It is true .Pakistan was the base camp of all the terrorist activities headed by ISI .USA used them and USSR destroyed before the expectations of USA .Then all the Pro ISI and so called islamic parties become against USA. The ISI stretigy got failed.

the faild plan of ISI

This has become a fashion to blame Pakistan Army domestically and globally. It has been provided by us in Pakistan. Karzai is non-sense. Afghanistan is 10 times smaller in everything than Pakistan. USA & EU understand that very well. We should not listen to Karzai who is “Big Ehsan-framosh”, after living in Pakistan lavishly what he is giving back is pathetic. He should never be welcomed in Pakistan as he is less than Mayor of Kabul, who speaks language taught by Pakistan enemies to him. When Pakistani Politicians talk against Pakistan Army, that also provides ammunition to Karzai & enemies. Pakistan is the only country whre; even politicians with no seat are allowed to talk against Army. When we will devlop as a nation?

You know it could be Zaradi and not ISI. Now all focus has shifted to terrorism and judges issue has gone in the background.

I AGREE WITH THIS. ISI CAN DO ANYTHING ANYWHERE.

Let’s stop criticizing our armed forces for the time being because we have very very tough time ahead. Mush’s agenda was not army’s agenda, and most of them were unhappy what he was doing to the nation. A low ranking officer and his platoon are the ones who will fight not the journals. There is no logic to critize the whole institution which will have negative affect on their morale…

Karzai is an idiot who has no future in Afghanistan after he resigns!

Man, karzai is the mayor of kabul, not the president of Afghanistan. This idiot cant set things right in his own country, and the easiest thing to do is to blame pakistan for everything.

Also, US is behind all these statements from karzai. Just pressure tactics really. Right now, one statement from pakistan that if this rhetoric from Karzai and US does nor stop, pakistan will have to rethink its alliance with the US against war on terror should be enough. The US and afghanistan know that without pak help, the war on terror, and afghanistan, is as good as as lost.

Karzi used to reside in quetta and most of his family members still have roots over there. But such kind of baseless allegation is nothing new from his mouth. Karzai has a cabinet which has high concentration of Northern alleince war lords which is anti-pakistan and pro-indians not only that they are mostly persians and tajiks who dont even like Pashtun’s. The best thing for Pakistan at this momment is to make it self more important to them so that they stop bashing such kind of allegations. It can be done a soft way or a harsh way. But as we all know which way should be selected right now. As Afghanistan use Pakistan routes as dry port then why not to stop all the wheat, Oil, food items etc not only to Afghanistan but also to all those forces who malign pakistan every time. If Pakistan do this for just a month everyone will see the change as there is no easy route for Afghanistan to get goods from world. As iran already refused to provide its route bcuz of US-Iran relationship.
Once this is done and once he KArzai, AFghan gov get the heat of shortage in everything then they will talk they way we want them to talk and they will do thing we want them to do. As india or any other country cannot provide them these things(food items/oil/petrol etc ) by any means as there is no road connecting directly to afghanistan.
Wsalam.

@revo

aik statement…sala aik statement nahin day sakta…sala aik machar..aik jurnail..sala!!

@chargotey

Your suggestion about blocking the supplies is quite good to block the supplies and I had the same in my mind but Pakistan gets money for the logestics. So do you think our greedy leaders and jurnails will forget about the money for the time being?

But if we look to the future, blocking the supplies will be good for India and bad for us. It will make a reason for the future Afghani Govt to choose Chahbahar port in Iran instead of Karachi or Gawadar. Chahbhar is being heavily invested by Indians and its quite close to Gawadar. I guess they want to sideline Pakistan and use Iran-Afghanistan route for trading to Centeral Asia.

So the moment we block the supplies even to Afghanistan, that will be most happiest day for the Indian Govt.

@kafka

The statement must come from the civilian leadership, the foreign office, followed by a statement from the army. All this hoohaa about democracy means that the khussi gilani must come up with a statement like this. The army doesnt even need to say anything, remember, theoretically, the arnmy is under the civilian govt. SO it is the govt that needs to grow a sack.

