Live with Talat - 1 April 2008
Federal Law Minister Farooq Naik in fresh episode of Live with Talat.
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Pakistan Politics |
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Pakistan Politics |
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Federal Law Minister Farooq Naik in fresh episode of Live with Talat.
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good class taken by talat…
I am bored, not yet impatient but still bored nothing new coming up. Well politics is not a movie either, so lets wait in see.
Kia Jalaibiyaan tali hain is Khal Naek ne.
I thought it was Malik Qayyum up there. Sigh. Nothing changes.
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
I can see how Zardari spent so much time behind bars.
hummm.subsitute of Wasi Zafar ..the one and only Law MInster …
he is too talkative…..
he made Talat mad…..
i can see on Talat s face ..he was getting irritated by irrelivant answers by newly appointed Law minister ….
Sawal Gandum…jawab channa …
but thats good..that media ppl are fixing them from day one …
as in persion they say ..
Gurba Khushtan Roz e Awal….Billi pehlay hi din mar deni chahiyee…
i am taking back my comments which i wrote on the last episode of Live with Talat…he is fixing everyone across the baord …which is really fine….
good efforts by Talat …
but he really need to make an effort to put a stop to Mr Naik and say something…..
Mr Naik is also full of himself….
media needs to fix him ….
good luck to every media person …
they all have to tolerate Mr Naik now..with long answers ..irrelivant answers…..
good program.
I hope with full belief that honorable judges will be restored within 30 days …In Shaha Allah….
we all should give them 20 days to see what they are doing… then put pressure in the last 10 days if we see there is some problem.
MUSH ABB TU JAAN CHOOR DA…. ABB TU JAAN CHOOR DA….
This guy is more like Khushbakht Shujaat. Both go in circles. Sawal Gandum Jawab Channa.
I don’t know why Talat didn’t confront him when he was talking about modalities for the restoration of judges. PPP should get itself together if they want to survive.
mujhe yeh law minister pasand nahi aya, the law minister should be aitzaaz ahsan. after he will selected as a member of parliament then he should replace existing one
Farook naik was more of a mirasi praising Asif zardari….and Talat was waiting most of the time for him to come on point! And in the first quarter of program he was not able to respond talat’s question because NRO is undefendable.
But, later on he really confronted Talat very well and made Talat to rethink on his perceptions.
i think when the judiciary will b restored they shud cancel NRO otherwise their credibility will b in doubt
. and all the cases shud b proceeded through proper procedure and if somebody is innocent he will b freed by court. bcoz getting democracy on the basis of NRO is setting very bad example……Law shud b equal for evry citizen
@Fahim,
i dont think ,he made Talat convinced..
he said i hope ur mind wud have clear now…
Talat replied very clearly…No …i am not clear at it yet..but programme time is runing short ….
and u can see on his face that he was not at all convinced with what mr.naik was insisting with long narratives….
if he wud be less talki more thoughtful…
that wud be nice …
he wants to prove his points with so many words…
he failed to do so …
Talat Hussain justifiably grilled this evil lawyer and his Don.
Again 10/10 for Talat.
Guys now lets stop being rebel. Naek is just a panicky guy who is nervous when talking. otherwise lets wait for time, give them some gap and see what they do! Talat’s got good person to handle in this prog.
i dont know how long PML-N will be able to work with these crooks and opportunists.
new law minister is super cunning and not an idiot like wasi zafar…
typical lawyer and a politician on top of that i.e karela aur neem charha
Well PML-N might not be able to work with these crooks, but then on the same token PML-N will be getting more support in future. All they have to do is use these programs and stance of PPP in next election campaign.
What @sss holes these politicians are. They just drag on and onnnnnnnnnnn and onnnnnnnnnnnn instead of answering the question.
Talat asked a simple question: What would the committees inform the parliament that they don’t know already.
and this fellow starts off with ’sab say pehlay to muhtarma shaheed hooeen , phir ,, blah blah ……………………………………………. blah …………………………………………………… blah ……………………………………… blah ………………………………………………………
and bores the heck out of the viewer instead of getting straight to the point. These @rses should be told not to waste the show’s limited time.
@ayubi
The day you learn to get furstrated like this when you see a dictator and his military cronies giving lectures on democracy and wasting the limited time of nation. You will understand why the politicians do blah and blah and blah … do hear the PM question hour from british house of commons, you will know why all the politicians do blah and blah when they don’t have ready answer available for the question. The reason the y are not dictators and the word of thier mouth is not the law :).
Disclaimer though.. I don’t think Farooq Naik represents the best lot of politicians and he was not very much convincing. But since you mentioned all the politicians so my remarks do apply to your comment.
Talat found his match
I wish Mr. Talat would watch how the other interviewers act.
He is just sawal barai sawal. Has fixed ideas in his mind that he keeps harping over. He continuously tries to play nura kushti with his guests.
Does not understand what role he needs to play. His job is to find the opinions of his guests not keep harping on his opinions. Let the viewers decide if the answer is viable and acceptable. Go to another expert for a different point of view.
He is not acting like the most important news personality at Aaaj.
@ayubi
The day you learn to get furstrated like this when you see a dictator and his military cronies giving lectures on democracy and wasting the limited time of nation.
Dear pejamistri.
News flash for you: i already HATE dictators. The reason i used the word politician there was NOT because i support dictators but because THANKFULLY democracy is restored.
However, it does not mean that we should now bow down and prostrate to people like Naek and say: Sir you are my Lord and i surrender my rights to criticise you.
In fact the essence of democracy is the right to voice any of your concern.
Hope you understand.
Thanks
@ayubi
My apologies.. your extreme furstration (which I usually see in dictator’s apologists) and choice of words (using generic term politicians) made me thinking wrong. Sorry about that.
I agree they (politicians) must be criticised and be kept in check.
Regards
you will know why all the politicians do blah and blah when they don’t have ready answer available for the question. The reason the y are not dictators and the word of thier mouth is not the law
Actually there is a difference between not committing to something and just wasting your time. In this case he was boring the heck out of me by just taking soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long to get to the point - a point that Talat himself pointed out.
So be assured that by criticising politicians, when they sidetrack the issue, i am NOT taking sides with dictators.
by the way the video is streaming v slow today. Are others experiencing it the same way?
pejamistri:
Not to worry mate - u r right. My words did have the potential of being mistaken.
Sorry for a rather strong response from my end too.
@Benai
May be you are right. But, I believe he made it very clear on talat that how easy it is in pakistan to make a fake case, and they both agreed that the most easiest thing to do in Pakistan is to taint some one.
The thing that cannot be defended was NRO. Despite, the constant and henious villification, torture and years of imprisonment without even being charged, the normal rules must be followed.
I don’t know how many of you know that, uptil the last days of Ghulam Ishaq Khan, any “faujdari” case in Pakistan was null and void if not decided in 2 years, that was law of the land. That law was taylored to persecute anti establishment parties (esp. PPP).
First things first - NRO was not the first time when cases were withdrawn. Under General Musharraf, Sharif brothers were pardoned from their “acquittal” - yes acquittal not acquisition - not only in hijacking case but also from helicopter case (which was a corruption case). The cases withdrawn under NRO were their since last 12-15 years and not even a single case got proven. So no acquittal.
It pisses me off when people in Pakistani media makes so much fuss about the cases on PPP but totally ignore why and how an acquitted was given pardon. Again remember, it is acquittal on one hand and acquisition on the other.
Also, speculative question about Richard Boucher - well even if Boucher was involved remember who took our acquitted prisoners to Jeddah. We all know of Saudis (a foreign intruder as well and nawaz confesses it), and supposedly Bill Clinton. I am not suggesting if one was right or wrong. Just that media targets PPP for its biases, convenience or vested interest and so is the tendency of urban pakistanis who can’t tolerate a party that commands mandate of 3 times more people than PML-N.
PPP can not restore Ch. Iftikhar and other judges, thats why they made a Committee because they are part of Musharaf due NRO.
@ Pakistanthinks
1- What is basis of ur claim that PPP has ”mandate of 3 times more people than PML-N” ?? can u please provide statistics from election commission????, however if this is the ratio of PPP and PMLN voters in your family, then it makes sense ( ONLY then), dont be offended, it is just a question of statistics.
2- Do you know the details of Helicopter case?? do u know wat was the case? where was the eharing and proceeeding of this case? , just to keep you updated , i have to copy/paste the details form another post:
Helicopter case is nothing more than a joke.As already explained ,case hearing was inside Attack fort by a special court and not in High/Supreme court.
allegation was that this helicopter was not shown in assets of nawaz sharif when filing tax returns of 1996 (last tax returns before 1997 elections).
The helicopter, was first chartered for three months from the Javaid Aviations by PML for the election campaign of 1993 when nawaz Sharif ws NOT in power(the time when BB used Edhi ambulance helicopter for election campaign).It was purchased by Shaikh Abdur Rehman of Qatar in October 1993, and was grounded soon after the PPP came to power.
It remained grounded for two-and-a-half years on different pretexts until the Supreme Court ordered in 1996 that it should be registered and allowed to fly.
