Mushtaq Minhas and Nusrat Javed in fresh episode of Bolta Pakistan.URL derived from title. Original in blip/apr08/boltapakistan_1_apr_08.flv (Video_Normalized)
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Dr Ata is a respected Pakistani educationists. I think he should be given more funds. He has done what he could with meagre resources (in 2006 budget speech Kh Asif said: 18 billion rupees education & 350 billion on defence). Pakistani eduation budget must increase otherwise even people like him cannot do much!
It will good for dr ata to resign honourably. People will remember his good work.
Let the new government bring a new person.
A person oF dr rehman calibre does not necessarily need minister status.
I know many in friends and family who are sponsered by HEC for Phd.
We have success stories in higher eductaion.
Aga khan university.
LUMS.
FAST.
GIK
We need to improve our basic education as well. Primary school teacher need respect and honourable salary.
Dr ATA and his team (Including Dr. Shoail Naqi) has done a wonderful job for this country, He really able to make an institution and perhaps the only one in last 8 years which has promoted by and large merit system in higher education. My request to Minister is please dont politicize this institution which started giving the fruits and will impact heavily in future.
About lifting the ban on the students unions i personally disagree, because in my view it will badly hurt the environment developing in the public sector universities. The most of the students in public sector universities belongs to poor or middle class and to involve them in bad politics (which our past record suggest) is not a good sign for future. Even now we are not competitive in the reputed international universities. In my view the children of elite class studies either in abroad or in private universities so the poor or lower middle class children will suffer and distracted from the real purpose the education.
My suggestion is at least union should remain still banned in UETs and other institutions of technical education.
You are asking to ban some thing which we have not seen in action. Student politics have given great political personalities. You have to open up your mind.
Politics is not dirty or bad thing. These yurkails has made it so.
and give a feedback to them about Dr ata and his work. because we need basic education but also a good higher education and Dr shab is doing a good work
You are asking to ban some thing which we have not seen in action. Student politics have given great political personalities. You have to open up your mind.
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Dear brother its better we havnt tested this. I graduated from that university where everybody wants to in Pakistan and fortunately or unfortunately governed by the army and then taught in public sector university for some time. I also remember they days in UETs when people use to graduate in 6-10 years. I can bet you i know low of people from public universities specially in engineering, suffering badly in studies or research in abroad due to poor concepts, inadequate knowledge. I know how the notes and rata culture is common and if someone tries to bring in change some of the student mafia really plays. I observed the input to the universities is very nice, dedicated, and cultured childern but unfortunately the most of the output is in converse. The parents of these children really invest their life saving and what they get is really a less than a mechanic caliber engineer.
Student Unions should be allowed but their role should be limited. No political parties should be allowed to have student wings. The Union elections should be on individual basis and the Unions shoudl not have anything to do with academic issues liek curriculum and exams/exam dates etc. Uniosn should only be concerned with providing facilities for students and organizing extra-curricular activities like book fairs etc.
You people are confusing student unions with student political wings. There is a difference.
Second, about HEC. I agree that Dr. Atta is a good man and his intentions are noble. But his methodology is wrong. I totally agree with that caller because of my personal experience. I have two Pakistani friends here with me doing graduate studies on HEC scholarship and they’ve told me that if they get a job here, they wont go back. That’s how young kids who are not interested in teaching and just get out of the country for a better future think. And I agree with them since why would a 25 year-old guy, who is not married and has no family in Pakistan other than parents and siblings who can live away from him, would want to go back? They usually get a job here after their degree, and usually marry someone from here to get a quick green card to settle here. Otherwise, if they get the green card themselves, they marry a girl from Pakistan and bring her over here as well. His parents and siblings are okay as long as he sends them remittances. That’s how our Pakistani families are whose children live abroad. Why would they want to go back and work as a professor for some university for a pay that is much less than what they can get here working for a private corporation?
So Dr. Atta’s methodology is wrong. With so much public money pouring into higher education, there needs to be better planning so that the country benefits from the money being spent on these students. Pakistanis dont pay humongous taxes so some kid can study abroad with that money and settle there comfortably for the rest of his life!
You people are confusing student unions with student political wings. There is a difference.
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Certainly i am referring to the political wings to student unions. With non-political unions no body have any problem. But our experience says in our universities only political unions exists and rest dies. Lets be more pragmatic…
But his methodology is wrong…………
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I partially disagree with the caller, the youngness of a person dont disqualify him to be a good lecturer or teacher, My experience tells me that in Govt universities most of the old lecturers, APs or Professors are simply not wiling to learn or study themselves. I know the teachers not willing to change the subjects which they have been teaching since ages. I know the professors with simple B.E, no publication, nothing and they got promoted to this post just because of experience. I am even not the scholar of HEC, but i personly think that this is the right approach to bring in the young blood in education sector, because our previous system is totally a failure, how many PTCLs , WAPDAs, HMCs we need to dump in the engineers, look at the pathetic condition of KESE etc.
They only need is that HEC should focus on strong guarantors or pay back methods to bind the guy to come back and serve.
Dr Atta? this is prime time to investigate this co called educationists and his team. Same person who did not allow Ahsan Iqbal to open university when every one opened university!
And some one mentioned sohail naqvi in HEC? just to remind he is son of (in)famous General naqvi – HEC and army regime worked very closely.
I dont know Sohail Naqvi is son of which General but i can tell you that his all the education from BS to PhD is from US, His education and career record is excellent and he has more than 10 patents and above 100 papers in reputed Journals and conferences of world.
Unfortunately I know Dr. Atta as an insider, I am aware of how he got (COMSATS Institute of Information Technology) CIIT approved as a university when even UCET Taxila did not grant CIIT the status of its campus , even Sir Syed University did not allow CIIT a similar status. CIIT was not only given university status as soon as General made Dr. Atta minister of science & technology , but was also given huge funds in Lahore , Abbottabad.
But this is not the only issue, as I said in previous comments , the people like Dr. Atta are ethically and professionally corrupt people. I know that many people in Pakistan hate politicians like Chaudaries and Asif Zardaris , who are financially corrupt and make huge financial corruption while in government, however I hate people like Dr. Atta as much as people hate financially corrupt politicians. Financial Corruption is simply a one time wound , a person can make billions of rupees while in government but as soon as he is gone , he can not do the same. Similarly usually sometimes you can get the money back from a corrupt person when he/she is not in government.
But an ethically and professionally corrupt person is like a cancer to the society , he/she plagues the whole department and the impact of his/her corruption is long lasting. Besides that since people believe that he is a “professional” and “his intentions are noble” , nobody actually realizes how much damage this guy has done with the nation. I know how HEC is being run , I also know how these “noble” and “professional” people fight over petty cars of “black honda accord” and “white mercedez”. How these people publish palagarized “research” papers in journals.
These people are parasites , I remember clearly how hecticly they started their efforts on 12th of October 1999 to get in touch with the new dictator , the group included (Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, Dr. Naseem Ashraf, Pervez Batt etc.). Goddamnit these are a plague to this nation.
To be honest I sincerely believe that such people should be made an example for the nation. Their “kartoot” should be told to government and democratic government should tell the nation that it is not the corrupt politicians who damage the nation , it is these people who damage the nation irreparably.
@Pejamistri
Completely agree about Atta, et al!!!
But nothing is gonna happen as far as “I sincerely believe that such people should be made an example for the nation”. They will all go scot-free and get to keep their loot. Maybe even get appointed to the UN
Shaz:
it is no surprise that most generals’ children got education from elite US institutes as package deal to support US. It is these circumstances which equipped these children what you call ‘record excellence, PhD, Patents and papers’. This circumstance theory is quite known in Philosophy and sociology
….
Even Bilal Musharraf has degrees from Illinoise UC and Stanford –
Anyways My point is what pejamistry mentioned.
to give just one example of this corruption linked with financial corruption is:
generally those close of dr. Atta and in particular those from CIIT and close to this regime made millions via virtual university. Now VU is also head by another MIT return – OK But video lectures was just a way to make money.
Do You know how CIIT lahore campus started and ‘vision’ of Dr. Zaidi? It is shame to tell how desperate he was to start that campus using web developers team of his institute….
It is amazing how these people fed these stories to the people , “100 papers in well reputed journals” and “10 patents” Dr. Atta has most papers published in the “well reputed journals” , he considers himself the best scientist ever produced by this nation , he is self proclaimed greates scientist of the world. He spends half of the year out of the country. He targets his prey in US , looks for the ethically corrupt people their , lures them with financial perks , I personally know several people who refused to be lured by him , the doctors from MIT and University of Berkley. Several people left Pakistan disappointed by this person alone. We must remember that any real professional can forgive financial corruption however it will be really hard for any professional to ignore ethical corruption in his/her profession.
Doctors and engineers loose their practicing licenses if found guilty. I wish same for educationists as well.
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another example of their financial corruption:
they place their children in good companies, then sign contracts of work with those companies and money comes via their children- paid high salary – all legal!
Are Dr. Atta and his cronies reading this thread? If so , Mr. Atta please leave this nation at least do one good thing in your life , I hope education has given you some self-respect, take care of that. You have made a lot of money now do one favor to this nation and pack up and go away in a respectable manner.
BTW there is another plague to this nation whose name is Naseem Ashraf , that guy I believe has no self respect he is the exact copy of his boss the mad dictator. I hope NJ and MM discuss his kartoots as well in their program.
I know this lecturer who is a caller! He himslef has been dismissed from his from Foundation University as he was also serving in Quaid-e-Azam University at the same time. I’ve seen him all the previous year in Pakistan and not sure from where he has got his Ph.D He also used two different names in this program. Earlier, on constitutional issue he called as Shabaz and in this program he has called as Shabir. His full name is Shabaz Shahbir. This means that this program also gives preference to certain set of callers who simply wanted to develop a mindset and raise issues. I think they are being paid to open pandora boxes with dubious callers!
I agree that Dr Ata shouldn’t have done dirty work. He has awarded many fake universities a charter.
For example, there is a fake American university called Preston. This university has not even a single class room in the USA. This one room university was made by a Pakistani called Shahid Malik.
There is a loophoe in Two US states where you can register an office as a ‘postsecondary’ institute and issue certificates based on distance learning. These two states are Wymong and California. These fake universities open campuses in third world countries and call their certificates ‘MBA’ etc. These fake degrees have no value (you can check British Government website).
Dr Ata awarded this Preston University Charter. A university that has one room in the USA becomes a proper US university in Pakistan!!!
As far as HEC is concerened then HEC has not only used its own funds but also gained huge amount of support from international donor countries. Moreover, HEC has sent students to the European countries where Ph.D. does not have any tuition fee. So, HEC has brought silent revolution in the univeristy system of Pakistan and I fully support these initiatives as the faculty member of a public sector university. Dr. Atta and Dr. Sohail Naqvi are the real blessings for our country and we should get maximum return from their exposure and intellectual capabilities.
Well I know very well how does he make money. Not only in the senate his high profile foreign tours were presented with all the accounts just recently.
I always say that until people like Ata in our society are not given the same treatment as the corrupt politicians are given by the media. Our society will remain hostage to these people , persons like him are not just related with the dictator , in fact these parasites are fed on the blood of poor people forever , he was there even in NS government before 1999. These people should be hated just like a common man will hate a corrupt politician.
@someone
BTW if you think I am talking about financial embezzlement as a politician does , then you are wrong. I am talking about professionally unethical conduct and corruption.
HEC Funds should be audited by an independent Auditor. There is another question that why the proposed university of Mr Ehsan Iqbal was refused charter despite of fulfilling all the criteria? I fully support the idea of C and D class university. It is better to send fewer students to top class universities rather than third rated universities. NTS test itself is amazing especially when it is called GRE general type. I guess HEC should be overhauled. Lastly, i guess these days HEC top elite including Mr Atta are trying their best to survive but it seems that GAME IS OVER
I was writing from my memory. So I might have mixed up a name.
Fake US universities often have big campuses outside US because they want to make a lot of money by fooling third world students that they are getting proper American degrees.
You endorsed my point by saying that HEC office islamabad is also the property of abdul basit (owner of Preston University).
NTS was the brain child of Junaid Zaidi, It is another unethical and sinister act on part of this team. BTW Junaid Zaidi is currently the rector (reporting directly to President ) of the CIIT.
If one compares business model of preston and CIIT, then there is no difference at all – same business strategy. but CIIT was Dr. Atta’s beloved child! with access to public funds and now big shots on payroll,, which are difficult to immitate by private business owners like abdul basit.
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In deed Dr. Atta’s policies has stigmatize non degree holders/ diplomans, polytechniques at one end, which are mandatory for manufacturing development. take example of korea. the so called system also does not meet needs of service industry and India is just one example that excel directly into services otherwise the normal transformation is manufacturing->Services…
few years back NCR was not able to find just 400 graduates!
And I dont think Pakistan will have google type companies in next 2 decade even who prefer programmers with PhD degrees.
“Quranization of courses at the M.Sc. Level. Higher Education Commission, Islamabad. Dr. Saadia Khawar Khan Chishti 5,581,000, three-Year. Researches by Muslims as well as by non-Muslims have confirmed that Al-Quran has the roots of disciplines both known as well as unknown to humanity. As such, it becomes obligatory for any Islamic state to weave the Quranic perspective into its curricula. Broadly speaking, the main focus of this project is Quranization of existing science courses at M.Sc.level by weaving the Quranic perspective into the syllabus without changing the contents of the course.”
The reasons for the failure of the HEC reforms are many. Money is one of them. There has been too much of it, too quickly. Foreign donor agencies and governments, fearful that an uneducated and unskilled Pakistan may become an epicenter of terrorism, have panicked and tripped over each other to offer aid for education. The higher education budget has skyrocketed to 11.7 billion rupees.
These fabulous sums pouring into higher education have created the all too familiar behaviour of the newly wealthy. HEC has paid for a massive publicity blitz, with huge newspaper advertisements and colored multi-page supplements, devoted to breathless self-promotion of HEC, its leadership and its projects.
The HEC boasts of over 350 scientific and university related projects, amounting to 25% of the total number of projects being executed by the Government of Pakistan in all fields. But looking at the projects on the HEC website (www.hec.gov.pk) produces disturbing proof of gross administrative incompetence, carelessness, wastage on an unprecedented scale, and a culture of sycophancy. Projects that bear no relation to meaningful improvements of science or education in the country are being approved in desperate haste.
Thanks for sharing the information about Dr. Att Sometimes I get the feeling that you are a professional journalist [Just the amount of information you seem to have]
I am currently doing my M.Sc. from UK. I believe that educational reforms are not possible without upgrading the qualitity of indigenous institutions. I agree that only serving teachers should be sent on HEC scholarship. The existing NTS is highly defective screening system. I dont doubt the intentions of Professor Ata ur Rehman. I respect him for his services. But I think, he could not marshall the available resources properly. In my view, Pakistan should develop its instituions and develop a tolerant culture so that we should market our instituions in Africa, East Asia and Sout East Asia. In this way not only we can earn foreign exchange but also increase the competitiveness of our educational system.
U said that existing NTs is highly defective system. i think u also know about US universities and some others speacially for scholorship grant must need GRE. and NTS is almost similar test like GRE. secondly i have engineering background, and i know majority of the existing teachers of Engineering University are not capable to pass GRE so they also lack in NTS. we need new blood at our university level and i think the policy of Dr ata is ok.
Gul:
Dr. Atta and his team had this plan which did not work out. CIIT had one such initiative. Since you are studying in UK now, you sould appreciate the connection between industry and academicd especailly in R&D. How long it takes to export education system – perhaps now US and Uk have just started towards china, singapore, and dubai though limited.
As mentioned in the program, King Advert has long lasting repo – now at risk – BUT you can’t do this with startups!
@ADMIN
I really appreciate your effort which you invested in making this forum. I have just one sugggestion about the comments section. Try to think of it as in a bit hierarchical structure rather than this linear one, and replies to any commenter should be directed to him via email as well.
