Kal Tak - 15 June 2008
Aitzaz Ahsan with Javed Chaudhry in a fresh episode of Kal Tak.
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Pakistan Politics |
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Aitzaz Ahsan with Javed Chaudhry in a fresh episode of Kal Tak.
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javed ch writing something and suddenly start talking like a robot..he has to change ´this..looks very strange
Aitezaz Ahsan on the defensive!
no wait!! he’s on the offensive!… wait wait!
back on the defensive!…
AeN baaeN shaaeN… they did make people feel like it was gonn be DROP SCENE but then just finished the march…..
I don’t know who to blame… hoye! oye!
aitzaz looking very unhappy from his face expression at the start
awesome exchange! I told you it was the crowd that was the reason…
3rd MLK JR reference!
I WIN!!! (ps I’m back to being an Aitezaz groupie.. and I ain’t too proud to admit)
it was a bit of a fuqup but If I’m gonna cut someone any slack, it’s gonna be AA and his merry band of lawyers!
Javed Choudhary bein an OAF as usual..
yeh dharna kab tak ho jay ga?
neeN neeN dharna… matbal yeh.. maNReh keh dharna kab hoga?
aitzaz looking very unhappy trying to defend his position..it means that aitzaz delt very strongly reaction from some lawyer groups and also justice waji uh din..
I can’t believe AA granted his very first interview after the long march to this guy.. I’m really disappointed.
In all fairness, I don’t doubt AA’s intentions.
But his mistake was:
- Not enough deliberations earlier
- Not sufficient communication with the public over the goals of the long march.
History will be the best judge.
In AA’s defense his plan appears to be “Marches R US” i.e. a bunch of marches one after another.
But in my opinion, laton kay bhoot baton say nahee mantay. Shameless characters like AZ can’t be shamed with long marches.
I
If AA must have a foot in PPP, it should be on AZ’s a$$, nowhere else.
I got impressed that Aitzaz Ahsen is convinced on the proposal of 29 judges (deposed PCO ones).
The one who convinced him is his old buddy Nawaz Sharif. Just recall Khawaja Asif sitting to Sherry Rehman endorsing her stance on judges (29).
I think PPP is right to say that they took NS into confidence before putting 29 judges proposal on budget document but with understanding that his camp will keep on saying that they are not aware of it.
PPP accepted the condition but in return Nawaz Sharif had to get the Long March abolished without very cilmax like situation.
Cant someone tell this guy not to give us a history lesson each time he starts…peeleeease!
only ATI (anjuman talba islam) and PTI members and only some younger lawyers want “dharna” only 200 people want dharna
out of 200 who wanna dharna all were satisfied with Aitzaz Ahsan only 20 were not satisfied
I admire AA’s efforts but it was a big mistake of not going for dharna after such a successful long march..
You said it poola. Judges will be restored along with PCO judges. AA says it too around the 27th minute.
WIll IMC be the CJ or Dogar?
Will PPP limit CJ’s tenure to 3 years?
Will PPP add a condition that a CJ can’t be appointed a CJ twice, hence shutting the door on IMC.
NS and AA are making a mistake by trusting AZ, he’ll never let IMC sit as the CJ. This will be another broken promise.
From the body language of AA he seems to be a person speaking with confidence. Doesn’t look like a liar, but at the same time hee seems to be worried and irritated from the expression of his face.
Btw: What did MLK change in USA?
The blacks of America are still at the bottom of the society and rotting up in jails.
/Saqib
They say a good compromise is when everybody gets something and no-one goes home happy.
I guess we may be heading towards that… I’m not sure how I feel about it though.
Dharna was practically impossible because the roads around there are huge and sitting there to make it a real show required a lot more people plus the scorching heat would have made it impossible to sit under the sun. The dharna would have failed anyway. The lawyers who are blaming AA of striking a deal are the ones who were sold.
There seems to be a communication failure too. The leadership failed to give a clear announcement of what was to happen once the masses reached Islamabad.
/Saqib
and barrack obama is a member of kkk….ofcourse MLK made a difference…true the blacks are still at the bottom of it all….but they have been rising….they will rise…it is a long journey that started from slavery to legal racial discrimiantion in the 60s …less then 50 yrs ago…to finally having a black candidate running for white house.
@Kafka8
You are dreaming just like MLK.
/Saqib
@saqib
hehe…i quoted MLK at the start of ’shoWdown 2″ …rather prophetic…but then i didn’t mean it to be..hehehe
frankly i wanted a dharna….desi style…
I like AA’s train march idea! Stay in the train… just speak FROM the caboose and move on to the next station…
maybe it should be a motorized “Thelaa” (cart) march?
hiyuk hiyuk!
B. Obama as KKK member…he.he. For me he could almost be. He is eager to show himself as more white that the whites and more christian the Christians and more Jew friendly than any of the other contestants.
MLK had a vision but the black people of America has been systematically downtrodden to a point where they are going in circles now (mostly back and forth from jail). Very few black people climb to the top, and if they succeed at all then it is usually on “white” terms. It is sad but true.
/Saqib
i love this guy AA. he is dead sincere n erudite dude..
to TK
em normally amused by ur comments but i cant stop wondering how bloody farigh u r to be commentin on videoz all day long ..lolz. i thought k mein bohat farigh hon but u ave sure surpassed me by milez.
u r a pkpolitics celebrity in ur own rights now
keep posting
@kevindude: hehe.. just as I was about to step out… I’ve been waiting for the “post pindal videos” since friggin friday man… give me a break..
and yeah.. I need to cut down on me hanging out on around here… for reals.
There is a chance of dharna in future ..let us see
some people in Josh Khitabat said about dharna (may be referring to Ali Ahmed Kurd)
is Ali Ahmed Kurd also rightist Mulla who wanna take over by Dharna? question to those who claim that we know deep inside situation…..
to TK
n8 at all man .! u shudn’t cut down the air time…. ppl wud n8 be tht pleased if they don see ur comments in these windowz….i guess everybody who has visited pk politics knw tht there is TK whom u can find on any page of this site…..n em sure after sumtime pkpolitics wud ave 2 pay u 4 ur comments:D n Gawd knows if other sites ave to hire u 4 ur xpertise as part ov a succesful busines plan..
n em serious man .. u r a celebrity here.:D ask any1 n they wud know TK. it’s time u shud take this profession seriously n make it ur full time job;)
Javed Chaudry acting strange here…
@tk and saqib
hope you realise that all these references; french revolution, MLK, vietnam….they are not for the consumption of your local market..
you gotta give it to this guy…he is more then erudite…!!
