Author: Gul Bukhari
Miracles do happen. Nobody thought the elections would take place on Feb 18th. Nobody imagined they’d be largely peaceful. And nobody could dream of the outcome we have. Though Pakistan Muslim League (Q) did steal more seats than their fair share in the dead of the night, the miracle has still happened.
Whatever else Benazir Bhutto might have been, she proved to be the most astute politician of the country. I can say without any reservations, that had it not been for her, the 19th of February would have been a very different day for Pakistan. Through her wheeling dealing, her courting of the U.S., her flirting with the establishment, her cat and mouse games with Musharraf (all of which enraged the public), she managed to disrobe Musharraf of his armour – by holding out till he resigned from the army. Her wily negotiations stripped him of his constituency and his power. Defanged thus, Musharraf (and his coalition partners) failed to rig the 2008 general elections all the way to hell and back.
Next, in the face of opposition from her own and other opposition parties, and public misgivings, she refused to boycott the elections. However, she continued to use the threat of boycott, as and when appropriate, as a negotiation tool. Had she not stuck to her guns in this regard, Mian Nawaz Sharif, leader of Pakistan Muslim League (N), would certainly have boycotted, and I shudder to think of the consequences of these two parties (PPPP and PML-N) sitting on the sidelines whilst the establishment crowed of their landslide victory, and their clear mandate from the people, on the 19th of February.
Post elections, Nawaz Sharif surprised even his own supporters with the demands he put forward as a precondition to forming a coalition government with the PPPP. He neither softened his stance on the restoration of the judiciary issue, nor backtracked with regard to Musharraf’s removal from any role in the government. In fact, he has served Asif Ali Zardari, widower of Benazir Bhutto and co-chariman of PPPP, a brilliant stalemate with his three-point preconditions list (restoration of judiciary, removal of Musharraf and demand for Aitezaz Ahsan as PPPP’s Prime Minister). He knows better than anyone else how difficult it is for Zardari to accede to any of these demands (the U.S. is already pressurising Zardari to work with Musharraf). If Zardari accedes, Nawaz Sharif will be seen to have gained these concessions out of the largest party, truly achieved statesmanlike stature and appear the kingmaker, besides securing for the country restoration of the judiciary and a Prime Minister who is seen as an honest, experienced and brilliant man. If Zardari does not accede to Sharif’s demands, what will be his choices but to enter a coalition that includes the Q-league? He will lose credibility immediately, which will be further eroded by that particular coalition neither restoring the judiciary nor impeaching the President.
It appears that Nawaz Sharif is playing some mature politics and has decided to play for the long run. He is not interested in participation in government at the moment at the expense of his new found credibility. He also probably understands the changing demographics of Pakistan, which is urbanising at a fast pace. The urban middle and lower middle, somewhat educated, classes are his core constituency. These are the people that are increasingly voting on political issues. If you take the example of Punjab, where it has been widely acknowledged that a massive amount of development work was carried out by the previous provincial government, and yet the public showed the door to the Q-league, it lends credence to the analysis that the public is now moving towards issues based voting (i.e., issues political in nature, and further removed from their daily lives). Also, the role of independent media is undeniable in this phenomenon – and this trend, together with the culprit (independent media), is here to stay.
Mian Nawaz Sharif is the one who has read the writing on the wall. He made a strategically sound and far sighted move in putting forward his three demands.
Please send your articles for “admin at pkpolitics dot com”. We apologize we could not publish some of the articles that were sent just before elections due to more coverage to elections.
there nothing to talk about… pppp is the winner and thats i personally feel not Goood… ek bar phir currption… ek bar phir zardari MR 10% k naam sey pehchana jaye ga
& that tells u that these leaders are not at the top by default or by chance; they do have the guts & talents.
bhojani: no point getting totally fixated and mentally bogged down with corruption or alleged corruption. you might be surprised that various holy cows aren’t all that holy. the people have spoken so give the elected leaders a chance, my man. the country faces more serious problems than just alleged corruption of this and that fella.
does anyone have a ary one world schedule? Need to know when Ayaz Amirs programme is tomorrow ..
if anyone knows, kindly share..
thanks
nice piece…anyone knows gul bukhari’s background? never read anything by him in broadsheets….
It is never too late for the politicians like AZ and NS ,tto prove themselves that they are not only thieves but also a good administrator and they can atleast run the country for 5 years.
i am sure they will also steal the money from pakistan and also do corruption. But this is the part of the politics and running of the state.
Not a single country is free of corruption, every country has some problems…….so why not with us.
Lets see how Zardari and Nawaz work this time.
You wrote,
–
and yet the public showed the door to the Q-league, it lends credence to the analysis that the public is now moving towards issues based voting (i.e., issues political in nature, and further removed from their daily lives).
–
I agree that the voting pattern is starting to shift towards issue based voting based on the demographic/political shift you mentioned, but I am of the opinion that it is actually an indication of the increasing political sophistication of the Pakistani (especially Punjabi Urban) voter. They have started to realize that seemingly unrelated issues like free judiciary, free media and strong institutions have a direct bearing on their daily lives.
For the voters to make this abstract connection really is good news AFAIAC. Good piece btw!
remember 1993?
chatta wattoo along with 15 independents (PA&NA) meet zardari. PA hmmmmmm!!!! another PML-J in the making.
& sajida mir of ppp in a tv program demanding punjab’s govt
I think the game may take an ugly turn if zardari is trapped by these people. for PML-N opposition is no big deal
Sorry ADMIN
just wanted to add that the site is looking great.
keep it up.
Excellent, thought provoking piece. Well done! Few days ago I was reading Iqbal and was amazed to find his “end justifies the means” philosophy. If I read him correctly, it means Benazir’s cat-and-mouse game, or flirtation with Musharraf, is vindicated, despite being unethical at times (going against the spirit of Charter-of-Democracy, etc). This is what the author argues meaningfully.
kurkosmici: Gul Bukhari has written articles for pkPolitics earlier as well. While the person may not be well known (as yet), the article (like above) shows deep thinking and insight. Lastly, as somebody commented earlier, it is not WHO is saying, what is important is WHAT the author is saying!
