Things seem to be coming to a head. Despite continuing claims by President Zardari that the coalition was there to stay, he is reportedly pursuing PML(Q) for their full support in attempts to sideline PML(N). Things in Punjab are certainly “looking ugly” with the Governor and CM at loggerheads. Jang reports Zardari stating “If I can make some one a CM, I certainly can send them home as well!”
Nawaz Sharif certainly has picked up the rhetoric. After expressing concern over lack of government’s writ due to which the country was presenting the look of a failed state, he followed it today by stating “Parliament was being turned into concubine” by Zardari, adding that every indicator of Charter of Democracy stood erased.
This affair lasted too long. In the first place NS/PML-N should not have reverted their decision to boycott the elections. Secondly they expected too much from a party of crooks and thirdly they waited a lot to see the changes. After all PML-N has come to senses and realised that there is NO hope in ZPP. They will continue to present different “modalities” as excuses for not performing. The country is in a very delicate and dangerous situation and still we see no sign of hope.
“Deer aye durust aye”….Better letter than never. Let’s see some real opposition to the ZPP incompetent bunch of Bhutto worshippers.
NS shud either get the Muslim leagues united or atleast get rid of q-league forward bloc by getting them re-elected in order to secure Punjab.I am sure the majority of forward bloc in Punjab can easily get re-elected and hence NS can easily shed any chances of insecurity in Punjab.
Being in a safe position in Punjab, PML can be no more blackmailed by PPP and they can somehow get rid of Zuban-e-BeTaseer as well.
@feeneebi
Salman Taseer is there to put “Governer Raj” in Punjab if forward bloc of PML-Q moves towards PML-N. USA and liberal establishment (pro-Musharraf) wants PML-N out of power in all the cities, districts, villages and localities of Pakistan. So that they could enforce Bhuttoism (destroy Pakistan) in Pakistan using NRO to twist the arm of Asif Ali Zardari (AAZ).
Shahbaz Sharif is doing pretty good job in punjab. What the heck is wrong with salman taseer. PPP in center has completely failed to bring about any change in country. If we were going to have 10 percent in president house with all the powers intact, what was wrong with Musharraf. Musharraf, although not elected, was much better than Zardari.
Meanwhile, India gets ready to create “New Facts on the Ground”.
I think what the indians are upto is this, they’re going to pretend the attack is going to come to Karachi, but the thrust is going to be Kashmir. They’re going to try to cut kashmir off before the ceasefire. Create new facts on the ground and try to see if they can keep most of it by co-ercing the Obama administration.
Pakistan Army is busy in FATA, the Tribesmen are fighting for their lives in FATA, and a huge threat has been removed from India’s table just by this work of RAW and our own nalaaiqi .
Plus the Israelis on the ground in Kashmir should also have been a point of protest on Pakistan’s side, but no-one really raised a fuss.
I think this whole ambassador meeting is also a heads up to everyone in foreign office (they have one) and diplomatic corps. on how to spin the indian attack once it’s underway. Pakistani ambassadors will be providing protocol for a ZulJinah named Bilawal.
This is my feeling. I think they will also try to attack Rawal Dam and that is why they worked that whole training scenario in there.
Chips seem to be lined up. If there is an attack, Zardari will declare emergency in Punjab and send the govt packing until the end of hostilities. He will say “it is only suspended” but will drag it for another year like he dragged CJ and other issues.
also, if they’re talking about Nuke scenarios, it only means one thing, they’re upping the pressure on Pak. the thing is, let’s see who blinks. It’s been Zardari and company who’ve been doing the blinking so far.
But miracles DO happen.*
I don’t know why, but I’m really attracted to this paranoid scenario right now!
*: in your dreams b!tch! hahahaha!
Amazing analysis by someone who for sure is not “Beardo”
Kashmir is done with–would be a new ground reality.
@lofty
“Musharraf, although not elected, was much better than Zardari”
You serious? Musharraf and Zardari are the same scum. Both are unelected dictators with “rakhail” parliaments, presiding over a sham democratic setup. How can one be better than the other?
Congress will go to war with Pakistan, may be full scale war. I am afraid that Pakistan will chicken out, surrender Kashmir to India, NWFP to NATO and nukes to UN. That is why NRO-PPP is in the power.
@jazoo: Are you offended by “Beardo” because it rhymes with Weirdo? Thanks to your jihadi friends, we’ll lose kashmir. Nothing new, because every loss inflicted on Pakistan has been by two groups. Corrupt Jurnails and their ReUsable Condoms: Jihadi Beardo’s.
Sorry. but I didn’t start this discussion.
@Lofty
“what was wrong with Musharraf. Musharraf, although not elected, was much better than Zardari.”
How wrong you are. They are two sides of the same coin
Also, here is a new picture of Ajmal Kasab. Maybe you can recognize him from “your days together at the academy”…;)
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videoshow/3875794.cms
While India raises more booga-booga (750-kg RDX smuggled into India?), US tells Pakistan “Don’t try to sweep Mumbai under the carpet”
PML-N & Q & MQM — Bring Qazi and Imran in via by-elections to shut them the hell up and get them in a real national govt.
Get rid of Zardari and the nepotistic culture he has taken to new heights in PPP.
You remember how bilawal “bhutto” zardari sounds like a retarded 3 year old when speaking in Urdu/Sindhi (does he even speak those languages?). Now listen to India’s version of hereditary politician, Rahul Ghandoo.. I mean Gandhi… I’m sorry.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Rahul_raises_plight_of_another_Kalawati/videoshow/3875680.cms
Is it too much to ask that our leaders (political & military & religious) also make a bare minimum of sense? have some qualifications OTHER THAN c*cksucking on their resumes?
@Ghost of TK
Jihadi were the only force fighting on Kashmiri front forcing India to consider it as little as much an issue.
Once ur corrupt & Ghaddari politicians continue the policy of Mush Bush & Chenny to cut this only resistance to India–Now India is free & has no resistance to claim whole Kashmir & u r also free to point ur finger anywhere but away from u.
I am not offended by ur Beardo thing–I am entertained.
BTW I really was impressed by ur analysis.
Anyone could become a good analyst when he use minimum curse words.
From the above head post:
“Jang reports Zardari stating “If I can make some one a CM, I certainly can send them home as well!””
t seems like that after all the split has seen day light due to threats from AZ to PML-N about their supremacy (CM post) in Punjab. Had it not happened then may be there would no split…..just wondering.
IF you look on the canvas of Pakistani Politics, a leader with least doubtful character is NS and his clan. I am not saying they are clean but in comparison with the rest they are our best hope. IK has a problem with his approach, he is trying to win votes in a country which is predominantly a follower (slave?) mentality and it will require a shock of great magnitude to weaken the chains and to awake them. Though media has penetrated the masses it is still a long way to shake the minds of ordinary people, people who really should matter and could matter if they could break the sleep. IK has to penetrate the masses and that is not on the horizon any sooner.
Till that time come, we need to choose best among he crooks and NS fits the bill.
I do not have a soft corner for Musharraf. I, in fact, believe he should be hanged for violating constitution and lal masjid massacre. PPP, unfortunately, has not changed anything in Pakistan. President is retaining same powers, prime minister and parliment are puppets, army operation in tribal areas has accelerated, lawlessness and inflation are at peak. If we compare the Musharraf era with present circumstances; he was not as bad as Zardari.
Guys have you watched last episode of “off the record”. There we have top intellectual of PPP, Mr. Jataio. His answers were so convincing that I have decided to abandon my oppostion of PPP if they make Jatoi prime minister of our country.
we are not capable of ruling the country… let this Indian M****r F****r take our country till we find a suitable leader. PERIOD
I dont believe that NS will ever wanna lose his Punjab govt. They have clearly nothing to play with, empty pockets, no cards to play with. Zaradari is a very shrewd politician, he has clearly put NS in a politically hopeless position.
Even the comments by NS on Ajmal Qassab and Failed state were clearly an act of desperation! PPP has existence in all 4 provinces but NS doesnt even exist outside Punjab boundaries.
So I dont think despite what they (PML-N) are saying they are not going to quit anytime soon, they will just carry on saying this until the election time comes!
But something that is interesting and is quite hot nowadays is the formation of a Bangladesh “Technocrat” style “Qaumi Mufahmat” govt in Pakistan. Not sure whether its just rumour or the establishment is actually working on this!
Ch. Nisar’s latest salvo:
Leaders lack strength to unite nation
its good for PML(N) because why PML(N)make dirty by keeping themselves with zardari league …PML(N) must join PTI imran khan if they want to survive in future
@ NAB
PLEASE DONT FORGET HE HAD 2/3 MAJORITY IN 1998
First incident of firing at the LOC
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/dec2008-daily/22-12-2008/update.htm#100
I feel that it is only matter of time we will be invaded by Indian forces from east and UN forces from west. My father used to tell me that Allah has made Pakistan for a reason and He will protect Pakistan and i believed that naively. Allah has made Pakistan for the reason but He will not protect it if we are not willing to do so and it is clear that we are not. What do we expect from Allah when we are corrupt till the core. We have lost our identity and we are willing to let people like Taseer and Zardari rule over us. Rulers are the reflection of population and i think they are true reflection of who we really are.
I thought that we as Muslim nation has hit the bottom but i am very wrong. We are exactly what Jews of Hazart Musa AS were. We want someone to give us food in platter and go and fight war for us. Well we will meet the same doom if we don’t correct ourselves and now i realize that we are far away from this.
Maybe it is war that we need. We have lost that vigor that fire which was burning before partition. Maybe we need occupation ,like spoiled child needs punishment.
We can still avert that but not having Zardari and his goons there at the throne. How ignorant is the this nation of it’s eminent destruction. Maybe they want it too.
NAB says
“But something that is interesting and is quite hot nowadays is the formation of a Bangladesh “Technocrat” style “Qaumi Mufahmat” govt in Pakistan. Not sure whether its just rumour or the establishment is actually working on this!”
I just want to correct “Qaumi Muhahmat Govt” to “QAUMI MUNAFIQAT GOVT” in Pakistan
@BlackHawk
PLEASE DONT FORGET HE HAD 2/3 MAJORITY IN 1998
Who is denying it? but right now, in my humble opinion, he is literally trapped in a cell. PML-N biggest problem in my view is that they have no power anywhere outside of Punjab and even in Punjab not as powerful as before. I think they should focus on national politics and try to gain some strength in other provinces as well.
I am touched by sincere emotions of Gilimitti.
His father & many fathers like him may be right that God will protect this country.
We are ruled by corrupt minority–we are not corrupt nation though we are weak to overthrow the corrupt minority–we should pay for our weakness.
The good thing about Momin is he never lose–he do the good & leave the result on Almighty–If its written that India will invade & disintegrate us then be it put ur trust in God & something good will come out of it.
The nation is well represented here–I doubt anyone of us has a corrupt background–Yes we are weak in action because we are weak in conviction–we have put our faith in super powers not in Allah.
The best option for NS is to join forces with PTI. Otherwise his destiny could also be that of ZPP….political suicide.
The world is really afraid of Pakistan army’s nuclear blackmail , they(army) have successfully used the nuclear black mail twice once during the Kargil war when they made the moves to use the nuke in Kashmir and then in 2000 when they planned to nuke Sind in case Indian forces cross Sind borders..
Pakistan army desperately wants to make amends with Mullahs , after the Lal Masjid fiasco mullahs and army got into real fight and Mullahs were able to hit army several times , the dilemma for the Pakistan army is to keep US away , as I said before the elections that they are ready to accept some levels of survival (including letting go the government in Pakistan, sharing the booty with civilians) however they won’t commit suicide. Therefore important thing to is to keep US away while getting into bed with Mullahs again… The nuclear blackmail to India they consider as the best option to keep US away from Pakistan territory…. the relevant point however is that whether Mullahs can be moved aways from the Afghanistan back into Kashmir.
Mumbai massacre was sort of a rendezvous of two estranged lovers meeting again at a familiar place. It has already washed away a lot of misgivings between Mullahs and Army , one can see this even at pkpolitics. But matters are very complicated in Afghanistan and FATA, Mullahs have much more misgivings touching the levels of hatred against the army. And reading the “story of General Alvi” it seems that there is a “strong” group in army who wants to settle the question of Mullahs too…
On the other hand, the other relevant question is , Will India give in yet again to the nuclear blackmail?? It seems so. There is no doubt the solution to the problem of Pakistan lies within Pakistan , it is only people of Pakistan who can correct this , the world can only help people of Pakistan.
@Pejamistri
“The world is really afraid of Pakistan army’s nuclear blackmail , they(army) have successfully used the nuclear black mail twice once during the Kargil war when they made the moves to use the nuke in Kashmir and then in 2000 when they planned to nuke Sind in case Indian forces cross Sind borders..”
What is your source?
I thought peja was a good pen–that stinks
“Allah will protect Pakistan” I agree HE has protected Pakistan despite our leaders and our own efforts.
Do we deserve better then Zardari. No we don’t. We stood in long lines to put our thumb prints on PPP candidates. We definitely don’t deserve better, I insist.
@ nota
where are you? BJMadari has started speaking out of his a$$ again. now he’s claiming the army threatened to “nuke Sindh” if India crossed the border. hes such a loser who finds comfort in self-pity as a Sindhi. please take care of him.
It seems like that Piplyas have decided to defend the Indian stance just like Ayaz Mir claimed in a recent debate program (CT) with yet another fanatic piplya named Qa(f)ira. Pejamistri is no exception in this case. He was already a doubtful character, but the above stupidity maybe exceeds all the previous stupid, incompetent and dishonest uttering by this anti-Pakistan element. Shame on him and the likes of him!
@ Shirkuh
they were always a treacherous bunch, the more we get to know their true feelings the more we can recognize the venom that they have against Pakistan and its people. you can easily mistake BJMadari’s statements for those of an RSS or Bajrangi spokesman. these pipliyas’ venom against Pakistan is shocking.
Let me put you guys in a situation!!!
Had there been PPP in opposition instead PML(N), how would they have behaved on this time of crisis?
My answer is: They must have approached US and India to tell them, listen we are better than this govt (of PML-N) in fulfilling your demands, so support us to topple this Govt. and help us to be in. We will finish this ISI stuff.
