By allowing Americans, Musharraf did what BB was planning to do in Pakistan. The only thing which Musharraf still has to do to fulfill BB’s dream is to handover AQ to CIA so that they can put him in orange suits in Gitmo camp and toture him forever.

Allah hafiz Pakistan………………

The Destabilization of Pakistan

@ Penguin

I disagree with u that BB wanted to allow US forces and handover AQ.

Mush doesnt have to hand AQ becuase US forces will get him by themselves now.

@Penguin,

I agree with you. Mush, PPP, NS etc… they all are same, no one is sincere with Pakistan. They come to power with the “AAshirbaad” of USA and then start working on the american agenda.

it is an old article published nov 15th. this means couple of developments have taken place together. what bb would or would not have done cannot be predicted but mush had finalized the agreement much before

@Farooq,

NS is labeled as someone who does not want to please west.

Check the following article:

Nawaz Sharif tried to endear himself to Pakistan’s people with populist policies and did little to please the United States and other foreign allies

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/01/asia/AS-GEN-Pakistan-Sharif-Rising.php

Penguin, BB never wanted to hand AQ to US. But only wanted that world should know the real story of AQ and why he was house arrested. Pakistan Army General earned millions and they made AQ the scapegoat. And that is reason AQ is not allowed to talk by Pakistan Army.

US is giving Pakistan Army 1.2 Billion dollar a year since 9/11 where is this money why it is not showing up on the street of Pakistan.

Every one has to remember ,specially the leader of PPP that MUSH is dictator and ruling the country with his Junta.

Yea and I wonder what that was when he ran to Bill Clinton during the Kargil conflict and withdrew from all the very strategic positions captured.

No elected political leader could ever have allowed this, if its true. Be it NS or BB. The reason is that every decision is taken by the parliament and an elected government fears that the people will eat them alive if they do something like this, so they come up with a way beneficial to both US and Pakistan, but a dictator is very easily influenced because he doesnot come with the mandate of the people. In US Mush’s son tells everyone that how is father is saving pakistan from disasters, how can anyone be so shameless.

@secular,

You must be joking. Do you think Musharraf really snatched Kargil from India? Even China turned against Pakistan for violation of Line of Control set by United Nations during Kargil misadventure where Mush got his 4,000 fellows killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_war

I have seen quite a few ppl on PKPOLITICS who are so naive and innocent in their thoughts and they think of others more naive than them.

So please say something positive and stop these hopeless comments about Pakistan, keep in mind the larger interst, not the petty affiliations you have with one group, party or leader.

By spreading hoplessness among Pakistanis you are only serving their agenda.

@secular_pakistan
Are u trying to justify Mush’s adventures in kargil. Did u look at the world media at that time? Pakistan was being considered a terrorist state with an army that operates on its own.Even if we accept NS was a traitor then why the great Mush hasn’t formulated an independent commission to probe into the matter? the reason is that pak army was playing dirty at a time when pakistan was not in the good books. Why Mush now is even ready to take back the claim from kashmir? He is on record to say that. Army is the problem. Corrupt, covetous civilian leaders are much better than a rogue, stubborn and and obdurate dictator.

After giving $ 10 billion to Musharaf’s Govt, allowing the dictator Musharaf to rule the country for 9 years, If anybody here is surprised with the news that Mush allows the US forces to move freely in Pakistan is living in the fools paradise.

I wouldn’t be surprised if I heard the news that US has full control in Pakistan nukes.

What to talk of Mush regime. Both BB and NS in past also allowed FBI to hunt Yousaf Ramzi and the one other guy from Balochistan (I am forgetting his name, the one who killed some CIA agents right in front of CIA HQ and then convicted for murder and finally to gallows, May Allah rest his soul in rest and peace, aameen).

yeah i think he was aimal kansi in queta. It was a one of worst decision made by Ns at that time. if mush would allow them to walk freely and begin their crime against humanity that is the capital punishments of civilians then i guess he would also face the consequences.

yeah the brave Aimal Kansi, who had the guts to take his Father’s revenge from CIA.

My friends

BB wanted the UNO to interview/investigate Abdul Qadeer Khan in Pakistan, so that the real culprits could be exposed/caught (top generals of Pak army).

Neither ZAB nor BB or Nawaz Sharif ever would have let foreign forces into Pakistan as it would end their politican careers.

Only dictators who never go for fair elections and rule by force and intimidation can do such acts as they never will be held accountable and are not answerable.

You may differ with my opinion but the principle is that Z A Bhutto was hanged, Nawaz Sharif was thrown abroad, Asif Zardari was in jail for 9 years, A Q Khan is imprisoned for life, Chief justice was slapped on camera and suspended along with 60 judges. All this happened as these people are not above the law or sometimes paid the price for up-holding the rule of law.