@ Gul,
I find a contradiction in your thoughts.
On the one hand you credit BB for astutely diarming Musharraf. The two paras you have written in praise of BB’s moves give an impression taht she wanted a thorough going change – something you later associate with NS.
If this is true, then why do you hesitate to predict that Zardari will go whole heartedly with NS’s demands, in fact these should be his demands as well?
Are you suggesting that while under BB, PP was committed to one ideal, under Zardari it is committed to another?
muqqafa
I wrote yesterday that God has given Zardari a life time opportunity to clean his name from all the cases in the eye of Pakistani people if he would accept the Mian Nawaz Sharif’s demand to bring the judiciary back, removal of Musharaf.
At this point if he would make the deal with Musharaf, for the time being, he might would gain something but in the long run or even in the near future, he is going to loose big.
But people have to understand that US is not going to let Musharaf go that easily because they have invested $10 billion dollars on him and India already have made plans to settle the Kashmir issue through Musharaf ( obviously in his favor).
For most Pakistani, they think that we dont have to listen or take the dictation from US, it sound very appealing but this is not practical at all. If Iranian despite having tons of oil is struggling to make their life, Pakistanis are going to be on their knees in couple of months if US pulled its trigger!!
loll god has given zardari? loll sic5770! its a deal com on man lol geo mush! u reali reali think this was a free election? then ur not a political analyst with the knowledge of pak history! any1 hu noes pakistans history noes dis isnt a free election this is america puling the strings rise and fall! thats there way of controling other nations
@ sic770
Although I do agree with you that we cannot outright confront US, this also does not mean being a doormat for them. This is exactly what we have been for the past 7-8 years. There is something known as diplomacy and that is what politicians are supposed to be good at. Zardari had US pressure to face, true but he also has people back at home to answer for. With the hide and seek game PPP was playing ever since BB’s return, PPP lost quite a lot and it was only the poor woman’s death that turned the scale in their favor. So while US cannot be told to go to hell outright (no matter how much you want to tell them that), some things can be made clear to them subtly. Besides. Bush is going and there is already an increasing unrest in US against US’ “work with Musharraf” rather than “work with Pakistan government” policy.
IMHO, Zardari has the chance of a lifetime to wipe out his sins/activities from peoples minds, if he just stand with Nawaz on Jucidiary restoration issue.
Its a test of his courage & Leadership.
With free media, its also the most sensible step becuase pretty soon PPP folks will be ripped by TV channels if they dont take a stand based on principal.
So best strategy === > RESTORE JUDICIARY.
The rest will fall in place.
@ fasih_ul_yahya
what is so funny? I see dozens of ‘lolls’ in every comment you have made? Do you know the meaning?
@sic5770:
–
ut people have to understand that US is not going to let Musharaf go that easily because they have invested $10 billion dollars on him and India already have made plans to settle the Kashmir issue through Musharaf ( obviously in his favor).
–
I really find this logic bizzarre to say the least. I don’t know why a lot of Pakistani’s are parroting this line of thinking. So, basically, if Mush and his kleptocratic cronies whored the people of Pakistan for 10 billion dollars, we are now bonded servants to the US?
First of all, WARS cost money. And if we are fighting a war, we are being compensated (not we, the Jurnails and their bank accounts) for the expenses. Do you remember the US took 52 billion dollars from the Arab idiot kings after they “defeated” Saddam in Gulf War-I ??
Also, there is no resolution of Kashmir issue because of Mushi’s magical personality. Please stop propagating this FUD. Grow some cojones and stop preaching defeatism to your countrymen in the guise of “pragmatism”.
All these decisions must be made by elected representatives of the people. American doesn’t want that because they have a yerkail by his tiny jew-els and he follows their orders like a traind dog.
Nothing frightens Imperial powers more than a parliament that dares to put the interests of its own people before theirs. The Yerkails (Jurnails) are the opposite. First they are lured by properties and assets in the west , and then they do whatever their masters tell them to protect “their” millions (and give “our” billions away in the process).
Optimist,
asih_ul_yahya is showing his political associations with his multiple lols.. and you dont have to be a political analyst to find his associations.
US should be happy that Pakistanis have rejected all the fundamentalist parties and given vote to the moderate people in this elections, but this clearly shows their double standereds by not supporting the democratic forces. US would have love to see MMA people ( Fazlu) to come in power, so they can create the propaganda to attack on Pakistan.
The ultimate winner in this whole sham election is the person who everyone in Pakistan thinks to be a corrupt person. Allah is not at all happy with the people of Pakistan. He has imposed a career corrupt person to be a power broker for the people of Pakistan. Well guys you got what you wished for. Be ready to embrace thorns with flowers.
And that person by the way is Zardari who will make decisions about the people of Pakistan with his corrupt mind. All you democracy lovers, good luck.
@majagama: give it up already dude. get some rest.
The game plan is very simple for Musharraf. They would like Zardari to accept Musharraf as president and also accept that judiciary need not to be restored. After six months into the goverment , musharraf would start finding faults with the govemrent and then he would sack Zardari and provincial governments also under Section 52 B and when Zardari would go in Supreme Court, there Musharraf,s PCo judges would be sitting there and they would validate the dissolution of assembly – and that would be end of Zardari and company.
So Imran khan and AA are absolutely right that judiciary revival is very important – only that can save Zardari and his party from crashing out of goverment in coming time and also removal of Musharraf is absolutely necessary because you cannot trust this Musharraf at all.
Also MQM should be included only on two conditions. They should apologise for May 12 incident and should not obstruct its investigation by court and secondly they should accept restoration of judges. As simple as that.
Everyone is saying of strengthening of judiciary. Does that mean you strengthen the present PCO judges who took oath without any conscience and also for worldy benefits. Can any of us really can trust these guys to give us justice.
So Zardari should think in long terms and should also emphasize on restoration of judiciary as a pre-requiste otherwise he would really repent his decision down the lane.
Maja gama
I want to ask you one simple question
Do you think
1. musharraf is not corrupt
2 pervez elahi was not corrupt
3. fazul ul rehman was not corrupt
maybe zardari took money but the guys above took away our rights by dismissing judiciary etc
Dont worry – Allah has done a great thing for our nation – now we have to go ahead and built it.