Every body who is disappionted at NO DHARNA was also disappionted when NS announced to take part in elections….we all were angry on his decision to take part in elections but time has proven us wrong.
I am amzed ,really amazed that NS is taking all the right steps from last year or so …he is playing his cards like a real champion ….after all he has 23 years of political exp behind him….at the moment no political person in pakistan has that much experience…Usually people dont enjoy popularity once they have been in power but look at NS he has been CM for 5 years,PM for 5 yrs(both terms combined) and minister for few years in zia’s cabinet…and look at his popularity …man this guy has really impressed me by his tactics…..
Pulling up a massive crowd and then no DHARNA is a master stroke…here are the reasons
1-pml-n is in govt in punjab,they are also so called allie in center….dharna wouldve been an elaan-e-jung against govt which wouldve put ppp and pmln at logger heads and would benefit pmlq and mush
2-this govt is only few months old and if this presedence is set then in future govts which most likely belongs to NS ,ppp would take revenge in the same way.
3-pro ppp element specially in sindh wouldve cursed NS if he would go all the way against ppp govt…remember this govt is only 3 months old and sindhi people can’t tolerate that any body destabilize there party.
4-if it would be a 2 year old govt then going all out against the ppp govt wouldnt have been bad idea but its toooo early at this time,bringing 300000 people alone is enough at this time.to show the strength of judiciary cause
5-NS knows that shahbaz sharif if stays as CM in punjab he would do alot for punjab and that would help him alot in next elections.Shahbaz sharif is respected as best CM in our history even by his oppostion peope.he has been a gr8 administrator …a workalholic…
destabilizing ppp at center would mean destabilizing shahbaz sharif also …and again its too early to start this mess…..gathering the gigantic crowd ,steeling the show and delevering a killing speech is enough work by NS to humiliate AZ at the moment .
cheers
imran malik
us va
@tk
kevindude has a point
you can get mbokhari, peja to go with u…..the good, the bad and the ugly.
ofcourse y’all can take turns being clint eastwood ..hehehe
Javed Chaudry just had too many questions. He should let AA finish his answers. There is no point in putting forward new questions, when the old ones are not answered.
/Saqib
@KevinDude:
haha…I have always thought so too. That TK has too much friggin time on his hands to be commenting all day long. My guess is, either he is a retired senior citizen or has a desk job as a code monkey programmer.
TK sure is an institution here at pkpolitics. He has given it a personality and ambience. And he is a red-rag to MQM and religious crazies. They just can’t stand him. Proud to have been his wingman….;-)
But you are forgetting the anti-TK, the arch-nemesis of TK, the bette-noire of TK : Paindooooo!!!! …
I am sure if Paindoo and TK ever met, the space-time fabric will be ripped to shreds, gravity will become infinite and the universe will collapse on itself. If you think TK is farigh to comment intelligently on developing situations, think about the yokel Paindoo who copies TK’s messages, analyzes them in his cave and then posts it on his blog allah build pakistan something…..
haha….imagine that.
What. A. Loser !!
You go, TK! (theek hay? teekay?)
Semper Fidelis!
NS has been CM for 5 years,,pm for 5 years and a minister for few years in zia’s cabinet as well….3 years of leader of opposition….means 16 years of glory and luxury and protocol …but look at his awsome luck …that he is the most popular leader we have today ……he is indeed one lucky guy.
imran malik
Some Inside Look that I have just recieved and have verified:
1 - Aitezaz Ahsan NEVER left PPP, he is leading the lawyer movement as per PPP BB/Asif Zardari’s instruction. The goal here is to save PPP from NRO guarantors pressure to work with Musharaff and show them that it is not possible to work with Musharaff as per publics opinion . At the same time PPP wants to use Musharaff to direct all public pressure towards him that he is the reason for all their problems. They know that once Musharaff is out, Public, PMLN and APDM will come hunting them and that is why they are playing this double game. Surprisingly every one in the top administrative brass of Islamabad knew that their will be NO DHARNA and Police will have to give a escape route to Lawyer leaders at the end. Only the thousands of thirsty, tired and hungry people did not know this !
2. Nawaz Sharif, PMLN wants to prolong the judges issue and use this until they kick Musharaff out. PMLN has clearly said to the Foreign powers that they can compromise on Judiciary but not on Musharaff. Once Musharaff is out, PMLN is going to attack PPP and will try to sweep in coming elections. PMLN has many open options. This is another reason that Aitezaz Ahsan did not go for dharna as requested by Nawaz Sharif.
3. Musharaff was at the brink of collapse. But to his credit, he has gained power in last few days and is ready to accomplish more through “divide n rule” along with Foreign, MQM, PMLQ and establishment’s support.
4. Army is totally with Musharaff as evident from many Musharaff and Kiani meetings, but this does not mean that they will help him through 58/2/B as there is intense resistance from Public and even Foreigners do not want another IRAN.
5 - JI, PTI tried to hijack the long march but they did not succeed because of confusion regarding the end result of this long march. They did come but waited for instructions from Aitezaz and Company BUT they were not informed about the decisions till last minute.
6 - A clear divide in lawyer’s community now. No need to explain further !
DECEPTION is the best secret political tool………….!!
aoa
AA is right that they did not do dharna. But the impression was given they were going to do something big.
Hello Admin
Is Dr. Shahid Masood and Hamid mir axed once again.
Please reply
Thanks
In my humble opinion this great long march was terminted a little prematurely. Every one should have stayed the follwing day when the parliament was in session and while Mush and his cronies were awake. That would have been more effective.
Secondly, Now the entire nation has learn and has discovered about the secret deal and working relationship between PPP and the criminal dictator, which was arranged by their foreign masters. Further more, we the citizens of Pakistan have also learned about the politicians who are crook and liars, and those who promise the nation and then take a u-turn.