Has there ever been a general hanged or humiliated for destroying Pakistan?

Musharaf will sell his soul as well as anything under his commad to hold onto power.

Let us pledge that we as a nation, come what may, will not let him sell out or run from elections.

No matter how rigged the elections are this will further destroy his credibility in the west, as he has none in Pakistan.

My friends Zulm phir Zulm hai, bharta hai to mit jata hai.

Firaun must have thought the same as musharaf, but history tells us that every firaun will be humiliated and no one will quote them except as a bad example.

No one remembers Zia except as a bad example and the same will be musharafs fate.

Keep the hope alive and keep praying.

Now the reason for BB’s death shoudl be obvious. She was not needed anymore, and might not have fulfilled the US wishes since she woudl have come througha parliamentarian form of govt.
Who si behind her death: Now it shoudl be obvious : Mush and his master\

I just wanted to clarify some thing about BB.
I personally watched myself BB interview with fox news in which moderator asked BB if she would allow US army to enter into Pakistan,BB replied that absolutely not (exactly these words she used) as Pakistan army is fully capable to fight terrorism.Right after one week I saw full scale propoganda on this issue.
I did try my best to retreived this old vedio but could not.
I probably will call Foxnew myself and ask for this recording.
Regards,
Munir

Pervez Ellahi is trying to copy NS by playing ethnic politics.
NS raised a slogan “Jag punjabi Jag Teri Pag noon Lag gaya Dagh” and then announcing a Pujab Bank and Punjab TV station during his cheif minister ship.
Munir

@secular_pakistan

For heavens sake think before speaking some non-sense.

Pakistan is not a country where going to war is decided by Prime Ministers, they are rather used at the end to end the wars where army fails.

Do you fairly beleive on one hand a Prime Minister is welcoming Wajpaee in lahore, and on the other hand he is attacking Kargil ?

Please grow up and start reading between the lines. Who do you think was at lost if the issue of Kashmir would minimise ?. Whose budgets were to get affected ?.

It’s a habit of Generals, every now and then they love to jump into some adventures, proving to the nation, well, “We are heros, fighting for you and Kamshimr, bring on more money on us”.

Reality bites, but remeber, Musharraf did not put a case against Nawaz Sharif on Kargin, he rather engineered a case of Hijacking.

If you still don’t understand, then please don’t bother, it’s much above your head.

Agreed. She was not needed by the US .

Mushni namubarak si the best poodle they will ever get.

Pakistan can protect its N-assets: Nawaz Shareef

Nawaz said he had no link to Osama Bin Laden. In fact, the former US administration had links with the Afghan Mujahideen

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=12099

I am enjoying the comments of all anti musharraf ppl here. What frustration. I am sorry for them what they are going through. But I can only pray. May God give you some positive thinking.

…………………..
ismi are you musharaf or his son, because no one with a consience would enjoy the suffering and pain of Pakistanis except those two
…………………

@ismi

what do u expect other than frustration when whole country has been f-messed up by this ——- Pervez who tried to be Kamal pasha (so called ata turk).

@rasheed

In wikipedia anyone can write what they want…i can be bothered to edit the figures as i dont know what actually happened but i would but debate on the figures which i read on wikipedia.

ismi on January 5th, 2008 12:32 am

Guys like you are the delimna of Pakistani nation, who are mere spectators to the nation’s destruction. Happy-go lucky types, may be one of your relatives hasnt been picked up by murky agencies, may be your land hasnt been occupied by thugs like Mons Alahi, may be you have no lack of flour, onions and other edibles which keep missing to benefit powerful and mighty, may be you are not in Pakistan etc. etc. There are thousand of reasons to be disappointed and negative about my friend.

That was for someone in Pakistan.

I would be really dumbstruck if you happen to be from outside Pakistan and NOT have negative mood/sense about country’s conditions. You guys enjoy democracy, equal rights within law, economic freedom and when it comes to Pakistan you keep supporting dictatorships, supression of rights, economic strangulation of masses on the name of fight against terror, trying to project the better image of the country when there is next to nothing good about it, or just burying your head under the sand and pretend nothing is happening.

My friend countries/nations survive on justice and justice alone as long as there is no sense of fairness among the citizens I dont see this federation intact for long. Even if it stays, it is simply not worth saving for. Pakistan was created to make lives better, to enjoy freedom and all basic rights and if these cant be done it is better to disintegerate this country. Pakistan is 160million masses it is not a piece of land which should be held intact no matter what.

Lastly, in order for things to change it is important to realise your position so we can analyse and move forward to a better one. Without getting the sense of dark present and murkier future we can not begin to change it.