@ADMIN
This suggestion might have been floated before. I think, for each video, there should be a special comments section in which the persons directly affiliated with the video replies to queries (If they are available, and efforts can be vested to pursue them to visit this forum which I believe is the biggest forum related to Pakistani politics and Pakistani Media) …
Ahsan Iqbal (born September 28, 1958 in Lahore) is the current Education Minister of Pakistan, with additional portfolio for Minorities.[1] He is also the information secretary of the center-right party PML-N. He was elected as an MNA from his constituency NA-117 (Narowal-III) in the February 2008 elections.[2] He is slated to become the Minister for Education in the coalition government of PPP, PML-N, ANP and JUI-F formed after 2008 elections.[3]
Ahsan Iqbal, son of Iqbal Ahmed, was born in Lahore in 1958. He was schooled in PAF Public School, Sargodha, GC College, Lahore, and UET Lahore, before moving to Wharton School of Business at University of Pennsylvania for postgraduate studies. He also took part in the Oxford University Program at the prestigious University of Oxford.
His political career started in 1980 when he joined the Islami Jamiat-e-Talaba, the student wing of Jamaat-e-Islami, at UET Lahore. It was in 1988 when he joined PML-N (it was called IJI then), and steadily rose be its information secretary during the regime of General Pervez Musharraf. He was elected for the first time as an MNA from his constituency NA-90 (Narowal) in the General Elections of 1993, and later from the same consituency in February 1997. He won his seat again in 2008, after losing in 2002, from his native district of Narowal.
His whole family is very decent. His mother Aapa Nisar Fatima was in female wing of JI. She was highly respected role model for women who followed religion. His brother was one year senior to me in GC Lahore. Last time I met him (in 1998), he was studying at London School of Economics. He (brother of Ahsan Iqbal) made a think tank organization in Pakistan and I was one of the proud members of that organization. When his brother visited Pakistan (while he was at LSE), he told me – for the first time – that he is brother of Ahsan Iqbal. He never mentioned his family when he was in GC Lahore.
Looking at Ahsan Iqbal and his family’s decency, I am sure he was a misfit in IJT. That is why he moved to PML N.
Its a pity that when we start looking at the down side of an issue, then we act as if there is not an iota of goodness in the whole act.
Dr. Atta may have some personal downfalls, but that does not nullify everything.
It was a shame when that caller said that the HEC students are studying in third rated Universities. I have personally known a few HEC scholars, and they were all studying in the state run national Universities, and the money spent on them is in no way going in the drain.
Its true that the US Universities are the only hype these days, but that certainly does not limits the quality of education the European Universities are imparting.
The quality control of all those state owned Universities is as strict regarding the scientific content of their work as in the US. Their work is reviewed by the same reviewers doing it for the US Universities. Their professors have earned high impact factors, and are too happy to have students from Pakistan.
Pakistani people are used to of working with minimal resources, and when these students find all the right scientific environment, they really excel there.
It was equally discouraging to see the readiness of Nusrat Javed to entertain the conspiracy theory of that caller; as if he is just looking for some controversy and then to argue in its favor! A person of his caliber should do investigative journalism rather than speculating one.
On the other hand, its true that students who are single, and were not working back in Pakistan will prefer to settle abroad after finishing their studies. That is a matter to discuss. But then, having lost millions and billions on failed taxi and tractors schemes, its painful to see how they are crying for spending a few millions on education. They have already gone pessimist that nobody will come back, and we will be ruined and and and!
If out of these 2000 (i dont know the exact number) students, even 70% come back, is it a bad deal?
and lets say they are not graduating from the best around institution, are they worse than the government Universities in Pakistan also?
I do not understand a very simple thing, If HEC is doing all good and everything is fine, why DR ATTA & co is afraid of an independent audit of the accounts and affairs? Why HEC & Co is so offensive when Dr Hoodhbhoy calls for tranparency. I think when such huge sums are involved the tranparency is very much expected or else we have the right to expect the biggest corruption in name of Higher Education in Pakistan.
Dear All
and Specially The Anchors of the program!!!!
Well it seems that you people are strucked to a point. THE PhDs!!!!! as called by the caller the 3rd Class PhDs!!!
I am sorry thats not the case. I my self is a HEC Scholor and was a teacher in Pkaistan in Top Ranked Engineering University. I disagree that HEC is sending people in 3rd class universities. Most people are doing PhDs from well known Institutions. Its always very hard to get admission in Harvard or MIT. HEC do support anyone who gets admission in such HIGH RANKED universities. The fact is that THE EDUCATION LEVEL OF OUR OWN UNIVERSITIES IS SO LOW THAT NOT EVERYONE IS CAPABLE OF GETTING ADMISSION IN THESE INSTITUTIONS. So isn’t it better that those students who cannot get admission in such high ranked universities, be sent to little low ranked universties, though the rank is not that LOW.
As far as the MONEY involed is concerned, I must tell you all that its not too much. The scholorships we get are equal to the minimum pay in that country that equals to 1200USD in Europe and 800USD in CHINA. So I think HEC is getting good output from low input.
As I told you before that I myself was in a University in Pakistan and I had a close contact with HEC. They are not only putting in money in PhDs but also in improving the infrastructure, labs, etc. And indeed they are doing it efficiently.
They have provided Broadband Internet facility which was not the case before. They have introduced teacher evaluation criterion. They managed to upgrade the educational levels.
You can by yourself can go to any university in Pakistan now and you can feel the change.
Please donot see the case from one side; its true that we need good primary education. But HEC means HIGHER EDUCATION COMMISION. It is responsible only of higher education not primary. Ministry of Education is responsible for that. If education minister (40 Supary wala) was incapable of uplifting of primary education , Dr. ATTA couldn’t do any thing and he should not be blaimed off. HE was and is BRILLIENT.
The old faculty members are afraid of loosing their positions to young and talented HEC scholars. The allegation that HEC sends scholars to substandard universities is totally absurd. I am witness of a number of bright young scientists doing there PhDs (and publishing more papers than the old lot did in their entire career).
Its time to acknowledge the great projects of HEC and Dr. Atta. He is a brilliant person and a good leader (look at the HEJ performance under his leadership, it has turned into a world class institute)
1- This HEC idea was originally given by Ahsan IQbal as part of Pakistan vision 2010 programme in NS govt. It was not the vision of Mush or Dr Atta.
2- Original plan was to focus on APPLIED SCIENCES focused to our main industries like textile but due to mismanagement and lack of vision and planning of Dr Atta , it did not happen.
Also there was no balance between the ratio of budgest for skool education to budget fro HEC Phds.
Another gem from the Hoodbhoy article @mbokhari posted (emphasis mine):
There are many other puzzlers on the same web page. A grant for Rs 5,355,000 has been awarded to the Allama Iqbal Open University (AIOU) for research in a specialized area of chemistry. According to the project summary, this work aims to correct the mistakes made in this area by a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry.
Such grand notions of challenging Nobel Prize winners are highly suspect in the world of science, but not impossible. What is worrying is how anyone believes this can be done at AIOU, which is a distance-learning university with no tradition of cutting edge chemistry research. The principal investigator listed for this project is not from AIOU and already holds several other full time jobs at other institutions. The HEC website lists him to be Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, chairman of the HEC.
@Someone: Dude can u explain why a goddamned ‘phsyicist’ would approve 3 million dollars for ‘research equipment’ (Van De. Graf generator) which became obsolete 50 years ago in the field of Physics research ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This is like proposing buying a steam engine to ‘research’ the latest aerospace concepts! (that may still make some sense) But this Van DeGraf sh!t really drives me up the wall.. I’m not a physicist, and even I know the world moved on from Van DeGraf generators half a century ago!
You don’t need to look at his accounts! His actions sound like that of a FREAKING FRAUD!
Read Pervaiz Hoodbhoy’s article, it takes the info directly from the HEC website.
Dr.Atta is a genius. He should be acknowledged for his efforts. We can have different opinions on HEC and its mode of operation. But Dr.Atta has a vision and his commitment can never be in doubt. Before HEC started this program, the people from lower class could never have thought of getting higher education in foreign countries specially in the West.
So instead of believing in anybody’s words with close eyes, we must consider the kind of change the HEC has brought under Dr.Atta.
I agree the isntitutions have nothing to do with HEC.
10 YEARS is long time, even if we agree dr Ata has done good work, it is time for for graceful exit
@Paki_2008: Why would this ‘genius’ approve the purchase of a Van De Graf generator for ‘cutting edge research’ in Physics (all the more poignant because this ‘genius’ of yours is supposed to be a physicist!)
Would you call a man who approved millions of dollars of poor Pakistani’s blood and sweat to purchase a steam locomotive to research the latest hybrid car technology????
He also approved 53 lakhs for his research (IN CHEMISTRY) to prove some Noble Laureate wrong (this from a ‘physicist’ who doesn’t know VDG generators became obsolete 50 years ago!)
This makes him sounds like a FRAUD to me…
Is it too much to ask of the apologists on this forum to keep the Nation’s interest first and foremost?
@mbokhari
Thank you very much for the great article, it sums it all , now I think people will agree with me that this guy (Dr. Atta) is professionally corrupt person , I have perhaps the most respectable evidence (Pervez Hoodbhoy) on my side. Honestly those who wants to give benefit of doubt to Dr. Ata should reconsider their opinion after reading this article, BTW I was just reading the list of projects that article mentioned , amazingly CIIT got 32 grants worth of 91 million rupees i.e. more than $1.5 millions out of 423 million, it makes up 20% of the total grants , and the universities like BZU , University of Peshawar and several others.
And here is another gem from the list of project:
Quantum Information Theory and Quantum Computation represent an emerging interdisciplinary research frontier, which has been seen in recent years a tremendous growth and has raised an ever-increasing interest within the scientific community. It has high potential in the rapidly growing field of information Technology. Because of the miniaturization of computer components and application of quantum laws to the existing information theory the future computations will be based on Quantum Computing. It has novel applications such as Teleportation and Cryptography, which has brought a revolution in Information Technology. The subject of Quantum Information as a field of information sciences is being taught in many universities. We would also like to start the research in this fast growing area by establishing a research group at COMSATS Institute of Information Technology, Islamabad. In the first step we would like to train the young researchers and scholars and enroll them in M.S. and Ph.D. We are hopeful to produce 2-3 graduate these having 2-3 research papers per thesis in standard international journals.
They need 1.3 million rupees to do this . I have never heard about this guy Dr. Kamal Uddin , he was not there when I was in Pakistan , but the project was awarded in 2004 and was for 3 years and should have been completed by now. I am really interested to find out did they write 2-3 research papers per thesis in field of Quantum computing. BTW this is my field too and I am doing PhD Not on HEC scholarship
@commoner: thanks for the correction. Still, his approval of a “pork barrel” project only highlights the fact that this organization which is supposed to emphasize research (a peer reviewed endeavor) has no peer review process of its own (or any transparency for the awards process) and they are incompetent to the point of wasting 3 million US dollars of money squeezed out of Pakistanis via taxes on fuel and atta on something that a layperson like me knows. And that is in just this ONE instance.
This was not oversight. This was connivance and conspiracy to defraud the poor taxpayers of Pakistan.
And we have poor people jumping into canals with their children because they can’t afford food for their kids. People selling their kidneys just so they can eat and maybe send their kids to primary school. This ‘bay hiSi’ of our nation really rubs me the wrong way.
When all is said and done, the corruption (even if ethical) amounts to peanuts when compared to the fiscal and cultural AIDS introduced by the jurnails. I don’t mind it that much. I have had a brush with the HEC and their NTS programs. Laughable, yes, but still they were sending people abroad for education. You can’t go much wrong with that even if the students were not very good or the universities sucked.
Even the Quranization blunder and the Van de Graaf thing is not a big deal financially. What bothers me MOST are the fake 9 universities. I think this is what is going to sink Dr Atta and the HEC. Come on. Its been more than 5 years since we started hearing about it. Like Hoodbhoy says, it was better to have ONE university sponsored by the EU than have 9 which won’t even have 9 Europeans teaching in them.
In one article Hoodbhoy wrote that LUMS being the topmost Pakistani University had started their School of Engineering and they had severe problems recruiting worldclass faculty EVEN if it was of Pakistani origin. Europeans? Fuhgeddaboudit !!
HEC European Universities scandal is going to be bigger than Cooperative Societies Scandal, Mehran Bank scandal and anything else that you can think of.
If they really wanted to start a good worldclass level university they should have taken a look at the King Abdullah Uni of Science and Tech. in Jeddah. The KAUST program has a budget of USD 200 billion and still has birth pangs.
Even our defense budget is $4.5 dollars!!! (for half million Faujis if not few thousand officers) And as for education budget for 17 crore people (duty is to educate whole nation), it is not even 200 million.
I was reading in Economist that third biggest university in the US has a budget of $17 billion a year. It means KAUST probably spends probably far more money than even Harvard and others.
Whenever I tell my friends that Pakistan is VERY poor they start arguing with me! When I mention that UK has spent $ 142 billion (£71) EXTRA on NHS in last couple of years and $42 billion (£21) EXTRA on just one firm RailTrack. They think I am not patriotic and I am insulting Pakistan.
I graduated from NUST last year. I am not sure about the claim that 50% of HEC funding goes to NUST, as lots of NUST-sponsored PhDs are sponsored from NUST’s own funds.
I would also like to mention that it is absolutely true that most of the PhDs sent abroad by HEC are studying in third-rate universities. There are only a couple of universities in the world where you can truly gain good education. But like someone already pointed out, it is very difficult to get admission in these universities. To claim that we have made great advances in education merely because we are sending more people abroad is absurd.
The quality of research performed by these so-called PhDs is also abysmal. Research contributions by Pakistanis in any field is negligible. Most of the papers are plagiarized and of extremely low-quality. And probably the most important point of all is that the attitudes of even those people who do go abroad are still the same. They do not know how to teach or promote a culture of education, and yet are heralded as great intellectuals and teachers by these very same universities. Lots of points raised by Dr Hoodbhoy are valid, and need to be scrutinized in detail.
KAUST plans to spend USD200 billion in the next 15-18 years. There yearly budget is USD 12.5 billion. You are right, it seems laughable when compared to our annual military budget. If you ignore the Blue Area in ISB or so-called “posh areas” (hate that word), Pakistan is not very far from poor African nations. Psychologically we like to compare ourselves with nations like Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Indonesia. All of them are middle income and much richer than us with substantially higher HDI indexes. We are closer to Ghana, Lesotho, Burma, Bhutan and Congo. Even Gabon, a sub-Saharan African country has better HDI than us.
The dirt poor peasantry of Pakistan is invisible to us but crime, drugs and terrorism is the revenge of the unwashed masses. Sain Akhtar Lahori was a disciple of Ustad Daman. I shudder when I read Sain Akhtar’s magnum opus, “Allah Mian Thallah Aa” (Page 6). This, here, is the PPP vote, loyal, long-suffering and oft forgiving.
But we have/will have missiles and other cr*p like Ghauri, Abdali, Ghaznavi, Babar, ( and Akbar, Humayun, Qasim, Soori, Lodhi, Qasoori, Suhrawardy, Bhutto…if we go on like this)
Don’t be unpatriotic. Be Pakistani, love Pakistani.
Support our Missiles ! Adopt a General !
The problem with all these so called ‘higher education’ programs is that they are missing the point. We don’t have a culture of scientific thinking. We have a culture of “Hacking and Circumvention” and we could use that in scientific ventures but we are not teaching kids how to do science so all that ingenuity is going into figuring out how to defraud our neighbours for small sums. All this intelligence capital wasted on fighting over crumbs.
Some guy who puts a motorcycle engine on a bicycle is called a “scientist”… no one knows what the scientific method is.. children are not taught to think critically, logically or skeptically. Most Masters in Science are fake in the sense that most of these people couldn’t do science to save their lives. They don’t know where the cutting edge is. They don’t know how to setup labs..
If we look at the ‘equipment’ that the 19th/20th century european scientists used, it was very crude.. most of the breakthroughs in (even atomic) physics were done on equipment that looks laughable today.. Many of the advanced research is done in pure mathematics..
It is all about formulating the question. And that needs a civilization and a society that has nurtured into the young people this spirit of discovery. Our society spends the first 5 years of our kids’ lives repressing the sh!t out of any originality or curiosity they might have. But we are resilient fvckers.. we still survive that onslaught of stupidity at a monumental scale.
