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Filed Under Meray Mutabiq
May 5, 2008
May 5, 2008
Meray Mutabiq - 5 May 2008
Dr. Shahid Masood with a fresh episode of Meray Mutabiq on current developments.
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203 Responses to “Meray Mutabiq - 5 May 2008”
cheers men. and women
a bit slow and boring programme today…..no ?
Mulla!
Very interesting program. Thanks for bringing ANP leadership for open and honset views.
@admin
Bolta Pakistan?? please ….
Admin,
Will you be uploading today’s ‘Bolta Pakistan’ and Live with Talat’ ?
@dr
awesome! It’s for the premium members as well because admin hasn’t uploaded any video other than Shahid Masood.
After listening to Afrasayab Khattak I have respectable feelings for ANP leadership, they are sincere and honest with their cause and with the people. Whereas PPP being the biggest party is working on self interest…their leadership sucks…Zardari is a devil in disguise…bloody rogue!
heard afrasyab for the first time,seems very honest man.
@ God tha failed
You are absolutely right about PPP, but I disagree with you on ANP. ANP’s politics revolves around ethnicity. They have never accepted themselves as a part of pakistan. This is a long debate, but it should be made clear that the ANP conducts politics on ethnic grounds, as it is evident from their stance on the name of NWFP. They want to name it after an ethnic clan, undermining the various other ethnicities in that province. I really have concerns with them being in power.
@admin
This is today’s program for which the free version has been uploaded.. There are 3 days old programs “Live with Talat” etc which are still NOT open… Could you be courteous enough to inform us when will this process get streamlined??
If the free version can’t be uploaded after 24 hours, I request you to remove the caption to wait 24 hours to watch the program for free…
Thanks!
regardless of the politics of ANP, one must admit that Pakhtun politicians are much more civilized, straightforward and honest than Punjabi and Sindhi politicians. compare them with shujaat, wasi zafar(yes the public ball-scratcher), arbab ghulam(remember the journalist slapping video), zardari(10 percent), perzez elahi, jehangir badr etc. (the list is too long, i dont even want to go into it)
ofcourse there are exceptions like sher afghan, fazlu, sherpao on the one hand, and ch nisar, javed hashmi, aitzaz etc on the other.
intresting program
@ zenith
I agree with you that they get votes on ethnicity, but doesnt everyone else also play the same politics? NS-Punjab, MQM-urdu speaking, PPP-sindhi.
Its hard for me to ever praise JI but they are the only ones not based on ethnicity.
@baig_lahori
But what if you consider a beard an ethnicity of sorts?
@zenith
Alright, lets say they got votes on the basis of ethnicity, how can you prove that? ANP leadership belongs to Pakhtuns, the common man there understands their politics and has confidence in them thats why they were given so many votes, likewise, Nawaz Sharif wins big majority in Punjab always…why? Is he given votes on ethnicity just because he is a Punjabi? I think this time people have voted very wisely, the common man is becoming enlightened now, people have voted those who they think are able to solve their problems.
@baig_lahori
I agree with your views somehow. I think once the political situation in the center gets stable, provincial autonomy should be brought into serious consideration, we have lost East Pakistan already just because the mandate of the people was not accepted, we can never afford to see Pakistan divided into four small states, may Allah that never happens, ameen.
@Traffic
Wasi Zafar yes the public ball scratcher…hahahahaha!! good one
@ God that failed & baig_lahori
I respect your views; however, I think ANP elevates Bacha Khan to the level of Jinnah, which I find ridiculous, for some reasons. Firstly, he always prefered his pakhtoonism over everything else. Secondly, he wasn’t clear and coherent about what he thought of the existence of pakistan and many think that he was opposed to it. His wish to be burried in jalalabad is a testimony to that. To be very honest with you, most of our fellow pakistanis from NWFP I meet, abhor pakistan, sadly. I can understand their anger; however, blaming pakistan for their worries is unfair, as people from their ethnicity have contributed to this predicament of pakistan, but as I said its a long debate. What concerns me is that a party that sees paktoonism above all, can be detrimental to pakistan’s survival. In his whole interview, did Afrasyab even mention ayub Khan’s betrayal?( hope he remembers him tomorrow), Why? may be that pakhtoon brotherhood came in the way.
wonderful program, read between the lines and explains the present situation perfectly. The more things change the mre they stay the same.
Jinnah was the biggest scum on earth……let alone comparing him with great bacha khan……A guy for the sake of becoming governor general….opted to go for bangladeshi side….refusing to take the side towards delhi….just because he didn’t have support there….
This was the bone of contention…..over partition…..
Paktoons were the one who fought before and after the creation of pakistan….Kashmir is the testimony to that….
If you really wanna know about the truth…Go Study international History…
Not Mutala Pakistan!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Only a genious like jinah create a country….which is divided intro two parts….in oder to go to other side of pakistan,…..U have to ask permission from INDIA!!!! Because he’s in the middle….
What kinda of National Hero will create such a pakistan out of india???
A guy who is just interested to be governor general of pakistan….
One last thing…..Bacha Khan spent over 27 years in jail….before and after creation of Pakistan….
How many days jinnah went to jail for????
0
Jinnah rehmat ullah aleyh did not create any thing….he surfed and was found fit for governance……
bacha khan spent 27 years in jail for reasons known only to him…if he wanted to he could have avoided it….
and cursing Jinnah or any one else is not really a good trend…I have studied Jinnah and found him to be a great human being ………
Bacha Khan was pissed off by a molvi and was insulted, which got him upset….
Mulla!
@ diamondcut
Your comments reflect your intolerance towards a healthy debate. I too can abuse all I want, but this isn’t right. As far as your Bacha Khan is concerned, to be honest with you he was awarded India’s highest civilian award , the bharat ratna, as he always came up with something that went against Pakistan, his affiliations with afghanistan and inflammatory speeches, inciting hatred against pakistan are a well-known fact. He used to think that Pakhtuns are the most gifted and exalted race on earth, and the rest are useless. His pakhtoonism had precedence over all.
As far as your point of bangladesh is concerned, it was brought about by a pashtun called Ayub Khan, who in my opinion played a vital role in disintegration of Jinnah’s Pakistan.
if we want to see pakistan we must avoid these issues, who was right and who was wrong, its time that we all be united to keep Pakistan. As it is now.. LONG LIVE PAKISTAN. PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
Again problem is,you are talking from what u have studied via MUTALA PAKISTAN…….
Question of your so called Jinnah….It was bacha khan’s party that was in power and they were the one who accepted NWFP as a part of pakistan…The conflict was the way it was divided….Bacha Khan’s idea was to take land towards delhi as a one part and give few years time for muslims and hindus to peacefully go to their desired country of living…
After 1947,,,,just like before he was kept in jail….in order to accept their democratic right to be in power in nwfp.Because they were elected by the people of NWFP….Mr.Jinnah sent Abdul Qayyum Khan killed who hundreds of khudai khidmat gaar peaceful movement activists and took over NWFP…..
Meanwhile they kept bacha khan in jail…..
And question of getting highest award from india,he was awarded that award for working alongside Gandhi for the independence of india from British.
And guess what Pakistani regime gave him after 1947 for fighting all those years against british and spending long time in jail???
More jail and being a pakistani still deported to Afghanistan…..
Plus as a mentioned above killing his Movement activist via Abdul Qayum Khan…..
And last question of being proud of ur ethnicity….i do not see anything wrong in feeling proud of who u are….whether u are punjabi,sindhi,balochi or pathan.I feel proud to be pathan.Does anybody have a problem with it??To be honest its none of anybody’s business….
Its a pakistan feeling proud of being pakistani…..And a british comes and say..how dare u say that u are proud of ur country>??
Lastly If you really want to know about his ideas and why people in NWFP love him so much still after 50 years,,,,,Go and read history….The better way to know the history is to use 2 sources minimum….
Question of Ayub Khan…hahaha….Do u know where he was from….He was from Hazara….They use Khan but they speak hinko….
