The daughter of late SSG commando, Maj-Gen (retd) Amir Faisal Alavi, who is in the US, has sent a letter on her memories of her father. She writes: “I vaguely remember asking my dad when I was five, how old was your dad when he passed away, papa? I remember my dad’s surprised look and laughingly, he said, 61, why?, Ooo, I said, You have a long way to go. I was wrong, so wrong.You went much earlier, papa.
“Born a British national in Kenya, Alavi came to study at Abbottabad Public School, but later his love and zeal for the military prompted him to renounce his British nationality. He wrote to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, asking him to grant him Pakistani nationality so he could join the Army and that is exactly what happened, he got his wish. “My earliest memories are of my dad splendid in his uniform, no nonsense formidable soldier attitude and at the same time he was an easygoing person, very humble, compassionate, but very fearless. He just loved flirting with danger, it was almost as if he thrived on it. He had this amazing energy around him that’s hard to describe, just the word military would bring a sudden change in his behaviour, it would be hard to control his enthusiasm, the energy radiating from him, he drained life source from it.
“He had an amazing unending compassion for people and a heart so large I doubt it ever had walls. All you had to do was ask him and he would give it to you. He told me once, always look after the people below you because that is really what shows what kind of a person you are. He taught me not to judge people based on wealth, caste, their status, colour but judge them on their hearts. His magnanimity astounded me even at people who had hurt him badly. I never understood how he forgave people but he always said to me ‘Leave it to God’. “I still remember his enthusiasm while going on for a Wana operation and me as always complaining, ‘dad you are a general, honestly how many generals themselves go out in an operation?’ He said, ‘You fight from the top, the bottom will follow the top, and if I lead, my soldiers will follow.’
“I remember him putting a hand in his uniform and taking out a small medallion with Sura Yasin on it, saying what’s this?, while me and my sister continued to attach small medallions or Suras and prayers to his uniform. He would always say, ‘I am a soldier, I have no family. And that is what always scared me, my sister and mom to death.’ I remember whenever I was in distress or panic, he would gently admonish me, saying ‘Be brave, You are Faisal Alavi’s daughter, remember who you are,’ but I can be distressed now can’t I, papa, you are there no more, who do I turn to now? “I could write a whole book on my father but a part of me wants to keep those memories to myself because that’s all I have left of him. He is no more; all I have are his memories with me.
“I think it was unfair of fate to give me so little time with you, papa. You were my best friend, my saviour, my superman more than you were my dad and now you left me alone. Every time, I pick up my cell, my fingers automatically dial your number only to realise there is no papa anymore at the other end. “I think the way you went away was cruel, and the people who did it were cowards but knowing you, I can say that is certainly the way you would have wanted to go. I know your only regret is you did not have a weapon to shoot one or two, but papa, if you had one, those cowards would never have come near you. “I don’t think I ever told you this dad, even though it’s a bit late now, I just want you to know how very proud I am to be your daughter, papa. I was truly blessed to have a great soldier like you as a dad. I won’t cry I promise, because I am your daughter but how can I not be sad knowing I won’t hear you, meet you or hug you ever again. I will really miss you, papa, I did not only lose my father, I lost my best friend, my saviour, my superman.
“I promise you, papa I will fulfil every dream of yours. I will be strong, just don’t be mad at me for this moment of weakness, I lost you, let me have a moment of weakness, but I won’t go weak ever papa. I will take care of everything. I just want you to rest in peace papa, you worked a lot its time for you to rest. Amen.”
I LOVE YOU, PAPA
MEHVISH ZAHRA ALAVI
All I can do is salute Maj-Gen (retd) Amir Faisal Alavi.
May Allah (swt) forgive his sins, grant him highest ranks in Jannah and give patience to his family – ameen.
I can realize your emotions but this is something not in control. May Allah give you sisters sabar and the departed soul rest in peace. Ameen
sorry to hear about your loss, i hope you are able to cope with it. As they say, “death and taxes are the only certainty,” take it in stride.
Gen. Alavi’s conduct has been controversial, but decency demands it to respect the departed and the bereaved.
you have my sympathies.
Many things are not fair in life, death of a parent is certainly one.
May Allah give patience to your family and have mercy on his soul. Ameen.
Mehvish,
your writting is very touche,May your dear Fater soul live in peace,thats what all we can say.
There isn,t an alternate to Parents.So we can feel what you said.
May God Help you too to over come these hard times.
We should hang our head in shame for allowing ISI/Taliban to kill this man.
May Allah Give him janat and sabar to all of you. Ameen
When our Generals will not go to Wana like Alvi, we will lose our country……!
Condolances. I hope the religious bigots who termed your father ‘Traitor in our midst’ and tormented you as you tried to defend your dead father’s honour will have the moral courage to ask for forgiveness. (somehow I doubt it though. Beardo’s are cowards to the max)
O.T.: Please become part of the movement to reform our Pakistani Military Academies, ie; Chain of command starts at the elected Chief Executive (PM).
General Alvi seems to be a good person and profssional solidier. My deep condolances.
I hope all those who wrote a lot of garbage about Gen. Alvi must be feeling ashamed of themselves.
@texasboy
How much do you know of the military to tell me my fathers conduct was controversial ? When you nothing donot speak of anything . My father maynot be a saint . i donot claim that but my father was very loyal to his country and the nation . There are not many like him . He wasnt a coward not a munafiq he said what he thought . We have been raised to speak the truth even if it causes us harm .We donot fear anything but GOd .We are the descendants of Syedna Ali , we dont get intimidated.
ANd who told you that he didnot want to fight in Wana. Ignorance is a bliss.No one showed my father mercy on another topic in this forum i donot expect that but i wont let anyone malign my father or his name . I donot need your sympathies. Thank you .
“The more widely a notion is held, the more likely it is to be completely absurd rather than based on anything of substance”.
(W. Somerset Maugham – The Summing Up)
May God bless his soul and give you patience to bear this loss.
Dear sister,
May Allah forgive all of us and guide us to the Straight Path(Sirat al Mustaqeem)!
Allah Subhanah has told us to remind for the reminder benefits and also at another place to remind for the reminder benefits the believing (men and women)
Your being a decendent of my great leader Syedina Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) may give you a notion that you are very brave but it may not be enough to help you or me to benefit on the day of judgement.
Pl do not say, ” It was unfair of fate…” for it is a big thing to say. We should be careful for what we say and do even in the time of extreme bereavement; even when we claim to be emotional and not meaning something literally….Remember who wrote the fate. Allah! He is the most Fair. He does what HE Subhanah wishes! Everyone will be answerable to Him and He will be answerable to none! We surrender to Him, for it will only benefit us. He does not need us, we need Him. May Allah forgive you and me and all of us and guide us to His Path.
Hope this comment is taken positively and it becomes a point to be benefited rather than anything else…
Are we paying tribute to same General Alvi who handed a secret letter to a bristih journalist and as a result ISI and Pakistan were maligned?
Raja Irfan Ullah
Dear Friend
I remember seeing a pack of Hyena’s ambush and take down a lone Lion on the National Geographic Channel, and marveled at its grace as it fought to its last. I never thought they could do it to you my friend, I did not believe they could ever take you head on, and they did not dare. They took you unaware, unarmed, and without warning.
They took your life, but they could not take away your self respect and dignity. Even in death you mocked them with your smile. I will always remember that smile my brother, I will always remember the fun and joy that accompanied you. I WILL NEVER FORGET YOU.
I bid you Good bye my Shaheed, with a prayer that you may always be remembered for all that you did for a very grateful nation. May Allah All mighty bless your Soul.
ADIOS………….AMIGO! (He always touched his imaginary Mexican hat every time I called him that)
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD.http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=40707167454&ref=ts
@ MR lofty reign your words . The same journalist has access to all the miltary institutes if you are not aware of it yet. Her book is yet to be published wait and watch what else military gave her. My dads signature is not at the end of that letter . There is no mention in the letter of taliban or isi..Hypothetically speaking , Isi is not god neither are the people living in it ok . If some one did wrong they did it.If our nation was so goody goody we wont be where we are today
@A _muslim my mention to my heritage didnot mean im safe from Gods wrath i said im not scared of any person or any threat except God. YOu are taking it in the wrong sense. Religion is not politics it should remain separate . I do not blame God . Its unfair of fate is figure of speech. PLease stop bringing religion into every comment. We all are not held accountable for the other persons deeds perhaps if all muslims pay attention to their own deeds rather than what the person next to them is doing Islam wont be thought as a terrorist religion today.
@ r lofty you are bent on maligning my father i read your other comments too . I wonder why? You have never met him thats what i am sure of 100 percent .What are you trying to do.? Provoke me to give some statement ?
Its amusing how people get easily played evrytime the drama if an international conspiracy ….. why dont you all look at yourselves first
My name is Mehvish Zahra Alavi whats your name Mr lofty?
