of her tragic death.
ISI doing rigging and knoweldge of their plans with BB and other political party leaders is not a big news at all. These rigging tactics are highlighted only when they are utilized AGAINST and never when these are FOR the same politicians.
In a democracy as in Pakistan, most of the people in urban areas do not vote because this political process does not bring any change to them, whether it were two tenures of NS or BB. And not even with Mush’s longest reign in the last 20 years. But Mush has a few extra credits. He created miles among different categories of Muslims by naming them moderates and extremists, and the resulting absence of security to general public.

O dont be fool by such propaganda always created from west, thats what exactly they want a ground that they can utilise in future.
An unstable Pakistan is their future plan and such news are catalysts. we must not ignore western hand in such acts, they did first with bhutto because he was uniting muslim countries, BCCI, OIC conference, pak nuclear programme were just the beginning, then zia because he though out the afghan war blackmailed US and secretly build weapon pile and continued nuclear prog ojhri camp was his deception to portray that all his pile destroyed in fact pak armed forces are still majorly based on that era weapons like f16, SP artillery, and air defence etc. (ref: conspiracy hierarchy; committee of 300)
then comes asif janjua(not sure but majority of analyst believes that his death was not natural), mushaf mir died because he refused to give one of the pak’s most strategic airbases to US to attack Afghanistan, including Jacobabad base, which later were been full handed over to them but after his death.
There might be so many other, just look at present situation in Iraq, they created this mess intentionally and not one day, week or month or not in a year they planned that after first Iraq war that they will take every drop of oil in Iraq, then they created even bigger mess by building hatred among shia and suni which gives them even more suitable reason to stay there until the every well get dry. All of the oil rigs taken over by American companies like Halliburton, and now even wheat seeds are importing from America for argi business,
bluffing the illiterate leaders like ours is not a problem for them, look what had happened after her death none of the ppp leader stopped their workers in first two days. She did not done any good in her first two tenure neither the nation learned after her death. And look at the level of political wisdom of these politicians they made a 19 year old as party leader and even changed his name so they can bluff people on the name of his grandfather. What a shame
and this is not just ppp, every political party in pak is same. Now after her death they blaming each other, asking for UN to make a commission, shame on them that they do not accept govt report but they will accept govt result of election. What they are up to? Creating a bigger mess? When every Pakistani fighting with each other? And Mush has done everything that he could ever possible do to please his lords, but look what he got in end a bone without flesh, and even now he is still the same stubborn kid who this beautiful garden with every possible way he could.
I don’t know but i am looking a very tough future of pak in near future. In Iraq they attacked for oil, but in Afghanistan their objectives are different and pak is also in that same scope. And in such situation they can easily make a reason. Where we are standing? Do we have any idea?
Just yesterday I come across some videos on youtube and before tham i didnot knew about a true leader who can atleast speak truth which none of muslim leader ever dare to. Mr. George Galloway after listening his four debates my heart was crying that where we, as muslim stand, a non-muslim is defending for us. What a shame, what a real shame for us.
When we will learn? When we will unite when we live like brothers, or we fight each other like beasts like ever since. Why we forget so easily that how they ruled the world in past which they are using on us yet again ‘divide and rule’

Rubbish at it’s peak ! More and more conspiracy theories nothing more and nothing less. She was a great leader and a representative of the federation and in death she has washed away her sins but let’s not be so short sighted and have memories of not more than 5 seconds..

Long Live Pakistan !

@sher dil

No offense, but purpose of your long blabbering was?

please think with open mind, people always blame army and isi, please look into the reasons and logics first. bb, nawaz and then chowdhries used isi in past when they were in power. they never made police stronger rather make their fav generals as backups.

at the moment our political system is like a public toilet whose flush is not working since ages but every user had used it, now we need a cleaner first before letting anyother used to shit around.

people like imran khan, who dare to speak truth, and who keep their words. untill last month i liked nawaz but not anymore. even after so may years in exile he still the same and so are others

It seems that both Mush and BB were trying to outbid each other in serving the West Masters. I think we will remain in the abyss until we can act ONLY on our own with Pak interest at the front. See how all ambassadors and foriegn statesmen are dictating how we should act. Its disgraceful. Also for the politicians who are not only allowing but actually inviting such interferences.