@
riddle792
very nice analysis…i agree with you on most of points except for one that Aitzaz working as per zaradri instructions..i think that will be unfair..
apart from that very good analysis of current political situation …
@Kash218,
Dr. Shahid and Hamid Mir have been banned by UAE authorities. They are still trying to find out who actually banned them from Pakistani side as no one is claiming responsibility.
Dr. Shahid has conveyed hello to all pkpolitics viewers today.
Admin
JC is fazool insaan, he even don’t know how to conduct interview.
I think Dr.Shahid should take some rest, relax a bit, rethink about political situation coz he was not able to understand many things in his last programmes which even children in school can understand…
nahi..kaisay.. kaya ho ga..is ka matlab hay etc etc…
and his guests establishment chamchas were misleading people in last 3-4 episodes
NO DHARNA was a gr8 decision as was the decision to take part in ELECTIONS….
it took couple of months for our JAZBAATI JUNTA to understand that taking part in elections was good decision by NS…and after some time every one will be convinced about NO DHARNA decision.
that is y every tom dick and harry is not a politial leader..NS is NS ,,the most popular leader of pakistan….bc he is making all the right moves…
i think its not bad if these journalists remain ban for sometime as it brings them on right track in other words “zara tunka lagta rehna chahye”….otherwise they think that they know every law, constitution, politics , parliament supermacy, democracy etc etc and try to indulge people in strange debates……
after 18 th february keeping in view that PPP is in power, Hamid mir try to come in PPP good book and at times he went against lawyers movement by saying “parliament supereme hay…lawyers ko tahreek nahi chilani chahye etc etc…
both Dr.Shahid and particulary hamid Mir will perform much better and take a popular stance on issues when they will come back from this ban imposed by UAE sheikhs on the will of PPP`s Rehman Malik…
What a slobbering idiot is interviewing Aitzaz Ahsan. He needs hell of alot to learn about conducting a talk show…little weasel!
Absolutely agree with Aitzaz Ahsan that call for Dharna was not part of the program besides a group of emotional independent lawyers who were leading towards unrest. Though, Dharna could be the next move.
It was clear from Aitzaz Ahsan’s facial expressions that he is under no pressure from Zardari…also he does not give much $$hhittt about Zardari now, he is siding more with principles than with the god damn party.
@sleepingnation
Judges issue will be over TODAY or TOMORROW…. do u really think that he wants to ruin his political hardwork of the last 30 years. He is first n foremost politician. He wants a liberal political affiliation n PPP provides him that. He mentioned clearly in this interview that he advised BB to support Judiciary upon her return per NRO deal. He would like to see his coming generation in national politics as MNAs and ministers and etc. He is not stupid, its just DECEPTION being used.
He used to yell at Dogar n today he is accepting the 29 forumale. MY MY MY MY ….!! then why was the SHOW for the last one year….
@
imalik5525
even though i am a supporter of N league on number of issues but i must say that what is the criteria of great decision..every decision taken by Mian NS great decision?
Mian sahib was also willing to accept 29 judges ..was that also great decision?
One of the best analysis……….post long march event..
http://nawaiwaqt.com.pk/urdu/daily/june-2008/16/columns1.php
This is a very important interview. Because before that we all had our own guesses.
I tried to take notes while watching this episode couple of times:
— Was dharna decided before or not
9 min: I never said about dharna before
10 min: none of the 5 major bodies decided about the dharna.
I said that we will tell in the Jalsa.
— Who wanted dharna
Few lawyers wanted to do dharna but they were in minority.
ATI, PTI and few young lawyers were making noises for dharna.
Majority of the lawyers do not even now want dharan and they trust their leadership.
— Decision taken
18 min: It was a collective decision by lawyers.
20 min: Every one was ultimately satisfied except 10-20 people at the end.
— Reasons for decision
21 minutes: We made decision because we donot want to convert of a big Jalsa into 200-300 people dharna
No one was willing except 200-300 people.
It was a spot ground (no resources)
[35 min: AA agreed that few said it about dharna in 'heat of the moment']
— purpose of the long march
25 min: 2 things to achieve about the restoration
(1) mobilize people (and mission was accomplised)
(2) to realize the parliment, polical parties, [current] judges, army, intelligence agencies, presidence, America/UK, that people of Pak support restoration
[Why did he not explain all this in his speech?]
— Misc: Clarifications
This is lawyers decision not APDM.
Kurd was dehydrated
Donot know [reasons] about Achakzai [absence]
J. Wajihuddin would have been welcomed; it was an open call
MLK and [anti] Vietnam war protests were multiple.
— Next strategy
31 minutes: consultation with lawyers [now?!!! huh!]
Possible actions:
- International convention presided by Chief Justice
- More marches
- Train march
- If we say about dharna we will do dharna with preparation. Did not give any time frame for dharna.
We are with the lawyers. However, as we pushed every one for transparency we should ask them too for transparency.
Can someone compile the statements of lawyer leadership and AA about dharna decsion before the long march?
We should be open to criticize them on their judement calls. Criticism does not mean that We will not be supporting them.
We should be be ready to tell them that they could have reached to the same decision (of no-dharna) but in a way that would not have caused so much distrust and bad feeling. It is all about setting expectations straight. Why they did not make people understand “what we have achieved with long march and what is our next staregy” in their speeches. They need to do better in future.
@TK I admire your active participation, but my feedback is that you are stuck on one point: you wrote, “awesome exchange! I told you it was the crowd that was the reason…”
Please watch the video at 21 minutes to see AA’s reasons for making a decision for no-dharna (”do no want big jalsa converting to small dharna”, “spot ground / resources”).
Very good interview. AA cha gaya…
but, one thing is not clear..
in Column Kaar, Haroon Rasheed, was saying that everyone he spoke with wanted to stay…AA says majority did not want…
@mbokhari: ha! thanks for the support my man! but you know the “dude” has a point… I think @admain should pay me for “making his site a success” …;-) … I mean.. what would he do without me????
btw, you’re too modest .. if I remember correctly, it was you who sent that schizophrenic psycho over the edge… and it was glorious to watch! But at least he now knows how to create blogs on blogspot.com
It’s a skill ya know
I don’t know and really don’t understand at all whats going on and who is sincere but Know one thing for sure that “Justice delayed is justice denied”.
