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May 20, 2008
The Battle is Still On
Author: Pejamistri
The battle is still on [ for the disappointment of many though ] . PPP is refusing to give an unconditional indemnity to the actions of 3rd November. Establishment is willing to give some space to politicians if they agree on providing a “Notwithstanding….” clause in constitution.
At the moment I am extremely glad that the victory is ours in any case. Let us first revisit the history and some context of this battle.
1. Establishment is always ready to allow politicians to face the public specially when things are bad (remember 71-77, 89-99). They however require some sort of legal/constitutional instrument(s) that will allow them (establishment) to “fix” the politicians in case the need arise. The absence of any such instrument (ala 58-2B) forces the establishment to expose themselves not only to the public but also to the international community.
2. During the era of 90’s establishment used the article 58-2B successfully however they always realized that they still need some better way to manage the affairs , hence the idea of “National Security Council”.
3. Despite successful manipulation of trojan horses in the politicial parties and exploitation of the political differences and developing an animosity among the politicians , establishment faced their ultimate defeat in 1997 when the 13th amendment was passed unanimously.
Now let us look at the current scenario.
1. In all probability the legal/constitutional instruments (58-2B/NSC) are bound to go even if they go in a quid pro quo for indemnity to actions of November 3rd actions.
2. In all probablity the honorable judges are bound to be restored even if the Dograh judges stay.
3. In all probability there is a very remote possibility of the bitter relations between PPP and NS, they may have differences (which they must have) , but I don’t see 90’s relations. Even if establishments tries to develop such animosity it seems it will take many years.
For the hawks of pkpolitics , did they consider why following things have (not) happened.
1. The Judges did not try to go to their benches even after 12th May. They could have even sit under the trees to hold the court. BTW one of the legal maxim is that “Judge is the court” that means court does not mean a building , a judge can sit anywhere and hold the proceedings of the court as long as he/she is a judge.
2. Why Lawyers decided no to march towards Army house where the mad dictator is staying.
Just so people are not flared up and start suspecting Aitzaz Ahsan as culprit , let me say that both of the above actions are because of political forces on the front foot , as they signify that political forces are making progress on their actual agenda , once their is a real “stalemate” , I would see the judges trying to hold courts under trees and lawyers trying to march towards army house. Unfortunately both of these actions will be futile remember 3rd November 2007 or 12th October 1999.
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67 Responses to “The Battle is Still On”
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I feel like saying “in bed”
Of course the Battle is ON! The question is, Who’s going to be on which side?
I think @Savage put it nicely here :
And regarding your judges comment (I’ll shamelessly quote myself):
@pejamistri
Is talking is too optimistic about the loosing battle. War is going on for 60 years and I doubt there is a quick end insight. The battle will go on as package will retain existing judges and pack the court.
In any case, I am not loosing hope, as long as PML-N is staying the course and we have people like IK, Achakzai, we will play along.
I do recommend to @peja that pass the message to younger generation to keep it going
pejamistri … reporting from lala land
Exactly….This battle for supremacy of the rule of law is going to be quite long and wearing. The GHQ is not going to give up their privileges without a proper fight. Right now I would say that Mush is having the edge of the democratic forces - especially thanks to the negative role played by PPP-Q.
Btw PPP-Q is not a part of the democratic forces.
/Saqib
@Saqib: “Btw PPP-Q is not a part of the democratic forces.”
I think this needed to be re-iterated. They seem to have joined the other side of the fence, but if we keep the pressure on them, they are likely to come back crawling
Pejamistri Bhai,
Your analysis is good and its well worth a read. I wanted to expand slightly on the Doggar point as it hits at the heart of the issue.
I did a recent post titled Dog(gar) Justice which you might want to have a read of and other PK Politics friends may want to do likewise to aid the discussion, its here on two links:
http://tinyurl.com/5zeanz
http://www.otherpakistan.org/doggar-justice.html
Feimanallah
Wasim
http://www.otherpakistan.org/archive.html
I am sorry PPP and its so called leaders suck…….you cant expect any good from them.
Stop creating reasons/logics/conspiracy theories to make them look good. They are all bit$hes.
no offense to Pejamistri, his optimism is good dose to stay hopeful, but is it only me or anyone else felt also. Even a small anti-establishment footstep (may be disguised) from PPP and pejamistri writes 2-3 pages article on it, but keeps quiet on PPP pro-establishment leaps. “keya yeh khulla tazad nahee?”
@paja,
When are you going to wake up from whatever state of mind you are in.