Look at the independent foriegn policy of India which has successfully played USSR against the US to reap windfall benefits from both sides. How did they do it. By genuine democracy. Its easier to twist the tail of a single person than convince an entire parliament. See Turkey contemptuously refuse the 30billion as their own national interest was more important.

Bhutto had “proof� state, spy agency rigging poll KARACHI, Jan 1 (Reuters):

Benazir Bhutto was poised to reveal proof that Pakistan’s election commission and shadowy spy agency were seeking to rig an upcoming general election the night she was assassinated, a top aide said Tuesday. Senator Latif Khosa, who authored a 160-page dossier with Bhutto documenting rigging tactics, said they ranged from intimidation to fake ballots, and were in some cases unwittingly funded by U.S. aid. Bhutto had been due to give the report to two visiting U.S. lawmakers over dinner on Dec. 27, the day she was killed in a suicide bombing. “The state agencies are manipulating the whole process There is rigging by the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence), the election commission and the previous government, which is still continuing to hold influence. They were on the rampageâ€? Khosa, a top Bhutto aide and head of her Pakistan People’s Party election monitoring unit, told Reuters. (Posted @ 15:20 PST)

To those, whose only argument against Benazir and Zardari’s corruption is that the government was never able to prove it in eight years, is that it is always the general perception that counts. For example, has Ch. Shujaat, or Pervaiz Elahi, or Musharraf, or almost all of the army generals (except may be a couple) have ever been convicted of any crime? But most of you openly allege them of corruption. Most of you allege army of misappropriation of US funds when most of the time US provides those funds in the form of weapons and other things. Also these funds are being used to pay off the families whose memebers die in suicide attacks.

Coming back to the point, it isn’t easy to “prove” cases against such personalities because they are so powerful. This fact can be verfied by the worldwide outcry over the Benazir’s assassination. And even if they are convicted nobody believes it. Nawaz Sharif was convicted and sentenced of hijacking case. Are you willing to believe that the conviction was justified? So the moral of the story is that we don’t want to believe our ideals are doing anything wrong.

And to those who think that Zardari was in some hellhole during his eight year of imprisonment, that is simply not true. First of all these kind of people get A class or a minimum of B class which means a clean room with attached bath and a servant who takes care of the prisoner. Additionally Zardari spent around 20 million rupees to upgrade his cell and felt quite at home during those eight years. My first cousin’s husband is suprintendant jail (he was then a deputy but has been recently promoted) and he told us that he could write a book about how much fun Zardari had during those eight years, the least of which was arranging regular dance events (aka mujras) from various actresses in the jail. He couldn’t have got those at home. All these things are known facts but we just don’t want to believe them.

Musharraf government delays Pakistani election until February

first zialul haq and then Mush made jihadis so strong that police can not handle them. it used to be klashnikov culture and now succide bombs. unfortunately ISI has played major roles behind all this. If army has any vision or rather long term vision they would have saved pakistan from the longlasting effects of their secret acts. However, $ plays an important role and army is no different. At one side nation is heavily inflicted with Indian culture and on the other side its jihadi factor. the nation is really at extremes. the game that army is trying to play will not save pakistan as it did not save east pakistan.

solution: the more tiers you have more time it takes to break. with army in frontline all tiers have already broken and its really hard to to take from front and survive.

Saima khan: tall with some sense. living abroad is never like living in home in your own country and you talk about jail? no matter how much it equipped with facilities its was jail after all.

The moment of truth has arrived for ISI/Army including the General (Retd.) Musharraf. Today 12 US congressmen has asked Bush’s establshment to pressurise Pakistan for a UN inquiry commission in BB’s death.
It seems that Army is going for a tactical retreat in the next couple of months. Bad news for Mush’s lovers

@Saima Khan

There is a general perception on this forum that you are an ISI agent. And it is a known fact that you are a boot liker of military establishment.

@sher-dil and saima

What is the point of posts if you can only list the problems faced by Pakistan. My specific question is for Saima, why cannot army (since it is all powerful and in control) let give people a fair chance, as they have done in 1970?

What problems do you see if we do want democracy in Pakistan. I don’t care how much corrupt politicians are, in a real election these guys wil never get a chance.

yes pejamistri: read this together with hilary clinton statement that foreign office has to dismiss it. this is certainly going to pressurize and Mush is good in accepting pressures in the end.

