I really hope lawyers can keep this momentum …. otherwise whats left in their hands ? havent they already shown all of their cards ?

what’s next nobody knows - was the movement hijacked

where is that Imtiaz alam now? that dumb journalist said yesterday that this is not as successful as the previous rally.

a very important piece of infomation that i have just recieved from my uncle who is a member of LHBA…he was also a part of the long march..i called him to know about his reaction regarding no “dharna” and he said that we, lawyers atleast the lahore high court bar was aware that there will be no dharna…

he said that the reasons provided were that a dharna would end up in a law and order mess and also from some sections they had said that in case PPP was not able to take a decision, army would have intervened and lawyers community did not want to derail the democratic process…he said that our aim was to show our power and tell the parliament what people want…he agreed that the end of the cermony did not end like it should have…however he said that no lawyer was upset with the call of no dharna and it was just a group of people..

@ ts …….. Its not hijacked but it shouldnt have ended this way. There is only 1 way out now ……. that within next 1 to 2 days, lawyers give one final call of show in Islamabad with ultimatum of 2-3 weeks to Mush and PPP government ……….. otherwise this movement is not going anywhere.

Poor Planning…what next…”mushwarat”..but isn’t this what PPP is saying “mushawarat”……lawyers movment was able to gather hundred thousands of people…but could not give them any direction…no one came here to listen to mediocre speeches by all the leaders…even AA delivered a very mediocre speech..it seemed like he was at “takreeb Runmai of a book”…not at an awami jalsa……

wtf are you ppl talking about. I thought It was a GREAT journey and they gave their hearts out to convey their message across the country! What else could they have done?

where was kurd - not seen on stage - why he has not given the speech

let’s hope that this march will bring the restoration of judges and the independence of judiciary - now again we hape to keep the hope - pakistan is a nation since it’s time from independence living with hope

@ts
kurd didnot join in protest because he wanted a dharna.

my message was deleted for no reason…

i say it again, lets stop decieving our selves, even MQM AKA Altaf can bring these many ppl out for no obvious reason but for at least some goal which they think……

i wish i would have send that money to that poor woman on GEO TV or may be like any 1 like her…..

Wake up U Stupid Awam, n stop sketching GOD out of ordinary ppl and corrupt politicianssssssssssss

so they were able to divide them

the people have once again made their decision very clear as if the election result was not enough atleast this proves to those people who said they came to power based on issues other than the restoration of the judiciary that the people are not with them.

and now anyone who tries to tell us that is trying to deceive us this clarification is a massive achievement of this march.

another massive achievement is we have been hearing about a ‘new pakistan’ now we can see it and those in power who doubted it can see it.

the strongholds of power have been shook vigourosly

[posting it earlier in a dead thread]
I haven’t slept for 2 days and 1 night …not even for one minute … due to excitement. But the way lawyers wrapped up the long march is a big shock. Yes, a part of me is also feeling being abused!
First of all, long march has achieved many successes. I could compare it with Khilafat movement of 1920, which failed, but for the first time Muslims of Sub-Continent realized a power through social mobilization. Khilafat movement is therefore considered a precursor to the all-popular (and populist) Pakistan movement. Similarly, definitely long march has attained many of its objectives; biggest being Mass mobilization, public participation, and still a pacifist movement!!

Where it fails miserably is the ending part. And the failure is not about not being able to restore the judges, it is about the way it is annouced that “the party is over”. Ideally, if on Sunday parliment is going to meet then why not make it an agenda to disperse after the parliment’s meeting (yes, plan ahead if you need to spend a day under the sun). Parliment would be feeling the pressure when 0.5 million (or even 100,000) are outside. If parliment does not respect the people’s aspiration then go to some plan-B of constant pressure through continued protests and media engagement. Announce plan-B, provide rationale and then disperse.
Now if this all sounds too ideal for the pragmatists then at least do not finish the show by simply walking away …and leaving people out in the “cold”. This is what, I am feeling right now, that Aitezaz did. He just walked out without a proper end .. without properly wrapping it up. Even if there has been some understanding between the bosses (and let’s say that tomorrow Judges will be restored) man please respect the people and give them a proper closure … just do not hang up on them. That is the part which is still hurting me. A proper closure is not just talking about the state and mother analogy, it is about informing people the benefits we have acheived through this mass participation — talk more about what has been achieved and help people understand and digest that part — and proper closure is about updating people about the next steps in the movement … this is called transparency and taking others in confidence (for example, how many of us right now knows what are the next steps? …every one of us is doing a guess work). I am still in a state of shock that the closure was so abrupt.

