Recently, there has been a surge in articles and news in western media and some segments of Pakistani media, that might well be a planned propaganda campaign to portray the Taliban threat exaggerated a million times in attempts at creating a wave of terror and fear amongst world and specifically western societies , and consequetly build a case against Paksitan as a country and nation. More explicitly, it can be a campaign to de-nuclearise Pakistan, and finally disintegration of the country.
Propaganda is very much on same lines as was propaganda of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) before Invasion of Iraq. Later, when quite naturally, a resistance movement against US and Allied forces started in Iraq, WMD issue got burried somewhere, but only after achieving the main objective.
It must be noted that most of the political and media representatives belonging to areas under Taliban influence, who are the closest to the ground realities have a totally different point of view than the force in action for propaganda war.
Taliban issue is there, but the most important issue should be to discuss the threats and making a strategy with consensus. Time have to save ourselves from any plans to de-nuclearise Paksitan and invasion by any foreign forces in future. But it seems that the war has just started with a WMD Propaganda about Taliban taking over Pakistan.
Please discuss how we could verify the threat as real threat and counter any exaggerated propaganda to counter the first step of invasion.
A strategy to counter any real threats from extremist elements can be part of overall plan to achieve the above mentiond final objective.
Here is an interview from a taliban commander from BUNER,this guy really surprised me with his rational talk and i am just wondering who doing these beheading and suicide bombing and all this stuff.
http://www.dunyanews.tv/newsite/play_program_video.php?id=1512&pid=375
The west may be exagerating the threat of the Taliban’s take over of Pakistan, but there is enough truth to it on the ground to make all that plausible. So unless that reality is changed, and the state’s writ is clearly established in areas under Taliban’s control/influence, there is not much we can do to counter the international propaganda that the Taliban are gradualy taking over the country. Once the state clearly establishes its writ in certain places, we can show videos etc of life having come back to normal and invite anyone to see for themselves if they don’t believe us.
Had it not been our immortal habit of blaming others for all of our short comings we could have been a way better nation than today, we never accepted that there are problems, always tried to hide our filth. First step to solve any problem is to identify it which we so conveniently pass to others, our verdict on everything “Oh ji umreeka/India kar raha hai jo kuch kar raha”. My question is what are we doing to stop these things. For a second lets suppose they are doing it, why are we so weak that they are allowed to do even things which they can’t even do in their own countries.
Since 80s we have been killing each others in the name of Islam, we didn’t even spare congregations in mosques, funerals, procession even deadbodies, our universal statement about these acts “no muslim could do that”, call it utopia or state of denial but this is our collective wisdom, we don’t need any enemy from outside. Read comments on this forum, people justifying rebels and then we blame others, seems so funny idea.
“It must be noted that most of the political and media representatives belonging to areas under Taliban influence, who are the closest to the ground realities
have a totally different point of view than the force in action for propaganda war.”
Just wondering, how did you determine what the point of view of the people in areas under Taliban influence is?
@anticorruption,
- For politicians, the article refers to elected representatives of ANP and their statements in last few days.
- For journalists, there have been several but mainly Rahimullah Yusufzai, the senior editor of The News and his interview recently on Geo in Kamran Khan show.
Hope this answers your question.
@justice4all
“this guy really surprised me with his rational talk and i am just wondering who doing these beheading and suicide bombing and all this stuff.”
So you say that this guy is rational!!!!!! I couldn’t watch it after he said “it is sunna to pray with weapon, and sala ajar is 27/28 with weapon it would 70″ any of taliban’s supporter/sisters could prove that with authentic hadith or quran, I would support them more then their sisters. Do they mix up Sikhism with Islam?????
He also said if any talib enters someone house he could be killed, what about amir muqam’s house occupation?
He also said they are looking after outside “Intezam” that’s says a lot of govt writ in the area.
I strongly protest comparing Taliban with weapons of mass destruction. WMDs truned out to be pseudo threat where as Taliban has already done lot of demage. They are responsible for over 12000 civilians and military casulties through suside bombings. They have destroyed over 200 schools alone in Malakand division. They are expansionists. They have delared they want to take over Pakistan. They do not except Pakistan’s gov, laws or state institutions. I am shocked some one in right has nerves to term them an empty threat.
Taliban are a threat for Pakistan they are not WMD’s for Pakistan.