So, please stop lecturing about being positive etc. etc. As these are just illusory feelings which cant give us anything. In the meantime, check this link out and let me know your feelings.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-854791386997728455&hl=en-CA

Cheers

Unfortunately, Pakistan is a gone case. Musharraf is only doing what he was always expected to do. No jaws should drop down at such news. I think if I was in Musharraf’s shoes, I would somehow ‘get rid of’ AQ Khan asap. Musharraf would never ever let FBI or any intelligence agency come even near AQ Khan. One wonders how many tales and secrets must be prisnors in his mind. If AQ Khan opens his mouth, God only knows what would happen. Many generals and civil servants would take a sigh of relief the day AQ Khan breathes his last. Being master of extermination what surprises me is that Musharraf hasnt taken care of this matter yet.
Rest of the politicians in Pakistan are simply open for sale. Each one of them has a tag price, beginning from Chaudhry Shujaat to the Chief Justice.
So, I see a smooth sailing for Musharraf as long as he doesnt make any stupid move or have a sudden sudden rush of patriotic blood (which I am sure he doesnt have an ounce of). He is there to stay till 2012 and beyond. Nobody has the guts and nobody would dare challenge him. Hate this state of affairs !!!!

so wats the consensus here?
Is there over-whelming support 4 NS(on as is where is basis)
OR
people here want boy-cotters to come into power?

@Azlone
sometimes its ok to say whatever comes in mind but its not a mandatory thing neither tolerable, like when you begin calling chief justice a politician.
why would you get rid of AQ? just because your master doesn’t like him? or because he shared some information with others?. if that was the case then his teachers should also be arrested who gave him phd lectures.

Nota, whats new, every one in Islamabad know about it. Way communication was destroy after murder of BB was to figure out 2015. It was done in well planed way and only country that come to help was Iran as it has vast investment in Baluchistan.

Please listen very clearfully the cry of Altaf Hussain of Laloo khat after the murder of BB and then listen to Zardari press conference where he said no to Altaf Bhai.

Shahid Kinnare
Memphis TN

901-370-5779

@zenith

Source is business plus, and we all know how credible would that be. It is like @Kinnare interviewing (look above post) Don Altaf. Isnt owner of Business plus a minister in current setup?

I am sure it happened, but how do we know it happened to the extent in the news. Why now all the major newspapers carrying this story?

Pull out your weapons and shoot all the bloody army general’s until the last one is dead. Pakistan is not a country where you protest and someone listen. Make it a bloody lesson for any future generals and establishment. Don’t let them run away, chase them and hunt them.

Akbar Bugti, BB, Abdur rasheed Ghazi, negotiated with Genral Mush and his junta guess what? All the three were killed after the negotiation was over.

Gov NWFP resigned..somethiing is going on ….

Iam not surprised..Mush can do anything to stick to the power, allowing scotland yard is to silence the western powers, clever move mush….

@ econfused
Ur right, but it did happen and iam disappointed some how. i guess when one pins one’s hope on someone, much is expected of him, but we mustn’t forget that NS too had dictatorial tendencies; however, I would still go for him or PPP rather than going for Musharraf and chaudhries, but what if NS and allies, after coming to power go back on their promises which is being predicted by sheikh rasheed? Interesting times ahead , hope pakistan evades these troubled times safely.

Half of our Generals are jihadist and half are western trained agents, that is we
been getting things like hameed gul and musharraf in one plate. Result is both
army and country are in mess. Only thing common between jihadist and western
wing is their conquest and brutality on their own people.

@zulfi
i doubt if maulvi generals are in 50%. if that was the case then they would have done anything to stop musharafs brutality at lal masjid. but none of them did nothing but watched the whole show. they even used phosphorous to burn the hall. what a revenge on such people jinhon nai kise ka sar bhi nahi phara tha.

@ Revivalist

I always enjoy reading your posts. Islamic rule in Pakistan is only a matter of time now. We have tried democracy and army rule long enough to know that both of them are useless and unable to solve the problems of the ordinary people. The people of Pakistan are totally disillusioned with both systems. Before Musharraf came, people had some trust in the army, thinking they are less corrupt than the politicians, but Musharraf and his band of clowns have broken all past records. The West and their agents have now become desperate to stem the rise of Islam, and they are resorting to desperate measures. But vicotry is only and oly for Islam, inshallah the time of Islamic rule in Pakistan is very near now.

jUNAID
Agree with you but they play much more active role in army than their numbers.
I think they are not decisive force but important and vocal one. They are usually
given the tasks where more ideological zeal is required like foreign jihads.