@revo

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I4BiE-9piEY

Everytime that I look in the mirror
All these lines on my face gettin clearer
The past is gone
It went by like dust to dawn
Isnt that the way
Everybodys got their dues in life to pay

Half my life is in books written pages
Live and learn from fools and from sages
You know its true
All the things come back to you

Sing with me, sing for the years
Sing for the laughter, sing for the tears
Sing with me, if its just for today
Maybe tomorrow the good lord will take you away
(x2)

Dream on, dream on
Dream yourself a dream come true
Dream on, dream on
Dream until your dream come true
Dream on, dream on, dream on…

@kafka

hahah……dream on dream on. Nothing wrong with dreaming, thats what drives me. Can’t watch the video coz im at work.

But im telling you, nothing in Pakistan will change unless younger people like us, the unspoilt kind, start getting more active in politics.

Just like Iraq war is a war for oil, the Afghanistan war is a war for drugs. USA had decided to invade Afghanistan through Tajikistan even before 9/11, as has been revealed by Niaz A. Naik, mainly because Taliban had banned poppy cultivation.

Drug money is considered to be a major source of private income for CIA and its bigwigs. Karzai is a low level drug lord who is nothing but a puppet of USA. Its a travesty to call him president of Afghanistan when his authority does not extend much beyond kabul.

His utterings should be seen in their true perspective as these are nothing but pressure tactics at the behest of USA. The sad thing is that our rulers have been pretty spineless otherwise someone like Karzai could not dare say such things.

To destablize any nation’s morale and integrity, its paramount to create hatred and discontent for their armed forces within the public’s mind.
Thats what has been dont so successfully by all enemies of Pakistan, no wonder we all sit here in our cozy sofas and spit venom abt soldiers and officers serving on difficult terrains away from their families for months.

If anyone is to be blamed, its the generals who hatch up these idiotic plans and then call up the army personnel to fullfill their plans.

None of us has more insight into whats being thought in the Army’s ranks abt the current discontent in our public’s mind than those journalists who actually cover stories abt this frustration among Army circles.
Recently after i gave my views on a BBC blog on the same topic,
i was contacted by a BBC columonist who had been working on a story on this topic and her views were staggering. As she revealed that most of the junior ranked jawans and officers are sick and tired of this war on terror but are clinging on as they dont see any other choice. They cant leave their jobs out of a sudden and then do what ??
Do policemen leave jobs when they are asked to baton charge and manhandle innocent women and upright lawyers.
So why do we all expect the army personnel to do the same.

I hate the Gernals of this ARmy who have created with their nefarious designs hatred for the whole army….
But we are people who have access to info and knowledge and can read abt such foregin media stories abt how Pakistan army common soldier feels. We should read them before spitting ludicrous comments abt the whole army.

AS i see it, the day is not far when the NATO led troops would do a misadventure against the tribal areas and the role of Our Army would inshALLAH produce patriotic vibes for them again.
GOD save this ARMY.

As much I would like to agree with you Usman I cannot say more than that God save this Pakistan. I dont know about you but I grew up in the midst of the myth of Pakistani Amred Forced being the best in world. As a kid I rarely used my pocket money to buy anything but stickers for a scrap-book by the name “Action Force”. It depicted the might and passion of Pakistani forces. In later parts of my teen years I remember being exhilirated by TV shows like Sunehry Din and Alpha Bravo Charlie, military sponsored ventures of Shoaib Mansoor. I have family members in amred services. One after another, I have memories of idealiizing Pakistan Armed Forces.

Today, I am 23 year old, have an undergradute degree and to pacify my “open-minded and enlightened” firends I reiterate my education in US. Also today, I will confine to pray only for Paksitan becuase it has “dawned” to me that not only Army is a sperate entity within Pakistan it has interests of its own. However, these interestes have always collided head-on with incentives to Pakistan and its people. The informational session of my life took me 20 years to relaise it but now I am more confrotable with knowing the facts and believeing the truth. The character and performance of this “mighty” force has plunged its reputation to the levels no local or foreign enemy could have achieved.

So much to complain about brutality and failiure to comprehend the failed policies of US Army by there soldiers in Iaq and Afghanistan. Why not point a figure at our “Jawans” for taking up arms against there own people both in the field and behind the eerie walls of torture cells? I might have an answer for this riddle: it violates the dicipline of a professional organization to defy the orders form superiors or as they like to say in Pak Army messes, it is not an OLQ (officer like quality). Well, if were not the prisoners of own devices namely career, dicipline and pride world would have been a cradle of peace. So shall we forget about the atrocious armies of great generals who indvidually ransacked the nations and left never-healing wounds? Even in this not-so-perfect world we do not forget the tyrant and his subordinates, Napolean and his army they say burnt Egpt. Genghiz khan and his barbarians looted Baghdad; Hitler and Nazis massacred Jews. I hope you see my point here, the Generals are running the show but ther best bet is the Jokey who will win then the race. The common soldier is a human being after all, shackled with prefessiona patriotism, who is accountable for he/she has a skin like you and me. He/she claims to feel the pain of a bullet and demands respect.

