by Dr. Qaisar Rashid
Though there is no vivid clue available at the moment, the attack on the Police Training School, Manawan, Lahore, was speculatively a corollary of the attack on the cricket team of Sri Lanka at the Liberty Chowk, Lahore. Whether both those incidents share any resemblance with the Bombay attack is the point better left for the future to settle. What is pertinent here is that Lahore is under attack.
If it is assumed that both the incidents happened in Lahore were planned in the tribal areas and manned by the tribal people as a backlash to the gruesome situation there, an alarming picture emerges.
In a cricket-maniac country like Pakistan, an assault on a cricket team was not possible: every Pakistani was taken aback when heard that news. Probably the attackers (and the planners) were those who had no love for cricket and the cricket team. Moreover, whether the attackers wanted to take control of the bus or not, it could be speculated that the attackers wanted to highlight the menace of terrorism ravaging Pakistan. This point is anticipated in two ways. Some say that the attackers intended to project Pakistan’s name as a country marred by terrorism and where no foreigner was safe and secure. On the other hand, some say that the attackers wanted to make the central government realize its flawed policies pertaining to the ongoing ‘war on terror’ the consequences of which had been borne by the tribal belt in the shape of drone flights and subsequent missile attacks. In this regard, curse is cast on General retired Pervaiz Musharraf.
Nevertheless, in absence of all clues, a safe-guess can be made. For the past several months, especially in Punjab, the police are becoming the victim of the terrorist attacks, whether suicide or otherwise. The question is what message the attackers want to convey. Focusing on Lahore, the attack on Sri Lankan cricket team was declared a failed one but the attack on the police training school cannot be depicted so. The cricket team was a hard target indeed as the police were escorting them. The police suffered casualties. Similarly, the police training school was not a soft target but a hard one. Unless one is an insider, it could be presumed that there would be ammunition available with the police who could retaliate to frustrate any attack. Even then the attack took place: even if it is assumed that the attackers were from the tribal belt, they dared challenge the police force by entering into their locale. What message the audacious attempt of the attacker tried to convey is the biggest question challenges minds of many people.
The attack tells selection of target where the civilian casualties could be at the minimum but security forces could be challenged to air the message that the attackers are not afraid of them: if your people can come to our homes to destroy that, we can visit your area to tell you our strength. That could be the presumed message.
One can surmise that the need to attack the police training school was that the message the attackers wanted to convey by attacking the cricket team was not conveyed properly. Had the bus or the cricketers taken as hostages, the central government would have been in deep trouble to meet the demands of the attackers. Similarly, had the attackers selected any soft target, instead of the police training school, the hostage drama would not have lasted for eight hours but, understandably, for many more hours. In selection of the target and the impudent manner of attack, there are hidden many messages to perceive.
At least, one message is loud and clear: stop dropping bombs on the tribal people – immediately. For how long the ‘war on terror’ will continue? For another five years till another regime change happens in the US? How many lives this war will devour before its conclusion? How will those survive the near and dear ones of whom lose lives for no fault of theirs?
In case of Iraq, after several years, it was dawned that there existed no weapons of mass destruction; the logic to wage war on Iraq was faulty. But who is responsible for the bloodshed happened in Iraq during the course of war? What is punishment for those who committed wrong? Is it just to lose elections as Tony Blair of the UK and George Bush of the US did? That is not the answer. Losing election is not the retribution for the innocent blood spilled on other lands. Can it be? Ask those who have lost their loved ones.
Now, it is being said that al-Qaida leadership is hiding in Pakistan and the war on terror has to be fought inside Pakistan. There are those who are parroting the rhetoric that this is our war and we should fight it. Most of those orators either belong to the Musharraf school of thought or are unelected advisors and ministers of the incumbent government. It was Musharraf who kept on inviting attention of the world towards Pakistan in order to prolong his own stay at the helm of affairs. Now, at the upper echelons of power are those who have business and properties abroad; they are trying to grab attention of the world to enjoy their stay in Pakistan and accumulate wealth abroad. Only Pakistan is at lost.
By the way, what would happen if after five years of bombing and after spilling blood inside Pakistan the world declares that the information that al-Qaida is present in Pakistan is sham? Who will be held responsible for the lives lost by then? How will Pakistan recover from the loss? Will losing next election by Gordon Brown of the UK and Barak Obama of the US sufficient? Again, will losing elections be the retribution for the innocent blood spilled on the Pakistani land? Ask those who are in the line of fire.
In Lahore, the lawyers used to take procession on the Mall road every Thursday for two years. In the meantime, no bomb exploded and no attack took place to hurt them. During the Long March on March 15, there were millions of Lahorites on the roads en route to Islamabad. That was the best possible opportunity for the terrorists to claim a number of casualties. They did not do so. This point airs the message that the terrorists are not against the common Pakistanis.
The question is why the attackers are selective in their targets and what message they want to convey? But then, why no one is ready to listen to them? Are the Pakistanis waiting for the time when the soft target – name any – is hit in the name of counter-war on terrorism? Wake up! The ‘war on terror’ is not Pakistan’s war. It is time to show solidarity with the people inhabiting the tribal belt.
Dr. Qaisar Rashid, you are saying that the attacks in Lahore were a “backlash to the gruesome situation there ” (in FATA). Are you out of your mind? And shame on Pkpolitics to publish such an inaccurate and biased commentery that has nothing but a rant and rave of a twisted mind.
What planet do you live in? Do the talibans have to show up at your house to explain to you personally that they really do not care about anybody or anything. I hope thay do. Those being killed by talibans, be that fellow tribesmen or police recurits, aren’t they “common Pakistanis”?
What did the people of sawat do? They are not pakistani’s. Doctor you nothing but a coward that hops that if I close my eyes the monster might go away. Well keep praying…
@brumby
It’s not a coincidence that Imran Khan’s new talking points include “When is this ‘war on terror’ going to end?” and this article shows up on pkpolitics. There appears to be some avid readers of this blog who belong to ‘Movement of Justice’
party.
By the way, the Obama administration is trying to answer Imran Khan’s question. The simple answer is given by a the Democratic Congressional Campaign Comm. head:
“It’s not just a war on a tactic. It’s really a war on a very particular group of people,”…… “I think what they’re doing is applying it to the particular war we’re fighting, which, right now, is aimed at dealing with Al Qaeda and the Taliban.”
His explanation is due to Clinton’s assertion on narrowing the war. The war is actually be narrowed rather than being widened. Unfortunately, the narrowing is going to happen in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Here is the article where i got this from:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20791.html
Nobody who is behind these attacks will ever come on the Tv & say ‘Mere Hamwatano, . . . .I am behind these attacks & the purpose is . . . .’ We are either stupid or naive not to know or understand the India, USA & Russia have always wanted our army to engage the local Pakistanis to the extent that it gets badlly embroiled intercene warfare with it’s own people.
Their ‘purpose’ has been ’spelled-out’ AGAIN & AGAIN in the world & our local media which is to weaken our army & people to that extent that it is not in a position to face the one & only enemy, India, once it again attacks in to God-forbid ‘dismember’ whatever is left of this country.
The enemy’s planners have kept on trying to achieve ‘that purpose’ through both our civilian/military rulers since partition in 1947, some times bringing in weak & corrupt civilians, while at other times ‘idiots’ like Ayub Khan, Zia-ul-Haq & the last idiot & SOB called Mush.
But Allah is also watching. Sooner of later Allah will send a reedemer to ‘FIX ALL THE BAD GUYS’ as that SOB Bush used to say.
@SnrCtzn
But Allah is also watching. Sooner of later Allah will send a reedemer to ‘FIX ALL THE BAD GUYS’ as that SOB Bush used to say.
Allah is definity watching…She/He is watching the muslims destroy themselves. Led by some Senior Citizens. Your enemy is not India, it’s you yourself.
@SnrCrzn
Here is your enemy:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=2
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=3
These are your friends:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=6
These are the people effected:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=8
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=1
The jihadi generation has graduated from madarsah’s and is gradually taking control of Pakistan to implement their nefarious designs.
Unfortunately, large majority of people in the country have been brain washed to believe that India/US and rest of the western world are conspiring against us. Our corrupt leaders on the other hand are making most of the situation by pretending to be steadfast against fight to eliminate terror, but practically doing nothing.
“It is time to show solidarity with the people inhabiting the tribal belt.”
This is the only sentence of your article that i could agree with. You can show them solidarity by donating 10% of your income to go directly for development projects in the tribal areas. You can show solidarity by donating your time (if you are a medical doctor) by going to the tribal areas and trying to set-up a hospital. If you are PHD, you can go to the tribal areas and try to see where you can set-up a school.
What doesn’t show solidarity is providing rationale to the terrorists to continue their activites….
I could not agree more with the underlying message of this Article “It is time to show solidarity with the people inhabiting the tribal belt”.
We can not just leave these people at the mercy of Alien powers playing their dirty games and hope once their thirst for blood is quenched the rest of us inhabiting the more developed parts of the country would be spared. Two major flaws with this strategy;
1) It gives rise to genuine greivances that can be exploited by anyone and these people can be used against the rest of Pakistan, which we see happening virtually everyday.
2) It renders the whole concept of a “nation” meaningless as we are willing to ignore the aspirations of a good portion of our population just because it is more convenient tow the line of World powers and too hard to stand up for our own people.
Pursuing this essentially deceitful policy has not made Pakistan any safer and it will make us only weaker if we continue with the same fallacioius policy based on cowardice and malice.
bho,
Why you are so keen to put India out of our enimies lists. We have lots of short comings but that will not change the fact that India never accepted Pakistan from the day one. They have a dream of Akhand Bharat.
Please read this,
http://jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/02-04-2009/main3.htm
“2) It renders the whole concept of a “nation” meaningless as we are willing to ignore the aspirations of a good portion of our population just because it is more convenient tow the line of World powers and too hard to stand up for our own people.”
Words like nation, state, aspirations, and our populations is bunch of BS when it come to the tribal areas. Truth hurts, but Pakistan has just no or nominal control over the ‘tribal belt’.
I am referring to Indian activities in Afghanistan. I wont be surprised if This Baitulla guy is getting funds from Indea.
@amirkhan
First, stop reading Jang. Second, the bridge to Akhand Baharat is called TALIBAN. The rakhwalas of Pakistan know that as well as anyone else. There are several complexities within that context, but the way i look at it:
Road to Akhand Baharat = TALIBAN
@SNRCTZN,who the hell u r?why u always try to shift attention from talban to india,usa and israel.are you a senior talban leader if u not then stop supporting those beasts.
@bho
In a city called Karachi there is a certain area Lyari and Gangs are free to brazenly engage in butchering of each other using the same kinds of weapons the people in FATA have access to. Should USA be allowed to bomb Karachi and its problematic areas, going by your logic?
This false sense of security we get out of towing America’s line just because it is convenient is leading the country to destruction from with-in.
bho,
I read many news papers included Jang also the one own by gov punjab. Analyzing the information comes later.
I would suggest to analyze what ever you read. Some times news is between the lines or behind the lines.
Talibans are “karai ke Foji” any body could use them after paying the price.
For me my enemy is enemy what ever name it has does not mater.
Talibans and their supporters are killers and enemy of Pakistan, period.
Pak aid bill in US Congress delayed till late April,,,,,,,,,,,,the news
hammmmmmmmmmmmmm
English Speach winner Ghaddari nd his rubbish Cabinet may get stroke..
We are ready to loose $35 billion in war of terror and happy to beg for 1.5 billion in return..
this war of terror is not going to end as US has ineterest in it also our cabinet ….
In support of my comments (as above,) I recommend an article by Dr. A.P.Sangdil from Norway, as reported in ‘The Post’ of 01/4/9 as a ‘Message from a neocon’ who is SURPRISED HOW Douglas Feith, a former secretary under that (SOB) Donald Rumsfield LAMENTS ‘ Sufism is on the wane in Fata & Swat’ after the Taliban attack on the shrine of Rahman Baba.
This was the same Rums field, he further says, who once said ‘we do not count the dead’ against who many world organizations demanded a ‘trial for war crimes.’He points out this guy Feith while serving that SOB, was the ‘architect’of the war in Iraq & Afghanistan.
He further, rightly says, “what the underlings of the empire advocate is (that) we practice Sufism while thet occupy our territories & plunder or resources. We sing Qawalis & dance while they kill our men women & children.
Finally, he says ‘before his ‘noble’ sentiments touch sensitive citizens, they must realize the ‘doublespeak’ behind the agenda that motivates him to outpour his ‘gracious feeling.’
@ bho.
It is advisable that DO NOT, I REPEAT HERE AGAIN, DO NOT, NEVER, EVER, become personal while discussing a topic. If you do not know nor you have never learn t manners, then do so from your elders, like your father,etc, if you have one.
Our enemy is certainly NOT Senior Citizens, because if that was so, then you must be having a ’senior’ in your family? Or you dont have?
Our enemy ARE SCUMS OF THE EARTH like you, who dont know WHO GAVE them birth, as a result of which they ‘landed’ here, on God’s earth?
@bho
“@SnrCrzn
Here is your enemy:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=2
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=3
These are your friends:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=6
These are the people effected:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=8
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4777&page=1”
“@amirkhan
First, stop reading Jang.”
Wow bho! maybe you ought to stop reading ‘Foreign Policy Magazine’ but I know you won’t follow that advice. But thanks for letting us know where you picture of reality comes from. Being spoon fed just one world view is so convinient, isn’t it?
@bho
Are you from India? no offense but It would be easy to argue and understand each others, if we know our positions.
We dont need to answer US what we are doing We should Answer this nation What we are doing
Us will pull out when ever its sees not inerest here but we can we have to stay here in Pak land so our policy should be to protect this land and its people not the western world
@nota
“Being spoon fed just one world view is so convinient, isn’t it?”
Are you kidding me man/woman? I am on pkpolitics, right? Anything that was spoon fed on foreignpolicy.com would need to be pumped out of the stomach at pkpolitcs.com. I was just browsing and saw the pictures and decided to show our SnrCtzn friend some of them.
@savage
Are you asking or accusing? Muslim, Karachi, Pakistan. My Islam starts and ends with Hazrat Khadija and her vast trading businesses.
@bho
That was a question not accusation.
Interesting, mine starts and ends with Muhammad p.b.u.h.
bho,
Do not worry about me. I can see where you are coming from. Just tell me what is bothering you may be I can help.I will try to answer your questions one by one. But do not use this routine do this or do that.
If I may my advise to you is to broaden your reading and read what ever you could. But do not believe blindly what you read.
@savage
Hazrat Khadija became a muslim after the Prophet P.B.U.H. If i am accepting her as a muslim, then i should be inside the circle (unless i am not according to some twisted sharia).
bho,
Are you out of your mind. You are “Kahan ki kahan mila Rahi ho”.
There is another person who is master in that. You know him don’t you. Come out of closet and express your self openly.
@bho
I’ll keep it simple I’m Muslim and follow Quran and Hadith.
پاکستان دہشتگردی کا مرکز: منموہن سنگھ
http://jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/01-04-2009/up97.gif
Are they not speaking the same tongue, I really really doubt that it is a mare coincident.
savege,
No use buddy that news is from Jang.
Our friend “bho..” only reads foreign policy magazine it appears
Imran Khan = Maghribzada
*savege “savage”
@bho
Go play with your barbie doll.
I wasted 3 mins of precious time replying to your mindless junk, turns out, you may not even be a Pakistani, lecturing us on who our enemy is and who are friends are.
What does Bho stand for, let me guess, Brainless Halluciganic Ostritch.
Apologies for getting a little personal but mate please talk sense or don’t talk at all.
Yup, i am Gen. Petreaus
bho,
“Imran Khan = Maghribzada”
And next you say Mera Qaid hei Altaf Husain
@hadi26
Oh yeah, anything that makes sense is mind less junk. All i need to do is write, I love Taliban on this forum, and see the love…
@amirkhan
Altaf Hussein? I thought you were accusing me of not being a Pakistani?
Imran Khan is the ultimate Maghribzada and the most insecure person in politics at this point.
@bho
Even your liberal fascist friend Mushy is on records saying there’s credible information of Indian involvement in FATA and Balochistan. This new liberal nexus manufactured in America is not there to serve the people of pakistan but their masters in Washington instead. They won’t get their billions w/o licking the boots.
bho ,
I have not accused you for any thing.
“Chor ki dari mein tinka”
bho,
And Altaf is British citizen.
Why everybody seems so synced up.
US military commander says Afghanistan war could spill over the border
Pakistani Taliban threatens White House
If India was so concerned about regional peace and stability then why did they create LTTE in Lanka? They are much closer to Indian border than Afghanistan. Why are they so conernced about the stability of Afghan and decided to ‘DONATE’ billions in rebuilding projects?
Come on, are you playing naive?
@amirkhan
“And Altaf is British citizen.”
And so are Imran Khan’s kids.