BTW here is the story in Jang , let me be Irshad Haqqani for a moment
, Didn’t I write this earlier.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=14820
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=14820
Some more ……
can some one tell me what national interest is it that a person who suspends constitution as a army chief and sends all judiciary home is indemnified by popularly elected party ,it is a sad revelation by farooq naik
why judges who refused to obey a military dictator and obeyed the constitution of pakistan have been kept locked with their families and illegal unconstitutional judges who violated the constitution are now being rewarded by keeping them there and providing cover to them in the new amendment which has been prepared by rehman malik,farooq naik and associates
i think any solution to this problem should be made by representatives of the people of pakistan and not by establishment and ex agency chiefs with the help of aids of musharraf who have hijacked zardari by this nro method.
@savage: ““keya yeh khulla tazad nahee?”
you’re on the ball today my friend!
I know @peja likes to give the impression that there is this “grand strategy” that zardari is following.. but the facts belie an administration which doesn’t know what the heck it’s doing.. it is in reactive mode and is adjusting it’s pro-moshe policies day by day.
If it was up to Mr. Zee, it would be all over but the crying.
The battle is still on because PML-N , APDM and the lawyers made it clear they’re not going to back down.
The battle is still on because the judges refused to be seduced, for the umpteenth time.
The battle is still on because Pakistani’s have got a taste for blood and they are going to march on that symbol of oppression called the Army House. The same army house from which the Ruthless British Generals and officers gave orders of massacres of countless muslims of the areas now called Pakistan.
That bloody house should be burned to the ground and a public toilet built on top of it so People of Pakistan can Pi$$ on the origin of their miseries for all times to come.
The battle is still on because Pakistani’s are refusing to give up the fight despite the fact that treacheries are being committed daily by those whom they trusted. Like wounded animals they change tack and attack their oppressors one more time.
This time, they’re not going to lose, or there is going to be destruction of the instruments of their misery. And it’s a fight to the death! No matter who breaks ranks and joins the enemy.
Damn right the battle is on!
I guess both @TK and @Peja are on two extremes looking toward the same destination. It tells me we will lie somewhere in the middle. @Peja is right the battle is still on but he is counting on wrong political forces, while @TK thinks that general public is ready to take on military establishment head on. I doubt thats going to happen either.
I foresee a watered down 18th amendment, and PML-N on the side line.
So its Ain’t over, till its really over.
@TK,
Man, that was some piece of adrenalin-raising writing. I second you my friend that “You are Damn right the battle is on!”
and @peja and @TK both missed this news item also
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=14821
“he PPP-led government is all set to indemnify the Nov 3 acts of Gen (retd) Pervez Musharraf, probably paving the way for his resignation and safe exit.”
@peja
“the party was playing its cards quite shrewdly and would negotiate a tough deal with Musharraf. ”
I hope you agree PPP accepting “Musharraf’s offer to resign in return for indemnity” certainly would not be the tough deal you are talking about. …
@peja,
I think, you are misisng the point…
the isuse is not whether or not PPP will restore judges; the issue is on what conditions.
The article you refered to and quoted from gave most of the space to PPP-Musharaf situation but the last part talked about the judges - age, tenure and Su moto…
the difficulties lie in that part…
there was never a doubt that PPP is serious about taking powers from the President…
I think it is naive to think you are strengthening the democracy or independence of judges by, on the one hand, in any way indemnify Nov. 3 acts and, on the other hnd to extend article 6 to judges…
still, let us see what happens…
@peja,
If Musharraf gets indemnity (even a selective one) and the PCO judges are retained and the CJ/SC powers are clipped then what have we gained. Even if we repeal 58-2B and strike down National Security Council will you consider it a win for political forces? I won’t.
If all of above happens, how can that provide deterrence from a future military adventurer? I think 58-2B and NSC are ‘nice to have’ features for establishment. When that damned 111Brigade comes into play it doesn’t needs any legal sanction for its actions. Establishment has time and again given up on NSC (Zia, JK) and 58-2B (1997) without loosing much influence.
I think the key is NOT to give indemnity. No matter even if it brings govt. down.
Peja,
This package is just an eyewash to buy time from the lawyers.
AZ is in Mushies back-pocket. Uncle Sam made the two sign a pact and uncle Sam will make sure AZ follows through.
Musharraf will never step down for a scoundrel like AZ. He used MMA for the 17th amendment. Now he he’ll use PPP for the 18th amendment getting indemnity for his acts of Nov 3rd. Frankly PPP is only fooling the masses and jiyalas by saying that Mush will step down. No one with a half a brain buys this BS.