@ zufi

“They are usually given the tasks where more ideological zeal is required like foreign jihads.”

what “foreign jihads” are you talking about? are you sure its Pakistani army you are talking about? all this army knows is to conquer and kill its own people, they have NEVER fought ANY jihad. azad kashmir was liberated by our brave brothers from the tribal areas, which the army is killing these days. 1965 war was imposed on us, which our army lost. in 1971 they killed millions of bengalis, and then humiliated the country with their humiliating surrender to the Indians. Kargil was a misadventure by the Kaala Naag Musharraf to undermine the government of Nawaz Sharif. And the Jihad in Kashmir has been carried out by Kashmiris and other Pakistanis on their own. Now tell me again, which foreign Jihads have you been dreaming about? Please inform us.

@ Traffic

Dear bro it’s very very kind of you that you like my writings. I pray to almighty Allah (saw) that we see this change very soon and see Islam dominated over all other Ideologies and ISMS.

Bro I have made a discussion topic in “discuss” Islam/Khilafah vs Secularism/Democracy
I hope you will enlighten us with your comments.

Regards
Intenationalist1@gmail.com

This is very serious news. By allowing US to operate on the Pakistani side, Musharraf has effectively given the tribal area to United States of America. U.S. agents and commanders will directly deal with tribes to give them incentives (bribes) to kill their own people. U.S. is copying this strategy adapted in Iraq (with some success) where the locals fight with “Al-Qaeda�.

For sure the Pakistani generals will not have their commissions (cut in the deal), which they have been enjoying since last six years. I assume, soon a U.S. Political Agent (with a new sophisticated title) will replace the Pakistani Political Agent.

@ Revivalist

It was interesting to read your long narration but at the same time was surprised to know that you actually think that U.S. is rooting for democracy in Pakistan. They never wanted, still dont, and would never like to see democracy in Pakistan. It is just lip service whatever Condi or Georgi boy says. Analyze the situation from the American president’s perspective. Like anyone, they like a “one window” operation. That is, one phone call to one person and who responds in affirmation. In Pakistan’s case its Musharraf, in Egypt’s case its Hasni Mubarak, in Jordan its King Hasan, in Aghanistan its Karzai and I can go on and on.
For instance, U.S. doesnt have to lobby in the countries above. The dictator is simply told what to do. In other countries like India, South Korea, Japan, etc. U.S. spends millions just to lobby support. Democracies in developing countries are always a headache for U.S.
Finally, as I always say, whats good for them may not be good for us and vice versa. If we study the history of Islam and teachings of Koran, it is hard for me to find a governening concept similar to the present day democracy. (when it comes to religion i always request to correct me if i am wrong). Still, if we are in love with democracy, like everything, democracy too has prerequisites before even trying it out. Unfortunately, we try to take the Masters exam with even doing our bachelors. We are bound to fail.

@Junaid
Plz go back and read my previous comments again. I am sure you didnt understand whatever I was trying to convey.

It was interesting to read some comments about Islam and democracy in Pakistan.
I have some questions for those who are saying that Pakistan needs an Islamic system and not democracy.
1. What is meant by an Islamic system? Who will be the ruler? How will the ruler be selected?
2. When you say islamic, whose system do you mean? The Sunni or the Shia? The Shias, as you know, believe in the divinely inspired Imam who, for many shias, is now-a-days deputed by his deputy. that is how it works in Iran and they call theirs as Islamic System. So please tell me do you mean a Sunni Islamic system or a Shia Islamic system?
3. Also, what si the guarantee that such a system will bring peace and properity to Pakistan? Is there any historical evidence taht it has worked in the past? The only period taht comes close to a just and prosper period, was the 10 years under Prophet (pbuh) in Medinah. As soon as he died, Muslim got divided; Shia, Sunni, Kharijite…and as you know even in the so called Golden Age there were 73 firaqs, every one thinking taht his is the true Islam. The Fitnas took place within 100 yaers of the Prophet’s death. Sahabis were fighting among themselves - battle of Jamal, Sifin are some examples. The three of the first four caliphs were murdered. if one head of state is killed today, we think of taht country as unstable, what should we think of a system in which three heads were killed within 17 years (644-661). It can be said that the fisrt one survived a mudered only beacuse he died within two years of his rule.
4. Who will count as a good ruler? You know that even stalwarts like Hazrat Umer and Hazrat Usman were not liked by many and were felt to be doing injustice - hence the roots of their muder.
5. The rest of the Islmic period was so bad that the Islamic scholars used to call only the period of the first four caliph as Khilafat and the rest of the period - Ummayad, Abbasid etc were called Mulikiyat. So, if you are saying that we should give up on democracy within 60 years, how can we accept a rule that was a failure for a thousand years?
6. What do you mean when it si said that in pakistan both army and military rul;e has been tried? It is wrong. In Pkaistan there was only military rule - direct or indirect. Democracy was never given a chance.
7. What is your understanding of democracy? Yes, people are soveriegn but it does not mean that they will do whatever they can do. If people are Muslims. under democracy they will make rules that wull be in line with their beliefs. Democracy in a muslim society will not mean people will change halal and haram. It will mean that they themselves will ake laws in line with their beleiefs and sine majority belief in pakistan is Islam, the laws will be in life with it.
8. If US wants to get rid of Islam, why is it also agaisnt Cuba and Vanzvela? On the other hand, it is best of friends with SArabia. My friends, the regime in America wants a government that will accept brute capitalism and US’s political clout. It does not matter to them wether the country and rulers are Muslims or not. If you really want to fight, fight military-corporate alliance taht si ruling the world.