Customs authorities kept issuing notices to
the Javaid Aviations after the helicopter was grounded. Customs duty for the helicopter was paid by Nawaz Sharif, and PML spent Rs615,000 as operational costs.
The helicopter was registered in the name of Nawaz Sharif in November 1996 after the SC order. It could not have been shown
in the tax returns of 1996 as it was not registered in the name of Nawaz Sharif by June 30.Before June 1997,the helicopter crashed.
So please try to spend some time in finding the FACTS , it will help to make your argument credible and more reasonable. Thanks
My sympathies for poor helicopter. Poor thing had to go through so many things. May be emotional baggage was too much to carry so it crashed. chh chh chh..:)
guys DON’T forget to smile sometimes..
Sorry to say, but Mr minister just roaming around.wandering here and there.
Rightly said by someone
“Sawal gandum Jawab Channa”
aur soany per suhaga, he wants to prolong his stories.
He might be right somewhere , but for heaven sake don’t try to favor a person so ridiculously .
Rehman Malik is the one of the most mazloom persons of the world?
For heaven sake,For heaven sake,For heaven sake….
Guys this is nothing…Given Talat’s intrusive style where he tries to control the content of the answers —Farood Naik handled it pretty well….If you want to see grilling and irrelevant answer….watch Talat’s program before this one…where he grilled a SENIOR leader…PML (N) leader …Tehmina Daultant…her question were easy..but yet she could not make sense….I am not surprised…”Jiaisa NS waisee us ke chailee”…..
@ GM
Please stop defending NS….do you really believe they made all this money fairly….we have not forgotten the corruption done in Ittefaq foundries dealings in 80s and 90s..and how Steel Mill (a national asset) was dealt a big blow due to Ittefaq foundries’ corrupt practices……so pleaseee stop defending NS/SS.
In an effort of reconciliation and for Pakistan…we are ready to move forward….but mutwals and piyalas has to bury their grudge against PPP…again I would ask for reconciliation……PML (N) is part of this government and they are responsible for all its acts…do not try to “eat your cake and have it too”……
Its beginning to sound like the PPP has no intention of restoring the judiciary.
that guest is one-off idiot in my opinion. think many might agree with this..
he was trying to divert the topics by brining ridiculously irrelevant events/topics.
what a wanker..
@ pakistanthinks
I think you want to say “convicted” rather than “acquitted”….
@ PAF123
Please find some logic or reason to support your comments, just saying ‘please stop doing this or that” means nothing. may be u want to say that please dont base ur comments on facts and be like PAF123 and just beleive the baseless propaganda stores.
If you haev any pint, then reply to both the points raised above.
Now for Ittefaq foundry, again you have based your comment on baseless story,
i am doing copy/paste of comment from other post and i will wait if you have any FACTS to deny this.
Sharif family did not enter the buiness circles after getting in to govt. their business started before 1939. Thy were on of suppliers in world war II in 1939. They were a major supplier for paksitan army equipment etc in 1965.
there factories were nationalised in bhutto era in 1970s but within Bhutto govt. they again raised 6 business units (factories).
Nawaz sharif’’s first entry in to power circles was in 1982 as finance minister punjab.
After that time they NEVER had any loans from GOVT. BANKS (its hard to beleiv in this propaganda world but its true). after that all their loans are from private banking sectors.
Another unbelievable fact is that ITTEFAQ FOUNDRY, one of theri major buiness units was shut down in 1990 following some acts of Benazir govt to cut their raw materials supply and this foundry cud never be run again, Yes its a truth.
In 1990, Ittefaq group cnsisting of 7 fmailies) was split and same was true for buiness units.
In first tenure as prime minister NO business unit was raised by shariF family.
When they were in opposition in BBs 2nd term , some new industrial units ( Hudaibiya engineeirng, hudaibiya paper mills, 2 sugar mills) were raised. All loans were from private banks an ddont froget they wer not in power that time.
becos of govt pressure, they were not able to run all unit successfully except the sugar mills.
when nawaz sharif came in to power 2 nd time, in his first speech, he by himself imposed a conflict of interests law and committd not to have any new buiness set up untill he is in power and he fulfilled his committment. also becos of shut down of Iteaq foundry in 1990, interest for the loans for this unit had been piling and nawaz sharif by himslef at the time of his first speech pledged all such untis plus to have the remaing amount of laons paid.
Nawaz sharif is not an angel, we r all humans but please , as educated people, we should try to find FACTS before assessing our leaders.
@ GM
According to your FACTS….NS should have been bankrupt by now…pennyless….no business….political vicimization and good business practices..yet they living the life of princess/kings…since you claim to be the depository of FACTS for NS, would you please explain to this forum…..how is he sustaining this life style….Pls. do not tell us “Allah Ka Karam Hai”……
It is being reported in Urdu media that PPP theory of restoring judiciary is:
PPP wants to keep Doogar as CJ. Judiciary will be restored for a month only and then a law will be passed in NA to cut down the term of CJ of Pakistan to 3 years. This way CJ Iftikhar would be forced to retire on June 4th.
I”m not sure if N will support this idea… but PPP has got nod from Mush on this theory. PPP is double-crossing the entire nation.
http://www.khabrain.com/naiaakhbar/02-04-08/e-paper/front_page.htm
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/apr2008-daily/02-04-2008/main3.htm
@paf123
Laggay raho, naal rehri laa lo CHOORAN wali
@ PAF123
you really beleive that PPP team members are better than PMLN members? r u serious?
Please list your beloved PPP leaders who are better than
Khawja Asif, Saad Rafique, Ahsan Iqbal , Javed Hashmi, ch Nisar, Ishaq Dar, Shahbaz sharif .
and then let the people comment on your judgement.
I am not saying that we should not go for reconciliation, BUT, it does not mean that histrocial facts and realities hould be distorted.
Fact is
- PPP has gradually been kicked off by the urban and educated people as shown by all previous elections. Remember these are people who do not vote based on tribe or like Haari of some Feudal and ONLY these peole represent IDEOLOGICAL members of a political party. PPP leadership should think over it and find the reasons.
- Previously most of the PPP guyes used to abuse Zia regime and any leader associated wththat system for everything . Unfortunately things have changed totally, and PPP could find a PM who was member of Zia Majlis e shooora. Even candidates of PM like Shah mahmood Qureshi ( also PPP punjba president) had been associated with Zia regime.
So now after going through intelectual and ideological purge and drain process, PPP is forced to hire such people like sherry rehman , babar awan , farooq Naik etc.
Please try to understand that your Jieyalism is not going to help PPP out of these problems, It might sweeep some ethinical based Sinshi votes of rural areas but overall for future planning, Logic and reasong and having clear stance on all issues is a key to get back to political arena of urban and educated people.
it was a nice pprogram but mr. minister mostly sounded like a laughing stock where on the very first question abt committees he started bibi sahiba ki shahadat. so ridiculous i’ll quote my fellow member
“SAWAL GANDUM JAWAB CHANNA”
he has promised Talat sahab that wait 4 30 days lets see what will happen thereafter. i was very hopeful that judges will b restored but after seeing such an idiot like him i’m doubtful like Talat sir. Allah he khair karay
btw admin plz upload 2days special edition of Live wid Talat wid shoaib akhtar a worth seeing show
thanx
@ Paf123
Sharif family was already among the richest families in Pakistan more than a decade before NS entered politics. In 1965 alone, they were the largest steel producers in Pakistan and Pakistan army itself was among the list of their clients..
Being rich is not a crime, how you get there could be an issue. And definitely there are many issues with Zardari just like Musharraf.
@ PAF123
I think you should seriously consider “econfused’s” suggestion…
and best of luck for that…
Farood Naik!!!! If he is a defense, PPP need no enemy.
I just remember one of the years in mid 90s when both NS and BB submitted income tax around 2000-4000. Even I paid more in that year:)
Hamayun Akhtar did same and so many others as well. Though technically, they can do this stunt but I feel politicians need to change this culture as well.
Comparing how people become rich in the US and other economies, I guess no one in Pakistan comes clean. But anyways this is anecdotal and not empirically proved.
Talat is simply great host!
@ahmed bhai
As the tax is concerned, there are loopholes for businesses everywhere. You can even pull that of in western countries. The only people who pay true tax are salaried employees, as thats deduction at source.
From Cowasjee Column March 23,08
“Almost seven years ago, Ayaz Amir had posed the following rhetorical questions: ‘Does any newspaper-reading man in Pakistan doubt Benazir’s and Asif’s guilt? Does anyone think they got no commission from the Swiss firm, SGS-Cotecna? Does anyone doubt the financial acumen of the then ruling couple who turned Islamabad into an open auction mart where every deal, no matter how outrageous, was on offer provided the right palms were greased?’ The Sharifs’ notions of government were intensely private: which is to say, have your own man at every key post …
In the person of Justice Qayyum at the Lahore High Court they had the closest thing they could get to a personal judge. Division of family assets, balancing of huge bank loans against dummy collateral, tightening the noose around Asif Zardari and Benazir …’
“And Amir concluded: ‘The common factor between both parties is gangsterism and corruption. Shahbaz Sharif resembled nothing so much as a Mafioso don. What does Asif Zardari look like? In any Godfather sequel he can easily get a part. As for moneymaking it is hard to figure out who beat whom: the PPP leadership or the Muslim League? My own guess is the Sharifs were professionals: subtle about their money. Zardari left a trail, which goes all the way to Rockwood, French submarines …’”
Anyone who think NS and AZ are clean is living in fools paradise.
