i agree with baloch leaders that just apology is not sufficient, but i also apriciate that AZ understands problems of balochistan and is willing to do sth(not only for baloch but other neglacted people as well like people of fata, nwfp, sindh etc) .this apology is 1st step in right direction.

The main problem we have faced for the last 60 years is that the govt of Pakistan merely took over for the British and remained ” BRITISH RULERS themselves ” The rules ands laws taht the British made in order to control and oppress the people were and are still in place and have been used by everyone who has been in power. For example if you own land you do not own the minerals that lie under the ground- the British Govt owns it- and now the followers of the British own it. The safety and security acts that Musharraf has used and so have those before him were put in place by the British.

An apology means only that you recognise the problem.
How can you hope to undo the pain and agony that you have subjected the Baloch people whose sons have been killed.
Can you bring them back by an apology . I suppose the next apology is going to come towards the people of the border regions of the Frontier who have been killed and maimed at the behest of a foreign power by a dictator who was bought by that power . Will that apology bring back to life those that were killed at Dama Dola in Bajaur ?

Can storied urn or animated bust
Back to its mansion call the fleeting breath? -( THOMAS GRAY’s Elegy)-

If we are serious about HEALING the wounds that have been inflicted repeatedly by those in the corridors of power- then first we need the Judiciary and then a complete repeal of all colonial laws- so that we may finally gain our Freedoms. Then we will forgive the repentent evil doers.

I think that its a step in the right direction.

But yes its not enough.

there has to be total autonomy and as it was intended in 1973 constitution that the concurrent list would be removed in 10 years .

After restoring original constitution Parliament should give concurrent list to provinces in 5 years.

More over there has to be serious INCREASE in Baluchistan budget as a compensation for mistakes.

The 38 % literacy rate should be quickly taken to 80s.
75 % living in Kacha houses should be taken to cemented houses.
Electricity ,gas,pure water should be available in every village.
Schools hospitals roads railways.

And specially Gwadar and Industry should be built to give Employment.

Yes, it is not enough but a step in right direction.

Balochistan should get autonomy and should be given all means to own their wealth.

Same should be done likewise in other provinces.

daekha! kitnay naashukray haiN baloch! kuch din baiTh kay chaaT naheeN saktay thay itni achi apology ko?

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/feb2008-daily/27-02-2008/update.htm#72

Dr. Hai say change of faces won’t do something good change the system.

@Fahim23 : Brozzer, balochistan ko autonomy da di do hamaray jrunull do do arab dollar ki jaidaden california aur france men kahan sa banay ga? kharbon rupay ki gas muft men punjab or karachi ko milti hai.. balochi kutton ki tarha rehta hen bechry.. jab kuch mangta he to kutton ki tara goli mar di jati hi..

pls don’t say things like these.. our jurnull’s feeling and bank accounts will be hurt.. saray raqbay tumhry liya hen

Balochis are only 4.5 million.

Why can’t we give EVERY Balochi free education/housing etc. After all their population is so less that it should be very easy to please our brothers.

If I were in charge, I would give free education and thousands of scholarships for Baluchis and a guaranteed job for every Balochis.

Come on, Why don’t we shoot our Generals and give guarantees to our Baloach brothers. And yes, apology comes first.

@Optimist

There unislamic, unethical, illegal policy of dividing the wealth generated from smaller federating units to spend on only one part of larger province is the root cause of Bangladesh, Independant Balochistan, Pukhtunkhuwah, Siraikistan, and Sindhudesh.

Every province must have the authority to spend the wealth it generates on its own people, rather then feeding every growing with population of only one part of punjab. It is their right before any body else’s!

Jab punjab ka pait bhar jaye ga to shayad wo balochon, pathan aur sindhyun ki sun len. Humaray mulk nay bangladesh paida ker liya magar ab bhee Punjab ka pait nahin bhara!

@Fahim23: I think blaming it on Punjab would be doing a simplistic analysis of the situation. No doubt Punjab is the biggest culprit.. but look inside the machine and you won’t see only punjabi’s protecting punjab’s interest.

If punjabi’s were so smart why would they allow a Muhajir Jurnail (actually 2) to rise to the top .. and good thing both of those 22 grade officers took FULL advantagle of that “Fazl-e-Rabbi” and reamed all of Pakistan using the dominantly Punjabi Army.

See Part II & III of Brother Altaf Hussain’s Qaumi Yekjehti speech 1997 in which he explains to punjabi’s of Birmingham that first of all, He doesn’t call paThans “AKhroTs” and second of all 98% of soldiers are innocent of the crimes they commit because it is the executive officers (above Subedar Major) who have any say in policy.

So, you have to see the makeup of the civil & military bureaucracy because THAT is the engine of our misfortunes.

@ Fahim23

your language is completely racist and targets whole segment of population of one province. I think it is not only unacceptable but shows lack of awareness of issues.

You should instead should be targeting those Elite Generals/bureaucrats who are diverting all the resources to their families and friends. I have lived in Lahore and the State Schools there don’t have toilets in the 21st century. If a place like Lahore (whom you might think is the ultimate receiver of that money) is like this, you can imagine rest of ordinary Punjabis. There are no toilets in many of Punjab’s villages.

Money is going to Generals/bureaucrats and their business partners Industrialists.

Our generals are the one who made Bangladesh. Ordinary people didn’t even know till it was over.

Even now, go to Punjab university and look at archives department in New Campus. They have all newspapers starting from 14th of August 1947. Only missing year is 1971. No papers are available because they were not reporting anything and telling us all was well.

Finding those newspaper would make an interesting reading on history of censorship in Pakistan.

To ye sara Balochistan ka Paisa gaya kahan? vo kaisey wapas asakta hai?

Its very unfortunate that even the supposedly educated people cannot get above the street level talk. It is very easy to play blame game with the convenience of not having to rely any facts or figures.

Has any province been neglected? Maybe and maybe not !!

Has any province usurped the share of other province? Again, maybe and maybe not !!!

These questions cannot be answered unless one has all the facts and figures. The relevant statistics will be the revenues generated by a particular province and transferred to the federation and correspondingly, the money spent by the federation in that province.