@inaam
That’s why I put a historical perspective and a context in which this battle is being fought , Unfortunately I was never under the illusion after 3rd November and specially after 27th December that we (the people) have reached to a point where we can go out for an all out war against the establishment. It would sound passimissm to many people however on the third/fourth of November when 60 judges were sent home and a sitting CJ along with 5 senior most judges of supreme court were put under house arrest , I expected a mini revolution , I am optimistic by nature and I thought it is not possible that urban people specially of upper punjab and perhaps urban sind and peshawar can never accept something so shameful, I hoped that it will be different from 12th October 1999 or 5th July 1977 because people *do* hate politicians , but these were my lords not *corrupt* politicians.
And you know not even 10,000 person marched towards Islamabad on 4th November. I still did not loose hope and then arrived 27th of December , well just imagine how much people are afraid of this establishment, 27th December came and passed and what happened nobody dare even to enter Islamabad. Let me tell you two stanza from Faiz’s poem “Hum loog” that will explain better.
Dil kay aiwaan mein liye gul shuda shamoon ki qatar
nor-e-khursheed say sehmay huay uktaay huay
husn-e-mehboob key siyal tussawar kee tarah
apni taareeki ku bheechay huay lipltaay huay
muzmahil saa-at-e-imrooz kee bay rangi say
yaad-e-maazi say ghameen , dehshat-e-farda say nidhaal
fikr-e-sood-o-ziaan , soorat-e-aghaaz-o-maaal
wohi baysood tajussuss wohi bekaar sawaal
—
But I don’t loose hope and believe in
yunhi hemsha khilaay hain hum nay aag mein phool
na unki rasm nayee hai na apni reet naye
So yes I would consider it a victory of people of Pakistan , in fact I consider 18th February as a big win , it is a slap on the face of establishment by the “insulted and humiliated” , I would consider a win when 58-2B is repealed , NSC gone and we have constitution as it was on 12th October 1999. I would be sorry if CJ’s powers are clipped however if he is restored even for a single day I’ll consider this as the most symbolic win against the establishment.
Let me not sound passimistic again but 111-brigade can not be stopped by constitution
, it is the people who can stop 111 brigade to enter Islamabad unfortunately on 3rd of November we (the people) were not strong enough to stop 111-brigade. However the more 111-brigade enters Islamabad, less we the people will be afraid of it , any legal/constitutional instrument (58-2B/NSC) that kills the need for 111-brigade is far more dangerous.
Granting indemnity to Nov 3 PCO is tantamount to violation of article 6. Who the heck gave this parliament the right to grant indemnity to an act of subversion of the constitution. All MNA who support the 18th amendment will be in violation of article 6, by aiding a traitor.
i see this article another attempt to sabotage the lawyers movement and restoration of judiciary with full dignity……This is exactly what PPP/AZ(Mush’s new party) is trying tio do…create confusion and delay the process so people get tired and exhausted and restoration of judiciary in true terms becomes part of history
there is a basic flaw in this article because PPP is itself establishemnt…even claimed by RMalik
with political parties particularly AZ and NS getting such a clear mandate from awaam (democracy) are still scared of ‘hidden forces’ then shame on them and us as Pakistanies…. the title of this article should really be ‘The Battle is off… we are just negotiating a package for us from Mush’
a tv anchor asked Farooq H Nalaik :
Q: Who is the author of this proposed constitutional package?
A: i am the author of constitutional package and i am taking guidance from our Co chairman Asif Zardari sb
previously Farooq H Nalaik had said that there is no provision on constitution to reinstate the judges,’constitution only talks about appointment of judges’ . could some one ask him, does constitution talk about forcefully deposing the judges like it happened on 3rd Nov 2007? if not then those judges don’t need reinstatement at all,they are still judges plain and simple..
@TK
Guess I agree with your analyses more
the hope that whatever AZ is doing is probably a great hidden game and he is doing it above his personal benifits, in the best interest of the nation and above all AGAINST Mush anc compnay , is pretty laughable
this could be a dream but not a ground reality
this is the impression PPP leadership is trying to give AFTER they realized that they were losing grounds to PML N due to AZ’s extremely unpopular decisons and unpopular team
also all the probabls mentinoned by Peja are pobabls only in ths articles
I still thnk that if you hide faces of so called PPP leadership, (whatever leadership is left) and listen to what they say, you wont be able to tell them apart from PML Q leader
what good can come of it? probably not much!!!
@Malek
Great … I agree with your amendments, I don’t wish Paf123?? could bring some amendments from PPP’s point of view (meaning “expose” NS/PMLN actions) , I remember reading how NS backstabbed PPP by pulling out of coalition etc. etc..