Dude, Imran Khan ticks me off because he mentioned on 2 TV shows today as to when this ‘war on terror’ is going to end. Well, even the Americans are trying to avoid using that phrase. And his solutions to the problem seem like childs play, not practical, and unsustainable for Pakistan if it is to exist as nation state. The Shireen Mazari model is the ultimate highway to destruction for Pakistan.
Secondly, i believe Imran is the ultimate fake, or a really confused twisted person. He has his kids living outside Pakistan and sends them to school in the UK, while supporting the same people who are trying to blow up things from UK to the USA. His but* buddy Baithullah just threatned to blow up the White House. What if Baithullah says tomorrow that he is going to blow up every school in the UK? Does Imran Khan think before he babbles?
“Chor ki dari mein tinka”
I shave man. Don’t even have a mouch.
India is smuggling chemicals to Afghanistan, whicn is used for Heroin making. And which helps in funding ……………..
My dear bho
Why are you wasting time arguing with them. Normally, I try to walk at a good distance from anything that might splash onto my shirt and make it dirty.
But seeing you fighting alone, I came to this thread to let you know that your viewpoint has my whole hearted support.
My good man Brumby is one of us also. He said what he had to say, and then left.
@nota
People like ‘bho’ are Bhaos like Haqqani and RM.
Ignore, ignore, ignore.
@savage
“Why everybody seems so synced up.
US military commander says Afghanistan war could spill over the border
Pakistani Taliban threatens White House”
Cause what is a movie without a proper set up. I think we are entering the final stages of the movie. Every thing is being set up for the grand “action say bharpoor” finale… Ready for some “Boom! Boom!!”?
(I was just talking about it here)
@pak.nukes
“Ignore, ignore, ignore.”
Believe me I try my hardest
@czar
So bho is not the only one? Welcome to the world of Taliban.:)
Right nota?
@nota
I just saw your post on Ahmed Rashid. Now there is a journalist/columnist/just another very connected opinionated person/writer/analyst who trying to make a living.
You accuse him of being a CIA agent? What position in the government did he or does he hold that will give him access to the information that CIA needs? It’s just one of your another twisted allegation trying to cofuse poeople? Ahmed Rashid was one of the journalist that met with Barack Obama before he was inaugurated. If he was a CIA agent, he wouldn’t be meeting the President-Elect of the United States and then the news of this meeting being made public….
He is just another writer who is trying to sell his work. Just like Hamid Mir and Daktur Sahab, he also put’s ‘tarkas’ on his analysis.
@pak.nukes
“People like ‘bho’ are Bhaos like Haqqani and RM”
No, i am working on a super computer, which can control brains…..RM has sold his soul, for money ofcourse, and Hussain Haqqani is in some kind of quasi cleansing from Jamatia mode.
Instead of talking back and forth with bho, let’s stay with the program, what is in the best interest of the humanity and Pakistani people. Every one is born with an ass hole and an opinion, bho’s opinion and his ass hole are mixed-up, let him sort it out, one day he will find the right end.
One has to be thankful, that at least NS gave a statement about Obama which is close to the opinion of the Pakistani people of this neo-unicorn, the new black Jesus of the plant. Any one can standup and blaming, accusing and threatening the sixth largest and nuclear armed county and there is no one to defend it.
Even pocket puppet Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan has grown balls to threaten Pakistan and 100 year old forty five pound dummy token minority prime minster of India with alling hart is yelling his lungs out against the Pakistan and current un-government?of pppp in the Pakistan has its tail between their legs with no response. We need Imran Khan and NS to speak for the people not the mentally and morally unstable Zardari………
even india ,usa and israel are our enemies but thy are out of our reach.if they doing any thing in pakistan they are doing through talban,so eliminate talban,all ur problems are solved.i bet it pakistan will be a peacefull nation with out talban.any body who support talban,is even worst than indian and israelies.
My request to you all on this site who care about Pakistan…….
…….Dear Admin to PKpolitics, I would strongly recommend to create a long-term discussion forum to counter the current on slot of Manufacturing Consent For Attacks On Pakistan by the western media and current ruling foreign agents in the Pakistan Government.
Pakistani civil society must confront this hyper war hysteria such as propagated by the Indian Government and the Western warmonger and war criminals.
World must see Pakistan as epicentre of terror: PM
Wednesday, 01 April , 2009, 18:54
Last Updated: Wednesday, 01 April , 2009, 18:56
London: Declaring Pakistan as the “epicentre” of world terrorism, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has urged the world’s most powerful countries to rid both Pakistan and Afghanistan of terrorism.
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14877612&?vsv=TopHP1
US issues bulletin on threat from Pakistan
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090401/ap_on_go_ot/us_pakistan_1
Is Pakistan Really Double Dealing?
http://pakistankakhudahafiz.wordpress.com/2009/03/31/is-pakistan-really-double-dealing/
Suspected US drone strike in Pakistan kills 12
http://blog.taragana.com/n/suspected-us-drone-strike-in-pakistan-kills-12-24259/
Petraeus: Military Reserves ‘Right of Last Resort’ for Threats Inside Pakistan
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/30/petraeus-military-reserves-right-resort-threats-inside-pakistan/
This on slot of propaganda is in the past few days and getting worse by the day. Pakistan’s current government has capitulated to the foreign agents, it’s time for a long march to defend the honor and dignity of the country and it can only be done by peaceful but assertive communication and pressure on the current corrupt to the core leaders of PPPP and a foreign agent Altaf the son of a B#*&h, and MQM….
@bho
You impressed this board with your know all disease & your gem of wisdom are to many to count.
Your knowledge is unmatched & outstanding, your disclosure IK is supporting suicide bombars specially kidz need not to be verified by his exclusive statement, your word is enough, what happened to these stupid Americans why they are not listening to you.
No matter what, you have established your expertese on this board, in USA usually such genius are treated in mental assylum.
Your descend on this board is nothing but
Bhugwan ki kirpa
Your wisdom is nothing but
Bhugwan ka Sharaap
@jazoo
The next think tank of Obama regime must have Bhao and Czar, perhaps democrate can be given the task of yelling ‘zardari zindabad, pakistan murdabad.
@bho (Barak Hussain Obama)?
“President Barack Obama has ended years of “veto power” wielded by Pakistan in Afghanistan over India’s active involvement in the country
post-Taliban, a US expert on South Asia has said”
Dude, wake up and smell the coffee
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Thanks-to-Obama-India-will-now-have-a-say-in-Afghanistan/articleshow/4348088.cms
@Democrate
Your simplistic logic of killing all the bad guys to make the world a good place reminds me of my last president the most intelligent and scholarly person on earth G. W. Bush,” me good me talk to Jesus you bad you don’t talk to Jesus me kill you”……..Any one who does not agree with the policy of the West is a Taliban in Pakistan and 95% -exception of MQM and some grave worshipping loony’s of PPPP, the majority does not agree with the American policies in the area and the world. Now with your logic they all should be killed so MQM and alike of the 5% live happily ever after in greater India?
when american people chose thier president who is balck and has hassain in the middle of the name,all world got the message,america is not racist country and america is not against muslims but muslims could,nt undersatnd it and they will not.every country wanted to be friend of america but only muslims want to be enemy of america,no wonder even muslims are left behind hindus too,thats shame.
@bho
“You accuse him of being a CIA agent? What position in the government did he or does he hold that will give him access to the information that CIA needs? It’s just one of your another twisted allegation trying to cofuse poeople? Ahmed Rashid was one of the journalist that met with Barack Obama before he was inaugurated. If he was a CIA agent, he wouldn’t be meeting the President-Elect of the United States and then the news of this meeting being made public….”
That bit above has so many flaws that I don’t know where to begin. It sure shows your complete ignorance of the subject you claim to be the master of so I’ll take @pak.nukes advise and “ignore, ignore, ignore”
BTW: that “No, i am working on a super computer, which can control brains” retort was pure genius
@pak.nukes
“@czar
So bho is not the only one?”
And sad to say they are hardly the only two….
@nota
Basic requirement for a CIA agent is that his/her ID should must not be known.
Perhaps our genius in hand bho is confused between CIA agent & CIA official.
But no blame goes to bho, in his disease of know all what he knows is fact & thats all, patient knows everything what he needs to know.
Bho is like an insect inside a rotten apple who thinks this rotten apple is all his universe, he does not know there are thousands of apple on the same tree & there are thousnds of tree in the same garden ad there are thoudands of Gardens of apples.
But not knowing all these facts does not disqualify & cure him of his disease of know all.
I dont see any wrong with the artical and indeed some thing pro-pakistan.
Whatever @bho selling here is driving crazy. Lets love Pakistan and its people, not foreigners by the virtue of so-called liberation.
A must read article
By Ramtanu Maitra
31 March, 2009
Countercurrents.org
This is the second and final installment of a two-part article; the first part appeared in the March 25 issue. Read Part I
Pakistan’s western provinces, Balochistan, the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), and the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), are in the midst of a violent upheaval caused immediately by the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in the Winter of 2001. The U.S. invasion, which was joined later by a number of NATO countries, and some assistance from a few non-NATO nations, was designed to capture, or eliminate, the alleged masterminds behind the 9/11 attack in the United States, and also to remove the Afghan Taliban regime that had provided shelter to the al-Qaeda militants.
The invasion failed in the sense that the al-Qaeda militants moved eastward across the undefined Durand Line that separates Afghanistan from Pakistan, and the Afghan Taliban dispersed from Kabul and other cities, to rural areas where they have fully re-built themselves, posing a serious threat to the foreign troops inside Afghanistan.
http://www.countercurrents.org/maitra310309.htm
i think the gentle got the message totally wrong.
if he thinks that the message of this attack is “At least, one message is loud and clear: stop dropping bombs on the tribal people – immediately”
this is absolutely wrong.
even if you stop attacking on them there, they will still come and fight with you.
i will remind you of Pakistan when most of these Jihadies were engaged in a War in Kashmir and Afghanistan and they were doing the same BUT US was not doing drone attack on them.
few of them {SSP, Jaish-e-Mohammad, Laskher-e-Jhagvi] was ivolved in gruesome Sectarian Violence in 1990s.
if the writer is old enough to remember 1990s he will remember the name of RIAZ BASSR, AKRAM LAHORI, FRAOOQI, and others who were killing opposite sect left right and center.
bottom line is no matter what ever you do they will not stop killing people whom they dnt agree with. Pakistan and US are not doing drone attacks in SWAT and still there is Violence going on, they are getting themselves re-organised and attacked their houses and innocent people.
Its a war my friend , the earlier we fix them is better for you.
Lahore after Mumbai… many meddled links behind starting from Mumbai via afghanistan, taliban etc etc etc
swat yosufzai said:
Imran Khan once said in tv programm
========this is not war on terror ,,,,this is war of terror….
“The War For Terror”
I agree with Imran Khan, This is a blatant terror , occupation, colonization against one of the poorest and least developed people in the world by the most advanced and rich “Gang of Eurocentric” or white people. I will like to add that I have been calling this war as “war for terror”, because this whole thing is based on lies” white lies”, Nato and American/Canadians are there for the self-interests in Central Asian oil/gas and to keep their hegemony in the central Asia for strategic reasons. The drone attackes are to instigate response and continuation of the Nato/US/Canadian agenda.
Now the West is Implementing its agenda with the help of blackmailed/neutered/ sold-out/ foreign agent Asif Ali Zardari, The egomaniacal/ narcissistic/ Psychopath and compulsive liar and his grave worshiping party of Lonny’s, are crossing the line of treason to the country of Pakistan. Secret meetings with foreign agents by a president of a country is a treason, bring the details pertaining to the security of a country on television is treason, keep the illegal judiciary for one year is treason, NRO is treason……….
As I have been saying that these drone attacks are “war for terror”, this may be a good read supporting my point of view…..
Darkness Renewed
Terror as a Tool of Empire
By Chris Floyd
Eagle-eyed Jason Ditz at Antiwar.com draws the connection between this policy and the most recent “asymmetrical” strike by a “tickled” terrorist group in Pakistan: the deadly attack on a police center in Lahore by the Tehreek-e Taliban Pakistan (TTP). The group, led by Baitullah Mehsud, said the attack was in retaliation for the American campaign of drone strikes in Pakistan’s frontier regions – strikes which have killed many civilians along with usually unidentified “militants.” As Ditz notes, one goal of the campaign – which has been intensified by Barack Obama – is precisely the aforementioned fomenting of terrorist activity:
The Obama Administration has launched an ever growing number of attacks in the FATA, generally aimed at Mehsud’s training facilities in North and South Waziristan. In September, then-CIA Director Michael Hayden said the attacks were an attempt to “provoke a reaction” from the militant groups led by Mehsud. It appears that now, six months later, they have finally done so. [Hayden described this bloodsoaked strategy as "tickling" terrorists into a response.]
What’s more, Mehsud has now vowed to carry the fight back to American soil. As The Times notes (via Antiwar.com):
“Soon we will launch an attack in Washington that will amaze everyone in the world,” [Mehsud declared.] “The maximum they can do is martyr me. But we will exact our revenge on them from inside America.”
Whether or not the rag-tag TTP could actually carry out such a threat is another matter, as Juan Cole notes. But that is not really the point. The point is that once again, a violent group has been knowingly prodded into murderous action. Even better, it has now set itself up as a “deadly terrorist threat” to the sacred Homeland itself: yet another made-to-order supervillain from central casting.
And remarkably, this new, open threat to bring terror to the American heartland comes just days after Barack Obama announced his vaunted surge in the Af-Pak War, citing – what else? – the need to protect the United States from terrorists based in Afghanistan and Pakistan as his chief reason for escalating and expanding the conflict. Yet another astonishing coincidence to justify the militarist agenda, which needs a constant supply of PR-plausible villains and hyped-up, nation-rattling threats like a junkie needs smack. And once again, we are left to puzzle out the varying proportion of connivance, acquiescence, exploitation, luck, etc., involved in this serendipitous pairing of declarations from Obama and Mehsud.
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/3/1733-darkness-renewed-terror-as-a-tool-of-empire.html
The Obama Deception HQ Full length version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw&feature=related
@All
Follwing are the excerpts from a detailed magazine piece published by NYT
Over the course of the next seven years, while his wife was in and out of power, he appears to have spent his time making himself immensely wealthy. He bought a 355-acre estate south of London and an apartment in London, among other properties. Investigators once found an account at Citibank with more than $40 million in it. The revenue for all this is widely believed to have come from bribes; Zardari became known as “Mr. 10 Percent.” He came to be seen as well as something of a thug: among the notorious tales from that time that Pakistanis love repeating to one another was one from 1990, when Zardari supposedly strapped a bomb to a man’s leg and forced him to withdraw millions of rupees from his bank account. Saeed Minhas, the Islamabad editor of Daily Aajkal, first met Zardari at this time and was shocked to discover, upon being hugged by him, that Zardari had a pistol tucked into his salwar kameez.
Among the many court cases mounted against Zardari and his wife were one in Switzerland claiming that he had received illegal commissions in exchange for awarding contracts to two Swiss companies and another for supposedly taking bribes from a Dubai-based gold-bullion dealership.Pakistani investigative officials claimed that the Bhutto family and associates took in more than $1.5 billion”
Does anyone know who was the victim of Zardari’s gangsterism? Also, are they refferting to ARY group tycoon for that gold-bullion dealership?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/magazine/05zardari-t.html?pagewanted=5&_r=1&ref=world
@nota, @pak.nukes, @hadi26, @Jazoo
It is quite rare that I see an “educated” person write so much cr@p.
BHOu Billa is certainly a “parha likha jahil”
Ignore, ignore and ignore….I will also try my level best
And thanks to Qaisar Rashid for the thought provoking article. Good points!
“Wake up! The ‘war on terror’ is not Pakistan’s war. It is time to show solidarity with the people inhabiting the tribal belt.”
And welcome to Qaisar Rashid to the “Taliban lover” club
I think it is time we came together as a nation realised the greater strategic game being played at Pakistans expense. For those who are in favour for carrying out this war. What do you want the army to do? Carpet bomb the tribal belt? Look, if it is a matter of a few hundred Al-Qaeda members and top Taliban officals then why do you not suggest hit squads. No country in their right mind instigates a war within its own borders. Many in the US argued that police action was needed to deal with Al-Qaeda but obviously the US govt had other designs. We must insist on a Pakistan Solution. However much you bow and oblidge the US it will never be enough. Our soverenignty means nothing now.
By the way an Afghan Offical stated that India is using Afghanistan to destablize Pakistan.
i hope you understand the word “SUPPOSEDLY”.
And these allegations [true or false] are based on media reports by the notorious SAIF UR REHMAN estabsaaaab cortes.
@faria
“However much you bow and oblidge the US it will never be enough.”