If any particular province has received less than that has been taken from it, then that particular province is subsidizing other provinces.

I am just saying that we could easily treat Balochis better because their population is 4.5 million.

Balochi Nawabs also get the blame because they are big feudals who never let the money roll over to their ’slaves’. I read in an Interview where Bugti said (in 1989 Jang)

‘We should be given money and should be allowed how we deem fit’. When he was asked why he didn’t allow schools in his area, he said:

‘Our people don’t want schools, roads etc. We just want to rule ourselves’.

It is true that the money that went to Balochistan never reached the masses. Rest of the money was pocketed by top generals.

@ Fahim23 on February 28th, 2008 12:50 am
i agree with u and i also have same views as u have.
i think creation of Pakistan is based on theory that Hindu people were in majority in India and we feared that we Muslims wont get anything from India bc we were minority so we demanded Pakistan so that we can protect our identity(as Muslim) and rights.

today i see same situation in our motherland Pakistan Punjab is biggest province(as Hindu were in India), Sindhi Baluchistan, and nwfp are small and neglected provinces of pakistan(as Muslims were in India).

Bangladesh did same thing in 1971 as Muslims did in 1947 only diff is this that Muslims got independence from India, and bengali people got independence from punjabistan ooopps i mean Pakistan

number of people( from Sindhi, Baluchistan and nwfp and fata etc) who think that they r living in punjabistan and not Pakistan is increasing, but it is still less than those (in same areas ) who think that although they r neglected and don’t get their rights but they r still in pakistan and not punjabistan.

Punjab should change its mindset as soon as possible in order 2 save Pakistan

@Optimist and others
u r right toilets is rally big issue and enough to prove that Punjab is innocent. i appeal AZ AND NS AND new govt kindly solve this issue if they want to save pakistan. OK sorry that thing about toilets was only criticism for the sake of criticism. dear optimist i realise that common people of Punjab r innocent and most people in neglected Pakistan do realise that, but problem is this that those innocent people of Punjab don’t support other neglected pakistanis (i know they don’t support real culprits as well), but by not supporting neglected pakistanis they r indirectly supporting real culprits. so i request u and other people of Punjab that plz support other neglected pakistanis in getting their rights and they will support u in toilets issue.

@adonis: and where do you suggest we get these “facts and figures” bro? Pakistan Bureau of Statistics? Look at how the atta, ghee etc crisis was created. things were exported due to a fake “overflow” determined based on fake reports from bureau of statistics.

where are you going to get your data from a corrupt floppy disk?

I agree with the approach you describe bro, but We have to use our best judgement, because everything and every statistic is suspect. Optimist is right, 1971 doesn’t exist in our collective consciousness. If it does it was those treacherous bengalis.. not the punjabis and the rest of Pakistan (especially the Urdu mafia) which caused this problem.

Remember the first speech of M.A. Jinnah in Dhakka and Sh. Mujibur-Rehman stood up and talked in favor of Bengali as a second national language. And Quaid-e.Azam told himd to stuff it. (this is the legend I’ve heard) we saw the result in less than 30 years.

But we don’t see any mention of it except keh totay ki tara raTT lagaai hui hai “do laKht ho gaya! do laKht ho gaya.. hindu hindu.. chaTTa (6th) behri beRa.. Amreeka nay madad nahin kee blah blah”

pehlay cheen ki taraf dekhtay thay, ab “strategic depth” ki baat kartay hain. Yeh hai intelligence hamari army ki top brass ki. And these are the idiots we seem to love to rule over us because they’re “so nice and tidy”

@ Adonis

I agree with you that it is a complex debate. I am surprised that Bangladesh has not developed even though it thought that whole of Pakistan was taking away its money.

Illiterate people like Altaf Hussain say that Bangladeshi currency is strong and they have developed (their source of information is Munnu Bhai’s column in 1992 where everyone’s brain has stuck).

It is very easy to see that Pakistani currency is stronger than Bangladesh, our GDP is almost double, our annual budget is more than double of Bangladesh. Just exporting some cheap garments doesn’t make Bangladesh Asian Tiger. Their democratic credentials are worse than us. Their political leaders are still not talking with each other despite Army in charge (No PUNJABI ARMY this time!!!)

It is definitely very complex issue. Bangladesh had access to its GOLD (jute) since 1971 and still poor. We haven’t had anything from them since 1971 but still (relatively) doing far better!

That is why I believe that we need to accommodate our people better so that they don’t have delusions of separation and then find out that their dream was sour.

I never blamed people of Karachi for supporting real culprits, i.e. MQM. I think they are not fully aware of the crimes.

Suicide bombers adopt this philosophy to attack the civilians in the West. And they are wrong.

@Optimist
either u r with sth or against. how can u be neutral?

Where does the money Go To?

Generals pockets (and their Bachha parties like MQM) and is used to pay criminals and murderes (like May 12 Bhatta Khaores).

Mega Corruption Scandals of Musharraf (illegal) Government

http://pkpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/lootsalebymusharafpdf.pdf

@ 27122007

People like believe in pure evil that is why they blame Islam as a terrorist sponsor religion too.

world is not that black and white.

I am sure that you are with MQM Criminal Faction because you don’t seem innocent (from your twisted brain and ‘ooops’ like writing). You are WITH them and not neutral.

Blaming civilians is not justifiable. There are thousands of reasons. Ordinary Karachiites are too busy earning their daily living and very few people have time to do research and read between the lines.

@Optimist

it is like
”A: no no we don’t support mush but we don’t oppose him as well.”

B:”Mr: A u know mush killed so many pakistanis, if u and other people would have opposed him, he might have not killed so many people”

A” u stupid i told u before that i don’t support him, u don’t listen 2 me”

@Optimist on February 28th, 2008 1:41 pm

i don’t support MQM. i m against MQM.

@Optimist

see that’s good thing about doing debate. we get to know each others point of view. now i understand Ur point of view as well, now u have made me understand that u are too busy earning Ur daily living, that’s y u don’t need to worry about pakistan and its people who r dying and protesting for their basic rights. but don’t get them, BC they r minority.