2nd Thing Ayub Khan nay kaha tha kay put india inbetween pakistan.How on earth would a normal minded person could think of putting his enemy in the middle and while you know you have to ask permission from India to go to your own country….I haven’t heard of a creation of such country in the history i know….
And lastly…Ayub Khan was way gone in 1966…..And Question of your 1971 partition,read history and you will know only one man who said,
Idhar hum udhar tum….You masscared poor bangladeshis in order to stay in power….
The name of that person is Bhutto,who was foreign minister before 1970 election and refused to hand over power to Sheikh Mujeeb ur rehman….
I feel as what happens in world we call Jews Conspiracy….
Here what ever happened in Pakistan….Search for anyone who’s last name is Khan…
@diamondcut: “”Go and read history….The better way to know the history is to use 2 sources minimum”
Being an outsider myself, If I can suggest something, it would be more constructive if you could suggest a few books instead of just telling us.. sometimes people don’t read history because they don’t know which one’s they should read to put things in context.
I must admit your comment earlier sent me on a quest to find a copy of Wali Khan’s book, but only because I saw it by chance on the Frontier Post website.
What we need is “A Pakistani’s Alternative Reading list” because I agree with you, this Mutala Pakistan is the biggest atrocity inflicted upon the minds of our young and impressionable.. It makes us MENTAL RETARDS as far as history and perspectives are concerned (no offence to mental retards).
@Diamondcut: actually having east/west wings gave pakistan a strategic and tactical edge over india (if we wanted one).. lekin jin baaNdrooN ki mat maari gaie ho voh kiaa kareNgay “sturteegik ejj” kaa?
These idiots wouldn’t recognize a strategic opportunity if it came up and bit them on their ar5es! and believe me.. we are the most strategic nation in our friggin HEMISPHERE.. but what does our ruling “elite” khota’s exchange it for? A TiRANCHE of 200 million every 2 years at 38% interest.
WTFF!!
@ diamondcut
what I feel is that you have been reading way to many heorics of pakhtoons. I couldn’t care less about what bacha khan did or say. When you lambaste a leader you should expect a retaliation. I dont need your Mutala-e- Pakistan to understand the delusion being created by the pashtoon leaders of pakistan being a failed state. Every now and then, an acrid remark criticizing the foundations of pakistan comes from these so called pashtoon nationalist leaders. They are as much to blame as others for pakistan’s plight.
As far as your analysis of the 1971 disaster is concerned, the divisions were incipient during Ayub tyrant’s rule and bhutto was the final nail in the coffin. Bhutto never said idher hum ider tum, it was coined by some nosy reporter, ( a reporter that was invited in some episode of bolta pakistan as well) ; however, this doesnot give bhutto a clean slate. We remember General Tikka khan , General Amir abdullah Khan Nizazi, and Yahya Khan ( of persian-pushtoon descent). We remember all afghan invaders who eliminated many a races just to cling to power. Yes be proud of your ethnicity, after all mass murderers should be proud of everything they do.
@TK
I won’t recommend you great history books , but advise you to go back to school and read the mooN-kala pakistan again and then compare it with
this
http://www.ncert.nic.in/book_publishing/NEW BOOK 2007/class12/History Part II/contents.pdf
You would know how a “new history” was created by the army in 60’s. And remember NJ , Mughal emperors “Namaz bhee aik nahin choortay thay aur bhai bhee aik nahin”
Read the “Theme Nine - Kings and Chronicals” , in fact it is not a bad idea to read the whole book, I find this book very interesting.
@peja: thanks for the link dude. really interesting.. please tell me our HEC at least bothered to create pdf versions of all text books so students who can would download?
But at least we got missiles as big as them and our jurnails have 10 times as many cars as each indian jurnail.
oh ji baRi t’rakki kar gaie ji!
this should answer @fas as to the crimes of the faujistani-kleptocracy against the people of Pakistan at the behest of their foreign masters.
@peja: they have a retarded system.. they should just put the whole pdf there as well. I can’t download chapters in safari
@ Zenith about General Yahya Khan, General Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi, General Ayub Khan…..
I don,t undertsand keh yeh generalz tu sarey Pukhtoono ke kaatey main daley jatey hai Lekan aur bhee tu buhut saary khan hai e.g.
Imran Khan (Imran Khan Niazi)
Abdul Qadeer Khan
Liaqat Ali Khan
Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan
aur pata nahin kahan kahan ke khan….Gozarish yeh hai keh Afghan nasal porey South Asia main phela hua hai….Afghanese ruled Subcontinent for almost 300 years (Glorious era of Sher Shah Soori)
Kasur, Jhang, Sahiwal, Chakwal, Lahore, Karachi, Rawalpindi aur beshomaar cities hain na sirf Pakistan balkey India aur Bangladesh main bhee jahan log apney namo ke saath Khan lekhtey hai….Gozarish yeh hai keh har Khan nam ke bandey ko “Pukhtoon” ke katey main na daala jaye,,,,Otherwise aur bhee buhut sey khan hai, Like Nawab Saleem ullah Khan, Sir Agha Khan, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan etc etc
@zenith et al: guys I don’t think race really has much to do with our problem.. identity definitely does but that is because we tried to bulldoze local identities for some fake-as$ identity that even the ruling class didn’t believe in…
result has been failure after failure and defeat upon defeat! it is not because a pathan did this or a punjabi did that bad thing.. it is the kleptocracy which is a good mix (with some ethnic bias.. but I won’t get into it)
@hashtanagar
“”Afghanese ruled Subcontinent for almost 300 years (Glorious era of Sher Shah Soori)
“”
wat??
u mean sher shah soori ruled for 300 years??? kitni umar thi us ki BTW??
i think sher shah soori ruled for 5 years.
please corrrect if igot it wrong.
thanks
@diamondcut
I protest on your comments regarding Jinnah sahib.
You are advising every one to read history but I think it is you who needs some better historical perspective to compare Jinnah sb with Bacha Khan aka Sarhadi Gandhi.
Stanley Wolpert describes Jinnah as one of the greatest political leaders of the 20st century, remember he has written well researched and scholarly biograhpies of Jinnah,Gandhi, Nehru and Bhutto. He says few leaders have changed the course of history, Jinnah not only did that, in addition he changed the geographical map of the world, by carving a new state- Pakistan. Wolpert considers Jinnah as the tallest politician and statesmen among his contemporaries.
He was offered to become the governor general of united India but he refused. Power was never an end for him, it was only a mean to attain the ultimate goal of safe guarding the rights of muslims in India.
It was not Jinnah but Nehru who was responsible for the partition of India by rejecting Cabinet misson plan, because in Jinnah’s presence he was insecure.
And do you know Jinnah actually encouraged Suharwardy to negotiate with his fellow hindu bengalis to attain an independent Bengal with Calcutta as capital.
And your contention that it was (bacha khan and khuai khidmadgars) who accepted NWFP as a part of pakistan…is wrong. Pakhtoonkhwa became a part of Pakistan as a result of a referendum in which people decieded to join Pakistan against Bacha Khan’s wishes. Thts why perhaps that Bacha khan chose to be buried in Jalalabad, Afghanistan and not Charsadda, Pakistan.
And for your information Ayub Khan was a TAREEN pathan living in hinko belt .
You statement “…Ayub Khan was way gone in 1966…..” tells how well versed you are with the history of Pakistan.
And lastly you said “I feel as what happens in world we call Jews Conspiracy….
Here what ever happened in Pakistan….Search for anyone who’s last name is Khan…”
To some researchers Pashtoons are the “Twelveth lost tribe” of the Jews.
A mere coincidence perhaps.
@ TK
Thats exactly what I mean. The problem is that no one is ready to accept mistakes rather they persist upon them. For instance the establishment in pakistan is a confluence of every race residing in pakistan, but still some these pashtoons or whatever don’t admit.