I wonder how many world class mathematicians we have in our midst? I remember being told just to memorize integration functions because the teacher didn’t know exactly what calculus was all about. I failed miserably in Maths because I didn’t get it. I aced maths in North America because the teacher explained to me what the hell was going on .. maybe it’s me.. and I like to go from basic general principles.. but I find that knowing the basics is important.. but our education system doesn’t do any of that.
So, we can forget about scientific thinking. They make lab-technicians in the chemistry-practial period. You know how many moles blah and this many that.. blah.. but can any chemistry graduate actually do any new discoveries based on what they have learned in any of our Institutions? I don’t know.
So, in this environment.. how exactly are our scientists supposed to do “research”? What we need is a cadre of scientist innovating and creating new Intellectual Capital like China is now doing .. our science research is a joke.
We trot out these stupid missiles every time someone mentions it but that is merely application. We could use our long range missiles to send micro sattellites into space but has anyone at supari-co bothered to look into it? NUH-HOOOO !
because you see, we need “technology transfer” from ‘advanced’ nations and until they spoon feed us (good luck on that btw) we’re going to sit on our fat a$$es and devise new ways to bicker about 50 rupees here and 73 rupees there.
If people are taught properly, then how we would be able to govern and rule them. Thanks god that people like you are not in Pakistan but somewhere outside.
Otherwise it would have been so hard for Governors.
Now this is what you call back stabbers. They keep changing their tones and start playing with different ideas at the same time. One of them has posting messages just above you.
Day-umm! That video was hair-raising. Not the Karachi I remember. Sh!t. I wonder what was going through that guy’s mind who was beating the street light? And the guy who was bending the car door.
“…Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity…”
—Yeats
@TK
Its very very easy to criticize while sitting abroad,,
Why u scared 2 face challenges,,
U know PAK in need of talented people like U
So, why don’t u serve and try to apply your great ideas which u have mentioned in ur above post.. and at the same time u wont be disappointed since, currently HEC is providing very handsome amount of money 4 the foreign people who intend to come back and serve the country/./.
Try 2 do it ,, U’ll enjoy…
Dr. Kamal Uddin is physicist and among many retired professors that Dr. Zaidi have in his arsenal to get such kinds of project approved!. He previously worked in QAU.
To add, Dr. Kamal once enraged with the kind of support he had from Zaidi when his RA could not have access to single PC!
_______
I just quote from a very senior person who commented on Zaidi and Atta’s team:
“After destroying public colleges now they have been given task to ruin higher education”
Doesn’t NRO apply to scientists if they makes mistakes? or it is only for politicians and killers to save their billions of dollars.
I wouldn’t vote for trying Dr. Atta after Dr. A.Q. Khan whatsoever.
A lot of miracles are happening in our country:
- NS AZ bhai bhai
- AZ Altaf Kalia bhai bhai
- Shah M. Qureshi – foreign ministry
- Rehman Malik – interior minster
- No news yet about judiciary.
First we should think to try those you were behind:
- 12th May
- 3rd November
- Baluchistan and Fata operations
- NRO beneficiaries
if all above is done then scientists should be tried for mishandling of money and if happens otherwise we are going to make Pakistan an African country where you will find only corrupt/killer politician moving around freely but no scientists.
[...] Who is the real culprit? Posted on April 3, 2008 by pejamistri In a recent episode of Bolta Pakistan , Nusrat Javed and Mushtaq Minhas discussed — albeit in passing remarks [...]
I just published this on my blog http://pejamistri.wordpress.com/ , I think this is very important matter and we need to have an open discussion about it.
On the other hand let us take the example of a typical politician in dictator’s government. Mr. Wasi Zafar was the law minister in Musharraf’s regime , he made headlines during the judicial crisis in March 2007. Wasi Zafar was- as considered by many- the most incompetant law minister. In his own words he is not a learned person, he is just a politician. He is also famous for his high-handedness. But let us see how these two personality compare.
1. Mr. Wasi Zafar is a straight talking and simple minded personality. He does not try to hide his short comings and does not feel any qualms about accepting his mistakes. On the other hand Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman is a cunning , shrewd (in negative sense of the word) , and will usually try to feed wrong stories about his achievments and will do all the possible efforts to hide his mistakes sometimes criminally.
2. Despite being rediculed and thrashed , Mr. Wasi Zafar would always be available to media for the questions most of the time very harsh. On the other hand Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman will always shy away from media , and will never answer the difficult questions.
3. Mr. Wasi Zafar will have to face the Parliament for the questions and will also have to be answerable to his boss i.e. the dictator. Whereas Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman despite enjoying all the perks and benefits of the minister will never be answerable to Parliament and in fact anybody as the dictator needs him more than he needs dictator.
4. Mr. Wasi Zafar sooner rather than later will have to face the public in election, and usually will loose in the next free and fair election (in fact he lost in 2008 elections), and then it will be over. Whereas Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman will not be accountable on any forum and will try to stick to his job as long as possible.
5. Mr. Wasi Zafar may have to face the wrath of next government , specially if the next government tries to be ruthless. Wasi Zafars of this world will go through the ordeal of NAB and accountability and may have to spend time in jail, sometimes they may have to pay back the money they looted. However nothing of this will happen to Atta-ur-Rahman’s of this world.
6. Last but not the least Atta-ur-Rahman would still be able to sell himself as a technocrat and an educationist.
Comparison of a scientist known all of the world with Wasi Zafar. It seems we only deserve person like Wasi Zafars and Generals like Musharaf not scientists like A. Q. Khan and Atta.
You hold Zardari and Benazir accountable for their corruption and what did come out of that ? NRO ! and that ’s almost same in case of every corrupt politician.
I m not saying Atta is an angel but he has contributed a lot to higher education. I know dozens of students doing PhD and Postdocs abroad in top universities and all of them give its credit to him.
By the way most of them come from lower middle class who might never have dreamed to go abroad for higher education.
@poola
That is where the whole problem lies. Atta-ur-Rahamans of this world will still be able to find people like you defending him, whereas Wasi Zafars of this world will be ditched by their masters (Dictator) at the first opprutunity. Atta-ur-Rahmans of Pakistan are plague to Pakistan , they have always been their in big offices in Islamabad , they are molesting this nation without any fear for years. We need to identify them and bring them to justice. Democratic government is only the first step in that direction , we are learning our way to the future and I can assure you that time is not far off when such people will be hated by the masses much more than corrupt politicians are hated.
Most of you are giving reference to articles by Hoodbouy….
Well He is a geinius…no doubt…a good teacher of no match…can he be e good critic also???
i doubt NO.
You know he was the one among many others in QAU who domonstrated against Atomic blasts from Pakistan. Can a patriotic Pakistani do it? and specially at that time. NS has suffered hardships coz of those blasts mainly. Also you ppl can find such ffolish artilces by him on Atomic Energy Commision of Pakistan. What PAEC ppl have done alongwith Dr. AQ Khan is remerkable. They have suffered alot to get this achievement. You know those scientists worked hard day n night. you can find ppl suffered from radiations. still they did the task what was given to them. Hoodbouy never accepted this. Transparency of maoney in these cases is not possible.I cant tell you ppl the details. SORRY.
Any how, No one is perfect. Dr. Atta is not also. But for God sake admit it that what he has done is what no other in history of Pakistan has done. Coming to Foreign Universities in Pakistan. I am in one of those Universities rite now who were planning to establish its campus in Pakistan. All the homework was completed successfully. Its is law and order of the Country which is a hurdle. Please pray that the situation come to normal ASAP so that we can have these Universities in Paksitan. This will increse the standards of our own Universities. We cannot come to level of MIT at once. We have to travel alot.
I m not here to defend Atta-ur-Rehman but what ’s disgusting for me that you have been so brutally harsh to person who is known due to his good work. I m concerned because once I have been regarded respectfully by foreign researchers and scientists because his work and name being a Pakistani. He was the person known to ordinary chemists in Europe because of his work.
I m not very much aware of his mistakes or perhaps blunders if he had made. By the way, I have not read anything against him in Swiss courts or oil for medicine scandal.
What ’s wrong if he stays always in big offices? If you or me have something better to offer and stay in such office we should come forward to offer that.
*** After all he is the man who managed to sent thousands of lower middle class students for PhDs and PostDocs (on merit) — That ’s what forces me to write for him
*** Otherwise I know politicians (Makhdooms, Peers, Gillanis, Bhuttos) who themselves and their forefathers have been in power for years but they never took interest to built schools and colleges in their villages.
examples:
- Go and visit Nodaro you will see what has been done for education of Bhuttoo tribal where from 3 times prime ministers were nominated. it doesn’t mean they wasn’t able to do so but they didn’t want it to happen.
- Go to constituencies of Shah M. Qureshi, Yousaf Raza Gillani, Amin Fahim etc and have a look how many primary/high schools they have established there and what is the situation of those schoools. By the way, it might be interesting for you to watch Aak Din Geo ka saath (Y. R. Gillani) in which he visits a primary school (without roof and desks) in his constituency on his Pardo. I m sure if he had a school better than that he would have taken Sohail Warraich to it.
If Dr. Atta has done corruption, which I don’t believe very much, I would not prefer to hold him account because he, being Chairman HEC, has at least given us thousands of PhDs and PostDoc who will serve our nation in comming years.
His corruption can never be more that price of a Tank or Saray Mahal or future of thousands of children living on thousands of acres of land of your Peers, Makhdooms, Wadaras etc etc.
I will still salute him that he has given us teachers and researchers for our kids of future.
can you please go back in time and look how cambridge or oxford came into existance? how ppl thr worked hard and got knowledge from the top ranked scientists…Muslims…..
If we have good foreign universities in our country, our own universities would face a competition. this will contribute positively.
“Coming to Foreign Universities in Pakistan. I am in one of those Universities rite now who were planning to establish its campus in Pakistan. All the homework was completed successfully. Its is law and order of the Country which is a hurdle. Please pray that the situation come to normal ASAP so that we can have these Universities in Paksitan. This will increse the standards of our own Universities. We cannot come to level of MIT at once. We have to travel alot.”
even in the new economy, china or India or Russia or Brazil etc. where you see this policy?
reality?
1- what is the role of basic sciences in higher education and where do you see this being improved as per your policy?
2- how nation becomes innovative and how nation competes – any idea? take porter as starting point
3- In one of highly regarded beloved Dr Attas university, student at time of admission was told that your math is week so instead of telecommuniation you should study computer science and we are ready to give admission to you. (BTW math merit was 70 for telecom.) – how you are going to change basis for this
@poola: I appreciate your impassioned response these charges against Dr. Atta, but do you have any numbers or a link to any information that corroborates the claims that “he” has given us “thousands of PhD’s and post docs” ???
I just read somewhere that a HEC PhD costs the nation 1 crore. While a fully stocked Secondary School costs 1.8 crore (The Citizen Foundation numbers here)
For the lazy readers, this is what the schools cost:
Primary School 3 year support : 9,350,000 (less than 1 HEC white elephant)
Secondary School 3 year opperations: 18,450,000
So, the question we need to ask is, where does the nation get the most bang for the buck ??
1 secondary school plus 3 years operating expenses or 2 PhD students? The 2 PhD’s wouldn’t be bad at all if they actually returned, and upon return actually had labs to go to to do research (it’s not about writing papers.. it’s about research.. papers are a by product of the peer review process and therefore necessary – but our ‘academics’ seem to think that Europe has advanced magically by putting words in scientific journals)
BTW, I would appreciate it if you or anyone else can actually point to some statistics on exactly what percentage of these students actually return to Pakistan? and once they return, do we really have a network of research institutes which will absorb these people so that they can do research?
BTW, why the hell do we need Dr. Atta if the only good thing he’s done is act as a pilfering intermediary who has facilitated send students abroad? Could a small department of clerks do the same thing? Because it seems to me the grants he’s been giving (TO himself, among others) were neither peer reviewed nor transparently awarded (so much for the ethics of scientific research).
@poola
I have something personal with all such people including Naseem Ashraf, Shamshad Akhtar, Dogarah Chief, Ansar Burfi, Pervez Batts to name a few. And that’s what I am trying to highlight. The professional/ethical corruption is menace to the society. The financial corruption is just one aspect of people like Atta-ur-Rahman , and as Ahmed Bhai put so eloquently and I quote.
they also believe in corruption (Financial) by creating a whole system exposed to everyone apparently in a legitimate manner with biggest pie for themselves
You may still disagree with me , I don’t mind , but I am happy that there are many people who agree with me and who are looking into future. I am sure as we keep learning, time will come when these sacred cows will be touchable by “shoodars” like us.
Also, like they say in punjabi: chori kakh di vi tay lakh di vi..
so he is just as corrupt and guilty (actually more so, because he is an academic not some pistachio-feeding-to-his-horses Wadero) as Asif Zardari or Benazir, Shahukat Aziz, Chori Bradran and and assortment of Pakistani Jurnails looting our nation hand over fist.
“being Chairman HEC, has at least given us thousands of PhDs and PostDoc who will serve our nation in comming years.. … I will still salute him that he has given us teachers and researchers for our kids of future..”
Honestly this is the most scaring thing! our kids’ future is now a ? are these going to teach my kid? perhaps I was lucky as part of previous generation!
Do you know what a researcher is? Since Dr. Atta is inclined to the US system I put example from it.
the leading researchers / professors are enterprising as well. many commercializing their research as startup companies with selling near maturity . I can give you as many example as you want:))
In Pakistan the researcher if any will be after no. of publications and thats it. I personally know horrible stories of these publications!
In Germany there is debate for teacher and researcher. sum is that teacher needs not to be a researcher!
research has some focus – whats that in Pakistan. I am waiting to listen
@ahmed
@pejamistri
We should learn to appreciate,., instead of just looking for bad out of new happenings,,
Here, it is not the matter of Dr. Atta,,, ,I am dame sure that whoever had been there in place of Atta even Dr. Qadeer,, you guys would’ve been equally criticizing him like u r doing now…
The prblem is that being PAKi we don’t want to see the change, and whenever we see it we just start criticizing ……
Come on ,, be mature and think logically, don’t expect that withing 8 years of period PAKI scientists can explore the MARS and could be able to see the first live specie in MARS or may be in JUPITER…
Let the things happening…
I don’t know much abt this Nusrat nd Mushtaq. I am watching for the first time this prog,, on PKpolitics.com..
As mr Nusrat said he doesn’t know much about HEC nd its policies,,,but due to this so called Freedom of expression people like anchors of this program consider it is right to say any possible thing &for which they even don’t know… It is because they consider themselves as HEROES of pak,,… I don’t know which kind of heroes they exactly are,,,
I’d say to this prog anchors that be professional and don’t say whatever they want to but do some research first on the topic.
Its a real humiliation of Dr. Ata,, I’d say that these kind of anchors are sitting on TV to convince the others that EVERY THING of the previous GOVT was wrong.. and I am sure they will again be sitting and will be doing the same thing after 5 years with the new GOVT…
and BTW,, I am interested to know abt the people (posting in this discussion) who r criticizing the HEC policies,, that how much they know about the research methodologies and how many are really aware of the research and innovations….
@observer212
The topic is closed , but since you asked I have done post graduation and working in one of the biggest research labs in the world and have supervised more than 5 research projects (Post postdoctoral and Ph. Ds) in one of the prestigious university of the world (UCD Ireland)
@pejamistri
Do u have any thing for me to believe on this:
“Such people are usually not answerable to anyone they usually avoid direct questions from media. In the episode of Bolta Pakistan , the hosts tried hard to get in touch with Dr. Atta-Ur-Rahman however he refused to speak to them. And then later on sent a fax from his subordinate desk and asked them to contact his assistants. ”
Whatever the experience you have got while working 8 years in HIGH-TECH industry in ISB… I can’t buy your argument about Dr. Ata.. Since it is based on only one person’s experiences,,
My company boosts itself as the single largest company in terms of filing patents over the last 15 years and bringing most innovative technologies in the world , I do have some share in those innovations
As far as i remember you earlier have mentioned somewhere that you have been a journalist and covering supreme court and parliament session during your days of journalism.
Am I right?
If you are related to scientific research then you must be Pervez Hoodbhoy, being world class critic, because he is only person who can go to this extent.