For last 8 years musharaf and his company have been f—-ing this nation and you are crying about corruption of Zardari and beseeching Allah that our end is near.
people like you cannot fool us anymore. We have elected these guys and if they turn out to be wrong then we would throw them out of government next time. As simple as that. We just need fair and free elections every five years.
I can not rest until I find the answer to this. Why a 19 year old kid has been forced on the lives of Pakistanis for the next half century at least and no one seem to have a problem with that. This 19 year old has no clue about the life of an ordinary Pakistani. His only qualification is that he happened to be in the right womb. Any one who does not see a problem with that must line up to get their head examined. That 19 year old is Bilawal who is laughing behind closed door on the stupidity of Pakistanis. You got what you wished for . And why is it OK to have a dictatorship by a few families and not OK to have it by the defenders of the nation.
Maga gama
We are far happy with Zardari than Altaf hussain, Musharraf, pervez Elahi, Fazlu deisal , and turn coats like patriots etc. Dont worry we would not come to you crying. Zardari is hundred times better than the people who have been fu —-ing us for last eight years.
Maga gama
you think this is sham elections – you are insulting pakistani nation as such who have voted in free fair and transparent elections despite that Altaf hussain, musharraf and pervez Elahi had tried their best to cheat us and do rigging. There was immense pre poll rigging but despite that will of the people came through. So keep your mouth shut and let pakistani people live in peace.
As for BB i dont consider her very astute – becuase in teh process of reconcilation she got herself killed by very those people with whom she was reconciliating. She stabbed the judiciary movement just when it was gaining momentum and CJ was restored. She was not an astute politician – she lost her life for being stupidly being led up on garden path. There is no doubt that musharraf and his cronies got her killed
Maga gama
By the way one thing more – while you let Pakistani people live with their sham choice – you should learn all the seven surs
majagama..i agree with your point on 19 year old kid…..but more than 1/3rd of the pakistanies voted for him/his father. so he has not been forced upon pakistanies but elected by pakistanies
but the real solution is that once he/his father is given his due chance to govern people will decide whether in future they should vote for him or not……may this process will last for a decade…people will continue to make mistakes elect and elect wrong leaders…..but this whole process will help in creating new honest genuine leaders. There is no other way to create honest leaders….
it took west/india/US a long time to reach this stage and if pakistan is given the same chance we will as well…and we will take a lot less than them…whuy because we are much superior and better than the west/indians/US…all we need is a chance and no short cuts (dictators)
Admin,
You may want to open a new topic on “Who should be nominated as the new PM”.
Listening to all you guys all I can say is that anyone who denounces their own army can not be a patriot at all . Now that is a truth and it will hurt. To all democracy lovers the ABC of politics teaches to be non critical of ones own armed forces no matter what. But you guys have consumed a cool aid given to you by ganju brothers and criminal zardari. That has taken away your ability to reason and think. Here is a prediction for you. The very leaders that you cherish (because they are giving you the orgasm of a life time) will never come togather to impeach Musharraf. I will remind you in the next few days about this. Wishful thinking is a mental disorder.
Pak Army is very professional and has ensured fair elections under the leadeship of Kiyani
Mush is ganda anda and will be gone very very soon. his children have already left pakistan….
How long before all of you start denouncing Gen Kiyani. PerhapS very soon!!
as soon as (IF) he starts meddling into political affairs
The very politicians that you believe in, themselves do not believe in democracy. When was the last time these morons conducted elections within their own party to choose a leader. Not even once. This whole mantra about democracy demands certain rules and NO 1 rule is for these so called party leaders to have elections within their own parties. Why do I have to baby sit every one on Democracy?? Keep drinking the coolaid and be delusional.
majagama: as long as they do the right thing it should be appreciated. If tomorrow they switch and reverse their role and get involved heavily in deal making and politics they we would start denouncing them. What is the problem witht his?
majagama: where does the ABC of politics say that armed forces are above critique???. Which cool-aid are you drinking, the general Cola from GHQ?. Keep in mind the army will be and should be critiqued if it decides to run the affairs of the country rather than protectic the country and the constitution. I am sure once we implement article-6 to it’s ultimate conclusion, we won’t be having this discussion. Now go and enjoy your GHQ cola
as i wrote earlier
…people will continue to make mistakes elect and select wrong leaders…..but this whole process will help in producing new honest genuine leaders. There is no other way to create honest leaders….
drinking coolaid is better than what mush drinks!
@pkelections: Heis Trolling. he probably has some free time so he is productively using it to waste everybody else’s time to distract them from real issues.
Trolling is usually empmpoyed by khisiaani billi’s. You will see this technology applied every time a serious and thought provoking article is published on any Pakistani news site blog etc. Koi na Koi kisi stupid baat kaa matam shuru kar daeta hai.
Matlab yeh hai, key khalaai shuttle to chali gayee. laikin yeh dhuaaN kiyooN niklaa itnaa? Yeh koi tareeQah hai?
As Malik said on top
Its called Evaluation. We need political Evaluation in Pakistan. Heared it from Imran Khan the first time and i agree with it totally now.
Yes, this Army, if they would have stayed professional, it might have won some wars. Its is just a land grab Mafia. Give us an example right from 1947, when this army has given u a single piece of land. They have handed over stuff to China and lost Siachin to india.
We will respect army, if they start respecting constitution. If this simple thing can’t get to your mind, then @majagamm, u r also part of the problem.
come on guys you have been harsh on majagama….he is ‘gumrah’ and ‘illiterate’ and has been drinking Mush Cola…… he needs our guidance and prayers as no medicine can treat him/her
The last word is that Ganju brothers are back to have their bank loans get excused again.Zardari is back with his 10% deals. All of you are happy that they are back to rape you. I am happy for you!!!!!
Right now it seems like NS is on the right track, but I want to see results and not only words. We have had enough words which needs to backed by actions. I hope NS (at least this time) can deliver. It will certainly raise his stature in the public.