@melansar: hey thanks for putting that timeline up… I’ve said before that it is only a theory based on my observations of the crowd and the footage that I saw.
Maybe I’m pulling a peja here and being overoptimistic about Aitezaz Ahsan and his integrity. Even if he did it for some reason, out of all those people, I trust _HIS_ judgement more than the 80 or so “activists” who were trying to dictate their agenda to the lawyers. They tried to take over the discourse and disregarded orders.
It was a tactical decision (IMO… some people think there is a NS/AAZ/AA nexus slash conspiracy behind it… I don’t subscribe to that .. mostly.. ehem) and you know … they prolly got spooked.. well.. this is how it is. I’m willing to cut Aitezaz Ahsan some slack.
What I don’t like is (and this dislike is personal.. and I’m just another douche off the internet.. so take my BS with a pinch of salt plz) the hokey ‘criticisms’ of the leadership.
first it was: you can’t bring enough people
when they did, then it was … um.. there aren’t too many people…
when it turns out there is like half a mill (quarter million for sure)..
then it’s like well… you didn’t do a dharna.. the speeches weren’t upto par etc etc.
You know what.. I agree, the expectations had been set high and the abrupt ending (imo because of the spookage of the lawyers by the ATI/PTI ppl) didn’t take things to the crescendo that everyone was expecting… But I seriously don’t think people are thinking this thing through.
They could’ve sat there but people who were hellbent on taking control of the situation didn’t even want to sit there.. they wanted to jump over the barriers and make a run for the parliament (ruining all the gains made uptil then)
AA is in a tough spot. JI/ATI and PTI tried to stab him in the back but he can’t really bad-mouth them openly… (this is why he wants to do a sit in but a kind where people would not break discipline and try to hi-jack the agenda .. gullible fools in tow) .. and now Munnawar hasan is saying “well… it wasn’t JI party policy … it was probably some emotional youngsters… um.. and SO WHAT if they wanted to lay siege to the parliament?”
HUH? WTF? (and they brought bamboo ladders to cross barbed wire)..
I think our infantrymen are friggin stupid.. they could learn a thing or two from the Jamaatia’s … because all the army video’s I’ve seen they show the jawaans themselves falling on the barbed wire while their comrades use their bodies as temporary bridges…
if only they checked out JI’s rioting and seige tactics.
@adminBhai
Could we start a program where we could prepare the transcripts of the videos? Right now searching a video is a mammoth task.
At least we could start by associating a number of tags with each video and then one can search based on those tags. We could do it collectively. You could define 100-200 tags and users could associate the tags after watching a video. Plus you could allow users to create new tags also.
If we could have videos where people can add comments directly by clicking on a particular section of a video, we could use it as tags in the search.
read here … social tagging:
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue54/tonkin-et-al/
Capital Talk will come soon from the foot path and Nusrat Javed will be one of the guests.
Dr. Shahid Masood must also do a program outside and invite all distinguished journalists in that show.
@TK
I appreciate your thoughts, but man why do you speard the discussion in so many directions. And why each time you get into the JI bashing mode. What I have learned in my life is that never get overboard with someone’s love or hate that it starts consuming one.
Most of the people are not doubting AA’s sincerity, some are. Many of the people are disagreeing with his judegment, many are not. Most of the people are disagreeing with the way the end was approached, some are not.
The argument of 200-300 rioting people getting out of control is not given by AA. I read your examples about the “butterfly effect”, by for me that was close to being paranoid. 200-300 people theory is but a theory and my point is that this is not being advocated by AA … for whatever reasons.
There is a wide spread disappointmnet among people due to the anti-climax end. So my point is not about the decision reached … it is about the way it is reached. I earlier posted few links from bbc urdu from lawyers. Also, please read the comments by participants on pklongmarch. Haroon Rashid’s viewpoint in column kar … and also recent article posted by GM by Irfan Siddique.
@TK,
I don’t think there is a NS/AA/AZ nexus.
But how many times has AZ lied to NS in the past? AZ even says his promises are as good as his f@rt.
The saying goes, “Fool me once shame on you , fool me twice shame on me.”
NS and AA had AZ by his balls on June 14th and they let him get away for more intrigues and lies.
@melansar,
You are absolutely right when you say that we support the lawyers’ leadership but we need to hold them accountable.
Blind support is a disservice to your party.
You said it very eloquently in your last 10 lines, nothing left for me to add.
@melansar: I hear ya! I think my “cancellation due to unruly crowd” theory may be imploding .. but only if we get confirmation that “the fix was in” (I’m pointing to the article posted by someone which mentions that Zardari gave “rab day vaastay” to NS to get AA and IMC to reconsider dharna …)
Which brings us to @Kruman’s point, “…his promises are as good as his f@rt”
I would like to add that every time Zardari f#rts, which is pretty much every time he talks, the farts are more real than his promises.
@Kruman: I tend to agree with you that NS/AA may have set themselves up for more “intrigues and lies” .. if they did, they are bigger fools than I thought…:(
And ditto on “accountability of the lawyers” … I’m all for transparency (and “Party Democracy”)
@TK
You are dramatizing the situation. A number of young guys belonging to different parties wanted a sit-in and they were simply demanding this. Do u think that security allowed the participants to take along with them the bamboos or ladders. These sticks were probably the flag carrier and if they was any ladder they might have collected from police/stage logistics etc. Nothing to dramatize the simple situation. Your prejudice to a party is simply pulling you toward imbalance and bias ism.
Whats up with Kashif Abbasi…when is his off the record coming, any info?
@melansar
”do no want big jalsa converting to small dharna”
THAT statement alone by AA says it all. AA has repeated this again and again so to me it is the only reason why there was no sit in. Also note that at first he said he did not want the dharna because only 2000 people would have stayed and now he himself has reduced that figure to 200-300 people going through with it. Is this reduction in his estimate not intentional? Is he not reducing his estimate in reaction to the criticism he is getting for his calling off the dharna? Even if one is to accept his argument as his real belief, I say by stating it himself he has in effect sabotaged the strength of the long march and in effect said that of the quarter million or so present, only 200 to 300 were really serious (and the rest were there to party/picnic???…. And doesn’t this 200 figure throw most of the lawyers themselves among the ‘picnickers’?)