@ muslim you didnot read my comments on the oter topic i wrote i donot need sympathies i donot need condolences i await justice , not just any justice i await GODs justice bcoz HE is the most perfect , the most fair . He knows evrything ANd HE doesnt make mistakes . Thats all i await for . It may take a while it may take a life time but that is now what i live for .
Sorry! But I simply want to know how this guy died?
manidr, please take the fight to the ISI/taliban gang and expose their dirty crimes against Pakistan.
As a Pakhtun, I can only have respect for your father who tried to eliminate ISI/Arab agents from my land.
pakistani ppl are very sentimental , all they need is a good acting like Zardari did with one slogan “PAKISTAN KAPHAY” and we have a big heart to “forgive and forget”. I am not here to judge anyone but being a daughter to some one and sending a letter for your own dad is a different thing. i am father of young child and a son of a mother too but national security and country comes first.THis guy’s handed over a letter to a journilist and also he was MI6 agent
Its expected from a daughter to write good things about her father–we should believe you as we believe in other story.
Your father was a man of conviction & dedication–His love for jawans is very common in Pak Army commanding officers.
I must say he was a good soul.
I personally apologize for any misunderstanding that lead to accuse him as traitor.
Hopefully at some point u be able to explain how Sunday Times got access to a top secret Army confidential letter.
May God bless his soul & rest in peace.
mr sabhe66 come and face me in person and tel me he was mi66 agent. What was top secret in the letter?. Who are you to judge my father ?national security? what security are you talking about? why are you guys worried about how someone got a letter why dont you see why was some one so scared of him they shot him dead.
I dont know how they got that letter the same way benazir wrote to a british journalist before her death . I dont think anyone of you in Pakistan is so bold and brave enough to question your govt and army .Are you? Then go and ask them . Why do you keep asking me who killed him go and ask them who control the nation
@admin I want you to please remove my letter from here . I have been to dozens of sites and forums. THey have more comments than here but they certainly are a much more educated and emanicpated lot. I donot wish to have my letter shown here. Please remove it. Thank you
Let me set the record straight for the last time . MY father was a british national but he was kenyan born and brought up in kenya.Kenya was a british colony .MY grandparents had migrated from Pakistan to Kenya. He came at the age of 12 to abbotabad public school to study and he remained here.He has absloutely no affiliation with britain. THe same way my sister was born in usa while my father was stationed here. IS she a us spy now?
I dont say things about my father because he was my father . No , we were raised to speak the truth if he was wrong i would be the first to say. He never favoured us because we were his children and similarly we dont favor anyone because we are related.
None of you know my father , no one has met him. Without knowing some one dont make assumptions . I told you before go and ask a common soldier about him . DOnt sit and pass judgements as if you are a prophet recieving commandants from above .
YOu know i said before my father is my pride me sabee66 dont take an aim at my pride. I wont let anyone even touch it .
DOnt give me crap you are a father. Go and raise your child first . How good of a person you are will be reflected in your child. My silence is not my weakness its a promise to someone .I wont break my promise but i wont let any of you sling mud at my father. I am not dead yet.
@jazoo
The other story stated my dad was killed by the military . Is that what you believe . Then go file a case in court against the army ince you all are so concerned about your nation. Go and stop wrong .dont hide behind your computer screens and arite what comes to your mind. Get up and do something.
@manidr
The other story that your father handed over a confidential letter to British Journalist stating the names of few Generals.
When I read ur article about ur father he sounds like a man of principle & conviction & upright character–its hard to conceive he could have done such a lowly act.
People here are not responsible for killing of ur father when ppl are paying respect to u & ur father u should pay back in kind.
Humility is the key.
Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon.
From Allah we come and to Him we return.
May his soul rest in peace! Amen!
——————————–
There is no harm in having a foreign nationality as was the case with Mr. Alavi. He did not have the British nationality by choice, but rather by birth since his parents had migrated to Kenya. Mr. Alavi actively choose to become a Pakistani, which is a fine gesture. If he had been more proud of being a British, then he would have joined the British army.
It is very hard to say anything about who killed Mr. Alavi, but our military cannot be ruled out.
1. The way he was executed seems very professional. Suspected culprits: The miltary.
2. The fact that the journalist has ties with the military points towards that something has been cooked up. Suspected culprits: The miltary.
3. The fact that the letter has not the signature of Mr. Alavi.
——————————-
Where is the problem about the military behaviour?
The problem is not Mr. Alavi personally. The core problem lies in the mindset of the military traditions and leadership. Somehow he British was successful in manipulating the mindset to believe that they (the PAK army) were the heirs of Pakistan. This was spotted by Quaid-e-Azam and he consequently took steps to engage this evil. Unfortunately for Pakistan The Quaid didn’t live long enough to reign in the military (mis)adventure. Bad luck for Pakistan
we already had very few generals to whom we can look up to and i believe General Alvi was one of them.
we are proud of you sir.
may your soul be in peace.
@manidr
who assisinated your father?
can you tell us the names of Generals.
i didnt know your father before, never heard of him , never met him, But as i read in the news about his assissination my first asssumption {which may be wrong} was that he has been Targetting by the Barbaric Terrorists.
[as he was fighting the war for the peace of the furture of our kids]
@manidr
Religion is not politics it should remain separate .
Sorry, i disagree to you politely. Its religion from where we have to derive everything, either politics, finance, social relation etc. I am certainly not refereeing to the politics played by our religious parties but dont say that religion dont have a answer to the politics.
He looks like a piece of shit. I’m glad he’s dead.
Facts:
He was a british dual citizen. Its cool. I read the original article in the british paper, he openly criticised pak army for not doing enough in the so called war on terror while on visit to the british army HQ. The words used were ‘candid’, ‘frank’ etc.
His sister is married to a renowned islamophobic right wing hindu noble-prize winner. Some roots and honour his daughter speaks of on this forum.
So in short, a serving pak army officer maligning the same army while visiting his british friends, kids safely tucked in the US, sister safely in a right wing hindu’s bed, wanted rewards for his silence (read his letter).
Pakistan is better off without such scum.
Assalam-o-Alaikum,
I would like to request all the honourable viewers of pkpolitics that try to comment on any post keeping in view while typing that you are not hurting some one. In this present case Major General (Retd.) Alvi was assasinated by un-seen strong power which need to be investigated properly for the members of grieved family and other ordinary civilians of Pakistan who want the facts to know about this brutal killing.
Secondly, some of our friends who are regular visitors of pkpolitics pointing finger on Maj.General (Retd.) Amir Faisal Alvi without having any detail and knowledge of this incident doing injustice with her daughters @ manidr, at the moment when she is suffering from great loss.
On the other hand, I would like to request both daughters of Gen. Alvi to provide us some more detail of your father’s present telecom business and business partners (he has connection with Salman Taseer’s telecom business) and what about army professional achievements and detail of posting places with years so we can go through those details as well as any possibility of sectarian issue or a factor of wealth / expensive plots / un-known lady’s affair while having in Islamabad issues which is coming under discussions on this block involving him without any proof. Its better to stay away from this block until you people cant clear the alligations pointing on general sahab by visitors.
@ Miss manidr
Let me again express my solidarity on the loss of your dad. Having said that you can not convince me of innocence of your dad by stating that british journalist had access to confidential army documents. First of all, I do not expect a journalist to have access to such sensitive documents. Second, british journalist has specifically mentioned that Maj. Gen Alvi has handed this letter to him. He even mentioned the time and place where incident took place. Your argument, on the other hand, is very lame to say the least.
Dear Mehvish, I am NOT bent on maligning your dad. We are discussing an issue of national importance and I just presented my views on the issue. I know, you as a daughter of Maj Gen Alvi, disagree with me and you are entitled to do that. However, if you sit back and look at whole picture as Mehvish, not as a daughter of slain General, we may reach the same conclusion.
You are right I never met your dad. I am sure he was fine man and dad. This, however, does not alter the facts and circumstances in which he was slain. Yes, everything is not good and we are here today because we honour and pay tributes to wrong people. General Yahya was buried with full military honours, General Ayub was not taken to task for violating constitution, when General Musharraf was forced to step down he was presented a guard of honour and now we are paying tribute to Maj Gen Alvi who killed our muslim brothers and sisters in tribal areas. These Generals live lavish lives with tax payer money and then eventually betray our motherland and kill our own people. Our Generals also let us down every time they fight against India.
As for the name, you have a lovely name and its my favourate name in whole wide world.
Hi Mehvish,
Accept our condolences for the loss of your father and a great friend.i would suggest you not to be entrapped in these petty discussions.Rather i would ask you to write in detail about the achievements and services your benign father rendered out during his professional career.Share with us some of his personal views and his profond thoughts.
Tarique
London
@jazoo u misunderstood my point. I was referring to mr lofty when he wasasking why are we paying tribute to this general. I just said one thing go and ask the soldiers about my father.