Now to PPPP: I have more worries here. I have heard rumours about contacts between AZ and Altaf The terrorist. If true then it is worrying that Altaf is being recognised as a leader from a legal party. MQM should be isolated as long as MQM is run by Altaf and as long they don’t denounce terrorism!
/Saqib
@majagama
Army is to secure the border and it should work uner the government elected by the people not the other way round that to treat the people like the Jawans of Army. By getting against Mush it does not mean that we are against army. This institution should do its job like all the others do. In our body also if one organ is over active its either a disease which needs treatment and if malignant the operation is needed to cut the over active part away in order to save the rest of the body and the life. That goes for Mush and army.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/elections08/story/2008/02/080222_newpmoath_musharraf.shtml
Guys,
Please ignore this attention seeker majagama, no need to reply to his emotional and dramatic posts. He is in emotional turmoil and I am afraid, he is not going to jump from the bridge.
MQM would have never thought that after the elections, neither Nawaz Sharif or Zardari are not going to make along distance call to London. This is the first time in the history of MQM, after the elections, none of the political party has been reached out to MQM.
Badalta hai ran asman kaise kaise!!
@sic5770
I was not going to post another message but to remind you guys that when it becomes impossible for you to have a discussion with rational and logic, your next action is to wish somebody jump of the bridge. Hmmm, doesn’t that sound familiar!!!
“I was not going to post another message but to remind you guys that when it becomes impossible for you to have a discussion with rational and logic, your next action is to wish somebody jump of the bridge”
Due to emotional turmoil, you are not even reading peoples post carefully. Read carefully one more time, I did not wish you to jump from the bridge. I said, I am afraid, due to emotional turmoil, you are not going to jump from the bridge.
Why dont you openly tell us, who do you support, Musharaf of Altaf? Trust me, with this confession, you would feel much relax and may be we can give you better advice and better treatment.
By the way, nice try to engage people in your attention seeking post one more time.
Corruption? babar ghauri of MQM looted Karachi. All the corruption he did and made sure that Karachi Port Trust building is burned twice to hide the evidence.
Murder? MQM has been killing its political opponents and officers of the Police since the last 8 years with Musharraf’s blessings. Many people in PPP believe that the bomb attack on her caravan on arrival in Karachi was done by MQM.
Shaukat Aziz was not Mr. 10% , he was Mr. 100%. He was willing to sell Pakistan Steel for less than the price of the land it stood and on and less than the bank account balance of Pakistan Steel!! If the Chief Justice had not stopped it Mr. Shaukat Aziz and Musharraf would have looted 100%!
Zardari is angel compared to these MQM devils!
majagama:
just went through the posts above. you are living in cuckoo land. the armed forces are loved by us but musharaf does not represent them. i have talked to many a patriotic officer and they feel he is a huge liability, a megalomaniac who has brought them much disrepute.
all this banter about corruption is puerile. We face more serious problems today such as the total decimation of state institutions including our judiciary by a power hungry tyrant who feels that he and only he has the right to rule this blighted country of 160m people.
Give the 19 year old a break dude. He’s lost his mother to an assassin’s bullet. And he isn’t even around right now. One thing is for sure, he makes more intelligent remarks than you do.
get a life dude. Wake up and smell the coffee. The general is naked and looking ugly as hell.
and you’re trying hard to be just like him on this site.
@Malek
“…..but this whole process will help in producing new honest genuine leaders. There is no other way to create honest leaders….”
And in 200 years we will have a George W. Bush (Sorry, couldn’t resist!)
@econfused
“Yes, this Army, if they would have stayed professional, it might have won some wars. Its is just a land grab Mafia.”
The way our army has been acting seems similar to how cancer works. Or maybe it is more like Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (A.I.D.S.)
@nota: ha! I chuckled!
dear c hussain
lots of great leaders have walked into the valley of death. this doesn’t mean they were not astute. the odds were heavily stacked against her. fact is she got rid of this man’s uniform (his second skin) and today he stands marginalised because of her and other selfless people such as the lawyers and the CJ. she did give her life for this country; I don’t know if a summary judgment on her lack of astuteness is possible in this manner. Some would say she played her cards well, but in a fatalistic fashion.
thanks, regards
How can you say that Musharraf does not represent army. There is a command and control structure in Pakistan Army that ensures loyalty to the chief. If they start listening to your rhetoric there would be no discipline and you will be either wearing a turban or taking bath in Ganges. Thank your army and its top brass that you sleep peacefully at night. These civilian decoits are not even loyal to their own parties, how could they be loyal to the country.(ever heard a term LOTA). The biggest proof that army was and is loyal to Musharraf is that they did not revolt against their Chief (of course to much disappointment to you and your cronies) for 10 years he was army chief. Even though all of you Pakistan haters wanted all that to happen.
This thread needs some gardening. I’m leaving.
Majagama
He no more represents the entire Army than you represent all Pakistanis dude. He is just one man and is reviled by most as these elections have shown. This is not a matter of command and control batay, shabash, grow up….There are bad eggs everywhere and he is a rotten one. We cannot rubbish the entire armed forces of Pakistan because of one man’s insatiable lust for power. That the army is disciplined and hasn’t revolted is a testament to them.
Anyway he no longer belongs to the army. I am not sure what he belongs to.
Kiyani has already made some moves to distance the army from civilian affairs realizing how bad the reputation has become thanks to this man and his goons.
And by the way I am not sure he has made our country safer over the past many years! He himself goes around in an endless entourage of expensive cars, fearful of his compatriots.
Musharraf is not the embodiment of Pakistan. It is intellectually feeble if not pathetic to call someone a Pakistan hater if they do not approve of the General-President’s shenanigans. If anything the people of Pakistan, en masse, have condemned him and asked him to get out.
One can pass verdict on you being quite a few things, but I will leave that to the readers’ imaginations.
Pakistan Zindabad.