@PEJA MANTRI JI
The world is really afraid of Pakistan army’s nuclear blackmail…
And what do you mean by ‘World’!
This is the same Nuclear Blackmail that has protected us from the FACIST HINDUstan designs against us.
Put your house in order before talking about helping Pakistan. Look at the freedom movements in India, hindu extremists burning christians and Muslims first. Forget about Akhand Hindustan consisting of India, Nepal, Paksitan, Srilanka and Malidves and save India first.
and A sincere advice to my Indian friends would be: DONT LET YOUR LEADERS DRAG YOUR COUNTRY INTO IMPERIALIST DESIGNS OF US. you will definitely suffer later on if not immediately!
Allah has no promise to protect Pakistan or any other Muslim country, land or nation. Pakistan is no more sacred to HIM than Bait-Ul-Muqadis or many others like that – history, lives of Prophets are full of such examples.
Allah’s promise is “”Allah does not change the condition of a people unless they themselves change their condition.”
First and most important “We need to stop injustice in this country at all level”. All others issues are directly or indirectly revolves around INJUSTICE. (pick issue of your choice and see how it relates itself to injustice)
Hazrat Ali (RA) said, “A society can survive with kufr, but not injustice”.
Isn’t it amazing that the people who claim that Pakistan Army used chemical weapons (phosphorous bombs) against the innocent little babes of Jamia Hafza and burned them alive , have doubts about nuclear blackmail by the same army and that too against their arch-rival.
Isn’t it also amazing that the people who claim that Pakistan army is killing their own people in Swat , Waziristan and all the rest of FATA have doubts about Pakistan army blackmailing the world with their nuclear arsenal…
Let me put couple of questions
Why would army use the chemical weapons against the Lal Masjid girls??
Why would army kill kids, old men , civilian etc. in Waziristan??
Any answers???
That’s why I call these people hypocrites who think they are more patriotic than others , at least ahmedquraishis of this world don’t criticize thier “own” army…
@ BJMadari
its not about what Pakistan army is capable of doing, we want some source for the $hit that you’re vomiting out of your mouth. just because the army has killed our own people doesnt mean you can get away with whatever fantasies you dream about all day and expect others to believe you. we are all waiting for some source about Moshe threatening to nuke Sindh in 2000 if India crossed.
p.s. this has got to be the most absurd BS ive ever heard in my life. a country threatening its enemy that it will nuke its own territory instead of the other’s if it invades hahaha!!! the mental level of this guy is astounding, and yet the Baboo Brigade claims to be “intellectually superior”
@pejamistri December 22nd, 2008 at 5:56 pm
ahhhaaa…A newly “friendly fire” from Baboo Brigade.
.
Good to see that a ” baboo” is supporting zardariiii h…..mi’s stance on mumbai drama
These pppplia and baboo brigade forget that even voices from India itself are comming that there must be hold inquiy on killing of Hemant Karkare but these pppllieeeias are “bandar” like friends who claim of friend but are doing job for their gods
We might have rotten eggs like you in the army, but that doesn’t mean that we will start collaborating with the enemy. That will off course be the end of Pakistan.
Both ISI and the army is a necessity for Pakistan, but they should both act within the boundaries of the law – which they are not doing now. Special thanks to shaheedoN ke party for not doing anything on the law and order issue. They ruled Pakistan for many years without doing anything significant for the rule of law (They were satisfied to just be leaders without a vision). Why? Because they themselves also would be accountable if rule of law had been implemented. Every time they were ousted they had the usual excuses for not performing. In reality they were a bunch of incompetent and corrupt “politicians”.
Agreed that our GHQ is not in a good shape, but those despicable Hindus who have been committing crimes against humanity by killing tens of thousands of Muslims living under the Indian rule and tens of thousands Muslim Kashmiri brothers apparently doesn’t bother a low life like you. It is not the Muslims that suffer in India. It is also Sikhs and Christians.
I will repeat my previous claim:
“ChaneneN lote nouN kandey aye ke tere wich chaik aye”
ZPP=MQM
@pejamistri
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:59 pm
So what the f..ck is wrong if Army and Paksitan is blackmailing world to safe pakistan from war. If this blackmailing can safe Pakistan from war, then what is wrong in this?
This is a clash between the followers of Jinnah and the followers of Zia. The deep seated ideological faultlines are on a move again. The tectonic plates are inching slowly but surely towards a collision. It is a mutually in-coexistable situation. It is a difference of world views. On the one hand are those who believe in evolutionary democracy and federalism and uphold constitutionalism, they are inherently anti establishment (read anti GHQ), anti mulla and are progressives, I call them Jinnahists. Oppossing them are Ziaists, the intolerent, bloodthirsty, obscurantist mullah and their godfather Generals who spread hatred and intolerence in the name of Islam and shamelessly equate their personal and institutional interests with national security.
@tharapolitics
First time I felt that someone from “beardo brigade” have “brain” too.. well that was surprising…
Let me answer your very good question….
That’s the problem they are not using nuclear blackmail to stop the war but to start the war. BTW you did not ask me how Pakistan army nuclear blackmailed during the kargil war , if you find the answer than you will know how the nuclear blackmail can be used to start the war
…
For the safety and security of Pakistan, it’s crucial for the parliament to remove Zardari and transfer all the the powers to the parliament body. we also need a new prime minister who is a veteran politician and a true patriot. This imbicile Zardari and his incompetent cabinet are taking Pakistan in a wrong direction and therefore, these nuckle heads need to be removed immediately.
In order to acomplish the above goals, I suggest the following action.
PML-N, PML-Q and all the independent parliamentarians should join hands and call a special session of parliament to select a new prime minister and replace Zardari with some one who is capable to perform his duties with in the confinement of the constitution. Mr Zardari is a psychopath and a pathological liar and he should not be allowed to serve as president. He is out their to destroy Pakistan and It’ incumbant upon us to do some thing before it’s too late.
I would like to appeal to Mr Nawaz Sharif to take a lead in uniting the Muslim leagures.
@pejamistri
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:29 pm
“That’s the problem they are not using nuclear blackmail to stop the war but to start the war. BTW you did not ask me how Pakistan army nuclear blackmailed during the kargil war , if you find the answer than you will know how the nuclear blackmail can be used to start the war
…
”
Baboo brigade’s member raised good question but missed the scenerio which are totally different in two situations, Kargil war and Mumbai Drama. Hell of difference. If you find the difference between these two, and if you think above Baboo Brigade, Liberal Fascist and PPPLIIAA Mentality then sure you will find the answer of your own question.
@tharapolitics
I got excited mistakenly …..
False flag
May be you can try again
how Pakistan army nuclear blackmailed during the kargil war?
Hint: Nawaz Sharif went to see Clinton to stop the war , which already started … Clinton showed him the pictures of nuclear assets , and the infamous conversation between the two generals…
But I read your first message later which says :
haha.. that’s why I said false flag….
@pejamistri Says:
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:48 pm
My comment “These pppplia and baboo brigade forget that even voices from India itself are comming that there must be hold inquiy on killing of Hemant Karkare ” was only indicating you pppliaaaa and babooo brigade mentality to giving lecture pakistan but not to speak a word to your “gods-india and usa”.
Your second point
“how Pakistan army nuclear blackmailed during the kargil war?
Hint: Nawaz Sharif went to see Clinton to stop the war , which already started … Clinton showed him the pictures of nuclear assets , and the infamous conversation between the two generals…
“(it will be intrested if you give reference)
is again mismatching between two situations. If you are claiming that Mumbai drama did by Pakistan Army, Jurrrnailsss and ISI, then you are right track to answer the situation but I don’t believe that Pakistan didn’t it. So this is hint from me, Pakistani jurnails did kargil adventure and therefore Pakistan was on backfoot, but it is not same in the case of mumbai drama… think above ppppliiiaaaa and baboo brigade mentality.
@ Baboo BJMadari
im still waiting for a source for your crazy claim that Pakistan threatened India that it will bomb Sindh if it invades and India out of love and care for the Sindhis backed off after this threat.
@ thara
ask this Baboo about sources for his crazy claims instead of arguing with him uselessly.
Nawaz Sharif has got his orders from ISI that now is the time to go on the offensive when Pakistan is under threat externally.
@Traffic
Let me first warn you that I am in no mood to allow using word BJ otherwise first I am going to give you a very nasty response which may not be very decent, therefore stop using this word…
Secondly the nuke claim was made by Ahmed Rashid in “Conversation with history” and you can search the talk on youtube, this claim was discussed on this very site those days “beardo brigade” was against the army and was blowing bombs in SSG headquarters therefore they ignored this claim. However now since they are in the bed with army again it hits them
….
It is also interesting that no beardo’s tail was hurt when I talked about “Lal Masjid’s innocent babes” killed by the “fascist” army by the “chemical weapons”
…
Shaikh Rashid , the palmist of Politicians ( Lal Hawelee wali sarkar) said rightly.
” NS is very simple( bhola) and a foolish person”.
He should have boycotted the elections along APDMA and didnt trust Benazir and Z Pee Pee. How could a corrupt person ready change himself so easily.. Zardari not only made fool to NS but also whole nation..
I wanna salute to Zardari for his wickedness.. but
he should remember that such sharpness can never sustain long….
Traffic, is it pakistan army’s nuclear doctrine to attack any invading force inside Pakistan and as part of this strategy they will let indians come into sindh and nuke them.
The advantage in the eyes of jihadi generals is 1) they can use nukes without the same level of backlash as using nukes inside india 2) sindh gets radiated.
This is well known. For jihadi generals, pakistan’s survival is not important, killing the enemy is.
@Traffic
ask this Baboo about sources for his crazy claims instead of arguing with him uselessly.
Agreed. Simply put he doesnt have any sources. His only source appear to be his own confused and cluttered mind driven by hatred against Pakistan.
Hey if he continues this shit, I think we should request SSG or ISI to take this douchebag out
correct…
but I don’t believe that Pakistan didn’t it. = but I don’t believe that Pakistan didit.
@Traffic
Let me first warn you that I am in no mood to allow using word BJ otherwise first I am going to give you a response which may not be very decent, therefore stop using this word…
Secondly the nuke claim was made by Ahmed Rashid in “Conversation with history” and you can search the talk on youtube, this claim was discussed on this very site those days “beardo brigade” was against the army and was blowing bombs in SSG headquarters therefore they ignored this claim. However now since they are in the bed with army again it hits them
….
It is also interesting that no beardo’s tail was hurt when I talked about “Lal Masjid’s innocent babes” killed by the “fascist” army by the “chemical weapons”
…
moderators out there????
With jialas you can say anything anti-army and they start considering and propagating it as an undeniable fact, no matter how ridiculous it might be. So Peja’s ridiculous statement about nuking Sindh is not surprising considering that he is a jiala.
In complete contrast to their endless hatred for the army is their unquestioning love for ZAB, BB and ZPP. No matter how strong the evidence, they will never gget themselves to condemn the PPP.
Jialas also have a great fondness for India and are willing to go to any length to suck up to it. If you want to have the Indian perspective on any issue, just talk to a jiala.
@ Baboo Mantri Jee(u prefer this name?)
that interview is one hour long, tell me at which point he claims it. and if he indeed has claimed it, then hes as crazy as you are. even india hasnt claimed the things you lunatics are cooking up in your mind against Pakistan. you are nothing more than a paranoid crazy loser who derives comfort from self-pity and cooks up fantasies about how Pakistan army or “the establishment” wants to annihilate all Sindhis. the thought that there might be more of your species is scary.
@Peja
…”
“I talked about “Lal Masjid’s innocent babes” killed by the “fascist” army by the “chemical weapons”
Hey just knock it off okay.
“Lal Masjid’s innocent babes”
“Babes”, is this the word that you would also consider using for your own sister? RESPECT!
@ NAB
he probably would, pipliyon ki beghairati ki koi intaha nahi hoti. for these animals, even those small pious girls are “babes” which are to be killed in cold blood, as the massacre of Lal Masjid was supported by the lanati BB.
@NAB
… read the dictionary….
Not only my own sister but I may use it for your sister too
You s3x starved beardo brigade ba$tards never come out of the s3xual fantasies, some using BJ as if they miss one … and now you fantasizing about “b!bes”….
And don’t try to threaten me I have seen many mofos like you …
BC yeah kissi kaay bap kaa forum naheen hay, plz dont use ur family language here.. Message is for all BCs.
Thanks
Administrative action taken and Article 6 applied.
Admin
@admin
Since the abbr. BJ has been defined here , therefore I would request it should be banned for use.
Secondly you may delete my earlier post at December 22nd, 2008 at 11:28 pm
@Traffic
I prefer my own nick , as I use the same nick that you preferred while registering on this site… you can use the terms in a general sense , but while addressing directly use the nick that one prefers….
As I said this interview was discussed here on this site , the mention of nukes is at 34:00 minutes….
By the way I just found you are the same who was quoting “sayings” of Mullah Muhammad Omer (R.A) ??
My apologies
@ Baboo peja
“By the way I just found you are the same who was quoting “sayings” of Mullah Muhammad Omer (R.A) ??”
you retard, always give a reference before you make a claim. now prove where i said it, otherwise admit you are a retard who doesnt think before he speaks.
@Traffic
haha….. I thought I gave earlier the reference about the “nuke Sind” story …
Here is the next for your pleasure…
http://pkpolitics.com/2007/11/01/live-with-talat-1-november-07/#comment-15003
haha….
So peace 
BTW after this it is useless to keep talking to you
admin..
pls check and moderate the language used by Babooo brigade, ppppplllieeeeeeeee headed by TK and his rangeeela wazeer peepeepeejamastri .
It will be very sad affair if PPP and PMLN split at this critical time but all the blame goes to PPP. Unfortunately they betrayed NS on every issue, the real motive of Zardari was to grab the post of presidency and then turn the tables in Punjab using Salman Taseer around September or October but the game plan did not materialized. Shebaz Sharif is really really working hard in the province and only Punjab looks better in whole of the country.
It will benefit NS a lot if he goes into opposition. This govt. has shown too much weaknesses and Indian govt. realizing that a man of Zardari and Gillani calibre are the best to pressurize. Remember they used the same tactics in May 1998 after conducting nuclear tests and were threatening Pakistan with an attack. Only when Pakistan replied tit for tat then Vajpai visited Pakistan for better relations. We do need a strong leadership this time of history. Imran Khan and Nawaz Sharif joining hands will be the best for our future.