Well to be honest I consider PZP as they call it now, as the major political force in Pakistan , I also think PML(N) as another major political force, it is just a matter of chance AZ is playing the devil’s role currently I actually sympathize with him. But I am very glad that NS is playing the hero’s role it is very important in an historical/strategical context , NS comes from Punjab and unfortunately Punjab has been the stronghold of establishment for right or wrong reasons. The current role of NS is ensuring that people in Punjab have the oppurtunity to stand against the establishment , I already notice a sort of “confusion” (in good sense of the word) creeping in thier (people of Punjab) minds, they are ready to disown their love for establishment but not their hatred against PPP. In my opinion this confusion is good , as the hatred against PPP is now transforming into a new type of hatred, this new hatred is not based on PPP being anti-Pakistan (read establishment) , secular and anti-army party , instead it is now based on PPP being a pro-army , pro-establishment party which in my opinion beneficial in longer context of this war.
@malek / peja,
I removed Malek’s comment and thought he copied pasted your article by mistake without any changes.
Here is malek’s comment again:
Here is my article, which reflects the ground realities
The battle is still on (on the face of it) because of the pressure by PMLN, media, lawyers APDM and knowing public sentiment . PPP is trying to give an unconditional indemnity to the actions of 3rd November, but cannot because of the above mentioned real democratic and political forces. PPP in collusion with the establishment is trying to buy time along with getting some space for Mush if they agree on providing a “Notwithstanding….” clause in constitution.
At the moment I am extremely glad that the victory will be ours in any case, because we are on the right. Let us first revisit the history and some context of this battle.
1. Establishment is always ready to allow politicians to face the public specially when things are bad (remember 71-77, 89-99). They however require some sort of legal/constitutional instrument(s) that will allow them (establishment) to “fix” the politicians in case the need arise. The establishment to achieve this has teamed up PPP like it has done in the past.
2. During the era of 90’s establishment used the article 58-2B successfully however they always realized that they still need some better way to manage the affairs , hence the idea of “National Security Council”.
3. Despite successful manipulation of trojan horses in the politicial parties and exploitation of the political differences and developing an animosity among the politicians , establishment faced their ultimate defeat in 1997 when the 13th amendment was passed by PMLN. PPP had to support it as they had no other choice. PPP knew even if they dont support it the legislation will be passed as PMLN had 2/3rd majority.
Now let us look at the current scenario.
1. In all probability the legal/constitutional instruments (58-2B/NSC) are bound to go. PPP with their current stance is trying to delay the process so they dont go against establishment, who are their joint partners.
2. In all probablity the honorable judges are bound to be restored even if the Dograh judg@s stay.
3. In all probability there is a good possibility of the bitter relations between AZ and NS as PMLN stands on clear agenda and manifesto in line with public demands wheras PPP and AZ are part of establisment and friends of Mush. They may have differences (which they must have) , but I don’t see 90’s relations.
For the readers of pkpolitics , did they consider why following things have happened.
1. The Judges did not try to go to their benches even after 12th May. They could have even sit under the trees to hold the court. But they trusted the two main political parties PMLN and PPP. But PPP backstabbed them as AZ had become an ally of Mush and workinmg for establishment.
2. Why Lawyers decided no to march towards Army house where the mad dictator is staying.
Just so people are not flared up and to help resolve the matter in a civilsed manner and based on the charter of democracy and promises to Aitzaz Ahsan and his team by AZ.
Let me say that both of the above actions are because of the mandate received by political forces which put them on the front foot. Unfortunately because of the delay caused to date the political forces are becoming weak and Mush and establishemnt ios getting stronger and stronger. In fact Mush is today strongest since the elections night.
PPP and MQM is making good progress on getting the maximum benefit from NRO. I would see the judges trying to hold courts under trees and lawyers trying to march towards army house. Unfortunately both of these actions will be futile remember 3rd November 2007 or 12th October 1999. and this time the full responsibilty will be of AZ’s party still named PPP
@peja
Paf123 has the right to make his comments like you and me did
however the original article by you was no diff to what paf123 would have written…eg PPP is refusing to give an unconditional indemnity, NS comes from Punjab and unfortunately Punjab has been the stronghold of establishment, etc etc
NS is not playing heroes role as you claim… but role of a straight forward politician, which if AZ had done as well, together they would have defeated the establishment
also your point about new typoe of hatred for PPP is not agreeable. The real reason for hatred for PPP is because AZ has deceived the Nation (as exposed by Talat Hussain on 12 May) and going against the desires of public who showed their support for restoration of judges even when the dictator had his uniform.