Ibnbatuta

Ibn batuta

@ibnbatuta, @azlone

At one side we have generals, andthe other size is rivalist. I have asked him similar questions in other article, because he post in a REALLY long “opinions” in forums. He did not answer the same questions asked by me. Instead he came bakck with canned answers.

In above post he refers to a study done by University o Maryland, but forgets to provide the link. I doubt he will answer any of your questions on a point by point basis. If he did reply, it wilk be a canned answer with all the hall marks of Hizb-e-Tahrir or Dr. Israr point of view.

two more questions…
1. how will the non-Muslims be treated under Islamic rule? As Dhimnis - the status they had under Muslim khilafat? They will be second rate - paying extra taxes and not allowed to hold public positions?
2. Will you be ok if India is then ruled by Hindu rule, countries in Europe and Americas by Christian rule in which Muslims iwll be considered as second rate citizens, as infidels and not allowed to hold public offices?

Ibn Batuta

@zenith

If Musharraf is so far unable to get away with media criticism, I doubt NS or anybody else has any chance. Internet/youtube and text messages and tv channels will be still there.

BTW what happened to the frequency of programs like Capital talk, Meya Mutaqib, Jawabdeh? is GEO compromised totally? Also I havent seen a single program by Kashif Abbasi? anybody know about him?

@ibnbatuta

Following was my post to @revivalist, with no answers

@revivalist

Your long post shows its a mouth piece of Hizb Tahrir. You have all canned answers for my questions, similar to what I used to listen from “Tablighi Jamaat�. You made an assumption that I am a bad muslim and don’t know about “golden age of muslims�

1) My question was where was Khilafah, how was it implemented after the first four Khulfa

2) I can say your statements are also not true statement of Islamic history, as you are looking at other side of coin

3) If Khilafat is the golden way of doing government, why you don’t see it in even “SINGLE country� in muslim world

3) What is stopping it in UAE, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey to name the few

4) Every system works, as long as there are set of laws, and those laws are equally applied to everybody

You can never have utopia, so get over it. Democracy can give you “You Khilafah� in Pakistan. All you have to do it is find enough people to like your version. We have see Amir Ul Momineen “General Zia Ul Haq�, and “Real Democracy Champion� Musharraf.

How and why should I believe you when you have a blatant lie lke “We have tested democracy for 60 years�. Where are you living?

@ econfused

I am not surprised that you did not get any answer nor do I expect a specific answer and I know that if I will write a few more sharp things, these people will start to call me Kafir etc.

The main raeson I wrote the comment was that those others who have an emotional attachment with Islam but have never been exposed to Muslim history as it was, should not get hoodwinked by such propaganda. I also thunk, that people such as @revivalist and @traffic are good at heart but simply have never had any exposure to history beyound what Pakistan’s military and Mullah dominated education system and PTV version of Islam has told them. They havenever bothered to read the Sira of Ibn Ishaq - the earliest complete Sira we have, the works of Tabari, the writings of jurists such as al-Mawardi and Ghazali. So, people like us have to write, not so taht we can change the mind of such people but taht we can present alternate thinking to those who are on the fences.

Ibnbatuta

@Ibne Batuta
@econfused
I wish you devoted your time to as solution for the people who wish to lead their life according to Islam, instead of questioning people like revivalist. I have all the answers to your questions but sice I know Khilafat is impossible if majority of the people want Islm as a way of life, so to answer them is useless.
We are just proud to be Msulims (if at all we are). We are not proud to have Islam as a religion. It is just a column in the passport that described Islam as our religion. Otherwise our general preferences in life are to follow only that part of Islam which does not become prominent to non-muslims. Becaue we are never proud of that.
For your info, all muslim rulers were called khalifa, the first four were called khulafaye rashideen because migration to madina was common to all four. Rest all were also khalifa from bani umayyah, abbasi and others.
For a commo man, i don’t think one starts reading all the books. One should start from the basic pillars of Islam and start implementing those in his life. I know most of you think, Islam is not just the five pillars, but remember any building without pillars is not called a building.
Pakistan was established as a Muslim State. I wonder why it is called an Islamic State. It has just majority of Muslims, and the slamic organisations should understand that. If they want to create an islamic state, they have to convince Muslims to start practicing it. Unless there is a majority of Muslims who understands that Islam is inevitably their mode of life, there is no use of Khilafat or any similar system.