@hashtnagar
You forget to mention Changaiz khan, Halako khan, Kublai khan.
By the way isnt “Khan” a title and not an ethnic name.
I mentioned that Afghans ruled subcontinent for almost 300 years…Not Sher Shah Soori….I just said that Sher Shah Soori era was aglorious one…
@hashtanagar
You forgot to tell how oppressive and brutal those afghan regimes were. Muslims in punjab and some parts of sindh suffered the most at the hands of people like Shah zaman, abdali and others. Saaray khan nahi dalta bhai, jin jin kay aap nay naam liye hain saaray pakistan kee wajah say hee aagay nikalay hain, lekin jo log pakistan ko gaali thatay hain oon say bara munafiq nahi hai. Because if one lives under the shelter of pakistan, should try to make it stronger rather than presenting it as a failed experiment and at the same time pulling one’s hand out of it and potraying oneself as a member of an oppressed nationality that never had anything to contribute to pakistan’s current woeful plight.
Who issued the first PCO (Provisional Constitutional Order) in Pakistan?
Who ammended the constitution in person for the first time in Pakistan?
And
Who used those ammendments to dissolve an elected government in Pakistan?
I appreciate you remember Shah zaman and others….
But Also remember Pani-pat War….Where Ahmed Shah Abdali came to help muslims just because Shah Wali ullah sent him a letter to come for help.
And also remember that “Fatima Jinnah’s” was supported by Khan Abdul Wali Khan against General Ayub Khan and her election campaign was run by Wali Khan and his party. The first “Jalsa” of her campaign was held in Peshawar. At that time Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was the secretary general of Ayub Khan,s “Convention League”.
Typical pakistani racist mentality…..If you have read my comments properly you would have seen i mentioned name abdul qayum khan who killed so many khudai khidmat gar…..Abdul qayum was pathan as well …does that make us acceptable….he is the most hated figure of old tyrants.Whether qayum ayub or yahya…whoever did wrongs….does not mean we accept it in whole….My point was the it was from the creation of pakistan till now….its dictatorial rulers from Jinnah to musharraf….who conspire to be the in the power….Jinnah sent abdul qayum khan to snub Khudai khidmat ghar.So that no other political movement come for a competition…..What happened afterwards??
Liaquat Ali khan conspired to kill jinnah to get powers….and then sikander mirza….to ayub and yahya….and bhutto conspired to keep sheikh mujeeb from power….and then from bhutto to zia ul haq…..and our last and i hope the very tyrant…Musharaff…..
We haven’t started accepted the mandate of others….Lets all Pray this whole dirty game which was started by jinnah to musharraf comes to an end….Regardless of who those people were….from jinnah to musharraf….
Lastly if u put a person in jail for 27 years…deport him from his own country…just because he’s threat to your political career…The wording he used was if they are not accepting our right to be a part of pakistan lets have our own afghanistan….
Comparing this to current situation where baloch and tribal people are literary killing pakistani security forces eye for an eye…
You can’t take out a single instance where he asked for any violence in return of what ever happened to him or his activists(worst killed ).
Any guy who would like to pass a test of 27 years in jail plus deportation from his own country….i would like to see him how he reacts…..
Dont forget First Martial Law- Ayub Khan
Second - Yayha khan( of persian- pushtoon descent
Remember Tikka khan i hope.
Now for Abdali, he came to to salvage another crumbling empire , but in actuality his eyes glinted at seeing the grandeur and all his successors plundered, as did most of our beloved afghan warriors did under the pretext of Islam. Same parallel can be drawn, when now our mullahas are doing the same, so you see where its coming from. Drugs, prostitution, tribal warefare, lawlessness and other vices are an extension to this wonderful tradition founded by them. If you read history, you will find out how muslims pleaded ranjit singh to liberate them from afghan regimes and he did.
Yes, they did support Fatimah jinah the sister of the founder of a country they reluctantly accept.
This is a useless and inutile debate; therefore all should admit they have been wrong and get on with it.
Dont forget First Martial Law- Ayub Khan
Second - Yayha khan( of persian- pushtoon descent
Remember Tikka khan i hope.
Now for Abdali, he came to to salvage another crumbling empire , but in actuality his eyes glinted at seeing the grandeur and all his successors plundered, as did most of our beloved afghan warriors did under the pretext of Islam. Same parallel can be drawn, when now our mullahas are doing the same, so you see where its coming from. Drugs, prosti1ution, tribal warefare, lawlessness and other vices are an extension to this wonderful tradition founded by them. If you read history, you will find out how muslims pleaded ranjit singh to liberate them from afghan regimes and he did.
Yes, they did support Fatimah jinah the sister of the founder of a country they reluctantly accept.
This is a useless and inutile debate; therefore all should admit they have been wrong and get on with it.
@diamondcut
Abdul Quyyum khan was a…. Kashmiri and not a pashtoon.
Your blind hatred for Jinnah sb would thwart any and all efforts of reconciliation, putting Jinnah sb at par with musharraf is blasphemy. You are comparing the father of the nation with a s0n of @ gun.
Ayub, Yahya and Army were responsible for dismemberment of Pakistan and not Bhutto.
I have great respect for the house of Bacha khan specially Asfandyar and I admire their policy of non violence but please remember “facts are facts”.
@ diamondcut
Yes, he should have been the prez of USA.
Calling him Father of Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a slap on the whole nation….No one see him praying once and he couldn’t speak any local language.And please go check history when he went inside Badhsahi Masjid with his shoes.And a person literary had to stop him asking to remove his shoes because waha namaz horahi thi….
And another person called him biggest leader of 20th century.
In the Top 100 people of 20th Century his name does not exist.
To be honest i would have been amazed if they included his name for creating a country in two parts and in the middle is ur enemy….
And another person said as this was to give pakistan an edge over india…I think we have seen that edge in form of surrender.The whole supply line was cut off and they were at the mercy of indian army.
And remember from Khudai khidmat ghar to Asfandar yali the generation,they have never accepted a military regime unlike the whole politicians of pakistan.
i left it to independent people to decide whether delhi option was better or the bangladesh…and who was the gaddar
@ diamondcut
Jinnah was the greatest leader, who cares what you think. As far as your kuhdai kidmat gaar or whatever is concerned, history remembers them as people who craved for popularity and attention, but never got any.
@Diamondcut
yes…I agree with commoner, Khan Qayum Khan was Kashmiri…Not Pukhtoon
I would like to add more.
Khan Qayum Khan served for 13 years as personal lawyer of Bacha khan.
Qayum khan also wrtoe a book in admiration of khudai khidmatgar tehreek and Bacha Khan…It was long before Qayum become LOTA.
The conspiracy against bacha khan and khudai khidmatgar tehreek started soon after abolishemnt of FCR in NWFP (Pukhtoonkhwa) in 1935…
After creation of Pakistan the NWFP assembly was dissolved inspite of the absolute majority of Bacha khan party (33 seats out of 50)….
Qayum khan was made Chief Minister….And then waht Qayum Khan did, is mentioned several times above.
@Zenith
@Zenith
The First PCO (Provisional Constitutional Order) in Pakistan was issued by Jinnah.
The first constitutional ammendment was made by Jinnah in person…A dictator.
Drugs, prosti1ution, tribal warefare, lawlessness is a gift from Pakistan to NWFP and FATA. The jihadee camps and klashincov culture was introduced by pakistani establishment.
And its a fact that many of you (rajputs, chohans, ranay, etc etc) are extensions of Hindus….
I don,t understand how Jinnah was a great leader…He founded an Islamic state…But he never went to jail…never beaten and never slapped…On the other hand many leaders were slaughtered by british rulers. Mr Jinnah’s wife was a Farsi, Mr Jinnah used to eat pork and drink openly. Its ridiculous to declare him as a great leader and founder of an Islamic state. He even was not able to speak the language of his nation.