People like myself who have never supported PPP in the past strongly defended and supported the coalition of PMLN and PPP when they stood united on desire of the nation which was to restore judg@es and stand up against the dictator …as their right not as a deal
@dmin
I thought the same as well but than on reading closely I found some subtle amendments , for the people in a hurry here are the amendments which I found.
1. The battle is still on (on the face of it) because of the pressure by PMLN, media, lawyers APDM and knowing public sentiment.
2. PPP is trying to give an unconditional indemnity to the actions of 3rd November, but cannot because of the above mentioned real democratic and political forces.
3. PPP in collusion with the establishment is trying to buy time along with getting some space for Mush……
4. Establishment is always ready to allow politicians…………. The establishment to achieve this has teamed up PPP like it has done in the past.
5. For 13th amendment… PPP had to support it as they had no other choice. PPP knew even if they dont support it the legislation will be passed as PMLN had 2/3rd majority.
6. For 58-2B/NSC …. PPP with their current stance is trying to delay the process so they dont go against establishment, who are their joint partners.
7. For relations between NS & AZ there is a good possibility of bitter relations as PMLN stands on clear agenda and manifesto in line with public demands wheras PPP and AZ are part of establisment and friends of Mush
and finally
PPP and MQM is making good progress on getting the maximum benefit from NRO. I would see the judges trying to hold courts under trees and lawyers trying to march towards army house. Unfortunately both of these actions will be futile remember 3rd November 2007 or 12th October 1999. and this time the full responsibilty will be of AZ’s party still named PPP
@peja
thanks. however you missed the following (i dont know how to make the amends in bold!)
-Let me say that both of the above actions are because of the mandate received by political forces which put them on the front foot. Unfortunately because of the delay caused to date the political forces are becoming weak and Mush and establishemnt ios getting stronger and stronger. In fact Mush is today strongest since the elections night.
Theres no way out from the mess we are in for las 60 years until & unless we give up “doctrine of necessity” & “lesser evil” for whatsoever reasons.
These are the real leeches who will leave us nowhere, so get rid of them at any cost, the sooner the better.
No indemnity at any cost, otherwise its just a continuation of past with a blend of “change”.
It is simple as that
If the judges are restored by consitutional amendment which even Musharraf wants it now and PCO judges also want it and so do the others in establishment that would be the end of rule of law then.
Because that would validate the fact that the Nov 3 action was CONSITUTIONAL and that is why to undo that the consitution had to be changed
I think it would be a big blunder on part of PPP if they resotre the judiciary via 18th amendment because then it open the doors for future military ruler to come in at any time, do whatever he wants to, change the consitution, handpick the judges and get the verdict of his liking and thats it - and then leave the assembly to undo it by 2/3rd majority
And if PPP moves this amendment then one fine day PPP goverment would be dismissed and when they would go to Supreme Court the PCO judges would send them packing. Asif Zardari got relief via NRO but who can stop Musharraf from producing another NRO saying that the previous NRO is invalid. Where would Zardari go then.
So PPP has to make a decision - would they show the weakness or they are brave enough then.
Unfortunately this rule of law floutation is DIRECTLY ENCOURAGED BY THE AMERICANS and they can to go any extent to get their things done and they dont like rule of law at all.
Thats why they are against Iftikhar Chaudhry but they dont realise that if there is anarchy it is them who would suffer in the end.
@c Hussain: right on! “Laws are for Suckers” seems to be the motto of successive American administrations.
P.S. @Peja: I think you would like the ShireeN mazaari article of June 21 that @nota posted not too long ago in the Visitors’ section.
@TK
I wonder how come no dictator ever changed Article 6 of consitituion. I mean, if SC allows them to change it, that should be first thing I will change
New Article 6:
“Not Withstanding any other stupidity, anybody body who violates constitution SHALL be made President for life with automatic transfer to next Army chief”
@peja
So you think that doing away with 58-2B and NSC will be a win for political forces that warrant giving indemnity. I differ on this. I think establishment should be best dealt with the ways they had been dealing with us. Just like they want to keep the sword of 58-2B hanging over the parliament, the parliament should not concede on taking away the sword of of Article 6 from establishment’s head.
Note that if the parliament retains PCO judges through a constitutional amendment that will tantamount to implicitly giving indemnity to Nov. 3 actions. As this action of the parliament can be presented in any court to justify that for all intents and purposes the parliament has considered the Nov. 3 actions as having legal force.