I believe AA is NOT being truthful and this is just a cop-out. He was asked by someone to call it off and he did. There was no ‘mushawarat among lawyers’ to call it off as he states. Yes — I am accusing him of lying.
Every indication was given by the lawyers that they would be doing a dharna — wasn’t the word “Gharao” used often and that it was to continue until the judges were restored? listen to any of the speeches of Kurd for example. If Kurd was stating something that was not to be, why wasn’t he corrected and stopped for making those statements?
javed ch. looks like a fooloish person (no ethics and intellect). AA body language shows he is clear about his objectives and also he is not lying - lawyers have gained through this long march
Javed C, was being a lil unfair with Justic Wajih…
I am a long time fan of JC but unfortunately he let me down today the way he conducted this interview.anyway gud luck next time.
AA and LAWYERS are making history,conducted such a successful LONG MARCH in a (unfortunately) very much divided nation under very harh WEATHER CONDITIONS.
keep up the gud work guyz.
i think people are unfair in accusing AA.
His answers to JC are clear. only other lawer community can reftute his assertions if he is lying.
secondly just try to understand the physical exhsaution ,that is evident from his looks speaks for itself that at his age it was the most he could deal with, other lawyers as kurd had endured even much.
Also just magine if this march had ended in any casualty then that would have been a blow to this peacfull struggle.
Listen to the guy….and u will appreciate his efforts.
Anyone ridiculing him is playing into hands of musharraf and AZ who wants this movement to be divided and lose its steam…beware of theses guys..they r the real traitors.
@nota
You have every right to think this way. My conclusions are:
1. MOST of the people are not doubting AA’s sincerity, SOME are.
2. MANY of the people are disagreeing with his judegment, MANY are not.
3. MOST of the people are disagreeing with the way the end was approached, SOME are not.
Currently, I donot feel that people in any of the above category are ill willed. However, it will be very helpful for us to support our respective positions with references and some figues. And let’s also keep in mind how our standpoint (or allegations) could be counter by others.
I was just listening to ‘Freakonomics’ and author made a point that people lie but facts donot. So one direction of work could be that someone compiles the statements of all the major lawyers - verbatim. After that there will be less room for interpretations.
Right now, for example, Aitezaz agree that few lawyers said the dharan in the ‘heat of the moment’ [Ironically that reminds me of AZ's notorious " ... that was a political statement". But still AA has a point, and I tend to agree that it is hard to check every one during such a short period of time]. The best way, however, to prove him wrong is to bring references that show him that many of the lawyers in fact made such statements … or even if Aitezaz made such a statement once, this is more than enough to prove him wrong.
Personally, I am more concerned about the abrupt ending even if the decision was no-dharna. It is essential for a leadership to bring their people to a point where they start empathizing their position.
It is good that we are scrutinizing the lawyers, because only then we could keep this movement transparent. But let’s do it with facts and figures …
Is there anyone out there to compile all the statements?
@melansar
i have heard what haroon rashid & irfan siddiqu has to say for the disappointment and AA role in it. i respect thier views a lot in general but on this i beg to differ . they r taking out thier frustration unfairly on AA. AA is definitely a leader among the lawyers leadership but he is no way a one man show and others are not his followers or party disciples..they r in them selves leaders..and i will only bllame AA if these other lawyers raise thier voice agianst AA for making the decision on his own.
its very sad tat we in one spur of the moment forgetss wat this man has achieved and endured in this struggle …we must stay united against those who don’t want judges restord …accusing each other won’t help this cause ….yes i was myself very dissappointed and had some second thoughts about AA but his interview is great and he clears up the confusion. this long march was a succsess in every way and now just a calll for dharna will do the trick.
@kjat
I actually do not have second thoughts about AA - yet. I still rank him a great leader.
Most of the people will not deny the accomplisments of the long march. It is the abrupt end that is hurting most of the people and is leaving a bad taste in the mouth.
BTW, as long as we remain honest to ourselves, and respectful to others, in our comments, we will not hurt the lawyers movement by sharing our comments.
@TK
What does Taban Khamosh mean? I would like to know…my urdu is a bit weak, sorry.
Salam Amigos
All Hats off for Pkpolitcs admin on running a brilliant show during this landmark event in the hisotry of pk …
good on ya
@nota
“There was no mushawarat among lawyers’ to call it off as he states. Yes — I am accusing him of lying. ”
MUSHawarat…maybe it was exactly that, but between somebody else
/Saqib
Well Nota is always right about AZ and PPP. He was not too bullish about the long march either.
Reading the press today, AA, by his poor judgement has sabotaged the unity of lawyers. In the end I think they’ll unite and give him one more chance, but the seeds of doubt are sown. I personally don’t doubt AA’s sincerity, but I have serious doubts about his judgement. I also regret that AA did not blast AZ during his speech. The lawyers need to start shining light up AZ’s a$$, laton kay bhoot baton say nahee mantay.
It is more than clear that AA and NS have thrown the ball in AZ’s court. But AZ will betray them again.
And frankly I think the two are real fools to have trusted AZ. Didn’t AZ say on Shahid Masood’s program that his word of mouth is as good as his f@rt?
@Kruman
Exactly….this is almost as saying that we WANT to be betrayed
Ball in AZ’s court? That is sisyphean task. You can send endless more balls to his court, but you will never have a fair game-not by intention at least…………….He issss a ssssnake.
/Saqib
BREAKING NEWS - HAMID KHAN TALKS ABOUT THE LONG MARCH:
Hamid Khan on the Long March, admits they’ve disappointed the lawyers.
But says the cause has not suffered, the leadership should not be discredited, the mistake by the leadership should be forgiven.
Says most people wanted a one-day dharna, few did not. The ones who did not want a dharna were not bad-niyat. The movement has suffered a setback, but it is not something that can’t be overcome.
“Some people made a mistake, a tactical mistake. But people did send a loud and clear message to establishment.
One’s opposing dharna said it was not feasible, this was their viewpoint.