@ Baboo peja
and where did i write (r.a.) next to mullah omer? and so what if i quoted him, why do you have such a problem with it? and what has it got to do with your crazy fantasies about nuking of Sindh. just cos another moron ahmed rashid said it doesnt make it true you loser.
@Traffic
, apologies if it hurted you 
… BTW just for my knowledge what other suffix one can use with the name of “ameer-ul-moomneen”?
R.A was my invention , I never said you quoted it but I am amazed you are angry about R.A , I believe R.A is the suffix used for the “good moozlem” , I though Mullah Omer was “ameer-ul-moomneen” therefore he must be “good moozlem” , I was trying to appease you
I have no problem you quoting “ameer-ul-moomneen”, but I may have problem when you don’t act upon the “ameer-ul-moomneen” commands , you see as a “good moozlem” you should not ignore the commands of “ameer-ul-moomneen”….
Also it has nothing to do with the “nuke Sind” story… I was just looking for the reference for you and found the great saying of Hazrat Mullah Muhammad Umar (Afghanistan walay ) quoted by you….
haha….
P.S. Don’t tell me you did not use “Hazrat” for Mullah Muhammad Umer” , I already know it
lets hope its not too late
They came together to save the status quo & they parted their ways to save it again.
You guys need evidence for everything & logic too, Here it goes
When they were together, they haven’t done anything for a common man.
Plz no more baungiyans to make one hero & the other zero (trap of status quo)
Agreed
@ghost of TK
I have been thinking about what you wrote earlier about India taking over Kashmir. One look at the topography of the area and I will say that even the US cannot invade that area. It is a continuation of peaks with very hostile population not to mention the Pakistan Army defensive positions. Furtheremore was reading somewhere that many thousands of Pak army jawans and officers have retired in Kashmir. The only way India can come close to successfully invading Kashmir is if they totally anihilate the PAF and then start carpet bombing. By that time I think under any scenario the Pakistan army would have hurled all of our nukes at India. What u are saying just cannot happen. It is armageddon!
No human has a perfect knowledge and God looks at our intentions not deeds, right? In other words if you intend to go for Jihad but get killed by some lunatic as soon as you set foot out of your home, you will be considered martyr.
Now, lets say, if a suicide bomber is convinced that his action is right and he blows himself up, killing many innocent people in the process, would he be considered martyr? Similarly, if a scientist considers his work to be part of his faith/jihad and builds weapons of mass destruction (as we are instructed to do in Surah Anfal) that will eventually be used to kill innocent people, would he considered martyr before God. Please note both suicide bomber and scientist are convinced what they are doing is right and they are doing it solely to achieve the pleasure the Allah. What fate would they meet on other side of life? Will they be considered martyrs before God in here after?
I understand killing of innocent people is not allowed in Islam under any circumstances. Suicide bomber and scientist, however, were not aware of this fact. What fate would they meet on other side of life? Will they be considered martyrs before God in here after? Before you comment, let me reiterate the fact that no human has perfect knowledge and can never even achieve perfect knowledge.
BI++ on the the term “Babes”:
… read the dictionary…”
“Not only my own sister but I may use it for your sister too
Classy!!! So now we know what class you come from to talk like this:
And TK. Shame on you for for going along with this AZ c*cksucker. Tells me how your “education” has helped out
@BI++ says
“Since the abbr. BJ has been defined here , therefore I would request it should be banned for use.”
Funny that the person using all sorts of curses/taunts doesn’t like it when the shoe is on the other foot and, like a little twit, yells “Mama!!!” (that is nothing new).
What is unfair is ad always obliging him.
@Admin
This is really not fair. Why is it OK for TK and BJ to spew their sh!t but when someone fires back, you come running to offer protection and remember the constitution?????
@nota: Dude, like I said before, I’m not getting in the middle of this personal feud between the two of you. What I did was just point out to you that you had been using this slang for a fellow poster, and no-one, especially the holier-than-thou crowd seemd to mind it then.
Anyways, it is NO secret that I have serious problems with @peja’s (sometimes WILD) theories. He’s entitled to them. I tried to break them down, and hopefully without getting graphically personal.
I think both of you guys are senior and well respected members of this forum and I think it is unbecoming of both of you to engage in this level of personal conflict openly.
I beg you both. For the last time. Please. Stop this!
And I’m not “going along” with him. It’s not a tag team match for me. I agree with you, I agree with others, I disagree with many and with some I disagree badly when my bullshit detector goes off. That’s all.
I think we’re all like compasses. Mine (IMO) points to the “Best Interest of Pakistani Nation”. If I feel your going in that same direction, I’m with you, if not I’m against you. But for sure, I’m not about to become part of some petty tag-team either way.
It is a waste of energies that people like you and peja are engaged in this war of attrition.
Not sure what else to say. I’m not even gonna re-read it.
Just give it a rest guy’s. You can hit each other really hard with your arguments without the need for persoanl name-calling (just my opinion).
Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine. Notice no. 3?
Pakistan’s Nuclear Doctrine would therefore essentially revolve around the first-strike option. In other words, the Pakistani government will use nuclear weapons if attacked by India even if the attack is with conventional weapons. With his experience of a graduated nuclear response, Professor Stephen P. Cohen feels that Pakistan would use what he calls an ‘option-enhancing policy’. This would entail a stage-by-stage approach in which the nuclear threat is increased at each step to deter India from attacking. These stages are as follows:
1. A public or private warning.
2. demonstration explosion of a small nuclear weapon on Pakistani soil.
3. The use of (a) nuclear weapon(s) on Pakistani soil against Indian attacking forces.
4. The use of (a) nuclear weapon(s) against critical but purely military targets on Indian soil, probably in thinly populated areas in the desert or semi-desert, causing the least collateral damage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Doctrine_of_Pakistan
Unfortunately there is only one big problem with India and the West. None of them are ready to die for a cause. The terrorists are successful because they are ready to die for the cause, they believe in. India and the West will fight a war only when they are 100 % sure that their loss will be minimum, like Bangladesh. Mission in Iraq failed, once the body bags started flying back home and 30,000 disabled for life. Those made the entire population think twice of an adventurous war. So just like the British, the West is successful in implementing a war on other country with the people of the same country fighting each other.
India and Pakistan are different. Against India the Pakistanis will be one, as they say from Khyber to Karachi. Geographically, Pakistan has a slight advantage over India in case of a nuclear war. Since the wind blow from West to East, the nuclear fall out will be on India too. If Pakistan strikes on the Western borders of India, the effect of that may go up to the Central India and in some cases as far as eastern India. If India strikes Pakistan, the nuclear fall out will be on India too. Thus India can only strike deep inside Pakistan in places like Baluchistan or absolutely Northern Pakistan.
If Pakistan decides to pull out their forces from the West and bring them to the East and end all support to the NATO forces, NATO with their supply line gone, will be left with no option but to get out from Afghanistan immediately.
USA and the West know that India has been a long time ally of Russia. Recently India signed for more nuclear Plants with Russia. Pakistan is the only country, which is standing between India and Russia, If Pakistan is disintegrated and with Iran already in the Russian block, the whole of Central Asia will most probably be gone to the block of Russia, China and India. That will be a real dominating power not only in Eurasia, but the entire world. With free flow of Oil and Gas from Russia and Iran to China and India will create a giant economic and military power. Then the small sheikhdoms of the Middle East will be facing a huge challenge to retain their kingdoms and perhaps collapse like the Shah in Iran.
It will perhaps be in the best interest of the USA and the West to enter a compromise with the Taliban and help them to get strong in Afghanistan. Pitch the Karzai, where he was before and help Pakistan eradicate the corrupt politicians to win the heart of the people.
@FahadAfridi
3. The use of (a) nuclear weapon(s) on Pakistani soil against Indian attacking forces. … wow so it is part of the doctrine, by the way Punjab borders are densely populated and the army is very compassionate with its own people therefore the use of nuclear weapons against the Indian attacking forces in Punjab will not be possible on the other hand Kashmir border is hilly terrain and Indian forces will be scattered over a large area in a small population.
Hence the best use of nuclear arsenal will be deserts of Sind where there is “some” (the remaining) population of “pee drinking” hindus, and the rest of the population does not look like muslims and Pakistani…
And I remember the “verbal diarrhea” guy giving the best proof of hindus involvement in Mumbai attacks said “Look at his (Kassab’s) face , he doesn’t look like Pakistani” ….
@peja
perhaps you are confusing valid anti-faujistanic sentiments with cold military war strategies based on possible enemy strategic plans to cut off sind/karachi from punjabistan/pakistan?? i may be wrong…
@kafka8
You have been asking this question several times how to differentiate between a “good military” and “faujinatanic forces” , it is exactly like differentiating between “good taliban” and “bad taliban” , you know how one defines “good taliban” and “bad taliban” , “bad taliban” are those which kill “you” and “good taliban” are those which kill “others”.
It sounds very “patriotic” that the “proud” army of Pakistan fighting against the “arch-enemy” and as they say “p.. drinking” hindus… However this is not true.. I’ll come back to this later…
There is another interesting aspect of this “false patriotism” , on the one hand this army is a “satanic force” , savage , barbaric and cold blooded murderers (remember Faraz’s poem “peshawar qatiloon tum sipahi nahi”), so this army burns alive “innocent girls” , bombards innocent kids in waziristan , and kills Nawab Akbar Bugti , rapes “Shazia Khalid” , abducts missing persons and commits every single crime on the earth. But the same army is transformed into “mujahid aided by the angels” against the “pee drinking” hindus , and they will themselves be angels and will fight with hindus in order to “defend” the same country against whose population they have committed all those crimes listed above. I will talk this myth too..
Third very important aspect to this “false patriotism” is that when talking about the atrocities of Pakistan Army against their own people , most of the liberals would argue that these atrocities are committed for three major reasons.
1. In order to save their rule (like Yahya , Zia and Musharraf did).
2. In order to get more money (like Zia and Musharraf did)
3. In order to keep “bloody civilians” fearful of the army (like the show of power in Balochistan , Lal Masjid etc..)
Now the army that can kill people for the sake of money , the army that can rape women for the sake of rule , the army that can burn kids/girls for the sake of instilling their fear in the hearts of people , What is wrong if the same army plan to use nukes in order to save itself from extinction….
Fourth as somebody mentioned that their may be few black sheep and we can not condemn the whole institution for this.. so few black sheep kill people , burn people , rape women and bomb villages and the “white” sheep keep quiet….
Finally your “cold military war strategies” nuking your own people did not even enter Hitler’s or Nepolean’s mind , by the way you can very well imagine why Nawaz Sharif , the “right wing” leader was so aggressive against the hiding of Kassab’s family because he know at what limits this army can reach…
So where does it end??? Do we remain under the clutches of this army forever? I believe NO , the stories like “Alvi” are coming out , the bond between Mullah and Military is slowly cracking , the politicians are in better position to deal with army than their predecessors. Slowly but surely things are changing… it may take time perhaps another generation.
Is their a quick solution , US/India getting rid of this army and giving people of Pakistan a clean country to run with democratic principles , the answer is NO , Iraq , Afghanistan is a stark example of this policy failure… they can only help us by supporting the civilian rule, remember this is in their benefit as well.
@GoTK wrote:
” Anyways, it is NO secret that I have serious problems with @peja’s (sometimes WILD) theories. He’s entitled to them. I tried to break them down, and hopefully without getting graphically personal”
PejaMistri is at best a wolf in the disguise of a lamb. Normally you have been able to expose his hidden agendas. He is an extremely low class “personality” able to deceive and cheat people on this site and everywhere else he goes (I suppose). Don’t compare him with Nota. He doesn’t deserve that, and he is NOT a respected person on this forum.
Personally, I have no doubt about your sincerity towards Pakistan. We might have our differences, but they are totally of different nature and not based on whether anyone of us is loyal towards Pakistan or not.
I also understand your term “beardo”, but I am afraid that your understanding of the term is not the same as the low class Pejamistri. Here you have been “trapped” by Pejamistri. Please try to figure out this venomous snake. He is no different from the venomous Trojan Horses/fifth column MQM people. The only difference is the ability to write in nice English. Don’t get cheated by this ability. On this point I also disagree with you and Pejamistri that one should be able to write in proper English to debate on this forum. This is totally unfair towards those brilliant minds, which are effected by dyslexia. They can be good debaters and have good and valid points, but because of dyslexia they are not able to write properly. You have sided with Pejamistri on this issue. My personal view is that you did it in good faith and without thinking about the person could possibly be affected by dyslexia.
I like your reconciliatory tone towards Nota. We are all on the same side. Please refrain from quarrelling with Nota. The same request is for Nota. Meet your enemy instead. AND THAT IS PEJAMISTRI THE VENOMOUS SNAKE!
I remember reading the theory about nuking invading Indian forces (put forward by Pejamistri on this site) in an article, where an retired Indian general told about a similar scenario.
@kafka8
You have been asking this question several times how to differentiate between a “good military” and “faujinatanic forces” , it is exactly like differentiating between “good taliban” and “bad taliban” , you know how one defines “good taliban” and “bad taliban” , “bad taliban” are those which kill “you” and “good taliban” are those which kill “others”.
It sounds very “patriotic” that the “proud” army of Pakistan fighting against the “arch-enemy” and as they say “p.. drinking” hindus… However this is not true.. I’ll come back to this later…
There is another interesting aspect of this “false patriotism” , on the one hand this army is a “satanic force” , savage , barbaric and cold blooded murderers (remember Faraz’s poem “peshawar qatiloon tum sipahi nahi”), so this army burns alive “innocent girls” , bombards innocent kids in waziristan , and kills Nawab Akbar Bugti , rapes “Shazia Khalid” , abducts missing persons and commits every single crime on the earth. But the same army is transformed into “mujahid aided by the angels” against the “p.. drinking” hindus , and they will themselves be angels and will fight with hindus in order to “defend” the same country against whose population they have committed all those crimes listed above. I will talk this myth too..
Third very important aspect to this “false patriotism” is that when talking about the atrocities of Pakistan Army against their own people , most of the liberals would argue that these atrocities are committed for three major reasons.