@ahmed bhai
Why regarding the years spent in jail by Zardari be pronounced that much. Talking of being convicted or not? People have been abducted, sent to prison and tortured without any evidence and without being convicted. Do you know the name of any. For jiyalas, during the 6 years of PPP from 1988 to 1999, did they convict any agency or amy person for the crimes during 1977~1988. If they could not be convicted, so weren’t the political leaders during the last 8 years. These leaders are so powerful with backing from all around the world incuding the agencies and the army, that they will never be trialed anywhere and will find a way out somehow or the other. Does this fact make them angels free of corruption and inhuan acts. Only common people convicted of petty crimes will be sent to prison and punished.

I hope PPP can steer clear of the mistakes made by BB. This is not to smear the name of a dead person, but to remain objective enough to see history in true perspective and to learn from past mistakes and correct.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/01/opinion/edahmed.php

Due to a different policy with respect to other parties, BB was feeling that her enemies won’t like her stay for long. She could sense her opposition within the government and also within the Islamists. She knew that she could be targetted and had apprehensions about her security were pretty much pronounced in every session.
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/106156.html

Tanweer Amjad:
I just said that jail is jail no matter how comfortable it is. you might took it wrong.
Why always look at extremes? praising one does not mean making him/her angel.

It may have saved her life but it was political suicide for her to be guarded by Israeli guards. I think she just lost her mind in the end.

My point is that in the state when you can not trust your government and agencies, and when you are asking foreign agencies to help in your security, and while you have so much power in the public, millions of people could gather for you, why didn’t you start the move against that government. did you need elections for that? First throw off the illegitimate government. Because you never truested the election commission. why wait for the sham elections? And waste so much money and the precious time, since the more time current setup rules, the worse it is for the nation. Same goes true for NS. He should first throw out the government, then go for elections.

The fact is that 80 percent of the seats belong to NS and PPP in any election, however rigged they could be. It is not 2002.

@tanweer amjad

Million of people can come out and throw the government. The problem was PPP was not willing to do that. That movement can always turn violent and bloody, BB was also expecting that Mush will create problems for her party (How Naive).

On the other hand, PML-N has voters, but they are not willing to come out and get beaten by police (Ok thats me and people like me). The other leaders who can really mobilize masses are (Aitezaz, Kurd, Justice Tarq, Wajih and others), govt is keeping them under house arrest.

This leaves election is only way to throw this illegal government out. Government wil try to delay the inevitable, but eventually it has to give up. It will be time for one last U-Turn by Musharraf.

Breaking News: (05:07pm EST)

According to CNN North America, they have the secret file with solid evidence that Benazir Bhuttu was about to make public. It include strong evidence that US money is being used for election rigging and violence by the ISI.

It will be disclosed shortly on CNN Situation Room by Wolf Blitzer.

@Riddle 792
Could you please tell me when Wolf Biltzer show will be telecasted.
Does anybody know if the said program comes on cnn europe?

Since no one has been convicted corrupt in court .. so no one is ocrrupt in Pkaistan. Not BB, not , NS, not choudries, not mush , not army , not altaf .. no one is corrupt… .. as quite a few people now say on this forum .. if you have proof give me one evidence
Yeah, people hear it loud and clear .. no one of them is corrupt. it’s the poor people who hug up all the money and now pretending to be poor…
No one has killed anyone… it’s the poor people who kill each other and then try to blame these angels .
All of them are very patriotic and loyal to the country …. so loyal that they don’t even want to burden Pakistan with their wealth, so normally they amass it outside.
They are so pious that they don’t want to bother anyone else with the civic duty of serving the public, so they try to bother someone from their own family not the ordinary public at all
Not tell me what else you want from them .. common.. GOD give them the strength to continue in the same manner to serve our nation so humbly and faithfully
If I am wrong on anything bring me one evidence ..

pejamistri:

I am not sure about

Breaking News: (05:26pm EST)
pejamistri:

I am not sure about CNN Europe but the program is on air right now on CNN North America. She sent the file to two US Congressman and the CNN has recieved a copy of it. Remember CNN Situartion Room with Wolf Blitzer was the program that broke the news of the email that BB sent to Mark Seigel her lobbyist in Washigton DC to be disclosed if she gets killed to make Musharaf responsible for her death.