In the political talk shows one would hardly see any participation of Baloch Politicians, this just an examplery thing for us that for our national issues, we damn care about the wishes of Baloch people. Its just disgusting. We have gas in our kitchens, but we cannot provide basic necessaties to the Balochi people, eduction & health, what a bunch of greedy people we are.
we go by maths i.e; Balochistan have only 14 MNAs so its useless to pay any attention to this area. None of the major parties have any mass support in Balochistan due to their lack of interest in Balochistan.

There should be a talk show in which the host should grill the major parties about ignoring Balochistan. I hope someone would do it. But alas Talat in one of the programs just before election threw the blame on Dr. Hai & bashed him, to whom he hardly invited.

Its just disgusting on part of media & politicians too in ignoring Baloch people. Shame on all of them.

@Asif
You have raised a good point. I hope the anchor persons can invite relevant people from all provinces, so that we have a just representation in the media. By doing this we can also get rid of misperceptions and rumours.

/Saqib

http://www.express.com.pk/images/NP_LHE/20080228/Sub_Images/1100359991-2.gif

Atlast someone is there to see this gap. A very fine article by Javed Chaudhry about the Balcoh. Thanks Javed Chaudhry.

If the apology was serious Mr. Zardari shouldn’t have agreed to the Governorship of someone like Zulfiqar Magsi… Don’t tell me Baloch people have no better “leader”…

@ 27122007

Go read my comments again, starting right from the top. I think I will be repeating myself when I reply to your recent comments.

@ nota

I think that this appology is a symbolic. We need to do a lot to put things right. It is not even a first proper step.

@Optimist
OK

Insted of appology give Balochistan,NWFP and Sindh gase,elect,oil,tobaco,water and other natural resources.

Give them right on their own wealth

Absolutely right balochistan should be given provincial autonomy and people of balochistan should get their rights. Very importantly there should be no opression on people of balochistan by any force. We all people of pakistan should help our brothers in building balochistan rather than make them suffer, by raising our voices through all means available.

And also make effort and dua to bring peace in whole pakistan and around the world.

Appology is definitly the right direction and it should be accepted if its sincere. Its sencerity will become evident in the days to come.

For the bloach leaders to reject it outright, it makes them look like trouble makers who are intent on confrontation.

I know not alot about the issues of smaller privinces as Greater Pakistan has always been my concern but I can’t help feeling that although there will be acctual issues and just cuases for smaller provinces to feel the way they do, there are also forces trying to manipulate the situation too as was the case in fall of Dhaka. Yes there are issues in smaller provinces that need setteling but there are also forces there that have anti Pakistan agenda.

I have some simple questions;

If all the revenue generated by a smaller province, was distributed with in the province then wouldn’t there be unproportional development when compared with the larger province that may not be generating the same amount of revenue per person?

would this in turn not create the same problems of provincial sectarianism that we have today?

Also, is it not the case that all the Provinces palyed thier role for independence of Pakistan through its head count(number of poeple) so shouldn’t the basis of wealth apportionment be based on the total population of pakistan? Do brothers not share their wealth?

So for example, all the revenue of all provinces is collected in a pool and then distributed over the total population. This could be made even more just by setting a poverty thresh hold and using that as the base of apportionment. So for example, it can be assumed that there is less infrastructure Bloachistan, rural Sindh, and Sarhad. There is more proprtional poverty there also and there are less facilties. So if the pool of revenue was devide based on the population below the poverty line then each Province would get the same amount per person.

You would then have the Issue of financing the bureaucracy, the army, health service and other civil institues. The greater the population of a province, the greater its budget. So some apportionment would have to be made for services that serve all the province equally or these services would have to be decentralised.
A better system of taxation and performance management could reduce the demand of the greater provinces that require greater proprtion of services.
Im not sure how viable this seems but resettlement in samller provinces through development might also be a solution
Im only a basic student of business and finance yet I can see how this matter of revenue distribution is so complex. Ovbousely, there are soultions to most problems but they are not as simple as some peolpe on this forum think they are.

I think it would be unfair to simply say that all revenue generated by a particular province should be spent in that province. As this would be aginst the Idea of Pakistan’s independence. However, it goes with out saying that if a small province is providing a great amount of the country’s revenue then its public should have the same standard of life if not better than the rest of Pakistan.

Even if a better standard of life was given to the smaller province that produce greater revenue, then there would be a natuarl migration of population. This in the long term would even out the effects of subjective development but this would only work if the local leaders did not use inflamatory rhetoric against the migrating entrants.

It might even be possible to set a development thresh hold for the smaller and under developed provinces so that the greater part of the revenue of that province is not pooled in the central reseve unless a minimum thresh hold of standard of life is reached. However setting such a thresh hold would be a comlex issue and it would still not ensure that the anti Pakistan forces would melt away.

I think that the problems of smaller provinces should be adressed immediatley but as Pakistanis we all need to look at the bigger picture and not be part of any sort of sectairianism.

I so we could think outside the box and see our selves as Pakistanis and not Punjabis Sindhis, Pashtoon or Baloach. Beter still, if our first and foremost identity was Islam and the brotherhood of Ukhuwah.

A lot of people have wondered astray from the prurpose of Pakistan and independence in recent years. Might I say that alot of people have wondered astray from the purpose of their creation for this realitively small meaningless life and have ignored Allah Ta’ala and his beloved Messenger. People have choosen dunaya over deen, an instance over eternity.
I ask these people to look in to the meaning of the word ‘Pakistan’. The sole purpose of suggesting this word was to eradicate sectarianism and promote one identity. This intention was derived from Islamic concept of Ummah (one nation). You need not to read the thousends of books written on the Ideology of Pakistan to see that. For those of you who still remember a Doctor called Iqbal, the sole most repeated message of his peotry is to reject all ties and be tied in the bond of Ghulaami-e-Muhammad STAWS.

I so WISH that we could think out side the box………

My spellings are terrible, I know.