1. In order to save their rule (like Yahya , Zia and Musharraf did).
2. In order to get more money (like Zia and Musharraf did)
3. In order to keep “bloody civilians” fearful of the army (like the show of power in Balochistan , Lal Masjid etc..)
Now the army that can kill people for the sake of money , the army that can rape women for the sake of rule , the army that can burn kids/girls for the sake of instilling their fear in the hearts of people , What is wrong if the same army plan to use nukes in order to save itself from extinction….
Fourth as somebody mentioned that their may be few black sheep and we can not condemn the whole institution for this.. so few black sheep kill people , burn people , rape women and bomb villages and the “white” sheep keep quiet….
Finally your “cold military war strategies” nuking your own people did not even enter Hitler’s or Nepolean’s mind , by the way you can very well imagine why Nawaz Sharif , the “right wing” leader was so aggressive against the hiding of Kassab’s family because he know at what limits this army can reach…
So where does it end??? Do we remain under the clutches of this army forever? I believe NO , the stories like “Alvi” are coming out , the bond between Mullah and Military is slowly cracking , the politicians are in better position to deal with army than their predecessors. Slowly but surely things are changing… it may take time perhaps another generation.
Is their a quick solution , US/India getting rid of this army and giving people of Pakistan a clean country to run with democratic principles , the answer is NO , Iraq , Afghanistan is a stark example of this policy failure… they can only help us by supporting the civilian rule, remember this is in their benefit as well.
The same old sh!t. He is still manipulating by using words like “p..drinking Hindus” etc. to validate his wild claims.
I have still not seen any proper proof or reference, which could validate his claim to be true.
Let’s look at the scenario:
If one cannot rule out that the army could use the nuclear card against invading Indian forces in areas like deserts etc. Why buy Pejamistri’s claim that it is done on the base of ethnicity, why not think more logically and say, IF this scenario could occur it would be because the army wants to protect the areas which have high population density and thus in terms of humans and economy has higher value. In this case they will defend Punjab and the big cities in Sindh and maybe leave out and VACATE the desert area bordering with India. The Indians will off course know this plan and they are not voluntarily getting nuked. So in my view this theory is quite flawed and has been invented to scare us even more than before from our own army.
Btw: Didn’t “mohtarma Beeebeee” support the slaughter at Lal Masjid? How does a madarighar defend this stance?
@Peja (I am not using BJ right now as it seams Peja has become synonymous with it anyways
)
“Peja” says
And I remember the “verbal diarrhea” guy giving the best proof of hindus involvement in Mumbai attacks said “Look at his (Kassab’s) face , he doesn’t look like Pakistani” ….
Oh so now you are calling your (only?) supporter TK the “verbal diarrhea” guy?
@TK
I’m not getting in the middle of this personal feud between the two of you.
Then please stay out of it!!! (BTW, you certainly fooled me)
“I think both of you guys are senior and well respected members of this forum and I think it is unbecoming of both of you to engage in this level of personal conflict openly.”
Again you are equating the two of us. We are NOT!!!
(I also find it interesting that you go and write a whole post addressed to me on your blog without even letting me know. You must have taken the cue from Peja, who has ALL of his posts on his blog since September (though only three) dedicated to me.
Kind of reminds me of our dear friend Paindoo.
@kafka8
Remember one George W. Bush asked a very innocent question..
Recently when I hear the people complaining about “why the world does not believe us?” I can not help smiling on their “innocence”. Listen to Nawaz Sharif and you will know why world does not believe us.
I am obliged….
“verbal diahrea guy” and GoTK haha… let me quote you…
Finally two of my posts were addressed to Shirkuh (may be you and Shirkuh are one), and they were not at all personal , the were more about the response to his questions.
@Pejamistri
“Finally two of my posts were addressed to Shirkuh (may be you and Shirkuh are one)”
Ha..ha.ha.ha….I am honored. Our minds might not be miles apart, but the physical distance is most probably significant!
He.he.he….ridicolous claim….still laughing
@everyone,
I have not been able to follow up comments lately.
I want all senior members, including both nota and peja to agree on some basic rules of conversation and we will make that as our constitution. You can put suggestions on the visitors news and views page.
Admin
I just saw the news on GEO, where some guy from Interpol said that even they had not received any proofs from the Indians.
Here is the news from GEO website.
http://geo.tv/12-23-2008/31176.htm
Interpol chief meets Rehman Malik
Updated at: 1405 PST, Tuesday, December 23, 2008
ISLAMABAD: Interpol secretary general Ronald Noble met with Adviser to the Prime Minister on Interior Rehman Malik and discussed the post Mumbai attacks situation.
A five-member delegation of Interpol led by secretary general arrived in Islamabad Tuesday.
The Interpol chief informed Rehman Malik about the Indian stance on the issue. The interior Adviser told the Interpol chief that no substantial evidence produced by India to Pakistan about alleged links of Pakistani nationals in Mumbai attacks.
@peja, nota, tk, nrkh, shirkuh and other working minds
“You have been asking this question several times how to differentiate between a “good military” and “faujinatanic forces” , it is exactly like differentiating between “good taliban” and “bad taliban””
i would like to hear what your take is on this matter.
I just don’t understand the logic behind @Pejamistri’s stance.
On one hand he hates the army, and on the other hand he doesn’t comment on the hand in glove cooperation between the army and the present government. Isn’t it true that the present government has adopted some the same policies on crucial issues. And that too some issues, which could have made dents into military power.
- Reinstatement of CJP Iftikhar Chaudry
- Stop the American sponsored and GHQ accepted war on our western frontier.
- Where are BB’s murderers? Where is the FIR?
- Why has AZ the same dictatorial powers as Moshe?
and other questions as:
- Why is Gilani only a puppet minister?
- Why is Haqqani made ambassador while holding American citizenship?
- Why is ZPP not letting the British authorities having access to proofs against MQM?
-Why is MQM partner in crime with ZPP?
How come peja is the only poster who equate Pak Army strategies as Pak Army blackmailing & his posts are considered totally sane & not removed from thread.
We are on the verge of war & some poster spewing poison against Pak Army–what kind of services Pak Politics providing to nation.
Freedom of speech should have some sane & decent limits specially at the time of war.
We can make fun of our religion & nation because it make us special–every individual believe whole nation & muslim ummah is infected with disease he is pointing out except him that make him special & more close to west which is a proud thing to be.
We are a nation of hangups & inferiority complex.
Still making up fake(‘Again you are equating the ZH with GoTK. they are NOT!!! “) quotes? That’s just like you
Yes, addressed to Shirkuh but you conveniently leave out
The “PkPolitics Comments..” post: Shirkuh had asked the questions in respose to your accusation I was on PML-N payroll.
Shirkuh’s original comment was here but has been chopped for some reason. Your original response was here (partial/chopped). One of the accusation about paid agents is here (The PML(N) one probably got chopped. BTW, reading comments there, appears that day you got a thrashing as well)
The “Q & A yet again : Wish I could “KNOW-ALL”?:
)
We all know who you accuse of being a “Know-All” all the time. See e.g. here. You have done it so many times it has become a joke (ex. here and here. Again Shirkuh’s original comment can be found here. Scroll up a couple of comments and the picture becomes clear. (I remember that day too you ran to your mama
At least own up to your words.
Coward!
In my mind there is no “Good Taliban” or “Bad Taliban” as such. The same can be said about the armed forces. Why? In a historic context they both think they are right. We need to educate them and convince them through especially educational reforms and implementing the writ of the state (law and order for rich and poor).
What is needed? We can only get out of this mess by having determined and fearless leadership with a depth that provides security of continuity! We need to negotiate and have peaceful settlement on our western borders. Education, education and education is the way forward. A massive education plan is needed all over Pakistan with special attention on the frontier and other heavily neglected areas. Secondly we must ensure that all of Pakistan depends on business with each other. This plan will show results 10-15 years and we will see that a law and order will be established in these “uncontrollable” areas too.
We need visionary leaders combined with public will. Without public will there will be no visionary leaders – no vote no power to change the state of affairs. The leaders should be bold enough to bring forward the relevant sentiments of the public and not be cow@ards hiding behind modalities and constantly telling the public that all the tasks ahead are very difficult and cannot be solved yet. Statements like “We need more time” etc. won’t help. For instance PPP could have been bold in the first place and keep their promise and reinstate the only CJ, who dared to speak against our incompetent GHQ. They could have a perfect balance between a democratic government (with the aim to strengthen the institutions) and the judiciary. Every time someone would ask to have special “favors” they could have been excused by the firm CJP. They could have asked anyone to just follow the law and not ask for favors.
The problem with PPP and PML-N is that they want everyone to follow the law except themselves and their accomplice’s i.e. we continue the “you scratch my back and I will scratch yours” strategy, which will lead us nowhere but downwards. We have now reached the bottom. We have reached a “do or die” stage, where we MUST take radical steps to get out of this mess. The problem is that the different power stations like the two biggest political parties and the GHQ/establishment doesn’t trust each other. While they are dependent on each other they are still very skeptical about the moves of the opposite party. The military doesn’t believe they can be looked after by the politicians they themselves have fostered. Yes, the same politicians they have nurtured and fostered to be obliging fools, and sadly for Pakistan our politicians never got out of this negative role. We are witnessing the same kind of a power deal between the military and the government. Confusion all over about who is the boss. Can anyone tell me who is the boss? Is it AZ, YRG or Kiyani?
IMO a totally new generation of politicians is needed, who can be bold and take the right decisions in the interest of Pakistan i.e. competent and non-corrupt people.
Clarification:
Peja has used the “Know-All” thngy against others as well. e.g. See his response to mbokhari’s comment. But that was not all….
And mbokhari’s response is a classic. Read it starting here.
OUCH!
Anyways, I still stand by my claim about that particular “Know-All” being directed at me.
Is the Interpol guy on the picture a relative of Rehman Malik?
http://geo.tv/12-23-2008/eng/12-23-2008_31176_l.gif
Don’t your see the resemblance?
@dmin
Why are the previous comments chopped?
Please have a look in nota’s post here:
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/12/22/the-end-of-the-ppp-pmln-affair/#comment-139926
@Shirkuh
“He.he.he….ridicolous claim….still laughing ”
Hello all,
PPP and PNL are never together. They were just playing politics and that is dirty politics in the name of nation.
they are playing with the feeling, life, and money of the nation.
Both has to go.
NS should stop acting as a friendly opposition.Zardari is a traitor, its high time for NS to mobilize the nation and get rid of zardari and co.
@kafka8
Let me quote Dosteovsky for you
Do you see anything common in digging the grave and taking out the corpse and p!$$!ng on it and thinking of a “cold military war strategies” to nuke any part of the world… By the way it is only the military of Pakistan who can think of such a “military war strategy” , artistic isn’t it??
@nota: okay, I ranted about the mullahs vs. Military and that ‘post’ came out of the answer I had given to you. I will put the attribution and link there, but the post right now does look like it’s addressed to you, which it’s really not. therefore confusing and possibly misleading. I will correct that.
Actually I started out that so called blog just as a repository (cesspool? since I’m the diarrhea guy …;) ) of the ranting and raving I was doing on this site. My posts have a tendency of getting censored (gee I wonder why? …:-P )
@nota, @peja and others
Come to think of it, I shouldn’t bother playing mr. nice guy, I play a better a$$hole so I’ll stick to that role. You guys figure it out.
I’ve also had the ‘know all’ thrown at me. I missed mbokhari’s response, but I’ll go read it.
I guess the moral of the story is that we all are pretty much dicks to each other, so I shouldn’t pipe up because everyone has a different way of getting on other people’s nerves. I missed all the action when I was gone and seems like people’s dislikes have become entrenched.
Now I see the error of my ways, ie;, ONE CAN’T BE A DICK TO PEOPLE IN A NICE WAY!
And calling names, getting the mothers and sisters involved, it’s all part of being a dick in a proper way. I should know this. I’m a pretty egregious dick myself. I don’t know what the fvck came over me that I tried to get anyone to be ‘not so personal’ …
so, whatever…
Feels like a dysfunctional family re-union around here. Happy fucking holidays. HO HO HO!
And don’t forget, we’re all in this together.
Baboo brigade is on fire. Bless them!
No human has a perfect knowledge and God looks at our intentions not deeds, right? In other words if you intend to go for Jihad but get killed by some lunatic as soon as you set foot out of your home, you will be considered martyr.
Now, let’s say, if a suicide bomber is convinced that his action is right and he blows himself up, killing many innocent people in the process, would he be considered martyr? Similarly, if a scientist considers his work to be part of his faith/jihad and builds weapons of mass destruction (as we are instructed to do in Surah Anfal) that will eventually be used to kill innocent people, would he considered martyr before God. Please note both suicide bomber and scientist is convinced that their actions are correct and they are doing it solely to achieve the pleasure of Allah. I understand killing of innocent people is not allowed in Islam under any circumstances. Let’s assume suicide bomber and scientist, however, were not aware of this fact. What fate would they meet on other side of life? Will they be considered martyrs before God in here after? Let me reiterate the fact that no human has perfect knowledge and can never even achieve perfect knowledge. Muslims scholars have constantly disagreed on such issues.
@nota: I miss mbokhari’s writings man… thanks for posting that.
I am not denying that @peja does have a way of INFURIATING people with his passive aggressive, patronizing means of communications.
I’m just saying he, as a human being, doesn’t deserve to be called BJ. Just like I have no love for jurnails, but I think a sappy letter written by an emotional grieving daughter (a pakistani woman possibly raised on a steady diet of Khawateen Digest ‘fiction’) is no place to inquire her about her fathers illicit affairs. Let the woman be! (and we wouldn’t have to endure a second ‘featured article’ about Alvi, had it not been the first one written in ‘indecent haste’ as ayaz amir likes to call it)
Anyways, I found myself LOL’ing at this quote by mbokhari (in the ensuing disucussion after the post linked to by you):
I’ve had my issues with the “18 stone woman”… God knows I have! Maybe @peja will find a way to not be so infuriatingly patronizing. One can only hope.
@TK
“Happy fucking holidays. HO HO HO! ”
Happy fucking holidays! I myself am about to leave on a four (five? six??seven???) day trip to southern-most Punjab.
Till then, take care @all…
Why quote Dosteovsky in Turk–why not quote subcontinent atrocities by Hindus & Sikhs in 1947 & incident of Gujrat’s burning alive in Train.