Infact Mr Jinnah was a british agent…British and America were and are allies….They needed a territory to be used against Russia….To plan Jihad factories and “Save Islam Movement”…I wonder, pakistan creation movement was resisted by Jumat-e-islami and JUI too but how these islamists and Nawaz shareef and army establishment are the stars of eyes of each other.
all this game was played on the land of pukhtoons…..
Those know whose beloved ones and their homes were destroyed by ameciran missiles and bombs….No media coverage no news….
@zenith
I probably support your views to some extent but not the way you
present them. In my humble opinion you are just a victim of the
propaganda against spread against Pukhtoons, not questioning why
would the people whose ancestors laid their lives for Pakistan
can ever be against it. All pakhtoons want to be part of
pakistan, but most people just rely on a few “suni sunayi batain”
and hence their views are already biased.
It is this attitude, which divided pakistan in 71 and now the
same adamant attitude that is going to take away balochistan as
well (God forbid)
We should have some tolerance when presenting our views or
contradicting others’.
Although I protest the way Diamondcut talked about Jinnah,
nevertheless I found that his arguments were based on profound
reality. On that note, as per my information, Jinnah was
initially in favor of Bacha Khan but was tricked by Abdul Qayum
Khan.(shall talk about this later with refernces)
One reason that we find some hatred in pashtoons towards pakistan
is the injustices commited against them by Government of
Pakistan, much in the same way as Balochis are being treated.
Members of Pakhtoon leadership were never given a chance to
explain their stand point to a nationwide media.
Now, you can read the comments of Pakistanis on this forum
regarding Afrasyab Khattak and Asfandyar Wali, that how their
views about Pukhtoon leadership have changed. However, most of us
still see them with the same biased viewpoint that was the result
of the propaganda of past.
Calling Jinnah a father of nation is a joke….for Mutala Pakistan lovers….
I respect your love for jinnah but respect others to speak their mind about him as well…..
and Zenith….If you love him fairenough…. but do make our(nation) father,,,,
I won’t want to be associated with a guy who does not know you have to take your shoes off before entering mosque and whos daughter run away with parsi……
Aap ka bapu aap ko hi mubarak ho!!!
Same old mullah mentality. Who is asking anyone to be the guardian of the faith of islam. Every vice generates from that part. Extremist mullhas all are a product of the army establishment and the pashtoons. People their have to understand that they have played a part in destablizing my country. Crime and lawlessness is a part of their culture now, its a fact that cannot be negated. Talking of bacha khan, the most self-centered and greedy human being to have lived in that part of the world, as he always thought of the pashtoon race. I guess the time has finally come, for everyone to decide something serious. Countless pashtoons live in punjab, but are not discriminated against, on the other hand hatred for punjab and ultimately for pakistan is very evident in their lands.
@diamondcut: I respect your right to voice your opinion but I think you’re stepping on a lot of tails and frankly your argument is just as emotional if not more than the ones you accuse of “oppressing” you or your people.
Also, IMO, one shoud practice what one preaches, if you think people are naive or stuck in “mutala pakistan” then at least help them out with a couple books or articles to read. I know google can be helpful, but I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from.
I havent’ seen a single reading suggestion from you. Should I assume you’re venting hot air? which is fine in itself, but It certainly doesn’t make your “cause” look very good.
From a third party perspective, I don’t see your arguments any better than the one’s being used against you (which you deride for various reasons enumerated above — yours could be derided for almost the same reasons)…
The reason for bengal wasn’t strategic advantage, I said “it _could_ have been used”.. the reasons were myriad and I have my own doubts but I don’t think berating M.A. Jinnah serves any constructive purpose. Educate people and then complain.. not before.
just a suggestion.
@hashtnagar: I think Jamat Islami and Jamiat Ulema Hind are on record having opposed Pakistan and declaring M.A. Jinnah “kaafir” for almost the same reasons you and others have mentioned (drinking…etc..)
You can be pol pot in pakistan.. as long as you “don’t drink”.. WTF!
@zenith
Its nothing to do with mullahism….The problem iam having is imposing ur jinnah on all pakistan as father of pakistan…..
I have no problem ur love for him but atleast respect our opinion as well…..
do not impose him on us….U want him to be ur father…..Ba-sad-e-Khushi…Par humay tou na marwao….
Question of educating others….i think internet has made this thing quite easy…..www.google.com……cheers…:D
@diamondcut: tell me more about this “googull” that you speak of! I’m all ears!
@Zenith: check this out: http://anp.org.pk/publications.shtml (especially Facts are sacred — I think it’s a well researched book).
you do not need ears for that….i think you have pc and luckily internet and basic know how of surfing….so type google.com…
@ diamondcut
Whose imposing? Don’t like him, fine, but plz stop potraying your great champion bacha khan as the most innocent soul ever. I think we would have much better off, if SARHAD had been part of our duplicitous western neighbor( which has always been their wish, I might add). A lot of blackmailing could have been avoided. Jinnah made a huge mistake by including SARHAD in pakistan. Just a thought people have the right to disagree.
@Diamondcut
Seconding TK here, I would also like to know the titles of books that are sources of your information. Yes I can use google and I tried but my internet skills are not so good. Could you please send some link?
@Salman Saeed: Mr. Diamond Cut’s “AaeeN BaaeN ShaeN” leads me to believe he’s talking out of his hat.
@diamondcut
Very disappointed to read your comments!!!
Mr.Jinnah, a person hand picked by Iqbal to lead the struggle for Muslims of India. All other great leaders were around but Iqbal knew he was the right man for this cause!! and look at the kind of analysis Mr.Diamondcut is doing. They are very similar to the ones made by the Mullahs about Mr.Jinnah during the struggle!
Whatever his shortcoming be but Mr. Jinnah was atleast not a Munafiq!!!
read a book “Haqaiq Haqaiq hai”
This book is a collection of all the independent historian…
90% questions to your answers you could easily get it from….
I hope it will help….And all the references in this booked can be checked….
Its hawai firing as u were trying to suggest….
If you do not know something…does not mean the whole world tou hawai firing kar rahi hai…..
And zenith you are saying you are not imposing anything…But look at ur message….any unbiased can see your typical “Kuwway walay maindak” approach…u do not want to see the outside world…nor u can bear some one discussing it….
Kash you would have read about last few years of Our Great Iqbal…And his views about Jinnah….Please read your history
@ diamondcut
I guess the explaination you just gave me, is in actuality a perfect description of your demeanor. You stick to your facts and I will to mine. Plz dont say OUR Iqbal, he is an honorary pakistani and a big name, controversial though! thanks for not linking him back to some old pashtoon ancestory. Fact remains, I believe NWFP’s inclusion was a colossal mistake and will haunt pakistan.
CIAO
Your attitude is such childish…May God mercy on you!!!
To further strengthen and support arguments given by “Diamondcut”…
The link for “Facts are facts” is as follows:
http://www.awaminationalparty.org/books/factsarefacts.pdf
“Dare to read” and don,t just write crap in return…but go for the references given in the book.
Most of the facts given in the book are taken from “India Office Library, :ondon”….because according to british law, after a lapse of 30-years period, every document becomes public property.
India Office Library, London
Thanks hashtnagar….soon as i gave them reference of book….All of sudden zenith and tk disappeared…No one is talking now about educating them…..woh kehtay hai na Mullah ki dour masjid tak
@diamondcut: bro I didn’t run away.. if you see the timestamps and read the comments above I have already mentioned this book 2 hours before your “revelation” ..
So? thats it? that’s all the reading you’ve done? You mentioned the “urdu version” and @hashtnagar mentioned the same book in english.. without realizing it’s the same dang book?
have you even read the book? who wrote it? do you know? :-p
@ diamondcut
What makes you think I have run away? I had better things to do. I saw your comment and came back to reply. By the way the book you so proudly mentioned is nothing but a collection of tempered with documents. Who knows what they have done during all these years. We are so inspired by the british whatever they say is agreeable to us.