Rehman Malik and Slaman Taseer are misleading the govt, they want to destabilise the govt.
We wanted to do a show of strength, that we did. We got all of Pakistan involved. The nation is with us on the restoration of pre-Nov 2 judiciary. People’s verdict is loud and clear.
The implementation committee did not call off the dharna. The decision to call of dharna was a bonafide mistake.”
Hamid Khan was a 100 times more articulate then AA, If AA does not come clean, he’ll be asked to step down making way for someone like Hamid Khan. However Hamid Khan has a put a good face, they’ll give AA one chance.
So far 2-0 indictment of AA
So far the only two eminent lawyers who have spoken publicly have called the decision to not hold a dharna a mistake. Both Wajeehuddin and Hamid Khan said this.
Hamid Khan even said that in his knowledge no committee decided to cancel the dharna. This contradicts AA’s statement when he tried to spread the blame.
However both were graceful, willing to give AA the benefit of doubt. Infact Hamid Khan called it a bonafide mistake.
Now we have to choose clearly peoples for us
Rehman Malik or ch. Nisaar Ali Khan
Ahmed Mukhtar or Khwaja Asif
Salman Taseer or Javed Hashmi
Husain Haqani or Ayaz mir (Counter Point)
R. Pervez Ashraf or Zafar Iqbal jagda
Babar Awan or Haneef Abbasi
Farooq Naik or Aitzaz Ahsan
Altaf Hussain or Imran Khan
And
Asif Zardari or Nawaz Sharif
—————————————————————————–
ab to doodh ka doodh aur pani ka pani ho gaya.
Well I think that AA decision was right, Dharna is not a child’s play and their main objective was to show strength and they did that. Now they can pressurize government and can do it again after some time when there is no Budget excuse and government is free to resolve this issue.
March has also boost the lawyers’ confidence who were in doubt before about the success of this March………..
@Uoverinnelig
No No NO i m afraid
not going for dharna was a big mistake
it did boasted confidence but not that of lawyers, but it was a boast for people like Rahman Malik and PPP LEADERSHIP
what ashame that the end result of such a great support from the public was not defeat of antidemocratic forces, but a smiling PPP leadership actually claiming a credit for a successful long march
not a child’s game?
restoration of judges is not a child’s gaem either so why are we insisting on that?
let it go then if its not a child’s game
thats what the true test of leadership is to stand for difficult tasks
and they failed
welldone AA good decision
AA shows a sign of legendary leader
pray for the restoration of judiciary
And also remember that a “dharna” would/should consist of lakhs of people, but anly a few thousand diciplined people. That would have send the complete message to the likes of RM/AZ etc.
/Saqib
correction:
would/should NOT consist of lakhs of people.
/Saqib
Shuaar apna hi jis ka bahana sazi tha
wo meray jhoot se khosh tha na sach pe razi tha
tamam umar ussi ke rahay- ye kia kam hai
bala se eshq haqeeqi na tha majazee tha
ye do dilon ki qurbat bari gawahi hai
so kia howa koi shahid na koi qazi tha
na tanz kar keh kai baar keh chuka tujh se
wo mere pehli muhabbat to mera maazi tha
na dost e yar, na nasih, na nama e bar, na raqeeb
bala kashan e muhabbat se kaun razi tha
ye gul shuda se jo shamain deekhai daiti hain
hunar en ankhon ka aagay sitara sazi tha
“addu ke samnay hatyar dalnay wala”
koi Faraz sa kafir nahi tha “Ghazi” tha
—————————————————————–
Thereek ka kamabal koi chura ke le gya ..aur log daikhtay reh gai
Manzoor Qadir (Lahore Bar) also spoke against Aitzaz Ahsan.. There are voices coming against Aitzaz…
Aitzaz should tell clearly..rather than using ifs and buts…..
1) Was Dahrna cancelled on the request of Mian NS… as per Haroon Rashid info. that Zardari requested Mian Sahib to convince lawyers to finish this show and Mian sahib convinced them.
2) Was there some inside committment from Aitzaz with Zardari and Mian Sahib was also part of that
3)Were those 80 peoplen out of 250,000 responsible for cancelling dharna, who were trying to go towards parliament,, theory proposed by Mr.TK…(strong smell of his personal bias against some parties in this theory…nothing more)
4) How Aitzaz can say that only 300 wanna give dharna
5) Who asked Aitzaz to give unlimited dharna, it could be only symbolic that Rawalpindi and Islambad Bar Lawyers will give Dharna (a symbolic one) for one day while Parliament session is in progress ..in my opinion all this criticizm which aitzaz is now facing could be avoided if only one day Dharna was announced to register protest while Parliament session in progress.. Few thousand lawyers from Rawalpindi, Islambad and some volunteers could also joined these lawyers….so there was no question of logistic etc . in that case…..
I am not saying that Dharna was mandatory.. but Aitzaz should come up with some reasoning and keeping in view comments from Justice Wajhi, hamid Khan and Manzoor Qadir .. it seems that Aitzaz is hiding something…
He should tell clearly…and not talk ifs and buts…logistic, chand hazar, 300, phir 20…etc. etc.
ok once again my comments are on quality control criteria… very sad…
and why they are…reason is very obvious..well done site managers.. you are doing your duty
If a majority wanted to sit their and give dharna, they could have. AA gave them the permission.
Why didn’t they?
please dont think that saari raat rotey rahey subah poocha mara koon tha but what is dharna?
@sam
well Dharna is when you pick up number of eggs (judges) and sit on them for 21 days…On 21st day, the eggs hatch and you get CUTE CHICKS out of them.
AA was of the view that these eggs will break on first day without hatching and all the good stuff (200,000 crowd) will be lost.
Some were of the view that the eggs are already close to hatch and they just have to sit on them for few more day untill new chicks (old judges) pop out.
Got it???
@jak
exactly we should all pray and thats what was on AA mind i guess i.e do nothing, go home and pray and when u wake up one fine morning judges would have been reinstated
@maktar…nooooooooooooo! didn’t quite get that! hee hee
@TK
You statement is as innocent as some of MUSH’s
do u think this really is a valid point to defend AA?