@observer212
Watch episode on 2nd April , in which HEC sent a two page fax to these guys from the desk on Sohail Naqvi …
BTW you are entitled to have your opinion about anybody , I believe I have explained what I wanted to highlight. You may consider my opinion biased , unreliable or whatever.
@poola thanks for the compliments .. I wish I were a journalist , your compliments will be useful for me to get a job in Aaj TV but at the moment I am very happy with my job.
Please do give me the reference where I said I am a journalist , I have visited SC during my education several times but not for reporting.
I do also wish I were Pervez Hoodbhoy
@pejamistri
Well enough,, so u must be aware of the competitive environment of current world of research but still u r criticizing while HEC has taken some initiatives to the long journey of becoming as competitive as the current worlds is….!!!
Someone needs to take initiative and here is the problem, whoever does it first, becomes the victim of the brutal criticism of u guys…Why don’t u identify the problems in HEC policies directly to Dr. Ata,, Don’t you know communication is most easy now. All you need to write couple emails to HEC chairman and might need to dial from your cell phone..
But this can be happened when you consider HEC as your own institution, as your own country’s institution. Which has just began its journey..
But no ! you want to see everybody to step down from the previous GOVT.. We don’t want to see the sustainability in the good things initiated by the last GOVT.. Because we believe that one man was wrong so everybody must also be wrong. Why we are so rude and not letting HEC to prove the success of its initiated policies..??
There might be some defects in policy but everything couldn’t be perfect..
@pejamistri
Its Impressive. May I know abt ur company.??.
and BTW we need people like u in PK..
Do something for country at the same time as u r doing with the Co.
You can only satisfy pejamistri and Pervez Hoodbhoy and other such critics by putting them in the seat of chairman HEC. There is no other way whatsoever.
They would keep on criticizing even if you get a chairman HEC order with required genome to reflect all the needed functions.
@observer212
Your suggestion is good. But that is based on the assumption that I believe “one man is wrong so everybody must be wrong” , whereas it is opposite , everybody IS wrong. As I said dictator needs people like Atta-ur-Rahman it is not vice versa.
As far as suggestion to correct the HEC are concerned I think the Hoodbhoy’s article had certain suggestions in it , and there are several others even on this forum. As the head of the organization it is job of Dr. Atta to heed to these suggestions, not the other people to call him and give him suggestions. I have never heard someone calling Bill Gates to give him suggestions how to make Microsoft a better company …
Lets agree to disagree. You keep your high opinion about whoever you think is better.
Bill gates doesn’t need any suggestion,,, since whatever he needs he could buy it,,
Don’t compare Dr. Ata with Bill gates and nor HEC to Microsoft… Its no good.
Do read HEC people also in response to Dr, Hoodbhoy of QAU.. Don’t read newspaper just to see what you want to see. Don’t be so ignorant.
It seems you have the right to make one’s character bad in front of people who are reading these posts but you don’t feel your responsibility to make things correct instead just to see things are going wrong and making criticism while sitting on your computer desk. Problem lies some where here not in HEC policies.. we just need to look around us…
BTW how do u add smileys in your posts..??
@Observer121: yaar who are you to invite people to go to Pakistan? Do you work with HEC? Are you an academic doing research with them?
I really hope you’re not a researcher associated with HEC because that would ironically prove our point. I suspect you are one of those Intelligence agency loiterers who have a tendency to try to defend the heinous and indefensible actions of the previous govt. just to look good in front of ur bosses.
@TK
Pardon me…!!
I never showed my sympathy to any of the political happening of the last GOVT but I did show my best before you guys,, to stop your mouth to talk rubbish about Dr. ata..
U might dis-agree with the policies but don’t throw dirt to one’s character..
Its immature attitude..
BTW I love to work for PAK,, and because you guys don’t want it then it doesn’t mean everybody should follow your foot steps..
There are those people who just want to sit in their couches and always trying to get the BAD things from the happenings and spreading disappointments.
Don’t see the world with your eyes only..
And don’t become emotional,, I just tried to say truth and u blamed me of defending the whole policies of the last GOVT. This attitude making it clear that you guys are criticizing just to show that EVERY THING from last GOVT was wrong.. and thats why you are disgracing Dr. Ata….and as I already said it that the matter is not belong only to Dr. ATA whoever had been the chairman of HEC you people would’ve been doing the same thing with him/her..The reason is quite clear we always want to pulling the leg of the people who dare to do the things FIRST,..
Plz try to learn appreciate…
Dr. Ataur Rehman may be a good researcher but he has fuqqed over higher education in this country. Read Hoodbhoy.
Another fiasco that has not been mentioned is that of Dr. Shahid Hussain Bokhari (no relation to me) of UET Lahore. He was one of the most highly cited authors (the only one?) on the ISI citation list. He was made to quit because he disagreed with the HEC.
@mbokhari
that is something depressing , a person with 25 years affiliation left the institution and nothing happened. No media reported this. Let me tell you when I first wrote comment in this thread against Atta-ur-Rahman I was really worried that people might think that I am very biased, as my comments were based on my experience in Pakistan when I was unfortunate to work with this cult and had few interactions with Atta-ur-Rahman and let me tell you I was extremely disappointed with this guy’s thinking and approach. I resigned from a lucrative post even before 12th October 1999 (in Feb 1999) , because I was so much disappointed by the cheap thinking and tactics of these so-called technocrats. I left the government job and joined a private company and then never looked back into this cult.
So when I was posting this remark against Dr. Atta it were primarily based on my own experience and understanding of Atta-ur-Rahman’s working. I was afraid that I may have been harsh in judging this cult.
But thank you very much for posting this information , and I must say I am happy that my assessment of this cult was not wrong.
@observer212
your logical arguments are not very sound. As they call it in logic you are committing “poisoning the well” fallacy. I hope you just don’t keep on alleging me “leg puller” and “unappreciative” and so on. BTW I wish could pull the legs of few people in Pakistan
Let me tell you when I first wrote comment in this thread against Atta-ur-Rahman I was really worried that people might think that I am very biased, as my comments were based on my experience in Pakistan when I was unfortunate to work with this cult and had few interactions with Atta-ur-Rahman and let me tell you I was extremely disappointed with this guy’s thinking and approach. I resigned from a lucrative post even before 12th October 1999 (in Feb 1999) , because I was so much disappointed by the cheap thinking and tactics of these so-called technocrats. I left the government job and joined a private company and then never looked back into this cult.
——————————————————————————————————
If you had written this in the very beginning, people might have not wasted their time in arguing with you.
Unfortunately I know Dr. Atta as an insider, I am aware of how he got (COMSATS Institute of Information Technology) CIIT approved as a university when even UCET Taxila did not grant CIIT the status of its campus , even Sir Syed University did not allow CIIT a similar status. CIIT was not only given university status as soon as General made Dr. Atta minister of science & technology , but was also given huge funds in Lahore , Abbottabad.
Sorry if you wasted your time. Do always read the complete message in future so that you don’t waste your time again
@poola
Well I did not have a bitter experience at all , and I did not resign because of that experience. Sorry if you are mislead to believe this. Unfortunately I was too young at that time to resign like Dr. Shahid Hussain , I just resigned because I though I am misfit. Well if you are in anyway associated with this cult we can talk off-line and I can provide you the information when I resigned and whom I worked with , and you can check with this cult that how disapponted they were to loose me.
BTW I am on holidays these days I do enjoy them.
On the final note , let me say that it is getting very much personal now , my whole argument is given in the blog , I sincerely believe that professionaly and ethically corrupt people (in which I consider Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman as typical example in Pakistan) , are the worst people who cause irreparable damage to Pakistan whereas a corrupt politician is usually benign when compared with these people.
You may still disagree with it.
thanks
P.S. I hope no more discussion is required on this topic. Anybody who is interested in my previous experience can contact me via my blog. It will be good to protect my privacy. Specially if the people related to this cult are really interested to know who am I?
@pejamistri: I can see how anyone with integrity would be disgusted with the dirty tactics used by these so called ‘technocrats’ who have been a$$-raping pakistan for decades.
I don’t need to work with Atta and the gang to know these people are fraudsters. 52 lakhs for Quranic Reserach? Millions for VdG generator?
How many libraries could we have opened with this money that basically went to a bunch of kleptocrats? How many primary, secondary schools could have have opened?
And then we have FOOLS who can’t comprehend a sentence let alone put a proper one together who go on for pages yapping about ‘promoting positive aspects of X and Y’ . My advice: Stop trying to polish this TURD you have made Pakistan into. The very first step on the way to recovery is to accept and recognize that Pakistan is a little TURD now. You can try and spit polish it if you want, but trust me, it’s not gonna work.
@TK
Agreed Polishing a turd. excellent description.
BTW I came to know only yesterday about 52 lakhs for quarnic research and 13 lakh for writing a definition of “quantum computation” , perhaps a cut and paste from some article.
I still would like to say,, criticizing is the most easiest thing ..
But to do something real is the other thing.
Why don’t u guys try to do, some realistically instead of always arguing.
It seems you guys are sitting here just to say your ONE LINE agenda and not in a mood to listen others…
The world and PAK is not like back 1990s…
Its 2008 , wake up and do something…
If I m saying do something,, don’t take it personally because you are doing great already in your respective fields.
I meant was to do somethings for policy changes which you’ve mentioned all the way frm up to down in this blog…
Observer212, I think your criticisms could be applied to your comments as well.
let me tell you a little secret bro. It will serve ye well throughout ur life.
To solve a problem, you must first realize there _is_ a problem.
Then you brainstorm, and then a solution can be worked out. So, the useless part of this exchange and criticism has been the blind and unreasonable defence offered by HEC defenders who want to do it not based on merit but just based on some stories they might have read in a newspaper written by some fake lifafa journalist.
Despite all the hooing and hawing.. you were not able to provide any numbers on the “thousands of PHd’s ” that you claimed Atta had made possible for Pakistan. So I am going to assume you were talking out of your Hat.. until of course you provide some numbers to back your defence for the sake of defending someone.
Just by repeating “there isn’t a problem.. there isn’t a problem.. there isn’t a problem…” ad infinitum, the problems won’t go away. India isn’t advanced because indians say “positive things” (though that is also true) about India.. they’re advanced because they actually spent their money on institutions likt IIT etc. They didn’t allow fuQQing beardo’s to take over their universities and disrupt the education process in the name of Islam.
And now we have HEC doing this stuff which should bother you, despite the fact that Atta may be an angel personally. Look at what the guy is doing. If a guy is pissing in the mosque, you can’t convince me he’s not crazy or doing something wrong, just because he’s wearing a huge turban (that’s the kind of argument you put forward)
be real,, the projects are still going on.
It could be a miracle if u see the 1000s of PHDs before the projects are finished….
Be patience.. our Paki nation is so impatience ,, huh!!
Keep your eyes open, I am just saying that due to some wrongs you can’t consider a whole personality and characters and even his qualifications fake and useless.
Do you think IITs become prominent in india just at a glance?? Theres a whole period of struggle, mistakes and learnings.. Which you guys don’t let pak to do…and it can never be done if the things are going as they are going now…
So you are repeating “there is a problem, there is a problem, there’s a prob.. nd so on……. keep going well done..
BTW wht do u mean by “fake lifafa journalist” ???plz elaborate a little..
You see my point is that people always look for the dark side of the picture… and they never ever want to see the positive part of it…
When you want to believe on a news which you like most you don’t care who is delivering that one….
I’ll take it as Biased…
and I am afraid TK as inclining to become extremist abt his or may be her (cuz I don’t find his gender in blog) opinions…….
And i appreciate that you raised the point of:
———————————————————–
To solve a problem, you must first realize there _is_ a problem.
Then you brainstorm, and then a solution can be worked out.
@212 : Man you should really try to pick up chicks in different places,, not in a pakistani politics forum… It’s a sausage fest here bro.
Also, I didn’t say I didn’t believe you, I just said what is your source for the claim that you made.. Obviously you didn’t make that “thousands and thousands” thing up, I’m just saying.. tell us how you got that information? from a book? from the library? from the HEC website that never loads (and god knows how many millions of hard earned money was spent on that stupid site.. it looks like a 7 year old retarded kid developmed that site).
You see ,,,now you seem like a positive critic..
Thats true the HEC website is not as developed as it should be….. and that reflects they didn’t pay much attention to it.. which is their mistake.. we can send them a critic email to upgrade it.., in a positive hope that it will be done soon..
But if we make decision due to some bad experiences in past then I am afraid we don’t have any future at all…
But if instead of this we are going to compare every PAK things wid other countries then tell me where we are going…>??? today ur and others brutal criticism can make a guy (Dr Ata) to step down from its current position but I am sure you won’t be satisfied with the other one too… and will try to stepping other one down as well.. and the story will continue…
We are going nowhere my dear…. . ….
are you going to answer where you got the 1000’s of PHds number? Or should we just assume you made that up?
criticism needs to continue until honest people are there who do their job. Or these counterproductive nepotistics useless “research institutes” be dissolved.
btw, I have complete faith that you have NO answer to the question, so this discussion is effectively over.
I never raised question of this 1000s numbers,.
But I do know that more than 500 students are working in european universities, for their PhDs….. Almost 100s are working for their half part of phds in USA, UK and europe and Australia,,,,
About 1500 students in PAK are working for their indigenous PhDs….
Don’t ask me about the source of the exact number because I am not the HEC employee….
As I told you,, if you have a curious mind you can ask your every question to the direct authority by three different ways,,, shld I tell U those ways,, don’t say yes otherwise,, nothing I’ll tell U how…
Don’t make lame excuse of NOT RESPONDING,, As i told you do something to make change,, otherwise,, keep try to close the discussion..
In used to be a big fan of NJ but i am surprised to see his ignorant personality on the issue of Education and Dr. Atta. Before any one picks on Dr. Atta, I would ask him to go and do some research on his personal and academic background. He belongs to a rich and intelligent family and certainly don’t need any crap from guys like NJ. Yes he was part of a dictator’s Govt but we should have at least some courtesy to praise some one who has done such good things for education in Pakistan. No one is perfect and certainly Dr. Atta is not. But you need to benchmark his performance to the last 60 years of Education Ministers and only then u can pick on him and that is if u find some thing on him.
NJ has a die hard appetite of negativity and conspiracies…..
COMSATS rector Dr Junaid Zaidi and Dr Atta ur Rehman had employed and awarded scholarships in ciit to sons of generals, hihg ranking army officer, bureaucrats and their friends n relatives .Dr zaidi own son got inducted in ciit and was awarded phd scholarship in a lateral way and institutional coverage was provided in this white collar crime for instance scholarship committee includes people like his immediate relatives and friends.Also he opened a campus in attock to please Dr Ata ( from attock ) and then PM (shuakat aziz) + chaudary bros…..he used the same modus operandi now by decalring political campuses in vehari,multan and larkana now to attract the attention of PM and Mr Asif Zardari.
These bureaucrats are no sincere to any government and they just want to make some money and abuse power and look for politicians and generals who can join hands with them in looting the country……
well if takes looting in the garb of service to nation…….we call it ‘pakistan first’
First few minutes, Nusrat talks about PTV who didn’t give live coverage of PM Yusuf Reza Gilani and gave live coverage to President Musharraf.
PRESIDENT MUST BECOME CERIMONEAL.
Prime minister is true represention of people power and executive.
Shame on PTV
Higher education commision has done good work , but their is definitly more space for improvement
Dr Ata ur rehman is a learned and respected educationist
Dr Ata is a respected Pakistani educationists. I think he should be given more funds. He has done what he could with meagre resources (in 2006 budget speech Kh Asif said: 18 billion rupees education & 350 billion on defence). Pakistani eduation budget must increase otherwise even people like him cannot do much!
It will good for dr ata to resign honourably. People will remember his good work.
Let the new government bring a new person.
A person oF dr rehman calibre does not necessarily need minister status.
I know many in friends and family who are sponsered by HEC for Phd.
We have success stories in higher eductaion.
Aga khan university.
LUMS.
FAST.
GIK
We need to improve our basic education as well. Primary school teacher need respect and honourable salary.
@democrat pakistani
Are you giving credit of LUMS, FAST etc to HEC, or did you just mentioned names in higher education?