US and Pakistani soldiers are not so different in the aspects of their actions and public view about them. I think there are is media interviews of US soldiers than it if of Pakistani, blistering there government and mourning the loss of Iraqis and Afghans. None of which treat the wounds of those whose houses were broked in, men killed, picked and tortured and families left in eternal turmoil. We do not cut much slack to US Army in our home countries despite the expression of remorse by some of their own men why sould we do it for Pakistani soldiers. Infact, if one would call it one, our Jawans are committing a more serious crime of inflicting injustice on their own people. The people who look like them, act like them in more ways one can count and maybe have family ties, it just gets absurd as much as you think of it.

If there is no injustice being done to people of Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces or if it is necessary to inflictict pain to innocent in order to eliminate the “evil” then Pakistan Jawans are on right track, may Allah bless them all. On the other hand, if US raids in Iraq and Afghanistan are living example of historical barbarianism then they ahve found their match in form of Pakistani Army then may Allah damn them with similar fate.

You never know Karzai may be right that Pakistan Intelligence agencies behind turmoil in Afghanistan. IF THAT IS SO then who is and who was heading Pakistan Army intelligence agencies and government of Pakistan 8-9 years? Nobody except Musharraf. In other words he is blaming Musharraf and so every Pakistani is blaming him. Why doesn’t he say so openly to Musharraf and why doesn’t he complain the same to USA who are his “mai-baap”?

You see this discussion was never about who committed how many wrongs, for that would be a long discussion… But lemme share some thoughts on that front then,….as Most of those who like bashing ARMy for every ill n dirt of this land that ever was, should think hard abt this.

All our so called “elected representatives” carrying the wishes and aspirations of our poor people, always hide behind the repeated Army interventions as the cause of their own failings…
Now a days nobody is standing in their way to give our people some respite But we all know whats happening.

Leave alone the governance issues, even when it came to making decisions abt our future strategy on war on terror, the drawing on the wall is the same.
When the Cheif of Army staff was giving the PM and cabinet a presentation and it was the civilian establishment that had the power to make decisions, we all know they gave the Army a go ahead to launch another operation.

I really hope the ARMy stays away from politics so the real faces of our politicians can be seen once in for all.

As for your assessment abt the level of damage committed on our society by the armed forces, well like i said initially my point was never abt who did more. Bcos along with our “committed” politicians, self serving bureacreats, Can you name any other govt apparatus which heads the list of being worth mentioning here as honest and efficient…

Do our businessmen, policemen, journalists, lawyers, doctors, engineers, investors do no harm to our country.

The distinction of harm that’s in your mind needs clarity my friend….

If for you bombing over a village of miscreants that causes deaths is big thing… the level of frustration and hopelessness that cripples our society today due to corruption and nepotism from the other sections of society kills people too… its even worse i feel… slow and steady slaying of hope, promises and aspirations…

So there you have it…
The army killing people who had made a state within a state…
and our civilian apparatus killing people coz of their greed and lust.
who’s worse, only time will tell.

and the main thing for me is,
Keeping aside the ills and deeds of all sections of our society,
military or civilian..
the one institution whose heart and soul affects the integrity of this nation and whose sins if washed away by acts of defiance against all enemies circling us from all sides, are the armed forces.

In short,
I dont see any other section of society having this much integral role in defining our nationalistic identity as much as the Army. Its for this reason, i remain hopeful and my lips keep praying abt the Army regaining its lost glory and esteem in the eyes of this nation. PEACE

I don’t see any reason for Pakistani intelligence agencies/ Army to back terrorists. The statement from karzai shows his failure to control law and order in Afghanistan. Its easy to blame others and hard to accept the responsibility.

Well done ,Karzai. Our Third World and third rated Army is really the most corrupt and bogus institution anywhere in the world. How many times this Army has raped the Constitution of Pakistan? Do we care to remember? This entire burden on our conscience and our Finances should be relieved by disbanding this entire Mafia.