Now Bacha khan, If you are so fond of him, go and fight with your afghan or pashtoon brothers instead of wasting time here. GO fight for your rights. Let me make it clear to you, NWFP and its people are with pakistan under compulsion, as they themselves are landlocked and a separate homeland will not be in their favor.
Lastly, I would love to have unity in my country, but the attitudes intolerance extended by people such as yourself have convinced me that this is a fallacy.
@zenith…Its like mein na manoo….British pagal hai na apni tazhik karwa rahay hai….Its not ur fault,u think every country in the world write a history like Mutala Pakistan….Question of being part of pakistan,No body has ultimate right over pakistan.So keep ur racist mentality and thought as if u are the one to decide kisnay pakistan mein rehna hai as if you have brought them together.Question of fighting for our rights,well Allah Ka karam hai ANP is in Power.So our rights are represented….
@diamondcut @hashtnagar
Can you recommend any independent research work or impartial historical account to corroborate the assertion made by Wali Khan in “Facts are Facts”. Otherwise it is like a Tableegi jamaat walla recommending “Tableeghi Nisaab” , as the only source of truth.
@ Commonor @Zenith
you mentioned earlier:
Stanley Wolpert describes Jinnah as one of the greatest political leaders of the 20st century, remember he has written well researched and scholarly biograhpies of Jinnah,Gandhi, Nehru and Bhutto.
And
When Wali khan give references in his book from many books written by english people (India office library)….you said its a tempered one….
Its hypocracy….If you someone english or other praised jinnah…its good but if someone else give references in his book from the same people, then you say its a temepered book….
Anyways you Punjabis and Muhajirs itself are following ethnic sort of politics….
Remind Nawaz Shareef election campaign in his earlier two PMship…
“JAAG PUNJABI JAAG” naara tha Nawaz shareef ka…. Its on record, Punjabism ko strengthen karney karney ki liye “Punjabi language” ko as an elective subject study karney walo ko out of 100 90 and 95 marks miltey thay…. Its what ethnic politics is.
@ Zenith
By the way the book you so proudly mentioned is nothing but a collection of tempered with documents. Who knows what they have done during all these years. We are so inspired by the british whatever they say is agreeable to us.
OK if you consider books only written by british OR someone else then:
Read a book by Sir Olaf Caroe, “The Pathan”
Also read a book “Bacha Khan and Khudai Khidmatgaar tehreek” by Khan Qayum Khan.
BTW its your beloved Khan Qayum Khan who tried by any mean to slaughter Pukhtoons….HE was appointed by Muslim League for this Job…soon after the creation of Pakistan.
@commoner: Can you identify ’suspect’ pages in FaF which you think need reviewing or which have suspect refrences. I’m certainly not trying to defend diamondcut and hashtnagar, but I thought Wali Khan (despite not being an academic researcher) wrote a book with honest intentions (despite amaturish research — I merely say this based on the fact that he was not a trained historian/scholar but a politician).
Also, @zenith, I think before you accuse india office library of “fudging” facts.. let us not forget that these “kuffars” at least do not engage in wholesale chaning of historical facts. That is because when a nation lies to itself (by changing history) it only hurts itself and it’s future prospects. This is the reason they wait 30 or 50 years before making the things public.. (also shows you how far reaching their decisions are - they think)
Only the IDIOTS in Pakistani kleptocracy think that they can make sh!t up on history and feed it to young impressionable students without any consequence. And then they are surprised when confused as hell 20 year olds are going around wearing wests blowing themselves up.
@TK
It is very interesting that first thought that comes to mind of any Pakistani while reading history is that “somebody must have tempered it” , this shows the inner sense of guilt that we have, since we know we did temper our history.
BTW on the topic of history I recall Aitzaz Ahsan has a book “Indus Saga” anybody have it on scribd?
Don’t bash the history writers. Our history was tempered for a REASON. We need to see it in context.
The subject of geography used to be very difficult. Students had to memorize where Sylhet, Chittagong and Jumna rivers were. Total waste of time. Thank God the Army made the subject of geography very easy after 1971 war.
Sadly, the subject of history became even more difficult.
But no problem MooNkala Pakistan to the rescue!!! Now history AND geography are easy. I think our geography is about to get even easier, thanks to Musharraf and MQM.
I have read Indus Saga, a very interesting book by Aitezaz Ahsan.
His main thesis is that Pakistan is a natural country and would have been a separate country instead of being a partof India even if Islam had not come into thsi region.
Intriguing thesis and quite acceptable.
@pejamistri: I’ve been looking for “indus saga” on scribd but can’t find it. .. btw, the history _has_ been tampered with.. scholarship has been tampered with and if you don’t believe me.. just take a look at the textbooks being read in AFghanistan. I think for the last 25 or so years.. generations of Afghans have been growing up on text books “designed” in University of Iowa (or some such).
@Adonis
I read Indus Saga around before I finished High School. Very interesting thesis and also plausible. What AA was trying to do, without saying that in so many words, was to replace Zia’s “Nazriya-e-Pakistan”, with the cultural strings which have bound the people of Balochistan, Sindh, Punjab and Pakhtunkhwa together. (I am loving that Pakhtunkhwa thing btw. Rolls off the tongue naturally.)
I have issues with the historic reality of the work though. That is, it does not have a lot of historical reality. It is, at best, a political proposal to sell to the masses in the future. A new concocted identity for the masses. A noble idea nonetheless.
Pakistan can be divided into two strips Iranic and Indic. The Iranics are Baloch and Pashtoons, Indics are Kashmiris, Punjabis, Seraikis and Sindhis. The Iranic Pakistanis speak languages that come from proto-Indo Iranian and the Indic Pakistanis speak languages that come from proto-Indo Aryan. Before Islam, there was LESS cultural affinity between the Indics and Iranics as compared to within different groups of Indics or Iranics.
But after Islam came here, the two branches came into frequent and intimate contact. Baloch settled in Punjab and Sindh. Punjabis settled in Sindh and Balochistan. Pakhtoons settled in Punjab. In my Seraiki speaking area, we have Seraiki speaking Pakhtoons (Tareens) and Seraiki speaking Baloch (Kohsas). Khosa are very interesting, they are also in Sindh where they call themselves Khoso. The Bhattis of Punjab are the same as Butts and Bhuttas. Bhuttas become Bhuttos in Sindh.
This cultural, racial and ethnic hodge podge is what AA hopes to make the cornerstone of a new Pakistan.
But the Molvis and other Khali Lifafahs pounced on him for negating the Nazriya-e-Pakistan. Perhaps nobody told these zombies that the words Nazriya-e-Pakistan did not exist before Zia.
Aah…The fate of a Molvi and his zombies. To forever go round and round in circles thinking they are getting ahead (or in some cases, 1400 years behind.)
@TK
“generations of Afghans have been growing up on text books “designed” in University of Iowa (or some such).”
Whatchoo talkin about?
to second mr. b, the indian parthian kingdom, the arab emirate of multan/sindh, also (more or less) corresponded with modern pak. borders..
@mbokhari: hey I’m really liking your description of Iranic & Indic and their interminglings etc.! good Stuff! and Pukhtunkhwa does roll off the tongue naturally eh? I have made it a policy to remember to call that area with its proper name (Pukhtunkhwa!)
Pukhtunkhwa! Pukhtunkhwa! Pukhtunkhwa! and I’m not even Pukhtun (Jatt and Baloch but in Punjab)
Regarding the afghan syllabus I’ve heard it on some TV program that all the Afghans in the camps during the first Afghan War (of the 1980’s) were being taught off primers that were designed in some midwestern American university and it had sh!t like “Mim for Mujahid” , “Khain for Khanjar”, “Kaaf for Klashankov”.. (NO JOKE)
I also suspect that our american meddlers have been tinkering with the Pakistani syllabuses for a long time now.
I only found this link in a hurry:
Violent Textbooks complicate Afghan Education Efforts
@TK
“Regarding the afghan syllabus ….”