I am waiting how long before all of you start denouncing Gen Kiyani. In a few days when and if Ganja brothers parted with zardari it will be all of you fighting like Hienas to put down either of those two politicians that you carry the water for now. No deen Iman and Allah Knows that and rewards you with Ganja and zardari. Happy democracy!!!
maja sahib: Again as i said earlier, till Gen. Kiyani plays by the constitution no one will blame him, the moment he try’s to stray from the constitution then he will be held accountable. Same goes for the former prime minister Nawaz Sharif and the head of the largest party in Pakistan, Mr Zardari. Till they follow the law and uphold the constitution we are with them, the day one of them moves away and try to goes with Mardood Mush we will be against them. So what part of this you don’t understand?(or are you still high on the GHQ Cola?)
The very constitution that you are soooo in love with explicitly gives the Chief Of the Army the authority to defend Pakistan against enemies External and Internal i-e India and corrupt politicians. The enemy within has to be dealt with to ensure the security of the very country that you and I cherish. Samjhay beta!!
We as a nation would only be free when… (I apologize but these are hard facts).
1) The leaders of the victorious parties in general election stop meeting in the U.S. Embassy and tell Bush and Ann Peterson to butt out.
Btw, even Asfandyar Wali met Ann Peterson today. My God, what happened to self respect.
2) We the Pakistanis in The Islamic Republic Of Pakistan stop the double standards. In Pakistan we are happy to treat our local brown christians like crap and get treated like crap by WHITE christians and still love it.
3) When whosoever (eg Nawaz Sharif) takes a stand on an issue and is rigid about it, we stop saying, “he doesnt have flexibility”, “he lacks political acumen”. We should instead be cheering such people on.
4) Those (like BB) who compromise on even their principles for personal gain, we stop calling them, “astute politicians”, “politicians with vision”. What a joke…
Honestly , I find it hard that a day like this would come in our lifetime.
I DOUBT IF ANYTHING WOULD CHANGE EVEN AFTER THE ELECTIONS UNLESS OUR “MAI – BAAP AMERICA” WANTS IT.
majagama: your last post just sums it up. No need to respond “In the best national interest” hahahaha. Oh i feel sorry for you and other Mush supporters (if there are any left_
@Prometheus
Dont expect these spineless politicians to stand up to uncle sam. In fact it was Nawaz Sharif who bowed at the alter of Bill Clinton to save a Division of India’s army. I don’t know what you call it but I call it treason and you know the punishment for that. If criminal saudi royal family would not come out to the rescue of Ganja, he would definitely have met his fate. He cried like a little baby when going got tough in jail for him until he alongwith his family was rescued by the bandits of saudi arabia. You wished for leader like that . You got it man. Celebrate!!
Guyz watch this new version of Chacha wardi londa kyounai..enjoy
http://www.vidpk.com/view_video.php?vid=9352
Do you believe PPP is genuinely interested in the following?
- Restoration of 3-Nov Judges
- Removal of Musharraf
- Both A & B
- None of these
New poll added on pkpolitics.com.
Admin
The People have Pakistan have given the mandate. Now PPP,PML(N) and other winners should respect it and stop taking dictation from USA.
Musharraf has to go. People have spoken.
If Bush and Boucher love Musharraf so much then you can give him a chance to run for office in USA.
Pakistan will be a free, sovereign, democratic country. Our people will be the true rulers of there homeland.
@majagama
“The very constitution that you are soooo in love with explicitly gives the Chief Of the Army the authority to defend Pakistan against enemies External and Internal i-e India and corrupt politicians. The enemy within has to be dealt with to ensure the security of the very country that you and I cherish. Samjhay beta!!”
bhai too majagama hay aur majagama he ban kay rah
btw is this 19th amendment that COAS has to defend country from corrupt politicians.
Guys I have suspicion and may be C Hussain can respond to this. This guys rhetoric and responses look quite similar to the one C Hussain got from that yellow journalist Aftab Iqbal. OR may be his chacha is still an army general ready to acquire another round of plots from DHA making another billion.
majaygamay, I have a habbit of asking anyone defending mushi and army rule a question, please tell us under oath that you are not related to any serving high ranking army officer.
Who told you I am defending army rule, this is just the illusion that all the PMLN maniacs are suffering from. I am just trying to point out the lesser of all the evils in Pakistan. I would rather go with time tested soldiers of the army than with harissa lover idiot PM. There is really no cure for Musharraf phobia. God help you guys to recover from this mental wart.
majagama, how did you time test soldiers
@ majagama
The people of Pakistan have given the mandate to PPP/PML(N). Let the rule them for 5 years and only then people will judge them.
Now if you love Musharraf so much then please join PML(Q) and wait for 5 years till the next election.
FYI..LOTA League will disintegerate soon. All the lotas will abandon your fav.Gen.
Pakistan was created to be Democratic country. The new Army Chief Gen.Kiyani has realized this and asked all the Armed forced to stick to their profession and not to indulge in Politics.
Pakistan was created to be democratic state not a Military barrack.
Latest rumors from Pakistan are that, not withstanding yesterday’s joint press conference, Zardari is doing a deal with Musharraf, and NS and the judiciary will be left high and dry.
I hope I am wrong, but that is the word from Pakistan, and was also suggested by Nusrat Javed on Bolta Pakistan today (which was taken off the air within Pakistan).
I fear that will be the end of the PPP for me, despite being a life-long supporter. We may as well name them the Katil League collaborators.
Lets see what happens.
@ Wakpak
The rumours you heard are more of ‘wishes’ of Mush lovers. I am not saying that you are one of them: I am saying that they are spreading them.
When you look at the portraits of all those who gave their lives for the very Nation you and your cronies are trying to shovel into hell, it tells you their sincerety with the nation they lived in. Your allegience with the people who saved 1 division Indian Army tells the sincerety they have for Pakistan. Time testing does not require any intelligence. Even the intelligence of an eggplant can understand that. I am sorry I forgot that you have never been any closer to an eggplant. sorry I made a mistake. Please forgive me!!!
@ maja sahib
Either you donot know constitution or may be what i am guessing that perhaps you follow the constitution of Dr. Sher Afghan Niazi.To fight against internal threat armi is called by prime manister.Until or unless PM donot call for armi help armi cannot intervene on its own.Perhaps this will clear your mind if not then i cannt help you and then i can only assume that may be you are a big fan of Dr. Sher Afghan Niazi
Gul has rightly pointed out that Q league couldn’t do the level of rigging that it wanted.