Whatever you do, please don’t repond by:
1. You are Mush Lover..and Mush did this and that..
2. You worship Altaf Hussein and he is a terrorist…
3. Cowasje is Kafir.. Note he is quoting Ayaz Amir here who is PMLN MNA or MPA
Cowasjee Feb 24, 2008
”
Now a word for the likeable born-again fortunate Mian of Lahore (does he still hanker after the title ‘amir-ul-momineen’?) His years of living a luxurious life in the Holy Land may have taught him something and with his new handsome head of hair maybe has come a new form of wisdom. He is all for restoring the judiciary – that is bringing back the removed judges who took their oath under Musharraf’s PCO of 2000 and removing those newly appointed under Musharraf’s PCO of 2007.
In his zeal to bring in an ‘independent judiciary’ has he forgotten how in 1997 he suggested to Gohar Ayub that the then Chief Justice of Pakistan, Sajjad Ali Shah, be arrested and imprisoned? Has he forgotten how later that year, he had his own Supreme Court raided by his party goons because CJ Shah had brought a contempt case against him?
The Mian’s record as to governance and corruption is not shining (perhaps marginally less dismal than that of Asif Zardari). Do he and his brother Shahbaz Sharif remember how they borrowed money for their Hudabiya Paper Mills from an investment fund in England? In their arrogance they had signed a loan agreement which was governed by English law. When the Al Towfeek Company asked for its money back, the Mians procrastinated and employed the usual delaying tactics as applied in their native land.
Al Towkfeek went to court in London in 1998 and the order of a master (the masters of the various divisions of the high court deal with routine matters without a judge having to be bothered) was served upon the Mians of Lahore asking them to pay up. They filed an application against the order, this was set aside by a high court judge, the laws of England prevailed and without any further hesitation (total time involved some 18 months) the lenders’ claim was satisfied. Millions of dollars were repaid by the Sharif family, but extraordinarily they asked, and the lenders and the court agreed, that the mode and manner of repayment of the millions of dollars not be disclosed. Apparently, a ‘friend’ obliged with the repayment.
The point here is — have the brothers learnt a lesson from English law? Have they learnt that the law must apply if there is to be justice, fair play and equity. They could easily have been on the other end – they could have been the lenders.
If Nawaz is all out to restore whatever judiciary we did have he will need to also do a lot of reforming if we are to get anywhere near democratic standards of an independent and free judiciary. European and American judges set themselves quite different standards from our judges because the leadership of the country expects it of them. Our judges are so browbeaten and insecure, as matters stand, that it would not be fair to expect such standards of them. “
@rashid
Yes, we cannot get angels. You think Cowasje himself is a clean personality? He is the most pessimist person you can ever find. Go check his history also.
@econfused.
There is no point arguing. You think someone is an angel or not. Since no one can be angel, everyone else is same.
I think if someone is corrupt or not. You dont have have to be an angel in order no to be corrupt. There is a subtle difference.
Please educate yourself. Cowasjee is talking about facts, and you are saying he is pessimist. So we should not listen to pessimist people even if they are telling the truth..
What about Ayaz, is he atheist, pessimist, or some other label ?
@rashid
What I am saying, people have spoken by using their power of vote. Facts described by Cowasjee are not new. Musharraf said boh NS and BB are corrupt and security risk. Knowing full well, people has stil given a chance. You want to whine about it, keep on.
I and many others, who believe in democracy, will wait before we start critiszing.
Just tell me one thing? do you have to wait for Cowasjee for these facts? Did he made up those facts on Feb 24th?
People have thrown out PML-Q in somewhat fair election. Same thing will and should happen to PPP and PML-N in next election. That is democratic way, we do not want another Idiot running the show.
Not a single marshal law has made any changes, so why bother now?
Golden nugget from our new LAW minister @ 21:32:
” We can circumvent the Law by ……..”
God help us if this is how the new govt and especially this Law minister is planning on governing the country.
@ rashid
you are violating the rules of this website
@ admin
its your call…
You agree that you will NOT do the following:
- Paste long content from newspapers or any copyrighted material
A good program. Farooq Naik out-witted the ever vigilant, mentally agile Talat.
@GM
Fact is
- PPP has increased its vote bank to well over ONE crore votes compared to aroound 65 lakh votes of PMLN.
-PPP has won seats from all the FOUR provinces, urban and rural areas, educated and uneducated Pakistanis, whereas PMLN has been mainly restricted to voters of Kashmiri and Indian Punjabi ancestary in central punjab and the iodine deficiency belt of potohar/hazara. PMLN leadership should think over it and find the reasons.
-what can be the IDEOLOGY of a dukandaar except munafa and faida.
- PPP not only has selected a PM who was member of Zia Majlis e shooora or even candidates of PM like Shah mahmood Qureshi ( also PPP punjba president) had been associated with Zia regime but it has also as ITS CHIEF POLITICAl ALLY an ex finance minister/chief minister of punjab from Zia’s era..
-Sherry Rehman remained Editor of the prestigious Herald magazine of Dawn group before she joined PPP, Her five years performance in national assembly speaks of her abilities.
-Babar Awan has a doctorate and is immensely successful lawyer. How many good lawyers like him and Farooq Naik can PMLN boast of. When in trouble its leadership seeks help from lawyers from PPP like Atezaz Ahsan and PPP’s ex-governor sind Fakhruddin G.Ibrahim.
Allow the co-operation to continue and flourish. Democracy Zindabad.
@Rashid
The basic dictum of law is:
“Everybody is and should be treated as an INNOCENT until proven otherwise”.
Putting blame is the easy part proving is more difficult. And its the accuser who bears the responsibilty to prove.
@commoner
I don’t know much about the learned people you have mentioned from PPPP, but I disagree with your way of reasoning. They may undoubtedly be very knowledgeable people, but does that ensure their maturity and above all sincerity towards Pakistan? What do you think of Shaukat Aziz? Didn’t he have the knowledge?
I am not comparing the sincerity of Shaukat and the PPP leaders.
/Saqib
@Saqib
What is yout litmus test for maturity and sincerity towards Pakistan?
For me it is the trust that the people of Pakistan repose in a political party/leadership. Therefore it is no wonder that after every Fauji regime the people of Pakistan have voted for PPP, in 1971, in 1989, in 2008.
Please learn to respect the verdict of people of Pakistan.
@commoner
Litmus test: There is no such thing in Pakistani politics on short term - maybe the restoration of the judiciary without any hidden agenda. I believe in issue based opinions rather than associating myself to any party for life. Associating in the sense that I will critisize any steps I consider wrong. I will also praise politicians from other parties who stand for justice, for example AA from PPPP.
I respect the voice of the Pakistani voters, but mind you it is not the same as shutting up. In a democratic setup everyone has the right to air their views regardless of being in majority or minority.
You didn’t answer the question I posed??
/Saqib
@ GM
Do you really think that PML (N) can win majority by relying on the “urban and educted people” in a country where overwhelming majority of the population is uneducated and poor….you must be Dreaming or on crack…..You are making this comment about a party which has despite all your “deal” propaganda and all the rigging has increased its vote bank..Man you have some guts to argue this point…
Regarding your second point of Zia’s Majlis shoora suffice it to say….look who is talking…someone who sat in Zia lap and was created and nurtured by dictator is talking about a party who’s worker have fought every dictator……and a symbol of democracy and hope in this country….
What intellectual purge are you talking about…this is party of that “elitist” mentality of PML (L)’s elite who always think that their supporters/leaders are superior than the poor PPP workers/leaders….tell you the truth…PPP have once again shown that they are stronger than these elites…..enough of your intellectual superiority…..now the poor in pakistan watch media and they will are getting empowered….”AAb raj kare ki Khalke Khuda”…..
What should I say about life long Naukri pesha Mr. Short cut Aziz ? He did exactly what he was imported to do. But please donot compare him with politicians elected by popular votes.
@GM
The fact is PPP has won for fourth time. And when the people of Pakistan are in crisis they have again trusted Pakistan People’s Party. You were expecting PML N to emerge victorous, but to your surprise PPP won so it is understandable if you are pissed off.
Let me tell you some facts too of relatively fair elections result
Seats won by PPP in provincial assemblies:
1- Punjab = 106
2- Sindh = 88
3- Pakhtunkhwah = 30
4- Balochistan = 11
Seats won by PMLN in provincial assemblies:
1- Punjab = 165 (mostly central punjab)
2- Sindh = 0 (ZERO)
3- Pakhtunkhwah = 9 (hindku areas which consider thmselves punjabi)
4- Balochistan = 0 (ZERO)
Does this sound alarming to you being PMLN supporter? Can you name any leader of PML N in Sindh??