You are right. I don’t have numbers on how many times the following phrase “You need to do more” has been repeated by the “friends of Pakistan”. It is a phrase they intend to stop the use of, when they reach their goals i.e. with the destruction (God forbid) of Pakistan.
That was a lame dodge buddy. Need I clarify my very simple question?
Some one mentioned that one of Afghan Official said that
India is using Afghan Soil to Destablize Pak…
Can you plaese give us link where you got this news from …
i want to read the full report …
thanks
unstable Pakistan is NOT in the interest of INDIA.
that’s a fact.
they have seen that they [with the help of our own AYUB KHAN] created Bangladesh and now its a big problem for them.
in an UNSTABLE Pakistan more Jihadies will flourish and more hard line fighters for INDIA , and we all know their stated aim.
“India Ki Barbadii Tak JANG Rahaygi JAng Rahaygi”.
i think its in INDIAN interests that Pakistan remain stable and ‘keep a lid’ on all this mess.
I always believed that for INDIA ZARDARI/NAWAZ SHARIF are much better to deal with rather than Qazi Hussain [sorry Munawer Hasssan now], Hameed Gul, Sufi Muhammad, Bait Ullah Mehsood or Mullah Fazal Ullah.
You need to understand that ANY democratic leader of PAKISTAN will not use nukes on India [even in a war].
but the Mullahs will use NUKES on them with even telling them.
because they says
“we have to take revenge of our brothers killed by Indians in Kashmir”
India has option to choose between
zardari/nawaz Vs Lashker-toiba/tehrik-etliban/lashker-e-Jhangvi
i dnt think they are so idiots to choose the later
Yes, madam faria.
The answer is carpet bombing. Declare: you’re with us, or against us. Provide: shelter and amenities for all non-taliban in the settled areas, and give a month for non-combatants to come to these shelters. Then start bombing – carpet bombing, till death do us part.
@aly
“but the Mullahs will use NUKES on them with even telling them.”
Until now NO mullah has used nukes and nor have they access to ANY bomb. The only abuser of this terrible weapon is the “democracy fighter” USA. They used it on Japan and were close to use it on Vietnam too.
Btw: Iranian mullahs are maybe they mullahs most close to the bomb. I don’t believ they intend to use it on the first occasion, when they have the bomb.
@aly
Why are people like you so blinded with hate against the Mullahs? I always find you guys up in arms for reasons only known to you. Why do you speculate so much?
Mullahs will use nukes….okay! How do you draw that conclusion?
When in Pakistan’s history have Mullahs run the government? Yes, they have collaborated and formed coalitions but isn’t that what MQM/ANP do?
You call the extremists, what r u?
Stop ranting plz
i am glad you you declared in the last para this is “NOT OUR WAR”.
@ Aly wat ever u said about Indian Interest is ok
but this is 100% true that ISI has seen links between Raw khad Mosad some terrorist group operating in pak
India is involved in Balochistan ….
there may be 1o,000 indians in afghanistan for them there are more then 10 consulates
but in uk 1.1 million indiand only 3 consulated
why
….ISI has tru information wat RAw is doing in Afgnstn
Q:”Mullahs will use nukes….okay! How do you draw that conclusion?”
A:because they have USED all the weapons in their use INDISCRMINATLY on civilians.
[a truck full of ammunition striking with the a hotel,police station, a mentally handicapped female stuck with ammunition as sucide bomber in Iraq are very few examples]
that’s why that will use what ever they had on anyone who oppose them.
simple as that.
Dr Shahid Masawood column
http://jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/01-04-2009/col4.htm
@swat yosufzai
because according to Indians there are doing biggest reconstruction work In Afghanistan.its not the Pakistani government who should decide that how many Indian consultant should be in Afghanistan. its the Afghan Govt or Afghan people to decide.
Faria, I respect your sincerity of views and agree with your concerns, but the sad reality is that Pakistan has tens of thousands of people who are making money of the carnage created by the war for terror game of the West. When a religious seminary is blowup by the hell fire missiles in the northern Pakistan and causes casualties of hundreds of young children, there are Bhutto family children snuggled in lap of luxury in foreign countries in British institutions in the safety of the colonizers and the war criminals., tens of thousands of élites children are sent to western education institutes and tens of thousands are doing their A level and O level in Pakistan. Pakistani ruling elites are so disconnected to the sufferings of common people that it does not effect them. To the Pakistani ruling elites its simply a large fish eats the smaller one and gets larger. Why people take the law in their own hand, why they become so incensed to blow themselves up with the others? Is the question we need to ask ourselves and than we can fix this problem. Pakistani elites are becoming as the white masters “carbon copy” and they are looking at the rest of the people as uneducated subjects to be ruled by brutal force and kept in check with hired “guns” the Pak army and the policy……….
Why dont we say Pakistan is under attack rather then Bajor under attack, Wazirstan under attack i think we need more maturity. Pearl Harbour attacked by japanies USA said America is under attack and they retaliate with nuclear bomb. 9/11 terrorists attacked new york Bush said this an attack on America. 85 US drones attacks inside Pakistani borders but we call them ‘attack on Bajor , and attack on Khyber Agency’. Plus CIA and Raw are supporting terrorism in Pakistan to pressurise Pak govt.
@ConcerenedAmericanPak
Thanks for the Chris Floyd link. I discovered him back in Sept 2001 and what a find he turned out to be. I was lucky enough to discover Arundhati Roy about the same time. I had previously stated somewhere here:
BTW: Don’t miss any of the links in the piece especially in the following part:
In other words, just as I first wrote in the Moscow Times more than six years ago (and followed up three years later), the United States is deliberately fomenting terrorist attacks in order to pursue its political and military agendas.
How are you comparing some Taliban guys with Mullahs in our mainstream politics? Do you have a clue that majority of those guys are Uzbeks, Tajiks, Chechens, Arabs, and Uyghur. Now are we sending them to our parliament next?
@ Aly then it is Pak people to decide how to fight against terrorism not u Indian should have the right to tell us wat to do
you did not say about Indian involvement in Balochistan ////
are they not involve
it is fact that they are funding terrorist //
@iamsowise
“Why dont we say Pakistan is under attack rather then Bajor under attack”
Because then we have to answer
Also our baboos/human rights activists are certain only monstorous Taliban militants are being killed so you better support it!
@iamsowise
Its because the Value of blood is not same
People of Islamabad And Lahore Are more valuable then those civilians killed in Fata and Balochistan
so Unless we see attacks on Islamad And Lahore (Allah Na Karain )we wont say Pakistan Under Attacj
@nota,
You are welcome and thanks for all your contributions on this thread, I have learned a lot from your posts, we need people like you in this cyber war of ideas and misinformation. I consider you as a great asset for the Pakistan…….
Here we have failed miserably, if we had a half decent government one drone attack and all co-operation on this “WAR OF TERROR” should have ceased, stopping of logistics and intelligence etc.
We had such a strong case that we could not articulate to the yanks that one civilian killed by you is one to many and this is not acceptable under any circumstances.
regarding Indian involvements in Baluchistan.
did India asked Musharraf to kill Bugtti.
did India asked Us not the Bloch their due rights.
did India asked us to take their Sui Gas and use it in Houses/factories of Punjab and Sindh and keep them darkness.
is India asked to let the Baluch still drink water with the animals while in Islamabad CDA spending millions to decorate new Fountains and waterfalls.
its ourselves who are respocible for Baluchistan not the indians.
@ nota…lolz
Zardari govt is the funiest govt ever ruled on Pakistan.
@ConcernedAmericanPak
But I’m just a lowly Taliban lover
aftab
i challenge you bring any GOVT in Pakistan [even the angles from the skies] these drones are not gonna stop until unless we ourself put our house under order i said before i will repeat again
bhulay shah said
“kuttay day gall pattta huvay tay watta koi na marray” [if your DOG is chained no one will throw stone at the DOG]
its our “DOG” we will have to chain it other wise people will throw “stones” at the “DOG”.
Right on spot, Aly!
@ Aly
Dogs were America’s Hero, Must watch Holly wood Jhon Rambo movie Rambo 3.
Yeah in our case Dogs are todays secular atheists of Pakistan
@aly
i am sorry i disagree, we can stop these drone attacks in an instance if we look past our selfish personal interests of the ruling elite and put trust in the population who are the ultimate guarantors of our country surviving.
@aly
“aly said:
@swat yosufzai
because according to Indians there are doing biggest reconstruction work In Afghanistan.its not the Pakistani government who should decide that how many Indian consultant should be in Afghanistan. its the Afghan Govt or Afghan people to decide.”
That’s right, but why all the consulates are along the Pakistani border?
Also if millions of Afghan refugees are harboring in Pakistan, and all the Afghan’s trade is going through Pakistan, then Pakistan must have a right to be listened by Afghan govt, at least if Pakistanhas some concerns, ……………isn’t?
@ConcerenedAmericanPak
Another bit worth reading from an article mentioned by from the Chris Floyd in the article you posted is worth a read:
@aly
““kuttay day gall pattta huvay tay watta koi na marray” [if your DOG is chained no one will throw stone at the DOG]”
In the past we have chained the d0g=india and we will do it again in the future, inshallah!
in order to chain the dog you need to identified the dog first and far most.
you cannot expect a cure by treating a heart attack with antibiotics.
@ALy
stop ur rubbish Answer my question
are Indians involved or not in Balochistan
Kuttay Kay galy Main patay ka matlab Indian Kay galy mai pata hay
All neighbours of India HAte india AS It interfare in internal
Issues
U answer my Question Whos Is funding terrorist in Balochistan
\
Is the Rports of Int Agencis not true..
Whatthe Incamera Briefing Show to the Parlimiment …? Open ur Eyes
Who’s Is funding terrorist in Baluchistan
i dnt know.
how much money is needed to fund a terrorist organization.
do you know much does it take to buy a Kalashnikov in Pakistan
do you much many people a Kalashnikov can kill.
you dnt need a Big money to fund terrorism. you need few Mad people who are ready to kill others.
i dnt know what the in camera briefing told the parliamentarians.
but i hope as you were there you will shed some light on it.
if India in involve then Why Pakistani is not able to capture a single INDIAN [national] AGENT in Baluchistan.
as they Got hold of ‘the BUTCHER’
Bravo writer! Such Articles are the beest form of uniting a country! or is it?
Lahore is under attack? really? I though Pakistan was under attack? Maybe I am wrong and NWFP does not come under Pakistan.You have the opportunity wwith this webiste to unite Pakistanis and bring them all togeether by discussing Pakistan for once and not bloody individuals or cities.
Anyhow, the problem is Pakistan was created very easily and that is how the generations have learned to live and take their country for granted. If only we had giveen blood earlier, i am sure we would have been all veery patriotic and would not have allowed politicans, terrorists (whoever they are) or other countries to take us for granted.
As far as Baitullah is concerned, I am now very much confident that he is getting support ffrom India. Why does Baituallh have to take responsibility for any attacks? why noone take responsibility for the Jamrud blasts. If they need to give a message then they have to take responsibility. Someone has to inside Pakistan because that will be inline with what India, ISRAEL and Afghanistan (or should i say USA) wants. As long as these idiots take responsibility whether they have done it or not, the objective of our enemies is fulfilled. They will keep striking us by using Baitullah’s etc so we can never blame India directly and are pronouned as failed state or as Manmohan yestreday said and I quote “Pakistan is the epicentre of terrorism”.
Honestly speaking, If Pakistan is going through such times, is it right to say these things if you really want relations to be normal. Forget Manmohan, That twat (Karzai) has the nerves to tell us that we have problems when his country is under occupation and all the idiots have now come to Pakistan because they were made to run and not killed by NATO/States. Why should we be answerble for what NATO couldnt do in Afghanistan.
As far as terrorists are concerned ….what do they want from Pakistan? Their enemies are in Afghamistan and on patrols. why dont they go and fight them. They are cowards…they ran away from Afghanistan and now come to Pakistan to tell us how strong they are. Anyone who kills or threatens Pakistan and its citizens are our enemies regardleess of their religion or nationality.
It is high time we implement a law to stop and search every foreigner in this country and those without visa or Pakistan nationality should be deported right away. As far as FATA is concerned we ask them a question – With or against Pakistan. If against, then whatever comes in way should be turned into ash! it is even the responsibility of our citizens to take arms against these so called muslims and kill them! how many are they anyway in SWAT? more than innocent civilians.
Security – Well Israel took 50 years to try and secure their occupied state with all the money in the world, resources and technology. The result = recently two atttacks in Jerusalem and another great wall of china being created to practically stop people crossing into the occupied state. What is the size of Israel that they could not secure it as compared to Pakistan and its population. Look at UK and its size yet it can not protect itself and has started playing a mute role now. How can we from nowhere start securing our homeland and make sure it will work. were we ever ready for this? No! we should have been but no, we were never ready! were we ready for Islamabad earthquake? no we were not!
Pakistan and Pakistanis (including myself) – we learn when we get into trouble. Our attitude is wrong and it is high time we sort it out so that the next generation do not have to go through this mess. Eventually our time will come when we are all into our 50′ and 60’s, No? we are the future. We should be doing something productive to dismantle the continuous and untouchable problems in our society, politics and attitudes.
Please treat this problem as Pakistan’s problem and not Punjab or Sind’s problem. It is these websites and media which can bring us all together and inform all Pakistanis that this is Pakistan’s problem and our very identity is under threat by extrenal threats and internal threats who do not wish for us to be one and break us finish us. After all Israel, India and USA have a common interests in Paksitan.
Pakistan Zindabad.
WHY just india, isreal, and US, why not Saudia, Iran, china, and our faithfuls islamists brother from all over the Islamic ummah.
@aly
Don’t give the illusion of being a Muslim or a Pakistani. Nobody believes you.
dnt worry i have my passport. i dnt need anyone else believe about me being Pakistani.
any most of the people here Bait ullah Mehsood and Tehrik-taliban pakistan as Patriotic Pakistanis’
so i dnt need to certificate of any of these.
aly=awais?
@swat yosufzai
Afgan MPs call for early withdrawal of foreign troops
By Imtiaz Indher
ISLAMABAD, APR 1, (APP) Afghan Parliamentarians on Wednesday observed that prolonged stay of foreign troops in Afghanistan could prove counter-productive. “Immediate pull out of foreign troops and involvement of genuine stakeholders in the peace process will establish peace in Afghanistan,” said Afghan Government’s Advisor, Ehsanullah Aryanzai on sidelines of Pak-Afgan Parliamentary Jirga at a local hotel.
Meanwhile, the cooperation of neighboring countries with Kabul was equally essential to support stability and strengthen democracy.
Talking to APP Aryanzai said, the international community must take measures for infrastructure and social development of tribal areas and creating awareness among people.
The Advisor said India is using Afghan soil to destabilize Pakistan and Afghan security agencies are unable to stop Indian intervention due to absence of centralized government mechanism.
To a question, he said only trust and restoration of confidence among Islamabad and Kabul could strengthen bilateral relations leading to durable peace in the region as well as education and social development in the terrorism-hit region.
“PPP-led government is far better than the previous one as it represents real voice of the Pakistani people and we have noted sincerity in its efforts,” said Aryanzai.
Another Member of Parliament (MP), Engr. Muhammad Asim said, although presence of foreign troops was supportive for maintenance of law and order, however their prolong stay will create panic among the people which would be counter-productive for peace.
Asim said that the United States has realized sensitivity of the matter and democrats-led new administration’s recent announcement for giving timetable of pullout was an important development.
He said Bush administration had ignored the regional stakeholders and taken unilateral actions, without taking the neighbors into confidence, which certainly aggravated the situation and the desired objective of peace could not be achieved.
Meanwhile, acting Afghan ambassador to Pakistan, Majnoon Gulab, said that stay of foreign troops was necessary for maintaining law and order. He said time had come when international community should act promptly for ensuring peace and development in Afghanistan.
“Now, we have to move practically and take action instead of merely relying upon verbal assurances and intentions,” he said.
Abdul Hameed Mobarez, chief of Afghan Journalists Organization and former minister, said that Pakistan government and people have always supported peace efforts in Afghanistan as they wanted to see their muslim neighbor peaceful and prosperous.
“Our problem is common, both Pakistan and Afghanistan are victims of terrorism. Therefore, we need to list common objectives and set joint strategy for security of our homelands,” he said.
Mobarez supported Pakistan National Assembly Speaker Fehmida Mirza’s proposal for formation of parliamentary Jirga for interaction between the legislators of both the countries.
He said the forum would make concrete endeavors for social development and inputs from legislators would prove helpful for security management measures across the border.
“Let us go forward. Respect each other’s sovereignty and avoid verbal confrontation otherwise our common enemy will exploit the opportunities to create division in our friendly relations,” maintained Mobarez.
Baidar Zazai, one of vocal Afghan MP, said that former prime minister Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto, in her last meeting with Afghan President Hamid Karzai, had vowed to cooperate for peace and development in Afghanistan.