MQM would have won most of the seats even without rigging but it has made a mistake by inflating its majority. This can only do damage.
People of Pakistan have basically slapped Mush and his lovers/alliers on the face because they had enough of ‘we have done this/that etc..)
I would suggest readers to check this article by Kuldip Nayyar. He writes about election results/rigging/ attitude of MQM when they invited him to Karachi
Anxious Time in Pakistan by Kuldip Nayyar
http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=24603
Urdu translation is available on Daily Express today -22nd Feb- (go to editorial page)
http://www.express.com.pk/
@Patriot
Part XII Chapter 2 gives the command of armed forces under the President not the Prime Minister. To all the readers, don’t believe me just look at it your self. Please don’t be fooled by the PPP or PMLN water carriers. Following them will not take you anywhere.
@majagama: here is a poem specially written for people like you
@ maja sahib
Again i can safely say you look naive. Brother perhaps you havenot seen political talk shows in which retired armi personals were also included as guests and they all agreed on this that armi is trained to kill its opponent and they all follow the order of their senior without thinking that whether it is right or not. Whereas in politics you always have to deal situations by negotiations having some give and take and why not. As you are dealing with your own country men not with enemy so armi’s training is not about negotiations thats why they cannot run the country. Now let me give you a simple example to make you understand the situation.
Last year when bhusharraf sacked CJ he was not expecting any lawyer movement of CJ’s restoration but when it happened he had to show to the Pakistanis as he has accepted the court’s decision while in reality he didnt and on Nov 3 he sacked CJ with 60 more honorable judges becoz his armi training led him to the conclusion that CJ has won and he has lost which he didnt accepted and look what he did next he went to european tour to make his own image good and on that tour in every meeting and press conference he abused CJ and called him with bad names all this is due to his armi training as he has been taught to fight against whatever he thinks is his enemy and he cannot accept defeat.
I hope this simple example will tell you that why intellectual scholars always say that Worst Democracy is far better than Best Dictatorship.
I am sorry if you are not an intellectual or scholar.
the embedding doesn’t work here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ea5D3PAPdc
Here is for your knowledge about how the Prime Minister gets picked. Your beloved politicians voted for this. Don’t cry over spilled milk!!! By the way this excerpt is from the constitution for all those skeptics.
[91. The Cabinet.
(1) There shall be a Cabinet of Ministers, with the Prime Minister at its head, to aid and advise the President in the exercise of his functions.
(2) The President shall in his discretion appoint from amongst the members of the National Assembly a Prime Minister who, in his opinion, is most likely to command the confidence of the majority of the members of the National Assembly.
[86] [(2A) Notwithstanding any-thing contained in clause (2), after the twentieth day of March, one thousand nine hundred and ninety, the President shall invite the member of the National Assembly to be the Prime Minister who commands the confidence of the majority of the members of the National Assembly, as ascertained in a session of the Assembly summoned for the purpose in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution.]
(3) The person appointed under clause (2) [87] [or as the case may be, invited under clause (2A)] shall, before entering upon the office, make before the President oath in the form set out in the Third Schedule and shall within a period of sixty days thereof obtain a vote of confidence from the National Assembly.
(4) The Cabinet, together with the Ministers of State, shall be collectively responsible to the National Assembly.
[88][(5) The Prime Minister shall hold office during the pleasure of the President, but the President shall not exercise his powers under this clause unless he is satisfied that the Prime Minister does not command the confidence of the majority of the members of the National Assembly, in which case he shall summon the National Assembly and require the Prime Minister to obtain a vote of confidence from the Assembly.]
(6) The Prime Minister may, by writing under his hand addressed to the President, resign his office.
(7) A Minister who for any period of six consecutive months is not a member of the National Assembly shall, at the expiration of that period, cease to be a Minister and shall not before the dissolution of that Assembly be again appointed a Minister unless he is elected a member of that Assembly:
Provided that nothing contained in this clause shall apply to a Minister who is a member of the Senate.
(8) Nothing contained in this Article shall be construed as disqualifying the Prime Minister or any other Minister or a Minister of State for continuing in office during any period during which the National Assembly stands dissolved, or as preventing the appointment of any person as Prime Minister or other Minister or as Minister of State during any such period.]
Any questions about the power of the President???
@ maja sahib
Sorry if it is President not PM even then Armi cannot intervene on its own its has to be called for help and this do not make any difference.
@ maja sahib
I must confess that I have not read or i donot have copy of constitution of 12 October 1999.But i can tell you that the constitution that we have today is not what a Parliament System should have. Its neither proper Parliament System constitution not a presidential system constitution. Ater Octor 1999 bhusharraf made so many changes in constituion that he took almost all the powers that should be enjoyed by PM e.g. The appointment of Armi chief was in the hands of PM but i think its now in the hand of President. This is why all democratic political parties want the constitution of 12 Oct 1999 to be restored.
@ majagama
Of all the stalwarts on the political scene right now, who do you think is the best bet?
Honestly, I think Pakistanis should have tried Imran Khan but since he still has a long way to go in terms of mustering up a loyal support, I believe we can see NS as the lesser of the two evils. What other choice do people have…
Maja: Are you also posting the oath to be taken by COAS per the constitution or do i have to do it. Please spend your free time as looks like you have a lot these days since the people of pakistan threw you out of power, and please go ahead and post the oath as written in the constitution. Once we start with implementation of article-6 in it’s true sense all this discussion will be irelevant along with the 17th ammendent passed by the support of Musharraf’s hawareen of MQM and JUI-F
This is the BS constitution that illegal president has been taking a dump on since october 1999.
Man Musharraf followers are really feeling the pinch.
My last word. I can only reason and logic with rational. Anything other than that is a hogwash. Stop having orgasms over the election. In merely few days you will see all of them arguing with each other without a substance and as a result the real work of the Pakistani people is never gooing to get done. I do not wish but predict that Zardari and Ganja will not get along and there is going to be a chaos, much to the demise of Pakistani people. I hope that day never comes,but the history of these people can not be ignored. If you know what I mean.
ahan now maja sahib predicts that AZ and NS will not get along and real work of the Pakistani people is never gooing to get done.