I think lawyers did a Good Job.
they made their Point clear what they want.

but ultimately it not the LAWYERS or civil society who will decide how will this country be Governed.

Its the Parliament who will decide about these issues and the people are sitting is Parliament are the representative of the people of Pakistan NOT THE LAWYERS.

PPP khoon ka naam lay kar he siasat kartee rahee hai - babar awan dungar doctor - yahee in ka slogan raha hai or ab bhi hai

Kurd was not feeling good, maybe ill….

I would say well done mian Sahab.

Mian Nawaz Sharif is responsible for all this.

well done PMLn

AA did not do a great job ultimately. may be he has still not made his brain to openly criticize PPP, i don’t know y he is still loyal to PPP. u can’t ride two boats at a time. ppl of pakistan wants a clear message from him about whom shud b loved n whom shud b humiliated.
ppl don’t have much energy to show up again n again on the streets…
n once ppl come to realize that even the lawyers don’t have a clear direction, they won’t support this movement anymore….
and i m dead sure that kurd didn’t address because there happen to b a difference in opinion….
the best strategy however was the get their demands fulfilled there but atleast AA shud have given an ultimatum to the Govt. to restore the judiciary within a prescribed period of time.
i think he is more loyal to party than required “Shah say ziada shah ka wafadaar”

Ideally they should have gone for Dharna but with cool mind i dont think that was the right option at this time.
First i dont think that more than 4-5000 would have joined Dharna which couldnt do anything.
Second its a mirace that this rally ended in peace otherwise any small incident could have hijacked this whole movement.

@idealist
it was not AA, it was request of NS. listen to NS’s speech

it was very sensible decision to stop this march here. i think purpose is achived, they have conveyed the message.
i had fear that any incident could mar whole effort.
this march will have impact (INSHALLAH)

someone said in other thread that Rehman Malik would come on media and would say smirking “there were not more than 20,000 people.”

And guess what he just said it on Aaj TV.

@pakistanthinks ……. NS has his say on AA but not every lawyer. Ending the proceedings right after last speech was part of lawyer’s planning.

Yes there had been disagreements about this between them but if that was not the case then 25000 lawyers in this procession wouldnt have left so easily.

I just heard Rehman Malik ( pakistani James Bond) on GEO saying that he only saw 20,000 people. Interesting observation… dont you think so ?

@usman
NS arranged the crowd else this long march would have been the biggest flop. He did it for his political compulsion. Being the hand that feeds the mouth, he ended up controlling the thoughts as well.

Had this u-turn or even half of it been taken by PPP or ANP, this forum would have erupted in slurs.

_____________The Hollow Men

by T. S. Eliot
————————————
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man’s hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow
_____________For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
_____________Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
_____________For Thine is the Kingdom

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

@Pakistanthinks …. so what solution do you propose ? attack on presidential house or parliamant ?????????? and how many people you sincerely think would have gone for dharna after 18 hours of waking ????????

@ usman
no. this just proves that ppp stand on taking into consideration the ground realities is a wise strategy

and now the slurs will begin on this forum:)

@ pakistanthinks …. and by “ground realities” you mean Musharaf ?
they are afraid of Musharraf, whom people scolded just half km away from his place and he couldnt dare do anything ?

@ usman
no army and establishment. some one mentioned in these comments where army stands in this battle (referring to LHBA guy). there is a line which if crossed will roll back the democratic process. you claim the ground left by opponents, consolidated and then ask for more. this is art of war

@pakistanthinks ….. hahahhaha “establishment” …… lol …. if after100 days this establishment is controlling PPP government then they should be ashamed of themselves.

And if Army is interfering so much then PPP should quit the government and join people of Pakistan for final showdown against it. No body is asking you to govern on gun point.

But none of above seems true after listening to jokers like Baber Awan or Farooq Naik, Zardari, and our Interior Secretary Rehman Malik who couldnt save his own leader and now is tryin to save Pakistan.