“We have similar expectations from PPP co-chairman and President Asif Zardari…and so far he has performed well as he understands that only stable Afghanistan was guarantee to peace in Pakistan,” said Zazai.
“This is era of coordination and regionalism. International community must ensure participation of all neighbors, especially Pakistan in the negotiations,” he added.
Associated Press of Pakistan
@czar
I am assuming you were telling some kind of sick joke rarding carpet bombing.
@aly et al
How on earth can you be so flippant about India’s involvement in Afghanistan? No nation on earth tolerates a known enemy country (one that you have been at war with numerous occassions and who is currently using rhetoric and covert action to destabalise you) interfering in a neighbouring country, designed to box you in. Look we can debate the rights and wrongs of the new AfPak policy of the USA and our meek governments response but HAVE SOME SELF RESPECT!
You try and use as the ‘reasoned’ argument that because we have behaved appallingly in Bolouchistan we are reaping what we sow and that India’s involvement is a moot point. THESE ARE OUR INTERNAL POLICIES. It is for us to solve these issues.
You are selling yourself short and Pakistan down the river. Every nation with a bit of backbone charts its own course and policies. No other country would tolerate what you suggest we do and what we should ignore.
I am getting a terrible feeling from these threads that a ground invasion force of US troops would be cheered on by a number of people.
@nota, this is sad…senators to support funding to train Pakistani forces to fight militants….
She and Gen. David Petraeus, commander of the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, also urged senators to support funding to train Pakistani forces to fight militants. And they painted a somewhat pessimistic picture, saying that building the Afghan security forces and bolstering the Pakistani military to fight insurgents on their side of the border will take more time and money.
Defense leaders did not detail what the budget request would be, but said a key element will be the fund to train Pakistani forces in counterinsurgency operations that would target al-Qaida safe havens along the ungoverned Afghan border.
During the hearing on President Barack Obama’s new strategy expanding the Afghan campaign, senators also questioned how willing the Pakistani government is to take on that fight against the extremists who use the border as a staging area for attacks.
Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich., warned that he does not agree with the administration’s contention that progress in Afghanistan depends on success on the Pakistan side of the border.
Afghanistan’s future should not be tied totally to the Pakistan government’s decisions, he said, adding that he remains skeptical about Pakistan’s ability to secure its border.
http://www.kansas.com/514/story/756124.html
The pressure from USA is not something that Pakistan in its current situation can put aside. After all they have security concerns and so does India and Israel. the only problem these countries have is Pakistan! Why? very simple and much reported over years.
Pakistan will have to pay heavily for providing support to Libya, Iran and North Korea for their Nuclear ambitions. After all USA only had three enemies they were seriously concerned about and then it turns out that Pakistan were providing them assistance through AQ Khan. I am totally FOR Islamic countries to have nuclear arsenal specially Iran and these enemies of our state are bound to stop us from assisting Iran as Libya betrayed us and North Korea tested an year ago to get their credibility and respect back.
Israel knows that another war with Syria will mean indirect war with Pakistan as it has promised a more deeper assistance in war than the assistance provided during the Ramadan war of 1973. It iss a known fact that Pakistan’s nuclear capability is thanks to China and North Korea. Idrael’s main threat is Iran and Pakistan is no doubt helping them to become nuclear before Israel can open up iits arms further.
Pakistan is also helping Sri Lanka in their fight against Tamil Tigers i.e. indirect fight with India. tamil tigers are supported by India and we are doing a great job beating the shit out of them. We helped Bosnia when things went out of control along with Turkey and are the only Islamic republic to have proposed the idea of Islamic Union. Needless to talk about Kashmir and our support for Palestine as during the Oath ever President has to announce its support for Palestine thus igniting a fire under Israel’s ass.
For all this, dont we have to pay the price. Yes, we have to but we need to be united and give a clear message from Pakistan People (if Goveernment cant) to all those (whoever it is) that are trying to de-stabilise us that they will never win and can never break us up. We are one Pakistan with 4 provinces and that is how it will be forever.
What happens inside Pakistan politically is our house problem. we will sort it out as every country has internal problems and takes 100’s of years to sort them out. but when someone else tries to mess with our internal house problems then that is something which should not be and is not acceptable. that is when Pakistan should get united. I wish the police force had Pakistani flags with them and showed it after taking back the lahore police academy. these are the times when world is watching us and these are the times when we need to show who we are and what we mean!
Love to all you Pakistanis for putting so much time and effort for discussing isssues. This is the begining and inshallah one day you will be given a chance to do something practical and will surely make the required changes to this sweet country of ours.
God bless Pakistan!
@nota
I totally agree with you anytime, any thing could be made an excuse now to enter into final and grand phase of this “War on terror”.
This reminds me an old article by Asif Haroon Raja.
USA has bared its teeth
In FATA, Nek Muhammad was first cultivated and provided logistic support. When he entered into a peace deal with Pak Army in July 2005, he was killed using precision guided missile. Abdullah Masood, an Afghan war veteran who had also fought the Northern Alliance in October-November 2001 was captured and brainwashed during his two years internment in Guantanamo Bay. He was released after agreeing to work on terms dictated by CIA and he soon was able to takeover the leadership role. His death at Zhob at the hands of Pak security forces was a loss for CIA.
Baitulah Masood and Fazlullah had not taken part in Afghan jihad and do not qualify to head Taliban; yet 30 year old Baitullah has managed to create Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and Fazlullah calls the shots in Swat. Mulla Omar had never shown interest in establishing any links with Pakistani Taliban and had warned Nek Muhammad not to operate under the brand name of Taliban. It is being questioned as to how come Baitullah, Fazlullah and their spokesmen desperately wanted by Pakistan security forces have escaped the hawk eye of USA, particularly after they have been seen giving detailed interviews to media and using their cell phones? ISI had once given six figure coordinates of Baitullah and yet no Hellfire missile was fired on his hideout by CIA. The TTP that has spread its influence in all the seven agencies of tribal belt and in neighbouring settled districts of NWFP has succeeded in making inroads into Punjab, particularly southern Punjab. Large number has got recruited from Chiniot, Bahawalpur, Dera Nawab, Bahawalnagar, Faisalabad, Sialkot and other places. Though they do not speak a word of Pashto, but are fighting side by side with Pathan Taliban.
….
Once the ISI got freed from wild goose chase of so-called terrorists and came under pressure on account of missing persons, it started to concentrate on its primary task in the troubled spots. To its horror it found far too many militant groups and criminal gangs operating under the guise of religious militants and cultivated by foreign agencies. They were the ones involved in carrying out gruesome beheadings of security personnel and torching girls’ schools to defame the real Taliban who had a peaceful agenda. Besides CIA, RAW and RAM, even Iran and Uzbekistan had developed its tentacles in Baluchistan, Swat and Kurram Agency. Most of the pro-Pakistan groups had been purchased or neutralized and those not coming to terms were eliminated by groups sponsored by CIA. Things had gone topsy-turvy and ISI found itself at a loss how to differentiate between friend and foe.
yes
@aly
At this forum you will meet the macho defenders (mostly men) of Pakistan who although accusing other people of thinking through their as* holes themselves think through their di*k.
Ofcourse, as Nusrat Javed from Aaj TV likes to point out from time to time, if you are not with ‘them’, you are labelled a RAW agent, Hindu, Israeli and the usual stuff.
I was on a recent flight from Karachi (via Lahore) to NYC. The most amazing part of the flight was when we were about to land at JFK. There was a circus in the plane, people hustling to fill out the disembarkation form, nervous looks whether they will get through immigration and the usual Pakistani (sub-continent) nervousness all around. There was this guy from Jehlum sitting next to me and looking at all this, he says “this is what usually happens on every flight; the amount of time and energy people in Pakistan spend to get to America, if they use 1/10th of it to get to Jannat, they will be on a fast-track their…..”
That’s what these people are here….Sitting in a Nandoos in Washignton, DC telling me that “we have Taliban”….
@Jazoo
“Your knowledge is unmatched & outstanding, your disclosure IK is supporting suicide bombars specially kidz need not to be verified by his exclusive statement…”
Thanks for the complement. IK’s does support suicide bombers!!!!
@jazoo
I don’t think we should be bringing people’s kids into politics, but the marketing campaign that IK is on will be a little more believable if he follows what he preaches. His politics is neither principled nor pragmatic.
@bho
You win again
The following gem of wisdom need explanation because it is way above the Pakistani intellect of this board.
Pl explain, what good it would bring if we do not understand.
“this is what usually happens on every flight; the amount of time and energy people in Pakistan spend to get to America, if they use 1/10th of it to get to Jannat, they will be on a fast-track their…..”
bho man
You understand Hazrat Imran Khan so well. Exactly me sentiments…on him as well as on the larger taliban etc issue
solution to all problems is unity against those terrorists who want to destroy Pakistan. I know that 100 % concensus is not possible on any issue but atleast we should try to unite against terrorism and terrorists.
Problem is that due to some unknown reaosns some people become self appointed spokesperson of Taliban terrorists and start defending them and even justifying the killings which they are doing. As soon as this justification will continue, terrorism will also continue . Noone will be able to harm us if we show our unity.
Talibans are get finances from enemies of Pakistan and first thing is to stop these resources and arms supplies to the Taliban. Second is to go after culprits and punish them for their wrong doings. People of Tribal areas are very patriotic, but a handful armed militia has highjacked whole FATA and infact Talibans have killed many in FATA itself in suicide bombings and in target killings.
As soon as taliban got weak in Bajour, local people revolted against them and they helped Pakistan Army to clear the area and liberating bajour from Talibans. It is true for all tribal agencies, even Ansar Abbasi in one of the interview mentioned that perhaps 1-2 % people will be with Taliban in Tribal areas. Taliban has made people hostage and this gave a wrong impression that perhaps they are very popular, sure thats not the case
what we need is again unity against terroists and should stop defending and justifying Terrorist activities so as stop presenting Talibans as heroes..
@bho
Kidz after seperation usually live with mother & thats the case in English law as well.
IK has no control to bring his kidz here in Pakistan because their mother lives in England.
So how his actions mismatching his words.
I do not see any logic except that you are bho
My dear Faria
You deliberately misunderstand me. That was no sick joke.
bho has a company
What a plaesant coincident(infact accident)
Any alternative is a sick joke.
@bho
Allmy life I travel from Kar to NY
I never see Pakistanis nervous before landing.
Check your flight, this time you might have taken a flight from Mumbai to NY.
@bho
Sorry to bother you again
what gentleman from Jehlum was doing in a flight from Kar to Ny.
The best rout for him is LHR to NY.
The easiest way to commit a crime in Pakistan is to do it in the name of Islam.
Grow a beard, speak against America, shout Allah-o-Akbar and then do what you like.
Not only will you be successful in your endeavour, you will also be considered a hero by more than half the population and by self-styled intellectuals showing up daily on this tv channel or that.
@jazoo
“I never see Pakistanis nervous before landing.”
-Because you are one of the nervous ones filling out the third draft of the disembarkation form with the other 3 rough copies in the breast pocket.
“Check your flight, this time you might have taken a flight from Mumbai to NY”
-I said the other guy was from Jehlum. The observation is universal. I also said sub-continent, which when i last checked, includes Mumbai/Bombay.
“Kidz after seperation usually live with mother & thats the case in English law as well”
-IK is going to follow English law? Goray ka law follow karay ga Imran. Have you gone man? I thought IK was on an eternal fight against the goraas who he demeans every chance he gets….Come on, there has to be a better explanation. I have one, Jamima Goldsmith’s last name is Goldsmith. You know how much money it takes when somebody is dragging you through English courts?
@
secular_Pakistani
Totally agree with you, your comment is the best ..this isquote of the day
Only & Only India is behind all the happenings in our Country. The general Indian public is so against Pakistan and they want AKHAND BHARAT but “Inshallah” their dream will never come true. Pakistan will remain on World Map “Inshallah”
@secular-pakistani
agree absolutely
@bho
I do not have to fill disembarkation form, sorry for disappointment
I simply fill custom declaration card.
BTW again what a gentleman from Jehlum was doing in a flight from Kar to NY.
Best rout for him is LHR to NY
@bho
I’d like to hear your opinion about ‘Zaleelon ka Sathi” Altaf Hussain. Few months back he was crying about Taliban grouping up in Karachi but they have been launching attacks in mostly Punjab cities. What happened? I haven’t heard any leader from Punjab saying that Talibans have arrived in Lahore/ISB/pindi. All his garbage he was spewing led to some violence in sohrab goth area dominated by pashtuns .
Why does that guy always do his politics along the ethnic lines? To me he is more serious abt balkanzing the country than the Taliban. Could you kindly tell me why he has to rely on these cheap tactics?
Atleast Imran uses his voice not guns to convey his message!
Please do reply
@czar
I thought I would give you time to reconsider your insane proposal.
@msohail83
“I’d like to hear your opinion about ‘Zaleelon ka Sathi” Altaf Hussain..”
Terrorist, opportunistic politician (master at his game), and taxi driver turned leader (commendable) but with no leadership qualities. The fat toad has only one thing going for him, he has a nice little niche constituency that he uses as his power base. The concerns of that constituency are not addressed by anybody else.
“I haven’t heard any leader from Punjab saying that Talibans have arrived in Lahore/ISB/pindi..”
-Nobody needs to…The idealogy spread/weaponized by the fifth khalifa of the Ummah Zia-ul-Haq is alive, well, and kicking in Southern Punjab. ‘Lashkar dar Lashkar’ and cadres of all sorts of ‘Jamaats’ recruit their foot soldiers from Southern Punjab. Shireen Mazari’s best friend Ayesha Siddiqua, among hundreds others, have written about this adnauseum. Governor NWFP himself had told the Punjab government that this thing is going to eat you alive if you don’t take pro-active steps.
“Atleast Imran uses his voice not guns to convey his message!”
-I didn’t hear Imran’s voice when the Khyber Agency suicide bomb recently took 70 souls with it;
I didn’t hear Imran’s voice when the shia-sunni violence in Khyber killed hundreds and has killed thousands in the past;
I didn’t hear Imran’s voice when a suicide bomber took out a shia mosque in Sind Madarsatul Islam (where Jinnah studied) in 2000 (before all this war on terror started);
Nothing from Imran on the senseless killing of muslims by muslims, which has killed more people than any ‘war on terror’ or ‘war on peace’. He has a complex against the West and gooras (and in a twisted way, he the closest to them).
There have been several mentions of this here before, but even if America leaves Afghanistan today, the Lashkar’s and Jamaat’s will still remain and Imran Khan’s preachings are only increasing their ranks.
@bho
I totally disagree with Altaf but
to say he has no leadership quality
need a bho factor
@secular_pakistani
“The easiest way to commit a crime in Pakistan is to do it in the name of Islam.
Grow a beard, speak against America, shout Allah-o-Akbar and then do what you like.”
Let’s see … biggest criminals … Zardari, Mush, Altaf Hussain, Chaudhries of Gujrat, Naek, Sharifuddin haramzada, Qayuum, Latif Khota, Kala mouN Kasuri … are the first ones that come to mind.
Funny not one of them passes your test. All supporters of “secularism” (except Ch Shuj maybe)
Good News from Lahore:
The “Unification Block” strength has gone to 44
So the “disqualification clause” no longer applies. Tomorrow they file to be considered a separate group. So PPP is no longer needed by PML-N to form government (Total strength of PML-N now is 210)
@jazoo
“BTW again what a gentleman from Jehlum was doing in a flight from Kar to NY.
Best rout for him is LHR to NY”
This is what i wrote:
….was on a recent flight from Karachi (via Lahore) to NYC….
PK 721 to be exact.
I am grateful to you all for sharing your thoughts with me.
Regards,
Dr Qaisar Rashid
The author
Lahore, Pakistan.
@jazoo
“Altaf but to say he has no leadership quality need a bho factor”
Bho factor and half !!!
All gang leaders have ‘leadership qualities’. Singing like a fat toad on national TV doesn’t qualify you as a political leader. I thought we were talking about political leadership qualities. I don’t know what yard stick you use, but political leadership in Pakistan is non-existent.
@nota
Why do you presume without any prior knowledge that I, in any way, support the people you mention?
The problem with ideologues, of whatever variety, is that they cannot help categorise people. In their simplistic worldview, one is either pro-America or pro-Al-Qaeda.
In any case, the topic under discussion is terrorist attacks on Pakistan, not the conduct of certain Pakistani politicians.
There is a word in the English language called “relevance”. Look it up in a dictionary.
@bho
Please don’t mix thing up. As for as I know Imran never justifies these heinous acts, he’s always denounced it.
The point he’s trying to make is what’s happening on the western border is a direct result of American intervention in Afghanistan. Not to mention the drones sending hell fires. Things can only be improved if the westerners pull out. He backs up his claim with the history of Afghanistan. Hope you won’t deny the history now!
Do you honestly think those guys can be defeated militarily in the rugged terrain?
