Well said Hamid Mir!! no more discussion required to identify the Kaedoo of today… from all directions fingers pointed towards Mr. Musharaf. Now Mr. Kaedoo should try to clean his senses and feel some embarassment and right away accept people’s decision and RESIGN!!!

Musharrafoooo……Kaidooooooooo!!!!

Manzoor wattoo has met Kaidoo but the subject under discussion between the two is unknown .Kaedoo will follow Zia’s foot prints .
Musharrafoooo——-Kaidooooo——-Wattooooo——–

Welcome back Mr. Mir. As long as intelligent interviewers like you are active, our people will be informed, and leaders kept in check.

A check on Mushahid Husseins brilliant journalism and political history http://www.himalmag.com/99Jun/massage.htm

Hamid Mir we have missed you.

May God protect you and all those who are working for Pakistan.

Kaido will be without any leg soon. Mush and his lovers should remember that power lies with God and he gives that to his creatures. Licking feet of other countries can only get you disrepute.

Bhutto is alive because he stood for principles. US stooge Zia’s son cannot win even one seat. His body parts must be turning in several graves. And as far Mush, he is history!!!!!!!!

@Optimist

You seem to be falling on two sides. At one side you oppose the secret services, and one side you laud bhutto for his ‘visions’. Must I remind you that Bhutto initiated the political cell in ISI? Must I remind you that he went on nationalizing every efficiently running sector of Pakistan (except the cotton one, which by Allah’s graces is still running profitably)? Must I remind you that under his regime our world renowned educational institutions lost all credibility? Must I remind you how many political opponents and industrialists he had jailed just because they would not support his views?

Bhutto is a very controversial figure in Pakistans history, but if you look at the state he left this country in, there is no controversy.

Not to mention the insane drive he launched against our Balochi brothers. I mean no ill-will towards you, Optimist, because you seem to be a little smarter than mindless minions who believe their leaders as if they were God.

I advise you to read this with an open mind - its factual, gives Bhutto due credit where he deserved it, and criticizes him for his shortcomings.

http://countrystudies.us/pakistan/20.htm

Lets be educated, rather than emotional

@GuyFawkes
I agree with you. We should not be “chained” to ALL views within a party. Rather we should have a critical view of all issues. Otherwise we will find it difficult to develop. Only if we are able to spot mistakes and faults we will be able to make corrections. Otherwise we will continue the same mantra about the party we support. Let us start discussing issues and press the party we support to go in the right direction. This is what issue based politics is about!

I also agree about ZAB. He made a substantial contribution on some issues and on other issues he was on a wrong track.

/Saqib

Interesting
..
..
woh koan tha jo kah raha tha PUNGA Lo - Punga Lo……

Interesting….
NS did not like to utter even name of Mushahid…….how much disguested Syed would have felt!!!

Ask Gillani about Sherry Rehman

Hints: Lawyers March, Pink Dress, boo>d< press

I think scenerio is getting very clear between PPP and PML (N). This seems that PML (N) is obssessed with revenge from President Musharraf whereas PPP has inclination towards President. This is very critical sitaution and if leadership of Pakistan have some maturity then should start working with current President and avoid blame game. They should sense the situation and if their intentions are right they’ll be the winner in the end. The rigidity in the current situation is not the solution to the problems of Pakistan.

@ GuyFawkes

If you come out of Mush’s camp, you’ll be able to see things clearly. When you praise Mush and then you talk about a big leader, you should not even take Bhutto’s name if you admire Mush Kutta. Bhutto was a leader, a MAN. Mush is a poodle of the US.

Bhutto was not an angel. He made mistakes. His bold decisions made his mistakes irrelevant. After Quaid-e-Azam he was a great leader. Even Altaf Bhatta Khore accepts that!!! Need you any more persuasion?

@Pakistani2008: With all due respect to you sir, but regarding one Pee Mush: “F*K the current president” The only work they should do is to send him to the gallows and make a grainy cellphone video of him has he hangs like he deserves to hang for his crimes against the Republic of Pakistan.

If asking for the rule of law is “revenge” then I’m for revenge! These 22 grade officers have molested and raped the constitution. THEY MUST PAY or this will keep happening.

I said “THEY”.

Stop siding with vultures and foreign quislings.

@Pakistani 2008
I guess you should also show some maturity, if any. First of all mushi is not a current president, he is a dictator and 80% of the people want him out asap from the place he is illegally occupying and then held accoutable for his all actions against humainty. BTW very soon you will be writing under name “turkey2008″

This talk to reconconliation with President is dangerous. If Musharraf is let go then any future general will overthrow an elected govt.

Musharraf should be be punished for his crimes especially the massacre of Lal Masjid and the illegal steps he took on Nov. 3.