The fact of the matter is PPP despite being the prime target of All mighty establishment of Pakistan has sustained itself only BECAUSE OF PEOPLE’s support and Unprecedented Sacrifices of PPP’s leaders and jiyalas. But PMLN has been reduced to only an ethnic party which does not even have leadership in areas other then Punjab.
The most literate city of Pakistan is karachi and guess what who do they support — MQM! The terrorists.
Despite PPP’s heavy presence in All four provinces of Pakistan and Azad Kashmir, you still argue it gets sindhi vote, which Exposes your clear bias against PPP. Yes, sindhis are proud to support to PPP, but it has always been Punjabis who actually bring PPP into power, beside it is supported by balochi and pathans aswell. Beside that, the women and minorities of Pakistan too Support and vote for PPP.
And you are certainly not aware of PPP’s leadership
- Aitzaz Ahsan
- Raza Rabbani
- Farhatullah Baber
- Naveed Qamar
- Taj Haider
- Syed Khurshid Shah
- Raja Pervez Ashraf
- Makhdoom Amin Fahim
- Yusuf Raza Gillani
- Prof. N. D. Khan
- Iqbal Haider
- Sen. Anwer Baig
- Baber Awan
- Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi
- Sherry Rehman
- Ch. Ahmad Mukhtar
- Qasim Zia
- Mohammed Yousaf Talpur
- Dr. Safdar Abbasi
- Sardar Nabeel Ahmed Gabool
- Faisal Karim Kundi
- Dr. Fehmida Mirza
- Jehangir Badr
- Qamar Zaman Qaira
And the people you don’t hear much about are
- Sassui Palijo
- Nafeesa Shah
- Nisar Khuhro
- Qaim Ali Shah
- Fauzia Wahab
- Farzana Raja
- Shahnaz Wazir Ali
- and many more!
PPP has lost its forte of Lahore after Shaheed ZAB, but still the PML N had competition with PPP even in central Punjab and if you see the difference in winning margin in most areas it was a closed call!
Both parties have great as well as corrupt leaders/persons in it.And off course there is no doubt even in the minds of the respective party supporters.
Even Gen Musharraf would have not been as abysmal as now ,had there been no peerzadas and malik Qayyums.
A bit similar (although not at all comparable) is when PMLN had the persons like SaifurRehman and PPP having persons like Rehman Malik (extremely disappointing to see him and persons like him still around).So no matter how much sincere Zardari and NS are,things may not get well;
@Zarak Khan: Re the ‘golden nugget’.. I heard it and reflexively went.. “Did our new law minister just talked about circumventing the law???”
@TK: Yes I am still positive and optimistic but at the same time disappointed. I sincerely hope that this doesn’t turn out to be “the same old shit - just different faces”
People criticize Shaheed ZAB for his nationalization policy which targetted the ruling Elite and wealthier faction of pakistan in favor of poor. But I just wonder, why when NS in his first term looted the poor of nation in the name of “qarz lutao, mulk bachao” scheme, or ceazed the FDI accounts of pakistani expatriats which were against and targetted to masses and poor of pakistan didn’t received similar grilling.
NS has been the darling of Establishment until he desired to be Ameer-ul-momineen and this is ok but when PPP embraces some of the politicians who were associated with zia that is prolematic!
@ Fahim23
There is no doubt that Bhutto was a great leader but he was not infallible. He was only human. I personally think that nationalization policy was not good.
Everyone makes mistakes. Leaders’ fate is decided on the bigger picture.
@GM
Sorry ,I could not found ,where you said that
you were expecting PML N to emerge victorous
as mentioned by Paf123.
I f so,sorry I don’t agree with you.
Although a close competition was expected by many,I supposed PPP to win much more.I was afinally mazed with a huge NS support.
Besides being the runner up, NS (surely no way comparable to ZA Bhutto as far as vision is concerend) has managed to be a runner up with a much junior party to PPP in competition.
@Fahim23 on April 2nd, 2008 10:07 pm
“The most literate city of Pakistan is karachi and guess what who do they support — MQM! The terrorists.”
Is it not hypocratic enough to be with those terrorists now.
Asif Altaf Bhai Bhai ??
While one of the Bhai (Altaf) who could not even dare to enter Pakistan during his own government.
@Paf123 on April 2nd, 2008 9:35 pm (refering to para 2 of your comments )
ZAB was Energy minister and then of commerce,Information and industries.He became a trusted advisor of Field Marshal Ayub.Became Foriegn Minister and all that in the reign of Field Marshal Ayub Khan.
I repeat FIELD MARSHAL.
(in the lap of ???? , If I am permitted to conclude …)
@commoner on April 2nd, 2008 8:48 pm
You mentioned Aitezaz Ahsan .A very nice person.
But Mohterma and Zardari Bhai never ever said any thing encouraging,or supporting to him .He is the apple of their eyes if he wins a seat or hearts of people for them.If he goes for some good cause, he is not acceptable to Zardari and co.
Really democratic?
Mr Bilawal Zardari (Bhutto ??? really) who is in west since long,still studying there ,born with silver spoon and declared as chairman of PPP,a futur prime minister of Pakistan.He and his friends must be laughing at Pakistani nation .
Really a democratic party?What kind of trends being set for other parties?
other parties may behave similar,then whats the difference in the eldest and largest democratic party and others?
Its the most disgusting thing.
@ Atif
You could not find that part in my comment becasue simply i did not say that, and it was an assumption by PAF123.
“The most literate city of Pakistan is karachi and guess what who do they support — MQM! The terrorists.”
Is it not hypocratic enough to be with those terrorists now.
——————————-
Who is going to control MQM if it creates mayhem in Karachi and makes it ungovernable? PPP wants to save Karachi from the terrorism of MQM, this is the only plausible reason for the current dialogue between two parties.
if youlook at my previous posts.. i stated repeatedely that there are three trojan horses in lawyer movement..Faroq Naik, Khosa and baber awan..today baber awan wrote a column in jang, and believe me if you do not read its baber awan you can think that some mqm r q legue guy wrote that…
Farooq naik, rehman malik are crooks….same is true for awan…its sucha petty that ppp have these faces to show to media…i hope that people will treat ppp as tey have treated q league..pml(N) will win the next election provided they do not comprie on
Judiiary
MQ Mterrorism
MUSH´s war against its own people on the will f usa
its free edia era and PPP will soon realize that only”shaheedion ki gardan ” isnot enough,,people want action..
i wonder how long PPP will allow this free media..any case PML (N) has to keep a close eye on their crook coaltaion partner
@ Atif
There is a big difference…ZAB resigned……..not only disagreed but started a movement against Ayub (dictator..foundation stone of PPP)…NS sat in Zia’s lap until Zia was dead….that is difference……
@asfand1 on April 2nd, 2008 11:37 pm
I agree with your reply.
I hope PPP can convince MQM to stop violence and not to repeat ever incidence like one on 12th May and also will talk to Altaf Bhai to let Imran Khan to enter Karachi (as it is his right).
To ensure this ,Zardari may ask Altaf Bhai to join hands with him and participate in sindh govenment by actually being there.
In addition,Q league (called Qatil League by Zardari) was lesser obedient to Musharraf in comparison to MQM.so why not they can enjoy he benifits of friendship?
Anyways,I hope the intentions are right.
@ sleepingnation
read his column again…he made one point…that chief justice should not indulge in politics…for a very simple reason that he the chief justice (every one in this forum will agree with the aforementioned point)…especially when he will be restored. He should not have visited AZ and there is no point rallying. There is reason…we do not want him to be controversial or made controversial in any way……
His restoration is an intricate issue and he should show some responsibility because he is the chief justice of Pakistan..there is lot of sanctity attached to his post….especially in these circumstances where whole nation has stood beside him….He has big resposibility on his shoulders to control the lawyer leaders so that he remains above board….I have no doubt in my mind that he will be restored..and Mush will get a shock…..because NS and AZ has not shown their cards on this issue….
If you have noticed….NS has not given any statement or shown any reservation on this issue..because the deal and modalities has been finalized b/w him and AZ…It is a matter of time….mush be ready…it is coming..
@ GM and Atif
I quote “PPP has gradually been kicked off by the urban and educated people as shown by all previous elections”. It is a reasonable assumption based on GM’s comments..Just making the record straight.
@paf123
Puttar PPP is now doing Ain Bain Shain. Obviously CJ woul dbe now considered controversial because he can deliver justice for AWAM. His restoration is good for Pakistani PUBLIC, not good for political party chamchas.
If he is not restored, then we wil prove that DOCTRINE OF NECESSITY is still alive and kicking. I would say, it will be a miracle of century if PPP stick to its Muree Declaration.
PPP supporters missing one point, that majority of people in Pakistan and on this forum want the restoration of judiciary. Let us be clear, that even if CJ is not restored, PEOPLE are in for a long fight, and it will be a battle lost, but it won’t be a WIN for political parties.
@Paf123 on April 3rd, 2008 12:02 am
“because NS and AZ has not shown their cards on this issue….”
NS not shown his cards?
his top most agenda in elections,his acceptance of invitation to form govenment ,and even the oath taking was conditional with this single point.