Thats it from me …. now you enjoy sharing your jokes with someone else ……

What the hell happened? I leave for a couple hours and everyone packs up and goes home?

@peja:

So here are all the possible outcomes for the long march.

1. 2-day sit-in and then people return home on Sunday.
2. Judges restored on Sunday via parilament’s resolution
3. Mad dictator resigns and runs away by Sunday.
4. Violent protests and show down between police and participants.
5. Bomb blast (God Forbid)

Looks like you forgot no. 6 out of “all the possible outcomes”.

6. AA abruptly ends the meeting, everyone leaves before sun-up. Boo fuqn HOO!!

This was the battle of little big horn for the lawyers.

Note to lawyers:

NEXT TIME: DONT SPEND SO MUCH TIME ON THE ROAD BOYS AND GIRL (and looks like someone listened to my comment of bringing the bamboo ladders but used it to get over barbed wire. Hmm.. didn’t think of that use.. I was thinking about getting on top of the containers.

My take: pakistan has changed forever.

Well done lawyers!
Congrats to Pakistanis that we still have the spirit for justice.

Sorry Zardari led PPP aka Munafiqs were missed

Great job Aitzaz. Congrats from the USA. Now “Establish a new party with CJ” to include educated middle class for the real essense of democracy. We need to get out of this “jagirdar” politicians who have given NOTHING to Pakistan rather looting and they are liability on nation. Attorneys are the cream and combining educators we can really bring a revolution, an economic revolution as well. Why you and CJ has to be #2 always. This is Sharifs and Zardari who have to be #2 or 3 now. Don’t let them hijack Pakistan’s educated middle class LAWYER’S movement. This is advise to consider. You wil have 100% support and we will give great economic development package, which “jagirdar: politicians always blocked. Let Mush also pay the price of his mistakes of CJ removal and NRO; which you and CJ MUST oppose because never in the world looters, murderers, and criminals are set free like this NRO. LET’S MAKE A POLITICAL PARTY.

The long march has given the establishment as big shock as the elections of 18th February. This is the biggest offensive by the political forces in the last few months. Long march is going to have very long lasting consequences. I completely agree with Aitzaz Ahsan (although it is very hard to prove how he is right?) that the nations has covered light years in few seconds, there are so many aspects to this long march , earlier I described couple of myths that were busted by the long march , here are couple more.
1. The month of June , is hottest in Pakistan. Pakistan have seen big leaders and very large rallies and gatherings however never ever in the history a leader embarked upon such a optimistic plan for mobilizing masses in the month of June. AA himself told in his speech how he was warned that this long march could be a flop show. But this long march have shown that the people of Pakistan have now realization which they never had before. AA has set new standard of popularity and leadership since 1969. The future political leaders of Pakistan will have difficult task meet this standard.
2. After 18th of October’s blast in karachi , it was being used as the speed breaker for any popular uprising. Leaders and masses were being convinced that any huge rally will be sabotaged by the terrorist , an environment of fear and terror was created. The long march in the heart of Islamabad have busted all the myths of Pakistan hot bed of terrorists and the hub of terrorist’s activities.

….
So what’s next. I do think that the honorable judges will now be restored without constitutional package. I also think that an impeachment is on the cards for the mad dictator and after the impeachment he would be arrested. Political forces are now on a major offensive , this one is bigger that I ever imagined , the demands are not for establishment to move back to barracks , it is now instead about pay the price. NS’s speech sentence have stuck in my mind.

Phaansiaan aur mul budri kia sirf siaasatdaanoon ka muqadder hai.

Politicians wants justice , and justice from independant judiciary and justice for the crimes against nation. There demands have far exceeded establishment’s expectations. So would establishment bow down ? No.

if assume that Kiyani ordered army/agencies not to involve in elections then how 18 Feb could be shock to establishment? contrary how 18 Feb could be achieved without army not being neutral or near neutral?

who could envision blast in rally of this magnitude in Islamabad, in front of state offices? assuming agencies are the master planner of these activities

As I said yesterday if Mush is not the ecape goat then Doggar is must

now see what Ch. nisar is saying… the king maker - the saudis will be the host of Mush…. bringing things in equilibrium - the status quo will maintain - army reinvigorated as ‘parsa’ and politicians facing the music…..

aoa

the only way is to jam the system, but its lawyeres who will have to make sacrifice and boycott courts indefinately

The Long March was a great show. I think whatever they were targetting, they acheived.
Although, some of the youg lawyers were not happy with the desision of not going for ‘Dharna’, but after all, leadership has to consider broder context.
Don’t forget this is the first movement in the history of Pakistan which is fully backed and supported by white-collar, middle-class, educated and other civil sectors. Majority of people from these sectors are not used to movements and Dharna’s. They have to be trained.