It seems on this board there are different groups who are supporting either Musharaf, BB, NS, Imran Khan, Ahtatazaz Ahsan or Altaf Hussain.

I am sure you all want to see Pakistan as a better state butyou failed to understand that none of these people can solve the problems of Pakistan. Only people who can solve the problems are middle class leadership. It is unfortunate that we dont have any middle class leadership in the country. They have banned the student politics, so there is no more middle class leadership in the country.
Pakistan has been controlled by establishment and will always be under their control. BB’s muder was a clear message to all the other leader. This was a message that if someone would try to work independently and against the establishment’s interest, the price is going to be the same.

Bottom line, Pakistan continue to be a failed state and things will always be the same!!

@Riddle 792
Thanks for the information. Unfortunately it is not coming on CNN in Europe, previously they did show Situation Room in which Wolf spoke with Mark Seigle.

@siqbal00

Do not give up hope, things will have to change. You know why change is necessary? because things must change to stay the same.

05:32pm EST:

The file was given to US Congressmen Arlen Specter and Patrick Kennedy. She did not get a chance to give it to US congressmen Joe Beiden and Hilary Clinton. CNN has a copy of it.

Brig Rashid Qureshi calls it a pack of lies on CNN.

Brig Rashid Qureshi on CNN:

“Musharf will address the nation tomorrow (Wednesday) on this issue.”

sic5770

I agree with your post .. and I believe @econfused shared similar thoughts earlier. It’s the middle class, civil society or non-political fronts who can provide some relief from this mess.
Unfortunately as you can read from most of the posts, majority have chosen their gods and they are not going to change their view point on it
To some mush is angel, to some BB was directly descended from heavens to help Pakistan, to some amir-ul momineen NS is the solution. Few have fav choudries as messiahs and then few things messiah is back in the shape of altaf . They all conveniently forget the past and history of these folks. Short term memory dilemma or purposefully propaganda .. it’s hard to decide

Yes siqbal100, it is sad to see so many smart and intelligent people wasting so much time to defend their beloved gods, they have been writing detailed posts to defend these gods but they failed to understand the basic issue of Pakistan’s politics.

Pakistan is always going to be a sick patient, who would be keep alive just like a patient in the hospital on I/V fluids. We would never allow to eat the regular food. So please stop fighting here on message boards!!

@siqbal00 and sic5770:

Now with news anchors like Talat, and Kahsif Abbas (Though I havent seen any of his program, I dont have ARY). Site like pkpolitics (I know it seems like pro NS, but it can change, or some other site can pop up) and lawyers community along with deposed judges wil keep the movement alive. Now these guys has give a hope for Pakistan, but please do not expect a change in days. This is a movement of middle class, and I can see a different Pakistan in distant future.

Regardless how great Mush 8 years were according to some people (I seriosuly disagree), people like change. I can give an analogy in cell phones. Every person I have seen changes his phone, just to get the new model.

Assuming we do elect someone, we would still like to get rid of him in next election.

In the by-product of change, if we can get rule of law, that will be like “Sonay Pay Sohaga”

@econfused

I very much agree with you. Bashing one or two elements will not give us anything. We need to look forward and adopt a strategy on core principles. The core principle should be democracy and rule of law. The party or entity elected to represent should itself believe in it. Has the courage to induct the same in it’s own rank before claiming to get for the country

Now the question is what we can do. As we have seen Pakistan can also have candle light vigils (A pure western import, i don’t se any thing wrong with that). Can we start a campaign of Post cards to “Free Aitezaz” to interior ministry?

I know phone calls might not make a difference. I know post cards, can’t do any thing, but may be after a million post cards, some body might think.

I know we cannot expect an orange revolution in Pakistan or can we?

@siqbal00 and sic5770,
Time and environment create leadership. We need an escape and slightly favorable environment in which our country could develop real leadership. So currently we are not running for and ideal or godfather, but at least a less bad option which could only smooth the path of education and justice besides its corruption. I think we should refrain from expecting anything from our political leadership as they didn’t give anything to the mass ever, beside Quaid and few in the beginning. Now the only remedy I could see is the education in general.

What I have seen instead of poor turn-up by urban people the rural areas participate a lot. These people are innocent, who vote according to the consent of LAMBURDAR, police inspector or chowdhary, without knowing the consequence. So I always pray from Allah that mercy us and bless us in a way that our people and young generation get education. That could bring the change, because for leadership and revolution you need people and the available options are spoiled by the mechanism which has been assembled by our leaders ‘’armed and political’’.