Dr ATA and his team (Including Dr. Shoail Naqi) has done a wonderful job for this country, He really able to make an institution and perhaps the only one in last 8 years which has promoted by and large merit system in higher education. My request to Minister is please dont politicize this institution which started giving the fruits and will impact heavily in future.
About lifting the ban on the students unions i personally disagree, because in my view it will badly hurt the environment developing in the public sector universities. The most of the students in public sector universities belongs to poor or middle class and to involve them in bad politics (which our past record suggest) is not a good sign for future. Even now we are not competitive in the reputed international universities. In my view the children of elite class studies either in abroad or in private universities so the poor or lower middle class children will suffer and distracted from the real purpose the education.
My suggestion is at least union should remain still banned in UETs and other institutions of technical education.
Nursrat was not talking about Mr. ata. He was talking about left over from the previous Government.
@shaz
You are asking to ban some thing which we have not seen in action. Student politics have given great political personalities. You have to open up your mind.
Politics is not dirty or bad thing. These yurkails has made it so.
I liked the way Nusrat Shah defended Bil Bhutto for studying in Oxford.
We should keep the “chopayas” jahil and ganwar.
Media should help us in doing that.
plz email at
boltapakistan@aaj.tv
and give a feedback to them about Dr ata and his work. because we need basic education but also a good higher education and Dr shab is doing a good work
@ econfused
You are asking to ban some thing which we have not seen in action. Student politics have given great political personalities. You have to open up your mind.
____________________________
Dear brother its better we havnt tested this. I graduated from that university where everybody wants to in Pakistan and fortunately or unfortunately governed by the army and then taught in public sector university for some time. I also remember they days in UETs when people use to graduate in 6-10 years. I can bet you i know low of people from public universities specially in engineering, suffering badly in studies or research in abroad due to poor concepts, inadequate knowledge. I know how the notes and rata culture is common and if someone tries to bring in change some of the student mafia really plays. I observed the input to the universities is very nice, dedicated, and cultured childern but unfortunately the most of the output is in converse. The parents of these children really invest their life saving and what they get is really a less than a mechanic caliber engineer.
Student Unions should be allowed but their role should be limited. No political parties should be allowed to have student wings. The Union elections should be on individual basis and the Unions shoudl not have anything to do with academic issues liek curriculum and exams/exam dates etc. Uniosn should only be concerned with providing facilities for students and organizing extra-curricular activities like book fairs etc.
You people are confusing student unions with student political wings. There is a difference.
Second, about HEC. I agree that Dr. Atta is a good man and his intentions are noble. But his methodology is wrong. I totally agree with that caller because of my personal experience. I have two Pakistani friends here with me doing graduate studies on HEC scholarship and they’ve told me that if they get a job here, they wont go back. That’s how young kids who are not interested in teaching and just get out of the country for a better future think. And I agree with them since why would a 25 year-old guy, who is not married and has no family in Pakistan other than parents and siblings who can live away from him, would want to go back? They usually get a job here after their degree, and usually marry someone from here to get a quick green card to settle here. Otherwise, if they get the green card themselves, they marry a girl from Pakistan and bring her over here as well. His parents and siblings are okay as long as he sends them remittances. That’s how our Pakistani families are whose children live abroad. Why would they want to go back and work as a professor for some university for a pay that is much less than what they can get here working for a private corporation?
So Dr. Atta’s methodology is wrong. With so much public money pouring into higher education, there needs to be better planning so that the country benefits from the money being spent on these students. Pakistanis dont pay humongous taxes so some kid can study abroad with that money and settle there comfortably for the rest of his life!
You people are confusing student unions with student political wings. There is a difference.
_________________________________
Certainly i am referring to the political wings to student unions. With non-political unions no body have any problem. But our experience says in our universities only political unions exists and rest dies. Lets be more pragmatic…
But his methodology is wrong…………
__________________________________
I partially disagree with the caller, the youngness of a person dont disqualify him to be a good lecturer or teacher, My experience tells me that in Govt universities most of the old lecturers, APs or Professors are simply not wiling to learn or study themselves. I know the teachers not willing to change the subjects which they have been teaching since ages. I know the professors with simple B.E, no publication, nothing and they got promoted to this post just because of experience. I am even not the scholar of HEC, but i personly think that this is the right approach to bring in the young blood in education sector, because our previous system is totally a failure, how many PTCLs , WAPDAs, HMCs we need to dump in the engineers, look at the pathetic condition of KESE etc.
They only need is that HEC should focus on strong guarantors or pay back methods to bind the guy to come back and serve.
Dr Atta? this is prime time to investigate this co called educationists and his team. Same person who did not allow Ahsan Iqbal to open university when every one opened university!
And some one mentioned sohail naqvi in HEC? just to remind he is son of (in)famous General naqvi – HEC and army regime worked very closely.
@ Ahmed Bhai
I dont know Sohail Naqvi is son of which General but i can tell you that his all the education from BS to PhD is from US, His education and career record is excellent and he has more than 10 patents and above 100 papers in reputed Journals and conferences of world.
Unfortunately I know Dr. Atta as an insider, I am aware of how he got (COMSATS Institute of Information Technology) CIIT approved as a university when even UCET Taxila did not grant CIIT the status of its campus , even Sir Syed University did not allow CIIT a similar status. CIIT was not only given university status as soon as General made Dr. Atta minister of science & technology , but was also given huge funds in Lahore , Abbottabad.
But this is not the only issue, as I said in previous comments , the people like Dr. Atta are ethically and professionally corrupt people. I know that many people in Pakistan hate politicians like Chaudaries and Asif Zardaris , who are financially corrupt and make huge financial corruption while in government, however I hate people like Dr. Atta as much as people hate financially corrupt politicians. Financial Corruption is simply a one time wound , a person can make billions of rupees while in government but as soon as he is gone , he can not do the same. Similarly usually sometimes you can get the money back from a corrupt person when he/she is not in government.
But an ethically and professionally corrupt person is like a cancer to the society , he/she plagues the whole department and the impact of his/her corruption is long lasting. Besides that since people believe that he is a “professional” and “his intentions are noble” , nobody actually realizes how much damage this guy has done with the nation. I know how HEC is being run , I also know how these “noble” and “professional” people fight over petty cars of “black honda accord” and “white mercedez”. How these people publish palagarized “research” papers in journals.
These people are parasites , I remember clearly how hecticly they started their efforts on 12th of October 1999 to get in touch with the new dictator , the group included (Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, Dr. Naseem Ashraf, Pervez Batt etc.). Goddamnit these are a plague to this nation.
To be honest I sincerely believe that such people should be made an example for the nation. Their “kartoot” should be told to government and democratic government should tell the nation that it is not the corrupt politicians who damage the nation , it is these people who damage the nation irreparably.
@Pejamistri
Completely agree about Atta, et al!!!
But nothing is gonna happen as far as “I sincerely believe that such people should be made an example for the nation”. They will all go scot-free and get to keep their loot. Maybe even get appointed to the UN
Shaz:
it is no surprise that most generals’ children got education from elite US institutes as package deal to support US. It is these circumstances which equipped these children what you call ‘record excellence, PhD, Patents and papers’. This circumstance theory is quite known in Philosophy and sociology
….
Even Bilal Musharraf has degrees from Illinoise UC and Stanford –
Anyways My point is what pejamistry mentioned.
to give just one example of this corruption linked with financial corruption is:
generally those close of dr. Atta and in particular those from CIIT and close to this regime made millions via virtual university. Now VU is also head by another MIT return – OK But video lectures was just a way to make money.
Do You know how CIIT lahore campus started and ‘vision’ of Dr. Zaidi? It is shame to tell how desperate he was to start that campus using web developers team of his institute….
lots to tell but I wish if they are probed
It is amazing how these people fed these stories to the people , “100 papers in well reputed journals” and “10 patents”
Dr. Atta has most papers published in the “well reputed journals” , he considers himself the best scientist ever produced by this nation , he is self proclaimed greates scientist of the world. He spends half of the year out of the country. He targets his prey in US , looks for the ethically corrupt people their , lures them with financial perks , I personally know several people who refused to be lured by him , the doctors from MIT and University of Berkley. Several people left Pakistan disappointed by this person alone. We must remember that any real professional can forgive financial corruption however it will be really hard for any professional to ignore ethical corruption in his/her profession.
Doctors and engineers loose their practicing licenses if found guilty. I wish same for educationists as well.
_____________
another example of their financial corruption:
they place their children in good companies, then sign contracts of work with those companies and money comes via their children- paid high salary – all legal!
HEC biggest achievement is not to send PhD abroad but to make 7-8 new European Universities in Pakistan. They will start operating from 2010 or so.
It will be so great to have TU-Lahore and KTH-Sialkot etc. Then foreigners will be coming to Pakistan instead Pakistanis going abroad.
I will hate our new Education minister and NS if they stop these excellent things to be happened with Pakistan. I will never vote for them again.
DR Attur-Rehman is still best option for HEC.
Minhas rightly said that the closeness of dictator is not sign of disqualification
Are Dr. Atta and his cronies reading this thread? If so , Mr. Atta please leave this nation at least do one good thing in your life , I hope education has given you some self-respect, take care of that. You have made a lot of money now do one favor to this nation and pack up and go away in a respectable manner.
BTW there is another plague to this nation whose name is Naseem Ashraf , that guy I believe has no self respect he is the exact copy of his boss the mad dictator. I hope NJ and MM discuss his kartoots as well in their program.
Do you have some prove or you only believe in putting BOTANs on others?
Have you seen Dr Atta accounts before writing this?
I know this lecturer who is a caller! He himslef has been dismissed from his from Foundation University as he was also serving in Quaid-e-Azam University at the same time. I’ve seen him all the previous year in Pakistan and not sure from where he has got his Ph.D He also used two different names in this program. Earlier, on constitutional issue he called as Shabaz and in this program he has called as Shabir. His full name is Shabaz Shahbir. This means that this program also gives preference to certain set of callers who simply wanted to develop a mindset and raise issues. I think they are being paid to open pandora boxes with dubious callers!
I agree that Dr Ata shouldn’t have done dirty work. He has awarded many fake universities a charter.
For example, there is a fake American university called Preston. This university has not even a single class room in the USA. This one room university was made by a Pakistani called Shahid Malik.
There is a loophoe in Two US states where you can register an office as a ‘postsecondary’ institute and issue certificates based on distance learning. These two states are Wymong and California. These fake universities open campuses in third world countries and call their certificates ‘MBA’ etc. These fake degrees have no value (you can check British Government website).
Dr Ata awarded this Preston University Charter. A university that has one room in the USA becomes a proper US university in Pakistan!!!
As far as HEC is concerened then HEC has not only used its own funds but also gained huge amount of support from international donor countries. Moreover, HEC has sent students to the European countries where Ph.D. does not have any tuition fee. So, HEC has brought silent revolution in the univeristy system of Pakistan and I fully support these initiatives as the faculty member of a public sector university. Dr. Atta and Dr. Sohail Naqvi are the real blessings for our country and we should get maximum return from their exposure and intellectual capabilities.
Well I know very well how does he make money. Not only in the senate his high profile foreign tours were presented with all the accounts just recently.
I always say that until people like Ata in our society are not given the same treatment as the corrupt politicians are given by the media. Our society will remain hostage to these people , persons like him are not just related with the dictator , in fact these parasites are fed on the blood of poor people forever , he was there even in NS government before 1999. These people should be hated just like a common man will hate a corrupt politician.
@someone
BTW if you think I am talking about financial embezzlement as a politician does , then you are wrong. I am talking about professionally unethical conduct and corruption.
Optimist:
Preston uni: not by Shahid Malik but Abdul Basit
Its registration in Pakistan under HEC is not part of american which used to be…
It has better campuses in Pakistan than many other universities…
HEC office islamabad is also the property of abdul basit
Pakistani:
Its good to have universities open but let me actually tell you the business model:
get graduation in 4 years then don’t find job->start teaching in the same university->get scholarship abroad-> leave for 3-5 years-..
In all 4-8 years no burden on dictator government for employement.
HEC Funds should be audited by an independent Auditor. There is another question that why the proposed university of Mr Ehsan Iqbal was refused charter despite of fulfilling all the criteria? I fully support the idea of C and D class university. It is better to send fewer students to top class universities rather than third rated universities. NTS test itself is amazing especially when it is called GRE general type. I guess HEC should be overhauled. Lastly, i guess these days HEC top elite including Mr Atta are trying their best to survive but it seems that GAME IS OVER
@ Ahmed Bhai
I was writing from my memory. So I might have mixed up a name.
Fake US universities often have big campuses outside US because they want to make a lot of money by fooling third world students that they are getting proper American degrees.
You endorsed my point by saying that HEC office islamabad is also the property of abdul basit (owner of Preston University).
NTS was the brain child of Junaid Zaidi, It is another unethical and sinister act on part of this team. BTW Junaid Zaidi is currently the rector (reporting directly to President
) of the CIIT.
If one compares business model of preston and CIIT, then there is no difference at all – same business strategy. but CIIT was Dr. Atta’s beloved child! with access to public funds and now big shots on payroll,, which are difficult to immitate by private business owners like abdul basit.
_______
In deed Dr. Atta’s policies has stigmatize non degree holders/ diplomans, polytechniques at one end, which are mandatory for manufacturing development. take example of korea. the so called system also does not meet needs of service industry and India is just one example that excel directly into services otherwise the normal transformation is manufacturing->Services…
few years back NCR was not able to find just 400 graduates!
And I dont think Pakistan will have google type companies in next 2 decade even who prefer programmers with PhD degrees.
The HEC website records the research award grant list of 2003-2004, one of which is :
“Quranization of courses at the M.Sc. Level. Higher Education Commission, Islamabad. Dr. Saadia Khawar Khan Chishti 5,581,000, three-Year. Researches by Muslims as well as by non-Muslims have confirmed that Al-Quran has the roots of disciplines both known as well as unknown to humanity. As such, it becomes obligatory for any Islamic state to weave the Quranic perspective into its curricula. Broadly speaking, the main focus of this project is Quranization of existing science courses at M.Sc.level by weaving the Quranic perspective into the syllabus without changing the contents of the course.”
anyone knows or has heard of Q League and its top brass the Chor-dhry Brothers
untill last month they were making huge claims but suddenly seem to have disappeared???
REFORMS! WHAT REFORMS?
by Pervez Hoodbhoy
The reasons for the failure of the HEC reforms are many. Money is one of them. There has been too much of it, too quickly. Foreign donor agencies and governments, fearful that an uneducated and unskilled Pakistan may become an epicenter of terrorism, have panicked and tripped over each other to offer aid for education. The higher education budget has skyrocketed to 11.7 billion rupees.
These fabulous sums pouring into higher education have created the all too familiar behaviour of the newly wealthy. HEC has paid for a massive publicity blitz, with huge newspaper advertisements and colored multi-page supplements, devoted to breathless self-promotion of HEC, its leadership and its projects.
The HEC boasts of over 350 scientific and university related projects, amounting to 25% of the total number of projects being executed by the Government of Pakistan in all fields. But looking at the projects on the HEC website (www.hec.gov.pk) produces disturbing proof of gross administrative incompetence, carelessness, wastage on an unprecedented scale, and a culture of sycophancy. Projects that bear no relation to meaningful improvements of science or education in the country are being approved in desperate haste.
@pejamistri
Thanks for sharing the information about Dr. Att
Sometimes I get the feeling that you are a professional journalist [Just the amount of information you seem to have]
I am currently doing my M.Sc. from UK. I believe that educational reforms are not possible without upgrading the qualitity of indigenous institutions. I agree that only serving teachers should be sent on HEC scholarship. The existing NTS is highly defective screening system. I dont doubt the intentions of Professor Ata ur Rehman. I respect him for his services. But I think, he could not marshall the available resources properly. In my view, Pakistan should develop its instituions and develop a tolerant culture so that we should market our instituions in Africa, East Asia and Sout East Asia. In this way not only we can earn foreign exchange but also increase the competitiveness of our educational system.
@ Muhammad Hanif Gul.
U said that existing NTs is highly defective system. i think u also know about US universities and some others speacially for scholorship grant must need GRE. and NTS is almost similar test like GRE. secondly i have engineering background, and i know majority of the existing teachers of Engineering University are not capable to pass GRE so they also lack in NTS. we need new blood at our university level and i think the policy of Dr ata is ok.