I agree with you that 111 ventures cannot be stopped by any number of constitutional amendments but I’d say that best deterrent against such future incursions is not to provide indemnity. Just let them languish in their own fears of Article 6 (like we lived in fear of 58-2B).
I fully agree with inaam because at the moment the best they wont do is to restore the judiciary but their actions would forever be controversial and illegal. Constitutional amendment would forever change that. I agree with all the jurists who say that an executive order is all that is necessary. I think PPP is a bit hesitant to follow that route because they are afraid that army would side with Musharraf and Dogra justice should they call the army in aid of Supreme Court and that can be disastrous. But let PPP know that if they delay it more then even the time for Constitutional amendment would be gone and they would be worse than Q league because now the President has powers to amend the constitution as he likes and this is validated by Supreme Court.
Just like Bhutto removed Justice Safdar Shah CJ of Peshawar High Court and it was teh same CJ who had given verdict in his favour when he was hanged by 4-3 majority - Bhutto used to regret very much why he removed Safdar Shah and even this favour proved to be very expensive for Safdar Shah as he has to leave Pakistan via Afghanistan to UK and died in exile. Zardari should learn a lesson from this because if these judges are not restored honourably THEN REMEMBER NO JUDGE IN FUTURE WOULD EVER GIVEN A JUDGEMENT IN FAVOUR OF A POLITICIAN AGAIN AND THEY WOULD ALWAYS SIDE WITH ARMY because they would know what happens if one tries to be Iftikhar Chaudhry.
Why would any justice stick out his neck ever for a poitician in future after they know what the politicians do to them.
@inaam
Well I can claim to have very little understanding of the constitution and specially case proceeding in terms of constitutional cases. And there is absolutely no way that November 3rd actions can be indemnified implicitly, these actions “MUST” be indemnified explicitly by the parliament , even the dograh court judgment that states that november 3rd actions including the amendments in constitution by the mad dictator have not declared them to be indemnified , even though it is a preposterous judgment yet it could not find even an absurd argument to say the same instead this judgment relied on the 2000 judgment (which included CJ IMC) stating that dictator can amend the constitution. However just like in 2002 when dictator had to get an explicit indemnity in terms of article 270AA , it is now imperative for the establishment to seek the same indemnity from this parliament. Which I am 100% sure that they can not get the same without loosing a lot of ground.
So in a nutshell your argument that if PCO judges are accepted as judges then November 3rd actions are indemnified by default , answer is NO.
I have kept saying that establishment is in a catch 22 situation, if the constitutional package does not come with indemnity than the situation remains as “De-facto” and civil society pressure keeps them on the backfoot. And if they (establishment) agree on some sort of indemnity with the political forces than they loose a lot of ground.
Finally I think the change that IMC, Ramday, Bhagwan Das, Sabih-ud-din, Khwaja Sharif and many more have brought in judiciary is now irreversible , there is no way any power can stop the 9th March 2007 ocurring again and again in near future of Pakistan.
Q league rejected Moshe advice to join PPP govt, “Battle is still on” and establishment is on back foot even Q-League is snubbing Moshe.
http://jang.com.pk/jang/may2008-daily/21-05-2008/up84.gif
@TK
I am not sure if you know what I think but Sheerin Mazari , let me tell you I don’t read her articles. Unfortunately I know her too well
@Pejamistri
How well, like her days at QAU?
@econfused
Perhaps not that well but I put her in the league of Atta-ur-Rahman and gang. I also tend to agree with several people that she is an ISI paid agent well of course she made a lot of money as the DG she was in MP-1 scale just recently.
@pejamistri: I don’t know much about her, I only followed @nota’s link and I’ve heard her speak and she doesnt’ talk like an “ISI paid agent”… just because she is employed by the government and draws a huge salary…?
What do you have to back up your claims? I mean any change in writings? stances, support?
I’m curious to know what is your opinion based on?
If she’s ISI paid agent (and by implication their mouthpiece) then there is a gigantic rift within the establishment in which ISI’s ppl are openly deriding the rest of the establishment.
Your claims don’t make any sens (at the surface).. I’m waiting to hear any corraborating evidence dude.
@TK
Well you will have to study her role during the Kargil battle , I was closely following her during that period I don’t have her articles right now but can locate them.
BTW trust me I don’t call everybody an “ISI agent”, neither on the basis of money , you would never have seen me alleging this often.
You can disagree with as usual
BTW I am feeling that since admin is putting my stupid comments as articles I have started behaving like a “aql-e-kul”
as NJ put today.