So presently we have to choose less bad option out of all these available, so called perfectionist and honest politicians.

http://nawaiwaqt.com.pk/urdu/daily/jan-2008/02/columns2.php

A must read article by Aftab Iqbal (although at times i dont like his way) because it gives the inside story that probably there would be a more closer nexus between Zardari, Musharraf and Amin Fahim

Nawaz Sharif has been used again and Q league has made to survive on their own -

Musharraf likely to stay with Zardari and Amin Fahim in seat - losing parties most likely both leagues.

Amjad Malik

It was not BB who used that PM house but it was used by Nawaz Sharif and it was designed and okayed in first tenure of NS and used in second tenure of NS

Therefore it is not possible that she should be blamed for everything which goes wrong.

We should look for the future. Right or wrong she is gone now and is not with us anymore.

@c. hussain

Nothing is written in stone. To make government, PPP still need simple majority, and I doubt PPP will be able to do that without PMLQ or PMLN. I also don’t think PMLQ will give up without giving a solid fight (read Rigged in rural punjab).

Aftab Iqbal is too simplistic. He just appears to be against NS. Nothing logical in his column (or nothing that I can see)

My personal opinion is that Musharraf is waiting for cracks to show up in PPP, which are hidden so far.

I believe most of people on this forum are expats, we should contact our consulates with emails and letters. Probably even a better idea will be to contact our elected representatives (congressman, senators) and urge them to raise the voice on your behalf. I have found this pretty effective in the past. If we ask senators and congressman to write letter on your behalf , it will have lot more weight.
We can put together one standard format or petition for convenience

Mera Pakistan

All I am saying that there is no point accusing someone who is dead now and let the gones be bygones.

Yes we should now focus on Zardari what he does because he is alive and we can criticise his action.

About Western media they still want us to believe that Taleban killed BB so that they can use that reason and get people behind Musharraf to take action against them and that has backfired and now they are trying to get to ISI because they basically want to destroy Pakistan.

@c. hussain

Do you know why they are trying to get to ISI? Its because ISI muddles with election. They don’t hide it either. You can recall Hameed Gul saying on record that he created IJI.

If every institution can stay within their boundary lines. Every institution goes way out to “Save Pakistan”. Don’t you think that now time has come and we can say “enough is enough”?

@chussain

altleast this column provides food of thought for all those who were saying .. wah wah zardari took the bull by horn. He did not hold anything back and went after the establishment without anything hiding … you know, who I am talking about … unless there is short term memory issue here also

c hussain
atleast the western media is questioning Mush and his motives. There is a threat to Mush from the international media, imagine if Mush had no such fear, what would he do? Sadly, our army has run the country its way. India and China are conducting a military exercise , they say that we are professional armies; in contrast to them what is our army upto. The civil intelligence spies on high ranking civil officers, IB in turn keeps an eye on these civil intelligence agencies and MI keeps a watch on IB and ulltimately all are watched by the Great ISI. What is this, why most of the generals who retire , write books and admit that ISI plays a substantial role in civil life.

Physicians Coerced by Military

http://www.juancole.com/2008/01/musharrafs-watergate-physicians-coerced.html

A video about above story containing some details about document
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/01/01/todd.pakistan.bhutto.dossier.cnn

Geo News
The US congress has written a letter to Condoleza rice regarding pak situation in which they have made clear that if US govt doesn’t ask Mush to hold elections on time, Pak military aid can face more sanctions. They also said that US govt’s statements regarding bhutto that it was pak’s internal matter, is not the stance to taken.

to get a simple majority, PPP needs 136 seats ( talking abt direct deats only) and that is not easy even in this sympathy wave.

In sindh, there are 61 seats in total and out of thse 61 ,there are 43 seats where PPP is in real contest ( excluding 2 urban hyderabad and 16 seats of karachi, they still have some chance on 4 seats of karachi). out of these 43 seats, 2 seats of tharparkar ( arbab ghulam rahim area) are highly unlikely to go to PPP even now. same is true for soe other seats but lets suppose PPP can win all these seats, meaning 41 seats from Sindh at maximum.