@m5433d

It is unnatural and silly argument to advocate people to forget their origin and just make believe to prefer unnatural and artificial label of being called Pakistanis. People basically recognize themselves either on the basis of Religion or their tribe. Pakistan does not come into both.

It is Balochistan, Sindh, Punjab, Sarhad and Bangladesh who formed Pakistan. It is not vice versa. They didn’t create pakistan to forget their mother tounges, unique culture and way of life. Pakistan represent the cooperation and brotherhood of reamining four provinces.

As far as resources are concerned, smaller provinces are demanding the PROPER share. They demand the same piece of bread which is eaten by punjabi must be given to all other three provinces. Although, they have right to own all the wealth, but I am sure they are not selfish.

In the 60 years of history of our country, all schools, universities, motorways, hospitals and every thing is constructed in only one provinces at the cost of other provinces from their wealth!

If we still continue to deny them their rights and find different excuses to suppress their voices, this brotherhood which is already tarnished once will further disintegrate.

@fahim

I dont think you read any thing I wrote.

I never said that the smaller provinces should not be given the same bread that Punjabies eat. to the contorary, I said that the least minumum the smaller provinces should have is the same standard of living if not BETTER.

I even advocated greater spending on impoverished areas of Smaller provinces. I merely pointed out that this matter is not as simple as some of you ‘Pakistani’ allergic people put it

I never said forget your origen, I just said that we should see our first and foremost identity as Muslims, This does not mean that we are not Pakistani, punjabi, sindhi, baloachi and pashtoon any more.

If I can be happy at being a simple Pakistani then why can’t you?

The rest of the world knows us as Pakistanis not Sindhis and Balochis and so on. when you go out of Pakistan and use a passport, you are identified as a Pakistani. When the Westerners insult us they call us ‘Pakis’ not Sindhi, Baloachi, Pujabi.

More importantly when the angels will come to your grave they will ask:
who is your Rabb?
what is your deen
what did you use to say about this person(Prophet STAWS)

They will not ask about your origen!!

You said that we are either known by our origen or by our religion. and that the word PAKISTANI is ARTIFICIAL.

If the word Pakistani is artificial then does that mean that your name is artificail too just because it was given to you by some body. Just like you were born and named and you have a claim to your name, Pakistan was also born and given a name by the real creators of Pakistan. None of the masses at that time objected to this name.

You calling ‘Pakistan’ artificial proves my point about forces that have anti Pakistan agenda. I also never implied that we should forget our mother tongues but we should also never forget that we come from one mother and father, ADAM and Hawwa Ra and we have one faith, one Quran, one Phrophet

I dont remember Allama Iqbals verse properly but it was some thing like this;

Khuda bhi aik pai’ yambar bhi aik Quraan bhi aik
Kiya bari baat hoti jo hote Musalman bhi aik

When I said to forget Sindi, baloch identities etc. It was not so that we do not identify with our origen, it was so that priority is given to the nationality that unites us. Just like Iqbals philosophy

If you are a Muslim then know that the prophet STAWS said that only I have the right of pride over my tribe of Banu Haashim. Other than me no one is to show proudness in this way and He prohibited his companions from this. But I doubt this will mean any thing to you.

Islamic teachings have not prohibited for aperson to identify with tribes but through its philosophy of brotherhood has tried to tie all Muslims in an inpenetrable bond of love through provinding us common points of unity. Islam never prohibited slavery but the measures of care that it introduced eliminated it anyway. just like that if a person has a strong Imaan he will feel the love for a nother Muslim no matter what his ethnicity. But if one IGNORES this relationship of brotherhood and INSISTS on identifying other Muslims as pujabis, sindhis, iraqis etc then his Iman is week as his preference of association is origen over Islam.

You your self have said that people identify them selves with religion or origen. Then why not Identify your self as a Muslim?

If you do Identify your self as Muslim then why seclude others by labeling them as Punjanis, sindhis etc and not show any compasion of brotherhood?

You said that people basically recognise them selves on the basis of religion or thier tribe. This is your oppinion. When Muhammad Ali Jinah presented the argument of a seperate nation he mentioned religion and islamic cultures as the main thing because origen was not enough as the Punjabies were split in Sikh Hindus and Muslims. Where as the Hindu Congress used the argument of origen.

Also you fail to see the connection as to why it is that people identify them selves with origen and religion. It is the common attributes. Pashtoon are pashtoon because they speak a language that is common. So any identity that devides the Muslims is inferior to one that unites. As Muslims we have Islam, Quran, The Prophet STAWS in common. This makes us a greater nation. This gives us greater powers and it is thus the Kuffar are scared of Muslim unity and have spent centuries creating the devisions that they have.

So when I said we should Identify our selves as Pakistanis then that was not excluding the ethnicity of the provinces as every sindhi, punjabi,pashtoon, and baloach is also Pakistani. But every Pakistani is not Baloach or Pashtoon etc I like the Pakistany identity because it brings people together rather than to devide them. I also like Pakistani identity because it does not exclude Islam.

By saying that the word ‘pakistani’ is artificial, you have informed all the members of this forum as to what you contain in you heart.

You also said that there are no universities, schools and hospitals etc in provinces other than one. Agin this is not true. I could agree that there are less of these institution in other parts of Pakistan but to say that some provinces have not had any deveolpment is not true under any circumstances.

You mentioned the thing about same bread for all provinces. The smaller provinces are not the only provinces that suffer from poverty. Pujab too has its fair share of poverty. Have you never read and heard about the suicides committed by impoverished familes in Punjab or is it that they are all from the smaller provinces?

No where in my comments have I said that any pakistani should be denied his rights. read again and read carefully

In the end I do not believe that the resources of ANY province including PUNJAB belong to the home province. They belong to the peolple of PAKISTAN and they should be distributed in a fair manner agreed by ALL parties across the entire Pakistan especialy the local population. I also believe that no Pakistani should be treated unfairly in any manner. Any body who thinks otherwise is forwarding the agenda of enemies of Pakistan willingly or unwillingly!!

This time read carefully and post a valide argument inseatd of subjective oppinion such as ” It is unnatural and silly argument to advocate people to forget their origin .”