I can just say one thing, my father was not killed a month back he was killed 3 years back when he was retired . All that remained was a body that was killed too a month back. Military was his life ,when you r life is taken away nothing remains. If i start telling about my fathers acts of humility and kindness it would seem i am not sure of him. Which i am .
REdtone did have certain issues with people in pakistan .Some pakistanis tried to rip off the MAlaysians first but its hardly unlikely that that was the cause since its not such a profitable company.He was offered alot of deals to join them and side against Malaysians . He never did that. Money doesnt matter character matters and money earned in this way is haram it causes more damage than good. The Malaysians were very impressed with his honesty that is why his contract was again renewed for two years.
Can some one tell me why Musharraf had sacked Maj-Gen (retd) Amir Faisal Alavi prematurely ?
@ doctor
These Generals are busy in pulling each other legs. They dont give a shit about Pakistan or army. This is precisely why they lose every war against India. They are disgrace to our nation!
@d0ctor:
Because Pakistan “Army” is an old boys club? where the jurnails reap the benefits, and the poor jawans die for 6000/month?
Because none of the jurnails speak up when the top brass commits HENIOUS CRIMES like usurpation of political power and abrogation of the constitution?
Because the Military Establishemtn has become a pawn of foreign powers, and because it acts like not a professional army but a professional gang of mafioso’s with ‘A Don at the top’.
Because when there is NO Merit, No loyalty to the constitution, and NO CONCEPT OF DUTY TO THE NATION, except blind loyalty to the COAS, palace intrigues and old boy’s networks compete for political power within the echelons of the GHQ, where one man, namely Musharraf was at the pinnacle of power, able to give huge benefits to jurnails and other cronies by just moving his lips in their favor.
Gen. Alvi must have failed one of those power struggles between the various cliques, and as a result he ‘fell from favor’ and when tried to make a stink about it, he was gotten rid of.
Musharraf ruled by decree, like a king, and our Army Top brass were behind him shoulder to shoulder, supporting him to the hilt (with the knife that was in the back of the Pakistani Nation btw), and the larger numbers of soldiers (colonel and below) kept a criminal silence because they also benefit from this RACKET we call The Pakistan Army.
The only ones who are the big supporters of democracy, justice and whatnot amongst the jurnails are the ones who have been scorned by powers that be in the Military.
As long as they have a nipple (choosni) in their mouth, a choosni of a juicy governership, directorship of a national corporation, some other lucrative job, they stay quiet.
This is why I have no sympathies for this ruling class. At a personal/human level the loss is understandable, but at a larger level, this particular group ie; the army brass has really done a DhaRan-Takhta of our country, nation and our homeland.
This is why we as a nation MUST REFORM OUR MILITARY ACADEMIES. So that the soldiers onwards to generails understand who exactly is boss. Not america, not the USCENTCOM, The US Ambassador, but THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN through their elected representatives.
This is exactly what Hamood-ur-Rehman commission also recommended nearly 4 decades ago. Did it come to pass?
NO!
Who do you think stopped it from happening?
The old boys club. The jurnails.
@manidr,
i m sorry for your loss honestly, i did not know father in anyway save for the media reports, therefore i did not take either your side or “their” side.
saying his figure was controversial is self-evident. perhaps i should be more sensitive to your feelings in the event of his demise, if you feel i have offended you, then i humbly apologize.
The onus is on you to restore his honor and i wish you the best in that endeavor.
As for what i know about the military… or who do i know in the army.. hmmm… may be not much, don’t know if you’ve heard the names Gen. Shahid Aziz, Brig. Aftab Siddiqi (take a wild guess who his daughter is married to), Gen. Muzzaffar Usmani, Brg Firoz Khan… ADC Capt. Mumtaz (another chance to guess who he was ADC to).. that’s about all i could think of off the top of my head.
lastly, you must know i habror great feelings of resentment against our military establishment, and these names i have mentioned know that first-hand. I am a firm supporter of democracy in our homeland no matter how contrived it may be.
@lofty: “and now we are paying tribute to Maj Gen Alvi who killed our muslim brothers and sisters in tribal areas.”
You mean the same “muslim brothers” of yours who 3 days ago dug up a dead body and hung it by a pole? Something that not even the barbarians of ayyam-e-jaahiliyyat did? (come on, make up a conspiracy now… it must be the jews who did it!)
I am not surprised that supporters of such acts are on this forum barking at another dead body, tormenting the “alleged” relatives of the dead man.
All in the name of Islam and “our muslim brothers”.
Produce me ONE EXAMPLE that shows that the Prophet (S) did inhuman things like this?? And people have the NERVE to invoke Islam in these geo-political conflicts!
Some perspective please!
@manidr,
I sincerely has a suggestion for you. I consider an Innocent’s loss is everybody’s loss. Everybody has his fatherly relations and can imagine your pain. Well if you are sure enough that Gen. Alvi dint write any of the letter to any of the British journalist or if they (newspaper or journalist) dont have a signed copy of the letter. Plz either move to the Pakistani court or to the British court against the guy who is claiming for and sue him for his falsly claim. This is the best way to restore the due prestige of your beloved father. Plz think about it.
@Ghost of TK
Mauwiah did
He killed Sahabi-e-Rasul Hajar bin Adi(ra) & cut his body into pieces.
Mauwiah also killed Mohammad Bin Abi Bakr(ra) & burned his dead body in Donkey’s skin.
@jazoo: Well don’t forget Hind.
The point is, that our “Muslim Brozzers” are acting worse than the fvcking Kuffar-e-Makkah
Food for thought?
@jazoo,
you’d want to provide solid references before you pontificate on that, mate.
don’t know who’s teaching you history, i’d sure want to be “enlightened” (no pun intended) with the context and reference to the “historical facts” you’ve just mentioned.
In an effort to eradicate freedom of expression, Muawiyah started off with
the killing of Hujr, who was a famous Tabi’i and the respected Sahabi of
Imam Ali (AS). During the time of Muawiyah when Imam Ali (AS) was being
cursed from the pulpits of the mosques, it caused a lot of pain and grief
to the Muslims, but people were patient. However Hujr in Kufah could not
further bear this and in resistance Hujr used to praise Imam Ali (AS) and
curse Muawiyah. Mughairah who was the Governor of Kufah at that time was
considerate towards Hujr. However, during the Governership of Ziyad, when
Basra was also included with Kufah, differences emerged between Ziyad and
Hujr. Ziyad used to swear (say bad words) and Hujr used to reply to Ziyad.
During this period Hujr also corrected Ziyad when he delayed the Friday
Prayer. Eventually Hujr along with his twelve companions were arrested on
the following charges
– Hujr had organized a group and he used to swear at Muawiyah
– He instigates people to fight against Muawiyah
– He claims that the Caliphate belongs to Imam Ali and his
progeny (AS)
– He supports Abu Turab (nickname of Imam Ali (AS))
– He sends his blessings on Imam Ali (AS)
So under these charges, these personalities were sent to Muawiyah, and
Muawiyah ordered their killing. Before their execution, the executors said
to them:
We have been ordered that if you show negative feelings towards Ali
and curse him you shall be free to go, otherwise you shall have to die
(shall be killed).
Upon hearing this Hujr and his companions refused to do what they were
asked to do, and Hujr replied:
I can’t utter those words from my tongue that would anger my Lord!
Following this they were killed, with the exception of Abdurrahman Ibn
Hassaan who was sent by Muawiyah to Ziyad with the order that Ziyad himself
should brutally kill him, and thereby, he was buried alive.
references :
- Histroy of al-Tabari, v4, pp 190-206
- al-Isti’ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v1, p135
- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, pp 234-242
- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, pp 50-55
- History of Ibn Khaldoon, v3
Reviving the Customs of the Jahiliyyah
======================================
Amputations of the head and moving the heads from one place to another,
the mistreatment of the dead bodies out of sheer passion of revenge, that
was prevalent during the days of ignorance (al-Jahiliyyah), started again
among the Muslims during this era.