NS is right, we have an opp. to fix the issues now, if we dont act on it this window may never open again.

The people of Pakistan have spoken against Musharraf and his Qatil league.

The new govt. must be formed per the wishes of the people and not the Wishes of USA.

@ Taban Khamosh and @ bechari-awam

I really respect your anger and frustration against all the actions of the President. From a very simple perspective, if you analyse all this then in this fight both parties (CJ and Musharraf) are responsible. The problem with ourselves is that we only remember rules and constitution when we take issues at a personal echelons. This feudal thinking or immaturity is very common among all the strata of our society. This makes our vision myopic. My concern is that let parliament should work in a normal manner and things should run smoothly instead of protests and violence. I would like to give example our Prophet (P.B.U.H) who conquered Makkah without a single drop of bloodshed. The protests of last one year have not been productive against the one day of general elections. So allow to system to work in a normal mode and there is no need to create an emergency and get panic as this can invite other problems. Moreover, we should think beyond the personalities and accept the ground realities and work to improve the situation. The radical change at our part cannot give desired results to our problem. I hope, now, I’ve clarified my point and if you think otherwise this is your right and I respect this with all of your slangs and personal comments.

@Pakistani 2008
How do you justify your claim that CJ is as responsible as Musharraf?
Is it because he refused to bow under unjust and illegal pressure from a dictator?

I am amazed that you will let a dictator, who has done so much harm to Pakistan and its institutions get away like that. Don’t you feel that he should step aside?

/Saqib

Mushahid is a big LOTA and cannot be trusted. Now since Q-League is in trouble, He is siding with PML(N) and PPP.

Beware….

GuyFawkes@
———
Bhutto initiated the political cell in ISI
———

This is a balatant lie.
It was Ayub Khan who initiated the political cell in ISI to control Bengalis in the late sixties. And one more thing ISI was ‘informally’ active in ‘political management’ soon after its creation in 1948. In 1989 BB brought in Gen(R) Kallu replacing the creator of IJI Gen Gul to civilinize ISI and to devise a strategy to bring ISI’s political role to an end but her govt was dismissed by Ghulam the grim.

——————-
he went on nationalizing every efficiently running sector of Pakistan
——————-

YES he nationalised heavy industry because it was a part of PPP’s election manifesto, and people of pakistan had overwhelmingly voted for that. At that time there were only two opponents of state nationlization, America and Jamat e Islami. Rest of the world including all of Europe(Britain included) had nationalized big industry because that was the successful working economic model of the time . And let me surprise you by telling one more thing that all the political parties contesting 1970 elections had promised “nationalization of heavy industry” in their manifestos except Jamat e Islami. Now until if you are a Jamatiya, you should not complain.

—————-
Bhutto is a very controversial figure in Pakistans history, but if you look at the state he left this country in, there is no controversy.
—————-

Bhutto is only controversial for the benefactors and the boot lickers of the establishment. And then there are the gullible who have easily fallen pray to the propoganda of anti democratic forces represented by the likes of Zia, Musharraf, Ch Shujaat and Ejazul Haq, your ideals i believe. The rest of the Pakistan remembers him reverently as the father of 1973 constitution and pakistan’s nuclear program.

Lets be educated, rather than victims of blind hatred

@ commoner

GuyFawkes says a lot of things against Bhutto and he also said that Bhutto Broke Pakistan in 1971. He doesn’t mention Yehya. He likes Altaf’s policies by writing that he is trying to create ‘Aman aur Bhai Chara’.

He thinks Mush is a good guy and democracy is not right for Pakistan. Do you really think you should have typed all that just to respond to his claims no one believes!!

@Pakistan2008: Since you gave the example of the prophet (S) I will counter.

He was the ruler of Medina. Banu Qurayza conspired with Makkans and committed treason during the battle of the trench. This is TREASON. Europe still makes a bid deal out of it but it was treason.

Do you know what was the verdict for this treachery committed by them? 700 men, all of them actually were put to death. They kept killing them by the side of the ditch all day and late into the night.

I give you this example, because TREASON MUST BE PUNISHED. And what Musharraf did on October 99 and then Nov 3rd was Treason! Article 6 should be applied to him and he and all those who helped him should be put to death and their families imprisoned and all properties confiscated, all foreign assets frozen.

CJ and Mush are NOT the same. Wake up and smell the coffee bro. This is not a kindergarten fight over a pencil eraser. Treason has been committed agasint the republic of Pakistan by a 22 grade officer and he gave aid and comfort to the enemies of Pakistan. Lal masjid is peripheral to the landscape of crimes Mushie and Pals have been part of.