And by the way can define what ‘nature’ is because all what I know is that every thing to know is in the Quran and Sunnah. Islam is the deen of nature.

Pakistani provinces, in their present form, are a creation of Yahya Khan. To say that these represent some sort of a single ethnic unit is a lie. Therefore, by quoting less developed areas of any areas of any province and juxtaposing that this manifests a bias against a whole province is absurd.

For example, hyderabad and sukkur districts are much more developed than say Attock, or Bhakkar or Pind dadan Khan even though the later are in punjab. Does this mean that there is some inherent bias against punjab?

What was the condition of current Pakistani provinces at the time of creation of Pakistan? Punjab was the most developed and wealthiest province. Was it because the British were biased against smaller provinces and were using their resources to enrich punjab? Or it was simply due to the fact that punjab had a much more favourable blend of land, water, weather and manpower that helped it develop more.

The gap between punjab and other provinces has shrunk appreciably during the last sixty years, still we hear all that drivel about punjab’s usurping of resources of smaller provinces. In all the federal budgets since Pakistan came into being, there has been a net transfer of resources from punjab to smaller provinces, still the propaganda to the contrary continues without any shred of evidence.

@Adonis

how many times have the people of punjab been subjected to a military operation???

the issue is the apparent lack of interest expressed by the federal government in the past to develop the infrastructure of the ’smaller’ provinces as a whole as opposed to the punjab. no one is denying that punjab was ‘favourably endowed’ to begin with.

secondly your history is a bit off. the provinces existed pretty much within their modern borders well before the one unit system was implemented which wasnt till 1955 anway. yahya merely reverted the system back to original pre 1955 borders.

@m5433d

there were punjabis, sindhis, pathans and balochis centuries before islam and there will be punjabis sindhis pathans and balochis centuries after. don’t be naive tribal and ethnic affiliations will always supercede ‘religious’ ones.

@m5433d

I do read your post.

I could not understand why you are implying that I don’t want myself to be known as a Muslim. (The fact for which I am proud).

I am against the people who advocate people to forget their ethnicity and just label them selves merely Pakistani.

I believe we should promote that All sindhis, punjabis, baloch and pathans are Pakistani. It would be better if we appreciate those who call themselves sindhi pakistani, punjabi pakistani, balochi pakistani or pathan pakistani. This I believe is more natural and would strengthen our country as all inhabitants will feel that they are recognized and respected.

The ever ready to burst habbit of ours calling people Kafirs or ghaddar who hold different point of view must be end immediately otherwise it will damage our society.

In the end I DO BELIEVE that the resources of ANY province including PUNJAB belong to the home province. They belong to the peolple of PAKISTAN but first RIGHT is of THAT PROVINCE and they should be distributed in a fair manner agreed by ALL parties across the entire Pakistan especialy the local population with PREFERENCE to local population. I also believe that no Pakistani should be treated unfairly in any manner. Any body who thinks otherwise is forwarding the agenda of enemies of Pakistan willingly or unwillingly!!

you said that tribes and regions existed before Islam.

They did no!!.

Adam and Hawah brought Islam to earth. There were no tribes and no regions at that time. Every phrophet thereon preached Islam and all those who became the followersof that particular prophet were reffered to as one unit in the Quran(Ummah). On the day of judjment All Ummahs will be presented on by one as a single nation.

The point is I use and promote a common attribut of Islam and Pakistaniyyat. You on the other hand seek to devide and spread hate.

here are some examples of your language;

“Jab punjab ka pait bhar jaye ga to shayad wo balochon, pathan aur sindhyun ki sun len. Humaray mulk nay bangladesh paida ker liya magar ab bhee Punjab ka pait nahin bhara”

“It is unnatural and silly argument to advocate people to forget their origin and just make believe to prefer unnatural and artificial label of being called Pakistanis.”

Above comments are not costructive criticism. The are racist and promote secterianism. You have not refuted any of my arguments with a credible argument.

If you are a Muslim, and a proud one, then refute my arguments with theoligical doctrine.

I rest my case.

can some Sindhi, Baloachi or Pashtoon please verify that they are noy all thinking like this Fahim23.

@optimist
Dear friend, how is Punjab to be blamed for the following?Punjabies are a victim too in this process. The people who have deprived the provinces are corrupt voulchers that have no ties to any ethnicity or region as they come from many.

I am just saying that we could easily treat Balochis better because their population is 4.5 million.

Balochi Nawabs also get the blame because they are big feudals who never let the money roll over to their ’slaves’. I read in an Interview where Bugti said (in 1989 Jang)

‘We should be given money and should be allowed how we deem fit’. When he was asked why he didn’t allow schools in his area, he said:

‘Our people don’t want schools, roads etc. We just want to rule ourselves’.

It is true that the money that went to Balochistan never reached the masses. Rest of the money was pocketed by top generals.

@m5433d

You don’t need to hate me, accuse me of being racist and inciting Sectarianism (I didn’t know I prompted Sunni shia issue in any of my post) just because I hold different point of view then yours.

Provincial autonomy which is part of our countrys constitutions guarantees that the resources will be owned by the respective provinces. It is normal practice of democratic system that only Foreign affairs and Telecommunication are the federal departments rest are to be governed by federating units or provinces.

In my view the pakistaniyat can only be promoted if we acknowledge and respect all provinces.

I am myself Sindhi, and I have presented my views.

I don’t understand why you are bringing religion or theology here?

Islam says which means something like that “We have divided people in different tribes, colors and languages so that they may recognize each other”

One don’t become kafir when he call himself punjabi, sindhi, baloch or pathan.

Every person is entitled to hold the wealth, I am not any mufti or scholar but I believe the same applies to regions. If any region is fertile, then the benefits of that region must go to that region. If any region has gas or oil, then the first right is of that region.

When Brits were ruling sub-continent that was one of the issue we have fought war of independance with them because they were looting the wealth of our lands and spending on their own. The Bengalis were also crying for their due share but were blatantly denied by few handfuls sitting in Military and Civilian Beaurocracy (dominated by the people of one province).