Case 1:
The very first head that was amputated from the body during the
Islamic period was of Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA), the famous companion of
the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF). Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad
narrates a tradition as follows, that has also been mentioned in the
Tabaqat of Ibn Sa’d that:
In the Battle of Siffin, when the head of Ammar Yasir (RA) was
cut off and was taken to Muawiyah, two people were arguing over
it, each one claiming that he had killed Ammar.
references:
– Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Traditions #6538, #6929 Printed in Dar al-
Maarif, Egypt 1952
– al-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa’d, v3, p253
Case 2:
The second head that was amputated from the body was for Umro Ibn al-
Hamaq, who was among the companions of the prophet (Allah’s blessings
on him and his cleansed progeny). Muawiyah alleged that he has
participated in the assassination of Uthman. When efforts were carried
out for his arrest, he hid in a cave, where a snake bit him. The
people who were in his pursuit cut off the head from the dead body and
took it to Ziyad. He then sent it to Muawiyah in Damascus, where the
head was roamed around the city and was finally presented to his wife
in her lap.
references:
– al-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa’d, v6, p25
– al-Isti’ab, v2, p440
– al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p48
– Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, v8, p24
Case 3:
The same atrocity was committed against Muhammad Ibn Abi Bakr (RA) who
was the Governor for Imam Ali (AS) in Egypt. When Muawiyah captured
Egypt, he was arrested and was killed. His dead body was placed in a
belly of a dead donkey and then was brutally burnt.
references:
– al-Isti’ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v1, p235
– History of al-Tabari, v4, p79
– History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p180
– History of Ibn Khaldoon, v2, p182
Case 4:
After this, it became a tradition for people who sought vengeance
after their enemies were killed. Imam Husain’s (AS) head was
amputated, and was taken from Karbala to Kufah and from Kufah to
Damascus. The body of Imam Husain (AS) was brutally ruined by the
running of horses.
references
– History of al-Tabari, v4, pp 349-351,356
– History of Ibn Kathir, v3, pp 296-298
– al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, pp 189-192
@jazoo: interesting. btw, what is your opinion re: such acts? then and/or now? just wondering.
Also where did you get the Al-Tabari reference? Is this and article which you quoted which has the Al-Tabari reference?
@Ghost of TK
What I think–type of people u follow–u get the inspirations from them.
Perhaps u have read one of my mail where I point out how difficult it is for a true Muslim Pakistani General to push the button of nuclear warhead.
All these references are authentic & solid.
@ Ghost of TK
People of tribal areas have committed more horrific acts than this, since war was waged upon them after sep 11. We condemn such acts unequivocally.
You need to understand every action has a reaction. How many taliban blew themselves up before sep 11? How many bodies were hanged with poles before our army was sent in tribal areas. Crimes that pakistan army has committed in tribal areas are analogous to those in East pakistan. Pakistani militray forces are not immune to vicious political conditions that are prevalent today in Pakistan. Infact they are the primarily responsible for this disaster.
I have great regards for the feelings of a daughter and I was first to express my solidarity when I found Gen Alvi is prent on forum. This, however, will not stop me from pointing an error in her judgement and expressing my patroitism that I owe to motherland.
When some people committed treason and stole camels that belonged to state, Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)ordered to cut their hand and feet on opposite sides and their eyes were branded with hoted pieces of iron. Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu’), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)”
Thats how our Prophet dealt with traitors who violated rules/constitution and we should do same to these Generals.
@lofty
Bro i understand your feelings but please keep in mind that nothing is proved here by the court of law rather its all speculations. We cant conclude based on the media reports. For me if someone is ready to go in war field and fight himself (against whoever), that means he is atleast patriotic and dont care for his life. I still remember he was probably among one who jumped himself on 23 march being the General (correct me if mistaken).Very few people has dare to do so when u have option to leave behind!
@ Shaz
Thank you for being so considerate. I dont believe General Alvi’s case is under judicial scrutiny, or is it? We build our opinions through media reports and debates on tv channels and forums such as this one. If I am wrong, please point an error in my judegment, I will be glad to change my view and I will not hesitate to admit my error in public. If General Alvi was so fine solider, why did he not become Lieutnant General.
Answer is very clear at least to me. Generals are busy in protecting their own interests and stakes. They are always prepared to kill and murder their own people but when it comes to fighting enemy they hide in their holes. They are disgrace to our nation!
one “General group” killed the member of another “general group”. Now this thread is full of emotions.Letter from his daughtor carried only tears, emotions and “talks” but not facts. I don’t know few LF(Liberal Facist)”commentators” are giving lesson of emotions here but in othe threads they are preeching of not to be emotional while arguing. what the f<<<ing standards they have.
To bring smile on LF’s faces we must shout….Army and ISI murdabad.
Lot of emotions has been expressed, so i think now we should end “……..” story. Sorry if anyone mind it, but this comment is cure for those who are playing with emotions .
@lofty
Certainly its not under security by the court. But one cant judge the things from the debates, media etc when evidence in not so clear. I agree to you that most of the Generals are playing for themselves. But one needs to differentiate the good from the bads. Promotion in ranks is not the only criteria to judge the finest of a person, if so, why Musharaf was uplifted by 7 to be ranked as COAS. What i am saying is that one should not be so harsh or rigid without any concrete evidence. Allah knows better what is in one’s heart and mind.
@ Shaz
No human has a perfect knowledge and I am certainly not rigid in my opinions. If I have said something wrong with regards to General Alvi’s case, you are welcome to correct me. I have drawn my conclusion from media reports and I believe them to be credible. If I find out today or tomorrow I was wrong in my judgement, I will have different view of General Alvi. On the basis of what has come to light so far, I cant have a favourable view of Gen. Alvi.
Can you? If you believe media is spreading falsehood you would have to tell us why they are doing so. If being a fine soldier is not a criteria to make it to position, then what is?
First all my sympathies eid the daughter of ‘no doubt a brave man’
i really dont like te issue on the forum .
it is debate for the sake of it…. and thats all…. atleast we must admire the sacrifices of the fellow….and let me tell u all he was te first ever Maj Gen Of Pak Army from SSG ……..
i have the onr to serve wit him at two place …1 in sialkot 2 . in GHQ once he was GOC SSG…. i was doing ADC to a gen and we met.
neways……. a few guys here want to show off thheir concern at others skin and blow their mind….useles… concentrate on yourself…. must admit 2 thngs.
1. the dear daughter is in great agony.
2. the officer has gained his PEAK means he has someting in HIM….
.
.
mahvish take care of yourself and let me tell you….the greatest way to honour your father is be GOOD TO OTHERS LIKE HIM.
TAKE CARE ALL
HAJJAJ
“may Allah rest his soul in eternal peace and give his family the stregth to overcome this great loss”
Last photo of Alvi day before he died.
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/listenpk/images/detail/#120/dsc0167jc3.jpg
God rest his soul in peace. He was a true friend
@ lofty u asked me why he did not make it to a lt general …. My father had no one in pakistan army to favor him he came as a boy from another country . He made it to the rank of a maj general all due to his own hard work , no one helped him. Unfortunately even in the military they is politics at the higher level . That is something you have no control over . I dont think ranks are a measure of your patriotism .
Not only was my father the first GOC ssg OF the Pakistan army he was the only general to do para jumps . I told you before , i donot defend my father because i am his daughter i defend him because i know him and you dont. If you knew my father you wont be here talking like this . I told you my name you didnot even tell your name . Lastly, i have a promise to someone i have to keep that is why i am silent . I only can tell you people some things are not what they seem .You only are seeing what someone wants people to see.
I said before we are descendants of Hazrat Abbas ( A.S). His loyalty is still remembered and that is what my father always told me its in our blood to be loyal . I dont care what the media says . I know my father like i know myself . What we are today is because of my father . I dont need people who never met my father to tell me about him . I told you before if you doubt me go and ask someone who knew him . If someone is guilty of his murder, do you ever think they will accept it infront of the whole nation .No . never .All these allegations and absurd discussion online only makes my faith more firm someone wanted to save themselves very very badly so they killed him . I donot know who killed him but yes the weapons were 9 mm military weapons . and from what i have heard the atttackers came into the car to make sure he was dead .normal bullets couldnot kill my father he was shot 3 times in the brain too. They were numerous witnesses to the incident yet how come no one has come forward to identify the attackers .No one will . evryone is scared .Do you think if my father had evn though i am not sure that was his letter or not would have left the letter with some one in Pakistan they would have told people . Never . People are scared . I dont want to blame anyone at this moment . The only funny thing in this whole thing is how people view things they changed their focus from who killed him to how does a british have a letter . There is no mention of anthing high security in that letter . No taliban no nothing . As for the names of those 2 gens ….lol i am sorry the whole army knows …go and please ask them .
This is my last answer to you all . I wrote because you were maligning my father but then again its in the history of Muslims . They brought the grandshildren of the Prophet(M.P.B.U.H) onto the streets .They were labelled as traitors too , you know. IF people of their heritage can be labelled and mistreated , me and my family are mere normal followers of the same Prophet(M.P.U.H). we are nothing .They bore much more than us and that is the only thing that calms me. We are proud to call ourslevs Muslims yet i donot believe a muslim can call another names or talk against him without knowing even one fact. No. This is not islam.
I donot need any court anything to prove my father is innocent. Everything in pakistan can be bought . That is the truth ,accept it or not . I hope on the day of judgement when GOD does justice i prove it to you.
@lofty if my father was here he would have merely smiled at your allegations. I am sorry i am not like him that is why i wrote . BUt there is one thing he taught me and that is what i tend to follow . I leave it to GOD . i know HE wont disappoint me. because all the others have disappointed me so i await HIS justice .
My father has a outstanding military career you can ask anyone that he passed out 1st in the commando course,he did a ranger course from the Usa. He waS THE only armour officer who became COMD SSG and then he lifted ssg to the level of a div. SSg was his life and his passion . i feel his loss but he died long before when they took his uniform. he always wanted to go in action and perhaps he got what he wanted.