Gul:
Dr. Atta and his team had this plan which did not work out. CIIT had one such initiative. Since you are studying in UK now, you sould appreciate the connection between industry and academicd especailly in R&D. How long it takes to export education system – perhaps now US and Uk have just started towards china, singapore, and dubai though limited.
As mentioned in the program, King Advert has long lasting repo – now at risk – BUT you can’t do this with startups!
@ADMIN
I really appreciate your effort which you invested in making this forum. I have just one sugggestion about the comments section. Try to think of it as in a bit hierarchical structure rather than this linear one, and replies to any commenter should be directed to him via email as well.
@ADMIN
This suggestion might have been floated before. I think, for each video, there should be a special comments section in which the persons directly affiliated with the video replies to queries (If they are available, and efforts can be vested to pursue them to visit this forum which I believe is the biggest forum related to Pakistani politics and Pakistani Media) …
Profile of Ahsan Iqbal:
Ahsan Iqbal (born September 28, 1958 in Lahore) is the current Education Minister of Pakistan, with additional portfolio for Minorities.[1] He is also the information secretary of the center-right party PML-N. He was elected as an MNA from his constituency NA-117 (Narowal-III) in the February 2008 elections.[2] He is slated to become the Minister for Education in the coalition government of PPP, PML-N, ANP and JUI-F formed after 2008 elections.[3]
Ahsan Iqbal, son of Iqbal Ahmed, was born in Lahore in 1958. He was schooled in PAF Public School, Sargodha, GC College, Lahore, and UET Lahore, before moving to Wharton School of Business at University of Pennsylvania for postgraduate studies. He also took part in the Oxford University Program at the prestigious University of Oxford.
His political career started in 1980 when he joined the Islami Jamiat-e-Talaba, the student wing of Jamaat-e-Islami, at UET Lahore. It was in 1988 when he joined PML-N (it was called IJI then), and steadily rose be its information secretary during the regime of General Pervez Musharraf. He was elected for the first time as an MNA from his constituency NA-90 (Narowal) in the General Elections of 1993, and later from the same consituency in February 1997. He won his seat again in 2008, after losing in 2002, from his native district of Narowal.
@ aahmed
A bit personal note on Ahsan Iqbal
His whole family is very decent. His mother Aapa Nisar Fatima was in female wing of JI. She was highly respected role model for women who followed religion. His brother was one year senior to me in GC Lahore. Last time I met him (in 1998), he was studying at London School of Economics. He (brother of Ahsan Iqbal) made a think tank organization in Pakistan and I was one of the proud members of that organization. When his brother visited Pakistan (while he was at LSE), he told me – for the first time – that he is brother of Ahsan Iqbal. He never mentioned his family when he was in GC Lahore.
Looking at Ahsan Iqbal and his family’s decency, I am sure he was a misfit in IJT. That is why he moved to PML N.
Its a pity that when we start looking at the down side of an issue, then we act as if there is not an iota of goodness in the whole act.
Dr. Atta may have some personal downfalls, but that does not nullify everything.
It was a shame when that caller said that the HEC students are studying in third rated Universities. I have personally known a few HEC scholars, and they were all studying in the state run national Universities, and the money spent on them is in no way going in the drain.
Its true that the US Universities are the only hype these days, but that certainly does not limits the quality of education the European Universities are imparting.
The quality control of all those state owned Universities is as strict regarding the scientific content of their work as in the US. Their work is reviewed by the same reviewers doing it for the US Universities. Their professors have earned high impact factors, and are too happy to have students from Pakistan.
Pakistani people are used to of working with minimal resources, and when these students find all the right scientific environment, they really excel there.
It was equally discouraging to see the readiness of Nusrat Javed to entertain the conspiracy theory of that caller; as if he is just looking for some controversy and then to argue in its favor! A person of his caliber should do investigative journalism rather than speculating one.
On the other hand, its true that students who are single, and were not working back in Pakistan will prefer to settle abroad after finishing their studies. That is a matter to discuss. But then, having lost millions and billions on failed taxi and tractors schemes, its painful to see how they are crying for spending a few millions on education. They have already gone pessimist that nobody will come back, and we will be ruined and and and!
If out of these 2000 (i dont know the exact number) students, even 70% come back, is it a bad deal?
and lets say they are not graduating from the best around institution, are they worse than the government Universities in Pakistan also?
I do not understand a very simple thing, If HEC is doing all good and everything is fine, why DR ATTA & co is afraid of an independent audit of the accounts and affairs? Why HEC & Co is so offensive when Dr Hoodhbhoy calls for tranparency. I think when such huge sums are involved the tranparency is very much expected or else we have the right to expect the biggest corruption in name of Higher Education in Pakistan.
@ optimist
r u talking about NAUJAWAN organisation?
Man that GC is a den of demon-crazy liebrals innit?
LOL
Dear All
and Specially The Anchors of the program!!!!
Well it seems that you people are strucked to a point. THE PhDs!!!!! as called by the caller the 3rd Class PhDs!!!
I am sorry thats not the case. I my self is a HEC Scholor and was a teacher in Pkaistan in Top Ranked Engineering University. I disagree that HEC is sending people in 3rd class universities. Most people are doing PhDs from well known Institutions. Its always very hard to get admission in Harvard or MIT. HEC do support anyone who gets admission in such HIGH RANKED universities. The fact is that THE EDUCATION LEVEL OF OUR OWN UNIVERSITIES IS SO LOW THAT NOT EVERYONE IS CAPABLE OF GETTING ADMISSION IN THESE INSTITUTIONS. So isn’t it better that those students who cannot get admission in such high ranked universities, be sent to little low ranked universties, though the rank is not that LOW.
As far as the MONEY involed is concerned, I must tell you all that its not too much. The scholorships we get are equal to the minimum pay in that country that equals to 1200USD in Europe and 800USD in CHINA. So I think HEC is getting good output from low input.
As I told you before that I myself was in a University in Pakistan and I had a close contact with HEC. They are not only putting in money in PhDs but also in improving the infrastructure, labs, etc. And indeed they are doing it efficiently.
They have provided Broadband Internet facility which was not the case before. They have introduced teacher evaluation criterion. They managed to upgrade the educational levels.
You can by yourself can go to any university in Pakistan now and you can feel the change.
Please donot see the case from one side; its true that we need good primary education. But HEC means HIGHER EDUCATION COMMISION. It is responsible only of higher education not primary. Ministry of Education is responsible for that. If education minister (40 Supary wala) was incapable of uplifting of primary education , Dr. ATTA couldn’t do any thing and he should not be blaimed off. HE was and is BRILLIENT.
Regards
The old faculty members are afraid of loosing their positions to young and talented HEC scholars. The allegation that HEC sends scholars to substandard universities is totally absurd. I am witness of a number of bright young scientists doing there PhDs (and publishing more papers than the old lot did in their entire career).
Its time to acknowledge the great projects of HEC and Dr. Atta. He is a brilliant person and a good leader (look at the HEJ performance under his leadership, it has turned into a world class institute)
@ BitterTruth
But we should not miss 2 Important points
1- This HEC idea was originally given by Ahsan IQbal as part of Pakistan vision 2010 programme in NS govt. It was not the vision of Mush or Dr Atta.
2- Original plan was to focus on APPLIED SCIENCES focused to our main industries like textile but due to mismanagement and lack of vision and planning of Dr Atta , it did not happen.
Also there was no balance between the ratio of budgest for skool education to budget fro HEC Phds.
Another gem from the Hoodbhoy article @mbokhari posted (emphasis mine):
J.T.F.C !!!
A Van De Graf generator? WTF? HEC my a$$!!
@Someone: Dude can u explain why a goddamned ‘phsyicist’ would approve 3 million dollars for ‘research equipment’ (Van De. Graf generator) which became obsolete 50 years ago in the field of Physics research ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This is like proposing buying a steam engine to ‘research’ the latest aerospace concepts! (that may still make some sense) But this Van DeGraf sh!t really drives me up the wall.. I’m not a physicist, and even I know the world moved on from Van DeGraf generators half a century ago!
You don’t need to look at his accounts! His actions sound like that of a FREAKING FRAUD!
Read Pervaiz Hoodbhoy’s article, it takes the info directly from the HEC website.
A sitting Brigadiar of education corps told me proudly; 50% of HEC’s funding goes to NUST(Army run university in rawalpindi) and 25% to Comsats.
Having said that I must add that Dr Atta ur Rehman has done unparalleled service to higher education in the history of Pakistan.
Dr.Atta is a genius. He should be acknowledged for his efforts. We can have different opinions on HEC and its mode of operation. But Dr.Atta has a vision and his commitment can never be in doubt. Before HEC started this program, the people from lower class could never have thought of getting higher education in foreign countries specially in the West.
So instead of believing in anybody’s words with close eyes, we must consider the kind of change the HEC has brought under Dr.Atta.
@ econfused
I agree the isntitutions have nothing to do with HEC.
10 YEARS is long time, even if we agree dr Ata has done good work, it is time for for graceful exit
@Paki_2008: Why would this ‘genius’ approve the purchase of a Van De Graf generator for ‘cutting edge research’ in Physics (all the more poignant because this ‘genius’ of yours is supposed to be a physicist!)
Would you call a man who approved millions of dollars of poor Pakistani’s blood and sweat to purchase a steam locomotive to research the latest hybrid car technology????
He also approved 53 lakhs for his research (IN CHEMISTRY) to prove some Noble Laureate wrong (this from a ‘physicist’ who doesn’t know VDG generators became obsolete 50 years ago!)
This makes him sounds like a FRAUD to me…
Is it too much to ask of the apologists on this forum to keep the Nation’s interest first and foremost?
Maybe he is an evil genius.
@TK
Dr Atta’s field of research is Chemisty.
@ Optimist
which organisation of Ahsan Iqbal’s brother u were referring to?
@mbokhari
Thank you very much for the great article, it sums it all , now I think people will agree with me that this guy (Dr. Atta) is professionally corrupt person , I have perhaps the most respectable evidence (Pervez Hoodbhoy) on my side. Honestly those who wants to give benefit of doubt to Dr. Ata should reconsider their opinion after reading this article, BTW I was just reading the list of projects that article mentioned , amazingly CIIT got 32 grants worth of 91 million rupees i.e. more than $1.5 millions out of 423 million, it makes up 20% of the total grants , and the universities like BZU , University of Peshawar and several others.
And here is another gem from the list of project:
They need 1.3 million rupees to do this . I have never heard about this guy Dr. Kamal Uddin , he was not there when I was in Pakistan , but the project was awarded in 2004 and was for 3 years and should have been completed by now. I am really interested to find out did they write 2-3 research papers per thesis in field of Quantum computing. BTW this is my field too and I am doing PhD
Not on HEC scholarship 
@ GM
I was referring to Naujawan organisation. We used to have meetings in Flaties (?) hotel.
Were you in that organisation as well? I was the quiet one!! Lols
@commoner: thanks for the correction. Still, his approval of a “pork barrel” project only highlights the fact that this organization which is supposed to emphasize research (a peer reviewed endeavor) has no peer review process of its own (or any transparency for the awards process) and they are incompetent to the point of wasting 3 million US dollars of money squeezed out of Pakistanis via taxes on fuel and atta on something that a layperson like me knows. And that is in just this ONE instance.
This was not oversight. This was connivance and conspiracy to defraud the poor taxpayers of Pakistan.
And we have poor people jumping into canals with their children because they can’t afford food for their kids. People selling their kidneys just so they can eat and maybe send their kids to primary school. This ‘bay hiSi’ of our nation really rubs me the wrong way.
@pejamistri
When all is said and done, the corruption (even if ethical) amounts to peanuts when compared to the fiscal and cultural AIDS introduced by the jurnails. I don’t mind it that much. I have had a brush with the HEC and their NTS programs. Laughable, yes, but still they were sending people abroad for education. You can’t go much wrong with that even if the students were not very good or the universities sucked.
Even the Quranization blunder and the Van de Graaf thing is not a big deal financially. What bothers me MOST are the fake 9 universities. I think this is what is going to sink Dr Atta and the HEC. Come on. Its been more than 5 years since we started hearing about it. Like Hoodbhoy says, it was better to have ONE university sponsored by the EU than have 9 which won’t even have 9 Europeans teaching in them.
In one article Hoodbhoy wrote that LUMS being the topmost Pakistani University had started their School of Engineering and they had severe problems recruiting worldclass faculty EVEN if it was of Pakistani origin. Europeans? Fuhgeddaboudit !!
HEC European Universities scandal is going to be bigger than Cooperative Societies Scandal, Mehran Bank scandal and anything else that you can think of.
Been there. Known that. News at 11.
If they really wanted to start a good worldclass level university they should have taken a look at the King Abdullah Uni of Science and Tech. in Jeddah. The KAUST program has a budget of USD 200 billion and still has birth pangs.
UESTP-Chicha Watni? haha.
@ Mbokhari
US 200 billion is a lot for any country.
Even our defense budget is $4.5 dollars!!! (for half million Faujis if not few thousand officers) And as for education budget for 17 crore people (duty is to educate whole nation), it is not even 200 million.
I was reading in Economist that third biggest university in the US has a budget of $17 billion a year. It means KAUST probably spends probably far more money than even Harvard and others.
Whenever I tell my friends that Pakistan is VERY poor they start arguing with me! When I mention that UK has spent $ 142 billion (£71) EXTRA on NHS in last couple of years and $42 billion (£21) EXTRA on just one firm RailTrack. They think I am not patriotic and I am insulting Pakistan.
I graduated from NUST last year. I am not sure about the claim that 50% of HEC funding goes to NUST, as lots of NUST-sponsored PhDs are sponsored from NUST’s own funds.
I would also like to mention that it is absolutely true that most of the PhDs sent abroad by HEC are studying in third-rate universities. There are only a couple of universities in the world where you can truly gain good education. But like someone already pointed out, it is very difficult to get admission in these universities. To claim that we have made great advances in education merely because we are sending more people abroad is absurd.
The quality of research performed by these so-called PhDs is also abysmal. Research contributions by Pakistanis in any field is negligible. Most of the papers are plagiarized and of extremely low-quality. And probably the most important point of all is that the attitudes of even those people who do go abroad are still the same. They do not know how to teach or promote a culture of education, and yet are heralded as great intellectuals and teachers by these very same universities. Lots of points raised by Dr Hoodbhoy are valid, and need to be scrutinized in detail.
@Optimist
KAUST plans to spend USD200 billion in the next 15-18 years. There yearly budget is USD 12.5 billion. You are right, it seems laughable when compared to our annual military budget. If you ignore the Blue Area in ISB or so-called “posh areas” (hate that word), Pakistan is not very far from poor African nations. Psychologically we like to compare ourselves with nations like Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Indonesia. All of them are middle income and much richer than us with substantially higher HDI indexes. We are closer to Ghana, Lesotho, Burma, Bhutan and Congo. Even Gabon, a sub-Saharan African country has better HDI than us.
The dirt poor peasantry of Pakistan is invisible to us but crime, drugs and terrorism is the revenge of the unwashed masses. Sain Akhtar Lahori was a disciple of Ustad Daman. I shudder when I read Sain Akhtar’s magnum opus, “Allah Mian Thallah Aa” (Page 6). This, here, is the PPP vote, loyal, long-suffering and oft forgiving.
But we have/will have missiles and other cr*p like Ghauri, Abdali, Ghaznavi, Babar, ( and Akbar, Humayun, Qasim, Soori, Lodhi, Qasoori, Suhrawardy, Bhutto…if we go on like this)
Don’t be unpatriotic. Be Pakistani, love Pakistani.
Support our Missiles ! Adopt a General !
The problem with all these so called ‘higher education’ programs is that they are missing the point. We don’t have a culture of scientific thinking. We have a culture of “Hacking and Circumvention” and we could use that in scientific ventures but we are not teaching kids how to do science so all that ingenuity is going into figuring out how to defraud our neighbours for small sums. All this intelligence capital wasted on fighting over crumbs.
Some guy who puts a motorcycle engine on a bicycle is called a “scientist”… no one knows what the scientific method is.. children are not taught to think critically, logically or skeptically. Most Masters in Science are fake in the sense that most of these people couldn’t do science to save their lives. They don’t know where the cutting edge is. They don’t know how to setup labs..