‘he gave permission’ and people didnt sit ?
this is as innocent a statement as MUSH saying that he didnt fire the judges, they simply didnt take a new oath
people were counting on AA and other lawyers and he announced that there is no dharna from the stage
then u expect people to find a new leadership there and then and sit ?
if you come up with some reasonable explanation, maybe people will understand
but this one isnt reasonable enough
this reminds me of PPP leadership coming with with the most laughable explanations to defend AZ
are you not stepping into the same shoes by defending AA at all price ?
the first step towards mending the damage would be to admit the mistake rather than giving all possible and wrong explanations for it
regards
i m sorry to mention u again TK
but i just had a look at another of your remarks , praising AA and lawyers for ‘ quick thinking’
i think this was the ’slow thinking ‘ which caused the problem
they didnt know what to do with all these people
they simply were not prepared
so there was a poem from AA and people were sent home all the way to Karachi
lol @makhtar! good description! hehehe
@ghoshi: I guess. I’m going to trust AA’s judgement. I am also dissappointed at the ending but I don’t agree with the people who are trying to term the whole project a failure becuase of a slight mis-step at the end. (and yes, if there was large sentiment in the crowd against a dharna, they would have stayed. But I appreciate the fact that they heeded the call and dispersed peacefully)
This alone tells us that the crowd, despite being large was in no mood for blood, and to force a confrontation (as some wanted) would have negated the gains made .. and they made an executive decision and .. you know.. its ramifications are still un-folding but I’m not about to term the whole project a ‘failure’ and turn into a negative ninny like Rehman Malik and Asif Zardari.
I think lawyers didn’t do spectacularly well in the logistics and expectation management department, but let us not take away from the wonderful thing that happened here. They gave a call for a peaceful long march and people came out in MILLIONS to recieve and see off the caravans.
It wasn’t about the dharna anymore! They had achieved mobilization beyond their wildest dreams! (even Aitezaz’s). The accomplishment in the moonshot wasn’t that they collected samples on the moon or did/did-not take color vs BW pictures…
IT WAS THE JOURNEY ITSELF!! (liftoff, transit, landing, takeoff, landing on earth safely)
My appeal to lawyers (if anyone reads this perchance): Stick together, and stick with AA. Do a debrief in a meeting and let all your feelings out in the council meeting and then show a united face to the nation.
Something wonderful happened in Pakistan, and all the forces of negativism are trying to belittle it. but it happened on a subconscious level.
When MLK JR was getting his a$$ chewed by the police dogs in the 60’s and blacks still couldn’t drink water from the same fountains as whites … Could anyone EVEN IMAGINE that within 50 years a Black Man would be poised to become the President of the United States? the sole superpower in the world (also thanks to the success of the peaceful civil rights movement?)
Big things are afoot! They may not happen this year, but they will happen!
Ham dekheN gay! Laazim hai keh ham bhi dekheN gay!
Aitzaz Ahsan: SOLD OUT!
Buyer’s name: A. Zardari/ Mush. Bush & co.
Immidiate broker’s name: Nawaz Sharief.
C.J’s issue as per A.A: lpc….
GAME OVER!
ZA Bhutto and Benazir must be turning in their graves listening to AZ’s speech this afternoon..and to make it worse he hopes people like Salman Taseer are in the President’s house one day!
@TK
TK on June 16th, 2008 12:56 pm
“If a majority wanted to sit their and give dharna, they could have. AA gave them the permission.
Why didn’t they?”
And then:
@TK on June 16th, 2008 2:23 pm
“My appeal to lawyers (if anyone reads this perchance): Stick together, and stick with AA. Do a debrief in a meeting and let all your feelings out in the council meeting and then show a united face to the nation. ”
Your point no. 2 did exactly (and wisely) hold the demonstrators back from doing it (holding dharna), because then the cracks would be wide open and maybe non repairable. That is why I don not accept AA´suggestion about those who want dharna can do it.
I agree that the lawyer community should have a serious talk with AA in order to control him and to air their views. There is no room for solitary approach or a NS/AZ “coloured” decision. The lawyers need to stay independent !!!!!
/Saqib
Billal467: “GAME OVER”
ibtida-e iShQ hai rotaa hai kiyaa!
Aagay Aagay dekhiyay hotaa hai kiyaa!
The ruling class in pakistan (includeing Nawaz Sharif and company) have been shaken to the core by what happened in the long march.
The overwhelming response came from the same areas which are also hatcheries for Pakistani Army.
Sh!t’s gonna go down!
MLK brought some symbolic changes (I don’t doubt his commitment), but nothing which matters seriously. The blacks are still suffering and are caught in mad circles from where they have immensely difficult to come out from, and especially jails are crowded with them.
Yes, the blacks can use the same bus, fountains, restaurants and in theory do the same as the whites, but when it comes to PRACTICAL participation in decision making then they have to proof themselves as more white than the whites themselves. If you want proof then just like at Obama and f.ex. his uttering against the Muslim Arabs and his support to the Zionists.
/Saqib
What AA was saying ‘hum jaan laina bhi jaantay hain or daina bhi’, it looks he only means bhutto family - jaan daina toh sarkoon par hota hai not in governor house. Jiyalas of PPP don’t understand that this time also they won’t be getting anything from their own wadairas from PPP, even they were not getting Rs.1,000.00 monthly announced for them in the budget - Bad show in the governor house punjab put up by mast Salman Taseer
@Bilal647 @TK
Bilal I am as disappointed with AA as you are but I will not call him ‘ SOLD OUT’ he is a sincere man
errors of judgement and poor decision making, yes
one of his fundamental mistake has been his inability to take the bitter pill of openly criticizing AZ and PPP current leadership
of all the men, he is the one who should know that AZ is NOT PPP
and he is not doing anythng wrong to his beloved party by opposing what AZ and company is doing
also, his decision on long march night was not the best one, i know people are justifying this by giving various explanations, some valid some not that valid but on balance, yes he made a wrong decision
or shall I say he failed to make a decision at the critical moment
NS is equally to be blamed for this though
Yes one should doubt the sincerity of AA, it’s the AZ who should be blamed for all this (Mush A Team now), and to some extent NS also needs to be blamed - The lawyers have done a great job
@saqib
the status quo…post WWII..has not changed much..has it?
member pakistan bar council hamid khan to aitizaz ahsan: “no mutual discussion was held before the decision”
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jun2008-daily/16-06-2008/update.htm#60
whereas in this KalTak u see aitizaz speaking like Shekh Rasheed !