Here’s the WP story on the issue. The full headline WP (”From U.S., the ABC’s Of Jihad; Violent Soviet-Era Textbooks Complicate Afghan Education Efforts.”) is intentionally misleading because though these were distributed in the “Soviet-Era”, they were distributed by the US.
“Published in the dominant Afghan languages of Dari and Pashtu, the textbooks were developed in the early 1980s under an AID grant to the University of Nebraska-Omaha and its Center for Afghanistan Studies. The agency spent $51 million on the university’s education programs in Afghanistan from 1984 to 1994….
…”The pictures [in] the texts are horrendous to school students, but the texts are even much worse,” said Ahmad Fahim Hakim, an Afghan educator who is a program coordinator for Cooperation for Peace and Unity, a Pakistan-based nonprofit.
An aid worker in the region reviewed an unrevised 100-page book and counted 43 pages containing violent images or passages.
The military content was included to “stimulate resistance against invasion,” explained Yaquib Roshan of Nebraska’s Afghanistan center. “Even in January, the books were absolutely the same . . . pictures of bullets and Kalashnikovs and you name it.”
During the Taliban era, censors purged human images from the books. One page from the texts of that period shows a resistance fighter with a bandolier and a Kalashnikov slung from his shoulder. The soldier’s head is missing. ….
Oops! link: THE ABC’S OF JIHAD IN AFGHANISTAN
@nota: thanks.. I was too lazy to look for the article
@TK
“Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code.”
In this SINGLE sentence, you can read the whole history of the Afghan Jihad. The Talitubbies kept the kill/murder parts but erased the human parts. They kept the Jihad but started killing Muslims when the last Kafirs left. They kept brainwashing children in schools but taught them suicide bombing in mosques….
What a twisted dystopian version of Islam…..
BTW, the Americans need not have done it. The tribals of Afghanistan were enough to do it to themselves. I really hope you have read the recent history of Afghanistan. Bacha Saqao, Amir Amanullah Khan and all the bloody lot. How they killed millions of Hazaras, millions of Tajiks and millions of Pakhtoons when they rebelled. Fortunately this Barbarian nature helped them defeat the British. One whole regiment was killed after they had been promised safety but then ambushed in the mountains. There is a terrific poem about it. Just can’t find it. Ah. Here it is by Kipling (again)
If your officer’s dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it’s ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
They have always been savages and always will be. Sadly, they have produced little culture, art, poetry, science, philosophy or music. What little they had was wiped out by the Wars. Afg is a model country if anybody wants to study mental disorders on a national scale….What a place!
On the other hand, our Pakhtunkhwa (this from an Israeki-speaking Punjabi Syed) is a completely different and civilized place, except FATA. What is called the Bandobasti areas, are in fact the places where the British civilized the Pakhtoons by giving them equality and justice and punished the blood feuds and vendettas. There is a book on my scribd page that I’d really recommend. Its called “The Story of Malakan Field Rifles” by Winston Churchill. The greatest British Prime Minister was posted at Malakand at that time and he makes some very petinent/accurate character studies of the Tribal Pakhtoons (sometimes Racist.)
I am going to post a paragraph or two from it when I find it on my hard drive.
@mbokhari: you’re really stepping on my tail today dude keeping mentioning the british ruffians “civilizing” the Pakhtoons..
In a general sense let me just quote Gandhi when asked what he thought of the “Western Civilization”
“It would be a good Idea” he said! hahaha!
.. I think his wish remains un-fulfilled to this day hehehe…
Also, I would’nt go so far as to say “They have already been savages”.. I think that it is a mischaracterization at best. BTW, Afghanistan, or the old Bactria has been the birthplace of the original, asli tay vaDDa mono-theism ie; Zoroastrianism (at least according to Gore Vidal)
I haven’t read much about the recent history of Afghanistan, but I noticed something long ago that almost all pivotal changes in the Muslim rulers came as a consequence of the revolts that were started in the general area commonly referred to as Afghanistan.
Also, Afghanistan and some of the cities therein Herat, Ghazni, Qandhar, Kabul etc were the stomping grounds or way-stations for some of the brightest stars in the pantheon of Islamic thinkers, philosophers, poets and scientists.
All this is based on my haphazard hearsay kind of knowledge.. I’m sure you’d be able to fill it in with the wealth of actual reading you seem to have done .. so.. bring it on! I might learn something
I meant to say “the have always been savages…”
A few excerpts from “The Story of the Malakand Field Force” [Pages 5-14]
“…Except at the times of sowing and of harvest, a continual state of feud and strife prevails throughout the land. Tribe wars with tribe. The people of one valley fight with those of the next. To the quarrels of communities are added the combats of individuals. Khan assails khan, each supported by his retainers. Every tribesman has a blood feud with his neighbor. Every man’s hand is against the other, and all against the stranger.
A code of honour not less punctilious than that of old Spain, is supported by vendettas as implacable as those of Corsica. In such a state of society, all property is held directly by main force. Every man is a soldier. Either he is the retainer of some khan–the man- at-arms of some feudal baron as it were–or he is a unit in the armed force of his village–the burgher of mediaeval history. In such surroundings we may without difficulty trace the rise and fall of an ambitious Pathan. At first he toils with zeal and thrift as an agriculturist on that plot of ground which his family have held since they expelled some former owner. He accumulates in secret a sum of money. With this he buys a rifle from some daring thief, who has risked his life to snatch it from a frontier guard-house. He becomes a man to be feared.
Then he builds a tower to his house and overawes those around him in the village. Gradually they submit to his authority. He might now rule the village; but he aspires still higher. He persuades or compels his neighbors to join him in an attack on the castle of a local khan. The attack succeeds. The khan flies or is killed; the castle captured. The retainers make terms with the conqueror. The land tenure is feudal. In return for their acres they follow their new chief to war. Were he to treat them worse than the other khans treated their servants, they would sell their strong arms elsewhere. He treats them well. Others resort to him. He buys more rifles. He conquers two or three neighboring khans. He has now become a power…”
———————————————————
Isn’t that what Mangal Bagh and Sufi Muhammad and Nek Muhammad (of belated memory) and Baitullah Mehsud are? There is another very funny character, the mad Faqir of Ipi. Some more on the mad faqir of Ipi some other time….
The basic problem and perhaps irresolvable is admitting mistakes. No one, no one is doughty enough to come out of their shells and admit their misdeeds. When it comes to pakistan’s internal problems, establishment or even better, The Punjabi establishment is slandered, as if there are no other individuals from other provinces occupying powerful seats. When someone isn’t even believing in a country’s existence, how could they be a part of that country? We still have a long long way to go, many of us can’t even take opposition, if they do, the replies are emotional. If someone doesn’t admit mistakes, that someone cannot get rid of the prochial mentality that eventually becomes a part of him. Vituperating and lambasting are the salient features of such individuals, who think the clan or tribe they belong to is infallible.
@zenith
“Vituperating and lambasting are the salient features of such individuals”
well said. That’s the best description of such haters.
@Zenith: And don’t forget L.O.S.E.R Psychopaths who think that they can pretend to be “democrats” while actually they are the worst religious slimeballs of the most despicable kind!
“well said” ??? what say you @gtp ?
@zenith
zenith on May 7th, 2008 5:57 pm The basic problem and perhaps irresolvable is admitting mistakes. No one, no one is doughty enough to come out of their shells and admit their misdeeds. When it comes to pakistan’s internal problems, establishment or even better, The Punjabi establishment is slandered, as if there are no other individuals from other provinces occupying powerful seats
though you are not wrong…however, me thinks you dilute the hold of punjabi vote bank..and thus the right to hold them chiefly responsible…did not Kh. Asif say…we lost dacca becoz punjab remained silent? (budget speech-2006-07)
but then i may be wrong…
@kafka
you are right….
btw ‘gharion se suna tum ne….’
@tk
gtp is also marina?
@gtp
btw ‘gharion se suna tum ne….’
what does the above mean?