Sorry about that , I am just a dehati and want to learn more.
BTW I am feeling that since @dmin is putting my stupid comments as articles I have started behaving like a “aql-e-kul” as NJ put today.
Sorry about that , I am just a dehati and want to learn more.
@peja
“So in a nutshell your argument that if PCO judges are accepted as judges then November 3rd actions are indemnified by default , answer is NO.”
I doubt. I suggest you to read “The Destruction of Pakistan’s Democracy” by Allen McGrath (Oxford Press). It is a remarkable narration of Tamiz_ud_Din case and the constitutional arguments put forward by both sides. It was a technical knock out. And if we give any chance for such a knock out by implicitly accepting the actions of 3 Nov. then the pressure really gets off from the establishment. In a hypothetical scenario where a general is being tried for high treason the odds will already be heavily stacked against a judicious judgement.
Bottom line is that I do not expect any general being tried for treason any time soon. But if we provide indemnity (implicitly or explicitly) that further takes the pressure off from the establishment.
@inaam
Well I am not really sure what you meant , however upon re-read I think my statement was rather confusing. Let me try to explain further.
I have studied Dosso case , Nusrat Bhutto Case, Asima Jilani Case, Saifullah case and have attended couple of proceedings of BB’s first government dismissal. And here is what I understand about the indemnity and the justification of revolution on the basis of Hans Kelsen’s theory and doctrine of necessity.
1. There is no concept of implicit indemnity of the extra-constitutional (read unconstitutional) steps of a dictator. That means if parliament wants to indemnify the actions of November 3rd 2007, then it must indemnify it explicitly through a “Notwithstanding …” clause ala article 270A, 270AA.
2. Hence I believe that it is not possible for the parliament to accept the PCO judges without inserting article 270AAAA in the constitution which first validates the actions of November 3rd.
3. The application of Doctrine of Necessity was absurd and unacceptable in constitutional domain and have never been accepted as a reasonable precendent in any court of law outside Pakistan. The doctrine of necessity has always been a laughing stock among the respectable lawyers and jurists in the world. But still it has been used shamefully by our supreme court in many instances.
4. Now question of whether this parliament will explicitly indemnify the actions of November 3rd.
a) Idealist in me says that it is not possible , how can a parliament of 2007 with PPP and PML(N) along with ANP in it can allow the establishment to get away with it. It will be mind boggling to assume PPP as PML-Q and ANP as MMA of 2002. It sounds to me simply unbelieveable.
b) Pragmatist in me says that there might be a quid pro quo , which will be more favorable to democratic forces than the establishment. That is what I explained above.
c) Passimist in me says that both of the above are not possible, establishment is not going to let it go easily and we are going to see another martial law but this time bloody.
@peja…
i respect your opinions…but
listen to what Wajihuddin is saying…
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/05/21/justice-wajiuddin-talks-about-18th-amendment/
what do you have to say beyound a systical belief that just becsuae it is PPP and just beacuse these are civilians, all will be well..:
@peja
Thanks for explaining. Much clearer now!
I hope that optimist in you wins here. I don’t see a victory of pragmatist as a win at all.
@ibnrazi
I consider Justice Wajih as one my heros , and I am greatly impressed by his eloquence and great insight. And it is very important that people keep pressure on the political parties (read PPP) to make it in a position to better deal with establishment. It is all the more important to show the public support for the honorable judges and hatred against establishment whose symbol is mad dictator and that’s what Justice Wajih is doing. And that is what lawyers are doing and that is what PML-N is doing and that is what PPP is NOT doing as they are dealing with establishment :). I was impressed by Chaudary Nisar’s fiery speech in Capital Talk today. All will be well inshaallah
Mistri living in a world of fantasy and create his own self made baseless strories to promote PPP as great anti establishment political party. Í am afraid that PPP does not consult Mr.mistri in their policy so he can write whetever he wants but this will not increase PPP`s present image of being collaborator of Musharraf due to NRO and to make USA happy
dear Freinds,
In Pakistan more the corrupt is more the honourable,see everywhere every institution is tortured and destructed in comparison to india
they are a billionare nation and still improving,and here is vice versa.
railway speaks his own story overthere its profitable institution,here its an white elephant,
always remember one thing when there is no justice in the society,the nations cannot survive it should collapse,
now as nation we had to decide we want justice in our society or get to ready to collapse.
PPP is in a bind. They are spreading runmors that Mush will resign if they grant him indemnity. This has aggravated Musharraf.
In the end AZ will fully back Musharraf. It is payback time after Mush followed through his promise of enacting the NRO and absolving AZ from all corruption/murder charges.