@Optimist, Commoner

Am no fan of PML Q and Mush (or Altaf ‘bhai’ for that matter) but come on Bhutto was no angel and yeah he might have been awfully charismatic but had serious megaloania issues. He promoted zia over 8 other generals to keep his kursi. He arrested the ANP leadership and started a military operation in baluchistan to keep his kursi. He pandered to the mullahs to keep his kursi. All the left leaning PPP old guard were stabbed in the back in favour of feudals like khar and jatoi who stabbed him in the back once they got their chance. He might be a great speech maker and a brilliant forein policy maker but as an administrator he had some pretty strong dictatorial tendencies.

@TK

Duide i usually really like your politics but the CJ is a bit of an opportunist as well. so he aint no angel either (not that mush is but thats an established fact)

@gv: I agree, CJ is no angel, but the crimes committed by both are qualitatively different. I mean CJ did take oath on the first PCO after all, so your point is well taken. But then he did take a stand on March 9th.. and I support that..

And do, FWIW, I draw the line in the sand on March 9th and Nov 3rd. Also, CJ aint no public speaker. but you know.. it’s the principle of the thing.. not the personalities and nice or awful they might be (I know u don’t mean it that way, but you know CJ’s crimes pale in comparison to what Mush and Kleptocrats have done — at least in my opinion.)

@gv: i’d have to again agree with you re: Bhutto. on most points (in general) Even though most of the strategic vision was his (China policy, Nuclear policy etc) that the midgets have been implementing and taking credit of for a long time.

He was a wadera after all.. what more can I say. Not much has changed in our politics except that the thrid generation of the waderas is in power, and we have neo-waderas (Military men Lt. General and Up) and Urban Waderas (you know who)

Nawaz Sharif agenda is clear and transpert…….
we need some more leaders like ch. Nisar ali khan his sincerity is visible to his face & conversation he is accepting his faults and doing self examination even they are in the power

Mushahid will never get places these peoples.

now Mushahid is saying he is condemn policies of Musharaf……..but why nobody can see any single protest from him….but the thing is….Ab kis ko baywaqoof banana hay Public ko ya new Govt. ko……….Aur yeh hum ko bi dekhna hay !

Jitna bhi chamk lay , chahy sony ka hi ho………Lotta aakhir Lotta hi hota hay

@gv

Did you hear me say that he was an ‘angel’, no he was not, he had many shortcomings but his qualities outnumber his inadequacies as his achievements outshine his failures.

And Thanks a load for even grudgingly conceeding that he was awfully charismatic, a good speech maker and brilliant foreign policy maker.

But it would be absolutely wrong to say that he arrested NAP leadership and launched military operation in baluchistan TO KEEP HIS KURSI. He was perfectly safe as there was no threat to his kursi from NWFP or baluchistan as he had the majority of punjab and sind on his side. ‘Left-centre’ was his constituency and to act against ‘ideological kins’ was never easy. But coming on the heels of fall of Dacca, Afghanistan backed USSR/India sponsored Pashtunistan and Greater baluchistan movements could not be ignored. There was a clear and frightening threat to the territorial integrity of rest of Pakistan. So the decision to act was not wrong though there were numerous excesses committed on the ground.

And Zia’s elevation was wholly wrong as was conceeding to some of mullah’s demands .

But lets not be so harsh on the first popularly elected PM of Pakistan.

Beware … “Pakistan 2008″ is Kaidu.

@Commoner
“But lets not be so harsh on the first popularly elected PM of Pakistan.”

I agree to some extent. By enlarge I feel ZAB was a clever and an asset for Pakistan. We should not too harsh that we invite unwanted interference from military etc. We should also look into what environment he was ruling Pakistan under, but anyhow I am not a supporter of military solutions within our borders. AND we should not shy away from constructive critics, which is essential if we want to develop democracy. If we have have a too soft approach, then how can democracy develop. Then we will be keeping status quo and keep on having all the crooks and mafia from f.ex MQM.

/Saqib

@commoner

One of ZAB’s biggest shortcomings was that he was a vindictive person and made many enemies from friends and well-wishers because of that.

Below is an excerpt from Wiki to set the record straight on why he arrested the NAB leadership:

Wali Khan’s negotiations with now civilian Martial Law Administrator President Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto led to the signing of an agreement with the government in 1972, called the Tripatriate Agreement.[16] The agreement led to the lifting of martial law and removal of the ban on the National Awami Party. This led to the formation of National Awami Party coalition provincial governments in the NWFP and Balochistan. Despite the initial positive start, the agreement rapidly began to unravel due to the growing animosity between Khan and Bhutto.[17]