Please donot ask me more questions i have a promise to keep .
I am tired of this useless debate. Please sit back, relax and do some good deeds for sake of your father’s soul. Beside your good deeds, charity etc nothing else is going to help him, even if we found him innocent and Pak Army awards NH.
Most of us have already paid him tribute being a father of a sister. But being a solider of Pakistan Army, we have every right to discuss his job/adventures, forcible retirement, killing, letter and hidden factors behind all of that. He was a servant of Govt. of Pakistan and was answerable to the people, govt and his institution. (though sadly, it has never happened in this country – esp. for any Gen./Solider)
@mr ksjadoon you really are ignorant. You didnot understand my words. well you are a citizen of pakistan too lets discuss your life first. You have a right unfortunately he is dead and when the person is not there to defend himself you cant pass ajudgement. wait for the day of judgement.
I hope one day the public does wake up to the truth rather being led astray by the media.
As for good deeds , thats a real nice advice but there proves my point . why are people worried about another persons deeds we are not answerable to anyone besides God for them. I wonder why you getting irritated . Go and ask musharraf first he is still alive .
Love to hear that you understood an ignorant very well (there are millions of ignorant like me in Pak) – go read it again and again and again – “damn psycho trying to defend a traitor”.
@Manidr
Please accept my heartiest condolences. It is a great tragedy to loose one’s father .
I am not that familiar with this case but after reading couple of articles online i have few questions in my mind. If either you could answer them or guide me to the sources that have information i would be obliged.
1:- Your father, as i gather, was a Kenyan born British National it this the case? When did he forgo his nationality ( British)?
2:- Was he ever trained at Fort Bragg or similar kind of installation because it is my understanding that current “Military Elite” is among the last badge of foreign trained soldiers( probably a greater worry for US then they care to admit) and he was a part of that Elite for quite some time.
3:- Was there any effort made by your father to “patch up” with Pervez Musharraf? To clear his name? would your father have gone on the record and provided that information to the British Journalist even after succeeding in securing an agreement with the general to restore his image?
i do apologize if these questions seems a but rude but you have to admit he was an important man, holding a very sensitive post, ( to which i don’t think he should have been given a chance to be at, he was not born Pakistani and it is rule of thumb never to put someone on such a high place who is not born citizen. All superpowers and other developed countries have this either as a rule written or followed)and thus it is understood that we as nation should have a right to probe and that could be ugly.
WTF?? You guys are praising such a bigot who was against peace accords in tribal areas who play a vital role in killing of many many Pakistanis in tribal areas. And I am not surprised at all by his actions, this Muslim rivalry runs deep in his family, after all his sister Nadira Khanum Alvi now Nadira Naipaul married to a chauvinist hindu writer Vidiadhar Surajprasad Naipaul who V.S. NAIPAUL does not like Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular and was knighted by queen for his anti Islam rant just like Salman Rushdi
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040307/her5.jpg
@mandir,
Just ignore these bigots, it does not matter what they think. There will always be “munafiqs” among us who will want to discuss every one’s character except theirs.
It’s the very same people who called Allama Iqbal and Jinnah kafir. No amount of reasoning can change their opinion.
Your dad was a professional soldier and will be remembered as such. His case rest with the ultimate Judiciar Allah. While it’s the right of all citizen’s to question or critique the actions of public servant’s, However, going as far as pouring scorn and levelling baseless allegations on him when the person can’t answer it is going too far.
@ geele.mitti,
Musharraf was not born in Pakistan, did you ever raised objection on him ? Which one of the Pakistan born generals are you so proud of ? Please let me know, I am dying to find this out.
@Dusky,
What are you ? Taliban’s vice and virtue police ? Every one of us is answerable to Almightly for his or her own actions, period. Faisal Alvi’s sister’s actions are not part of the discussion here. She will be answerable to Allmighty Allah for her actions, you don’t need to raise hell for this. Allmightly does not need your reminders. I am sure there is alot of room for improvement in your personal life so I would advice you to do some introseption before going on a next preaching tour.
@manidr
You sure have been busy every where (a lot of blogs) calling everyone a coward for raising questions about your father. I know you will not agree but certainly the questions raised by geeli.mithi, lofty, etc. about General Alavi are VALID. You and your bleeding-heart supporters might consider them unfair and horrific but that does not take away from the fact that your father was in bed with Mush, a person I hate the most (Here is a pic of him with his buddy Mush). I certainly would like to add a few of my own questions and maybe you or someone else can answer them.
Can anyone deny he was masterminding the Angor Ada operation in 2004, when many Arabs and Chechans based in the tribal areas were killed or arrested and turned over to the Americans.
That too me is dispcable and the reason why I hate these mercenery Generals and those following their orders. And wasn’t it the “soldiers” of SSG that carried out the massacre at Lal Masjid?
There is no question his murder was most foul and probably carried out on the orders of the named Generals or Mush himself. Is it not treasonous then — there is that term again — that those two generals are still probably part of the army (maybe I am using too strong a term but killing a General of the Pakistan Army for personal reasons/gains is at the very least an act punishable by death).
Sorry for sounding harsh but please cut the cr@p like “normal bullets could not kill my father”. He was human and not superhuman, nor a werewolf.
I certainly would not question his loyalty but I certainly DO question who he was loyal to. Appears to me he was more loyal to Mush than anything.
It certainly is VALID to ask how he landed that job at CEO of REDtone? What qualified him to head a tech company? Is it really unfair to ask if he was picked by the company so he could use his military connections to secure business for REDtone?
I also am find it interesting the person being most abusive to others and supportive of you has had this to say previously (this is only a small sample):
TK Says on May 20th, 2008 at 12:27 am
TK Says on May 20th, 2008 at 12:50 am
TK Says on May 20th, 2008 at 2:45 am
TK Says on June 3rd, 2008 at 4:08 am
TK Says on June 3rd, 2008 at 3:42 am
TK Says on June 2nd, 2008 at 10:03 pm
(BTW I do agree will all of TK’s comments I quoted above)
vow TK , now I hope this family of dishearted daughter , brother , sister , cant believe married to hindu of a traitor will not post anything and may be adm would accept her request of removing the post.May be better for her to be quite , yes it was a loss for the daughter but this persons credential is scary , he was a ruthless person , btw was he involved in lal mosque massacre too !
Everybody’s father and mother are their most valuable assets. Everything can be replaced like wife, husband, brother, sister, children, money, business etc. But by nature there is only one set of parent. I fully realize your loss but I fail to understand as to what was the purpose of having this letter here especially when the prestige of the Pakistan Army is at its lowest ebb both at home and abroad. A vast majority of the people simply do not have any sympathy with members of the Armed Forces of Pakistan and their kits and kin. If your purpose was to draw sympathy from the people, the time is not ripe. But if you are a US citizen, your best course of action will be to get a lawyer and sue the Government of Pakistan for not finding the murderer of your dad. Call your Senator and Congressman and tell them the facts. With the President elect Obama, I think that you will be heard.
If you are not a US citizen then since your dad was a British citizen, ask the British Government to investigate, unless he had surrendered his British nationality to join the Pakistan Army.
nota, what’s wrong with killing arabs and chechans in FATA? That is the best thing anyone can do for the region. Hand them over to whoever, doesn’t matter, as long as they and their brainwashed filth are exterminated.
And “massacre” at lal masjid? Very disappointing to read mullah inspired comments from you.
To clarify: generals who are for killing of taliban and other jihadi freaks have some redeeming quality in them despite their associations with the rest of broken institution.
a brief :
condi and mukhjee are busying grilling and bad mouthing pakistan across the world…(with a nod and a wink from zardari…to check faujistan and allow pakistan to emerge from under the boots of faujistan), nawaz, knowing that these elements are the same that perpetuated Kargil…makes a final appeal to zardari to uphold COD. zardari meanwhile ..wants nothing to do with the right wing forces (imagine..a resurgent nawaz in power with the right wing mullah forces…proclaiming himself…’ameer-ul-momineen’)…..and now let the questions begin. as for gen. alvi…lets just please move on.
although one can argue that gen. alvi may have been a victim of the rift within the army ; pro-us versus pro-faujistan and pro-pakistan elements in the army. the pro-pakistan elemens which are against the pro-faujistan elementsm, will not step up to the plate just yet. american and indian agression being the reason. so what does this leave us with…where are things…where are they headed.???
questions…please!
@rumjee
please do not bad mouth any religion. it only reflects poorly on your religious values.
@Jatt
My question regarding Alvi’s nationality and my believe that one should not allow foreign born national such a high post did not imply that this is exclusively for Alvi. I consider it vital for our security, solidarity and unity to have it as a standard for any sensitive/ high level post be it COAS or president of Pakistan so you took it out of the general context and applies specifically to this situation which is not what i meant.