I think last address of Prophet (PBUH) makes us quite clear that “even a slave puts you on right direction (Sirat-ul-Mustaqem) so follow him”. I think the Prophet (PBUH) put the condition and now its upto us that how to select/elect the rightous person.

@tanweeramjad

You have answers to all questions, but you didnt answer them How can you assuem that either @ibnbatuta or myself not following “Pillars of Islam”. We have to question anybody who twist facts be it people like @revivalist or @FarooqAhmed.

If just calling some one Khalifa makes a difference, then we have Khalifa Zia-ul-Haq, and now we have has Khalifa Musharraf.

Last question, why we have to make Pakistan an islamic state, why can’t these guys go and make Saudi Arabi an islamic state, or Egypt an islamic state.

Last question, just for the kicks, do you know why it is called Saudi Arabia?

Khalifa had a unique position in the golden times of Islam. It was a kind of symbol of pride for the Muslims, like several Royal Families for Euopeans in nowadays. Though they have democratic govts but they like Royal families to stay.

In past if we look at the history, when Abbasis took over the Baghdad, and one of the Umiyad prince fled to Spain to rule there. He never declared himself as Khalifa of Spain but the Sultan of Spain as he knew the Khilafat presides in Baghdad. Same goes to Sulatn Noor ed Din Zengi and Sultan Sulahudin Ayubi. They never declared themselve Khalifas although on their times there was one of the corrupt Abasi Khalifa presiding in Baghdad. They never called themselves Khalifas but Sultans.

Like people say that to solve the problem we have to go to the root of it. I believe that the root of the problem that exists in Pakistan is our mental bondage to the west. Even 60 years after the independence we are still NOT free. Ten years ago I was reading a book by Winston Churchill, in which he mentions his continous opposition to the British policies of giving independence to its colonies. His main argument was that most of those colonial people were not ready for independence. They needed more time and maturity. Regardless of the real reason behind his opposition, which would be a different area of discussion, I believe he made sense. Please dont take me wrong, I love Pakistan but we have to set the emotions aside if we are to find some solutions.
Firstly, I ask, Were we really ready for independence in 1947? I bet if Jinnah was living today he would have said NO too. But, back then, it was NOW or NEVER. Jinnah had to take his chances and get something immediately rather than wait for it. So we can say that Pakistan was born prematurely.
One may ask that even if someone was born premature, it is 60 years now. Shouldnt it be strong and healthy.
Well that premature Pakistan needed blood (resources) and good doctors (politicians/leaders). The blood (resources) were injected through foreign aid while the doctors (politicians) made sure that Pakistan doesnt recover in order to get more and more aid.
Briefly, if we have been living on aid for so long, there never develops a sense of pride, a sense of honour and sense of owning and building something. We always look towards the west for aid, guidence in our daily life, and bail us out of any problem. THIS IS OUR REAL PROBLEM. Look at our youth in shopping areas of Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad. Their attaire, their gait, their speech, all gives you an impression of a society brimming with inferiority complex aspiring to be one of those who ruled their very ancestors more than 60 years ago.
No bull, ask yourself, how many of you are really proud to say you are Pakistani??? Not many, I am sure. And those who say they are proud, my question is …Proud of what (about Pakistan) ????

@Tanweer
“For your info, all muslim rulers were called khalifa, the first four were called khulafaye rashideen because migration to madina was common to all four. Rest all were also khalifa from bani umayyah, abbasi and others.”

I am afraid, you missed the point completely and what you have written is not true as well. Let em expalin.
Firstly, not all Muslim rulers were called khalifas. The Mughals or the Safavids were not called caliphs. Even not all the Ottoman rulers were called caliphs.
After the first four caliphs, Mawayiah called himself the caliph and then appointed his son to the caliphat. The Ummayads were dislodged by the Abbasids in 749/750. There was a unified Abbassid rule till 945. After that various dynasties - the Buyyids, the Ghaznawids and the Seljuqs took away their effective power. The rulers of these dynasties were called Sultans. While Abbassid caliphate remained, it was only in name. There real power was held by the Sultans. In 909, the fatimids established an alternate khilafat. in the 11th century, there were in fact, three claimants to khilafat - the Abbasid, the fatimids and the Ummayads. There was a year in the 11th century when Baghdad was nominally under Fatimid rule and Khutba was recited in their name.
The Fatimid Caliphate ended in 1171, the Ummayad around in 1031 and the Abbasids in 1258. The ottomans came to power in 1299 but its early rulers did not claim the title of caliph. In fact, only some did and the first one to do was Mehmed II who regined in the middle of the 15th century.