I am sure there were some elements who were planning for choas in the name of ‘Dharna’. It was right and timely decision of the leadership not to go for dharna at that moment.

In the history of Pakistan, I remember only three events, setting a record people’s participation and gathering, to express the feelings and public opinion.
1. The Funeral procession of the Quaid-i-Azam in 1948, at Karachi.
2. The reception of Benazir Bhutto in 1986 at Lahore.
3. The recent Long March for the restoration of Justice in 2008 at Islamabad.
Whoever, ( like Salman Taseer) fails to accept the tempo of the event, needs counseling to do more home work before entering the political and public field.

Salman Taseer seems to be a phsyco… he is a ‘nadaan dost’ of PPP…

anybody knows the link to CRICKET final. youth.com not working. plz help, its getting exciting atleast i can see the 2nd innings

For Rehman Malik its only 20,000 people!! this stupid guy does not know that in ordinary Juma prayer in lal masjid, the attendance is between 12000-15000

BUHAT SHOOOR SUNTAY THAY PAHOOO MAIN DILL KAAA
MAGGAR — CHERRRAA TOOO IKKK QATARAA - E - KHOON NIKLAA

—-
I AM DISAPINTED………………..

http://www.streamsbox.com
http://live-sports-streaming.blogspot.com/

above links for cricket final

@chottibibi

Kuch to nazuk mizaaj hain hum bhi
Aur ye chote bhi nayee hai abbhi

Shor barpa hai khana -e-dil me
koi dewaar si giri hai abbhi

koi taza hawa chali hai abbhi

There are some observations which I want to make

1. First of all the rally should have been called off in the middle of night because teh morning was important when parliament was in session
2. Secondly after so many days - the end was not good - because if AA thought they didnt had the resources then why did he got people to waste their time and money on this
3. The objectives were two - throw Musharraf out and get judges in - both have not been acheived so why all this hue and cry.
4. I believe lawyers should think ten times before giving any call again because such calls would damage their cause rather than further it - they have politicised it and now they are neither here or there.
5. The show was very good and so many people turned up but the end was not good - in fact if they had waited for the day - more than a million people would have gathered there
6. AA again let Musharraf off the hook - why doesnt he understand that if Musharraf goes it would become 100 times easier for Zardari to restore judges even by executive order - the resistance is from Musharraf and Army and they should be dealt first rather than forcing the Parliament to do it.

@mbokhari:

Waqt achcha bhi Aa-e gaa naasir
Gham nah kar, zindigi paRi hai abhi.
.

sorry it should read - the rally should NOT HAVE BEEN CALLED OFF

Salman Taseer is ENEMY OF PPP and Zardari is so stupid to have appointment him as governer. Zardari is bent upon destroying PPP even before his son has chance to take over.

@TK

haha

touché !!

@ TK , mbokhari

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJ6gVvPCYM

Party which is supporting lawyers cause at the moment and have ninety one seats in the parliament was not willing for sit in etc. thats why their leader in his speech said that we have to consult/think and i have requested AA etc.

between the lines message was not to do that…

so pls pls do not say ba things about lawyers…look at the facts before undue criticizing

and for those who thinks that due to 500 people who try to break the obstacles caused the end of rally live in fools paradise ..i am sure that they never attended any political rally in their whole life and by writing on internet they think they are the experts of everything…

in every rally say 50,000 people 200-300 people are always emotional and law enforcement agencies were there to control them and they controlled them also and there was not a big panic…

also do not blame these 200 people for not having sit in…do u think that if these people would have not been crossed obstacles then there was a plan of sit in?

thats all fake arguments…majority party in parliament is not willing to restore judges and second majority party (91 seats) was not ready for sit in ..due to their own responsibilities as coalation partners and how comes lawyers can have bad relations with everybody in parliament..

those who are writing against lawyers should rethink and they should ask these questions i.e why not sit in etc. from second largest party in national assembly…..

thanks

i hope my comments will not be deleted

@sleepingnation

Why should they be deleted? I see no reason. You have every right to air your views, and I am sure your views are NOT against the movement or the democratic forces, but only reflect a disappointment over the sudden close down of the Long March.