I might have criticized Musharaf but not in great detail because i started contributing to this blog about two months ago and Musharaf was not in the picture. This also doesnot imply that i am taking his side , it is just that at this time he is not in the radar.
I am still waiting for the replies and by the look of it i will have to wait long.
@nota
His daughter never claim he was infallible.
His photo with Musharaf means nothing nor does it make him his buddy.
High ranking Army officer has to be close to COAS–You make ur case weak when u try to find trivial flaws in this General.
He did this & he did that–when he was in Army he suppose to do whatever asked by his superior.
TK shows good human spirit by changing his stance when he knew his daughter is also here. We do not want to hurt her feelings.
@FahadAfridi
“nota, what’s wrong with killing arabs and chechans in FATA?”/i>
Are you serious?
First of all one must say alleged Aabs and Chechens. As far as I remember, NOT ONE body of a foreigner has been shown to the public or the media. So forgive me for not buying this. Same way I don’t buy all the dead in FATA, Swat, etc. as “militants”, especially the women and children.
Also, I certainly refuse to accept it is in any way justified sell — yes, our army admittedly has been selling — these people to Americans.
“And “massacre” at lal masjid? Very disappointing to read mullah inspired comments from you.”
What do you call killing of at least a thousand men, women, and children in a building? People (without a mullah bent) were calling it a “bloodbath” when only 10 people were reported killed. Using the word “massacre” certainly has nothing to do with me being of “mullah bend”. People are calling Mumbai a massacre. And it was. But they are hardly being mullahs. Just so you know, here is the definition of the word from a dictionary:
mas⋅sa⋅cre
Pronunciation [mas-uh-ker]
noun, verb, -cred, -cring.
–noun
1. the unnecessary, indiscriminate killing of a large number of human beings or animals, as in barbarous warfare or persecution or for revenge or plunder.
2. a general slaughter, as of persons or animals: the massacre of millions during the war.
3. Informal. a crushing defeat, esp. in sports.
–verb (used with object)
4. to kill unnecessarily and indiscriminately, esp. a large number of persons.
5. Informal. to defeat decisively, esp. in sports
To clarify: generals who are for killing of taliban and other jihadi freaks have some redeeming quality in them despite their associations with the rest of broken institution.
I agree. If this is honestly all they were doing, I totally second that. If they had been doing their job instead of dealing in plots, their institution certainly would not be broken. If they had been minding the store, I guarantee you these “taliban and other jihadi freaks” would never have taken root.
@jazoo
“TK shows good human spirit by changing his stance when he knew his daughter is also here. We do not want to hurt her feelings.”
I don’t want to hurt her feelings either. But I am not going to change my stance just because “his daughter is also here.” Sorry but that is “weak”. Just because a generals daughter is here I am supposed to forget all the crimes committed by them? Sorry but I can’t. Feel free to call me mullah-inspired, lacking human spirit, STOOPID, donkey or what ever.
“His photo with Musharaf means nothing nor does it make him his buddy”…”High ranking Army officer has to be close to COAS”
So lets settle. He was “close” to Mush, his COAS.
“He did this & he did that–when he was in Army he suppose to do whatever asked by his superior.”
I sure hope you are not suggesting “whatever” includes accepting to do illegal acts, like slaughtering innocents, overthrowing governments, threatening the CJ, etc.
@nota, tk, peja, and other working minds
why are you wasting time, words, and energy on gen. alvi??
@Kafka8
I don’t believe it is waste of time. Generals are a centre of rotation in PKpolitics. To discuss their actions and moves in general is essential to understand (not justify) their treacherous moves and in the long run to clear up the mess they have created. If at all it is possible
They have been fooling the nation for a long time and maybe the damage is irreparable…..God forbid!
IMO we cannot just say “mitti pao” and continue our lives while innocent people have been killed, are being killed and have been sold to foreign masters.
@ manidr
i have tears in my eyes after reading the letter. I pray our soldier rests in peace.
To all who say rubbish about our soldiers. Just because our army has some black sheeps in it does not mean every soldier has to be wrong or bad. Our soldiers fight for us from the bottom rank to the top. Yes there are some very inhumane people but that happens everywhere. that doesnt mean we disrespect people especially the ones who die for us
..i salute general Alavi because he was our soldier and our citizen. HE could have stayed a british citizen and not give a crap about pakistan but he loved pakistan and not only left his citizenship but also joined the army to serve pakistan. not many people do that believe me 
manidr ..please dont stress yourself by replying to the uneducated people who utter nothing but nonsense here. I have been in this forum for years now and some people just have to create issues for fun so please do no waste ur tie. people of pakistan including me need to understand that our soldiers fight for us for a pay which is nothing.
Pakistan zindabad
I just read ur posts again ..ur replies to people like texasboy and etc. I have been following them for a long time and as i said they have nothing else to do but to create arguments which dont even make sense
our soldiers fight for us for a pay that is nothing….hahahahahahahah
nota, early operations as conducted by alavi and others were actually targeting the right people, unlike the current topi drama in sawat with mullah fazlullah playing hide and seek with his isi handlers. On the one hand you say that pakistan handed over arabs and chechens to the US and then are asking to see pictures of arabs and chechans. Unlike the taliban, ispr does not yet release videos of dead people.
And I’m not even sure why you bought lal masjid (a favorite topic of jihadis to try to obfuscate the real issue) into the discussion. Alavi was out of the army when lal masjid happened anyway, so that tangent is really irrelevant
@FahadAfridi
“On the one hand you say that pakistan handed over arabs and chechens to the US and then are asking to see pictures of arabs and chechans”
Actually I was questioning if any “arabs and chechens” were killed or captured. I am not asking for pictures but confirmation of the these “foreigners” from a sourse besides ISPR (A highly unreliable — or should I say lying sacks of sh!t — source for truth. If Alavi was indeed targeting the right people, I really have no issues with that. But I just don’t buy the “every deat vietnamese is a dead ‘VC’” lie.
Yes, I know “Alavi was out of the army when lal masjid happened” and I only brought it up in reference to Mush’s, SSG’s and the Army’s — three things very much associated with Alavi — role in it. Hardly a “tangent” as it did have a huge role in setting my perception about the Army. It proved to me our army was capable of wholesale slaughter of our very own, be they young girls or whatever…
@Kafka8
“why are you wasting time, words, and energy on gen. alvi??”
Well….
I’ll try and stop.
@nota
@ geele.mitti,
I still don’t agree with your assertion that “that one should not allow foreign born national such a high post”. No one, chooses his/her time and place of birth. But we do have control over things from thereafter.
I like to know more about your views on General Zia and Dr. Abdul Qadeer ? Both of them were not born in Pakistan. Would advocate calling Dr. Qadeer a traitor ?
@ FahadAfridi
I agree with nota on tribal area issue. Let me add couple of more things. If there were/are arabs and chechens in tribal area how long will it take us to kill them. Pakistan has been fighting this war for last six years where as world war 2 took less than five. Karazi is already begging taliban for negotiations and pakistani army on the other hand is killing innocent pakistanis in the name of “war on terror”. As far as lal masjid is concerned that horrific act has been condemned by people from all walks of life even liberal fascist condemned it. You sound like an “ultra liberal fascist”.
Rana Umair
Are you General in pak army. Tears in eyes and labelling rest of man kind as “uneducated” are the traits of our Generals. We are so proud of our Jawans but they are led lambs. “Lions are led by lambs in pak army”.
@ manidr
I have great regards for the feelings of a daughter who loved her dad so much. This, however, does not alter the facts about the life of Maj Gen Alvi. You can look at things as a daughter of slain General; please allow me to retain my perpective. By the way did you guys know Maj. Gen. Alvi was having an affair with a divorced pakistani woman. Did you know about this?
@lofty: “You sound like an “ultra liberal fascist”.”
And you sir sound like you’ve never met a dictionary in your life. I suggest you look up the meanings of these words especially the last two.
Funny Islamo Fascists use the lingo of the NeoCons when it suits them. I’m with @VOX when he says that it’s a misnomer. I also hope you can recognize the familiar “logic” used in the 1st sentence.
I won’t use the term ‘beardo’ at this juncture because “probability of hissy fits on PKP is already quite high!”
@ Ghost Of TK
I was expecting you to comment on last post that I wrote for you. Anyway, I know excatly what I have said. What did you find so odd about it? I will not use a word “hypocrite” for you either because you have rightly pointed out hissy fits on this forum are quite high.
@nota:
You said: “I also am find it interesting the person being most abusive to others and supportive of you has had this to say previously (this is only a small sample):”
I think your accusations of “abusive to others” ring a bit hollow after you consistently and over long periods of time engaged in calling fellow posters “Blow Jobs”… Obviously that doesn’t come under the rubric of “abusive”, because you’re doing it.
Re: what I’ve had to say about Jurnails, I still stand by it and I don’t think any of my statements can be characterized as a ‘change of stance’.