@kafka8
Regarding your reference to Kh: Asif, He did say that, but tell me at this time, when every province, many ethnicities within these provinces are at some sort of daggers drawn with each other, blaming a smaller province could have taken us to yet another feud. Punjab has made colssal mistakes, no doubt; however, others too can’t be ignored. Every ruler, in pakistan, no matter where he came from was supported by punjab, right from ayub khan, even yayha, bhutto, zia, BB, NS to Musharraf. The reason I believe is lack of assessment abilities endowed by education and knowledge. Mostly, anyone who can scribble his/her name, is considered a Parha likha in punjab, so any tyrant rules and uses people by consorting with the elite and Allah Allah Khairsulla. I asked some people about who is the best person in pakistan, reply was Imran Khan,I asked who are you going to vote for, reply was Nawaz Sharif, again I asked who do you love, answer Benazir. So, its easy to rule there.
@TK
I agree. That’s why I posted the two poems: The white man’s burden and the brown man’s burden.
To me, there are truths in both statements. But ultimately, in order to defeat the “White Man”, we have to learn why he succeeded in the first place. This introspection is what drove Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. What made the White Man tick was also what made Jinnah and Iqbal tick. When I say the British civilized us, I mean they taught us their secrets. They could have just as made it that we remained ignorant, poor and illiterate. Something like the Arabs of Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, or the Pakhtoons of FATA. Instead, to gain better financial efficiency, and also motivated by Racist ideas of Imperialism, they taught us the skills of civilization.
The Muslims of India had a choice. They could go the Deoband way, the Mujaddad Alf Saani way, the BalakoT Shuhada way….OR they could go the way of Sir Syed, Jinnah, Iqbal, Chaudhry Rehmat Ali, Liaqat Ali…The logical and philosophical descendants of the first option are the Taliban, JUI, JI and Afghanistan. The second option leads to Pakistan, democracy, pluralism and justice….HOW WERE WE ABLE TO MAKE THAT CHOICE? Because the British let us…They did not kill and destroy the Indian intelligentsia. They educated our intelligentsia and enabled them to beat the British at their own game and get Independence in the bargain. Thats what I mean when I say the British civilized the Indians. (Because I have read history, from both perspectives, I have turned into a bit of anglophile …:-) )
No. That would be wrong. The lands of Bactria, the people of Bactria were Pakhtoons. The Pakhtoons were for most of the time between 900-1300 ruled by Turks from Centrial Asian cities like Samarkand, Kashghar and Bokhara (from whence ancestors of yours truly came)….That was the time of Ghaurids, Ghaznavids and Mameluks (Slave Dynasty)…Pakhtoons as a political force first appeared on the horizon during their revolts against the Mughals (KhushHal Khan Khattak) and then later on as Abdalis, Afshars or Durranis….Ghazni, Herat and Kabul etc were garrisons of Turks. Not cities of culture and civilization like Samarkand and Bokhara. For the most part, anyway.
I think Akhenaten from Ancient Egypt would disagree. His monotheistic religion is the OLDEST recorded evidence of any human idea of Tauheed. He rejected all the other gods like Amun and Ra and Isis and instead presented Aten. Some say even the name “Aten” meant GOD and was corrupted into “Adonai” of Hebrew (from “Shema Yisrael, Adonai, Elohim, Adonai Achad”, the kalima of Jews). That same “Adonai” became Adnan in Arabic, basically meaning Allah Rakha ….:-)
A little excerpt of his Great Hymn to Aten: The earliest Human version of the Lord’s Prayer and Surah Fatiha. I would venture to say he was a “Haneef”, a believer in monotheism. Perhaps even a Prophet. (He was 1500 years before Hazrat Musa)
The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt,
Thou settest every man in his place,
Thou suppliest their necessities:
Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned.
Their tongues are separate in speech,
And their natures as well;
Their skins are distinguished,
As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples.
The Aton of the day, great of majesty.
The world came into being by thy hand,
According as thou hast made them.
Thou art lifetime thy own self
Sorry the word was,
Colossal( 4th line)
@zenith
with great regard for your insight, my ref. to Kh. Asif was loaded…that speech was an anti-faujistanic jewel!! (and we know the demographics of this fauj)
that is…before you take the smaller provinces to task…and you may indeed…..the context of the faujistanic state should not be diluted.
@ kafka8
This is what I meant to say. Elite is a conlfuence of the top brass of the army, influential and the well-connected. Punjab, infact the entire country is their hostage, but what perplexes me is the reluctance of many people to go against the army. The reason they say is their utter weakness. Current pakistan was more of a british cantonment( mostly punjab), so our army makes hay there, as did the british. People have educated themselves to some extent in punjab, but then again, immersed themselves in western culture and kept themselves aloof from the reality of Fauji hegemony. This Judiciary issue is quite sterile there, hope it stays that way, because that might well be the only chance of breaking the shackles of the army.
@zenith
brilliant…i agree !
@kafka8
at least theres agreement somewhere!
Cheers!
@mbokhari: thanks for an informative writeup! Though I gotta say, Akhnaten’s was a cult that died out with him (the ideas _were_ floating around though) but Zorastrianism was a ‘proper’ organized monotheistic faith. And Bactria was around the time of the Buddha and stuff no?
I said afghanistan as the “stomping grounds” as it were because the “streams of Muslim thought” (and intellectuals/scholars) etc where flowing and mingling to the west of the “iranic” part of Pakistan as you mentioned in an erarlier comment. So despite being garrison cities, no doubt they were homes to governors and a sizable elite of Muslim patrons who patronized the “arts & sciences” of the day. I just remember reading about a bunch of people like Rumi Khayaam etc running around in cities of central asia and north east iran (and also some in Afghanistan) .. but yeah.. it wasn’t really the hotbed of INtellectual activities.. but it was civilized nonetheless.. (I was trying to counter the assertion “They have always been savages
I can totally see churchill describing them as such.. Amongst all the people’s they subjugated and genocidally eliminated, most were “savages”.. some were “noble” kind.. all were expendable and “killable” (to the British pirates and I consider all of the british empire a bunch of thiefs and pirates)
I’m sure you’ll have some issues with that hehehe..
In any case, thanks for the perspective!
@zenith & Kafka8
You guys are not qualified to talk about what percentage of Punjabis support who UNTIL you have read Khaled Ahmed’s superb essay “The Transformation of Punjabi Mind”
A master piece of psycho-analysis.
TK
A good exchange of views. Made me go and revisit some old stuff I had read. Especially that Churchill book. Certainly don’t wanna stretch the conversation till my head hurts :-)…Just this last post, ok?
Budha was circa 563 BCE to 483 BCE;
Zarathustra was around 1000 BCE ( /- one century).
Akhenaten’s reign—–[1353 BC – 1336 BC]
Maybe you are right. Maybe I am right. Anyhoo. I was talking about the lack of culture of tribal Pashtuns and not the cities of modern Afghanistan. The great cities of Herat, Kandahar, Ghazni etc were part of the Persian speaking society anyway. There is a different concept The Persianate World…Mughals, Ottomans and Central Asians were part of it. The Pakhtoons of Bajaur and Paktia were not. They were much like us at that time: Subjects without an imperial culture of their own.
OK. I am done
But if you have time, I’d like your take on this essay of Khaled Ahmed I just posted. “The Transformation of Punjabi Mind”
@mbokhari: hehe.. I hear ya.. I thought it was about afghans.. but for “teh pathans” it is slightly different.. especially the area you mentioned.. I overlooked it .. my bad.
Whaaa?? Budha & Zarathustra weren’t contemporaries?? DAMN YOU GORE VIDAL!!! (shakes fist at Gore Vidal’s imaginary picture) … this is what happens when you learn history from Gore Vidal’s novels! dam NIT!
oh well…
Hey thanks for the link.. let’s see how long it takes for pkLewser to run off to his little blog and write another entry against people he doesn’t have the NUTS to have a conversation with (probably because he still has an ounce of shame in him through a miracle of genetics)
@mbokhari
read the essay….so can we talk now?? are we qualified?? or do we have to be pahktunized/punjabized before we really qualify
@kafka8
Seems like my trolling worked! You read the essay!