And you have said do simply that he has not shown his cards on this issue.
I am unable to understand,why you have said so?
May be i misinterpreted what you wanted to say?
Yes,I agree, as far as concerned is the issue of meeting with CJ or saying something about CJ ive or -ive.
This is what should be done, to ensure that judiciary and administrations are independently working without any compromises .
CJ is not at all an angel,by the way.
But surely he has rightly become a symbol of Independent Judiciary.
Every Party should accept this fact in the favor of Pakistan, and not in the favor of some party or some individual.
I hope so.
@econfused
How can you say that PPP supporters miss the point that the nation wants to see the deposed judges RESTORED? Which party members have been leading the lawyer’s movement, which party leaders has been hit with bricks and sticks and members has lost their lifes for the restoration of judiciary?
A written document is in front of you which clearly states that within 30 days the Judges will be restored. But that is apparently not enough, then I don’t understand what can convince you of PPP’s committment to RESTORE judiciary.
And you saying PPP is doing “Ain bain shain” NOW, while other PPP bashers have been saying the elections. PPP is leading nation to disaster by not boycotting and siding with other “immature” political parties, PPP will form alliance with PML Q and ditch PML N, PPP will form forward bloack and will disintegrate etc, and in most things Alhamdulilah PPP bashers have faced utter disappointment and mouth shut.
Will you be courageous enough to give the credit to PPP, if against your fears PPP will do exactly what the nations wants?
@Optimist
I agree Bhutto’s nationalization policy was failure. But it was his honest step turned wrong and PPP should bear its responsiblity and he Targetted already Elite class not the poors. And due to his step the point I wanted to make is that, the same elite Establishment has propagated False, Baseless, and sometimes Exaggerated blames on PPP. Like “jo bhee bengladesh jayega men us ki tangen tor duun ga” or “idhar tum idhar hum” etc! Which are totally false but repeated continuously as Israel say palestine was never a country!
He was a great leader but off course human!
@Atif
————————————————————-
Besides being the runner up, NS (surely no way comparable to ZA Bhutto as far as vision is concerend) has managed to be a runner up with a much junior party to PPP in competition.
——————————————————————————————–
WHAT??? lolzz man!
@fahim23
I have seen people like @kinnare (and many hardcore PPP supporters) coming up with vague statements. I have belief in “Murree Declaration”, the only party which will make/break the deal is PPP. PML-N has nothing to loose, if PPP backs out of the deal.
I apologize if you have a different view. But PPP supporters generally try to malign the CJ. Usually AA is snubbed by leaders like Khosa and babar Awan.
@Atif
Sorry I couldn’t understand your message, I thought you are sayinf NS is comparable to ZA Bhutto as far as vision is concerned.
@ Fahim23
To be honest, I blame more PPP for establishment’s propaganda than establishment.
PPP has ignored all propaganda and has never effectively defended itself. We have seen rehetoric by PPP leaders but they never went to public with answers to the questions.
For example, I read about BMW case on Zardari a few days ago. Whenever the world BMW came, I thought probably he is accused of opening a factory or having 50, 000 cars. When they dropped the case, I realised that it was ONE BMW which was imported and duty was not paid. Even this was imported by someone else who was accused of being front man of Zardari. I was gobsmacked at the hype and true value of one car!!
‘Hum Guneh-gaar Nahi HooN’ is not enough to convince ordinary people. PPP should have challenged these notions of ‘jo bhee bangladesh jayega…’. Even Abdul Qadir Hasan and Javed Chaudhry have repeated that and no PPP person ever wrote to them or protested.
Where is PPP’s media cell???
@Fahim23 on April 3rd, 2008 12:31 am
Agreed upto much extent with you.
However unfortuntely BB,Zardari and co did not support (weekly or strongly) this lawyer movement despite a very very strong practical support to movement by PPP workers and Aitezaz Ehsan.
Yes ,I will give credit to PPP,but firstly to PPP workers and Aitezaz Ehsan for this.
IK,JI and Achakzai NS had strong stance on this issue.
Well,Boycott issue has been discussed a lot already.I would just add that with a total boycott,Musharrag would have been uprooted much earlier.This was a strong confrontational decision very similar to what ZAB succesfully practiced against Field Marshal Ayub.
Extensive meadia coverage allowed to achieve a part of this without a total boycott.
Farooq Nayik is great
Thanks for Grilling Talat Hussain [who even doesn’t know who is the main beneficiary of NRO i.e MQM}.
who got there 1800 cases erased.
come on get your Facts straight
@econfused
I never wanted to write this but If people argue that the CJ Iftikhar Chowdhry has been a PCO-zada judge, (though I believe as NS and AZ has learnt thr lesson, CJ honestly has realized what is good for nation and this time he was sacked because he Really said NO to a dictator), validated musharf’s coup, found Mr. Javed Hashmi Ghaddar and rejected his bails, and of Mr. YRG and Mr. AZ or illegally kept them under detention then that shows the character weakness of CJ. What’s wrong with this. The point is, a dictator illegally unconstitutionally sacked the Cheif Justice of Pakistan and therefore, we have to restore him (without going into track record of CJ). Who can argue or deny this point If anyone do not restore the CJ Iftikhar Chowdhry that means s/he is validating Dictatorship.
But Thanks God, he said NO to dictator and nation has gone through a revolution and we have arrived at consensus that military dictator is enemy of pakistan.
@Atif
with a total boycott {which is never possible} musharraf would have been still enjoying presidency with the Govt of his choice MQM PMLq and many independent candidates in an election of a turn over of 40%.
which would have been a big blow to democracy in Pakistan.
its Happened in 1985.
@Fahim23 on April 3rd, 2008 12:42 am
I simply said,
NS is no way comparable to ZAB.
off course ZAB was agreat leader with much more intellect and vision than NS.
I don’t have any doubt.
if you people think that supreme court on 2 november 2008 was an independent supreme court thats a fools paradises.
the reason i support reinstation of the Judiciary is not that because its was an independent judiciary, its because Musharraf’s act was illegal and illegitimate.
@Optimist
Yes, you can say that PPP has not been able to defend itself. And I would accept it. But I am sure you would agree that PPP is up against All mighty establishment — jis k aagay mulk nahin bach saka hay —! Pakistan, establishment ky liye baap ki jageer hy jab chacha kisi ko goli mar ker ura diya, kisi ko phansi lagadee, kisi ko hathkaree laga ker zaleel kia, and it is only PPP who has Strived and actually given the power back to People!
@Fahim23
I have said again and again that I do not give ANY CREDIT to political parties. The change is brought by a simple NO by the CJ. I agree that he did take OATH under PCO. He changed soon after becoming Chief Justice. He was not CJ in 1999.
To me he is the savior of this nation. You, political parties and anybody else do not want back, that is fine. The guy has reserved his space in history. Nothing can change that, he is my hero and I wil make sure that my kids and coming generations remember him that way.
He also given hopes million of others to follow that sayiing NO to a General is not a big deal and it can be done.
Coming generations can sanitize him also, like Zia Islamized Jinnah
*CJ MIGHT NOT BE BACK, BUT HE IS LEGEND FOR PAKISTAN HISTORY*
no i think PPP has defended itself well that why people vote for it.
PPP is the party of the poor people of pakistan thats why is always opposed by the so-called middle class and the ellites.
@awais
I hope you understand Punjabi
“Goon Naheen Billyan Niazbo keeti”
Why dont you ask CJ to come and fight an election in NA 55 you will come to know how many people like him and vote for him.
man there is a difference in political leadership and heroism.
imran Khan is a hero but he hardly can win his own seat.
same true for aitzaz.
@ econfused
sorry i couldnt get your Punjabi
Translate in English or Sariki.
Being PPP supporter, I would like to invite everyone to consider the view of PPP when
- It acts (sometime) over cautious against establishment,
It is because PPP has been the one which has suffered most! isi party ny sab se ziyada establishment ko bhugta hy.
Well lets put CJ Iftikhar Ch and Pervaiz Musharraf in NA 55. and put CJ against Sheeda Tali in NA 56. You would know what will happen.
Javed Hashmi was not local politician, Sheeda zaleel ho gia, in his own city, what does that tell you?
@confused
“Its not shit, instead flowers droppings by cat”
@ Awais
PPP has not defended itself well.
This is not just my view. Many journalists, including Abbas Athar - who is an old PPP person, has written about that many times.
I know many people who are middle class and honestly believe that PPP is anti-Pakistan party. I don’t doubt their honesty. They have been fed something so regularly that they have started believing in that.
While its good to ignore barking d0gs (like NS did with Chaudhries), it is important to answer serious allegations.
If I, after reading many papers regularly, was not aware of BMW case’s reality; it means PPP should have done more to get its message across.
if you put CJ in Na 55 against Sheeda Talli
he {CJP} will definitely loose elections.
javid Hashmi was a politician with the PMLn Vote Banks.
I hope you mean PCO CJ Dogar…
@fahim23
Its ok to be cautious, and I have belief in Murree Declaration. I am not any a PPP voter, but have defending their stances in discussion threads. People like Khosa, and Farooq Naik, just scare me.