In the name of ‘Watan’ and ‘Pak Afwaj” they have fooled us for a long long time. Why no General stands up and says ISI is a corrupt and unethical organization? Perhaps,Because they are all buddies , they help each other. ISI had been involved in rigging elections, supporting fake referendums, removing elected representitives of the people. These are all grave crimes. No punishment if you rape an entire nation?

This is a bogus Army. If you look at how they treat thier soldiers and how they train them, you should be appalled. In a Toyota Pick-up they pack up all the ‘Jawans’ , roaming around sitting ducks for the Taliban Rocket launchers. No defense. Shaheed? You killed them. Their uniforms belong to the World War I era. Steel helmets with grass stuck in their ears. This is shameful. They have prepared this fodder for the guns of thier enemies. These F.A pass generals , are incharge of your destiny.
we have to get rid of this garbage to be a nation with any values. This is what is destroying us as a nation.

So for those of us who dont see a reason for ISI or Army to back miscreants we should try to investigate the reasons they supported armed struggle in Kashmir, bombings in India, creation of Taliban and serioes of kidnappings and harrasments in Pakistan. Which one of these have payed off positively so far? Have you been feeling more secured lately becuase we spent so much money effort in these activities?

The possible involvment of Pakistan cannot be dismissed since it destabalize both Afganistan and our arch rival India. I also believe India could have been involved in some recent violent in Pakistan. Blowing up the Indian embassy sends message to India and Karzai who has been riding a high horse.

Words fail to describe how henious is the face of these law enforcmenet agencies. It is not only the problem of Pakistan, its a worldwide phenomenon based on national interests. National interests those dont benefit the nations, those are decided by few people and in some cases by one! Unfortunately, it gets worst in case of Pakistan becuase there is no hope for justice if you have been mistreated by any of these agencies.

I am going all over the place in my writing becuase I am so pissed at this whole bull shit we are running in Pakistan. Under the name of Islam, Kashmir and Nuclear Power, we have sacrificed everything and gained nothing. People who have led us in these campaigns have made a fool outof the whole nation, time after time. It might sound irrational but I am willing to castarate the next army man I come across.

I think some of Us are going round in circles with all these involvement with Taleban theories….

Firstly, if India never ceases to be hostile with us, supports terrorism activities within our mainland, arms seperatist elements in Baluchistan, plans and executes various bombings all over our country, aides people like MQM quaid Altaf bhai and Sardars like Bugti who have never accepted Pakistan as their own…. WHAT SHOULD WE Do..

Sit on our sorry arses and see the whole show till it culminates in us being more miserable than what we are rite now..

On the other hand, You all loathe the fact that the army might be still in cooperation with taleban and other afghan elements just to destablise the northern afghan establishement loyal to the slippery indians.
You dont approve of that….But then when the same taleban fighters hideouts are bombed by the army who were hiding in villages among common civilians and innocent people get killed, you are outraged again.

I think its abt time you see where you are going….
there has got to be one position.

Either you accept the fact that the taleban are a bigger evil and therefore any operation against them is logical and justified, then your views above as to how people have been killed there, dont hold any logic.

BUT If you feel, the taleban and our local pashtuns should not have been dealth with operations, then sit tight, coz you are up for a surprise of your life…. as it is becoming clearly eveident that a large section of the miltary establishment still harbours soft corner for taleban and sees them as the important knight in this game of chess in which the indians and iranians and the afghans are all squabbling for supremacy.

I say, good for us….
what else we’ve left as a nation, other than paying our enemy in the same coin.
I’ll always remember this ” Only good Hindu is a dead Hindu”..

So down with indians on this afghan issue.
If the ISI is involved, so be it.
WE need to show them who is the master here.

Whether you people want to stay confused or emotional is another thing,
but atleats i’m clear that the taleban ISI nexus is good for Pakistan as a deterrent agains the nefarious indian designs.

Way to GO ISI !!

and for the gentlman lamenting the lack of quality and wisdom among armed forces,
probably you didnt hear how the German Chief of Staff visiting ISI HQ gave the Cheif a brick from the GERMAN WALL.
The engraving on the brick read ” TO THOSE WHO HIT THE FIRST STRIKE”.

Thats what, the IS has been capable of.
its designs and strategies shaped world order and resulted in the fall of communism. The red army monster that was abt to swallow us was defeated by our very own hands, but we keep cribbling about and take heed to what the foreign media says abt our national institutions.
ISI is worth getting proud of as the defender of our idelogical borders.