@secular_pakistani said:
“@nota
Why do you presume without any prior knowledge that I, in any way, support the people you mention? ”
And exactly where did I presume any such thing? DO read my comment again.
“The problem with ideologues, of whatever variety, is that they cannot help categorise people. In their simplistic worldview, one is either pro-America or pro-Al-Qaeda.”
I think it is you who is the one who is “presuming”, “categorizing” people. Funny you don’t see it.
BTW: I have been called a lot of things but “ideologues” is a new one. I’ll add it to my collection. Thanks
Why does this debate genrate down to accusations of others as being right wing or left? The debate should be about what is in Pakistan’s national interests. And America’s agenda is not in our interest.
is it possible for pkpol. to start a poll that :
are taliban justified in attacking variuos cities of Pakistan?
JI hooligans and members of Liaqat Baloch qabza group will say yes without any doubt , then there is a group of pseudo intellectuals who give one thousand reasons that why this Taliban terrorism started and who finds everytime some reasons to justify taliban terrorism will also say yes ..but this poll will help to see the support which taliban terrorists have in public
An intersting article on our Taliban brothers (and any sisters if they exist, oops forgot, Taliban is a man’s world):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/02/taliban-easing-beard-burq_n_182267.html
Maybe i was too harsh on them.
@nota
You threw the names of some discredited people at me, presuming that as I am against those who commit crimes in the name of Islam, I will be supportive of the people you mention. Otherwise there was no need to bring them into the discussion. It was totally irrelevant.
It is hard for an ideologue to appreciate the grey shade between black and white.
@Inqalab150309
Are these people muslims by an means who are carrying on such brutal activities?
Yes, muslims kill each other on a daily basis. Muslims kill muslims. What kind of a stupid question is this? It seems like you have managed to log onto the Internet and made it to pkpolitcs.com. But you haven’t figured/deduced/realized/confirmed that muslims kill muslims on daily basis? Have you ever heard of a war called Iran-Iraq war? Do you not read what happens in Iraq on a daily basis? If you really want to know who is killing who in Iraq, i recommend that you take one of those caravans that goes from all the big cities in Pakistan for ‘ziarats’ to Iraq.
@
faria
“And America’s agenda is not in our interest”
my answer is simple that yes american agenda is not in our interest
may i also add that:
“Talibans agenda is also not in our interest..am i right?”
a simple answer from your side..without writing 20 odd lines to divert the attention from Terrorists
@BHO
A muslim can never attack on Masjids.
@Inqalab150309
“@BHO
A muslim can never attack on Masjids.”
The lollipop store site is here my friend:
http://www.thelollipopshop.net/
I think you are on the wrong forum.
@bho
Pleaes don’t ridicule ppl if u disagree with them.
Our enemies take advantage of our weakness. We fight ourselves, accuse and defame others with different names. If we do illegal and unconstitutional act, we give a different name and justify it for ourselfves but same thing is done by the opponent we call them traiters. We have double standard, that is MUNAFIQAT which is the BIGGEST crime according to ISLAM.
If we are sincere with Pakistan, we have to stand together and give up WISHFULL THINKIN and open the eyes in the real world.
We need to create harmony and peace and stand against the criminal acts being committied in Tribal and NWFP. These people are forwarding gradually towards Punjab and Sindh and they have to be stopped and the only way we can do that we all should unite and shun childish behaviour.
We do not have good leadership, but it would take some time for new leadership to come and take over. At this moment we have to choose lesser evil until the young and open minded people take over the leadership Insha Allah ultimately. People are sick and tired with the corrupt leaders.
Reading the comments, I could not help wish for a more serious debate. Like any other serious analysis, lets start with identifying the key factors and assumptions on which the scenario is explained. This will help us explain the present better and identify future trends more plausibly.
1. The US Interests: Mere AL-Qaeda/Taliban and/or Strategic Interests in the region as well?
2. Pakistan’s Interests: Denying India space in Afghanistan and/or True love for Jihadi Culture
First, I for one believe that the US invasion has more to it than AQ. The documented stories of the US forces letting OBL getting away more than once cast a serious shadow on the argument that the US is in AFG only for OBL/AQ. There is a swathe of other evidence on key elements of the official story.
Second, I tend to agree that at least at the policy making level, that the jihadi culture is/was used by the defence establishment in Pakistan not only to deny India any foothold in AFG but also to keep the Indian forces bogged down in Kashmir primarily.
The problem at present is shaping in a way that falls “not in favour” of the US but is going “more against” the Pakistani interests. The US would want a peaceful AFG with its minimal presence intact for safeguarding its strategic interests . This does not only go against the interests of Pakistan, which is seeing the increasing Indian influence in AFG but also undermines Chinese and Iranian interests in the region.
The relative conflict rather than confluence of interests between Pakistan and the US gets a more complex dimension because of the confusion with regard to the true scale, breadth and depth of the US interests in the region. For instance, even though not officially espoused, but are continous references to Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal and program any indication of US efforts as part of their AF-Pak strategy to de-nuclearize Pakistan. Perceptions with regard to this question alone can trump any other consideration of cooperation among the two countries.
There are a lot of other key issues characterizing the US-Pakistan at present. I will leave it here for the debate to move on.
@Inqalab150309
I think you ought to read the article @savage posted above…
Neoconservatism: The Return
A new incarnation, a new name – and the same old warmongering
While John McCain was ostensibly the main attraction, the real focus of the conference was a celebration of the man who defeated him. As David Weigel put it, the FPI conference turned into a “Neocons for Obama” festival, as super-hawkish foreign policy maven Fred Kagan hailed President Obama’s Af-Pak offensive as the best thing since the Iraqi “surge”: “He’s definitely saying no to pulling back. It was a gutsy and correct decision.” Yet all is not rosy: “Kagan worried/predicted that Obama’s base would bristle at the plan, so ‘he will be counting on some significant amount of support from his political opponents.’”
Not to worry. The brain-dead Obamaites are shamelessly eager to grant their Glorious Leader a pass, no matter what he does. So far, there is not a peep out of Obama’s liberal supporters, except a few voices raised at the Nation, even as the president mounts a major escalation of the Long War. Not only that, but his supporters are rallying around their commander in chief, now that we’re fighting the “right” war in the “right” way. And take a good look at some of his supporters…
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/03/31/neoconservatism-the-return/
@secular_pakistani said:
“@nota
You threw the names of some discredited people at me, presuming that as I am against those who commit crimes in the name of Islam, I will be supportive of the people you mention. Otherwise there was no need to bring them into the discussion. It was totally irrelevant.
It is hard for an ideologue to appreciate the grey shade between black and white.”
You continue to assume and continue to label.
I thought I said READ my comment again. I guess it was silly of me to assume you would try and comprehend it too. So yes, I am guilty of that assumption 
BTW, I also asked you to show me where I had “presumed” anything. Of course you did not and just reworded the same old comment of yours.
You talked of “biggest criminals” and I posted the names of some of the biggest among them. Just how is it “totally irrelevant” certainly beats me…
@bho
you started with some valid points and now just resorted to the usual slandering and scoring points in the end, you have to get back to the point bro!
@ConcernedAmericanPak
Here’s two to go along with that:
FROM P.N.A.C. TO F.P.I.: THE REINVENTING OF NEOCONSERVATISM FOR THE ERA OF OBAMA
Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) Unveils Global Governance Agenda
@
czar said:2 April 2009 at 12:37 pm
Yes, madam faria.
The answer is carpet bombing. Declare: you’re with us, or against us. Provide: shelter and amenities for all non-taliban in the settled areas, and give a month for non-combatants to come to these shelters. Then start bombing – carpet bombing, till death do us part.
Do these SETTLED AREAS include KARACHI?
@bechari-awam
Thanks for the score keeping, but i think i am entitled to respond to whomever i deem necessary.
@justice4all
yes, includes karachi
@madam faria
thank you for giving me time. my conclusion remains the same as before
@bho, fanaticmulla, other like minded
thank you for some sanity around here….going by most of the posters around here one would think each one is a crinkly hair on one big black beard
@nota a good read for you….
G-20..20 Gay countries…Gay as happy, rich and powerful are conducting a circus in London and all the war criminals and their financiers, such as Saudi Arabians, Japanese and Chinese are had in hand participating in a manner of arrogance and contempt for the rest of the world.
The G-20 summit started today in London, to see to it that the rules and regulations of the by the cartel fabricated ‘European Union’ and the cartel’s world dictatorship keeps spreading
THE GLOBAL COUP D’ÉTAT OF THE FINANCIAL CARTEL
And the global heist, this gigantic stealing wheeling and dealing, it just goes on with the tax payers money: “EU leaders have pledged 75 billion euros in new loans to the International Monetary Fund and urged the G20 leading economies to help double the organisation’s funding. By the end of a two day summit in Brussels they had agreed to top up – to 50 billion euros – a crisis fund for struggling member states. As expected, US pressure to increase the size of economic stimulus packages was ignored.” – [end quote] Source: Euronews – Url.: http://tinyurl.com/cthh3o
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=234999;article=2299;search_term=Ruyssenaars
@
czar
“going by most of the posters around here one would think each one is a crinkly hair on one big black beard”
i think you are new to this site, actually there is a JI media team comprised of some JI hooligans and members of Jamat Gunda Gardi Group which is very active in defending taliban , then there are few pseudo intellectuals who support taliban..apart from them everybody is against Taliban`s terrorist activities
you know that why JI has such a pain because they are not getting bucks from USA any more..12 years they got their share of dollars during 79-87 and now they are out of game and one can understand their pain and their team is very active on this site for propoganda purposes
this second pseudo intellectual group have some deep fear inside that if we say anything against Taliban it will be a sin and they cant come out of this complex.
actually 11 years of Zia Ul Haq Martial has so many negative impacts and one of the impact is elimination of independent thinking …anyway we cant convince both of these groups and we do not need to..it is our moral duty to condemn the criminal acts of terrorists and raise our voice against this brutality
just to save the time of those who will attack me
I do not belong to MQM, Altaf Hussain is a terrorist so as Bait Ullah Mehsud
I am against Zaradri, Rehman Malik etc etc etc..i have no sympathy with corrupt people
I am as much against Musharraf as I am against Zia ul Haq
I have n sympathy with americans whatsoever
it was just to save time and please find new points for attack
Sometimes, unfortunately, things on this forum turn to fist fights, calling one another names and mocking one another which isn’t healthy. Instead we should focus on the issues. In addition to that it is most unfortunate that most of the commentary and argument that goes on is not backed by facts. People are opinionated and there is nothing wrong about it. However, our opinions should be based on facts and ground realities and not emotions and hard headedness. At the same time we should be willing to change our opinions if presented with rational arguments backed by solid facts rather than making it an issue of personal ego and rolling up our sleeves.
The basic theme and ideas of this article which found its way to the front lines of this forum is:
1- The terrorist attacks are taking place because the state of Pakistan has gone on to attack the homes in tribal areas.
2- The tribal turned terrorists are only upset because their homes are being bombed in the tribal areas and they want to convey their message that stop attacking us and only then we will stop.
3- The terrorists are only choosing hard targets to convey a message
4- Musharraf is the root of all evil since he allowed Americans inside Pakistan and sold Pakistanis and therefore democracy is the answer to it.
5- The suggestion that AlQaida leadership in Pakistan is a sham and the people “parroting” this rhetoric belong to elitist Musharraf school of thought who have nothing at stake in Pakistan and because of their rhetoric Pakistan is losing.
6- The terrorists are not against common Pakistanis and therefore they did not hit lawyer’s movement for the restoration of justice.
7- War on terror is monolithic.
8- War on Terror is not Pakistan’s war and therefore Pakistanis should stand up to abandon this fight and things will be hunky dory.
Allow me to disagree with all these notions presented here. The author’s opinion not only lack facts they contradict the facts on the ground. The figment of imagination presented by the author maybe the result of his emotions but they are clearly without basis. Moreover, it is disappointing that an article without any credible facts to back it has been posted on the top of this forum. This Imran Khan school of thought which uses emotions but not brains is as detrimental to the security of this nation as was Musharraf’s egotistical working on many issues and is as extremist in its approach to dealing with this problem as was Musharraf’s (though on the opposite end of the spectrum).
Kindly consider the following facts and then analyze the article’s flawed thesis.
Fallacy #1: The terrorist attacks are taking place because the state of Pakistan has gone on to attack the homes in tribal areas.
It is a common misconception that extremist terrorism and suicide attacks came to Pakistan after Musharraf’s flawed approach after 9/11. Wrong. The first suicide attack in Pakistan by Al Qaida (AQ) was committed on 19th November, 1995 when two AQ suicide bombers rammed their explosive laden vehicles into the Egyptian Embassy in Islamabad. This was 4 years before Musharraf’s takeover and 6 years before 9/11!! 12 Pakistanis, 5 diplomats, 3 foreigners were killed and 60 were injured. There was no Musharraf at that time there was no military rule at that time there was no war on terror at that time yet there was AQ’s monstrous tentacles right in the heart of Pakistani capital. AQ openly claimed responsibility of this crime and even celebrated it in Afghanistan. There was a terrible wave of sectarian killings in the 1990s all attributed to terrorists who were being trained in Afghanistan and were being sheltered in Afghanistan. Throughout 1990s the tribal area was a hub of drug smuggling, weapons smuggling & vehicle smuggling. People kidnapped for ransom were taken to tribal areas, cars snatched and stolen were taken to tribal areas, and proclaimed offenders (ishtiharis) committed crimes and then fled to tribal areas where they were given asylum in return for commission by tribal elders in the name of “Pakhtoon Riwaj” (I do not mean to disrespect Pakhtoon Riwaj, the point I want to make is that name of Pakhtoon Riwaj was being misused) and nothing we could do because it was “Ilaqa Ghair”. The US did not attack this region after 9/11. They had already begun doing so when they struck on 20th August 1998 with cruise missile strikes. This was one year before Musharraf’s becoming COAS and then his subsequent takeover. US had already rung the warning bells to us only that we were ignorant and wild with religious ecstasy. Pray tell me was this all because we had hit tribal areas or because of military rule of Musharraf or because of “war on terror”. Nay, AQ had begun attacking Pakistan long before that. 9/11 strewed up the hornet’s nest and yes Musharraf did make many mistakes in his tactics and strategies to deal with this problem and for that he should be held accountable and criticized yet to consider him the root of this problem does not match facts. The problem had materialized 4 years before his appearance on the scene and still persists with all its ferocity one year after he left the scene. Our problem is institutional and its deep rooted in our social thinking and approach to problems and is well represented in this article where the author seems to be driven by emotions rather than facts and it is commonly observed on this forum where such articles without merit are given prominence.
The attackers who are attacking us are not only from tribal areas they are from all over the place. They are arabs, uzbeks, tajiks, chechens, afghans and even punjabis. The attacker caught in the latest Lahore attack belongs to Paktia province of Afghanistan. Pray tell me when did Pakistani forces went on to attack Arabian gulf, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan or even any area in Punjab?? To suggest that attackers have their causes in operations in tribal areas does not always get verified by facts on the ground. Yes, in a majority of cases the attackers have been from tribal areas. That is the general trend but that doesn’t translate into a rule.
Fallacy # 2- The tribal turned terrorists are only upset because their homes are being bombed in the tribal areas and they want to convey their message that stop attacking us and only then we will stop.
Nearly 600 tribal elders, maliks and khans have been killed in the tribal areas by these terrorists. If the terrorists were upset with Islamabad alone why would they go on to kill their own? More than 10 jirgas (there may be more but I am quoting a verifiable figure only) in Pakhtoon belt by these terrorists. More than 250 tribals have lost their lives in these suicide bomb blasts. Now any tribal or pakhtoon no matter how hot headed or angry he may be will not go on to attack a jirga in which his own tribal elders are sitting to resolve an issue in accordance with their local tradition. This trend shows a more heinous mind set and a more barbaric thinking than the kindness being shown to these terrorists by the likes of the author of the article and his supporters.
Fallacy # 3- The terrorists are only choosing hard targets and avoiding soft targets
Mosques (latest Jamrud attack), funerals (multiple incidents in tribal areas), eid prayers (attack on Sherpao), Hujras (attack on Asfandyar Wali greeting visitors on eid), Jirgas, sports ceremony (latest Pakistan National Games ending ceremony in Peshawar), political workers and elected leaders (ANP has lost 200), religious leaders (Maulana Hassan Jan of Peshawar who dared to criticize Taliban), Chinese engineers, foreign journalists, diplomats (Iran)……. !! I wonder where does Dr. Qaisar Rashid live since he doesn’t even have the most basic facts straight resulting in his pathetically poor analysis and misleading people.
Fallacy # 4- Musharraf is the root of all evil since he allowed Americans inside Pakistan and sold Pakistanis and therefore democracy is the answer to it.