Btw: AA is great, but in between he makes strange decisions. I hope he can straighten up a little more.

/Saqib

@

saqib

why should they be delted?

its a very good questions…but anything about second largest party is most of the times not allowed…i would not say anything more to avoid a discussion….

anyway AA has to consult with political leadership before making such a decision of sit in etc. and political leadershup requested him not to do that for various reasons….let us accept that fact and not criticize AA..

@sleepingnation: I think your allegations are baseless. Actually I’ve seem many rallies go out of control and it always starts with a very small group of people.

In any case, even if enough police were there, the lawyers shouldn’t have taken that chance.

NOW.

I think the lawyer leadership WAS NOT READY for this kind of street power to show up and they are only used to the bar-council discipline.. but not to people getting out of control … no-one seems to know who these people were.

SAC and PTI have not issued any “Tardeed” so maybe I was wrong (thinking they are agencies ppl) and they _were indeed_ PTI and SAC students ?

I think I mentioned this before, but it bears repeating again:

Parade Ground ended up becoming the “Battle of Little Big Horn” … General Custer lost the battle not because the native american tribesmen were superior force, but because he completely exhausted his soldiers marching to the battle

See, if they had marched for 5 days. wouldn’t it make sense to REST for a day in pindi before arranging for the final rally?

This only shows the in-experience of the lawyers with these kinds of events, but I think they’ve learned a lesson, showed what they can muster, and now should plan their next steps carefully.

They need to counter the insinuations by the govt/ppp/Q/mqm media cells which are out in full force today labelling it “A FAILURE”

Hudabiya was termed a failure too.

The tension created by the unresolved nature of the ending of this event will give shape to great revolutions. I only say this because I feel it at a gut level. I can feel it. I can feel it.

@sleepingnation: I say this because I personally have started riots..

it is very easy to do.

@TK

I knew you were one those guys

/Saqib

@Sleepingnation

We should not jump to conclusions so fast. Though I am also a little disappointed I would NOT say this movements is a failure. I would rather say the mission is achieved with limited success. IMO maximum success could be achived by having ”dharna” with a few thousand people staying.

I hope we don’t need to make another Long March, but I think it will be neceassary-MushTanda and his party PPP are quite donkey minded.

I hope that the leadership is able to make foolproof planning instead of ad hoc decisions (The usual Pakistani way). The leadership need to get the momentum going. It is VITAL!

/Saqib

@

TK

first of all this rally was not out of control..if out of 500,000 only 500 try to break the obstacles ynd then these 500 were controlled by police then by any means it was not out of control

you have not answer to the questions:

do you think that if these 500 people would not have tried to break the obstacles then there was a plan of sit in? and to stay longer and only due to these 500 people rally was finished immediately?

second leader of second largest party in his speech mention that i requested AA that we need a big consultation before any further step..and Latif Afridi and others also mentioned that so it means there was no plan for such a sit in etc…

there was a code of conduct agreed by lawyers , adminstration and political leadership before rally reached islamabad and do you think that Govt. would allowed and facilitate lawyers and people , if they know that lawyers and public will stay here for 48 hours and encircle parliament? ofcourse No..

and please read AA latest statement that No sit in was planned…….

so just for your own personal bias against JI and PTI etc. not to blame 500 people which in your opinion stopped a revolution..come on

anyway now do not blame me as a supporter of JI..by the way i am against them more than anybody else and i know their real hypocrite face but they are not important in this whole matter

please try to be more logical in your thinking and again refer to AA statement that there was no plan of sit in at all

Thanks

Just catching the tail end of 50 mins i think.. some dude is saying that this movement heralds a sea change!

Cheer up my friends!
It was the first standoff
between the People and The Saamraaj!

It was Tabook ! it was no Uhud!
A shot across the bow of the sinking ship of Kleptocracy,
and its remote-controlling masters.

It may not feel like it right now,
but it was a Historic Victory!