Kuldip Nayar’s piece from today’s Dawn:
The threat is real
…Spelling out retaliation, the National Security Adviser has mentioned two things: one, India will not let the attack go unpunished and, two, “the ISI needs to be destroyed. We have made this point whenever we have had a chance through interlocutors across the world.” Significant are the words: “There might have been some tactical restraint for some time; obviously that restraint is no longer present.”….

…An Indian newspaper asked Ahmed Rashid, an authoritative Pakistani voice on the Taliban, whether the ISI was involved in the attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul. His reply was: “Pakistan’s problem, for certain, had never been Afghanistan as long as the Taliban were in power. The thing that worries the military establishment here [in Pakistan] is its presumed enemy on the east ‘India’. Pakistani intelligence can never allow a hostile and India-friendly country neighbouring its west.”

In his latest book, Descent into Chaos, Rashid has minced no words in exposing the role of Pakistan and that of the ISI in Afghanistan. He is open about the support extended by the ISI to cross-border terrorist attacks launched from territory under Pakistan’s control. In its bid to limit and eliminate what it regarded as India’s growing influence in its backyard, Rashid says, the ISI systematically helped the Taliban by letting it establish itself on the Pakistan side of the border, especially in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (Fata)….

Our Corrupt Army’s Chief Mafia boy having good time with his Mafia boss.
Who is footing the bill for this shameful display of corruption?
Why this Kiyani does not understand that he is supporting a criminal,a dictator, an usurper of the Constitution ,a crime that carries death penalty?
Why these Generals are so dumb?

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jul2008-daily/20-07-2008/main4.htm

the news item -fifth- on the page, about Musharraf and Kiyani playing Polo in Muree.

**********************************WANTED***************************************

COUNTRY OF PAKISTAN IS IN IMMEDIATE NEED OF FEW “NATIONALISTS” WHO CAN SHOW THAT :

-PAKISTAN IS THEIR COUNTRY IN ANY SITUATION OF LIFE

-KNOW WHEN TO SHUT THEIR MOUTH WHEN IT COMES TO NATIONAL SECRETES

-KNOW HOW TO USE THE NATIONAL RESOURCES IN A MANNER WHICH IS BENEFICIAL FOR THE NATION NOT TO THEIR OWN PERSON

-KNOW NOT TO PLAY BLAME GAME “HE DID IT” JUST FIX IT AND MAKE THE PUBLIC HAPPY

People PLEASE stop talking about your own country’s secret agency in public. even if ISI was involved, so be it BUT we should not accept that. We should learn from Indian’s. Always blame other party before anybody speaks out.

I believe Karzai SOB did it himself so he can blame Pakistan.

karzai cant even walk outside of kabul. i heard american army killed his jigree friends somewhere near nuristan , as part of their casual massacring of civilians; the dummy couldnt even deliver a single word.

ISI is a criminal organization.
If you really love your country and have an ounce of honesty left in you,you better learn to face the truth.

ISI a rogue Agency. Nobody has control over it. Our elected representatives are hostage to this Government within the Government.

Patriotism does not mean being blind to the Mafia that exists in your country. Wake up before it is too late.

How many times this ‘Pak Fauj’ has raped the Constitution of Pakistan?
It does not matter to you? This was done with the full backings of the ISI.
How many Q-Leagues has been created by this quasi-government that exists in your country? Nothing matters?
Learn to face the reality. You can not fool people with flag waving anymore. All the sufferings and deprivations of this country are a direct result of our Pak Fauj and ISI is an active partner in the crimes committed.

Karzai is doing you a favour. You can not face the truth. He is showing you the mirror.

ISPR condemns Karzai’s statements. Foreign office spokesman condemns Karzai. You are all rapists of this country and its constitution. My middle finger for both of you, Big Jhootay’.

Shame on us for being so naive and gullible .

it is a very intresting debate and i would like to say something i totally agree with chargotey’s views that we should put pressure on Afghanistan in our way if they talk non-sense. I am from NWFP and i know how much ppl are angry about that stupid karzai’s remarks. Pakistan goveronment have to take action to stop them from accusing pakistan otherwise they will carry on but i know this very well that pakistan goveronment wont take any practical action against karzai’s remarks cos they know their father USA is behind them. i dnt understand one thing why pakistan goveronment is so scared of USA why? it is our duty to save our country not serve the interest of USA bombing our own ppl. please for Allah’s sake dnt be scared of USA and stop bombing our own ppl please and then u will see how these Americans behave to us
Thanks