Tossing the babies in the air is no doubt extreme cruelties but digging kirpan on the pile of dead bodies to check if any musla is still alive is not less either.
Theres nothing in common in digging the grave & pissing on it with cold war military strategy–I am not sure if someone piss on grave–muslims need water after pissing–if its true then they were not muslim or at least not practicing muslim.
I really don’t know what digging the grave & pissing in it has to do with cold war strategy & then he go one step further “to nuke any part of world”
Theres only one example of nuclear explosion & that “any part of world” justifiably could be applied there because Japan was their enemy but not winning the war against them–Germany was–they decided to nuke any part of the world.
that was the most racist thing ever happened to the world–Germany were like them of the same race & many Jews still lived there, they decided to nuke japan.
peja wrote
“By the way it is only the military of Pakistan who can think of such a “military war strategy” , artistic isn’t it??”
No one knows whats the source of his knowledge–Shirkuh had asked him repeatedly to disclose his source–so far we know its the invention of his own demented mind.
Its idiotic when he talks about thinking of doing such thing when we have practical example where such thinking was practically implemented exactly the same way he put it i.e. any part of the world.
How such heinous & demented thinking could be exclusively attributed to Pak Army when we already have example of just not the thinking but actual crime in past history.
@shirkuh:
man! your hatred for ZPP and @peja is almost as palpable and visceral as mine for fake ass “Islamists” (who I call beardo’s)
Beardo’s are cargo-culters. Look at Ajmal Kasab (who I did think at the time looked like a pacific islander) … this is a man who allegedly joined some group only so he would gain ‘valueable expereience’ in his robbery career. I’m sure he had a beard, he watched a lot of hypnotic jihadi videos of other saps prepping to go to the gallows, leaving sappy messages for their families etc etc.
But this ‘mujahid’ has no understanding of what he does. He is fodder. but it is not just him, the organization and the leaders thereof, are also fodder, of their handlers, (ISI? ) who are then in turn fodder for foreign power’s strategic (30-50 year plans) maneuverings. So he did blindly what he was asked to do, and like a whiny little b!tch, he sings like a canary when a military boot is up his a##.
But you know they’re supposed to die, not be “poster boys for jihad” which he, unwittingly, is.
This is the LAST kind of jihad, and the LAST kind of “mujahid” that one should aspire to be (in my personal opinion)… I’m not trying to play Ghamdi here, but seriously,
If you want to go to the moon, what do you do first? Do you build the cockpit first? hanging in the air or do you build the rocket first? but before you do that do you build the launch pad and the engines first? But wait! before you build the launch pad, you have to have the knowhow to build the complex that will support the launching activity…. all this leads back to one place.
A place of learning. Thinking. Exploring.
It leads back to the basics: Iqraa.
So, if you’re rearing to subdue europe and the west (now china, india and russia — since our youth are so feisty) … you get your a$$ back in the library.
The biggest jihad right now is building schools and libraries. I believe that to dissipate the nation in armed conflict now is criminal and exactly what your enemies want.
And I’m not talking about universities where the ‘research’ is all about “Optics based on Quran” and “covalent bond breakup in the light of the HOly Quran”
Seriously, Quran is not a science book. It is a guideline. Stop using it as a recipe book, politics knowhow book, physics, chemistry, aviation, and medicine book FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Even the Muslims of the 10th century had THAT MUCH sense! No wonder the streets of Multan look in worse shape than the streets of Moen-Jo-Daro… and that shit’s been in ruins for 4000 years.
All because we’re ignorant, and we won’t face up to it.
So, this is why I’m against beardo’s. They attract our young to their doom with a simplistic, therefore seductive, but ultimately WRONG analysis of the situation. I’m not against beards, but the beardo’s have got to go!
I think Chris Rock’s analysis of “Blacks vs. Niggiz” (someone needs to do a “Muslims vs. Beardo’s” version of this) sortof kindof explains my sentiments on this issue.
@ Ghost of TK
If you call yourself Muslim, answer my question on Jihad that I have posted above. By the way, what is BJ?
Building Schools & Libraries is the job of non beardo secular govt.
How this lecture is tuned with addressing the beardo–Islamist did have biggest libraries ever exist in Bughdad & Bulgrade which were destroyed & most Books were drowned in River.
So to say Islamist have nothing to do with education & libraries is denying historical facts & giving lecture to Islamist on importance of education is sheer non beardo ignorance.
I really don’t know if Quran is Book of science or not but all the big Islamic scientist names & fathers of Algebra & Chemistry & Medicine were first taught the Quran then they learn & invented more branches of science–It seems like Quran was the base of their knowledge.
They never knew a non beardo genius will come in 21st century to give lecture on hierarchy of getting on to Moon & teach us the benefits of building the cockpit first.
@jazoo:
Are you capable of having a serious conversation for ONCE? without regurgitating the BS that you are indoctrinated with?
Your starting point is an Islamic State and you want to ak-47 your way to it, and if you build schools (madrassah in arabic) you also want to use it as a tool, as a means to a violent end. THEN and ONLY THEN will you start the real work of society building. Until then, everything is fair game… killing, raping the country, destroying a perfectly good muslim country where people are pretty much free to practice Islam. All that gone for your HOMO fantasy land you call the islamic state.
What I’m saying is totally different. I’m making a distinction between, Islam, Muslims, Political Islamists, and freeking nutbag beardos.
You are accusing me of lumping everything together, not because I DID, but because you DIDN’T bother to comprehend and consider what was said.
Last comment takes the cake. Just eat sattoo and die!
@jazoo
You think those islamist who happened to be in Baghdad, Tashqand, Bukhara etc etc are the same as we do have now in Swat and related areas……Have you been there?
Do you really have an idea what kind of people they are?
Just ask some body who lives there or I guess you live there then you might be one of them otherwise it is not possible for any sensible person to support taliban.
@Ghost
So I am indoctrinated with BS–I was not the one who was teaching steps to go to Moon & its application to social islamic science.
You turned out to be a better pen than I initially thought but it does not mean you necessarily a better mind.
you also accuse me of lacking comprehending your classified BS–it is possible Moonology & its application on Islamic social science is your specialty then I must confess I failed miserably to comprehend your depth but bright chances are you are also infected with common Pkistani disease of “know all”
Then you wrote
“What I’m saying is totally different. I’m making a distinction between, Islam, Muslims, Political Islamists, and freeking nutbag beardos.”
No you are not.
To make such distinction you need to have at least basic knowledge of all–You have none of Islam & Political Islamist though you are specialized in “Beardos”.
If you feel demoralized after reading my post–accept my apologies.
Let me know of a Satto joint in Karachi,Lahore & CT.
@jazoo: I’m not demoralized, I’m flabberghasted!.
Oh and those “islamic scientific achievements” you crow about now, your brethern the BEARDOS OF BAGHDAD at that time were busy declaring as heretical and “un-islamic”.. All the scientists that you’re digging up out of the past (what was it 800 years ago?) were declared “kaafir” by your ilk.
Don’t you think it is sad that you have to time travel back 800 years to come up with an example of a worthwhile library the Muslims had? So? the mongols came, and they destroyed the library, and that was it? you don’t need another one cause you had one in 1250’s ???? Looking at your example Japan and Germany would still be eating horse-shit because 50 years is nothing compared to the lazy mentality you seem to advocate! OH we USED TO HAVE A JET ENGINE! TAKE THAT REALITY BASED THINKING!!
I would say whatever, but it’s my own kind, my own nation and my own a$$ on the line here. So I get pissed off and scream bloody murder! as I should! this is the least I can do. To counter the regressive, counter-productive thinking that your ilk disseminate.
Those people were still way more educated than the current Beardo crop. Who think that the sole path to islam lies in unkempt beards, lack of hygiene/rationality and good manners, and oddly tailored clothes! “Because we’re humble you see!” as they patronize the whole world with their misplaced and utterly undeserved superiority complexes.
I’m giving you an example. The point was to say that don’t put the fucking cart 100 miles ahead of the horse! The technological prowess of the west is a SYMPTOM of their culture of knowledge. They didn’t wake up one day and found RDX in a bush! they have 300 years of chemistry research that brought it to this point. You’re happy to pack your suicide vests with RDX sold to you by zioinst weapons smugglers, they have TOTAL DOMINANCE over nations of 30 million with 200,000 men … with extremely low casualties! (5000 in 5 years is chickenshit)
This is why YOU have to resort to BLOWING YOUR SELF UP, while They can kill a million of you from “control rooms in Nebraska”. Simply because they learn, think, research, find new things and apply. While YOU are made to jackoff to jihadi videos.
And then FOOLS like you rejoice over one guy throwing a shoe on bush, never mind the ASSRAPING a muslim nation got because of the same kind of bone-headed thinking that you represent, present and vehemently defend! mainly because of failed education systems (but you won’t have an education system, unless it was “islamic” education system… heck you won’t listen to a song unless it was called “nasheed”… wtf… it’s too disgusting to even discuss the kind of hypocrisy the beardo’s engage in)
Islam is a fetish to you. Just like Star Trek is a fetish to the Trekkies. Like Star Wars Losers, you think by dressing up like Darth Vader YOU ACTUALLY BECOME DARTH VADER, and taht plastic green thing in your hand is a lightsabre!
NOT!
First things first! Walk before you Run. And for god’s sake LEARN!
@Ghost
For a change I was expecting better & coherent response but again this non-beardo insect has bitten you.
You never give up with your never ending comical advices–You are so full of yourself you impressed me–Now tell me why should I run when I learn from you.
I will disregard & give you some food for not thinking.
Shandan you also please
Islamist is the one who try to live his daily life as per Islamic teachings plus who believe in Islamic Governance.
Al-Qaeda & taliban are creation of last decade–Islam & its teachings are 1400 years old so we do not have to understand Islam or Islamist through Taliban.
Both of you agree they are tool in the hands of enemy of Islam–so blame the tool & their operators not the Islam or Islamists because to disgrace Islam is one of the main purpose of enemy & you succumb to their plot.
When Musa(AS) left his people for one day all turned to kufr except one or few–Pl imagine Prophet of God is still among the people but they turned to kufr–Blame does not go to message or Messenger.
@jazoo Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:41 pm
I appreciate the arguments which you built to support your stance.
Isay kehtay hain Bhains kay agay been bajana!
Although I disagree with Ghost but I must say he sounds sincere to me.
He is not like peja with a Mission.
@TK,
brilliant rebuttle mate, unfortunately our narrow-minded friends are too afraid of acknowledging their own weaknesses. Which makes it even harder to have a rational conversation with them… its always Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem..
what islam (yes, ISLAM) needs is a reformation, i firmly believe anything left to human beings for interpretation cannot be without errors.
Iqbal wrote a dissertation on “reconstruction of religious thought in islam”… it is exactly that we need… a renaissance, a crash evolution in mentality that would put both religious zealots on par with social science and technology..
and honestly, i contend that it will require a massive and concerted effort from our religious community to come out of their bubble and make a case for universal morality (which by the way is the bedrock fo islam), and human rights.
i firmly believe that islam and science dont clash, but we need to try a different lens, a different prism to look to find common ground.
The first step in getting to that common ground is promoting education. and iqbal (who we too hastily neglect) showed us that way.
@GoTK, jazoo
Come on TK, lay off jazoo. Point out a single thing that he said that was factually incorrect. I think you baboo brigadiers have wisdom in your ankles (aql gittan ich). Muslim scientists have been the beacon of light throughout the downy mist of centuries.
Ibn Jubeir invented chemistry, Ibn Sina invented medicine, Ibn Rushd invented Optics, Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood invented Jinn fired Power Plants and Mulla Fazlullah invented vaccination against polio vaccines (kaBoom!)
http://www.chowk.com/articles/4544
TK, your line of argumentation is disingenuous and dishonest. You say that Muslim scientists from the medieval era were different from the Muslim scientists of the modern era? How so?
Muslim scientists in the 12th century were dealing with the problems of polio and how it can be treated. Jamia Haqqania in Swat’s Center for Disease Dissemination has discovered that a carefully positioned improvised explosive device on the road frequented by lady health workers is a very effective vaccination and Islamisation technique.
Muslim scientists in the 11th century were struggling with the question of the global time and now a conference in Doha Qatar has discovered that Makkah is at the center of the world and Makkah Standard Time (MST, aka Mystery Science Theater) should be the new time standard.
http://al-amana.net/home/2008/04/23/scholars-call-for-making-makkah-core-point-for-world-time/
And once again, opening schools and libraries is the job of the SECULAR GOVERNMENT (which we know to be haraam)and this poses no dilemmas for the Mujahidin. For them Jihad is enough. They are ready to face death, destruction and disembowelment in interesting ways. They are not frightened of death. (Only of classrooms, libraries and laboratories)
So, leave jazoo alone. He has true taqwa and may God guide him to the right path (hopefully aided by GPS).
Verily, there are signs in this for those who see and hear. And such sight and vision comes only when your beard ratio is greater than 12, ankle ratio is less than 5 and your atr kills within a 2m radius.
LEGEND:
beard ratio=alf/bay,
where
alf=height in ft,
bay=beard shareef length in ft
bankle ratio=jeem/daal, where
jeem= length of calf covered by shalwar shareef in ft,
dal=length of calf covered by juraab shareef in ft
Hahah, good post Cicero
@Peja
… read the dictionary….
Not only my own sister but I may use it for your sister too
:O Internet surely does allow people to hide in the cloak of anonymity and post whatever they cannot dare say in front of someone.
Trust me, had you said that for my sister in front of me, I would have RIPPED YOUR A** APART!
@Marcvs_Tacitvs_Cicero: hahaha! that was funny man! I think you nailed it right here:
@jazoo: (this is a rant, and is going to make the least amount of sense)
I’m not conflating Islam, Islamism and Talibanism/Algayduh’ism. I have serious issues with the Islamist project but that project is well-defined (at least in theory – though it’s unattainable). I have a major problem with blind-faith beardo’s who are “muddahi sust, gavaah chust” type people. They are more muslim than Islam. They are illiterate, uncompromising, unthinking chasing after a mirage which isn’t there.
And the Islamists are fooled by this “raw emotion and energy” of the crazies. What I’m trying to say is that even though Most “islamists” support the taliban-style actions, what they are ignoring is that this taliban mentality (beardo interpretation of Islam) is actually FATAL to their project!