I want to make myself clear here that, the poor of any part of world is same, be it punjabi, sindhi, pathan or baloch. He is being suppressed! When smaller provinces say Punjab is dominating other provinces they mean the elite ruling class who is continuously growing and growing and trying to suck the last drop of wealth. As the people of Balochistan and Sindh are more wealthier in natural resources, their blood is being sucked most. Similarly as the hari or kammar’s blood is being sucked by chaudhris in punjab.

As far your reference to Nawab akber Bugtis if you know little about Balochistan then you will agree with me that, there are 5 main saradars in Balochistan and they hold only 17% of the land. They are:

1- Nawab Akber Bugti (Deceased)
2- Nawab Khair Bukhsh Mari
3- Sardar Attaullah Mengal
4- Sherbaz Khan Mazari, and
5- Nawab of Kalabagh

There is no sardar in the Makran and turbut belt and the areas of Balochistan which border with Iran, there is no sardar in the pakhtoon belt of Balochistan, the areas which border with sindh like Jafarabad and sadiqabad they too have like waderas they are not sardars. Then why the government of Pakistan has neglected the remianing 83% land of Balochistan. Have you been to Quetta? Does it look like a capital of province who is wealthiest in natural resources?

Some people prefer the respect over prosperity. You may call them fools but the wealth or so called development projects if they get as Khairat or without sovereignity, they don’t like it.

being sindhi I have made my voice heard in this forum, but I am sure you will find the calls of provincial autonomy from every corner of Balochistan and NWFP.

Now you probably are thinking to accuse me as “Ghaddars”!

Everyone agrees that their should be more autonomy for provinces of Pakistan. This might be a news for our Sindhi brothers but majority of Punjabis support this too. I won’t name leaders because this might divert the real discussion.

73’s constitution support more provincial autonomy.
NS supports more provincial autonomy.
AZ supports provincial autonomy.
Bhutto supported provincial autonomy.
IK supports provincial autonomy

Problem is not Punjab or any other province. Problem is establishment (Generals etc) who deprive people of Punajab and others and try to impose their own protected interests. Majority of this establishment happens to be from Punjab because of population size. If you have more people, it is easy to get more corrupt ones too.

Bangladesh does not have Punjabi army anymore. They have a cruel army and dictators.

Lets unite and break the bone of corrupt generals. Even ordinary soldier is a victim in this dirty game. Lets support judiciary to bring the best out. (This doesn’t mean that we should encourage Bhatta Khore low life criminals to rule us).

@Optimist

I believe in people, largely they will support what is right if guided properly.

And I agree with that problem is the Establishment.

The reason why unfortunately Punjabis has to take the blame is that the Establishment of our country (primarily Military) is dominated by Punjabis.

I am very hopeful, people from all parts have now stood up against dictators and InshALLAH this will go further until the domination of few handfuls is over and the autonomy is given to all provinces on equal basis.

@ Fahim23

I have many Sindhi friends and some of them are even offspring of top leadership of Jai Sindh Movement.

Even they agree that now the voice for their rights is coming more from Punjabi intellectuals (columnsts/writers/leaders) than their own people.

As far Punjabi army, I have had many discussions on that topic and that army is simply not Punjabi. They are from only four Districts (out of 30) of Punjab that used to provide 50% Army of British Raj. No industries were encouraged in those areas to make sure that the Young are forced to join army. Other 50% came from the Sikh and Gurkhas.

When we get things right in establishment and generals are tamed, we will devise a just plan for army recruitment as well. Problem lies with establishment that soured our dream of freedom and we are still stuck with Gora’s outdated imperial system where POWERFUL can exploit the others.

@ gv

Actually it was Yahya Khan who created the provinces in their present shape. Before one unit, there were several princely states in the present day baluchistan and NWFP and the provincial areas were much smaller.
——————————

That aside, I do not see an end to any sense of deprivation if more powers are delegated to the present day provinces. These provinces are so huge that many neglected areas will still remian. It will be much better to bring more autonomy to district level so that local resources can be utilized locally. The present district government system is a good beginning. It can be refined and given more powers. If that happens then we will not need any provinces and people will be able to get resolution of most of their problems locally.

An example of the present unfair and absurd system of sharing of provincial resources is that the royalty of gas from the Baloch area of Dera Bugti is shared by Pashtoons from Chaman living a thousand kilometers away but is not shared by Balochs living in DG Khan district just 50 kilometers away.

Similarly, the royalty of electricity generated from tarbela dam is divided between areas as diverse and far away as chitral and bannu. But people of hazara and swabi who suffered the most for construction of tarbela dam get only a meagre share.

How fair is that? Shouldnt the natural resources of a particular area benefit the local inhabitants of that particular area instead of being shared with others from far away areas just because they happen to live within the same boundaries of an arbitrarily drawn lines of a province on the map?

@adonis,

Agree with your argument by devolving more power to the district level and agree with you that the current ’sharing’ of resources is absurd which is the gist of this thread I suppose and is precisely what has incurred the ire of the ‘minority’ provinces.

However your claim re: yahya and his ‘arbitrary’ provinces is incorrect, see below:

“Since the number of princely states that acceded to Pakistan after partition was few compared with the Indian case and since the political map was simpler to begin with, with a rela- tively high degree of correspondence of provincial areas with linguistic regions, the task of redrawing the map faced by the nation’s leaders was not overly difficult. In fact, the only im- portant events of the period before 1955 were the establish- ment of the Federal Capital Area of Karachi in 1948 and the creation in 1952, by merger, of the Baluchistan States Union. In 1955, however, all of the western wing of the country save for the Centrally Administered Tribal Areas and the Federal Capital Area were merged into a single province, “West Paki- stan,” on a par with “East Pakistan” (which name replaced “East Bengal” in 1955). The basis for this move was to assuage the fears expressed by the Bengalis during the protracted and, till then, fruitless attempts to draft a national constitution that, ranged against the four provinces of the West, the interests of East Pakistan would not be adequately safeguarded, even though it had a clear majority of the country’s population. A single unit in the West, however, was never popular with the non–Punjabi-speaking populations of that area, since within West Pakistan Punjabis were, in turn, a clear majority. Conse- quently the old provinces, but not the former princely states, were restored in March 1970.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/REFERENCE/schwartzberg/pager.html?object=263&view=text

cannot find any links to pre1955 maps but if i do will post them here

@ the religous guy with the numeric name

fahim23 didnt say that the tribes came islam before i did. so read the posts carefully before you decide to condemn all of us poor heathens to an eternity of brimstone and fire.