First of all thanks for collecting my excellent and most quotable thoughts in one place. I do hope you took the time to quote me properly and didn’t do a lazy job like the last time when you misled other venerable posters into thinking I said all that in one paragraph.
Moving on…
My problem is with the institution itself and the most visible symptom of that is the leadership in our military and that relates directly back to the system of education & indoctrination that does not take into account the constitutional role of armed forces and their obligations towards the constitution.
Obviously, none of this bothered ‘the beardos” all the time they were being used by this very same corrupt military like re-usable condoms, because the two had a rather “intimate” (some say incestuous) relationship.
It is in the catastrophic breakdown of this relationship that we see scorned beardo’s finding catharsis in taking dead-bodies out of graves and pissing on them and hanging them in public. And their cyber-cohorts, venerable posters like the ones we see in action on this thread do the same “virtually”. Not satisfied with the death of an SSG jurnail, in which they take secret pleasure, They take revenge on the “alleged” (did you bother to notice the use of word in my posts?) relatives of the said jurnail.
But this relationship that the beardo’s mistook for “going steady” was actually more like a “one night stand” on behalf of the world pimp called “Unky Sam”.
So, after the “Wham, Bam, thank you Imam” of the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s , the Military and Unky Sam have moved on to juicier whores (India?) but the mullah’s are still standing around, holding their bags of horse-shit wondering what happened to their tight virgin kootch, that they were ’saving for the rightful caliph’.
So, “till death do us part” it is for the beardos. I have no sympathy for either of these American whores. Military Junta, corrupt jurnails and the goddamned Beardo’s who were the willing accomplices of these very same jurnails and the instrument’s of Pakistan’s destruction.
It is poetic justice that these two groups are now at each others throats, locked in a death grip.
Pakistan was lost through the actions of these two whores, and at least I will have the satisfaction of watching both of these evil entities destroy each other like the rabid dogs that they were trained to be for Master Zion.
Quite “funny” comment
What a pain you are feeling 
I don’t know why are you assuming that i think Alvi was a traitor. I never said that in my posts and never implied that either.
Zia was born before Partition and so was AQ Khan so this condition does not apply to them . Zia was legacy of British India where as AQ Khan was indispensable to Pakistan’s nuclear program so that risk was necessary. I am sure he was thoroughly scrutinized and watched over. Alvi satisfies neither of these conditions. He was ordinary soldier who rose to an important position, he was dispensable and replaceable and he was born in 1966 when we had sufficient infrastructure, to allow precedence to native population over any other born foreign. All over the world if u see (with few exceptions) this is rule of thumb in army, navy or any other important sensitive department in the government hierarchy. Consider it prejudice or unjust, that will not change the situation. Unless you are pressed to accept a foreign you should accept one. He came to Pakistan when he was 12 years old a long time to develop/imprint thoughts. There are lot of things involved in it. Pride of being Pakistani, Pride of being born here giving sense of importance to all those who are born in this country and have lived their lives through the trenches. I could agree that he is a very hard working honest person but i cannot agree that he is equal to a similar born Pakistani because that is a distinction only a Pakistani has. Call it extreme Nationalism but it is true. You have to be prejudice in these matters. Look at the elite of countries who are sitting on our heads now a days and you will see that how prejudice they are about the place of birth. Now it is more important as every where people are discriminated not on the basis of their nationality but their place of birth. If being a British born gives you exclusive rights in UK then being a Pakistani born should give you exclusive rights in Pakistan.
@manidr
my all sympathies with you and your family.
mostly people tried their best to portray him as a traitor or all kind of stupid discussion.and lately the matter become worst,when you and your sister try to defend the allegations,or try to clarify his position.i believe it was not good at all to debate on this forum.
we as a nation are very emotional without any solid reason.we simply debate for nothing.even without knowing someone personally.
we are living between kind of people,who still favoured Yazeed and Muawia.
we are proud to be the descendants of Hazrat Abbas (A.S)
Proud hain ham keh Hazrat Ali (A.S)kay gharanay say hain.Jin Ka kehna hay,keh “jahilon ki baat par Khamoshi Aqal ki Zakat hay”
@ Ghost of TK
You call others “beardo”, where as uncivilised and medieval traits are evident in yourself. If nota has used a uncivilised word it does not give you license to use filthy language about others. Your contradictory statement, poor knowledge of spellings and grammer makes it even more difficult to understand your logic. You shift your view point with the prevailing breeze and have no principles what so ever.
last post from was directed to
Jatt
For the record, I have no personal grudges against or love for this Gen. Alvi, but common decency demands that we don’t torment the family of a dead person. That’s just me the ‘abusive’ ‘liberal fascist’ talking here. Because I’m sure someone is going to quote me “Hazrat” Muavia now to tell me how it is okay to piss on a deadbody n all.
Also, we wouldn’t have to waste our breath on this stupid debate, had not someone found it to be an opportune time to post two Jamatia articles in a row (and I thought this was a PML-N outfit… shows how much I know).
Not only that, that bravehearts at PKP who posted this article without disclosing the name of the author, later changed the name of the original islamist propaganda piece to the title “The story of General Alvi” from a much more accusatory and inflammatory (not to mention WRONG) title of “Traitors Amongst us? blah blah blah”
Dual citizenship of this guy is a hooooooooooo biiiiigggg problem but the fvcking chechens and uzbeks are MOOOZLUM BROOOZZZERS who must be catered to and allowed to screw Pakistan in the arse because they’re fighting some dumba$$ “jihad” … to what purpose,,, god only knows. But I’m supposed to trust the judgement of some dumb fvckwit beardo who has NO education (NOT EVEN DARS-E-NIZAMI) but he feels qualified to be a Qazi AND jallaad at the same time and if some actual aalim-e-deen dares to correct this dog, he shoots that aalim anyways.
I protest against this Klashnikov Islam!
Traitors amongst us? oh nooooo! not them beardo’s … they’re the ones who will “protect us” (apparently from their zionist 100 layer deep handler networks — for whose attack they provide justification and pretext)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH F*CKING HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
@ FahadAfridiAnd “massacre” at lal masjid? Very disappointing to read mullah inspired comments from you
not a matter of inspired , i am far from mullah or anything like this , but dont u think that lal masjid was a massacre , unfortunately mullahs are singing faiz and jalib now a days
I suggest all of you, its not our responsiblity to prove someone traitor or patriotic, just leave it to Allah. Whenever someone died as a muslim we should just pray for him/her that may Allah forgive him and leave his case to Allah. On the other side i want to show the double standards of our people. When some General died everybody started worrying about him and you people start multiple threads on him and specially for their daughters. Did you people ever started some thread for the person died in our tribal areas????? Did you ask any of their son or daughters to come and share. Answer is NOOO because we have double standards….The people of tribal areas are our brother and sisters as a muslim and we never condemn their killings. Even Daughter of Gen Alvi was saying that we should kill the people in tribal areas if you will see previous thread. And some of my brothers here are also saying we should kill our own brothers…. i will ask WHY??????? Does islam teach this thing that we should kill our own countrymen or own brothers just on the wish of westerners???? I am very very sad at this moment that our enemies are creating differences between Army and civilians. We can send our Aircraft to bombard our own houses in Swat and tribal areas.. Where many innocent civilians who doesnot have any link to Alqaida or taliban got killed. Our own Airforce is killing innocent people. And if you have seen Capital talk episode in which Imran khan bring a person whose relatives got killed and his daughter lost her legs. Do u condemns these acts by our beloved Army or Airforce or not????? Do you still want to salute our own Army or Airforce who are killing on people??? CAn you give me one example in civilized world where Army or Airforce bombard their own areas and kill their own civilians??????? Do u have any feeling for half a million people who are spending life in miserable condition in tents because they cant go to their homes which are bombarded by our beloved ARmy??? My purpose is not to create hatred against PAk Army or Airforce but to show you the true picture. We are going towards civil war and we are fully supporting our enemies agenda. Our army should immediately stop operations in tribal areas otherwise the consequences will be dangerous. I hope we will understand and make some policy by ourself for ourself.
Another gem by “lofty”:
Wow! And then people get offended as to why this group of craven, insensitive, MENTAL RETARDS is referred to as “Beardo’s”.
So, let’s see, you have such ” great regards for the feelings of a daughter who loved her dad so much”, that you ask her about a freaking affair that her dead father was supposedly having (according to your esteemed self). In the same vrucking sentence!
Wow, with caregivers like these gentle souls, who really needs adversaries???
Obviously, only a man of giant brain size and extraordinary intellect such as yourself could ask such a pertinent question. I mean, why expect THE ACTUAL DAUGHTER of a dead man to know more than some random internet troll who likes to call himself “Lofty” ???
Get a life! Please!
@ patriotic pakistan ,
thanks for this post , wish everyone get some lesson out of it
It will be very interesting to find out who was the writer of original article “Traitors among us..”.
Hello Administrator you there?????
@GoTK
I am really indebted to you, thanks again…..