The pseudo-mujahid actions like the counter-productive shit in Kashmir or in Mumbai most recently is only an aid in a ratcheting action against the muslims and muslim nations.
This is NOT helping anyone, it is only helping those whose strategic aims it fulfills (that’s my contention and I’m sticking with it).
Please, remind me of ONE victory that the Islamists have had in the last 60 years which has NOT ultimately led to humiliation and disaster for the Muslims as a whole?
And Please, you can’t count Hizbollah. They are NOT beardo’s. I don’t even count them as “islamists”.
Egypt? against Jamal Abdunasir – Guess who is in Control of Egypt — USA
Jordan – USA
Saudi Arabia (and the pseudo kingdoms) – USA
Pakistan – USA
Afghanistan, its jihad etc. — USA
India / Kashmir — Kashmir’s cause has been equated with “terrorism” and the issue is on the back burner. The jihadi camps on the other hand are on the front burner.
Iraq – OMG USA again
Algeria – After all the killing, PRO USA though the West is complicit in denying the democratic right of the Islamists, but what did they do after the denial? back to slaughtering like the old times….
I don’t need to go into the track record of Algayduh and the Taliban (drug smugglers, school burners, just fvcking idiots to the max!!!)
So the pattern is very predictable:
Islamists, and now beardo’s are LURED into toppling stable, nationalistic government in the name of “Islam”, once the task is finished, they are discarded like disposable condoms and become enemies of state. The autocratic “leader” then proceeds to rule in a tyrannic fashion, and the Islamists are left to morph into beardo’s because of their disillusionment.
It works like clockwork. You can fool any emotional Muslim boy into killing himself in the name of Islam. The best weapon against Muslims is the fvcking Jihad by Individual doctrine.
Every single time you conduct your damn jihad, Muslims lose another foothold in this world.
By the time beardo’s are done, we’re going to be like the mongols. drifting in the world like nomads, or gypsies… our enemies used our own philosophy against us and we weren’t smart enough because we were too frikking un-lettered.
WTF??? what’s with the all bold!
This was tough one. Please don’t use the symbols of “greater than” or “less than” again, unless used for HTML tags. Instead write this maths in plain English.
Admin Singh
d’accord, Monsieur l’Admin Singh!
It was a not a honest partnership, Zardari and Nawaz Sharif hated each other, it was a matter of time. Both parties are selfish and both want power at any cost.The biggest loser is the public who were fooled by these two crooks. None of the promises are fulfilled and the public is now in worst condition.
Islamic Science Makes a Comeback
For many, Iran conjures up images of angry ayatollahs and scientist bent on acquiring nuclear weapons. But physics professor and author Jim Khalili sees another side to Iran, one where Islamic teachings and science have propelled the country to the forefront of stem cell research. Islamic science – often seen at odds with Islam despite the religion’s history of medieval innovation – is making a come-back.
By Jim Al-Khalili
Many areas of scientific research in the West seem these days to be mine fields of ethical and moral dilemmas. When such research is carried out in countries regarded as enemies of the West, such as Iran, the alarm bells not surprisingly ring even more loudly. But while the U.S., Israel and others agonize over what to do about Iran’s fast-developing nuclear program, another area of research altogether seems to be quite unexpectedly flourishing there.
On a recent visit to Iran with a BBC film crew while making a television documentary series, I was allowed unrestricted access to a thoroughly modern research laboratory. The Royan Institute in Tehran is a place that is carrying out, by any sensible measure, world-class work in genetics, infertility treatment, stem cell research and animal cloning, all in an atmosphere of openness that was quite dramatically at odds with my expectations.
What struck me most was the way the state authorities overseeing the research – for it is certainly closely watched – seem to have dealt with the ethical minefields of parts of the work, in stark contrast to the vociferous opposition to it from some quarters in the West.
While at the Royan, I spoke with one of the imams who sits on their ethics committee. He explained that every research project proposed must be justified to and vetted by his committee to ensure that it does not conflict with Islamic teaching. Thus, while issues such as abortion are still restricted in Iran (it is allowed only when the mother’s life is in danger), research on human embryos is encouraged.
I was certainly taken aback when he quite rightly pointed out that the only thing produced in embryonic stem cell research is a clump of cells, which is far from what could be defined as a human fetus.
The fundamental question here, as it is in the rest of the world, is: What defines life? Many, but by no means all, Christians believe that human life begins at the moment of fertilization — a notion not shared in Islam or Judaism. The Christian argument is based on the idea that the fertilized egg contains everything that is needed to replicate and grow and that this is sufficient. But is the “potential” of becoming a human being really enough?
This is more than just a metaphysical issue. From a purely scientific perspective, an embryo just a few days old is no more than a bundle of homogeneous cells in the same membrane that do not function in a coordinated way to regulate and preserve a single life. So while each individual cell is “alive”, it only becomes part of a human organism when there is substantial cell differentiation and coordination, which occurs around two weeks after fertilization. Therefore a more sensible definition of the beginning of life is that it takes place gradually during the fetus’s development, long after the embryonic stem cells stage where there is only a “potential” for life.
According to Islamic teaching, I discovered, the fetus becomes a full human being only when it is “ensouled”. This takes place anywhere between 40 and 120 days after conception, depending on various interpretations of the Qur’an. So the research at Royan is not seen as playing God, since it takes place long before the soul has entered the body of the unborn fetus.
There is much that the West finds unpalatable about life under Islamic rule in Iran. But when it comes to the controversial subject of genetics, Iranian scientists don’t let religious doctrine hold them back.
Jim Al-Khalili is a professor of physics, author and broadcaster in the UK where he teaches and carries out his research in theoretical nuclear physics. He is currently working on a new series for the BBC called Science and Islam and is writing a book on medieval Arabic science.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/islamsadvance/2008/09/islamic_science_makes_a_comeba.html
@Marcvs_Tacitvs_Cicero
Perhaps you are one of the rare species found abundantly on this forum–who can write thousand of pages on any topic.
Your hilarious research on Alif Be pe is pride of this forum.
ASAP apply for copy rights–Cheaters are here & there everywhere–they can collect your work in bits & pieces & publish their own Book then it would be too late no one would know who was real Ghalib & who was Zoq.
Keep up the good work but safely.
I find it depressing and disheartening that only Ummat publications is “supporting” my theory that the real target in this conflict (if it comes) will be Kashmir.
I have been advocating strikes on dams and facilities whenever the next war comes. But our incompetent ‘ruling class’ does the bare minimum that is required of it to maintain control on us “haari’s” and that is.
Meet the ruling class with a feudal mindset, politicians, jurnails, mawlawnaw nutbags all. It pays interest to the world banya, it smokes charas with the rest of the money, represses its people and NEVER thinks beyond the next day or so.
I think Indians will cut off Pakistan from Kashmir and THOSE will be the bargaining chips for the peace talks and NEW FOTG for Obama administration to deal with.
Baboos?
To show supremacy the Baboos are ridiculing all those who are not able to write proper English. Branding the opposition as beardos won’t help in educating the nation. The excessive name calling will only backfire since those people, who are targeted will certainly make their trench and the Baboos will be in their own trench (ridiculing, putting down and teasing the opponents).
What will the baboos achieve? IMO NOTHING, but to divide the nation further. If you want to use your education sensibly you ought to bring yourself to a level of communication required to effectively put forward your point of view. Otherwise it will only be a lot of “nonsense” talk ready to disappear in the space of oblivion.
On this website we have two kind of baboos. The first type are those, who by heart want Pakistan to prosper and thus want democracy on grass root level, rule of law, education, strong institutions etc. That’s all fine, but the problem occurs when these good baboos like @GoTK and Cicero becomes an instrument in the hands of the evil baboos.
The evil baboos are those who emphasize on “proper” English regardless of the fact that some people with brilliant minds just are not able to read or write properly because of dyslexia. These evil baboos expects every debater to write perfect English in order to participate in the discussion. If a required level is not present they will taunt and mock their fellow debaters to shut them up (and also try get others on board). After all the mindset is that the tangewala, rickshaw wala, mochee etc. are only allowed to have representation through the baboos, who pay visit in their “low class” environment once in a wahile like baboo @Pejamistri. He is so “kind” to bring the thoughts of the poor to our knowledge, so that we can see how “knowledgeable” the poor are about PAK politics, but off course @Pejamistri will not allow them to write in their “poor” English. Well done @PejaMistri. This is hypocricy in a new dimension. Thanks for “educating” us.
My contention is:
Why can’t we focus on content instead of focusing in “perfect” English?
Why can’t we try to educate those people – who in our opinion – has a misperception about Islam/democracy?
IMO: @Pejamistri is a lost case. He has hatred towards Punjabis and Pakistan in general, and cannot be trusted. Maybe he is not even a “baboo” but rather a brown sahib or a coconut……brown outside and white inside.
@jazoo: Please stop calling it “Islamic Science” … Science is Science. Do you call a truck an “Islamic Truck” or a computer program “Islamic Computer Program” ???
In any case, if it will satisfy the “Islamic Fetish” of some people, All exprimental science stems out of the additions of the ‘experiment’ by Muslim scientists to the Greek knowledge.
This is what science is now and without it it is a farce.
I find it interesting that those who find the sunni, salafa, head-severing, blood-curdling, school-burning “Islam” of the salfi nutbags (bloodthirsty enemies of the Shia sec) attractive, have NO QUALMS in presenting the achievements of the Iranian state as their own.
Nice try @jazoo ! But you support Taliban, who came out of the same stinkhole ie; “Saudi” arabia , that popped out the evil child called Saddam’s Iraq. Iraq which got used as a condom at the “ungal of Saudi kings” and at the behest of Uncle Sam… almost exactly like another muslim nation (ring a bell? ITS YOU SILLY! YOUR”E THE ONE GETTING F***ED! YOU! PAKISTAN!)
This is what I call the “intellectual framework” … or “some kind of framework” that is needed behind a state. This is what Iranian state has behind it. This is exactly what the Pakistani state and its horrible hell-spawns like Taliban DONOT HAVE!
“Taliban” who think they’re going to glorify Islam as they drag us all down to the pits of hell, the meatgrinders at the other end of which they would meet their real masters and string-pullers — the zioinsts, the americans, the russians — were they in any shape to recognize the architects of their destruction that is. But they’d be “tasty burger” when all is said and done.
“Would you like fries with your Somalia Burger?”
@shirkuh: I don’t know what you’re talking about … I think aside from @Marcvs_T pretty much everyone on this forum has so-so english (including myself). Re: peja, I think @peja has many things to his credit, but “perfect english” is not one of them. I would call it gordian english. its very twisted within his own logic sometimes.
Don’t conflate complicated/twisted expression with complex or perfect.
I know “know all” is coming… to me that is
…. lol
@Shirukh:My contention is:
Why can’t we focus on content instead of focusing in “perfect” English?
Why can’t we try to educate those people – who in our opinion – has a misperception about Islam/democracy?
Yeah, you got the point. It is just content that does matter but not the “Perfect English”. No measures can be taken to map the intelligence of someone by his/her English writing ability.
We should urge everyone to write in any manner so one could convey ones point of view effectively instead of focusing on “Perfect English”.
@ Shirkuh
agree with you totally bro, but i think the posts should be comprehensible at the minimum. if someone’s english is not good, they are free to write in Urdu. @arshad mansoori is who i have in mind. his posts are just a jumble of words and understanding his posts are harder than solving a jigsaw puzzle. i just see his name and move on. sorry but i had to say this when i read your post. otherwise you’re right about the Baboos achieving nothing by creating more division in our society by attacking Islam and others attacking Pakistan(@peja baboo etc)
@GoTK
I have no idea what are you talking about. I never claimed my English is good , in fact it is very bad you know coming from a government primary school where you sit on “Taats” , it is hard to have a good English. So you are absolutely right about my English.
On the other hand “know-all” is not a bad word , it is an expression to show the people who think that they have solution to all the problems but they can not implement it… it is sort of “naa nau man ka tail hooga na radha naachay gee” . I use it for the people who condemn all politicians in Pakistan and associate things like “internal democracy” , “education” , “honest political leadership” etc as the pre-requisite to democratic system.. and since all of them are lacking in Pakistan , therefore they start equating democratic system with the dictatorship.
“Know-all” is not in anyway equal to “BJ” or anything like that. The expression may actually be true for some people, the great scholars , remember “Eureka”???
@Traffic
“I never claimed my English was good”…..No, but you didn’t miss the chance to mock those who didn’t have the same baboo standard.
There you see, Traffic. All of sudden there is a somebody at the washbasin
Yes, off course the minimum level is to maintain some kind of a standard to make oneself understood. I think what you are referring to is rather laziness. If one reads the comments before posting it, then it will do wonders for most people. I don’t mind either people writing Urdu.
@ Shirkuh
i think anymore discussion about the lowlife @peja is useless. you’re right he’s probably not even a baboo, he’s just an idiotic piece of $hit whose sole purpose of existence is to cook up fantasies about how Pakistanis(punjabis in particular but he hates ALL pakistanis except sindhis) want to annihilate Sindh Mata with nuclear weapons and how Atal Sindhi Zardari will prevent this from happening by putting the establishment on the backfoot(but still following its orders), all ofcourse with asheerbaad of the panjatan pak ZAB, Nusrat Bhutto, BB and her two brothers. i think everyone on this forum hates this worm as much we do, and he would have disappeared long ago like some MQM goons had it not been for the “support” of @Baboo TK. then again dont under-estimate his beghairati and dhithai, he still might stick around like a leech.
Wow! looks like the arguments will be waged and won by tag-team now. Don’t forget to get a catchy name for your tag-team!
@Admain: please note PERSONAL ATTACKS by none other than the Religious Kan-TuTTa’s.
No wonder Islam is everyone’s b!tch these days. With “Islamists” like these who needs zionist jews.
“Baboo” ?? that’s all you can come up with?
This is why beardo’s get their ignorant a$$es kicked every single time.
suicide vests are their last resort! And their suicide vests will stop working the day the Jews stop supplying them with RDX.
Cuz the beardo a$$holes don’t know what a beaker is… (or the scientific method for that matter).
7- You shall not use dirty language against other visitors of this site
Whoever accepts they’re a BEARDO, I will stop using profanity against them.