However PPP could breakup as a result. Yesteraday’s Jang carried a NS statement to this effect as the main headline. NS will not say flippantly that PPP might breakup if AZ grants indemnity to Mush.
sama Tota Kahani from Mistri..an effort to deny facts like NRO, American Pressure, zaradri`s corruption, Ties of PPP with Dogar Doggie and above all those agreements which BB did with Musharraf and international powers acted as brokers..
At the moment PPP and establishment has same interests i.e to somehow co exist .
Yes battle is on against Iftikhar Ch, and other judges who did not take oath, battle is on against those voters who voted against Musharraf, battle is on against media to shut their mouth and battle is on against those who wanna see rule of law in Pakistan. Commanders of this battle are Zaradri and Musharraf
I have to agree with Malek and sleepingnation.
Asif Zardari in another press conference … with a prepared statement!
“Let me start in the name of Benazir Bhutto”
What THE FFFFFFFFFF ??????????????????????
he’s lost it!
Peja busy defending the undefendable, Our national pastime.
It sounds like Mushahid Hussain defending Q-League.
Zardari is a con man,What we need is a Statesman.
Watch other PPP leaders sitting beside Zardari, they look uncomfortable. In their conscience they know that they are forced to go the wrong way because Zardari has to enjoy the benifits of NRO.
PPP has been hijacked. This should be obvious to all of us .
To protect one man and his looted millions, an entire nation has to go to Dogs.
Peja go back to your day job. Enough of your pseudo analyses.
“If the Prime Minister orders, all the deposed judges can be restored within three minutes” Aitzaz Ahsan.
This is so very true.
More than a dozen retired Justices agree on this. Some distinguished Legal brains agree.Lawyers agree on this. A political party PML-N agrees on this.
Who disagrees? The greatest legal mind of our country, Asif Ali Zardari. Who has a Bachelors Degree from a nonexistent London School of Business to back it up with. Clowns are running the show.
He is dragging the whole affair., idea is to drag it for as long as you can that every one gets tired and goes home. This is a true and tried strategy, not an unplanned one. This is how third world never becomes Ist world. We keep producing third rate leaders and putting them on the throne, then wonder where have we gone wrong?
Try depose that many judges even in -the most unadmired ,by some country- USA. People will drag those responsible for such a crime onto the streets and hang them by the trees.
@upbeat, Zardari does not have degree from any where. He has diploma from London school of economics.
Yes PM order can restore Judges if President agree which I think at this point he not. Do you think people of Punjab would fight 111 brigade of Pakistan of Army when they capture supreme court of Pakistan on order of Supreme Commader Gen MUSH I do not think so.
That what PPP is trying to make sense in the support of PMLN that this would be clash of institution.
Kinnare, come back when you are sober…-:)
“a report published in the New York Times by Jane Perlez on Tuesday, said that in the early 1970s, Zardari went to London, attended London School of Business Studies and received a Bachelor of Education degree. But, according to his official biography says he attended a commercial college called Pedinton School, which is, however, not traceable in the list of tertiary educational institutions in London.
“While there he attended the London School of Business Studies and received a Bachelor of Education degree. His official biography says he attended a commercial college called Pedinton School. But a search of tertiary educational institutions in London showed no such school, and associates said he did not finish his studies,” said the NYT report.
It quoted Zardari as saying: “I do have a degree. That is not an issue. I attended the London School of Business Studies much before I was married. I think it’s a B Ed degree. I haven’t really looked at it.”
It further said: “The question of whether Zardari has a university degree is relevant because President Pervez Musharraf introduced a law in 2002 that made it compulsory for parliamentary candidates to hold a degree in order to qualify for electoral office.”
It is most likely that Zardari might run for Parliament so as to get installed as the countrys prime minister. (ANI)”
also you said”Yes PM order can restore Judges if President agree which I think at this point he not. ”
What a brilliant observation? Can you please tell me at what point President will agree to the restoration of judges?????
I don’t take your comments seriously, but the surety with which you type nonsense, obviously pi**ed me off.
@Upbeat
I am AA’s pupil and read the plan I posted in another thread how to get the Judiciary restored in one minute , it just requires CM Punjab to provide an office to CJ and judiciary is restored.
P.S. I hope CM Punjab will provide CJ a better office
UK officials clueless about Zardari’s degree
http://www.dawn.com/2008/03/21/top9.htm
If the PPP is enjoying blanket legal indemnity under the NRO, then why should they not give unconditional indemnity to Musharraf? One good turn deserves another.