Another gem :
but
But
haha … I wrote earlier
It is amazing :
1. that the people who would have no problems in believing that this army can nuke them ,
2. who would have no problem in believing that this army can burn the innocent girls with phosphorus bombs in Lal Masjid , 3. Those “liberals” who believe that this army can rape 90,000 women in Bangladesh ,
4. Those “liberals” who believe that this army can sell their own mothers for the money ,
5. Those “liberals” who believe that the army is killing innocent kids in Waziristan , selling people to United States.
6. Those people who believe that this army killed Benazir Bhutto leader of the several of those liberals.
These liberals have problems in believing that the “Mumbai attacks were done by the ISI”.
Problem is not that ISI did the Mumbai attacks or not , problem is that there are people who believe that ISI can not do these attacks because it hurts their patriotism.
@ Ghost of TK
I was just curious but you are right I should not have asked this question. I realised this when I had already posted my message. Atleast “beardos” have the courage to accept and learn from their errors.
@all
“aur Jahilon ki baat par Khamoshi Aqal ki Zakat hay”
@nota
No one says “General’s Daughter”–Your line of thinking is very class conscious.
There are few reasons for my change of stance besides his daughter being here.
The first article on Pk Politics gives a horrible picture of this family.
We were told General Alvi sister married to some anti Islam Hindu fascist–My initial reaction was this family is madar pidar azad like Salman Taseer but then his daughter clarify that Alavi dumped his sister since then–That shows some God Fearing character of Mr. Alavi–In my way of thinking God Fearing counts alot perhaps thats not the case with u.
I thought no one hate Mush more than I do but I think ur claim is bigger than mine–sadly ur tongue is not where ur heart is–For this reason alone u should have good views about Alvi.
He was not buddy of Mush–He was sacked by Mush with impeding benefits & disgrace thats ur definition of Buddy.
Now we learn he was a zealous soldier perhaps he tried to do his job with perfection & zeal that does not mean he had anything to do with motives of job.
An Army Officer can not survive in Army unless he do what he is told.
Please elaborate following lines(NEWS)
“I sure hope you are not suggesting “whatever” includes accepting to do illegal acts, like slaughtering innocents, overthrowing governments, threatening the CJ, etc.”
@ lofty
dont call them liberal fascist brigade as they dont seem to like the word. its better to refer to them as the Baboo Brigade.
im sure they wont object to being named after their masters whom they look upto.
dear mehvish we can under stand ur pain, u losed your brave father no doubt he was a brave man and he loved his country and army.For him all his life was pak Army .If he was coward or triater he may not lived in Pakistan any more.God bless u.
I have served a sensitive government institute. I wonder how a dual national got his way into pak army and continued upto a senior post. Pak army institutes always discouraged the people who have dual nationlaity or even if their wives are from other nationality. One bitter truth is there , these dual nationalist are never loyal and patriotic to our country . Take the example of Pee Pee Pee ambassador Haqqani in USA who has usa nationality and sometimes it seems he is actually USA ambassador in Paksiatn embassy. Same way General Alvi letter to british paper clealry tells that, where actually his loayalities were…. If benazir wrote a letter to USA officials, there is no surprise in it because we know that she was actually coming to pakistan after deal with musharraf and with the guarantee of usa. I also want to condemn all the people including generalists, politicians , anchor persons who call “shaheed” to such western agents..like benazir bhutto.
@Traffic Says:
“dont call them liberal fascist brigade as they dont seem to like the word. its better to refer to them as the Baboo Brigade.”
Baboo Brigade…
. I appreciate.
creative and nice work
@ghayoor
Ghayoor, you will soon be consider and label as the member of beardoo brigade from a “lecturer” and “comentrator” (babooo brigade)on this forum.
@Ghost TK
“Because I’m sure someone is going to quote me “Hazrat” Muavia now to tell me how it is okay to piss on a deadbody n all.”
No Comment
@ghayoor
“I have served a sensitive government institute.”
Was this KMC or ISI? Both are very “sensitive” and completely useless.
@nota,
“Actually I was questioning if any “arabs and chechens” were killed or captured. I am not asking for pictures but confirmation of the these “foreigners” from a sourse besides ISPR (A highly unreliable — or should I say lying sacks of sh!t — source for truth. If Alavi was indeed targeting the right people, I really have no issues with that. But I just don’t buy the “every deat vietnamese is a dead ‘VC’” lie.”
Well, I don’t know since I was not with Alavi’s troops when he was in Angoor Adda. But I do have acquaintances from the nearby region and I also have also read news reports indicating that the dead and captured were foreigners and their local supporters. Jihadis were very angry after these events. And I would rather shoot myself in the head than quote ISPR as a source. And we all know that Arabs and others were captured in Pakistan and sent to Gitmo. They didn’t get their by flying on a magic carpet. So I’m using common sense based on all the circumstantial evidence available, because it’s the best I can do.
“Yes, I know “Alavi was out of the army when lal masjid happened” and I only brought it up in reference to Mush’s, SSG’s and the Army’s — three things very much associated with Alavi — role in it. Hardly a “tangent” as it did have a huge role in setting my perception about the Army. It proved to me our army was capable of wholesale slaughter of our very own, be they young girls or whatever…”
Your perception of army changed after lal masjid????? Really? That’s just sad. Were you unaware of history of East Pakistan civil war, Baloch insurgency, Afghan war, MQM riots, Kashmir insurgency, creation of Taliban, Kargil misadventure etc.?
And the words “wholesale slaughter” is taken right out of a jihadi newspaper and inaccurately describes lal masjid saga. But I don’t want to open that pandora’s box right now.
@kafka8
See what I mean?
@TK
How long are you going to be fixated on “BJ” ?
“I do hope you took the time to quote me properly and didn’t do a lazy job like the last time when you misled other venerable posters into thinking I said all that in one paragraph.”
It was more out of laziness and the fact that electricity keeps going away every few minutes so I am having to rush (I did put in the “,” and thought that would be enough). The words I quoted were from that topic alone and a quick scroll by the reader would have eliminated the confusion. So big of you to try and twist it — twice — into suggesting I was trying to deceive people.
But enough said (by me) on this. I’ll stick with what I stated and you can go on cursing or whatever you call it as long as you want…
@FahadAfridi
Briefly, “news reports indicating that the dead and captured were foreigners and their supporters” have ALL been quoting ISPR. You won’t find a single independent source stating that.
Regarding that perception issue I should have used the word “reinforced” or “brought back to active memory” or something…
@nota: alright, I’ll give it a rest. Although, admittedly, I never understood the extra twisting of the nick because your arguments are usually pretty devastating themselves…
Let’s just say it’s my utter disgust for c*cksuckers…;)
I guess you know how I feel then!…:)
@GoTK
So BJ is still on, did I tell you the fvcking bastard family background , whose father-in-law (the air vice marshall teaches (guess who??) how to do the BJ to son-in-law….
Let me tell in advance that this is my utter disgust for all the SOBs who are hypocrites….
I must say I am extremely worked up
…
@admin
…
I deliberately kept the word bastard to in the post to be caught it in moderation… I must say if this bastard (nota) still use bad words against me then I am bound to return in the same coin
teach him in his own language….
@GoTK
… and it is only who could stop him…..
So is BJ stil on??? BTW this is first time stopped giving BJ (nick) to me
hahaha….
@BJ
“So BJ is still on, did I tell you the fvcking bastard family background , whose father-in-law (the air vice marshall teaches (guess who??) how to do the BJ to son-in-law….”
Actually your mama gave me my first BJ. But I paid her Rs 10 — the asking price — so it was no favor….
[...] Re: Gunmen kill retired general in Rawalpindi shooting [/b]Daughter
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/urdu/2008/12/post_393.html
Rebel Says:December 20th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
comment-top Hi Mehvish,Accept our condolences …………..REBEL typical & orthodox JEWISH name in real terms only JEWS CHRISTIANS & HINDUS can deliver condolences.
Dear Ms. Mehvish Alavi,
I am a soldier from the border state. I have been tracking the news of your father since he was gunned. I wanted to reach you to compliment you for being the bravest child of such a brave father. This world is getting decreased of leaders like your father who supremely commands the honesty, dedication, and loyalty from all ranks below. I sincerely can feel how he would have felt when you asked him about his father’s (your grandpa’s) age. Maybe the reason being, I have met such leaders in my own life. Something in me wants to envy you for being the tough kid by receiving such a leader in your life. But I guess someone was very happy with you to have bestowed this father to you in this life. God bless you for receiving such a special gift in your life as your papa.
Want you to know, that soldiers have only one religion that they follow: soldiery. Being part of that fraternity, I salute his bravery, and his supreme courage to take on the system single-handedly. His killers will go to grave knowing in their life that they have eliminated one of the finest warriors; and that by doing this, they have performed a cowardly act. That will be their only punishment.
Kindly take care, and may god be with you.
Regards.
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