@fahim 23

my friend you are spot on with your analysis ignore the religiously inclined they will continue to live in their little dream worlds lets stick to our real ones.

@adonis

heres another link which is pretty self explanatory. see the new provinces section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_regions_of_Pakistan

@gv @fahim

My appologies for confusing that comment. It was late. I had been up all night.

Fahim says he is a proud Muslim so he has My respect for that. My only case with Fahim is that atticking the Punjabies will only exhaserbate the problem. I agree with optimist that all parties such as PMLN. PPPP, ANP
are now seriouse about sorting out the problems of provincial autonomy and the rights of the deprived.

@fahim

I do not hate you,to the contorary I have love for all Muslims in my heart including all Pakistanies. My primary education is from Pakistan and I remeber a topic in my urdu book which had the title “Pakistani Bachay”. That was one of those topics that found a place deep in my heart. The morral of that lesson was that Pahtoon, Sindhi, Baloachand Punjabi are brothers. The difference is, our Master emphasized that lesson instead of mocking it. Which is, Im sure what happens in some parts of Pakistan. With a bit of constructive campaining, the average Punjabi can easily be brought on board, if he is already not on borad, that is.

I just wish that you were a little more forgiving, and my refference was to provincial secterianism no snni shia.

I think that optimist has a much balanced approch. By spewing fire at Punjabies you are only destroying the growing sympathy in Punjab. I agree with optimist that the army can not be lable as Punjabi as they are an evenly mixed bunch. I also agree with optimist that the average Punjabi is not to blame for the provincial inequalities.

@gv

Rasulullah STAWS use to go to the Maylaa of Akkaz to preach to the Kafir. Abu Jahl use to walk infront of the Prophet STAWS spraying dust towards His blessed face and would ’say people dont listen to this man he is a majnoon’.
Rasulullah STAWS is the greates being after Allah. If He STAWS endured such hardships and cruelness then I can ignore your comment too. But a though for you is that, in whos fot prints are you stepping when you make the kind of comments that you did about my affection to Islam and whos footsteps am I following when I speak of Islam?

I wish that Allah keeps me lost in HIS thought and the though of His messenger and you may choose for your self whar ever you wish because Allah says in different parts of the Quran that those who choose the wrong path willingly then Allah lets them be. They loose them selves deeper and deeper in dunya or kufar untill it is too late.
I know that the likes of Qazi and Diesel have in the last 8 years tarnished the immage of piety but ‘Ulamae Sue’ have always exhisted. Thier leader is shaytaan. But Allahs Quran and the sunnah of Rasulullah STAWS is still here with us and so are the examples of true piety.

I am religous, and I hope Allah makes me sincere in my ways, and I hope that Allah takes me through this life with Iman and His love and love of Rasulullah. My greatest desire is that the Muslims of the day especially Pakistanies, too find the true love of Allah and His messenger. Becuase, with out this there is no Imaan.

@ gv

Thasnks for the links. But I am afraid that these links again prove my point that the Pakistani provinces in their present form are a creation of Yahya Khan.

As it is mentioned in the wikipedia link, before one unit came into being in 1955, the Baluchistan states union (all baluch areas) was separate from the province of Baluchistan (Chief Commissioner’s province, mostly pashtun areas). Similarly, Chitral and Dir were not part of NWFP. Bahawalpur was not a part of Punjab and Karachi was federal territory, not a part of Sindh.

All these provinces and territories were amalgamated together in one unit in 1955. In 1955, Yahya Khan disbanded One Unit and created the four provinces as we see them today.

@m5433d

As I mentioned in one of my previous post, when I use the word Punjab it means few handful beaurocrats and generals. I apologize if it is taken wrongly.

Unfortunately, the word Punjab in my province at least has become symbol of Establishment because very few generals and beaurocrats who has ruined all of us mostly are from one part of country and they have become responsible to tarnish the image of their community. But let me stress here no sindhi considers any common punjabi as establishment or his enemy. And I am sure it goes similarly with the rest of provinces.

It is like, as most muslims blame America for all ills in the world. However, the ordinary american is as victim of their governments as the rest of world.

There are genuine grieviences of all smaller provinces like the grieviences of poor of Punjab. First thing we need to do is to recognize and appreciate them, only then we will become one force that will end every oppresser and usurper.

@Adonis

“Karachi was federal territory, not a part of Sindh”…..what??

@Fahim23
You maybe right that most generals are from Punjab. Nothing strange about that when you see at the population istribution. Nearly 60
% of Pakistans population lives in the fertile land of punjab.

/Saqib

@ Fahim23

Islamabad is the present capital of Pakistan and is a federal territory, not part of any province. Similarly, before islamabad, Karachi was the capital of Pakistan and was a federal territory, not part of any province.

Mush is Muhajir so he could be tied with Biharis Karrachists. His 8 years have been Pakistans worst 8 years yet. I doubt any body disagrees to that. If I started to hate all the Biharis and all the urduspeaking Karachists that would not be right. Bhutto was a Sindhi, what exactly did PPPP do for the provinces? Clearly nothing that is why they are appologising.

The reality Is far more complex. The British left thier agents in the form of some wadayray, fudel lords and genrals from day one. ever since the deathe of Liaqat Ali Khan Pakistan’s governments have had thier agenda set by forighn powers. Political Parties have not had a fair chance. Ayyub and Yahayah were both Pashtoon and Zia was preocupied with Russia. Given the so far turbulent history of Pakistan,

To say things like Punjabies are responsible for this and that, are exactly the things that threaten the existense of Pakistan. Bangladesh left Pakistan claiming that Pakistan was taking thier revenues but not giving any return the very same claim that SOME people from smaller provinces are making today. But some 36 years on I see no Sky scrapers and international bussines hubs their. Nor has the life of average bengali has improved much. Our strength is in our unity!!!!