When people talk about Islamic rule, they have usually a very utopian understanding of the history of their religion. It is baecuse of this utopia taht they think taht only if Islam came back everything will be ok. The raeson, I spoke about raeding books by Muslims of the past themselves was to help us get out of this utopia. If you would read history as written by Muslims of the past themselves you will have a reality shock.

Secondly, the point I was making was not whether Muslim rulers were called caliphs or not. the point was that Muslim scholars saw the later period as so corrupt taht they started to make a distinction between the rule of the first four caliphs - calling it khilafat - and the rest of the peiod - calling it mulkiyat.

Thirdly, I think it is very simplistic to think taht only if eveyone starts to practice five pillars, all will be well. Even if I take your point that today most people do not practice and thsu they are under the rule of others, how will you expalin our colonisation? Was it also beacuse people even in the 18th and 19th century were not folloiwng basic Islam? And how far will you go, were muslims not following basic Islam even in the 13th century when they were destroyed by Mongols? Please, think beyond thsi simple idaes taht all will be well if eveyone prayed.
Life is far more complex then that.

Ibn batuta

Ups and downs are natural process in nation building. Just look at Americans, it took them atleast 100 years to settle down their inner differences after their independance from Britian in 1776.
Inshallah Pakistan will rise too.

@econfused
Did I say that you or Ibn Batuta not following pillars of Islam? Let me read my text? I think I didn’t, and I id not even intend to do so. But the apparent thing is that majority of the muslim population is not following. even if we give benefit of doubt to uslims that they hiddenly follow the pllars of Islam in their homes in themselves, doesn’t it indicate that we do’t want to show that our religion is practicable in this century. Or one can practice a portion of it and that would be sufficient.
If Saudi Arabia is having the honour of hosting the biggest gathering, it does not legitimate the kings of the country if they are doing everything against Islam. For instance, one should be concened more about people or country he belongs to in the first place. (Charity begins at home). If everybody starts rejecting Islam in the first place (as most of the west intends to do), should we think Islam is not a true religion. Or to be more precise..; should we think we should not propagate good about Islam and forget about Zia, Mullahs and Jamaats etc. We have to admit that we have spent more time in cursing the Mullahs than setting an example of ourselves in the society.
Silent majority never plays an important role. It is the people who are proud to be part of the system. Majority of the pakistanis don’t vote. You know why? It is not because their votes might not count. It is because they know their leaders will never deliver good.
I don’t care wether it is an Islamic state or shariah is enforced or not, unless people think Islam is a mode of life, there is no ue implementing it by force. But I would expect at least from the parliament that they will not try to interfere in the Islamic legislations and just see the consen of the grand mufti Musharraf of Pakistan.

@Ibn Batuta
for you my aswer is simply that just as people say that people have not tested demoracy in the real sense in the last 60 years due to interference by the army, likewise we don’t have experienced an islamic system for even a year or so in the last 60 years.
I don’t think there is any need to compare the situaton with 18th or 17th century. Pakistan is a reality and is somehow called Islamic republic of pakistan. Don’t you think it is a hyocrisy shown to muslims and non muslims all around the world, a country established in the name of Islam is not an Islamic State.
If I think Islam is not practicable in the current world and there are a lot of complexities, I am in fact convincing myself that I have every reason not to follow it. and would just be saying through my speech… Yes I am a Muslim doesn’t matter if I follow it or not.
I know Islamic system is not practicable with a majority of people thinking it impracticable, that is why we will keep getting people as Musharraf who also rephrase Islam the way it suits them.

@tanveer

There is different between wishful thinking and actions. If majority of people do not vote, then we should blame majority and not the leaders. With my limited knowledge, I can not provide golden examples from Islamic government except from first the Firt four Khulafa. Again I am saying by my limited knowledge. If you read history, and you will find problems right from 750 to end of Khilafat-e-Usmania.

Now on western democracies, we can see far good examples about law and order and liberty of life and property. Democracy is self correcting, but it will not work well on the day 1.

Revivalist and people like just mix up facts with false hopes. I just hope that people should read more.

By the way, I am a supporter of democracy and I wish people vote counts, and whoever they choose be it NS,PPP, IK (but I wish Q-league Fazlu and MQM get their ‘real’ , ‘due’ share not more than nothing).
Later we can just expect that whosoever is the leader of the house he would not become a Mufti.