@Fahim23 on April 3rd, 2008 12:36 am
ZAB did not say ““jo bhee bengladesh jayega men us ki tangen tor duun ga”
He said the above quoted phrase to Elected PPP memebrs if they attend the National Assembly’s inauguration ceremony .Awami League had won 160 seats while PPP had won 81 seats.However Bhutto refused to let Awami league form the government and in this context he uttered this threatening statement to elected PPP members.
Off course ,here the confrontation had the consequences.
@awais
Beta PML-N voter has given vote to NS on one point agenda. So if you put Ifthikar Ch in NA55. you can definitely know the outcome.
PML-N is a party, which is willing to give AA a ticket or any place to run election.
@econfused
CJ is definitely a hero, no doubt about it, and believe you me, I want him to see back in our supreme court on his seat not only becauase he has said historical No to dictator but also because I have my personal intrest. Which is he was vigourously following missing person cases and most of the missing person are from Sindh and Balochistan. And he was following “Manoo Bheel case”.
I give the due credit of political parties in this revolution, his No provided an opportunity to political parties and they have made the dictator (the Musharaf) weak and isolated by taking part in elections (Thanks to PPP).
@Optimist
you need to understand that PPP strong hold and vote bank is the poor , labour class voters.
and PPP is good in it and did well that before.
But its your are Talking about Urban Middle class which is think is Biased and is brainwashed by the Zia ul Haqque propaganda so they will never accept PPP [ as its progressive, liberal, sacular, anti-theocratic, anti-shaovnist, Party which is not acceptable to the majority of the Urban Middle class.
for that you need to understand the mentality of the Urban Middle class of Pakistan.
1-they are Religious
2-They are regressive
3-they are anti-Indians and Jews
4-they are pro-Islamists
5-They are anti-american
6-They are against Women empowerment
7-They have socially nerrow spectrum.
while PPP is totally opposite to all the above as is the poor working, labour Class of Pakistan.
@fahim23
I mean to say that political parties was clueless till May of last year. If it wasn’t the CJ, who singlehandedly build a wall infront of Dictator.
Rest is history and yes PPP and PML-N played really well afterward. I also have to remind you of an interview of Ch. Nisar, in which he said PML-N do not have Jiyalas like PPP but shareef voters. Ch. Nisar said our supporters might not come to the streets, but given chance they will come for vote. It was during a capital talk a while back.
His statement also proved to be true, as nodoy was able to reach Airport on September 10th, but PML-N got decent votes on 18th.
Yes, political parties have played well, and I considered BB a shrew politician. Still the whole thing came to life after a NO by CJ.
You might disagree, but AA was snubbed by PPP after his initial hero status.
@ Awais
I think you are missing my point.
If PPP has strong base in poor, labour class, it MUST not leave other areas to some other party just because of Zia ul Haq. There was life before Zia (when PPP was popular in urban areas) and there is a life after Zia when you can rebuild.
PPP must counter that propaganda. And with such a firm belief that urban people would never accept PPP, what will happen to PPP when by 2030 majority of Pakistani population would be urbanized? Just give up because people will never accept? That is not a way to improve things.
@Fahim23 on April 3rd, 2008 1:00 am
Fahim Bhai, Yahee tow.
PPP supporters say,NS is marshal’s by product, then it also fits to ZAB of 1957.
ZAB afterwards fought against establishment, so is being done by NS.
But when you say , this is ONLY PPP, I am afraid you are giving much more credit to the PPP leaders than they deserved.
Optimist
no i didnt said that PPP shouldnt concentrate on Urban Middle class.
but what will you do first.
Will you concentrate on your strong holds first or would you go and concentrate on your opponents areas first.
I think PPP did well they concentrates on Poor Class first but i agree they need now to concentrate Uraban Middle Class as well.
Atif
But ZAB or PPP never came in power {GOVT} with the help of Establishment.
ZAB left Ayub Khan and then Made PPP.
While Mian Sahab made PML n and enjoyed GOVT with the Help of Establishment {in 1990 and 1997}
and he hasnt win any elections since been anti-establishment.
@Awais,
I am so much shocked to know that people who can use Internet like you can still have these kind of views.
You Said:
1-they are Religious
2-They are regressive
3-they are anti-Indians and Jews
4-they are pro-Islamists
5-They are anti-american
6-They are against Women empowerment
7-They have socially nerrow spectrum.
Can you share your views for each of the point with fact of any kind? Do you really believe people living outside urban areas doing wanni, karo kari and marrying quran are progressive people?
I am also interested to know what will happen by 2030 when entire Pakistan becomes educated and turns into Urban area.
Do you really want to keep all Pakistani poor and uneducated so that they keep on supporting PPP?
@econfused
I think your frustration and disappointment with respect to political parties are understandable, one because politics has been turned into an abuse by all mighty establishmend, and second they too have failed the nation often to deliver.
Credit probably does not even matter much as long as we are able to get rid of one man rule and establish rule of law in country.
Regarding Aitzaz I won’t say snubbed by PPP but probably he was not supported fully by PPP and if you remember every body tried hard to get Aitzaz Ahsan in PML N or at least quit PPP but Alhamdulilah he is still there!
PML N do not have jiyalas because of its structure, being urbanized doesn’t mean you cannot attract masses. Look at MQM, ppl of karachi are very well educated but their party is very well organised and disciplined. Same is largely true for PPP, it has nationwide political base. That’s why it attracts people. Remember the Lahore reception of Mohtarma in 80s. NS cannot even think to do that until PMLN restrucre its party, in sindh they don’t even have leaders voters comes next.
@Optimist
I totally second with you. As far as marketting is concerned PMLN has edge over PPP, probably cause NS himself is an industrialist and businessman. Most of the PPP supporter are poor, they don’t have access to internet or other media outlets. Therefore, despite the largest vote geting party of Pakistan, you will find its supporters less then PMLN’s on internet forums.
PPP needs to improve its media cell.
As far as poor ,middle class reasoning is concerned.
I take it in a bit other way.
Why not PPP been able to eliminate or decrease the poverty form the where it wins.(Interior Sindh and southern Punjab specially)
Because the jageerdars there dont want this to happen.
And unfortunately PPP supports those jageerdars for its own beneifit (off course vote bank).
A change is first visible from the home.
So Why the areas of PPP majority are poorer .
because they have to, otherwise they will have a voice (no matter far or against ).So this voice is not liked by Jageerdars, and hence by PPP. So things go ang go round in a cycle.PPP comes up with a party of poor people (and this way will remain a party of por people with billionaires as its heads.)
rasheed
come on rasheed dont show your deniyl
have you ever heard any poor labourer marrying his Daughter to Kuran
do the poor women working in fields picking cotton or cutting Wheat observe Hijjab?
do the poor working women in other peoples houses observe Wanni ?
do the poor people of the rural interior who doest have anything to eat hate India or Israel they even don’t know whats isreal?
Have you even seen any poor Harri of sindh in Tablighi jamaaat?
for you kind information if you ever been to the poor peoples houses in Rural Areas they don’t discriminate people based on their Religon , Race or gender.
Its was these poor people who made a women as their PM although all your middle class establishment was against her.
Internet forum does not change much the minds of people , and hence have nota greater impact on vote bank.
So it is just ridiculous .
PPP has much stronger and active media cell than PMLN or any other party .Even a much smaller party MQM’s media cell is more active than PMLN’s.
PPP has got more support (moral or somewhat else) by west and USA than PMLN.
@Fahim23 on April 3rd, 2008 1:34 am
This is what is not democratic.
Why Jiyalism?
If one is not convinced with PPP,on should quit (at least for a while) .
If BB did wrong somwhere (She was a human and could do so),one should not be jiyala and raise voice against.
If structure of party is the main thing.
Even terrorists are much structured,it does not mean we should support them.
or even Army is much disciplined ,
The criteria is ideological base and subsequent adhesion and implementation .So each voter should revise his vote each time very cautiously based upon this , and not becoming jiala or sher or fidaee etc.
Now I ask you as you finally mentioned..”but probably he was not supported fully by PPP”
I ask “WHY?”
any personal or party benefit ? or something for the sake of Pakistan that PPP leadership did not support fully his own popular leader Aitezaz Ahsan.
you just again ended the para with a blame on PMLN (they tried hard Aitizaz to join them,if so).Then there is nothing to credit for PPP.its a personal credit to Aitezaz.
And PMLN’s credit that they supported PPP’s leader (Aitezaz) because he was doing the right things.
@ Fahim23
I think PPP’s negligence is criminal. I can seriously say that a big number of people in the cities HONESTLY believes that PPP is anti-Pakistan party.
PPP might have poor voters, it has a long list of intellectuals and western qualified people who are running it. And majority of them are not poor. They could have started debates on lies about ZAB. If I was in PPP media cell, I would have challenged people (like AA did to Malik Qayum) to clarify that Bhutto didn’t say those things.
To me it seems that PPP doesn’t care about its image. A normal educated person needs to leave his/her work aside and read between the lines in every paper and many books on sociology and history to know that all this hype might just be a propaganda.