Liaqat bagh massacre & Framing the constitution

On March 23, 1973, the Federal Security Force, a paramilitary force under the alleged orders of Bhutto,[18] attacked a public opposition rally at the Liaquat Bagh in the town of Rawalpindi and killed a dozen people; many more were wounded by their automatic gunfire. Wali Khan narrowly escaped a bullet during the attack. Public anger amongst ethnic Pashtuns ran high, as almost all the dead and most of the wounded were from the NWFP and were mostly members of the National Awami Party. The enraged party workers and followers wanted to parade the dead bodies on the streets in Peshawar and other cities of the province, and provoke a full scale confrontation. Wali Khan rejected this notion and held back his infuriated party cadres, escorting the dead bodies to Peshawar; he had them buried quietly and solemnly with their bereaved families.[18]Despite reservations, Wali Khan agreed to a compromise with the precondition that issues of Judicial independence and provincial rights would be granted by the federal government after transition periods of five and ten years, respectively.[19] However, he succeeded in incorporating Hydel and gas royalties for NWFP and Balochistan as well as having obligated the Federal government to ensure equal improvements for all regions in Pakistan. Due to Bhuttos party’s large majority in Parliament and opposition divisions, Khan was critically unable to stop Bhutto from concentrating greater power in his office.[20]

It was during this period that Khan supported Bhutto’s move towards the release of prisoners of war captured by India in the 1971 war and full normalisation of relations through the Simla peace agreement.[21]

Arrest and Hyderabad tribunal

In 1974, after Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto’s close ally and governor of the North-West Frontier Province Hayat Sherpao was killed in a bomb blast, Bhutto convinced that Wali Khan and the National Awami Party were responsible, and in retaliation the federal government banned the National Awami Party. It also ordered the arrest and imprisonment of most of its senior leadership, including Wali Khan. The widely discredited Hyderabad tribunal subsequently put Wali Khan and his colleagues on trial.[22]

Refusing to participate in what he felt was a farcical trial, Wali Khan did not take part in his own legal defense.[23] In response to one of the charges before the Hyderabad Tribunal, that he had been sent Rs 20 million by Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi through a certain emissary, Wali Khan sarcastically filed a civil suit against the emissary for the recovery of the Rs 20 million. Wali Khan argued that, although he could not imagine why Indira Gandhi would send him such a large sum of money, he had never received the money, and obviously the emissary had embezzled the money.[24]

@Zarak Khan
Without taking a stance on the mentioned informtaion I would NOT urge anybody to use Wiki as a historical source. Anybody can write that text.

/Saqib

@Zarak Khan: Loved this part:

“Refusing to participate in what he felt was a farcical trial, Wali Khan did not take part in his own legal defense.[23] In response to one of the charges before the Hyderabad Tribunal, that he had been sent Rs 20 million by Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi through a certain emissary, Wali Khan sarcastically filed a civil suit against the emissary for the recovery of the Rs 20 million. Wali Khan argued that, although he could not imagine why Indira Gandhi would send him such a large sum of money, he had never received the money, and obviously the emissary had embezzled the money.[24]”

A reminder to us all that our checkerd past is full of villains of all stripes.

@Saqib

FYI. Sorry I should have put the footnotes, references and bibliography with my comment for you to check:

Footnotes
^ a b c Chowk, Khan Abdul Wali Khan: His Fathers Shadow? January 25, 2006. Last accessed June 23 2006
^ Interview with Wali Khan, Feroz Ahmed Pakistan Forum, Vol. 2, No. 9/10 (Jun. – Jul., 1972), pp. 11-13-18
^ Schofield, Victoria (August 22, 2003), Afghan Frontier Feuding and Fighting in Central Asia. Tauris Parke Paperbacks; General edition ISBN-10: 1860648959
^ Khan described the incident: ‘I was very nearly killed. A British soldier had taken his bayonet out of his gun and I saw him slit the head of another man open. He was about to attack me, but an Indian soldier intervened and pushed me out of the way
^ Bannerjee, Muklaika (Saturday, February 04, 2006) Wali Baba, my adoptive father. Indian express. Available online [1]
^ Khan later explained his position, “..I was amazed that the British, who had given India one government from the Khyber to Cape Comorin should break it up so quickly. It reminded me of when we were children and we used to sit on the river bank and make castles in the sand; and then in one movement we’d kick it all down.”
^ Amir, Intikhab (27 January 2006) Wali Khan: A life of struggle. The Dawn. DAWN group. Available online at [2]
^ see Awami National Party website [3]. Last accessed on 07/19/07
^ a b c d e f Ziring, Lawrence(Nov 2004) Pakistan in the 20th Century. A Political History. OUP Pakistan
^ National Party website. Last accessed on 19/07/07
^ a b c d Mazari, Sherbaz (1999) A Journey into disillusionmentOxford University Press
^ a b c d Gauhar, Altaf (1996) Ayub Khan: Pakistan’s First Military Ruler .Oxford University Press, USA (September 28, 1996) ISBN-10: 019577647X
^ see Elections in Pakistan
^ Last phase of the dialogues Badruddin Umar [4]last accessed on 19/07/07
^ Zeitlin, Arnold e-mail exchange with the author(14 June 2006)
^ Ahmed Feroz Interview with Wali Khan,(Jun. – Jul., 1972), Pakistan Forum, Vol. 2, No. 9/10 pp. 11–13 18
^ for details of the tripartite accord read Pirzada, Sayyid A. S. (2000) The Politics of the Jamiat-i-Ulema-i-Islam Pakistan, 1971–1977 Oxford University Press Inc, USA ISBN 0-19-579302-1.
^ a b c Khan, Hamid (March 4th 2004) Constitutional and Political History of Pakistan. Oxford University press
^ |Report on Shaukat`s participation in election for UN secretary generalship all rubbish: ShujaatFriday June 23, 2006. Pak Tribune. retrieved 1/08/2007
^ Under the Velvet Glove.(Mar. 5, 1973) TIME Magazine
^ Trial and Error The Advent and Eclipse of Benazir Bhutto Iqbal Akhund ISBN10: 0195791606
^ Newburg, Paula (2002) Judging the State: Courts and Constitutional Politics in Pakistan (Cambridge South Asian Studies). Cambridge University Press. pp 146–150 ISBN 0-521-89440-9
^ Newburg, Paula (2002) Judging the State: Courts and Constitutional Politics in Pakistan (Cambridge South Asian Studies). Cambridge University Press. pp 146–150 ISBN 0-521-89440-9
^ a b Niazi, M.A (27 January 2006) Wasted asset. The Nation. Nawa-e-Waqt Group. Available online at [5]
^ a b c d Ahmed, Sarfaraz (Monday, October 10, 2005) ‘Bugging’ Wali Bagh for history. Daily Times, Pakistan.retrieved 10 January 2007
^ a b Zareef, Adil(26 January 2006)Wali Khan — demise of a dream. the Daily Times[6]
^ Ghazali, Abdus Sattar: ISLAMIC PAKISTAN: ILLUSIONS & REALITY A comprehensive and detailed political history of Pakistan Chapter X: Nawaz Shrif’s second stint in Office Page 3 Pakhtoonkhwa: Renaming of the NWFP Available online at [7]
^ Ansar Naqvi & Wasim Shamsi(11 August 1998) Benazir, Wali lead big anti-Kalabagh Dam rallies. The NEWS. Jang Group. Available online at [8]
^ “Khan also added the line “and no disrespect meant to Hitler” TRIAL IN PAKISTAN IMPERILS CRITICS; Key Opposition Party Faces Crippling: 44 People Accused of Sedition May 9, 1976, Sunday By WILLIAM BORDERS Special to The New York Times
^ a b c d The NEWS Special Report: Wali Khan, an appraisal Retrieved 10th, March 2006
^ Dr. Malik, Farid.(1 April 2006) A The story of a man of conviction. The Nation. Nawa-e-Waqt group
^ Fight well Fought by I.A Rehman (feb 2006) Newsline available online at [9]last accessed on 10-07-07
^ a b c Wali Khan passes away.(Friday,27 January , 2006)The Nation. Nawa-e-Waqt. Available online at [10]
^ Cowasjee, Ardeshir (21 June 1997) Murtaza’s murder. The Dawn. The DAWN Group. Available online at [11]. Also see Cowasjee (25 April 1996) Old Hat. The Dawn. The DAWN group [12]
^ a b Khan, Abdul Wali Khan (1986) Facts are Sacred Jaun Publishers
^ a b c Yousafzai, Ashfaq Wali Khan (21 January 2006) passes away. Available online at [13]
^ see Pakistan: Partition and Military Succession: Pashtunistan. Available online at[14]
^ Syed, Anwar H. (1992) The Discourse and Politics of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. New York: St. Martin’s Press. p 190.
^ Hilton, Isabel(2001-12-03)Pashtun Code. The New Yorker. Retrieved 10 January 2007
^ Minorities at Risk.Available online at Chronology for Pashtuns (Pushtuns) in Pakistan
^ Khan, Adeel Pakhtun Ethnic Nationalism: From Separation to Integration. (Feb 2003) Asian Ethnicity, Volume 4, Number 1, February 2003 Carfax Publishing: Taylor & Francis Group.
^ Rahman, Tariq.Pashto Language & Identity Formation in Pakistan. Contemporary South Asia, July 1995, Vol 4, Issue 2, p151,20