If we look at the ‘equipment’ that the 19th/20th century european scientists used, it was very crude.. most of the breakthroughs in (even atomic) physics were done on equipment that looks laughable today.. Many of the advanced research is done in pure mathematics..
It is all about formulating the question. And that needs a civilization and a society that has nurtured into the young people this spirit of discovery. Our society spends the first 5 years of our kids’ lives repressing the sh!t out of any originality or curiosity they might have. But we are resilient fvckers.. we still survive that onslaught of stupidity at a monumental scale.
I wonder how many world class mathematicians we have in our midst? I remember being told just to memorize integration functions because the teacher didn’t know exactly what calculus was all about. I failed miserably in Maths because I didn’t get it. I aced maths in North America because the teacher explained to me what the hell was going on .. maybe it’s me.. and I like to go from basic general principles.. but I find that knowing the basics is important.. but our education system doesn’t do any of that.
So, we can forget about scientific thinking. They make lab-technicians in the chemistry-practial period. You know how many moles blah and this many that.. blah.. but can any chemistry graduate actually do any new discoveries based on what they have learned in any of our Institutions? I don’t know.
So, in this environment.. how exactly are our scientists supposed to do “research”? What we need is a cadre of scientist innovating and creating new Intellectual Capital like China is now doing .. our science research is a joke.
We trot out these stupid missiles every time someone mentions it but that is merely application. We could use our long range missiles to send micro sattellites into space but has anyone at supari-co bothered to look into it? NUH-HOOOO !
because you see, we need “technology transfer” from ‘advanced’ nations and until they spoon feed us (good luck on that btw) we’re going to sit on our fat a$$es and devise new ways to bicker about 50 rupees here and 73 rupees there.
@TK
If people are taught properly, then how we would be able to govern and rule them. Thanks god that people like you are not in Pakistan but somewhere outside.
Otherwise it would have been so hard for Governors.
Today Zardari shook hands with MQM and here is what mqm is posting on utube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O7sY-GvzQ0
@ aahmad
You are right. It was added yesterday.
Now this is what you call back stabbers. They keep changing their tones and start playing with different ideas at the same time. One of them has posting messages just above you.
Day-umm! That video was hair-raising. Not the Karachi I remember. Sh!t. I wonder what was going through that guy’s mind who was beating the street light? And the guy who was bending the car door.
@mu_chng : yeah… for all you know I could live next door to you
speaking of science here is a good program on 10 ‘best’ experiments in science. (45min)
http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2008/04/20080402_b_main.asp
@TK
I am a great scientist and THE ANSWER IS 42
Indeed you are. And I would venture to say that you are mostly harmless!
You bet
@TK
Its very very easy to criticize while sitting abroad,,
Why u scared 2 face challenges,,
U know PAK in need of talented people like U
So, why don’t u serve and try to apply your great ideas which u have mentioned in ur above post.. and at the same time u wont be disappointed since, currently HEC is providing very handsome amount of money 4 the foreign people who intend to come back and serve the country/./.
Try 2 do it ,, U’ll enjoy…
@observer etc: been there. done that.
@TK
So, did u get success to make some changes…??
pejamistri:
Dr. Kamal Uddin is physicist and among many retired professors that Dr. Zaidi have in his arsenal to get such kinds of project approved!. He previously worked in QAU.
To add, Dr. Kamal once enraged with the kind of support he had from Zaidi when his RA could not have access to single PC!
_______
I just quote from a very senior person who commented on Zaidi and Atta’s team:
“After destroying public colleges now they have been given task to ruin higher education”
@pejamistri and your supporters
Doesn’t NRO apply to scientists if they makes mistakes? or it is only for politicians and killers to save their billions of dollars.
I wouldn’t vote for trying Dr. Atta after Dr. A.Q. Khan whatsoever.
A lot of miracles are happening in our country:
- NS AZ bhai bhai
- AZ Altaf Kalia bhai bhai
- Shah M. Qureshi – foreign ministry
- Rehman Malik – interior minster
- No news yet about judiciary.
First we should think to try those you were behind:
- 12th May
- 3rd November
- Baluchistan and Fata operations
- NRO beneficiaries
if all above is done then scientists should be tried for mishandling of money and if happens otherwise we are going to make Pakistan an African country where you will find only corrupt/killer politician moving around freely but no scientists.
Therefore be careful to establish such theories.
[...] Who is the real culprit? Posted on April 3, 2008 by pejamistri In a recent episode of Bolta Pakistan , Nusrat Javed and Mushtaq Minhas discussed — albeit in passing remarks [...]
I just published this on my blog http://pejamistri.wordpress.com/ , I think this is very important matter and we need to have an open discussion about it.
The Biggest Joke in History
GEO has stopped offering GEO NEWS through its web link, and if u clikk on the link a message will appear :
” This service is available only in Pakistan ”
can any one watch streaming video of GEO NEWS in pakistan , with hardly 16 to 50 kbps speed .
Shame on cheaters. GEO should just remove the link, there is no need to fool peoples.
@ ajnabi larki
u can still watch geo from this link
mms://stream.wmlivesvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/live_stream_geo_tv_geolive
they just remove the link but old link is working fi9
pejamistri: good as always
actually in wasi zafars’ language its “long arms of education” by Dr. Atta
Comparison of a scientist known all of the world with Wasi Zafar. It seems we only deserve person like Wasi Zafars and Generals like Musharaf not scientists like A. Q. Khan and Atta.
You hold Zardari and Benazir accountable for their corruption and what did come out of that ? NRO ! and that ’s almost same in case of every corrupt politician.
I m not saying Atta is an angel but he has contributed a lot to higher education. I know dozens of students doing PhD and Postdocs abroad in top universities and all of them give its credit to him.
By the way most of them come from lower middle class who might never have dreamed to go abroad for higher education.
@poola
That is where the whole problem lies. Atta-ur-Rahamans of this world will still be able to find people like you defending him, whereas Wasi Zafars of this world will be ditched by their masters (Dictator) at the first opprutunity. Atta-ur-Rahmans of Pakistan are plague to Pakistan , they have always been their in big offices in Islamabad , they are molesting this nation without any fear for years. We need to identify them and bring them to justice. Democratic government is only the first step in that direction , we are learning our way to the future and I can assure you that time is not far off when such people will be hated by the masses much more than corrupt politicians are hated.
Most of you are giving reference to articles by Hoodbouy….
Well He is a geinius…no doubt…a good teacher of no match…can he be e good critic also???
i doubt NO.
You know he was the one among many others in QAU who domonstrated against Atomic blasts from Pakistan. Can a patriotic Pakistani do it? and specially at that time. NS has suffered hardships coz of those blasts mainly. Also you ppl can find such ffolish artilces by him on Atomic Energy Commision of Pakistan. What PAEC ppl have done alongwith Dr. AQ Khan is remerkable. They have suffered alot to get this achievement. You know those scientists worked hard day n night. you can find ppl suffered from radiations. still they did the task what was given to them. Hoodbouy never accepted this. Transparency of maoney in these cases is not possible.I cant tell you ppl the details. SORRY.
Any how, No one is perfect. Dr. Atta is not also. But for God sake admit it that what he has done is what no other in history of Pakistan has done. Coming to Foreign Universities in Pakistan. I am in one of those Universities rite now who were planning to establish its campus in Pakistan. All the homework was completed successfully. Its is law and order of the Country which is a hurdle. Please pray that the situation come to normal ASAP so that we can have these Universities in Paksitan. This will increse the standards of our own Universities. We cannot come to level of MIT at once. We have to travel alot.
@ pejamistri
I m not here to defend Atta-ur-Rehman but what ’s disgusting for me that you have been so brutally harsh to person who is known due to his good work. I m concerned because once I have been regarded respectfully by foreign researchers and scientists because his work and name being a Pakistani. He was the person known to ordinary chemists in Europe because of his work.
I m not very much aware of his mistakes or perhaps blunders if he had made. By the way, I have not read anything against him in Swiss courts or oil for medicine scandal.
What ’s wrong if he stays always in big offices? If you or me have something better to offer and stay in such office we should come forward to offer that.
*** After all he is the man who managed to sent thousands of lower middle class students for PhDs and PostDocs (on merit) — That ’s what forces me to write for him
*** Otherwise I know politicians (Makhdooms, Peers, Gillanis, Bhuttos) who themselves and their forefathers have been in power for years but they never took interest to built schools and colleges in their villages.
examples:
- Go and visit Nodaro you will see what has been done for education of Bhuttoo tribal where from 3 times prime ministers were nominated. it doesn’t mean they wasn’t able to do so but they didn’t want it to happen.
- Go to constituencies of Shah M. Qureshi, Yousaf Raza Gillani, Amin Fahim etc and have a look how many primary/high schools they have established there and what is the situation of those schoools. By the way, it might be interesting for you to watch Aak Din Geo ka saath (Y. R. Gillani) in which he visits a primary school (without roof and desks) in his constituency on his Pardo. I m sure if he had a school better than that he would have taken Sohail Warraich to it.
If Dr. Atta has done corruption, which I don’t believe very much, I would not prefer to hold him account because he, being Chairman HEC, has at least given us thousands of PhDs and PostDoc who will serve our nation in comming years.
His corruption can never be more that price of a Tank or Saray Mahal or future of thousands of children living on thousands of acres of land of your Peers, Makhdooms, Wadaras etc etc.
I will still salute him that he has given us teachers and researchers for our kids of future.
PS: it seems you have something personal with Dr.
Poola: please dont’ put AQ Khan in same category as Dr. Atta.
was99: None of the university in world has ranked high by adopting the policy that you have mentioned. Name any and I buy your argument.
can you please go back in time and look how cambridge or oxford came into existance? how ppl thr worked hard and got knowledge from the top ranked scientists…Muslims…..
If we have good foreign universities in our country, our own universities would face a competition. this will contribute positively.
as I understand the argument was
“Coming to Foreign Universities in Pakistan. I am in one of those Universities rite now who were planning to establish its campus in Pakistan. All the homework was completed successfully. Its is law and order of the Country which is a hurdle. Please pray that the situation come to normal ASAP so that we can have these Universities in Paksitan. This will increse the standards of our own Universities. We cannot come to level of MIT at once. We have to travel alot.”
even in the new economy, china or India or Russia or Brazil etc. where you see this policy?
reality?
1- what is the role of basic sciences in higher education and where do you see this being improved as per your policy?
2- how nation becomes innovative and how nation competes – any idea? take porter as starting point
3- In one of highly regarded beloved Dr Attas university, student at time of admission was told that your math is week so instead of telecommuniation you should study computer science and we are ready to give admission to you. (BTW math merit was 70 for telecom.) – how you are going to change basis for this
more but first listen from you
so does my English
@poola: I appreciate your impassioned response these charges against Dr. Atta, but do you have any numbers or a link to any information that corroborates the claims that “he” has given us “thousands of PhD’s and post docs” ???
I just read somewhere that a HEC PhD costs the nation 1 crore. While a fully stocked Secondary School costs 1.8 crore (The Citizen Foundation numbers here)
So, the question we need to ask is, where does the nation get the most bang for the buck ??
1 secondary school plus 3 years operating expenses or 2 PhD students? The 2 PhD’s wouldn’t be bad at all if they actually returned, and upon return actually had labs to go to to do research (it’s not about writing papers.. it’s about research.. papers are a by product of the peer review process and therefore necessary – but our ‘academics’ seem to think that Europe has advanced magically by putting words in scientific journals)
BTW, I would appreciate it if you or anyone else can actually point to some statistics on exactly what percentage of these students actually return to Pakistan? and once they return, do we really have a network of research institutes which will absorb these people so that they can do research?
BTW, why the hell do we need Dr. Atta if the only good thing he’s done is act as a pilfering intermediary who has facilitated send students abroad? Could a small department of clerks do the same thing? Because it seems to me the grants he’s been giving (TO himself, among others) were neither peer reviewed nor transparently awarded (so much for the ethics of scientific research).
@poola
I have something personal with all such people including Naseem Ashraf, Shamshad Akhtar, Dogarah Chief, Ansar Burfi, Pervez Batts to name a few. And that’s what I am trying to highlight. The professional/ethical corruption is menace to the society. The financial corruption is just one aspect of people like Atta-ur-Rahman , and as Ahmed Bhai put so eloquently and I quote.
You may still disagree with me , I don’t mind
, but I am happy that there are many people who agree with me and who are looking into future. I am sure as we keep learning, time will come when these sacred cows will be touchable by “shoodars” like us.
Also, like they say in punjabi: chori kakh di vi tay lakh di vi..
so he is just as corrupt and guilty (actually more so, because he is an academic not some pistachio-feeding-to-his-horses Wadero) as Asif Zardari or Benazir, Shahukat Aziz, Chori Bradran and and assortment of Pakistani Jurnails looting our nation hand over fist.
Poola:
“being Chairman HEC, has at least given us thousands of PhDs and PostDoc who will serve our nation in comming years.. … I will still salute him that he has given us teachers and researchers for our kids of future..”
Honestly this is the most scaring thing! our kids’ future is now a ? are these going to teach my kid? perhaps I was lucky as part of previous generation!
Do you know what a researcher is? Since Dr. Atta is inclined to the US system I put example from it.
the leading researchers / professors are enterprising as well. many commercializing their research as startup companies with selling near maturity . I can give you as many example as you want:))
In Pakistan the researcher if any will be after no. of publications and thats it. I personally know horrible stories of these publications!
In Germany there is debate for teacher and researcher. sum is that teacher needs not to be a researcher!
research has some focus – whats that in Pakistan. I am waiting to listen
@ahmed
@pejamistri
We should learn to appreciate,., instead of just looking for bad out of new happenings,,
Here, it is not the matter of Dr. Atta,,, ,I am dame sure that whoever had been there in place of Atta even Dr. Qadeer,, you guys would’ve been equally criticizing him like u r doing now…
The prblem is that being PAKi we don’t want to see the change, and whenever we see it we just start criticizing ……
Come on ,, be mature and think logically, don’t expect that withing 8 years of period PAKI scientists can explore the MARS and could be able to see the first live specie in MARS or may be in JUPITER…
Let the things happening…
I don’t know much abt this Nusrat nd Mushtaq. I am watching for the first time this prog,, on PKpolitics.com..
As mr Nusrat said he doesn’t know much about HEC nd its policies,,,but due to this so called Freedom of expression people like anchors of this program consider it is right to say any possible thing &for which they even don’t know… It is because they consider themselves as HEROES of pak,,… I don’t know which kind of heroes they exactly are,,,
I’d say to this prog anchors that be professional and don’t say whatever they want to but do some research first on the topic.
Its a real humiliation of Dr. Ata,, I’d say that these kind of anchors are sitting on TV to convince the others that EVERY THING of the previous GOVT was wrong.. and I am sure they will again be sitting and will be doing the same thing after 5 years with the new GOVT…
and BTW,, I am interested to know abt the people (posting in this discussion) who r criticizing the HEC policies,, that how much they know about the research methodologies and how many are really aware of the research and innovations….
@observer212
The topic is closed , but since you asked I have done post graduation and working in one of the biggest research labs in the world and have supervised more than 5 research projects (Post postdoctoral and Ph. Ds) in one of the prestigious university of the world (UCD Ireland)
@pejamistri
Do u have any thing for me to believe on this:
“Such people are usually not answerable to anyone they usually avoid direct questions from media. In the episode of Bolta Pakistan , the hosts tried hard to get in touch with Dr. Atta-Ur-Rahman however he refused to speak to them. And then later on sent a fax from his subordinate desk and asked them to contact his assistants. ”
Whatever the experience you have got while working 8 years in HIGH-TECH industry in ISB… I can’t buy your argument about Dr. Ata.. Since it is based on only one person’s experiences,,
My company boosts itself as the single largest company in terms of filing patents over the last 15 years and bringing most innovative technologies in the world , I do have some share in those innovations
@pejamistri
As far as i remember you earlier have mentioned somewhere that you have been a journalist and covering supreme court and parliament session during your days of journalism.
Am I right?
If you are related to scientific research then you must be Pervez Hoodbhoy, being world class critic, because he is only person who can go to this extent.