Great Success! [Both thumbs up, stupid smile]
@zenith
“This Judiciary issue is quite sterile there [Punjab], hope it stays that way, because that might well be the only chance of breaking the shackles of the army.”
Sterile = BaaNjh, non-productive, barren, childless, impotent.
I think you may have meant
VIRILE = powerful, productive, potent, strong, valid
——–
Your local Grammar Taliban!
@mbokhari
The essay was good, but the author didn’t exactly elaborate on the feudal impact on punjab, which also constitutes the elite. Who influences people’s mentality? The sikhs are punjabis, but subordination isn’t really one of their strong points.
@mbokhari
Thanks for the correction, iam not an expert when it comes to typing and misspell many words.
@ TK
“Hey thanks for the link.. let’s see how long it takes for pkLewser to run off to his little blog and write another entry against people he doesn’t have the NUTS to have a conversation with (probably because he still has an ounce of shame in him through a miracle of genetics)”
You should be more precise and less ambiguous.
@zenith
He is talking about the Qaiday Tehreek of Monkey Trolls …:-)
Here is the hate-website dedicated to me, personally…I hope he doesn’t take it down immediately. My gf was very impressed.
@ mbokhari
I admire his comments, always give something think about.
Anyways, who made the site?
oops forgot the word TO?
I hope u forgive me.
haha….
It seems we meet again, my secret admirer Paindooo. Or Zenith Or Haqqi, or Marina, or gtp Or Zanani or Kaali Maata or Chooran Devi…..
Seems like you have dropped the seven word jantar mantar (drawing room, intellectual, pseudo-modern, well said, …..)
But you see, like a Nakli MooNch, it still slips and you reveal yourself.
@ mbokhari
What ?
@mbokhari
Man, i really have no idea what you mean. Are you trying to suggest that I made that site? I never do such things. Dont disgrace me by linking me to those thugs.
@mbokhari: hahaha “nakli mooNch”.. I laughed out loud!
Et Tu Zenith? oh boy.. (@dm_in can you post all the IP’s of @pindoo? ) … well I’ll suspend my judgement until someone confirms that you may be the same person.. (cuz in that case you’ve been having conversations with yourself … oh boy)
mbokhari & TK
Well Confirm the IP then!
Really disappointed man.
@mbkhari
does his ip confirm ur assumption??
@mbokhari
and is ‘marina’ also paindo/gtp
@dmin
I would request you to confirm my IP. My reputation is at stake here.
@mbokhari: long article but really interesting.. my head hurts now.. last few paragraphs got me:
I think he hit the nail right on the head there…but then again.. Punjab has had this “pregnable virgin” posture from time immemmorial! warriror tribes, usually from the west , lately the Afghan/Pukhtoons have been impregnating this fertile land with their “man seed” for thousands of years…
Somone on pkpolitics had mentioned that punjabis have this passive character because of them being tied to the land and being the first stop in every friggin invasion.. (I think Seraiki’s have this character too) .. Like flexible bamboo saplings they bend with the hurricane of onslaught and spring back after the storm has passed…
I think I’ll have to read it multiple times to properly understand it.. ME NOT SMART .. OOGA OOGA!
@dmin
Hello!
@tk
err…they bend like the bamboos or for the bamboos?? in pakistans context they seem to be the bamboo…
@kafka
how does the above account fit with Hanif Ramay’s Punjab Ka Muqaddama?
@TK
The Internet Crime people got back to me. It could be verrrry interesting. Please check your email. I don’t know if the ad_min will co-operate in providing us the IPs. Neither should he. He is right to maintain neutrality.
Plus it’d scare the teendoo in deleting the website. You know that ship called “USS Not Getting Any”?…..Well, I’ll have you know, MAN OVERBOARD! MAN OVERBOARD!
I am scoring some major nookie due to my brand-new bad@ss image. If only I could get a book deal to go with it.
@Teendoo, Zenith
Care to make it interesting? Your one-man protest is not doing it for me. I need letter-writing campaigns to newspapers in Pakistan etc. You may think I am joking, but I am half-serious. This could be very good for me. Plus, you’d get your sawaab as well…What say you?
@kafka8: for all I know you could be gtp too (just kidding) ;’-p
Actually @zenith.. I said I didn’t know it.. maybe mbokhari is just jumping the gun because of this loser pestering him and making false accusations because mbokhari really did a fine littrol on his a$$.. so he ran off and started calling me a RAW agent and mbokhari names and then .. it’s not like he stopped as you’d expect a NORML person to do after they get their anger out. (taking the trouble to start a blog and then promote to _get_ at someone is really SICK IMO)
But get this…
he’s actually been updating his little blog!! I mean WTF ? really? how much of a LOSER does one have to be to engage in this kind of retarded behaviour? I say he’s really sick in the head because he exhibits traits of genuine intelligence mixed with this really sick psychopathic mentality..
I feel bad for the poor sap because I think he really needs help, but he’s made threats against me and as soon as I recieve the IP, I will hand all his information over to the local police and then he can enjoy Cavity Searches at the airport for the next decade!
besides, since adm_in is not releasing paindoo’s all IPs we can’t compare anyway.. I don’t care really.. he was just wasting everyone’s time by pretending to be a jiyala and then went off and showed his Taliban and Al-Qayda character in his blog. I just want to get his name in the local police’s “Watch List” for the death threats he made against peoiple (not to mention incitement to violence)
@gtp
why ask me…..ask mbokhari??
me also not smart
@mbokhari
Zenith shareef aadmi hay, might be some misunderstanding and confusion.
@kafka
you are very humble. this virtue will help you a lot in your life, inshallah.
@mbokhari
Look, I told you many times, why I would I do such things. I have requested @dmin. I have been on this site for quite some time now. I come here for healthy discussion. Its a shame that people start suspecting everyone once bitten. Jokes apart, I really am disappointed man. Why would I do such things. I really didn’t know earlier ,what was going on between you and that paindu guy you mentioned. I hope the @dmin displays all suspicious ID’s and multiple users. I can only say that much man.
@GM
Thanks GM. It really is disappointing for me, I wish @dmin can confirm it right now.
@zenith
Sorry dude…Full retraction.
But teendoo, dear dear teendoo, if you are reading this, consider what I said earlier. I need your help….Would SR have become a great writer if only a pathetic internet worm like yourself created a free website about him. NO…It took flag burnings, marches, murders etc to get it started….Where is your Imaan?
Get on with it!
@ mbokhari
Well, you owe me a cheese pizza now.
just kidding.
Meray Mutabiq - a great interview - Afrasiab Khattak is a true follower of a great leader, The Great Bacha Khan. Long live ‘left’.
boo! all these fake identities are destructive regarding a good debate. If we wanted to then I think most of us easily could have at least two identities. The first at home and the other at the office, but what fun would we have by that other than cheating pkpolitics users for a healthy debate and exchange of views?
Btw I don’t think Zenith is cheating. That is my feeling, and I don’t have proofs.
/Saqib
@gtp
are you the paindoo?
@gtp
Your silence will not help you. Show some bravery and be honest! Is that too much for you?
/Saqib
@Saqib
Thanks man for at least feeling so. Its sad really sad that some people among ruin discussion. Why doesn’t @dmin ban them in the first place?
Anyone who is using multiple ID’s should be banned?
@kafka
as i said:
ghairon se kaha tum ne, ghairon se suna tum ne…
@Zenith
I think he has banned several of these ghost debaters.
/Saqib
@kafka8: “me also not smart”
brilliant! hahaha! I totally lost it man.. LMAO!
btw I don’t think your or @Zenith are Teendoo.. (I think mbokhari is just new at this internet trolls following your around like little loser puppies thing)