References
Mazari, Sherbaz Khan (1999) A Journey to Disillusionment.Oxford University Press Pakistan ISBN 0-19-579076-6
Pirzada, Sayyid A. S. (2000) The Politics of the Jamiat-i-Ulema-i-Islam Pakistan, 1971–1977 Oxford University Press Inc, USA ISBN 0-19-579302-1
Wolpert, Stanley (1993) Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan: His Life and Times Oxford University Press Inc, USA. ISBN 0-19-507661-3
Khan, Adeel Pakhtun Ethnic Nationalism: From Separation to Integration. (Feb 2003) Asian Ethnicity, Volume 4, Number 1, February 2003 Carfax Publishing: Taylor & Francis Group. Available online at [15]. Last accessed on 27/05/2006
Newburg, Paula (2002)Judging the State: Courts and Constitutional Politics in Pakistan (Cambridge South Asian Studies)Cambridge University Press ISBN 0-521-89440-9
Ziring, Lawrence (2004) Pakistan in the 20th Century: A Political History OUP Pakistan. ISBN 0-19-579276-9

Further reading
In the Supreme Court of Pakistan: Written Statement of Khan Abdul Wali Khan By Khan Abdul Wali Khan Summary By Khan Abdul Wali Khan. Published 1975 Unknown Binding: 138 pages Publisher: s.n.]
The Pathan Unarmed: Opposition and Memory in the North West Frontier By Mukulika Banerjee By Mukulika Banerjee Published 2000 School of American Research Press
Facts are Facts: The Untold Story of India’s Partition. by Wali Khan, Syeda Saiyidain Hameed

@Zarak Khan
Thanks a lot…I hope you have checked them all

/Saqib

@Saqib:

Have to second you there. Wikipedia is ok to get basic information about Britney Spears and such but should not be used for anything more serious than that.

@Saqib & thehustler: gotta disagree. Most info on wikipedia is at least worth considering as a starting point. The references provided by Zarak Khan should be an indication of that.

You’d be surprised how quickly Wikipedia reflects the changing situation. Benazir’s death was already on it within a day. Quite a few dedicated people work on these article.

I wish more pakistani’s worked on these and consolidated their historical knowledge on wikipedia as this is one source of information which is not within easy reach of our callous governments who think nothing of destroying and whitewashing the past to make themselves look better.

It’s not perfect, but I won’t delegitimize it to the point of saying it’s worth only getting info about Britney Spears.. I mean.. for that you got CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and FOX to name a few

@Tab’an Khamosh
I use Wiki myself and find it fine if I want some basic knowledge, but I would NEVER use it as a reference in a serious allegation against anybody. I am not saying that the particular reference from Zarak Khan is wrong. It is just a principle that I would not use it in that kind of cases since anybody can edit the information.

/Saqib

for Brittany info go to tmz.com

Looks like her desi paparazzi boyfriend Adnan Ghalib has now married her in Mexico.

@Saqib: I will try and get references for you

@Taban & Saqib:

Case in point - Check out this section on Pervez Elahi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chaudhry_Pervaiz_Elahi&diff=192244981&oldid=189552343

The paragraph highlighted in yellow.

“His rule in Punjab was the best as he did a lot of development by spending billions of rupees on the projects of public importance. He introduced emergency services like rescue 1122 and nobody will die because of inadequate medical assistance”

@Zarak Khan

Please don’t be offended. It was NOT meant as an insult - only my view and as info.

@thehustler
That is exactly what is dangerous about info from Wiki….anybody can write anything.

/Saqib

Agree with TK and ZK about wiki its a great source of info as long as you make sure what you are reading is well documented and the source info is legitimate.

@TK concede your point about the CJ

@ commoner

I did not grudgingly concede ZAB’s qualities vis a vis rhetoric and foreign policy i am a big fan of those but think that his operation in baluchistion (which was not anti commie from anywhere - merely authoritative) his treatement of his own party members, his treatment of former allies and his economic policies buggered us six ways from sunday and the worse possible thing he did is promote zia because that seriously screwed the country up big time.

@thehustler: well, your point is well taken. I think once more Pakistani’s start participating in the editorial process, hopefully better and more reliable information will come to fore.

Truth be told, I mainly use wikipedia for scientific and technical information because it is less contested and controversial. For political issues I can see how it can get out of hand. Even the US senate staffers and the Bush Admin. officials were caught (key here) trying to edit information to suit _their_ spin.

But given that Pakistani’s have made a name for themselves in nausar-baazi and misrepresentation (and most are proud of their ‘clever’ conduct) I wouldn’t be surprized if the information on wikipedia stays more polluted.

the gist of Zarak Khan’s wikipedia quote seems to make sense. Moreover, I haven’t seen any counter arguments with independent corroborating evidence (not that that in itself is evidence of Zarak Khan’s reference being correct)

TK

@thehustler

Amazing….Even Nazeer Naji could not have been hired to write such a qaseeda about Pervez Elahi.