@observer212
…
Watch episode on 2nd April , in which HEC sent a two page fax to these guys from the desk on Sohail Naqvi
BTW you are entitled to have your opinion about anybody , I believe I have explained what I wanted to highlight. You may consider my opinion biased , unreliable or whatever.
@poola
thanks for the compliments .. I wish I were a journalist , your compliments will be useful for me to get a job in Aaj TV 
but at the moment I am very happy with my job.
Please do give me the reference where I said I am a journalist , I have visited SC during my education several times but not for reporting.
I do also wish I were Pervez Hoodbhoy
@pejamistri
Well enough,, so u must be aware of the competitive environment of current world of research but still u r criticizing while HEC has taken some initiatives to the long journey of becoming as competitive as the current worlds is….!!!
Someone needs to take initiative and here is the problem, whoever does it first, becomes the victim of the brutal criticism of u guys…Why don’t u identify the problems in HEC policies directly to Dr. Ata,, Don’t you know communication is most easy now. All you need to write couple emails to HEC chairman and might need to dial from your cell phone..
But this can be happened when you consider HEC as your own institution, as your own country’s institution. Which has just began its journey..
But no ! you want to see everybody to step down from the previous GOVT.. We don’t want to see the sustainability in the good things initiated by the last GOVT.. Because we believe that one man was wrong so everybody must also be wrong. Why we are so rude and not letting HEC to prove the success of its initiated policies..??
There might be some defects in policy but everything couldn’t be perfect..
@ pejamistri
I appreciate first but would suggest to avoid second.
I liked him until I didn’t hear him on capital talk.
For me he is another Shah Mahmood Qureshi but scientist one.
@pejamistri
Its Impressive. May I know abt ur company.??.
and BTW we need people like u in PK..
Do something for country at the same time as u r doing with the Co.
@observer212
You can only satisfy pejamistri and Pervez Hoodbhoy and other such critics by putting them in the seat of chairman HEC. There is no other way whatsoever.
They would keep on criticizing even if you get a chairman HEC order with required genome to reflect all the needed functions.
@poola
I agreed
@observer212
…
Your suggestion is good. But that is based on the assumption that I believe “one man is wrong so everybody must be wrong” , whereas it is opposite , everybody IS wrong. As I said dictator needs people like Atta-ur-Rahman it is not vice versa.
As far as suggestion to correct the HEC are concerned I think the Hoodbhoy’s article had certain suggestions in it , and there are several others even on this forum. As the head of the organization it is job of Dr. Atta to heed to these suggestions, not the other people to call him and give him suggestions. I have never heard someone calling Bill Gates to give him suggestions how to make Microsoft a better company
Lets agree to disagree. You keep your high opinion about whoever you think is better.
@pejamistri
Bill gates doesn’t need any suggestion,,, since whatever he needs he could buy it,,
Don’t compare Dr. Ata with Bill gates and nor HEC to Microsoft… Its no good.
Do read HEC people also in response to Dr, Hoodbhoy of QAU.. Don’t read newspaper just to see what you want to see. Don’t be so ignorant.
It seems you have the right to make one’s character bad in front of people who are reading these posts but you don’t feel your responsibility to make things correct instead just to see things are going wrong and making criticism while sitting on your computer desk. Problem lies some where here not in HEC policies.. we just need to look around us…
BTW how do u add smileys in your posts..??
A smiley appears when you type “:” and “)” together “:)”
no double quotes
Thnx
and
@Observer121: yaar who are you to invite people to go to Pakistan? Do you work with HEC? Are you an academic doing research with them?
I really hope you’re not a researcher associated with HEC because that would ironically prove our point. I suspect you are one of those Intelligence agency loiterers who have a tendency to try to defend the heinous and indefensible actions of the previous govt. just to look good in front of ur bosses.
Just a hunch.
@TK
Pardon me…!!
I never showed my sympathy to any of the political happening of the last GOVT but I did show my best before you guys,, to stop your mouth to talk rubbish about Dr. ata..
U might dis-agree with the policies but don’t throw dirt to one’s character..
Its immature attitude..
BTW I love to work for PAK,, and because you guys don’t want it then it doesn’t mean everybody should follow your foot steps..
There are those people who just want to sit in their couches and always trying to get the BAD things from the happenings and spreading disappointments.
Don’t see the world with your eyes only..
And don’t become emotional,, I just tried to say truth and u blamed me of defending the whole policies of the last GOVT. This attitude making it clear that you guys are criticizing just to show that EVERY THING from last GOVT was wrong.. and thats why you are disgracing Dr. Ata….and as I already said it that the matter is not belong only to Dr. ATA whoever had been the chairman of HEC you people would’ve been doing the same thing with him/her..The reason is quite clear we always want to pulling the leg of the people who dare to do the things FIRST,..
Plz try to learn appreciate…
Dr. Ataur Rehman may be a good researcher but he has fuqqed over higher education in this country. Read Hoodbhoy.
Another fiasco that has not been mentioned is that of Dr. Shahid Hussain Bokhari (no relation to me) of UET Lahore. He was one of the most highly cited authors (the only one?) on the ISI citation list. He was made to quit because he disagreed with the HEC.
Read this article and then check the interacts.
Thanks God Dr. Shahid Hussain is not HEC chairman,,
I can imagine what people would be thinking about him today in this blog…..
@mbokhari
that is something depressing , a person with 25 years affiliation left the institution and nothing happened. No media reported this. Let me tell you when I first wrote comment in this thread against Atta-ur-Rahman I was really worried that people might think that I am very biased, as my comments were based on my experience in Pakistan when I was unfortunate to work with this cult and had few interactions with Atta-ur-Rahman and let me tell you I was extremely disappointed with this guy’s thinking and approach. I resigned from a lucrative post even before 12th October 1999 (in Feb 1999) , because I was so much disappointed by the cheap thinking and tactics of these so-called technocrats. I left the government job and joined a private company and then never looked back into this cult.
So when I was posting this remark against Dr. Atta it were primarily based on my own experience and understanding of Atta-ur-Rahman’s working. I was afraid that I may have been harsh in judging this cult.
But thank you very much for posting this information , and I must say I am happy that my assessment of this cult was not wrong.
@observer212
your logical arguments are not very sound. As they call it in logic you are committing “poisoning the well” fallacy. I hope you just don’t keep on alleging me “leg puller” and “unappreciative” and so on. BTW I wish could pull the legs of few people in Pakistan
“Honest arrogance is better than false humility.” So sad to read but very true!!
observer212: You people like Ahmed Mukhtar, sohail naqvi or junaid zaidi or ikram sheikh type people to be chairman if not atta?
From foreign faculty to tenure track, overseas scholarship to indigenous phd, from modernizing institutes to university charter….
I am here to response anything you want
@pejamistri on April 4th, 2008 7:40 am
Let me tell you when I first wrote comment in this thread against Atta-ur-Rahman I was really worried that people might think that I am very biased, as my comments were based on my experience in Pakistan when I was unfortunate to work with this cult and had few interactions with Atta-ur-Rahman and let me tell you I was extremely disappointed with this guy’s thinking and approach. I resigned from a lucrative post even before 12th October 1999 (in Feb 1999) , because I was so much disappointed by the cheap thinking and tactics of these so-called technocrats. I left the government job and joined a private company and then never looked back into this cult.
——————————————————————————————————
If you had written this in the very beginning, people might have not wasted their time in arguing with you.
@poola
I said this in the very beginning
Sorry if you wasted your time. Do always read the complete message in future so that you don’t waste your time again
@pejamistri
I alway read complete message but in this message you didn’t mention your bitter experience due which you had to resign.
May I ask you a question if you don’t mind:
Being a practical scientist and member of Dr. Atta ’s team, were you used to write in political discussions at same frequency you do now a days?
@poola
I do enjoy them.
Well I did not have a bitter experience at all , and I did not resign because of that experience. Sorry if you are mislead to believe this. Unfortunately I was too young at that time to resign like Dr. Shahid Hussain , I just resigned because I though I am misfit. Well if you are in anyway associated with this cult we can talk off-line and I can provide you the information when I resigned and whom I worked with , and you can check with this cult that how disapponted they were to loose me.
BTW I am on holidays these days
On the final note , let me say that it is getting very much personal now , my whole argument is given in the blog , I sincerely believe that professionaly and ethically corrupt people (in which I consider Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman as typical example in Pakistan) , are the worst people who cause irreparable damage to Pakistan whereas a corrupt politician is usually benign when compared with these people.
You may still disagree with it.
thanks
P.S. I hope no more discussion is required on this topic. Anybody who is interested in my previous experience can contact me via my blog. It will be good to protect my privacy. Specially if the people related to this cult are really interested to know who am I?
@pejamistri: I can see how anyone with integrity would be disgusted with the dirty tactics used by these so called ‘technocrats’ who have been a$$-raping pakistan for decades.
I don’t need to work with Atta and the gang to know these people are fraudsters. 52 lakhs for Quranic Reserach? Millions for VdG generator?
How many libraries could we have opened with this money that basically went to a bunch of kleptocrats? How many primary, secondary schools could have have opened?
And then we have FOOLS who can’t comprehend a sentence let alone put a proper one together who go on for pages yapping about ‘promoting positive aspects of X and Y’ . My advice: Stop trying to polish this TURD you have made Pakistan into. The very first step on the way to recovery is to accept and recognize that Pakistan is a little TURD now. You can try and spit polish it if you want, but trust me, it’s not gonna work.
In case a google search is way too technical a thing to even try:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Polishing a turd
@TK
Polishing a turd. excellent description.
Agreed
BTW I came to know only yesterday about 52 lakhs for quarnic research and 13 lakh for writing a definition of “quantum computation” , perhaps a cut and paste from some article.
I still would like to say,, criticizing is the most easiest thing ..
But to do something real is the other thing.
Why don’t u guys try to do, some realistically instead of always arguing.
It seems you guys are sitting here just to say your ONE LINE agenda and not in a mood to listen others…
The world and PAK is not like back 1990s…
Its 2008 , wake up and do something…
If I m saying do something,, don’t take it personally because you are doing great already in your respective fields.
I meant was to do somethings for policy changes which you’ve mentioned all the way frm up to down in this blog…
Observer212, I think your criticisms could be applied to your comments as well.
let me tell you a little secret bro. It will serve ye well throughout ur life.
To solve a problem, you must first realize there _is_ a problem.
Then you brainstorm, and then a solution can be worked out. So, the useless part of this exchange and criticism has been the blind and unreasonable defence offered by HEC defenders who want to do it not based on merit but just based on some stories they might have read in a newspaper written by some fake lifafa journalist.
Despite all the hooing and hawing.. you were not able to provide any numbers on the “thousands of PHd’s ” that you claimed Atta had made possible for Pakistan. So I am going to assume you were talking out of your Hat.. until of course you provide some numbers to back your defence for the sake of defending someone.
Just by repeating “there isn’t a problem.. there isn’t a problem.. there isn’t a problem…” ad infinitum, the problems won’t go away. India isn’t advanced because indians say “positive things” (though that is also true) about India.. they’re advanced because they actually spent their money on institutions likt IIT etc. They didn’t allow fuQQing beardo’s to take over their universities and disrupt the education process in the name of Islam.
And now we have HEC doing this stuff which should bother you, despite the fact that Atta may be an angel personally. Look at what the guy is doing. If a guy is pissing in the mosque, you can’t convince me he’s not crazy or doing something wrong, just because he’s wearing a huge turban (that’s the kind of argument you put forward)
be real,, the projects are still going on.
It could be a miracle if u see the 1000s of PHDs before the projects are finished….
Be patience.. our Paki nation is so impatience ,, huh!!
Keep your eyes open, I am just saying that due to some wrongs you can’t consider a whole personality and characters and even his qualifications fake and useless.
Do you think IITs become prominent in india just at a glance?? Theres a whole period of struggle, mistakes and learnings.. Which you guys don’t let pak to do…and it can never be done if the things are going as they are going now…
So you are repeating “there is a problem, there is a problem, there’s a prob.. nd so on……. keep going well done..
BTW wht do u mean by “fake lifafa journalist” ???plz elaborate a little..
You see my point is that people always look for the dark side of the picture… and they never ever want to see the positive part of it…
When you want to believe on a news which you like most you don’t care who is delivering that one….
I’ll take it as Biased…
and I am afraid TK as inclining to become extremist abt his or may be her (cuz I don’t find his gender in blog) opinions…….
And i appreciate that you raised the point of:
———————————————————–
To solve a problem, you must first realize there _is_ a problem.
Then you brainstorm, and then a solution can be worked out.
BTW I m HE…
@212 : Man you should really try to pick up chicks in different places,, not in a pakistani politics forum… It’s a sausage fest here bro.
Also, I didn’t say I didn’t believe you, I just said what is your source for the claim that you made.. Obviously you didn’t make that “thousands and thousands” thing up, I’m just saying.. tell us how you got that information? from a book? from the library? from the HEC website that never loads (and god knows how many millions of hard earned money was spent on that stupid site.. it looks like a 7 year old retarded kid developmed that site).
You see ,,,now you seem like a positive critic..
Thats true the HEC website is not as developed as it should be….. and that reflects they didn’t pay much attention to it.. which is their mistake.. we can send them a critic email to upgrade it.., in a positive hope that it will be done soon..
But if we make decision due to some bad experiences in past then I am afraid we don’t have any future at all…
But if instead of this we are going to compare every PAK things wid other countries then tell me where we are going…>??? today ur and others brutal criticism can make a guy (Dr Ata) to step down from its current position but I am sure you won’t be satisfied with the other one too… and will try to stepping other one down as well.. and the story will continue…
We are going nowhere my dear…. . ….
are you going to answer where you got the 1000’s of PHds number? Or should we just assume you made that up?
criticism needs to continue until honest people are there who do their job. Or these counterproductive nepotistics useless “research institutes” be dissolved.
btw, I have complete faith that you have NO answer to the question, so this discussion is effectively over.
@observer212
Dr. Atta has three jobs, he is enjoyed enough power.
“Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely”
I never raised question of this 1000s numbers,.
But I do know that more than 500 students are working in european universities, for their PhDs….. Almost 100s are working for their half part of phds in USA, UK and europe and Australia,,,,
About 1500 students in PAK are working for their indigenous PhDs….
Don’t ask me about the source of the exact number because I am not the HEC employee….
As I told you,, if you have a curious mind you can ask your every question to the direct authority by three different ways,,, shld I tell U those ways,, don’t say yes otherwise,, nothing I’ll tell U how…
Don’t make lame excuse of NOT RESPONDING,, As i told you do something to make change,, otherwise,, keep try to close the discussion..
Its a good program with good hosts but some time it looks like they r either Drunk or way too much Stupid…
Total waste of time , first 7 minutes….
In used to be a big fan of NJ but i am surprised to see his ignorant personality on the issue of Education and Dr. Atta. Before any one picks on Dr. Atta, I would ask him to go and do some research on his personal and academic background. He belongs to a rich and intelligent family and certainly don’t need any crap from guys like NJ. Yes he was part of a dictator’s Govt but we should have at least some courtesy to praise some one who has done such good things for education in Pakistan. No one is perfect and certainly Dr. Atta is not. But you need to benchmark his performance to the last 60 years of Education Ministers and only then u can pick on him and that is if u find some thing on him.
NJ has a die hard appetite of negativity and conspiracies…..
so….chill out…
COMSATS rector Dr Junaid Zaidi and Dr Atta ur Rehman had employed and awarded scholarships in ciit to sons of generals, hihg ranking army officer, bureaucrats and their friends n relatives .Dr zaidi own son got inducted in ciit and was awarded phd scholarship in a lateral way and institutional coverage was provided in this white collar crime for instance scholarship committee includes people like his immediate relatives and friends.Also he opened a campus in attock to please Dr Ata ( from attock ) and then PM (shuakat aziz) + chaudary bros…..he used the same modus operandi now by decalring political campuses in vehari,multan and larkana now to attract the attention of PM and Mr Asif Zardari.
These bureaucrats are no sincere to any government and they just want to make some money and abuse power and look for politicians and generals who can join hands with them in looting the country……
well if takes looting in the garb of service to nation…….we call it ‘pakistan first’
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