As far brother Awais, he thinks that I am attacking PPP so he is passionately defending it and this doesn’t leave much room for argument. All I can get from his post is: ‘even if you might be right, whatever PPP did is right and they couldn’t do any better’.
@Optimist on April 3rd, 2008 2:08 am
But my brother .
Will it always remain the party of poor.or those poors will ever be benifited?
Will they alwys remain suppressed??
Because the slogan of PPP “Roti ,kapra aur Makaan” is quite old causing no change for them.Poor supporting this party (Either on their own by their own intellect or otherwise )will reamin poor and illetrate and will not get any voice of their own ???
WHY??
Is it a mere propaganda?
PPP leadership is also poor that they can’t counter “this” propaganda?
or PPP leadership is that much innocent or ignorant that it can’t understand how to counter propaganda ?
Visionary leaders like BB and now Zardari are that much dumb, that they don’t understand propaganda?
PPP has the most active media cell with much more budget and support from western media as well.
How much support or coverage is given by western media to NS as compared to BB?
Things are obvious .
Baqi Allah Behtar Janta hai
@Awais,
Your intellectual level and arguments are the most shameful level I have ever read on any internet forum. Guys like you should be banned until they pass at least 4th grade.
It would be a disgrace for me to even discuss it further with you.
@Optimist
Let me share with you that this need of effective image progression is already felt by PPP. Both Mohtarma and AZ realized that PPP is losing central punjab and then they decided to make Lahore as their headquarter. And once the government is completely stable and working, AZ will reside in Bilawal house of Lahore.
Beside that, PPP has plans to turn Bilawal house of karachi into Quaid-e-awam museum and also developing Quaid-e-awam complex in Garhi Khuda Bux. The PPP also has prepared CDs and cassettes of ZAB and BB’s lectures and speeches. The books of those two leaders by or on them are available on PPP’s website for free (http://www.pppusa.org/).
There is also a plan to make documentaries on the life of ZAB.
And PPP wants to target its real audience which is Students and soon there will be debate on how to attract students of Pakistan back to their first love since creation of Pakistan.
And please don’t find me offending, but the people of central punjab find it so easy to accuse people as Ghaddar (Sindhi, balochi, pathan, and siraiki) are all called and believed as Traitors or anti-pakistan. Their mood is tilted towards center right or extreme right. (They are highly influenced by Shah waliullah, Hazrat Mujadid alf sani then Bullehshah) This is the reason there rural areas were most affected (I would say plagued) by Zia’s Islamization process and it birthed lashhkar-e-jhangive, sipah sahaba etc. PML N has brought them towards center right and I am sure people like Aitzaz ahsan, fakhar zaman will others will invoke bullahism in them :).
PS: People of Sindh are probably most immersed in Sufism (which is left of Islam), they admire Qalander, Mansoor halaj, Sachal Sarmast or Bhittai. I can be wrong in this analogy, if I am please apologize me.
@ Atif
you want the truth?
Some people will tell you stories of Hazrat Umar and thirsty dog by Dajla. These are old stories (considering they were not spread by someone).
Pakistan’s poor will remain poor for at least 100 years (In case we keep progressing with 6%). If we don’t progress, it will become worse.
Poor people need political slogans to be motivated. PPP cannot, even if it is 100% committed - which I think they are not, do anything about poverty. It is a big disease and quite long term one!
@ rasheed
After copy pasting whole articles of Cowasjee, you have violated another rule of this forum.
@ admin
again… this is your call..
You agree that you will NOT do the following:
- Use dirty language against other visitors of this site
@Fahim23
you made great effort to list all great and educated leaders but forget to mention your co chair man asif zardari can you tell me how educated he is and what you think about his past apart from spending most of his time in jail and taking over the hot seat of ppp and even changing the names of his childrens to keep ppp in his hand, i can go on and on but i think these are enough question for you.
no doubt some of the peoples u listed are great but peoples like jahngir badar . i don’t know why i can’t force myself to call him an educated and great leader.
@londoner007, it seem you are jalous that you were not able to do what Zardari did.
@Atif
Jiyalaism means you firmly believe in an idealogy because in your view it is right. Your idealogy is very rarely changed. But you can have Differences in lots of other issues and that can make you quit your party. There are many PPP jiyalas (like Khalid mairaj, shafqat mahmood, iftikhar gillani, etc) who quit PPP because they find something going against their idealogy. The lahoris once were all jiyalas, PPP won all seats in its first elction from lahore. But they thought PPP is not good for them they left the party. The good thing with PPP’s jiyalas is that they do not become lota, like most muslim leaguis. When they quit PPP they either relinquish the politics or form their own party, they don’t jump in from one party to another. I hope you have understood what is jiyalaism.
——————-
If structure of party is the main thing.
Even terrorists are much structured,it does not mean we should support them.
or even Army is much disciplined ,
——————–
I don’t know what do you mean by this. But I was trying to make a point that PPP mobilize masses because of its nationwide political base and party structure. MQM does this too. PMLN don’t or can’t because they dont have nationwide political base and strong party structure.
———————–
Now I ask you as you finally mentioned..”but probably he was not supported fully by PPP”
I ask “WHY?”
———————-
That’s cos PPP has history which makes them cautious against establishment. For PMLN it is their first fight with establishment and they have just recently joined PPP in struggle against Establishment. While PPP since 1977 is in head to head fight with it. The PPP leaders didn’t cashed the issue of judiciary like NS did, because the PPP was targeting to lead the nation towards election and was not allowing establishment to take any extreme action.
While they didnt take verbal strong position like other parties but it actually supported Aitzaz ahsan and judiciary by
1- organizing CJ’s rallies (12th May, 19th June or july i m forgetting and on many other occassions)
2- by taking bricks, stones and sticks and laying their lives for the cause of Judiciary. (Not a single party worker or leader of PMLN has sacrificed his life for the cause of judiciary or even democracy in the history of Pakistan).
3- By allowing Aitzaz not to contest in elections.
Aitzaz Ahsan is the asset of PPP and Pakistan.
@optimist,
Where?
Admin
@fahim23
As I said I am not bound to a single party. I defend based on my conscience. Thats the only reason some time I defend actions by PML-N, PPP or anybody else whomever seems to be saying the right thing.
On the other hand, if I look at your comments, they are always biased towards PPP. There is nothing wrong with that, except sometimes you will come up with justifications for the wrong things.
I would change my opinion based on the issues. I will also be neutral, and I will take sides, as I consider neutrals are the worst people. As you got to have an opinion one way or the other. Now a days I am much closer to PML-N stance, but beyond that I am a follower of Aitezaz.
Now you seem to be educated reasonable person, why would you never criticize policies of your leadership?
admin
any video tonight?
@kinnare
I am sure i won’t change my kids names for anything
@fahim23
I would STRONGLY DISAGREE by following statement. NS started against establishment during his second term. Please keep the facts straight..
“PMLN it is their first fight with establishment and they have just recently joined PPP in struggle against Establishment.”
@londoner
I think AZ was prime target of establishment to malign PPP and Mohtarma and probably he too provided them good chance. I agree with Ayaz Amir the member of PMLN who argues while the Zardari did corruption leaving the trails behind NS did same and probably much more but very professionally.
But, NS has not yet paid the price and infact has benefitted most. While zardari has suffered already enough. He is the only politician who has struggled alot and spent more thn 11 and half years in prison without being convicted. While in prison he has been tortured (his neck and tongue was cut during interrogation) and lost his close friends (eg., Abdullah Murad) and Wife in the struggle.
As far as Jehangir Badr is concerned, I have named him as Leader of PPP. He has been the student leader from the times of Bhutto Sb, and raised to the ranks of office bearers and become member of CEC. I don’t know much about his education qualification except that he probably have a degree in Law.
I didn’t mention Asif Zardari deliberately, if BB would have been alived I would have definitely name him. But as GM didn’t name NS in his post, I too didnt name Asif Zardari.
And they are just few, I can name many other like Fakhar zaman, naseerullah babar, nafees sidiqui, manzoor wasan, hussain haqqani. etc. While the PMLN supporters would have been only able to add raja zafrulhaf and zafar iqbal jhagra in their rank.
@Atif
You are adding another accusation in the long list against PPP by saying that PPP’s media cell received foreign funding? So do you think US, Israel and India pays PPP’s media cell.
Mohtarma was a world leader (NS is not), she used to lecture in Western countries and used to plead Pakistan’s case for democracy. NS is not capable of doing that. It was her personality as muslim women from Pakistan advocating and lecturing on democracy which impressed US and other western countries to support a party with socialist idealogy.
After BB same thing is being done by Imran Khan. He now regularly visit America to present Pakistan’s point on the world forums.
@econfused
Its alright mam, you can have your views. I formed that view because uptil 1993 NS was definitely the darling of establishment, he conspired, benefitted and nurtured his political base against democracy in favor of dictatorship and establishment (in my view of course) but he didnt really confronted establishment. In 1997, he actually tried to confront establishment by becoming Ameer-ul-momineen.