/Saqib

yeah but what are the sources for that charming ’soliloquy’ about our dearly b’lovd former chief minister

@ Optimist

I see the both of you have simply refused to accept any other view than your own. I didn’t even bring Mush up in my Bhutto tirade, Optimist, then why would you? To attack my character? Do you think it becomes fact if I start calling Bhutto a kutta? Vile abuse of leaders shows ignorance rather than educated hatred.

I am a Pakistani. And I do not approve of Musharraf’s policies, and I despise Altaf. Regardless of my opposition to the Mush government, those “beghairat Mush lovers” are also Pakistani, but you don’t see that.

I have repeatedly said this, but you refuse to accept. I give up. I believe that you’re actually Musharraf’s tatta out here to create divisions amongst our people.

Go breed your enmity elsewhere. And just to talk the way you do - Bhutto Kutta.

@ Commoner

I may be wrong about the political cell creation by ZA Bhutto. But you are very right about the Nationalization view - both inside and outside Pakistan. The point is, it did not do Pakistan good, regardless of how people viewed it. A leader has to make right decisions in the face of overwhelming opposition. I think ZA Bhutto had that capability, but he got carried away. An excellent speaker too.

Mahatir Mohammad (Malaysian Ex-PM, Imran Khans role model) when asked “Who do you think could have changed the Muslim world around?”, promptly replied “Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto could have. But he was selfish”

@ GuyFawkes

I am not unaware of his shortcomings neither am I shying away from them. Yet he was the BEST political leader that Pakistan had.

As regards the retrospective assesment of his policy of nationalization, it failed to produce the desired results because bureaucracy could not handle it well.

Mahatir was right, he could have, and he did it to an extent. It was he who taught Arabs to use oil as a weapon during the 1973 arab israel war. But the gods ganged up against him-America, Army and Allah(read mullah) and his Awam could not save him and he went down fighting.

Jis dhaj sey koi maqtal ko geya woh shan salamat rehti hey

@Zarak khan

Where you could have done by posting a link you copy/pasted the entire page,lol. Kiya hey na nalaik bachoon wala kam.

Do I have remind you who opposed the creation of Pakistan and who stood against Jinnah and with Gandhi and Nehru. Do I have to remind you who had personal friendship with Indra and her progeny and who used to get official protocol and that who preferred to be buried where?

Being vindicitive seems to be a small personality defect, in comparison.

@gv

The country was not screwed by one person, it was an institution behind whose unquenchable thirst for total power and dominance is responsible for the mess. Bhutto had no hand in the coup d’etat of 1958 and 1999.

dude who do you support politically. Do not bother to name the party/leader if it has never won more than 5 seats in national assembly.

@commoner

believe it or not i’m a ppp fan but just dont like blind adulation of personalities. i think ppp is the only real federally representative party with relatively larger smattering of principled effective leaders than all the others. incidentally also support ANP’s general ethos of greater autonomy at the provincial level.

@commoner: I think if Bhutto (ZA) had checked his megalomania a bit and chose not to rig the elections Pakistan may have been a different country today. I tend to agree with Mahatir’s statement though I’d be interested to know how exactly he was selfish? Bhutto massively rigged the elections, and he didn’t need to.

Re: Bachaa Khaan, I used to hold views similar to yours until I read Maulana Abulkalaam Azaad’s (auto?) Biography. It would seem from his account that the whole 2 nation theory was touch and go and Nehru & Gandhi thought till the last minute that Jinnah and League were bluffing … He seems to think that Nehru’s press conference precipitated the “direct action” fasaadaat in Kolkatta (don’t remember exactly) instigated by Jinnah & company.

In any case, Ghaffar khan got screwed by both sides basically. And really, he wasn’t as bad as the Zia era attack dogs made him out to be.. I think he didn’t even think in terms of Muslim Hindu etc.. I wish that thinking had prevailed in India.

Personally I think that Muslim “leadership” started a grand tradition of sh!tt!ing their pants in the face of difficult odds by deciding to fall for the British ploy of dividing India, scared sh!tless “keh hindu hamaiN khaa jaaeNgay”..

62 years later, hindu hamaen khaa bhi rahay haiN aur ham dunya jahaan maeN ba-izzat bhi ho rahay haiN (in the meantime) I think Gandhi & Nehru went with the partition at the last minute (despite all the BS dramay bazi by Gandhi) because the partition divided a gigantic Muslim minority in 3 parts (plz don’t accuse me of being an MQM Munafiq .. I feel I have arrived at this conclusion independently via a different route and for different historical reasons.)

this is my paranoid hunch but I think gandhi & nehru were afraid that Muslims might usurp power in all of india if they were not broken down and problems created for them.