@Adonis

I know Karachi was the capital of Pakistan initially but to say it was not part of Sindh is not Right! Uptil Only for limited period of time, Karachi was made capital of Pakistan, before that it was capital of Sindh.

I think the present form of Pakistan’s provinces is the creation of British Raj, not Yahya Khan. Sindh in its present form was separated from Bombay in 1937. The Punjab was split in two pieces on partition. Earlier the upper areas of NWFP (Swat, Chitral) etc were part of Kashmir,

In the 14 points of Quaid-e-Azam, these provinces are mentioned almost in their present form.

Fahim,

The provinces were there in the name before but their present boundaries were not the same as they are now.

Please read the above posts and the links given by gv and it would be clear.

Of course karacahi was a city of sindh, but when it became federal capital of Pakistan, administratively it seized being a part of Sindh province and was administered by the federal government. This is common all over the world. For example, teh american capital Washington DC is not a part of any US state but is administered by the US governmnet.

@adonis,

sorry i misinterepreted what you were trying to say.. agree with your comment above to fahim which is what i suppose i was trying to say which is the provinces were there in name but with slightly diff. boundaries.

my emphasis on ’slightly different’ because while and chitral and dir were included in the NWFP for political reasons, kalat, las bela etc were always part of the baluch land from both an ethno lingual and geographic point of view.

@m5433d

I am not religious as you probably figured out but that does not make any less pakistani. Most pakistanis who are raised and live in pakistan learn to leave religion in the homes where it belongs and do not bring it into politics.

my point being everybody is entitiled to their religion and religious beliefs just as long as they don’t involve it in the day to day running of my country. So in short leave religion out of politics.

@ gv

You are right about baluch princely states like kalat etc. always being part of Baluch heartland that extends to Sistan-Baluchistan province of Iran.

But looking at the issue from another angle, about half of present day Baluchistan is what was originallly called the Chief Commissioners’ Baluchistan that is not Baluch area predominantly pashtun area and before brits was consdiered part of Qandahar which remained a mughal province for some time.

So all Pakistani provinces in general and Baluchistan in particular are not single ethnic entities and lack of development in one province cannot be construed as bias against a particular ethnic community. I just wanted to emphasize this because many people seem to think that somehow each Pakistani province is an ethnic entity and Pakistan is a federation of four ethnic entities.

In fact Pakistan is a federation of administrative provinces and there are several ethnic entities within each of these provinces.

@adonis,

Once again have to agree with you. Had this discussion with Taban Khamosh as well. Which is where do you draw the line at demarcating or devolving political power down at the grass root llevel.. i.e. what happens when sub ethnicitiies or minority groups request further ’self rule’. I.e. where does it stop. It almost vindicates the Congress party’s position pre-1946 vis a vis pakistan. I suppose further autonomy at the district level should create a larger amount of satisfaction but will it also create a further fragmentation of the ‘national consciousness’. anyway i suppose this is a pretty circular discussion. appreciate your insight

@adonis, @gv et al. : Interesting discussion! I found this link to some really old british and french maps. This gives credence to the theory that the current provinces are rather more artificial than previously thought.

I didn’t realize “Afghanista” used to be just on the other side of Koh-e-Suleiman slightly west of D G KHan. I stand schooled!

http://www.davidrumsey.com/detail?id=1-1-22039-700071&name=Asie Occidentale.

NOTE: the interface is klunky, and requires you to turn off your popup blocker (at least for that site - ahead of time) but it is well worth the hassle (I’ve been spoiled by google maps)

thanks for an informative exchange guys it was a good read! (sans the pseudo-religious parts of course which I skipped without hesitation; no offense intended of course)

gaah! the link to the map above. My comment is waiting moderation.

@ gv

religion cant be left at home because the religiouse person has to go out and religion goes out with him as it cant be detached.. those who are not religious out side are not religiose inside.

I dont need to give you reffernce from Islamic text that evry aspect of a Muslims life is governed by Islam. Just a simple logic for you though. If Islam was for the home only then things Allah prohibited would be prohibited in the home only. Government affairs also have set guidelines in Islam. What you claim is the claim of sechularits. The days of sehularism are now numbered in Pakistan because soon the American dictator is going to be hanged and the next government be it joint will still not able to carry on with the maraton race and modern enlightenment philosophy.

The majority of Pakistanies are reliogouse people and Pakistan is an Islamic Jamhuriayya. Musharraf was your kind a guy. Watch him hang soon. All the filth that he has spread was under direct orders of Bush but thats all about to change. And in ten years with the revised sylabus the next generation will find its way towards Islam again.

Finally, it says in the constitution of Pakistan that there will be no law in the country that may conflict witht Quran and Sunnah. Even musharraf did not have the heart to tamper with that because he knew that would most cirtainly be his last day on that chair. So your claim is even against the constitution of Pakistan and there are more of us who are willing to defend that constitution with our lives than you Although there may not be a lot of us commenting on this forum..

@TK

what difference does it make what the maps WERE before 14 08 1947 apart from if its got any thing to do with Kashmir issue?

@TK

dude the map link is briliant. I’ve been trying to find something like this for ages. I had a general idea of the Afghan borders prior to the sikh kingdom borders but had no idea of the exact borders also apparently (according to a wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_(region)) Iran conquered their part as recently as the 1870’s. What i would like to know is whether baluchistan was a monolithic entity ruled by one state/person before the brit era.

@m5433d

You win i lose

your’e a much better human being then i am and may you live a long life.

@gv: glad you like it! found it by a total fluke! I hate the interface, but the old maps are totally cool.. It is interesting to note that the “think tank” version floated not too long ago seems to harken back to the old days..

I have a feeling it has been sort of quasi together because of natural barriers but internally it was losely based principalities that kept changing hands. Some Baluch brothers can perhaps shed some light on this ???