From this i understand that in last 8 years ppl of Pakistan were living on moon.Atta chawal ghee and all other items were available for free and in some areas the shopkeepers were even paying the coustomers to buy these stuff. All the punjab has been parha likha by now. Ravi chain hi chain likh raha tha. koi khud kush hamlay nahin ho rahay thay. media was free and judiciary was enjoying its dream independence.No steal mil incident happened neither stock market scandel happened. President didnot interfered in all matters and parliament was sovern. Parliament took the decisions in Red Mosque case as well as in Wana and waziristan and same in Akbar Bugti case.
But now all those genius and personals of heighest caliber has been denied by illetrate ppl of Pakistan and the head of that genius parliament has run away abroad with i dont know how much corruption.So i feel for you maja sahib you are right we all are dumb and may be you are one of those geniuses
@majagama: You sound like a bad-dimaaGh fauji. People like you should be court martialed and shot by a firing squad. You and your buddies need to read the bloody constitution (not the one your coward jurnail mai-baap wrote and raped, the one the People of Pakistan approved through their representatives). Yes that one. Learn to respect your real masters (not Condi Rice you FREAK! ) The people of Pakistan.
Stop BS’ing and Trolling. And fix your English. It is Total SH!T !!. Is this what you learn at Kakool at our god-damn3d expense?
You’re FULL OF SH!T! You were proven wrong and all your wet dreams about the death of the democratic process will wither like your setting sun. You are on the losing side of history! You inheritor of Mir SaadiQ. I’m sick and tired of F*CKING A$$HOLE Coward fauji’s wrapping themselves in the flag and raping the nation.
The Bengali’s did it and now the tribesmen are doing the right thing to you COWARDS !! Like sheep you surrender to anyone with a frikkin gun. The only thing you know is how to shoot and kill unarmed citizens of your own country. Well, I got news for you cowboy: YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED!
aoa
you can watch geo live on lin below, sheik is on at moment
http://live.pakfiles.net/geonews/
@mukti-bahini
Any English written as full of profanities requires a thorough cleanup by a soldier’s cane. Unfortunately on this civilized forum we all have to put up with the garbage that is being reflected by your post. We all would have been in peace and Pakistan would have been a better country had your mother decided to abort an illegal pregnancy.
Long live Pakistan without hate mongers.
@majagama,
Please find other forum to use that kind of language against other visitors.
Admin
Admin please also delete his comments, specially the last one from the biggest hate-mongrer in Pakistan i.e. any one supporting Mush’s crimes against humanity
@ admin
thanks for telling maja off but did you notice the language Mukti Bahini has used? May I repeat part of that:
‘I’m sick and tired of F*CKING A$$HOLE…’
@ admin
ban both of them and please remove both these comments, especially the latter.
Dear Admin,
Any body on this forum has every right to discuss and speak their mind as long as the discussion is civilized. mukti-bahini could not come up with enough political intellect to reason with majagama and started using abusive language. Readers of this forum demand an honest and clean discussion on the issues that are dear to all of us. I think it is unfair to ban majagama just on the ground that he happens to disagree with most of the forum. How are we going to have a debate about both sides of the issues if we start banning people like that. A good and healthy opposite discussion is really beneficial to expand the imagination of all the participants.
@ Admin
Finally, and thankfully someone came to the aid of MajaGama who has been single-handedly fighting a battle of words, wit and wisdom against several usual suspects. These so-called well-wishers of the land of the pure repeatedly revealed their bias through the transperancy of their writing and not-to-mention the guilt-stricken profanity.
In the words of Mumtaz Mufti, Pakistan is like a “Daig of Pulao” on which its people are feasting ever since its inception — regardless of their economic or political background. Neither has this process come to an end nor has the Pulao shown any signs of diminishing. The point, not to be neglected, is that Pakistan’s birth was not simply due to the efforts of human beings but largely due to Divine intervention. Likewise, whether it is Mush or Bush, Nawaz or Asif, radical forces or Western powers — Pakistan will Inshallah, not only survive any crisis but succeed with flying colours, soon. A leader from within the masses is needed and not from the usual select group who likes his/her martinis shaken and not stirred.
To MQM supporters Who claim that Zardari is bad:
Your Biggers Peer called Asif Zardari (AZ) and told him that in the past people made him (altaf Don) and PPP fight (Altaf must be very innocent to follow those ‘people’!!).
He told Zardari that his struggle/sacrifices and jail term were for DEMOCRACY and these were unprecedented in the history of Pakistan (it was not for corruption but democracy).
He also repeated BB is a Shaheed and offered unconditional support to PPP.
NOW WILL MQM SUPPORTERS STOP BASHING ZARDARI AND PPP.
Like our self appointed Saviour-General, Mr. Majagama reveals his insecurities and desperation with increasingly vitriolic outbursts. Only a few days ago Saviour referred to the Hon Chief Justice of Pakistan (deposed) as the “the scum of the earth – a third-rate man…” These are the outbursts of an increasingly cornered, if not isolated, group of petty tyrants that see the edifices of their illegitimate rule coming undone.
Majagama makes all sorts of dire predictions and claims the moral high ground (which, of course, rings hollow). NS and AZ are relegated to ultimate infamy by Maja as are all politicians. Anyone who doesn’t wear a fancy, well ironed uniform decked with medals for (lost /futile?) wars and disastrous adventurism into freezing peaks, is a traitor.
The issue is as follows:
Musharaf and his Q-boys have bequeathed on us the menace of extremism, exponentially increasing poverty, rampant inflation, a major water and energy crisis, a serious breakdown of law and order, the decimation of the education sector, the the decimation of the health sector, the mutilation of the constitution of Pakistan, the brazen and arbitrary removal of the judiciary plus hosts of other major problems whch we all know about too well.
Now the people of Pakistan have voted for the Dictator’s ouster, the end of his regime which has only brought pain and wanton mayhem. Should he not leave and give those that have been elected a fair chance? Should we condemn these victors in advance?