From a historical perspective, the Muslim imprint is a lot deeper than we give ourselves credit for, and if Muslims had stayed united in one geographical unit, it might not have been as bad as some of the incompetents in the ML thought it was going to be.

The british had only been there for a hundred years… I’m not talking about a new Muslim dynasty but as at least equal citizens.

In hindsigt, Bachaa Khaan was right. They did “throw him to the wolves”.

The facts of partition are that NEhru and Patel did not want a combined India under any cost. The Cabinet mission plan was accepted by Jinnah but rejected by Nehru and Patel-( Not Gandhi)- They said that if they( the Muslims) remained it would be very difficult for them to rule the way they wanted.

One of the great tragedies that Muslims of India have faced is the lack of populist leaders. Imagine Pakistan is 160 million, Bangladesh another 150 million and there are 145 million muslims in India. T’baan Khamosh rightly points out the timidity of the Muslims of India when it came to showing collective courage. The single most important quality in an indivisual and a nation is Courage- and that means having faith in one’s own capabilities to-day and tomorrow and so on.
But what has happened has happened- what is important is what we do from to-day onwards and the NEWS is not GOOD. ANP which is the majority party in Frontier has appointed the most corrupt indivisual as Chief Minister who is a cousin of the leader Isfandyar. Well what does this say about what is coming down the road for people of the Frontier ?

@ T’baan Khamosh

I am in general agreement with your commentary above.The overall point I would like to make is to request our Pakistani brothers and sisters to keep an open mind and continue to educate oneself and be informed.

For example I have come to realise that, by and large, the history I was taught in Pakistan during my early schooling years is not entirely correct and is at times wrong and pure propaganda. It is written and presented either from the viewpoint of the British colonial masters or from whomever was running the Pak government at the time.

“The further backward you look……..the further forward you can see.” This is what Sir Winston Churchill said when talking about the relevance of history to one’s current circumstance.

To close let me recommend one inspring book I have read recently. Three Cups of Tea: One Man’s Mission to Promote Peace . . . One School at a Time by Greg Mortenson. It pertains to Pakistan and will guarantee that you will not set it down till you finish it.

@gv

happy to know that !
To have difference of opinion in details is a sign of cerbral health.

@Taban Khamoosh

Being an ardent admirer of Napoleon, Bhutto unfortunately shared some of his personality afflictions . After all he was a human!

As regards rigging in 1977 elections, first yes it was a mistake in fact a blunder,he could have won easily anyway. It is now reported that on listening to the overwhelming success he asked Pirzada or who ever was around him at that time that who has done this to us?
Now was rigging really ‘massively’ , No it was not. 23 or 24 seats were singled out by PNA for re-elections during the successfully concluded negotiations. Zia chose to struck the same night, but that is another story.

On another note, muslims of Sub continent were never a single nation. The heroes of one region were the villians of the others. Khushhal khan khattak was an avowed enemy of Mughals. Punjabis remember of Abdali as an invader and not a saviour.

Starting from Plasey to fall of Ouadh there was a gradual but certain English enchroachment towards the power center of Muslim rule in India. The war of Independence was a last desperate effort to retain whatever was left of the Takht e Delhi. Since the muslim ruling elite were concentrated in UP, and sine they were the natural loosers in the new arrangement, therefore the first resistence manifested here. The confrontation over Hindi-Urdu was irrelevant to majority of muslims of India but it was potrayed by the UP elite as a muslim-battle against hindus . For centuries Muslims invaders had ruled over Hindus by sword and they were not ready to come to terms with the changing times. The possible specter of the democracy was therefore an anathema to muslim elite like Sir Syed, of muslim minority provinces, like UP , they were fearful that by being numerically superior “hindu hamaiN khaa jaaeNgay” . They therefore started demanding guarantees, safeguards, seperate electorate, quotas, disproportional representations and weightage. It is no secret that muslims of UP and CP got more representational at the cost of Muslims of Punjab and Bengal.
Jinnah sb used the threat of Pakistan as a bargaining chip to get a better deal within united India, he never actually wanted Pakistan, until the very end that is.(see Ayesha Jalal’s- Jinnah the sole spokesman) He was ready to co-exit in united India, he actually accepted the cabinet mission plan. You are right it was Nehru who chickened out.
Hence “Two nation theory” was a tool for bargaining and not a Holy doctrine.

If you see Iqbal also had a gut feeling of our “Indus identity”. When he famously dreamt of a national homeland, this is what he had to say:

“ I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single State. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of North-West India. ”

You may notice Bengal being conspicous by absence in his legendary dream.

I have nothing against the house of Bacha Khan, it was just to draw a parallel, I infact admire Asfandyar’s politics.