Pray tell me, who sold Ramzi Ahmed Yousuf in 1995 without a trial –> the democratic government of Benazir. Pray tell me, who sold Aimal Kasi (a Pakistani citizen) in 1997 –> the democratic government of Nawaz Sharif. The CIA came all the way to Dera Ghazi Khan to capture him. Two wrongs will not make a right and I do not mean to defend Musharraf. The point I want to make
The Americans and the CIA have long been operating freely in Pakistan. Musharraf is certainly part of the problem but not the root of it since we have examples of these things happening before him and we will possibly have after him. The problems are institutional and a systematic approach to solve them will work not bashing Musharraf. (P.S. I am not defending Ramzi or Aimal. They were criminals who were served justice through proper trial in the US. Although Pakistani laws were defied in the process).
Fallacy # 5- The suggestion that AQ leadership in Pakistan is a sham and the people “parroting” this rhetoric belong to elitist Musharraf school of thought who have nothing at stake in Pakistan and because of their rhetoric Pakistan is losing.
I am utterly surprised at the confidence with which this claim has been made and it only speaks of the void of knowledge at the author’s end. The problem is we don’t know where AQ leadership is. They may or they may not be in Pakistan. To claim with certainty that they are not in Pak is as wrong as claiming with certainty that they are in Pak and that is what Musharraf always said too. Pray tell me if the following criminals were not caught in Pakistan: Khaled Sheikh Mohammed (Rawalpindi), Ahmed Umar Shaikh (Karachi), Abu Faraj Libbi (Mardan), Ahmed Hamabil (Karachi)….. Digging your head in sand like an ostrich will not serve you!! Please face facts no matter how ugly.
Fallacy # 6- The terrorists are not against common Pakistanis and therefore they did not hit lawyer’s movement for the restoration of justice.
At this statement I can only bang my head against a wall. I have already given a number of examples of ordinary Pakistanis victimized by these terrorists and will quote here the near-miss strikes on lawyers.
The lawyer’s movement was attacked or about to be attacked thrice and only luck and yes the police saved them (the very poor police personnel who the author so arrogantly called hard target and who he so indifferently called message delivery objects).
a) July 17, 2007 At least 17 people were killed and 50 injured as a suicide bomber blew himself up outside the venue of the district bar council convention in Islamabad killing mostly PPP political workers waiting for the arrival of Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, who was to address a lawyers convention
b) January 10, 2008 24 people were killed and 73 injured in a suicide attack when the policemen were deliberately targeted outside Lahore High Court before the scheduled lawyer’s protest against the government in provincial capital of Lahore.
c) March 16, 2009 At least 14 people were killed and 17 injured on Monday when a suicide bomber blew himself up near the busiest bus stand of Rawalpindi at Pirwadhai when people coming for long march were returning.
Fallacy #7- War on terror is monolithic
No its not. There are multiple groups with multiple interests and objective and each has to be considered differently. There are Afghan Taliban, there are local extremist Taliban, there is AQ, there are tribes, there are local criminals who are just involved in crimes but when attacked quickly put on black turbans to mislead people that they are holy fighters, then there are sectarian extremists who have other agenda. Fudging them all together and then continuing to bash the state of Pakistan is at best foolish. They need to segregated and then individual policies need to be crafted. There are different aspects of this situation and not every situation is our concern but some really are.
Fallacy #8- War on terror is not Pakistan’s war and therefore if Pakistan separates from it everything will be hunky dory.
This is a complex question. As stated above War on Terror is not monolithic and therefore not every aspect needs to be owned ambitiously e.g. what goes on in Afghanistan for Afghan national movement should not be our concern but when terrorists go out to hit Pakistani state should certainly be our concern and we must take responsibility for it. Suggesting that Pakistan should simply withdraw from tribal areas and everything will be hunky dory may sound cool in theory but practically it may turn out to be a recipe for disaster. The vacuum will quickly be filled by terrorists and Nato forces. Hoping that things will be hunky dory if PM of Pak steps up to say we are not part of anything is again foolish as the terrorists are hell bent on completely erasing the current face of Pakistan and its society and changing its contours according to their own dark mentalities. Just look on the banners put on different streets on 18th Feb 2008 “Hamein Jamhooriat nahein khilafat chahiye” and Sufi Mohammad’s statement “Jamhooriat kufr ka nizaam hai isay nahein manta” and the destruction of schools and ban on women and so on and so forth.
Last of all I can only express my disappointment at the posted article. It was devoid of logic and facts and was jumping around emotions and fallacies. The point that most such weak articles find their way to the top of this forum is another disappointing thing which the administrators should address. I respect others’ opinions and fully support freedom of speech yet such pathetically poor articles which only misguide people out of their emotions should not make it to the top.
Pakistan Paeindabad!!
I was very suprised to see that upon PM Gillani’s arrival in Lahore today, no journalist asked him question about Drone attacks and when are they going to stop. It appeared that all corrspondents have been sold out and asking the PM easy peasy questions. Every one was asking when are they going to join Shahbaz Sharif cabinet. No one asked any question about the terrorist who was captured in Lahore and what is the progress about the investigation about Sri Lankan Cricket Team. What a shame.
@Shah
Nice analysis with all sorts of eloborate words; Af-Pak, strategic interests, complex dimensions, Indo-Afg-Iranian nexus, contentions…nuclear program, not offcially espoused…blah blah blah.
Have you seen the visitors on this site and the discourse? One came with the pre-determined notion that muslims cannot kill muslims? Rest of them are on some sort of mission to prove the West and the people living there are some sort of twisted ego-maniacal individuals who are hell bent on destablizing Pakistan (and if i am not mistaken, probably half or more of them probably live in the West)
The issue is the mind-set of the people and that’s what i was responding to, not a heavy dose of ‘Strategic Analysis’ that is only to be understood by the rakhwalas of Pakistan.
@JavedKhan/posted-8.38pm
I also noticed that as I was also eagerly waiting to see that if Prime Minister touches on this subject. Also I would like to add that media is not put any pressure on the Govt for the removal of Rehman Malik. It appears that the Anchors are now really scared of any reprisals from Rehman Malik.
We are now posting these feelings through this platform of PKpolitics for the removal of Rehman Malik. Just imagine if we don’t have this channel how are we going to express our feelings. SO THANK YOU Admin-PKpolitics.
Still no news about any progress made by interrogating the terrorist captured in Lahore.
Come-on Admin PKpolitics start a vigorous campaign for the removal of Rehman Malik.
Just to add further to my comments posted above I would like to say that as a Baluchi I am really concerned that the Drone attacks may not start in Baluchistan. The news conference at G-20 conference in London between Obama and Gordon Brown did not send any comforting signals as far as we are concerned. Also the Indian Prime Minister ManMohan Singh is there as well despite of his illness. I am sure he is going to whisper few words in the ears of Obama.
As a loyal Pakistani and proud Baluchi who ever is killing innocent people in Lahore, Pindi or Bannu can not be true Muslim. But brother think and think hard the innocent women & children and men are also killed in these Drone attacks. So these Drone attacks must stop. Stop blaming Imran Khan that he is friend of Taliban.. Imran Khan is not supporting Taliban, in fact IK is talking sense.
I appeal again to Admin of PKpolitics to really start a campaign for the removal of Rehman Malik. I believe if this fellow is removed at least 50% of our problems will be solved. And to all die hard supporters of PPP, I would say that tomorrow when there is death anniversary of Bhutto…….there is no need to praise Bhutto as He did nothing other than breaking Pakistan. Any over excitement at this time will indirectly support the present Govt, and as we all know, Zardari has created a real mess now. In fact we need to get rid of Zardari, Rehman Malik and Salman Taseer.
I cannot thank ‘freemason’ enough for her/his explanation of where i am/was trying to come from. I do not have the facts, articulateness, enough brains, time and patience as she/he does…..
@freemason
very nice effort and really convincing arguments. I thank you for bringing some s@nity around here. Guys, we need to bring facts as @freemason has done to counter each others arguments. Just sl@ndering and point scoring will not serve the purpose but actually will work the other way.
@
ConcernedAmericanPak said:
The Obama Deception HQ Full length version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw&feature=related
2 April 2009 at 11:00 am
Many thanks for sharing this one.
@freemason
Who are these terrorists and what are their goal.
You write a lengthy diatribe without any substance.
At some point I thought you are about to say their goal is to destroy Arab & Egyptian monarchs and kings & dictators but off course you were not focused so you failed to provide substance in your wastage of ink.
You try to cover lack of quality with excess of quantity.
Few words of substance are much better than lengthy diatribe
Great job Freemason.
I hope some right wingers ‘d like to counter his/her facts, if not thoroughly at least partly , for healthy debate.
Thank you ‘bho’ & ‘bechari-awam’. I have requested the admin to put my post as an article in response to Dr. Qaiser Rashid’s article since at this depth of posts people may not read it. Please back my request to the admin if you think the post is worth it. I hope that my post generates a healthy debate and we can come up with even better arguments and ideas to protect our country and build it.
@freemason
The admin hardly let’s my posts through that are a little hard on the right-wing on this forum…
@admin
Pursuant to the request by freemason, please post his/her as an article.
Thx
@bho said: 2 April 2009 at 5:08 pm
I didn’t hear Imran’s voice when the shia-sunni violence in Khyber killed hundreds and has killed thousands in the past;
The fight in Khyber Agency is between two different schools of thought (sunni) and not shia-sunni voilence.It started will back in 2005 and Govt of Pak has remained indifferent to this issue to say the least.
@freemason,
First of all I am repulsed by your choice of the name “freemason”…….your lengthy writing of confusing the issue and justifying the foreign interference, occupation, ethnic cleansing and cultural and religious bigotry shows that you are a closet “freemason”. You are no better than a snake oil salesman, selling his product by using half truths and manipulated facts. No one in their right mind is going to support the terrorism or violence, but remember my “self proclaimed”, freemason one man’s freedom fighter is other man’s terrorist. You are regurgitating the Fox news and Zionist propaganda to justify western colonization of Afghanistan. The criminals are crimenals, their religion or race does not make them any batter or worse. You must not forget the Nato/Canad/USA/ Eastern European dung beetles are international criminals and terrorist and are just as bad as the local terrorists……….
@ConcernedAmericanPak
“You are no better than a snake oil salesman, selling his product by using half truths and manipulated facts.”
-Are you blind? The amount of facts (verifiable) posted in freemason’s post out-number all the junk that you have posted on this site. Why don’t you go and break some glass windows of a bank or something? Hatch another conspiracy theory.
“Fox News and Zionist prop…..” …”western colonization of Afghanistan”
-That’s the best you have got? How about Great Satan? Amerika kay ghulaam? Talway chaatnay walay? It’s fuc**ng 2009. Can you upgrade your talking points with the times? The same talking points were used by Russia and China just 20 years ago. Now they are sitting at the table at the G20 talking about lending more money to the West.
“Nato/Canad/USA/ Eastern European”
-What about the NATO soldiers in Bosnia protecting the muslim populace? Eastern Europe? Why the hell did Eastern Europe show up in this list? I know, Eastern Europe turned on your world view and ofcourse they are the enemy now as well. Soon, the whole world will be th enemy.
@justice4all
“The fight in Khyber Agency is between two different schools of thought (sunni) and not shia-sunni voilence.It started will back in 2005 and Govt of Pak has remained indifferent to this issue to say the least.”
My bad…I think its D.I.Khan that has that split. And, Karachi and Para Chinar and Hangu and Jhang and all of Southern and Central Iraq and Bahrain, and Southern Saudi and and….
Be proud!!!
Dear All,
I appreciate effort of everyone including freemason to comment.
The data produced by freemason is true.
In my article, I already used words like ‘assume,’ ‘presume,’ ‘ surmise’ and ’safe-guess’ indicating thereby that I had no data to prove my point. I was just making analysis. Of course, there is much more data than is produced by freemason to support the point that war on terror should be fought inside Pakistan. In case of Iraq, there was also a lot of data and perhaps figures to prove the point that Iraq should be attacked.
What I can request every reader and critic is to revisit the points already mentioned in my article, before making any conclusion:
1. For the past several months, especially in Punjab, the police are becoming the victim of the terrorist attacks, whether suicide or otherwise. The question is what message the attackers want to convey.
2. had the attackers selected any soft target, instead of the police training school, the hostage drama would not have lasted for eight hours but, understandably, for many more hours. In selection of the target and the impudent manner of attack, there are hidden many messages to perceive.
3. In case of Iraq, after several years, it was dawned that there existed no weapons of mass destruction; the logic to wage war on Iraq was faulty. But who is responsible for the bloodshed happened in Iraq during the course of war? What is punishment for those who committed wrong? Is it just to lose elections as Tony Blair of the UK and George Bush of the US did? That is not the answer. Losing election is not the retribution for the innocent blood spilled on other lands. Can it be? Ask those who have lost their loved ones.
4. what would happen if after five years of bombing and after spilling blood inside Pakistan the world declares that the information that al-Qaida is present in Pakistan is sham? Who will be held responsible for the lives lost by then? How will Pakistan recover from the loss? Will losing next election by Gordon Brown of the UK and Barak Obama of the US sufficient? Again, will losing elections be the retribution for the innocent blood spilled on the Pakistani land? Ask those who are in the line of fire.
5. [Can it be called a luck factor that] In Lahore, the lawyers used to take procession on the Mall road every Thursday for two years. In the meantime, no bomb exploded and no attack took place to hurt them. During the Long March on March 15, there were millions of Lahorites on the roads en route to Islamabad. That was the best possible opportunity for the terrorists to claim a number of casualties.
6. Are the Pakistanis waiting for the time when the soft target – name any – is hit in the name of counter-war on terrorism?
Having said that, retrospectively, the much touted ’strategic depth’ strategy of Pakistan adopted or perceived in the past harmed Pakistan, as the strategy fuelled sectarian violence in Pakistan. My experience says that bitterness in the arguments of many including freemason arises from that context. Even then, I think freemason is right. Pakistan is for all. Jinnah’s address to the Constitutent Assembly should be the guiding principle for the Govt of Pakistan to run its affairs and frame its policies, both external and internal.
I also request the admin of pkpolitics to post the article of freemason to offer freemason opportunity to give vent to the pent up feelings.
Long Live Pakistan!
This was posted on the Bolta Pakistan video section for today. I just thought it was more necessary here. And please don’t post the videos of Americans bombing the sh*t out of the Iraqi’s or Afghanis in response. Those are Americans bombing. These are residents of Swat canabalizing each other (or being allowed to by…)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/02/taliban-pakistan-justice-women-flogging
I knew this stuff happened but i don’t know how it can be condoned. And why is there a video? Isn’t video haram or something?
@freemason,very good article.no one can dare to oppose it.
@qaiserrashid
Dear Sir,
Let me assure you I have no pent up feelings. I do disagree with you (vehemently) but I mean no disrespect to you or anyone and my post did not include any personal attack or any slandering against anyone on this forum. My request to admin was to invite a more healthy debate.
Now I was opposed to nearly all your points and let me elaborate some of them again:
In your last post you yourself said, “I had no data to prove my point. I was just making analysis.” And that is what I am strongly opposed to – making analysis without data. Maybe you chose the wrong words. Maybe you were just trying to start a debate or discussion based on some observations. So allow me to assume that you were trying to start a discussion, to lead to more solid concrete points, based on some observations you made.
(Points refer to your above post)
1. I agree with your point that we should ponder over this question to see if a message lies underneath.
2. This point is linked with the above.
3 & 4. If you are still questioning whether AQ is present in Pakistan then I am surprised. AQ is not two individuals (AlZawahri & OBL) its a big network and I have quoted in my post top leadership of AQ arrested in Pakistan where Khaled Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind of 9/11 and Libbi was number in 3 in AQ. There are many other names as well but I am leaving them for want of time. Other names in my earlier post stand.
5. To suggest that long march was peaceful is not entirely correct. Some news died in the hub hub of the day. The Punjab government claimed capturing two suicide bombers on 15th March in Lahore. I know nobody trusts Salman Taseer and Rehman Malik and I don’t either but I am just presenting an official statement. A suicide attack did take place on 16th March 2009, the day of long march in Rawalpindi. 14 people died and 17 were injured but the news got lost in the ‘bhangras’ and ‘jashans’ of the day. Who knows whether these 14 innocent people were headed to long march or to CJ’s house!! The crowd on that day did indeed get hit sadly.
6. I am utterly surprised at this point made by you. Please look at the chronology of terrorist incidents in Pakistan since 2001 and find a ratio of how many soft targets have already been hit and the number is much more than hard targets. The chronology is available on wikipedia.