@tanveer

Jinah was leader of “Pakistan”, where muslim majority areas should be ruled by Muslims as they please “In simplistic terms”. He did not create a “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”.

If I also call correctly (I can be wrong), it was an act of British parliament, a democracy in itself.

@econfused
I think I get your point, and I wish and hope we get democracy for a longer duration this time. If elections keep on happening, we can have change according to the actions of the previous leaders.

What does it mean tos ay taht Paksitan was created in the name of Islam?
I do not know anyone among the leaders at the time of independence saying this. They talked about a separate country for Muslims. Remember that East and West Pakistan had about 15% non-Muslim population. No one was expecting that this popuplation would migrate. So in thinking about the creation of Pakistan, thsi fact needs to be kept in mind. In fact, the religious parties were against Paksitan. It does not make sense that if paksitan was being cretaed for Islam, how come they were opposing it?
Pakistan was for Muslims of India but not only for them, else the demand would have also included removal of non-Muslims.
it was indeed the hijacking of Mawdudi and company that gradually led to the idea that Paksitan was created in the name of isl;am. The history has many phases, from Objective Resolution, to riots against Qadianis, to the proclaimation of Islam as Pakistan’s ideology came later. In his book ‘From Jinnah to Zia, Justice Munir claims that it was in the sixties, to the use of Islam to bolster their rules by both Bhitto and Zia.
Many, many of the present pakistanis have grown up under Zia’s regime and despite the fact that they may hate Zia’s role, remain its ideological products and hence falsely think that Pakistan was created for Islam.
Ibnbatuta

@ibnebatuta

I think people got the point. BTW no answers from revivalist

People within country strongly feel & express it OPENLY, that mush is a scourge/an affliction/& a punishment to Pakistan from Allah Almighty. Some also call him a ‘Dajal ,’ & as well as a FITNA ! People are seen openly recommending the relevant verses from the Holy Quran, to be recited by God-fearing Pakistanis, for removal By Allah -o-Tallah, of this FITNA from the face of Pakistan.

@ibnebatuta
i myself couldn’t continue collecting more discreet knowledge about khilafat but about your point that how would they muslim ruler behave with other minorities in their time of governess can be understand by observing Hz Umer Rz’s era. In his time the place that now has became israel was one of the peaceful place and every one had same rights like muslims had. there wasn’t such thing and so called democracy that let them allowed to crush other’s homes.
@enconfused
If Khilafat is the golden way of doing government, why you don’t see it in even “SINGLE country� in muslim world

that is because of the those sharabi nawabs and the current sold outs leaders.
take a look at turkey..there, you can even pray namaz in turkish language naozubuillah.
Moreover, about its re-arrival…this world hasn’t collapsed yet.

@junaid,

SO the only example you can come up with Hz Umer Rz’ era. There it proves the point of life an liberty. I think muslims in western countries enjoy way better rights than their “Islamic” countries. They don’t have to do research to find out how freedom of speech , liberty and rights were enforced 1000 years ago.

The method of electing government to run the state affairs was left for interpretation. I do not recall any particular Ayaat about Khilafat, or how to elect Khalifa.

@junaid,

There is no reason to doubt that treatment of non-Muslims under Muslims was generally better than the treatment of minorities under other religions. So the Jews were far better treated under Muslims than under Byzantine. Umar is perhaps one example but there were other phases as well such as the tenth century Cordoba, Mughal emperor Akbar and many years under Ottomans.
However, non of these is comparable to the equality given by modern nation-state. Under the Muslims, non-Muslims were ‘tolerated’ and often left on their own but they were not equals. They had the status of Dhimmni. Further, they were always at the mercy of the mood of the ruler. So while one ruler may be good with them but the next one might be brutal. There was no constitutional equality. As is the case in Pakistan, no non-Muslim could become head of the state - not just practically but even in legal and theoretical terms.
Modern idea of equality is very different. In a modern state, everyone is equal in the eyes of law. India could boast a Muslim president, a Sikh PM and a Christian head of the ruling party. There is no legal bar on a Muslim becoming head of the US or Uk or France, though practically thsi seems a remote possibility today.
So, it is important not to confuse the modern idea of equality with Medieval notion of equality which was practiced in Muslim contexts. What Muslims did was far better than what others were doing at that time but it was a very different idea than what modern idea of equality demands.

Ibn Batuta

The war against terrism is only a joke nothing more then this.So let see upto wht extent the musharaf and bush fight for it.Both of them will not e succeded in this joke that they are doing with Musilim specially and with all world.

Is this statement being acknowleged by Pakistani media as well? As in the past, western media has just spiced up to portray the odds about Pakistan’z curent position with the american led war.