I would give AA full points in bringing forth the purpose of long march and gathering such a large number of people to Islamabad, also in keeping this march peaceful - not a single loyal Paksitani has died (un say poochain jin ka koi mar jaata hai) - Hats off to the lawyers.
status quo will change not now may be tomorrow - this is how the political and peoples movement are
@sam on June 16th, 2008 2:46 pm
The way AZ has been conducting himself, ZAB must be spinning in his grave. Matter of fact, there’s a giant tornado under the earth of Garhi Khuda Bakhsh.
Why don’t we attach dynamos to the head and feet of Bhutto Marhoom and get FREE ENERGYYYYY!!!!
Bye bye loadshedding.
Dear guys, I have a question——–
Although I am a staunch advocate of reinstatement of judges and i dont doubt the sincerity of AA to his cause, but I am really surprised after listening his attitude in this programme. Imagine, media has appreciated him all the way from March,9th 2007 but if today he is being criticized, his behaviour is just like Mr. Musharraf. now he tells media that you are telling lie with the nation.
What AA will do under these circumstances, if he has the power to ban this programme?
I am very disappointed coz today I feel, AA an Pervaiz Musharraf are same, when it comes to facing criticism.
Regards
The bearded cat is out of the bag.
JI is cotemplating Civil Disobedience
Now, go on, tell me they didn’t want to make a nasty incident during the long march as a pretext for such douche-baggery.
@mbokhari…lol! good idea!
@drmoshan:
I agree he was a bit short, but imagine the stress he is under. Now, I don’t agree with you that what he was facing in this particular interview was ‘criticism’. I think he was facing was utter stupidity! Javed Choudhary was trying be ‘hard hitting’ and but ended up sounding like a 10 year old retarded kid who’s more concerned about his red-balloon and obvlivious to the bigger picture… having nearly gotten run over by a speeding bus.
Also, media is not supposed to take side. It was UNPROFESSIONAL of Jeved Choudhary to engage in guilt trips.. what the media is doing is not any favors to the nation, they are the 4th estate and have an obligation to be unbiased, objective and impartial. Leave ti to melodramatic nitwits like Javed Ch. to openly side with or against the lawyers.
What they are doing is the right thing to do. The objective thing to do. Stop acting like you’re doing anyone any favors.
@mbokahri: hey great idea! this should rememdy the old complaint by a PPP minister from Sindh that the punjabis are taking all the bijli out of the water.. and that is why the crops in sindh are failing …hahahaha (sorry no reference for this anecdote)
Where does IK stand on “Dharna”???? I haven’t seen a statement from him since the Long March…..
Statements by Hamid Khan, Justice Wajihudin, Manzoor Qadir (president Lahore district bar association) et. al. and absence of Kurd from the picture…shows a clear rift within the lawyers movement…it is testing time…let’s see how they cope with it…….I think there will be a split b/w the moderates and hawks very soon…..with hawks making a new political party……
I m fully agreed with AA decision………….the message has been communicated in a good way
@TK:
complaint by a PPP minister from Sindh that the punjabis are taking all the bijli out of the water.. and that is why the crops in sindh are failing
HAHA….reminded me of this…
————————————
Water is the source of all life. Seven-tenths of this earth’s surface is water. Why, do you realize that seventy percent of you is water?
Ripper: Mandrake?
Mandrake: Yes, Jack?
Ripper: Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?
Mandrake: Well, I can’t say I have.
Ripper: Vodka, that’s what they drink, isn’t it? Never water?
Mandrake: Well, I-I believe that’s what they drink, Jack, yes.
Ripper: On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.
Mandrake: Oh, eh, yes. I, uhm, can’t quite see what you’re getting at, Jack.
Ripper: Water, that’s what I’m getting at, water. Mandrake, water is the source of all life. Seven-tenths of this earth’s surface is water. Why, do you realize that seventy percent of you is water?
Mandrake: Uh, uh, Good Lord!
Ripper: And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.
Mandrake: Yes. (he begins to chuckle nervously)
Ripper: Are you beginning to understand?
Mandrake: Yes. (more laughter)
Ripper: Mandrake. Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol?
Mandrake: Well, it did occur to me, Jack, yes.
Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation. Fluoridation of water?
Mandrake: Uh? Yes, I-I have heard of that, Jack, yes. Yes.
Ripper: Well, do you know what it is?
Mandrake: No, no I don’t know what it is, no.
Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?
unity in lawyers movement is the call of the day
i still wont mention AA’s name with likes of Sheikh Rashed for God sake
the man made a mistake, which to him was a right decision but i have no doubt in his sincerity
he should change his attitude towards PPP Zardari group though
thast another error of judgement on his behalf
Also why nobody is mentioning NS for such a disappointing end to the long march
didnt he say in betwwen lines that dharna was not a good idea?
@ goshi ! i understand ur point but not even a kid would make such kind of stupid mistake the one which he did. He is a sencere person but he is more loyal to PPP as compared to C.J thats y he decided to end that wonderful rally in few mins.
AA is a sincere person. He is quite clear in his stance that he doesn’t want to be an anti state which I think is very very good reply.
Dear TK
Thank you for your kind attention and response. your comments are always to the point and sometime they are very thought-provoking.
As far as my political thoughts are concerned, I am pro-PMLN.
I have been observing the pakistani media for the last one year with impartial attitude.
Few months back, coverage of Altaf Hussain got a boost on Geo and I was the most angry person. why??? coz i dont like his speech style and when ever he used to deliver some speech, geo used to start telecasting his speech mostly as a breaking news. BUT——–frankly speaking now a days Nawaz Sharif is being given the same coverage. although i am happy about it, but It makes me feel that something wrong going on somewhere. As a reference, you can observe that at the last day of Long March, many leaders delivered the speeches, but Geo has telecasted the speech of Nawaz Sharif many times.
Sorry for long mail
Waiting for response–
Regards
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