@sleepingnation:

Sit-in isn’t the point anymore. What the lawyers themselves didn’t realize was the response that was dormant within the population.

I agree they should have organized the logistics slightly better, but this was BEYOND everyone’s expectation, and I think it put the fear of gawd into even Nawaz Sharif and Aitezaz Ahsan.

They realized last night the power they have at their beck and call. The fact that they could call it off is also being appreciated in GHQ and the “kleptablishment” right now.

And what you say about 500 out of 500,000 is incorrect.

First of all, it was 80 people max.

Secondlly, A spark in a barrel of gunpowder is only 3 particles of burning gunpowder at the start. It doesn’t mean it will stay that way,

A match in a dry forest is 1 square inch of burning forest, but if you don’t check it , it would burn thousands of acres down. They checked it. that’s all.

Your gungho attitude tells me you’ve never been in the situation when mobs go out of control. It is the most potent force on the face of the planet. A mob of 500,000 people could have brought bloody revolution to Islamabad last night. YOU CAN BE SURE OF THAT!

But should _that_ be the outcome of a constitutional supremacy movement? Who would “win” in this situation?

Do you know who “won” the movment against the Shah of Iran? The mullahs. But they weron’t the main force. They were more like what Jamat Islami is right now (much more academic and more brains though).

Today, everyone is thinking how much worse it could have gotten. And IT DIDN”T !

All thanks to the leadership of the Lawyers Movement.

@sleepingnation

U have used word ‘adminstration’, and becos word ADMIN goes under moderation, tat was the reason ur comment was being mderated.

Please be psotive yaar and relax. I can assure no commetns are deleted here as long as these are following the rules as agreed by everyone when submitting the comment.

Nawaz stole the show for his political purpose and Mush bashing. This was unethical on part of lawyer’s movement who say that it is non-political. This has become political. Why lawyers did not focus on LEGAL ISSUE OF NRO BY FREEING CRIMINALS, LOOTERS, & MURDERERS. MUSHARRAF COMMITTED CRIME ON NOVE 3 AND ALSO BIGGEST CRIME OF “N.R.O.”, WHICH SHOULD BE REVERSED.

And you know what makes me suspect they were “Agen Provacateurs” ??

They were carrying WHITE FLAGS. Good thinking eh?

How do you get 50 bad apples to congregate before they start the riot?

You carry a flag with a color YOU ARE SURE NO ONE ELSE WILL CARRY:

The color WHITE.

@

TK

my point is same that by no means we can blame lawyers that they called off the show..infact everything went according to the plan and code of conduct

only i differ with you about these 80 people (anyway i read it 300-500) …by no means they are responsible for stopping any prolonged proceedings (sti in, dharna or whatever)

and please come out of JI fobia (mullas will take over etc etc) ..they are stupid Mullas and failed from last 61 years..they cant accelerate or deaccelerate any movement..noone listen to them

@sleepingnation:

Lao Tzu say:

“nevel undulestimay yo enmi, nevel ovalestimay yosel”

GOONGGGG!!!

P.S. I have a healthy respect for those I consider my opponents. It is only prudent to do so. (you can count the people in the frames.. they’re NOT 300 let alone 500)

mobs go out of control over football games, there was carnage between a lot of games in the english premier league, where the hooligans drunk in victory and those depressed in loss, just battled heads like wackjobs..

i think the lawyers leadership were prudent in their efforts to stem the anger.

Confucius, what gleat man. Confucius, he say:

-Lawyer who jump off cliff, jump to concrusion!

-Befole you embalk on a journey of levenge, dig two glaves.

-Rawyer who sneeze without tissue take matter in his own hand.

-Don’t sweat the petty things … and don’t pet the sweaty things

i didn’t see nawaz take advantage of something (wrongly or rightly) the lawyers had given to him ; a large gathering of anti-msharaff people. i ask; why didn’t HE…(put the event management shortcomings of the lawyers to one side for now) and ask and answer WHY DIDn’T Nawaz take it all the way home??

@kafka8

WHY DIDn’T Nawaz take it all the way home??
————————-

- hmm, would have been unethical?
- would have stolen the limelight?
- it was the lawyers project and he left it like this
- did the right thing
- did not damage the movement by making it a PMLN show?
- SAVED the movement from getting out of control due to establishment agents

@mobkhari

none of your answers…seem plausible…got anything else? more real politik??