IN NWFP and Punjab, sympathy vote will make a difference only where there is close contest of 100/90. becasue in rural areas election and voting dynamics are different.
Moreoever in many areas they dont have gud candidates to convert it winning a seat. For example NA-48, mazhar qureshi returned PMLQ ticket, waited for couple of days and then joined PMLN. on this seat there is NO PPP candidate. mazhar qureshi had inclined to join PPP a few months back but then as things tilted to PMLQ in the mean time, he stayed in PMLQ. For him based on constiuency politics also, joing PPP was IN OBVIOUS better option as he resigned also after BBs assisination, but in the end he found it politically not feasible in his area to join PPP.

Other point is that as that the sympathy vote factor will impact PMLN to minimum, specially after NS actions/steps etc after BBs assisination and in Punjab, in many areas contest is PMLN vs PMLQ and there overall benficary will b PMLN any way.

Sympathy vote factor will count moslty in urban areas but as in these areas , for example in lahore(mostly if not all) difference of votes of PMLN to PMLQ or PPP is too big to be effected by sympathy voters.

If elections are posponed, then definitely PMLQ will try their best get out of this ( as that is the sole purpose of thsi dleay).

Robert Fisk tells the truth.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article3291600.ece

Question: Who forced Benazir Bhutto to stay in London and tried to prevent her return to Pakistan? Answer: General Musharraf.

Question: Who ordered the arrest of thousands of Benazir’s supporters this month? Answer: General Musharraf.

Question: Who placed Benazir under temporary house arrest this month? Answer: General Musharraf.

Question: Who declared martial law this month? Answer General Musharraf.

Question: who killed Benazir Bhutto?

Er. Yes. Well quite.

You see the problem? Yesterday, our television warriors informed us the PPP members shouting that Musharraf was a “murderer” were complaining he had not provided sufficient security for Benazir. Wrong. They were shouting this because they believe he killed her.

We as a nation get manipulated very easily. We have short memory and we make our judgements solely on the basis of our sentiments. All these leaders who we used to call corrupt, theives, thugs etc… are hero of today. Once, they again come into power, we start calling them names and would want them to quit. Just to topple anyone who comes into tje power after sometime is not the solution. same people come into power again and again and do the same thing they did in theiir previous term and always keep the environment of agitation in the parlianment. I remember when NS was in power BB didnt even want to sit with him or speak with him and vice versa.

70% of our population lives in villages who are very poor and illiterate, who live on the land of these political land lords and place where votes and faith are bougth. These poor ppl dont have any other choice rather to vote for these land lords, even when they dont want to. Thats why same old faces come to the parlianment again and again. 30% of the people are literate and even among them there are people with blind faith as we see on this forum.

To change Pakistan, first of all we need education. We also need to remember our past and learn from it and make our judgements on the basis of merit rather being sentimental judgments. Until then, Pakistan ka yahi haal rahey ga aur hum maar khatey rahein gay.

Mera Pakistan, first of all great post and I agree with some of your points and will make some of my points but first let me add some line on this post:

“30% of the people are literate and even among them there are people with blind faith as we see on this forum.”

On this forum, we dont have representation of just 30% but this is the cream of Pakistan who post here. People who come and post are suppose to be the top notch educated and earned degrees from all over the world and look at their views and sentiments about some of the politicians.

How come anybody can have any good things about BB, NS or Musharaf? What they have done or given to Pakistan? These people have had all the chances in their hand but they have done nothing except put the country in more misery and sorrows.

interesting article

Quaid E Azam, “Qatal League” and PMLQ

http://tinyurl.com/2pj6ub

We as a nation should analyse, overall who did more construction and destruction of the fabric of the nation.

I n 60 year history of Pakistan, the Army generals ruled 30 years and only 3 i.e. Ayub, Zia and Musharaf. These generals had unadultrated and absolute power.

Innumerable (probably 10 or 12) politicians ruled 30 years as well with disability and limitations due to obstructive agencies, army, ISI and sometimes opposition.

How is it that we always end up blaming the politicians and no one ever openly blames the Generals, ISI or government agencies.

The only thing is that the dictators including musharaf have nurtured these sharks i.e. mullahs, mqm and Q league and used them as B-team and leave these snakes as problems for Pakistan.

Ever since musharaf came to power, he has been defaming the state in the capacity of its head. Selling to the whole world that Pakistanis are terrorists just to prolong his rule.