I remember one of Dr. Shahid Masood’s program in which he asked this question for which party establishment has soft corner and all replied even today it is PMLN. Pakistani establishment has majority of those who are zia’s remanents and NS has served them alot.
@fahim23
I would STRONGLY DISAGREE by following statement. NS started against establishment during his second term. Please keep the facts straight..
———————————————————————————————–
This is also a fact, he was enjoying his 2nd term as PM at time.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2007/12/27/GA2007122702077.html?sid=ST2007122700452
snap# 15 shows clearly his strong association with Zia & establishment.
Nawaz Sharif, head of the Pakistan Muslim League, appears at an Aug. 1997 event marking the ninth anniversary of the death of Zia ul-Haq, the longtime military ruler of Pakistan.
@Fahim23
So you did agree that he went against the wishes of establishment? You did avoid my other questions
@asif
Seriously man, I am not discussing Imran here.
but keep the facts straight man.
One can deduse any meaning from the history but can’t rewrite the facts.
econfused
Atleast this time you would have to accept that NS was still with establishment even during his 2nd term.
@asif
Getting rid of 58-2b was against establishment. Some how you don’t get it.
econfused
I have given you a proof of his affilliation with establishment during his 2nd term that you denied.
Since you challenged it.
Everything is history we don’t have to rewrite, but only when someone challenges some facts.
So taking away 58-2b was for establishment? He did make PML a viable party against establishment didn’t he?
@econfused
I really appreciate your way of supporting actions not parties, thats really good. I am PPP supporter (I try to be not blind), I have watched ZA Bhutto’s speeches, read his lectures and books and believe me even on youtube, as the crowd was responding to ZAB I found myself in that crowd! I am highly impressed with his personality!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRkAW1tsg5M&feature=related
The way he used to Ask the will of people in crowd….ye karon ya na karoon is unique!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhbhiDBEfVY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDaqYBm0Iak&feature=related
PPP has history of sacrifices and contribution for this country, which I don’t find in any pther party. I liked the PMLN’s recent stance on judiciary but other than that they don’t attract me at all.
Beside I think PPP is not just ZAB or BB it is also its Jiyalas, their devotion and sincerity makes me a jiyala.
You are saying I don’t criticise PPP policies thats coz you haven’t read my all posts. As I didnt read any of your post before in which you have repeatedly said you don’t support any one party. I don’t support PPP’s NRO or their preference of Feudals over real Jiyalas etc.
I digged in when only when you brushed away the other guy by something which was not correct.
Regarding 58-2b, PMLN viability, etc, I have already said that everything is history we don’t have to rewrite.
@Fahim23: If you have Bhutto’s Sahab’s “Myth of Independence” in pdf can u up it to Scribd ? thx bro.
@fahim23
Well we are both here and we will know in a month. Right now the whole nation is watching, and we would know where parties stand. I understand PML-N is in a win win situation (politically) while PPP got lots on the line.
Lets stop the argument here, and revisit in coming weeks
BTW, I absolutely love Bhutto speeches, so thanks for the links. Now a days I just listen to budget speech of Kh. Asif.
econfused
you have the right to challenge the fact that put forward.
@TK
I saved Javed Hashmi from scribd with extension .scb. Somebody mention a tool which can be used to view files without nt connection, do u know what it was?
@econfused
Yea, we should wait and see. If PPP back outs or do something fishy (which I’m sure InshALLAH she would never) then I will be the one most disappointed abd dishearted!
I hoestly have not missed any of your question deliberately, I would read the posts again and would try to reply you with my little knowledge!
Kh. Asif’s speech was good one!!
Now a days I just listen to budget speech of Kh. Asif.
————————————————————————————————-
Let see & pray(yes pray) that Ishaq Dar can recall the speech of Kh. Asif. Education is the only way to get out of the mess that we are in, but who will do it in south Punjab, rural Balochistan, rural Sind & rural NWFP? who will bell the cat? especially under the wadair’s nose.
@TK
bro you will find most of Books including the one you requested on this website along with many of his speeches (video and text)
http://www.bhutto.org/
regards
@asif
Yes, they better deliver, and if they don’t you will definitely find me on these forums and on streets.
@ Asif
I am also doign the same i.e. watching Kh Asif Budget speech
Symbolically they should announce that Aitchison College, a remnant of British Raj, has been converted into a Park. Never mind there are only a couple thousand students who could be absorbed into local public schools.
British raj is not embedded in a couple of buildings but its a mindset to which you can name as status quo & once you have single education system in Pakistan, affordable atleast upto grade-12 to everyone & availble everywhere in Pakistan, these couple of buildings would automatically diminsh.
Instead of opening a new front, I would prefer to go ahead with education for everyone & everywhere atleast upto grade-12 under one umbrella(single education system).
Well these did not automatically diminish for the last sixty years.
These Polis and Jurnails and Bureaucrats did not make that many parks for poor.
turning Aitchison college into a park would be a small step in the right direction.
Ofcourse i agree, they should have a common curriculum.
But then How we would rule these “Chopaya”? If we give them education. then how we would rule?
@econfused
I think its scaa studio. Haven’t used it myself though.
correction. “SCALA”
But then How we would rule these “Chopaya”? If we give them education. then how we would rule?
———————————————————————————————–
Then what the heck converting of atchison to park will do.
@atif
———————-
@Fahim23 on April 3rd, 2008 12:36 am
ZAB did not say ““jo bhee bengladesh jayega men us ki tangen tor duun ga”
He said the above quoted phrase to Elected PPP memebrs if they attend the National Assembly’s inauguration ceremony .Awami League had won 160 seats while PPP had won 81 seats.However Bhutto refused to let Awami league form the government and in this context he uttered this threatening statement to elected PPP members.
————————
ZAB never said that. He actually said:
—————————————————————————————————-
“If they rubber stamp the Awami League’s draft constitution they will have no leg to stand upon on their return to their respective constituencies here. ”
“The Crisis : Two Alternatives” Public Meeting, Lahore, February 28, 1971
Source for complete speech: http://www.bhutto.org/70Speeches/Speech-33.htm
—————————————————————————————————-
Does it in anyway sound to you that Bhutto said: Jo east pakistan jayega men us ki tangein tor doon ga???
@Fahim23: Thanks a lot bro! You have no idea how much I searched for this book all over the torrent sites… I betcha if I google it now it will go directly to bhutto.org..
I’m going to put a link to it on my blog too.. google spider needs some incoming links for it’s pagerank alkhwarizm.
@Asif
by ur logic Imran Khan is still establishment man since he ws a big supporter of mush till Oct 2002.
Yaaro!
FAROOQ NAIK JAM ke kisi ne APNA, MERA aur APKA tame (time) hi zaya kiya hai.
KHACH hi marni hai to to band thori CHAJ ki maray.
@fahim23
@fahim23
You mentioned what happened with AZ in jail it was wrong , this should never happen with even convited peoples bu this does not mean that he is a good politician, anyway i want to draw your attention to aother matter
yesterday AZ went to 90 ad forgive mqm for what they done on 12th may 2007, i am ure you know how many ppp workers were died an killes by mqm ppp showed the videos of mqm terrors with the guns, who don’t know what happen in karachi on 12 may. question is why did he go to 90 and forgiven them for killing his workers an did he ask to the parents, sons and wives of killed worker for this forgiveness. parents and wives of killed peoples have a right to forgive. and why he done it because of some political reasons you know every one knows what are they but i only want to say there should be some rules and regulation in politic too…………… if ppp is talking to mqm who was best buddy of mush and pmlnq then i think they should talk to them (PMLq) so ppp wont have any problem running the gov. every one will be happy but the peoples of pakistan
khizarkyz
You didn’t get to the point I made a correction to econfused’s fact finding by providing him a proof that even during 2nd tenure NS was still with establishment.
And if you wanna bash IK just because I support him, you are most welcomed. You have the right do it whatever you like
khizarkyz
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/words-words-038-words-say-what-people-wanna-listen-038-do-what-suits-you?replies=1
@Fahim23 on April 3rd, 2008 3:19 am
I never said that BB’s media cell was funded by India,Israeel or USA.
It’s a wrong conclusion drawn.
__________________________________________________________
Now,I would just remind, I never ever have a doubt that ZAB was a great leader and did well,which no one other did.But off course he made some mistakes (I repeat MISTAKES,not some conspiracy or criminal activity)As he was just a human ,so he was very likely to do so.
____________________________________________________________
And Please come out of Zia Baqiaat,Marshal LAw kee pedawaar etc;
Zia was never that strong as Ayub and Musharraf.
And ZAB was from Ayub’s cabinet.
Musharraf had amuch softer corner for BB than NS (rather is still a jani dusman of NS)
Zia took over ZAB’s govt, (Zia was appointed on merit basis by ZAB?)
Mush tookover NS (Mush appointed on merit?)
Then Why PPP welcomed Mush’s Govt?
Is it not hypocratic ?
When I criticise PPP ,it is because PPP is elder one and must be more responsibe,which it was not.
97 elections have clearly shown this,PPP voters were really angry with its leadership (who ?? off corse BB and AZ co).More precisely it turned out to be a kind of boycott of elections by PPP voters against PPP leadership
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