@admin ! where is Imran’s speech agaisnt Mr. NRO?

yea kafka…How about?

- The army had warned all parties to stick with the script or else be ready to hear the Qom se Khitab by Kiyani?
- Didn’t want to lose Punjab government
- Going all the way in Islamabad would have been bad for the anti-Musharraf forces considering the external situation vis-a-vis US

I am more amazed and befuddled by IK’s behavior. Also Qazi and Achakzai were MIA

@sleepingnation & TK

I dont know why u guys are talking about JI so negatively. Just probe the history and you will find most of the leadership present in different parties are groomed by JIs nursery. Get over your hatred against a party shown its participation from Karachi till Peshawar without any personal gains

Strange AA said they don’ t have resources for a “dharna”….if NS is so sincere with lawyers and that is his key agenda…don’t know why could he not provide resources…..with gov. of punjab in his pocket and his strength in punjab…he could have easily provided resources for “Dharna”……….then again,why IK/JI did not muster up resources for “dharna”..especially JI could have provided their well organized resources for a “dharna”…………civil society is pretty resourceful……..this is not an issue of resources…….there is some thing fishy going on……

I think this is clearly reflective of a rift and lack of clear direction within the movement regarding the strategy to move forward….don’t know why IK and Qazi did not stay till the end..NS, AA, IK and Qazi should have been the last four speakers….it looked like a revolving door…leaders stopped by and gave their speeches and left their supporters alone…….I think the people attending the rally were very sincere but their leaders let them down……..I feel it is a lost opportunity……the good thing is IMC did not appear that would have politicized him……

@mobkhari

so the SHER turned out to be NOT? along with aitezaz…..thereof the slogans of ’sauda baazi nahi chalay ghi’ ….dont get me wrong …trying to understand the forces at play….

and yes…why were IK , qazi, achakzai missingZ?

@kafka8: Can you find out from your friends at SACLahore whether or not the people trying to incite a riot were SAC people? they were carrying a SAC banner along with PTI flags (IJT flags were conspicuously missing — maybe they is just nice ppl!)

Where is SAC’s take on this?

I don’t see it on pklongmarch.blogspot.com

what gives kafka8?

I am saying from day one APDM/NS is playing politics with the lawyers movement……they have their own agenda and they are just using the lawyers movement to leverage their agenda…..this long march is clear reflection of it….IK/Qazi and NS should have stayed till the end…….IK has been so vocal about it…when it was climax time…..he was missing…..what was more important thing he had to do……same with Qazi sb and NS…..all should have stayed at the end…and should have ended the rally with a thunder….by joining hands and by some emotional slogans regarding the support of judges and against Mush…..that would have taken some pressure off regarding “dharana”……….

@tk

waiting to hear from the friend myself. will let u know

lucky Irani circus?

is Mush really so lucky or Army is really still behind him? is it really the taste of government that PPP and NS experiencing after long time or its globalization impact?

From the US to Saudis… From NS to AZ…. But then why ex-army man service was so vocal and active?

perhaps problem with disturbing the equilibrium is how new equilibrium will be reached and WHAT IF not reached?

@kafka8: thx dude!

I have a strong feeling the dharna was cancelled because of the indiscipline of some people. The lawyer leadership didn’t want to wipe out all the gains made during the whole of the long march by a nasty incident that would have caused problems…

@TK

i dont think so tk. but i trust this friend. so i will wait for his take before i form my opinon on this one.

@SHAZ: “dont know why u guys are talking about JI so negatively. ”

Actually I suspect either JI or the Marxists (International Socialist) (?) if it weren’t the agencies.. because they are very good at leveraging the power of the crowds. Especially JI… socialists are no way near as organized and well versed as JI in “street power” tactics.

@kafka8:

my take on the NS issue is that there is a difference (and ought to be) between the “show” of street power vs “actual use” of street power.

A peaceful show always brings good results eventually ..
A use of street force usually is unpredictable and can cause more harm than good.

We need to realize that the Lawyer’s movement is indeed revolutionary, but “Constitutionally Revolutionary” sense and not in the ‘French Revolution’ sense.

I’m the biggest fans of guillotines being setup on Constitution Avenue, but I don’t think Lawyers can be (or SHOULD be) the people to do it.