Imposition of emergency/martail law by him was a no confidence in his own governance as he is the head of state.

Zia gave us Klasinkov, heroin and poppy generals in the army.

Musharaf has given us suicide bombings, anarchy and is personally responsible for destroying the judicaiary, media and the hopes of an entire nation.

These generals performance started with the murder of Liaqat Ali Khan, Fatima Jinnah, Bhuttos. Victimistaion of Nawaz Sharif, Judiciary, Media, A Q Khan, Civil society and the list is endless.

@khosa

I totally agree. People on this forum say Army is sacred cow, and we should not blame it. Question is why not?

@ econfused
i think many people just think by removing Mush everything will be back to normal, but the fact is system needs to be changed not the faces. Specially the common people back home realize that the army is no good but can’t do anything.

@pijamistri
who install Mush and let him be in power for such a long time? answer: west
who made jihadis and alqaida’s existance in pak propoganda? ans: west
who projected b as saviour of pak? ans: west
who did best to let bb and nawaz to return? answer west

west had projected in world media that only solution to pak crises was BB even before her arrival. and she came here after west-mush negotiations and is heavily funded but them like they dd with mush. so what you expect from such politicians?

they use them as toilet paper and after that not even bother to flush rather wait to see how they smell like.

look at iraq they did the same made brothers to fight against, now such event in pak will only make another sweet dish for them. as i said earlier in iraq they were only after wealth but pak’s geographical location is very tectical. and you believe america in afghanistan is only to get rid of taliban.

the neo-cons had bluffed their own nation while attacking iraq, by portraying saddam was crual leader, he funded alqaida, had nukes etc. so the people can support the attack and they did but nothing was ever prooved to be true.

and my only concern is that these selfish mean politicians are still fighting to get more out of election investement. nobody look serious for this nation than few and majority of them are not taking part in elections because they are on right, right on revial of judiciary first. but the corrupts go for elections.

they did not support the rule of law even, and the loyal and honest judges are suffering because of their selfish policies, hell to all of them. if they cannot support the rule of law now how you can imagine they will do in future.

‘if they have deceive us once, shame on them. if twice, shame on all of us”

guys, let me tell the open secret that is so obvious behind the murder of BB. By listening to Zardari’s press conf. there were few clues that he left who is behind this murder. You guys must review his press conference and add the broken links and finally you willl realize that It is ZARDARI himself behind the murder of BB. his wife. He is the one who has been informing the disgruntled establishment and ISI about BB’s moves and he compromised all BB’s efforts with establishment as long as long he gets a share of the piece of the pie. Now go and figure this out yourself. Time will definitely point finger at him Inshallah. There is no extremist or others except himself. ZARDARi. Read the latest Makhdoom’s comments to outside new media that from now on Zardari will rule PPP and eliminate all the BB supporters.

@all

Lets make sure “jaltarang” is on “investigation team”. He seems real smart and figured it all out.

@Sher Dil

Long blabbering, nothing new. Do you even know that you don’t give any solution, except list the problems?

Guys,
reason I am saying this is because Mkhdooms comments basically connected all those faded links that among them we could easily ignore the obvious bold writings. If Makhdoom say zardari will bring in his cronies and eliminates the BB loyalists. there is some solid substance to point ginger at him After about 8-9 years of no 10% bukhshish, he is probably broke with his lavish life. Plus this could be the life time opportunity for him to enjoy the loot among the biggest looters, specially the numbers BB has been identifying for some times about $10 Bln a yr US money coming.. He realized he can not miss this opportunity forever.

@Jultarang

Where go Anti-PPP find people? How you come up with a $10Bln a year number? Do you even know that if Democrat win elections, there will be no more cash. The cash will be there with more stringent controls.

Also I don’t think he is broke, he has allegedly made more money, which is good for generations.

Its the lust for power which bring these people. Please stay honest. For the record, I am not a Jiyala. I just have my strong opinions for people who fabricate.

i dont think if bb was going to extrude the floating rigging agenda to anyone as, her part of participations were obvious and energetic rather than encompassing the established dhandali programs; except some political sentences that are traditional . however, if her intentions were to display the rig, then what happened, when she couldn’t continue the slogans for the independent of judiciary. it was clear that she didn’t wanna mess around with the bestowed Nro. i think musharaf