Any volunteers?
@Ghost
Islamic science or call it whatever you like.
whats big deal in name–Call it beardo science as long as they know when to build “Cockpit”.
You are assuming things about me.
Show me where I support Taliban–There are few posters here I feel they support Taliban but they are scared to open themselves.
If I have to support Taliban I would do so right on your non beardo face.
I do not hate Taliban & I do not hate you either.
Accepting Taliban as reality is not supporting them.
Your hate mongering is not result oriented–you spew your poison & think that you have done a service to community.
Because you can not live with them list your non beardo plans.
What part of country you will keep for yourself & your non beardo imbeciles.
Would you give them Peshawar & Sawat–who will take Quetta.
Would you like to keep Karachi, Lahore & Multan(perhaps your hometown)–what about Pindi–Perhaps half Pindi should go to Lal Masjid & half to nincompoops like you.
You think writing too many posts without any sense & spewing anger is your achievement–who cares if you are angry.
Get yourself & your act together be positive–a senseless & meaningless poisonous post which only contaminate the minds of readers is achievement for those who are playing you & with your emotions & you are being played unknowingly.
You are not alone–there are many mental midgets like yourself on this very forum who are willingly being played.
When Imam Ali(as) got upper hand on Kharjiettes, his companion ask him to eliminate them–he strongly refused–Thats where we get the light from.
Be positive & show some character.
@jazoo: The point is that the thing being stereotyped by that orientalist dude is not “islamic science” .. it is just science. it is research done using the scientific method (look it up or you prolly already know).
Science is science. Some of the Islamic countries are doing it. Iran, Malaysia are topmost. They also happen to be democracies with reasonably strong social structures and political institutions.
I guess you’re not a salafi. Fine. All I’m saying is that people conveniently take credit for science without making the distinction. There is a reason that Iran is surviving the american onslaught in a much better way, while we are acting like whores for americans (including allowing attacks on Iran from our territory — which washington conveniently forgets) and also getting treated like it.
Our scientific research institutions have been destroyed by “beardo’s” for lack of a better term. These are the IJT kan-tutta’s who have made it IMPOSSIBLE to do any kind of academic work in most universities.. and in their wake we see other student wings doing exactly the same things… You will see how Insaaf Student Federation starts using AK47’s .. there is NO way around it. IJT will kill your people and they will fight you where they’re best (not in debate but on the street with ak47)
Anyways, we and especially the people who believe in armed-islamic-revolution (ie; the taliban – in the real sense) can take credit of the Iranian achievement just because it happens to be a Muslim country.
The methods used by the two groups are wildly divergent. Iranians have a plan. Sunni salafists have NO PLAN (except of course JEEEHAAAADD!!!!)….
Like the mounty python knights of the round table, they charge the castle walls with swords… make trojan horses but forget to GET INSIDE them etc. etc.
It just shows a tendency to put education and learning in low regard. Something the prophet put in high regard.
I don’t have a problem with indigeous resistance against the western troops in Afghanistan. I think suicide tactics are counter-productive but whatever. But to do the same shit in Pakistan is un-acceptable.
who’s using these people? ISI, RAW, Mossad who knows. ISI is about as islamic an organization as RAW… so … if ISI can create a horde then so can RAW … some molvis are for sale. and it is very easy to fool a crowd which doesn’t look beyond Beards and loud protestations in support of Islam (actions may be diametrically opposed but ignorance protects them from the discomfort of knowing.)
So, the only hope we got as ‘whatever’ is in schools and libraries. Not as sexy as strapping one’self with Jew supplied RDX, but this is the ONLY Way to ANY KIND OF GLORY.
peace!
@Ghost
Its Islamic Science when you determine age & time of ensouling embryos from Quran.
@GoTK
…. Luckily my RSSOwl is back again and I am now filtering the messages therefore can not read all of them….
I see your English message was regarding Shirkuh’s comments about my “GREAT” English
haha..
@GoTK
Good that you are (almost) calm again
“Our scientific research institutions have been destroyed by “beardo’s” for lack of a better term. These are the IJT kan-tutta’s who have made it IMPOSSIBLE to do any kind of academic work in most universities.. and in their wake we see other student wings doing exactly the same things… ”
Almost agree here. I would say that IJT ghundaghardi has been allowed. These creatures exactly go as far as they are allowed to. If the ruling elite can have a tough stance against lal masjid and their own citizens in the frontier, then why can’t they go against the IJT? The will power is obviously not present. The young beardos have intentionally been planted there to suppress people from accessing good education. Haven’t they been there for decades now under every rule? Be it ZAB, Zia, NS, Moshe, AZ or BB.
“You will see how Insaaf Student Federation starts using AK47’s .. there is NO way around it. IJT will kill your people and they will fight you where they’re best (not in debate but on the street with ak47)”
Will see? Is it a prediction?
IMO you are being unfair here. You are presuming something, which actually is NOT happening. At least not for now and as far as know there is no intention about having such a new beardo brigade running havoc in universities. If that had been the case PTI – just like the other parties – would have an armed wing also. That is not the case and therefore I don’t believe that is the intention.
@Shirkuh
You wrote
“If the ruling elite can have a tough stance against lal masjid and their own citizens in the frontier, then why can’t they go against the IJT?”
I got the feelings you are endorsing ruling elite actions against lal Masjid & Northern Area.
Musharaf was almost victorious when Ghazi ask for safe exit but then stupidity prevail over common sense.
Those who are endorsing & condoning such acts have not even iota of sense left in them.
I am at loss how you got that impression
I am not endorsing the actions against lal masjid or the tribal areas. Obviously you are a “nawaN paronaN”. If you had read some of my previous posts you would know better.
What I am saying is that there is no will to make a move against IJT terrorists! And I stand by that!
So I got it alright now.
Shirkuh is not endorsing such brutal acts against Lal Masjid & Northern Areas but he is desperately waiting for similar will of ruling elite against IJT.
Hopefully this time I got it right–if still I am wrong then either of us need a refresher course in English probably from peja.
@Jazoo
If you have terrorists running around in universities, then we MUST deal with it. If possible in a peaceful way….I doubt it very much, because these young beardos are trained terrorists.
Btw: I don’t need classes from ANY baboo!
See when I was in UET Lahore.
I was in QSF
Frankly we also have terrorists like Jamiat.
@Jazoo
I must also say that @GoTK is right in his point about there is no such thing as “Islamic science/knowledge”. If it had been the case, then we wouldn’t have been urged to travel to even china to achieve knowledge. We would hardly get any “Islamic” science/knowledge at that time.
@shirkuh: IMO you are being unfair here. You are presuming something, which actually is NOT happening
I have no doubt in the sincerity and honesty of ISF, but the problem is that IJT will not let you live or operate on campuses. They will force an armed showdown. Either you will have to live as underdogs (with guns for self protection) or you will be hounded out off of the campuses.
Many student orgs have started and their leaders were ruthlessly eliminated (killed as in DEAD). Only APMSO and others could survive because they were MORE violent and won by sheer numbers (and better/similar organization — APMSO was modeled after IJT and Altaf is an ex-kanTuTTA just like hussain haqqani)
IJT has done more damage to the higher learning institutions of this nation than any hindu/banya/qadiani combined.
If we don’t have enough technicians and technologists, researchers who would enable us to fight India and other enemies. It is a direct result of the paralysis of educational institutions which the BEARDO’s (god damn the beardos) have caused because of their actions. (wittingly or unwittingly, but I don’t care)
It is only God’s justice that these kantutta’s are being beaten and humiliated by their master, Amreeka. And they yelp! they Yelp!! as their master beats them to death.
@GoTK
Thanks for the clarification.
Your explanation sets your claim in another and more plausible scenario. I still hope it will not happen. I fear that once somebody gets weapons – and he power that follows – it will corrupt them. In fact it will corrupt most people. At least there is a genuine fear of that.
At least someone like you, who emphasize so much on education, should have a soft corner for PTI. Isn’t PTI the party, which has fair amount of attention on education? Namal College is a start……..
@jazoo: no offense but you sounded like a jamatia to me…;)
Also, what you gave as an example of “islamic science” is actually an example of application of Islamic jurisprudence to demarcate an area of scientific research
So, by way of example, the atomic discoveries are not “jewish science”. Even if the jewish religion set some guidelines on what areas are to be explored or permissible to explore. (they did not.)
For example, on the tech side, some jews follow sabbat (saturday?) and to observe it they cannot use telephone but they have some weird way around it in which no electrical contact is made but the connection is made through a coil when the reciever is lifted(I saw in documentary) …
This will be an example of application of jewish jurisprudence to a technical situation. But we cannot call it “Jewish Technology”
Also, Born-again christians think that the soul enters the body at conception (?). They want to put limits on stem cell research based on that RELIGIOUS understanding. So, the Iranian limits are “too lax” for the Bush type chrisitans.
Did Jazoo sound like a jamatia?
I think Jazoo is a KATARRRRRRR jamatia
Speaking of nuclear blackmail. Why only single out Pakistan in this case? Why don’t the baboo brigade single out the mother of all nuclear bomb makers? The Yankees/Jews!
The Yankees have used the nuclear bomb on Japan with fatal consequences. It was a war the Yankees were going to win anyway and still they opted for the atomic bomb.
Vietnam: The use of the atomic bomb was seriously considered.
The Middle East: When the Israelis were cornered to some extent during the war in 1973 the Jews threatened Syria with a nuclear strike.
I ask again; Why is Pakistan singled out by the baboo brigade? Who are these propagandists serving?
@Shirkuh:
I don’t know what the long drawn angry discussion is here about, but I think I have a fairly good idea since I see the use of creative labels in full swing.
However, regarding your comment about why his “baboo brigade” (which I think is your choice-word for the befuddled drones hitherto referred to by some liberal fascists or letist fascists) single out Pakistan like the enemy within, or is inconsistent in their reasoning and approach is because many of these namby pamby’s do have fascist and myopic tendencies much like the religious freaks they see in every nook and cranny.
However unlike the religious freaks whose influence lies in the domain of faith and strike a closer chord with the general public, these leftist fascists not only do NOT know what irks them (seriously). Also unlike the religious freaks or beardos (a word which heaven forgive, I used over here back then) this Pakistani lefto-fascist is a strange animal: not only is it a hyppocrite because while chanting populist socialist mantras, it itself is the biggest supporter of elitist mentality both in thoughts and in words.
They would sully, muddy and advocate disaster whenever some unsuspecting li’l paltry merchant of commonalty may tread upon their own elitist “creative Commons”. Meaning they just ain’t fucking happy ever, until their visions are imposed. Strange they should then despise Musharraf and others of his ilk.
So I guess this new term of choice the baboo brigade is not so out of place after all. For massive inferiority complex and an outsider’s hostility is a requisite for their attitude.
What makes them more dangerous then their self proclaimed nemesis, is that it is they who actually do have access to information, power, wealth, education, government, and weapons. And they do not hesitate to use these to wipe out dissent, rights and any demand for accountability. And then they point the fingers to blame the victim.
In that they are no different than a foreign colonial power. What is so savage and pathetic about this scenario is that their savagery targets their own blood.
@Shirkuh:
I don’t know what the long drawn angry discussion here is about, but I think I have a fairly good idea since I see the use of creative labels in full swing.
However, regarding your comment about why this “baboo brigade” (which I think is your choice-word for the befuddled drones hitherto referred to by some as liberal fascists or leftist fascists) single out Pakistan like an enemy within, or are inconsistent in their reasoning and approach is because many of these namby pambys do have myopic fascist tendencies much like the religious freaks they see in every nook and cranny.
However unlike the religious freaks whose influence lies in the domain of faith and strike a closer chord with the general public, these leftist fascists not only do NOT know what irks them (seriously), their anger is ill defined. Unlike the religious freaks or beardos (a word which heaven forgive, I used over here back then) this Pakistani lefto-fascist is a strange animal: not only is it a hyppocrite because while chanting populist socialist mantras, it itself is the biggest supporter of elitist mentality both in thoughts and in words, but also because they would sully, muddy and advocate disaster whenever some unsuspecting li’l paltry merchant of commonalty may tread upon their own elitist “creative Commons”.
Meaning they just ain’t fucking happy ever, until their visions are imposed. Strange they should then despise Musharraf and others of his ilk.
So I guess this new term of choice the baboo brigade is not so out of place after all. For massive inferiority complex and an outsider’s hostility is a requisite for their attitude.
What makes them more dangerous then their self proclaimed nemesis, is that it is they who actually do have access to information, power, wealth, education, government, and weapons. And they do not hesitate to use these to wipe out dissent, rights and any demand for accountability. And then they point the fingers to blame the victim.
In that they are no different than a foreign colonial power. What is so savage and pathetic about this scenario is that their savagery targets their own blood.
@ VOX
I was the one who coined the term baboo brigade here but you have described this species very precisely. I couldn’t have explained it better, and it specially fits some of the baboos here perfectly.
the problem with these baboos is that these b*t*hes are ALWAYS whining about something or the other. they are never happy, and as @VOX pointed out they pretend to be promoting socialist slogans but they know they are a tiny minority which just makes a lot of noise. i think they are pissed off precisely because they and their ideas are not given any value by the ordinary people. so when some baboos like pervez hoodbhoy or that other lady who teaches at quaid azam university who claims to be a human rights activist, when these people spew their venom on TV people just curse them and move on. the fact is that an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis actually believe in Islam and the Quran, that is why to win votes, even a leader like BB jis ka Islam se koi lena dena nahi tha, she has to indent her speeches with some religious monologues.
some of these baboos preach “education” to be the panacea of all the problems and ills facing our nation. its not that these baboos actually believe that, they just want some point to hang onto. they blame, for example suicide bombings and terrorism with illiteracy. they dont want to mention the fact that suicide bombings and terrorism is actually a reaction to injustices when people who are wronged have no other means to fight back, they resort to these desperate measures, which has got nothing to do with Islam. also that many terrorists are educated in british and american universities so lack of education is hhardly the cause of terrorism. but these baboos parrot the same old propaganda from fox news that suicide bombers blow themselves up for 72 virgins, not because of any political reasons like occupation and killing of their people. and then one particular baboo keeps repeating all the time that “beardos” are pawns of jews while these baboos parrot the same propaganda of the jewish media. ironic init.