I think if we bring back a half way decent and independent judiciary (starting with CJ Iftikhar M. Choudhary) We will see the “legal guillotines” in action… severing the usurpers from their power.

The biggest severing of all.

@tk

wonder if you are familiar with a book called ‘rules for radicals’ by saul d. alinsky??

Long March One Person Short Of Success

@kafka8: never heard of the guy… I did my protests the old fashioned way.. spur of the moment and by seat of the pants! hehehe

@kafka8:
–
According to Alinsky, the main job of the organizer is to bait an opponent into reacting. “The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.”
–

hmm.. I like this guy already!

@mbokhari: right on! .. its funny cuz it’s troo!

@tk

thought you might find it interesting

our Rehman Malik can now say that he at-least gave a larger figure than what the BBC gave - 15,000!!!!
Here is the link…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7454322.stm
The actual phrase is ‘numbering at-least 15,000′ - therefore hedging themselves against misreporting…

there is a section of comments below the news item…please register your comment, specially these who attended the event…

a bbc friend based in isloo….had the same claim…or so..20,000 he said…had a big pow wow with him..

what gives??

can someone confirm…if this was really that low>>?? what does bbc gain from putting it that way!!???

I am writing to BBC and want to send them links to videos on this site…
can I request anyone who has seen videos on this site to tell me which one will be most appropriate to show the number of people.
I will be grateful..
the video they have put is such taht it only gives close-ups and thus fails to show the strength of the crowd.

@kafka8: thanks dude, I’m scouring the internet for it right now.. he seems to concur with my notions about use of street power:

His rule no. 9:

9. The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.

@admin: please upload 50min .. it is a very good discussion and analysis of yesterday’s event’s and one of the judges addressed it very succinctly and logically (read: he agrees with me … hehehe)

@c hussain

I totally agree with your assessment except for point #6.

6. AA again let Musharraf off the hook - why doesnt he understand that if Musharraf goes it would become 100 times easier for Zardari to restore judges even by executive order - the resistance is from Musharraf and Army and they should be dealt first rather than forcing the Parliament to do it.

AA not only left Mushi off the hook, he also let AZ off the hook. This is nothing but the result of getting into two boats. It is clear to all that AZ is the major beneficiary of NRO and as such would never restore CJ. It is also clear that in case CJ is restored, Mushi will be ousted. Therefore unless AA supplements his instance by distancing himself away from PPP, he is never going to paing AZ with the same brush that he uses for Qayyu, Pirzada and Mushi. This is hurting the movement in big way and also creating doubts about his sincerity towards the cause. This is why we saw the 1st time (which AA not only realized but mentioned in his speech too) that there were slogans against his characters.

In short it was an anticlimax and has bloated the charismatic personality of AA, I wish it could have either ended in a better way or would have not ocurred at all as it would now be extremely difficult to get common men out on the street for a National cause. The lawers have been very persistent and showed an alternate to political leadership but unfortunatley last night it took a big blow.

I have serached many foreign newspapers and it seems they are either using the term ‘tens of thousans’ or 20,000 or 40, 0000 max….
let us try and challenge this ‘propoganda’….
most of were unable to participate in the march but we can now contribute by challenging foreign reporting of the event…
being in the West, many of us are well-suited to do this..

please share any sources - particular visual - taht show more reliable estimates

BBC knows EXACTLY how many people were there. I brought this up yesterday. The western media always downplays democratic movements in their target victim countries and scream about areas where their secret services just _happen_ to be operating to bring about an orange/pink/yellow/mauve revolution.

In Kieve, the number of western reporters was larger than the bloody “democrats” it seems…

This is EXACTLY why I wanted independent aerial photos of the processions. Because the west and it’s cronies/proxies in pakistan (also known as the Kleptocracy/Establishment) will always, always, suppress such empowering pictures.

I have a 1 EUR note in my pocket that says you can’t get me an aerial photograph of the event in the next .. umm I dunno.. 2 weeks at least? I haven’t seen any pictures even from the Geo offices… why not? they see the thing from their roof no?

I think the best antidote to this BS propaganda would be to publish some aerial pics.

@tk

alinsky has an earlier book….reville …something..

@ibnerazi

good idea…perhaps admin could create a thread for people to post appropriate pics links&#