Sir, to negate your statement, I have no bitterness just disappointment at the approach and attitude of my co-countrymen. My disappointment stems from the absence of thought and reasoning and the reluctance to use facts as a basis of opinion and knowledge. In response to my post, I hardly got facts and figures and opinions based on them. I would have loved if someone had educated me by standing up and smashing my arguments by factual arguments and instead what I got from participants of the forum so far is:
“a lengthy diatribe without any substance” (without substance…woah!!)
one lady/gentleman is repulsed by my alias!! (fine I’ll change my name to ‘praim_ki_diwani’)
the same respectable person accuses me of:
“justifying the foreign interference, occupation, ethnic cleansing and cultural and religious bigotry ” (please tell me where my post does that)
“no better than a snake oil salesman” (a personal attack)
“selling his product by using half truths and manipulated facts” (kindly tell me which fact was manipulated)
“regurgitating the Fox news and Zionist” (bravo, the last resort of ‘momineen’ is to accuse their opponents of this thing but it came too early)
This is the kind of attitude which I am opposed to and I strongly condemn. Otherwise I have no hard feelings and would still welcome solid factual criticism and a healthy debate.
Pakistan Paeindabad!!
Its good to know I am not the only one whose comments are filtered by @admin. I think unless you praise Imran and Taliban you have to go through this moderation filter.
@admin, please post @freemason’s article in response to right wing propoganda on war
aginast terror. Second world war was not America’s war until Pearl Harbour. At this point it is as much Pakistan’s war as America’s. The price that we have paid is much more than America.
On this site I have a feeling UK based Pakistanis are more pro-Taliban than Pakaistan based or US based Pakistanis. If this is true there must be scientific reason for that it can’t be just coincedence.
This is the kind of Pakistan Dr. Qaisar Rashid is dreaming of. I hope his wishes never come true.
Young girl flogged in public by Taliban
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/04/090402_taliban_girl_flogging_fz.shtml
I cant just stand this one from the so called TALIBAN,it should be an eye opener to all of us.I was unable to watch it for a 3rd time.Its painful to watch it and you understands the LANGUAGE the poor little girl speaks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8i_aovQYQQ
She is given this SOFT punishment for stepping outside her home defying these cowards.
The poor little girl is crying in pain and asking for a break as its getting unbearable.The TALIB flogging her replies,YOU told me , I wont be scared even if u kill me.YOU lucky i dont have my knife to cut your throat.
@“Freemason” and the fan club, what facts freemason has stated are mostly accurate about the fact that there are predominantly Arab extremists who are in the tribal area’s fighting a proxy war for their causes and using the strong faith of the local Muslims and taking advantage of their dire poverty and hospitality. Now on the flip side the western powers are fighting a proxy war against these Arab extremists in the south Asia/ Central Asia and people like freemason and his fan club are there bitches. My point is that both parties are playing with the lives of the local people of the Afghans and Pakistani alike, and both of the foreign intruders and invaders should go back to where they came from and let the locals settle their differences by force or negotiations. I hope it get in your heads….all three of you, the “democrat”, the bho and freemason are using the names of the “western warmongers and war criminals” and are pretending to be the friends of Pakistan. Why don’t you be honest with all and tell them your agenda is to justify the Western rape and pledge of the locals in the name of war for terror….you three are like a skunk pretending to be a cat, but the foul smell of your interior motives and argent name selection tells me that what you are…pls stop saying Pakistan Paeindabad!! That is so repulsive coming from you.
Obama, Freemason, Related
To Both Bush, Cheney
Obama outlines his ambitious geopolitical plans in a recent essay for Foreign Affairs magazine. Foreign Affairs is published by the Council on ForeignRelations, which describes itself as a non-partisan group of which he is a member. Established in the 1920’s and headquartered in New York, its membership includes prominent politicians and business elite, including heads of academia and media. The organization seeks to centralize both political power and market power to craft legislation outside the checks and balances of democracy.
The CFR is rarely mentioned by the mainstream media… Obama is also a 32nd degree Prince Hall Freemason loyal to the Craft and devoted to his principles so forget about the “changes” and start thinking about the same old , same old , coming once again into power.
Obama is illuminati aristocracy. his appearence from ‘nowhere’, and subsequent rocket to the front of the political line are no coincidence. Believe it or not, Barack Obama is related to both President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney as you can check here:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10172007/news/regional
news/dissing_cousins__obama__cheney.htm
So, the possible scenario is that Hillary might become the Vice President of Obama at the end of this political show , but in any case let’s enjoy what the American call Democracy a good show in the hands of the usual suspects , and remember America the Pope is coming with His Blessings this spring..ha..ha….and make sure Brother Obama doesnt miss his Zionist masonic meetings as he would love to be the main actor in the reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem.
Maybe the next AntiChrist to hit the US presidential scene will be darker then some people have expected.
http://www.rense.com/general80/obmw.htm
@ataraxis6
@justice4all
Yes this is an utterky condemnable act. But so are all the other unspeakable acts that are perpetrated up and down Pakistan and the rest of the world against women.
I suggest you read ‘Manufacturing Consent’ by Noam Chomksy.
Or watch the brilliant doc:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5631882395226827730
Freemasons and Islam……
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/layiktez1.html
@ConcernedAmericanPak
Dude, you have some serious mental problems (Obama is related to Bush and Hillary and blah blah, Free Masons…Temple meetings? You know this is the propaganda used by the right-wing media that is dead-set against Obama and is for nuking all of the Middle East?) Aren’t we all related through Adam and Eve? Wtf are you smoking?
“Now on the flip side the western powers are fighting a proxy war against these Arab extremists in the south Asia/ Central Asia and people like freemason and his fan club are there bitches..”
Well, then what’s the argument? By this logic, aren’t you ’standing-up’ for the rights of the Taliban, and if so, you are their (Arabs) bi*ches. Right? To me you are more of a ‘munkir’ and ‘munafik’ then.
@concernedamericanpak,these bloody talban destroyed our schools,our shops and our social life and u want america,west even pakistan leave us on the mercey of talban.sitting in america u can talk all that shit,live with us why u sitting in america.
@freeemason
”
Fallacy #7- War on terror is monolithic
No its not. There are multiple groups with multiple interests and objective and each has to be considered differently. There are Afghan Taliban, there are local extremist Taliban, there is AQ, there are tribes, there are local criminals who are just involved in crimes but when attacked quickly put on black turbans to mislead people that they are holy fighters, then there are sectarian extremists who have other agenda. Fudging them all together and then continuing to bash the state of Pakistan is at best foolish. They need to segregated and then individual policies need to be crafted. There are different aspects of this situation and not every situation is our concern but some really are.
”
I fully agree with the suggestion put forward and this is the point the saner elements in Pakistan and the World have been trying to put forth. When Imran Khan says the hearts of 1.5 million armed people of FATA need to be won over and with the local population on Government’s side we can successfully isolate & engage the elements furthering their Anti-Pakistan agenda under the guise of “Islam, Taliban or Anti-Americanism”.
1) Elements engaged in anti-Pakistan activities must be decimated. (Though some would argue here we need to start from the Presidency but thats another topic for discussion altogether)
2) The infrastructure is available in FATA for any of Pakistan’s enemies to use to further their own objectives. What the STATE of Pakistan MUST not be doing is giving rise to genuine greivances among the populace that can be successfully exploited by foreign powers.
@ConcernedAmericanPak
“pls stop saying Pakistan Paeindabad!! That is so repulsive coming from you”
Pakistan’s creation is credited to Muhammad Ali Jinnah, not your ‘mamaji’. Who are you to ask us not to say Pakistan Paeindbad?
To me you sound more like a Concerned Ex Sovietman than a Concerned Pakistani? You do not have facts, no considerations of realities on the ground (except that the Pashtoons are being used by the Arabs to fight the West). Your facts consists of right-wing propoganda in the US, who are the same people who you are calling the devil. That looks, sounds and is really twisted.
Dear Freemason and all,
Thanks for your comments.
In my article I narrowed the scope to two points: 1, Lahore; 2, the Police. It seems to me that the readers including you overlooked these points and took the article having a broader/general scope.
In my article I produced only one fact — but it was a hard fact: look, how Iraq has been destroyed! There was also a lot of data to make Iraq suffer.
Nevertheless, I can defend one point, every Thursday, I used to accompany the lawyers on the Mall road, Lahore. By so doing, I was equally exposed to any suicide bomber. Nothing happened ever — even not during the Long March. In the incidents you mentioned, the police remained the target. This point tells discrimination done by the attackers. The point is if a situation arrives when this discrimination is lost, for instance, in Lahore, what would happen then?
In the name of war on terror, are we ready to see Pakistan a replica of Iraq episode?
What my article is trying to project is that Pakistanis wake up. Another Iraq is taking birth in your country. Don’t let the war on terror make inroads. Show solidarity with the tribal belt and settle the matters with them amicably.
By writing article and getting it published/displayed, I did my part of duty. If someone disagrees for the sake of disagreement that is not my headache.
Regards,
Dr Qaisar Rashid
The Author
Lahore.
Neo-Taliban? I can see them adopting new names like Mawlana Ahmad Rumsfeld-khan, Mullah Ali George Bush-zad, or Sidi Mustapha Dick Chayne-stan.
This is a good read for the three angered pro western dung beetles, the Masonic, the demorat and the “’Bachi”(little girl) of H Obama…..bho…
The rise and rise of the neo-Taliban
By Syed Saleem Shahzad
KARACHI – With the number of international soldiers in Afghanistan at an all-time high, they are prepared for their toughest season yet of fighting the Taliban-led insurgency that has grown beyond recognition in the past seven-plus years.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KD02Df01.html
Nizam e Adal’s advocates!
Could you please take a moment to shed some light on the cell phone video of Taliban’s quick and cheap justice? Imran Khan spends quite a bit of time explaining (not justifying) suiside bombing I wonder him or any of his fan ‘d like to explain this video.
bho, “Bachi of H Obama”, you little girl, sounds like that 5th largest army in the world the Pakistan army can not defend you little girl and you have henna on your hands and can not carry a gun to defend your homeland from your local war lords and criminals, so you need the Nato and Americans to defend your right to ware a mini skirt…. Don’t worry, help is on its way…………
Afghan-Pakistan situation dire; more troops may be needed
WASHINGTON — The situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan is “increasingly dire,” top defense officials told Congress Wednesday, and they said that President Barack Obama may have to send another 10,000 troops beyond the 21,500 he’s announced since taking office.
Michele Flournoy, the undersecretary of defense for policy, said the administration hasn’t yet developed benchmarks to measure progress, but she predicted high human and financial costs for the U.S. in the campaign against Islamic militants in the two countries.
Adding to the bleak picture, Army Gen. David Petraeus, the commander of the U.S. Central Command, expressed doubts about the reliability of Pakistani security forces in supporting the U.S. effort to curb the spread of Islamic extremism in South Asia.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/65299.html
@faria,3 April 2009 at 1:06 am
No doubt there are problems else where as well but these BEASTS are doing it in the name of islam,2ndly the VICTIM in this video is probably in her early teens.Just think of the poor family in context of their CULTURE what is left for them in life?You drag their women into streets to punish them in front of public.
All this is going on with the covert support of pakistan,s security establishment and now the whole population has been abandon by the pakistani state while everybody is praising them for implementing SHARIA LAW.
@ Kashif
Why don’t you ask the secularists ANP and PPP who have signed off on the agreement. The irony of it all.
@qaisarrashid
“In the name of war on terror, are we ready to see Pakistan a replica of Iraq episode?”
Dr. Sahib, it’s going to become a self- fulfilling prophecy if you are going to continue on this thought process.
What’s going to be the rationale for going to war against Pakistan? Here is the statement from Adm. Mullen from today:
Mullen comfortable with Pak nukes
http://thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21301
The US cannot occupy Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea and still maintain troops in over 150 countries around the world, while occupying Pakistan. They are powerful, but not that powerful. I would recommend that you get in tocuh with some defense analysts and ask them as to how they have war-gamed this scenario, which you are suggesting. I don’t think the out-come of any of those scenarios leads to the US occupying Pakistan.
Yes, it can become a reality if you hand over the country to Taliban. They have a little base here is Swat:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/02/taliban-pakistan-justice-women-flogging
I have a better idea, let’s initiate the war with the US!!!!
@qaisarrashid
I appreciate your acknowledgment about not presenting analysis based on facts in the article. To earn credebility in subsequent posts please use right pharases, it’s ‘Overseas Contigency Operation’ not ‘War against Terror’ any more.
@Kashif
Ever had a daisy cutter pierce through your ba**s?
Ever had a bunker buster violate your anal sanctity?
What this video is showing is barbaric and makes my heart cry but has nothing to do with anything being discussed here you can not throw this videon in my face to justify the brutality of this UNJUST, DECEITFUL Global Struggle for furthering the Developed worlds’ Agenda being played out in my region.
Brother, We all seem to be in agreement on targetting all those engaged in anti-Pakistan activities, the point of disagreement arises where our personal bias/hatered pollutes our view and leads us to vouch for the blood of those disliked or least liked by us.
I am all for decimating Pakistan’s internal enemies irrespective of the size of their beards but we need a saner approach to dealing with this mess which can only be acheived if Pakistan formulates a policy of its own and grows some ba**s.
@justice4all
I agree that it is barbaric. Please do not bring Shariah into it. These morons do not have the grounding in Islamic theology to make such a claim that they are implementing shariah. Men in most cultures have a pretext for their repressive actions against women. It is a way of self empowerment for them, either in a society or in the heirarchy of said society. There is nothing just in this.
Did you know that two women a day die from domestic abuse every week in the UK. 1 in 20 women have been raped in the UK. I personally know a girl who was dragged by the hair accross a busy London street by a stranger and raped in a park. No-one jumped out of their car to stop him.
Whether someone does this in the name of Islam or some other reason the end result is all the same. Unless we educate and cultivate a sense of self worth and opportunity for both men and women we will get nowhere in Pakistan.
By the way I am half Pathan and half Punjabi. Believe me some of the undercurrents of Punjabi society make my skin crawl. In my experience the sexual harrassment by Punjabi men is far more revolting in numerous ways. I find brothers from the NWFP far more respectful. No offence to anyone!
@faria
ANP and PPP made a deal in Sawat to bring peace but always said its a bitter pill. On the other hand Imran Khan defends and applauds nizam e adal. I wish Imran or his followers can either defend or condem it. You can’t just pass the mic to secular parties when tough questions are asked on nizam e adal. Either stop propoganda or defend its darkest shades.
@hadi26
We were sharing posts earlier before i saw the jet-set Imran Bhai giving us a lecture on tribal culture and history and quoting Rand Corp. facts in a news confrence (Intresting how pkpolitics.com, and Imran’s news confrence coincided in regards to the topic. However, no issues on my part if this is a Therek-e-Insaaf forum).
Anyways, what does IK recommend if let’s say the Americans are out of Afghanistan in the next, aaaa, 24 months. Obama gives 1 year for the current strategy to work, if it doesn’t work, he comes for a meeting with IK and says 1 yest from now, NATO and American troops are pronto out of IK ancestrial land (however i think Imran’s mother is from India).
Then what should we do? What’s the next step? How do we solve Swat? The Swat argument was, implment Nizaam-e-Adal and the winds will be out of the Talibans’ sails. Well, seems like they have a motor-boat now. Where is IK’s solution on this, please kindly advise?
@bho..
I have a better idea, let’s initiate the war with the US!!!!
Don’t you wish you fool, leave the good doctor alone, he has a right to express his point of view. You are so foolish that you and Altaf Bahi believe that a hand full ragtag militia men will come and takeover Pakistan. Both of you are either “eunuchs by hart” or are insulting the Pak army and 170 million non Taliban Pakistanis. You are spreading the lies and propaganda that Taliban are some huge force which can takeover the sixth largest population on earth. Go do your homework you scared chilled, how many Taliban’s are in the world? In Afghanistan, in Pakistan? Americans and The Nato has no right to fight other peoples wars. Why don’t you and one million MQM armed men and volunteers fight against the 30 to 40 thousand Taliban’s and free your country from the monster of “Islamic Taliban’s”. You are either borderline paranoid or are a shill who’s job is to spared the misinformation about the current situation in Pakistan…..
@qaiserrashid,
Dear Qaiser,
I am not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement, I am raising my voice because your thesis is wrong and misleading and I am giving facts to support this stance of mine which you are continuously overlooking.
1- Your thesis –> Pakistan is being pushed into the same situation as Iraq and that too much data existed for Iraq as well.
Correct yourself, a lot of data did not exist on Iraq and that is why the US was never able to get an attack approved by the UN. The scanty, flimsy intelligence that the neocons used to justify their attack on Iraq never got passed the UN and all the US Secretary of State was able to present to the UN was graphics and no real images. Even the UN Inspector Hans Blix refused to state that enough data exists for war. This was public information and that is why even the western countries e.g. France & Germany did not back the US. Neocons wanted to attack Iraq, they came with flimsy evidence and it was shot down in international court of opinion and that is why US and Britian took the solo flight. In case of Pakistan, Pakistani agencies have themselves caught top AQ leadership and I have quoted multiple names (all caught by ISI). I am NOT suggesting that entire AQ leadership resides in Pakistan and nobody at any level is suggesting that. The point is that we do not know where they are. They may be in Pakistan and they may not be in Pakistan. In this case we must exert our best efforts to kick out any AQ that MIGHT exist in Pakistan. Based on the number of people caught in Pakistan we are NOT able to give the world a 100% assurance that our hands are clean. They MIGHT be clean and they MIGHT not be clean. To exert effort to clean our hands is our job.