I am not Jamatia.
But I am against stereotype bigotry.
We are made believe here JI & IJT are responsible for current situation of our nation on the contrary their part is minimal in our dilemma as compared to secular powers Military & Politicians, those mostly all along sitting on podium of monarchy for last 61 years are not beardos.
Jamat should take credit for her crimes only but to make them whole sole incharge of our destruction is bigotry.
Now we are talking as no political party has its terrorist representation in Universities & Colleges–When I said they do I was labeled as Jamatia.
And I do not like hypocrisy either, many at heart a Taliban but they will go to any length to get along with the trend on this forum which is predominantly an anti mulla forum.
There are three type of followings here–one is Zombie like because some big pens are anti mulla so anti mulla must be a right choice.
Other is shrewd following–One who must be counted should get along the trend, these are Talibani anti mulla.
Third it has become a fashion to curse mulla & be counted as intellectual. I have seen many suomoto self claimed intellectuals born recently because they can curse in style.
I am Muslim & a dual national Pakistani & I am not jamatia.
I have seen Pakistanis fighting on trivial issues in Pakistan Day parade in NY–we are fully charged with negativity which we can see on this very forum as well.
Many nations small & big celebrate their days in NY but no one fight like us–they show grace & dignity when they are abroad even India, their parades are very discipline.
So man is hungry for recognition & look for things he could feel proud of–I personally could not find any reason to feel proud as Pakistani but I must say I really felt proud as Muslim.
Nothing make me feel more proud than my religion & my affiliation with Mola Ali & Imam Hussain–we have very strong & rich database which make us a thinker not a Zombie.
@VOX & Traffic
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/12/25/the-convoy-of-death/#comment-140499
The above is another example of horrendous crimes committed by the allied forces (US/EU/Afghan warlords etc) in Afghanistan. They are all busy at pointing fingers at PAK army and ISI while their masters are busy in making division amongst.
The sad thing is that our own baboo brigade join hands in anti-Pakistan statements in a crucial time, and forget that these deamoncrazy spokesmen themselves are the worst kind of war criminals. (I am not aganst true democracy, but I am against double standards) Our GHQ and to some extent ISI is not angels either, but we should time our criticism and not prattle about each and every of our problems at a crunch time. A time where we are surrounded by bloodthirsty enemies. As long as Pakistan stands intact we have a chance to correct our way of life. Isn’t it better to wait and continue criticising at a suitable point? Or is it all about Bhuttoism and supremacy of PPP? I’m afraid only Sindh, Bhutto and PPP matters for the baboo brigade general Pejamistri, FaheemXX etc..
Hazrat Imam Ali (A.S)
He who is greedy is disgraced; he who discloses his hardship will always be humiliated; he who has no control over his tongue will often have to face discomfort.
Hazrat Imam Ali (A.S)
A wise man first thinks and then speaks and a fool speaks first and then thinks.
Hazrat Imam Ali (A.S)
A fool’s mind is at the mercy of his tongue and a wise man’s tongue is under the control of his mind.
I am ISI agent, I am jamatia, I was jamiat terrorist…….
it is very easy to labell anyone , if he speaks against these liberal fascists and baboo brigade on this forum. huhhhhhhh. But I am surprised that Jamiat is “against ” to increase educational budget. Is it true?
The fact is total public spending on education (by federal, provincial and district government) comes to 2.21% of GDP during the year 2005-06.
It is really easy to label anyone to anything but neglect the root cause of problem and neglect why not babooo beureucracy and baboo politician increase in educational budget?
ohhhhhh ,,,, there is enough material to label me jamatia or jamiat “terrorist”….
pejamistri@
(December 23rd, 2008 at 9:25 am)
“the politicians are in better position to deal with army than their predecessors”.
——————————————–
I wish and hope that your expectations comes true. However, I think you are too optimistic.
Overall, level of political leadership, awareness of an average political worker and most importantly, faith and confidence of masses on political leadership is much much weaker than in the past.
In the past we had intellactual, progressive writers who, one by one have gone (like Jalib, Faiz etc.) and were not even given chance to produce substitute for themselves. They were beaten and send to exile. They were replaced by right wingers pseudointellactuals who have fabricated our history and worked to falsify the political basis of 47 partition.
We had progressive students, labour union and professionals etc. All such forums have been destroyed and given in the hands of right wing vultures.
Political parties, which were progressive like PPP by themselves has leaders like Rahman Malik, Babar Awan and etc. substituting Sheikh Rasheed, Dr. Mubashir Hassan, Mairaj etc. of past. They are willing to batray their own people as efficiently as Jamatis of the past.
This pathetic leadership and acts of so called liberals has forced many good people to develop expectations from NS and IK. It is all due to a big vacuum of leadership in liberal wings by themselves that people, their intellact and emotion are in the hands of partially intellectulized, half mullah, half liberal, semi confused leadership like IK.
@mibrahim
I have touched the subject which is so closed to my heart. I have developed this theory over the past many years (since 1998/99) and several times I have felt it is correct.
Though your arguments are very strong and prima facie they seems very right. In fact what you said is absolutely correct. Let me first support your arguments by my own examples.
Level of political leadership is indeed lower than past , for example in the battle against dictatorship we used to have political leaders like Nawabzada Nasurrallah Khan , he will always be able to unite the people and parties with divergent views.
Political workers are really confused , their trust in political leadership MIGHT BE lesser than before..
There is no way I can disagree with you that there is a frightening dearth of intellectuals, literary figures and artists. Our art industry has touched abysmal lows , their is no cinema , no films, very little theaters … instead we have a lot mullahs (Naiks, Qadris, Isrars, Ghamdis and many many more) running in show biz (remember Bolta Pakistan).
And of course student unions, labor unions are non existent , students learning terrorism in colleges, students.
…..
But this is only one side of the coin, turn it over and you will find…
1. Though we don’t have people like Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan who can unite the people , but we have the leaders understanding better than their predecessors to understand how to unite themselves against the dictatorship… Remember how Bhutto and Mujeeb both against the dictatorship of Ayub Khan but unable to overcome their differences (it will be hard for me to convince you if think Bhutto was with Ayub
) …. compare Bhutto and Mujeeb differences with BB and NS differences and than see how both BB and NS were able to sit together.
…
2. Though political workers are confused , but their confusion is not due to lack of knowledge but their better understanding of the political leadership , abundant knowledge through the electronic media , and better understanding of history. Look at the recent struggle for the judiciary you will see why it has not been violent and have not lead to chaos (remember 1969, 1971, 1977 and even Tahreek-e-Nijat) … now we have workers who may not be emotional and steadfast but have a lot more courage to stand against the dictators…
3. Their lack of trust in political leadership is quite natural , they may be reluctant to stand behind their leadership , but they are ready to vote to these leaders , look at the turnout in the recent elections… this shows how much active political workers are..
4. I have no answer to the dearth of intellectuals…. I wish we still had Faiz , Jalib, etc… I wish we still had them
5. With the demise of left politics I am not sure lack of union activities in industrial sector have much impact.. but with communication revolution I believe that people (both industrial workers and students) have much better understanding of their problems , they are much more vocal as well. I agree with you however that lack of unions in educational institution s is not good…
……….
I wish I could complete this work , however I am sure that political awareness in people of Pakistan is much higher than many of their contemporary nations.. you know what Pakistan is one of few countries (or perhaps the only country) where the news and current affairs programs are more popular than dramas and supports, they earn more revenue than commercial programs..
…
Apologies for typos and mistakes..
I’m happy to see that even the BEARDO’s have started to at least Try to make sense instead of lazy ad hominem attacks a’la (“fulaana hindu/qadiani hai”, “filaana BJ hai”, blah blah)
Pakistani Nationalists Strike Again!
tsssssssssssssssss!
pejamistri@
—————————————
Still I would consider it is too optimistic approach. First let me make clear that I don’t mean to antagonize you or doing BAHAS BARA-E-BAHAS. In fact, I am in agreement with most of your arguments. Still I would add certain crucial factors.
No doubt that people are dying for a change and are willing to throw their heart & soul for a better change therefore following media closely and particicipating in so called democratic process.
BUT
My argument was and I still maintain that due to destruction of previous forums, at student labour and intellactual level, these are all ill guided. Tell me where those people who were yelling, screaming against mullahs and dictatorship will go now when they will see back door deals between so called liberals and establishment. The method liberals used to come in power is to some extent identical to that full of shame and sh!t method of Mujlis-e-shoora of past. It is pushing people to seek other plateforms like IK, NS etc. who don’t have any depth in their thought process and therefore are clueless by themselve.
—————————————–
“Bhutto and Mujeeb both against the dictatorship of Ayub Khan but unable to overcome their differences”
——————————————–
Remember movement of 1967. Every single group of people, farmers, labours, students, clerks, professionals, poets, artist was behind political leadership and a dictator with such a strong hold has to surrender.
Now compare political standing and struggle of middle class of for example Karachi, during this struggle against dictator to recent past love making of them with Musharraf regime. How disgusting!!!!. How their awareness and brightness got poisoned. It is simply hopeless.
——————————————-
‘Look at the recent struggle for the judiciary’
——————————————-
Again the same fact.People were not behind political leadership. Political parties wanted to use CJ as vehicle to acheive their ends which they failed to acheive because of their un papularity in masses. Their face was so mutilated in view of common man that they were willing to see horrible face of dictator without any significant complains untill March 09/07. In fact dictator enjoyed quiet nice time and ruled effortlessly from Oct. 99 to March 07. There was no contribution of politicians to reveal true disgusting face of dictator,nor there was any reflection that people are following their political leaders.
Top most leadership kept in exile for number of years and they failed to bring people on street.
Now after transient awakening, when people realized political evilness of our army, people especielly after Mumbai event, are drifting back to same old fashioned kind of arguments like
‘Islam ko khatra’
‘Hindu Tahzeeb say Khatra’,
‘Nazriya-e-Pakistan ko khatra’
‘Hum Islam Ka Qila Hain’
‘Hum seesa pilaaee howee deewar hain’
Army’s self accepted and self taken responsibility ‘Not only SARHADON KEE HIFAZAT’ but also ‘NAZRIYA-E-PAKISTAN KEE HIFAZT’ has renewed for indefinite.
BTW Pakistan is an amazing country. It was created first and it’s NAZARIYA was formulated and manupulated later just to give mullahs an edge over progressive forces and to give Army an excuse to conquer their own country for NAZARYA-E-PAKISTAN KEE HIFAZAT.
@mibrahim
I think we are in agreement , I am not going to refute any of the facts stated. I have a very optimistic approach in terms of Pakistan’s political class (both leaders and workers) , I have very strong reasons to believe in my conviction.
It is quite natural that army would exploit the false patriotic feelings of “urban middle” class, that is why they decided to play on the back foot , but the thing that gives me hope is the political acumen of the politicians involved.
My pessimism starts only when I think what a desperate army might do when it sees the possible extinction of its hegemony.
pejamistri@
I don’t see any politician with any political acumen.
@mibrahim
You are pessimist
pejamistri@
Thanks for compliments
@mibrahim
You are welcome
Seriously though this debate is very subjective in nature, the arguments in opposition of the political class are easier to accept than arguments in their favor.
I have some very subjective arguments , they can not be taken on their face value but on the basis of a conviction… for example you mentioned the struggle against Ayub Khan , you know what Ayub handed over the rule to Yahya Khan , where as Pervez Musharraf went without handing over it directly to another general (You see I am avoiding statement that he handed over it too politicians (i.e. AZ in Center and NS in Punjab).
There are many many such arguments… of course they are not twice twos four , there may be several counter arguments , however I being a very optimist believe that the current politicians are little better than older one (haha… saying AZ is better (in any respect) than Bhutto is a blasphemy
I know that ..)
pejamistri@
I would again humbly request you to come out of your dreamland.
I have lot of sympathy for people like who are seeing their sincere dreams and hopes breaking in to pieces again and again and mixed with soil and dirt.
I wish that your optimism turn out to be right, although odds are against this.
Accepting reality is not passimism.
@mibrahim
There is no dreamland and there is no disappointment either , as a matter of fact people like me are in better position to struggle for the ideals that we always had , we are always happy over our little successes , we always have a vision , I am just very small worker , the one who takes part in rallies etc. and it’s been many years since I could be in Pakistan to participate in a rally… but you see there are thousands of workers and leaders who have never been disappointed. The epitome of that optimism is Aitzaz Ahsan from whom I take a lot of inspiration , you see in this age how active he was and is in the struggle for independent judiciary … do you seriously think the person who had taken part in struggle against Ayub Khan , then struggle against General Zia, should not be disappointed after seeing that he is now struggling against 3rd dictator?
But let me tell you I am not looking for quick end to this struggle , my optimism is not based on my wishful thinking ….
As a matter of fact when I see the people like yourself getting pessimist and see no lighting at the end of tunnel , I get little disappointed… your pessimism won’t lead anywhere.
pejamistri@
Please don’t take me wrong. I admire and appreciate whatever struggle you are doing.
Habib Jalib said after 1988 election and ‘arrival’of Democracy
HAALAAT WOHEE HAIN GHAREEBON KAY
DIN FAQT BADLE HAIN AMEERON KAY
APNA HALQA HAY HALQA-E-ZANJEER
BAQEE SAB HALQAY HAIN WAZEERON KAY
HAR BILAWAL HAY IS DAIS KA MAQROOZ
PAAON NANGAY HAIN BENAZEERON KAY
Jalib was declared passimist by a so called liberal wazeer of PPP. But I don’t think Jalib was passimist. What he was saying was true and was portraying reality. He was still actively struggling while expressing the real world.
@mibrahim
I understand your point.
I don’t know which minister said Jalib is pessimist , I actually remember when he recited this poem in Pindi , as a matter of fact recently AA said in an interview that he could not believe somebody can go back from the written agreements… I personally am very much disappointed by AZ on many counts…
So yes optimism goes with realism and thanks for understanding and educating me..
pejmistri@
‘I don’t know which minister’
It was Ameer Hayder Kazmi in 1989 at Dow Medical College Karachi Convocation.
@mibrahim
Thanks for the info.
I always laugh at people who (naively) think that @peja is a clueless/naive PPP operative or “jiyala”.
Nothing could be further from the real, exciting stuff
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