If they fail, if they seek guidance from foreign patrons rather than turning to their own people, then they will also go into the dustbin of history. Time will tell.
But for now they are our only chance. The self-serving doctrine of “Unity of Command” as espoused by the Saviour-General has failed us miserably and turned us into what most of the world considers a deeply troubled, if not failed, state. We gave the alternative form of government, an autocratic dictatorship, almost a decade to prove itself. It cannot now blame its failures on the political class or civil society.
The politicians must resist our elite class’ pathological predilection to be mentally subservient to foreign powers and must draw their strength from the people of Pakistan.
Meanwhile it would help if the much despised General would create the political space to let them try and heal the wounds he has inflicted on our hapless nation.
General Sahib said PML(Q) would sweep the elections. He belittled every poll in the world which declared him to be an obstacle to stability. He rubbished the BBC World Service poll, the IRI poll and others.
Now the people of Pakistan have essentially delivered by the ballot, a civilian form of a court martial. He should take heed and leave.
As should his cronies and goons. What more of an indictment does he want than the verdict of the people of Pakistan?
@wakpak
“Latest rumors from Pakistan are that, not withstanding yesterday’s joint press conference, Zardari is doing a deal with Musharraf, and NS and the judiciary will be left high and dry.”
From what I heard, “Rehman Malik” is playing the dirty role in this and is the middleman for that faction, pushing for “leave PML(N) out”. I have also heard Nawaz is firm on the restoration stand and willing not to be part of the government if the “restoration” is put off the table i.e. they will support the PPP mandate but not accept any ministries and such. I am also told that before the start of PML(N) meeting with Zardari, Ch Nisar canvassed the candidates about their stand on the restoration issue and the candidates reminded him that they were made to take an oath on the very issue by Nawaz himself.
Unfortunately this forum seems to be turning into what every pakistani discussion turns into. Misinformed, close minded people spamming their pre-set point of views.
@thehustler on February 23rd, 2008 3:52 am
“Unfortunately this forum seems to be turning into what every pakistani discussion turns into. Misinformed, close minded people spamming their pre-set point of views.”
…”And not agreeing with MY misinformed, close-minded, pre-set point of view” continued thehustler.
nota:
If you actually look before you write the first thing that comes to your mind, I haven’t said anything in this dicussion, for the reasons already mentioned.
thehustler
every pakistani discussion? and what does that mean dear boy?
nota:
hope you’re information is not correct; Dawn reports that intense diplomatic activity is taking place to convince AZ to tie up with the Dictator. Disgusting.
The News has a different viewpoint; essentially that the US has been asked to lay off and have agreed.
@thehustler
“If you actually look before you write the first thing that comes to your mind, I haven’t said anything in this dicussion, for the reasons already mentioned.”
I DID notice that and that’s what made your comment interesting….You have no opinion and don’t want others to have one either!
@kingarthurII
I hope you and The News are right. I was also told that Zardari was coming around to realize the fatality of the US-backed plan. By the way I don’t know how correct the info is but I heard it from the mouth of a newly elected PML(N) MNA who had returned from Islamabad an hour earlier. They have been told by Nawaz not to return to their constituencies as a PML(N) meeting would be held in a couple of days after Nawaz and Zardari are done with their discussions….
zardari will be remembered as Mr. 25-50% . swiss banks will be more happy and soon they will enhance profit due to wealth of poor Pakistanis.
Remember
Restoration of Judiciary is more important than removal of mush.
May ALLAH give our leaders wisdom and courage to do right decisions. aameeen
I think Mush is behind Majgama…. no right minded person have these views…. how can army revolt against the person who has turned Pakistan into ASKARISTAN!!!!
Atlas Master has spoken…… Gorzella Rice urf Phullan Devi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2008/02/080223_rice_pakistan.shtml
Well it seems that the looters have united. Though I am trying to look at this unity from a positive point. Not that this will bring any good to Pakistan, but probably this will end the voters doubt whether these two parties are any useful or not. At least once they fail together, the voters won’t be voting for them anymore. Otherwise it used to shift in balance each election from PPP to PML (N). If they work together and fail at least we will get someone new.
I hope the sequence of events follow the pattern that I am about to outline, though its just a dream.
PPP and PML(N) join hands. Musharraf is ousted. After a year they fail and the nation gets frustrated again. Enter Chief of Army Staff, throws out the govt. proposes Imran Khan to become the next PM, and this time he accepts. Pakistanis live happily ever after.
Ok, I know its far fetched, but can’t a person at least dream for good times.
Guys,
I should confess that may be it was me who instigated majagama. But as always I never got a reply for my question, if he is related to any serving high ranking army officer but instead got the same dodging replies which I was getting from people like Saima Khan et. al.
i m not agree that nawaz sharif is a mature politiction.a politiction who can not made right decisssion on right time is not called a mature politiction as his history told us .he came to pakistan because of bb and america no one will accesp this but this is reallity.he bycotted election but participate because of bb, again he bycotted but pppp did this.if they didnt participate than pml q could be take majority without rigging.now he have just one slogan restoration of judges but not telling how?no doubt it was wrong action taken by mush but leegally this matter have many leegal difficulties.we have to takle this problem legally it is not peace of paper it is the constitution of pakistan, if mush and dictator did wrong but pariliment is responsible for constitution. he have to deal this in parliment not in streets,it is a leagal issue and have many leegal hurdules and that can not be sort out in streets only in parliment.establishment and q league is trying to expose this matter for breaking this restoration of judges issue.but as nawaz sharif donnt understand this.so how can we say he is mature.he is basically dull minded.leader should lead the people in right way
Mr. Musharaf strengthened his position much before closing the deal with BB. It was pretty evident from his statements and speechs he made much before the elections. He always boasted about himself and very little about his party. His resignation from the army chief position (as he puts it) was his decission not his party’s decission. I dont think that musharaf is upset or rather surprised by the election results. New government has to work him as long as US wants him.
As far as coalition between Nawaz sharif and Zaradari is concerned, no body is sure if its going to happen as both of them are not seen as working together. I dont think either of the two major parties i.e., ppp or pmln gives a damn about judiciary. ppphas to choose between pmln or musharaf.
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