2- Your thesis –> “every Thursday, I used to accompany the lawyers on the Mall road, Lahore. By so doing, I was equally exposed to any suicide bomber. Nothing happened ever — even not during the Long March. In the incidents you mentioned, the police remained the target.”
My goodness, I have quoted three incidents where long march related activities were targeted and in two such incidents all the casualties were EXCLUSIVELY civilian and on police officer was killed or injured in them. In the third one, the casualties were majority of the police but not exclusively of the police and civilians were also part of them. Let me again quote the three incidents:
a) July 17, 2007 At least 17 people were killed and 50 injured as a suicide bomber blew himself up outside the venue of the district bar council convention in Islamabad killing mostly PPP political workers waiting for the arrival of Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, who was to address a lawyers convention (EXCLUSIVELY CIVILIAN CASUALTIES)
b) January 10, 2008 24 people were killed and 73 injured in a suicide attack when the policemen were deliberately targeted outside Lahore High Court before the scheduled lawyer’s protest against the government in provincial capital of Lahore. (MAJORITY POLICE BUT CIVILIANS ALSO INCLUDED)
c) March 16, 2009 At least 14 people were killed and 17 injured on Monday when a suicide bomber blew himself up near the busiest bus stand of Rawalpindi at Pirwadhai when people coming for long march were returning. (EXCLUSIVELY CIVILIAN).
You were lucky that you weren’t part of any of these three incidents and for that you should thank God rather than the militants who you think (wrongly) are discriminating between police and civilians.
3- Your thesis –> Militants are discriminating between Police (hard targets) and civilians and your words “This point tells discrimination done by the attackers. The point is if a situation arrives when this discrimination is lost, for instance, in Lahore, what would happen then?”
Wrong, wrong, wrong!! My goodness, for God’s sake one cannot be so blind to facts. The extremists are putting their hands on whatever they are getting. They are NOT discriminating. There is NO discrimination between civilians and police/military as far as civilians are concerned. I have already quoted the above three incidents to counter your argument and please visit this link which tells about the chronology of terrorist incidents in Pakistan and find out for yourself how much discrimination has been shown by terrorists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Pakistan
There is no shame in accepting that you are wrong. If facts prove you wrong then there is no point in sticking to your flawed reasoning. But if you do “its not my headache”.
@ConcernedAmericanPak
In any of my post I have not given any support to any western, zionist, foreign wrong doing and I have not defended the global western policies. I have only discussed activities of extremists only so do not associate with me things which I never said. And stop using dirty language and mud slinging for no good reason. If your mental pockets are empty then try learning something from others rather than beating the trumpet to expose yourself more. If you can educate me about something, I am all ears.
My final post in this thread as I have realized where the other side of opinion is going after finding themselves out of ammo!! Still I would welcome a factual counter argument and sound reasoning to educate myself.
@ConcernedAmericanPak
I will raise Pakistan Paeindabad more loudly and you are a nobody to tell me that I cannot raise my country’s slogan.
Pakistan Paeindabad!!
@bho
If we are going to have an issue-oriented, as opposed to a personality-oriented, discussion, we might actually get somewhere.
Like I was pleading with Kashif, we all seem to have the same ultimate objective of securing Pakistan internally and externally, but our own bias and hatered towards certain personalitues pollutes our view. I dont know the history between you and IK but he must have done something, at a personal leve, to deserve your wrath as clearly as far as his public life is concerned, there aint no other like him.
To answer your question, what to do with SWAT post American withdrawl, I would not view the situation there in the narrow context of this War on Terror, such barbaric behaviour is deep-rooted in our society and needs social action rather than military action. What this video is showing is no different to “Panchayets” ordering gang rape of women in parts of Punjab and Sindh, it is no different to the mass burial of women in Balochistan.
Dear Freemason,
I respect your opinion.
I also depart and take sleep.
Regards,
Dr Qaisar Rashid
The Author
@faria said: ,3 April 2009 at 2:25 am
I am not the one who is bringing sharia/Islam into it.They are claiming to be the true followers of Islam and want to implement it all over Pakistan.I have seen your previous post in other threads praising the govt decision to concede to these monsters in swat.I myself have kept quite when they closed cd/barbershops in my town declaring it un-Islamic.But then this there is no ending to it.It will go on and on.
Dont you think we have a serious problem?Dont you think people of swat/FATA/NWFP are suffering?Dont we pashtoons deserve any help from our fellow Pakistanis?
I dont have any love for western culture but these REACTIONARIES(militants) are robbing me of my culture.
Its a well written article and there are points to ponder if a solution is to be sought other than following blindly with american mantra of our war or war on terror.
@ freemason & bho….you are just clueless in your comments and represent this less than 1% who just don’t want to see beyond your western imposed ideals and propaganda.
to freemasons points :
1) most of alqaeda personnel captured in pakistan are from punjab’s big citiess like faisalabad ,pindi.gujrat and lahre. there are a few captured in peshawar but none captued in FATA or SWAT. thats not the issue even if alqaeda is in pakistan pakistan have to hunt them down through intelligence and isolating them not targetting the population around them.
Also can you tell me how much of we hear of pressure from US or UN on Saudi Arabia from where all the 19 hijacker came and all the iraq insurgency was fought from there by alqaeda.
2) all attacks attributed to islamic militants are never owned by them , the one that targeted the CJ movement were carried by our so called agencies which were under musharraf had nothing but to defend his dictatorship . if you keep a tally of all attacks ..you could tell which one were from the militants and which ones are from our agencies.
3) can you tell how much our pak fauj is trying to avoid civilian casualties?
IK is the only politician with a clear concept on ths insurgency problem…and he is bold enough to say it without being defensive.
these Talibans were no where before 2004 and still now our government has no explanation to how this movement is getting stronger and who are its external supporters. the answers are too harsh for government to accept as its only there failed policies which have made it grow day by day and use of indiscrimnate power against your own population which has turned the entire population agianst the army and government.
its ironic to see people don’t speak against the insurgency in Balochistan which has a nationalistic color yet the violence is same that shows the biase of ISLAM haters on this forum.
but whatever & how loud these liberal neocon fascits chant in line with their master US .the war is pretty much over ….. the US will soon leave afghanistan and our ARMY and this puppet government will lick thier spits and will beg for negotiations but perhaps it would be too late then.
May ALLAH protect all muslims and Pakistan and make it a castle of islam.
3)
@justice4all and to some extent the “Masonic Muslim”, we all are in agreement that no one has a right to impose their religious believes upon others in a country which has its own laws and norms.
The simple answer to that is that we do have Muslim fascists who want to be the judge and the jury in the country and impose so called Islamic laws.
Now the reality is that the country of Pakistan’s name is Islamic republic of Pakistan and 1973 constitution under the rule of a compulsive womanizer, alcoholic, narcissistic, egomaniacal token Muslim Z.A .Bhutto, was written with the Islam in the mind and has most of the Islamic laws implemented or promised to the religious parties at that time.
The irony is that Bhutto did what no mullah could have done to make Pakistani constitution Islamized. We are trying to have it both way’s, be Islamic and enlighten moderate or moderately Islamic at the same time.
This issue is not as simple as it seams, the religious ambiguity, economical deprivation and Saudi and Gulf Islamic influence and the western counter influence has created a mess, which no one wants to take on.
We need an open debate on the subject and consolidate our education system from three opposing systems, the religious seminaries, the public Urdu medium and A and O level British master race education system to now homogenized system with one set of values and universally accepted syllabus.
We must confront the foreign influence of the Arabs and the Europeans and reject their way of living and find a middle way as a Pakistani way, thus be united as a nation and than fight the extremists with local papules behind the law and order institutions.
@ConcernedAmericanPak said: 3 April 2009 at 4:12 am
I agree with you on all most all points u made.
@fanaticmulla
I’m not new, just don’t comment much. But thanks for the info, it’s just very disturbing too see the strange mind sets..
@freemason
First, hats off to you for the research painstakingly done, and providing dates, names, and events to demonstrate the fallacy of the underlying assumptions of the article.
But more important, do you think either the author, or those who agree with him, were really not aware of these facts? Not for a minute do I believe that most people didn’t know this.
The fact that only those like myself who disagreed completely with the assertions in this article before reading your rebuttal (though I refrained from posting any comment since the arguments were so obviously flawed), are still the only ones who wholly challenge the theories contained in it, should be an eye opener.
It is utterly useless to reason with, or present facts or research to, completely unreasonable people. Your reason will not overcome their emotional responses.
I request admin to please post article named ‘Game Over’, by Omar Khan in Dawn (2 April). It is a quality article to be read and debated.
I agree with the article.
You hit our guests, we hit your guests.
You hit our trainers, we hit your trainers.
Tit-for-Tat.
After all it is pak govt who allows drone flights so they are fully to blame.
@freemason
you are missing the new Great Game of twenty first century.
Thx
Gull & Fremason & all the sickular fanatics pl tell us who are these so called Islamic terrorists.
We need to know their names, who is their head & what are their goals.
So far everything in the air because theres always a group to claim the responsibility.
I know some big names in Pakistani Islamic culture of wahabi heritage, like wafaqul Madaris & other setups, Molana Saleemullah Khan, Taq Usmani & Many more.
Give me one example or statement from these people where they preach or condone terrorism.
I know Hafiz Saeed as a teacher from UET Lahore, I can guarantee he is non violent & not a terrorist.
Who is this Baithullah Mehsud, we never knew him, his name just recently pop up.
Yes we do know the names of Bin Ladin & Mullah Omar but where they are, are they dead or alive.
These sickularists believe other side of conspiracy theory i.e. theres no Zionist conspiracy but they strongly believe in Islamist conspiracy where people hardly have means to sustain their sustenance.
Conspiracy has to come from where people have money resources & time & a reason.
I can do in a single attempt to occupy one room in Guls’s house by force but to continue my occupation of that room, force alone is not enough, I have to conspire because my existence in that room in the first place is not justified.
Remember that room in Gul’s house is of strategic importance, its kind of door to treasure of oil all around in the region.
These Islamist are not even player in this broader global conspiracy, they are just tools to play with & then discard.
Americans are still sunned why next day after 9/11, 45 members of Bin Ladin Family & altogether 130 high profile Saudis were put on a plane to Riyadh. They were badly needed for investigation.
Freemason would never believe in such conspiracies because of choice of his infamous ID here.
Someone has to tell me why first AIDS casuality was reported in 1975 few years after the first detrimental agent was tested to attack human immune system.
Why Saddam was given anthrax tipped Missiles to use against whom, unfortunately those missiles were used against American Forces in first Gulf War, Bush Sr & Dick Chenny knew well about them still they expose their troops to these missiles.
Their crimes does not end here, about 10000 soldiers are infected with anthrax & American have the antidot but soldiers are treated for psychiatric disorder, these lambs are sacrificed just to hide their crimes.
I have a big list of their conspiracies & crimes but nowhere comes the Islamists in the picture.
To all you Imran Khan bashers.
Why do you guys despise him so much? Get your facts right and don’t distrot the issues. He has an opnion just like anyone else. Use the power of vote to keep him out if you harbor some prejudice against the man for one reason or another.
I have never heard him defending the acts of Taliban like bombings, beheadings, flogging and all. By him saying Westerners should pull out doesn’t mean he approves of atrocity being commited by some thugs.
No sane man would defend their acts anyway.
@msohail83
They are worried of his spreading popularity … he will win more seat in next General Election Insha Allah ,, this thing worries them…
one thing is clear this not 20th century ,,, now media has whown every one’s acts and openion at the table ,,, and the general public is much aware of ever one’s acts in our politocs…
why openion polls show N sharef most Popular … because he speaks what ordinary Pakistani thinks …. and so AS Imran Khan…
We are proud of him …. A man who will never hide his adendity….like other bay zameeer who when not in power stay in europ…
Some are there hate this country and make rubbish speached from Abroad … and never say word in favaour of Pakistan and against India and US…
IK we support u
http://jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/03-04-2009/col7.htm
it is really unfortunate that IK is presumed by most of the people as Taliban spokesman ..i think Imran should now come out of the circle which JI people has around him..most of the people who wanted change in system thought that yes it is IK who will bring change but unfortunately we will miss that change for the time being, IK`s slogan for “social and economic Justice” is over shadowed by his support for Talibans ..this should be really a matter of concern for IK and PTI..as a well wisher of PTI, i request IK to get rid of this image of “being Taliban spokesman” ..it will really harm his basic agenda of “social and economic justice”..Talibans has nothing to do with this “social and economic justice” thing, and believe me they will not consult any Ik when they will implement their brand of shariat to whole Pakistan
I supported IK since 1996 and my best wishes are with him but i will think 1000 times now before voting for PTI due to IK`s pro taliban stance..
I am with IK and PTI if they come vack to real agenda of “social and economic justice” ..but I am against IK if he wish Pakistn to be taken over by Taliban ..
@
kashif
yes brother you are not only one whose comments go under moderation, anyone who have opinion against Taliban has to go through this moderation..
@Gul
“@freemason
The fact that only those like myself who disagreed completely with the assertions in this article before reading your rebuttal (though I refrained from posting any comment since the arguments were so obviously flawed), “
Right. (You didn’t post do did not want to face the rebuttals. You chickened out
“It is utterly useless to reason with, or present facts or research to, completely unreasonable people. Your reason will not overcome their emotional responses.”
Ms Gul, we ALREADY KNOW where you stand from your previous articles that have graced this sight. nly you and your kind are “reasonable”? Utterly shameful comment by you.
“I request admin to please post article named ‘Game Over’, by Omar Khan in Dawn (2 April). It is a quality article to be read and debated.”
Having not read it (and doubt I’ll read it after your “endorsement”) I am certain what makes it “quality article” is the fact that it seconds your distortions and confirms your fears.
@Gul
(I am sure you also believe yourself to be completely unbiased too )
@nota
For reasons outlined in my post above, I do not like to address people such as yourself. Kindly reciprocate and do not expect any responses from me.
@Gul
“I do not like to address people such as yourself. Kindly reciprocate and do not expect any responses from me.”
I know you cannot address people like myself and I really don’t want you to (nor am I expecting it
). And when I am typing “@Gul” it is really not addressed to you but because i am quoting something you said and really don’t care for your response because i know what that will be. 
So save your self some typing …
@nota
I think we have been a little bit harsh against Gul (Bukhari) regarding his cr@ppy baboo articles.
Btw welcome to Gul’s “ignore club”. It’s an honor
Maybe I was the first member in this anti-baboo(n) club
@Shirkuh
i think we are better of speaking the truth rather than forming group for pro-something and anti-something.
where are my friend who say this evil is not ours its US/INDIAN/ISRAELI agents.
look at this
نوعمر لڑکی کو سرعام کوڑوں کی سزا
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/04/090402_taliban_girl_flogging_fz.shtml
Few ‘muslims’ applying their ‘interpretation of Shariyat’ implementing on others.
Why don’t our Favourite CJP Take a SUO MOTTO against them.
you know why
because its doesn’t give a good ‘publicity’
@freemason wrote
“If you are still questioning whether AQ is present in Pakistan then I am surprised. AQ is not two individuals (AlZawahri & OBL) its a big network and I have quoted in my post top leadership of AQ arrested in Pakistan”
Man whom he is kidding “Big Network”
We start hearing the words “Al-Qaida” just few months before 9/11.
If Bin Ladin is still alive, he would be scared to sneeze loudly for the fear of trace.
I don’t know how he buy the guns now, I am sure the moment money leaves his pocket would be frozen in the air.
Freemason trying to make us believe that a bunch of Islamic extremists, who flourished initially with the help of Masa, are now a big NETWORK.
What Masa as a sole super power has been doing all along these 10 years, instead of containing them, Masa had let them develop into big network.
Masa in their resort are ruthless,
they will freeze accounts,
they will carpet bomb,
they will buy people with covert money,
they will abduct people from their homes to keep them in worldwide detention centers because their beard grows too long,
they will provide anthrax to kill your own kind but still failed to
contain this Islamic extremist bunch into becoming a BIG NETWORK.
This freemason is the same jerk who can not discriminate into Defence Lawyer & FoulPlaying Sharifuldin Peerzadah.
@aly
“i think we are better of speaking the truth”
The position I have expressed about the Taliban issue comes from the bottom of my heart. I dare not to lie since I am convinced that I will be answerable on the day judgement!
Aly
my only regret is that……it was that girl instead of you!