Please save Pakistan from Indian conspiracies.Read Indian agenda here.They are connecting Pakistani media with Taliban and claiming Pakistan may break before November 2009.
http://taqaza.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=778:taliban-in-media&catid=49:politics&Itemid=88
Here is an article from Wasat-ullah Khan at BBC. It would serve as a very good response to the paranoid statements at the top of the page.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/columns/2009/04/090426_baat_say_baat.shtml
I am sure whoever wrote this is a sincere Pakistani, good Muslim and an optimist. Not necessarily someone who see things with merciless clarity:)
Please wake up. Propaganda artists will do whatever they want. The current climate of fear in Pakistan is NOT focused on inviting US in Pakistan. It is focused on forcing the DHA army to fight. It is for the people of Pakistan to wake up.
Forget about RAW, Mossad, CIA, aliens, UFO, Pir Pinjar and their conspiracies.
The biggest conspiracy is a destabilization caused BY the Taliban. Not the news stories about them.
@mbokhari
You always bring best jewel to us, read how talitubbies are hailing so sophisticated, well informord, and 100% correct fiqhi (see my comments above to see what I meant) interview by their brother, may be it’s just sisterhood thing that you have to applause every fart of your brothers.
“But it seems that the war has just started with a WMD Propaganda about Taliban taking over Pakistan.”
I think only Obama, Biden, Hillary, Holbrooke, Mullen, and Baboos Tola say that.. but only Baboo Tola believes it is no propaganda….
(I am asking for it, ain’t I?
)
Don’t waste your energy @mbokhari. Some people just don’t get it. They have Quful on their hearts and mind. They let go of their ability to ‘think’ years ago.
@savage
I am too sad to mock those who see the good side of Taliban. I want to believe the Taliban Sisters who say that peace has a chance. I am afraid they will be disappointed. But, I am too sad. The killings have started again in Dir.
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend’s were.
Each man’s death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
- John Dunne
@savage
“So you say that this guy is rational!!!!!! I couldn’t watch it after he said “it is sunna to pray with weapon,”
I dont know if carrying arms has anything to do with islam or not but its part of the culture there,the only thing taliban commander is doing is giving it a religious sanctity or excuse.
“He also said they are looking after outside “Intezam” that’s says a lot of govt writ in the area.”
Do we have it elsewhere?.I wish govt could establish its writ from KARACHI to PESHAWAR.
@nota
Everything is propagand but who is providing the substance.
Media only tells what Sufi & group says.
Media did not prompt Taliban to enter Buner as well and capture the mazar there.
Theres no comparion of WMD and Talibani actions
WMD were alleged secret goodies hidden somewhere
Taliban are not hidden and their actions speak for themselves
Though I agree with you
Media is guilty of reporting what they see
Its not like what state deptt tells them.
@justice4all
>>“So you say that this guy is rational!!!!!! I couldn’t watch it after he said “it is sunna to pray with weapon,”
>I dont know if carrying arms has anything to do with islam or not but its part of the culture there,the only thing taliban commander is doing is giving it a religious sanctity or excuse.
So now we are talking, so it has nothing to do with Islam neither they understand Islam, they should not be touted as Mujahideen, they are rebels and should be treated like those.
>>“He also said they are looking after outside “Intezam” that’s says a lot of govt writ in the area.”
>Do we have it elsewhere?.I wish govt could establish its writ from KARACHI to PESHAWAR.
If something bad is happening elsewhere it should be an excuse at all, also tell me any place from Karachi to Peshawar where army is forbidden to go, police stations are virtually abandoned and courts are occupied.
@justice4all
The govt has no interest in establishing its writ. They are only interested in transferring every penny of aid money to their private accounts. Hence their lack to interest in dealing with a problem that poses an existential threat to the country.
@mbokhari
Use of force alone is not going to solve the problem,specially when Pak Army will do it under pressure from its US masters.I am worried for my Pashtoon brothers and sisters who are going to suffer for being casualty of BIG GAMES .Who are going to be refugees in their own country,when they are looked upon with suspicion everywhere.They are oppressed by the liberal fascist of MQM in karachi for being PASHTOONS.
So please think of the people of that going to be war zone.Are we prepared to help out them?
taliban are patriotic Pakistanis. I agree with Imran Khans stance about Taliban. our real enemy is America that is trying to take control of our nuclear weapons.
Inshallah they will fail. all Roshan Khayals are all dajjals children. we will not let them decide out fate.
Taliban are quite reasonable and good people
There is a teeny little difference between the two.
The WMD ‘threat’ was a lie.
Hmmm… “Taliban Sisters” … this could totally be an emo band.
@mbo
“But, I am too sad. The killings have started again in Dir.”
Why be sad? Is this not what you and your buddies have been calling for? “Nuke ‘em”, “Kill ‘em”, “Burn these bastards”, “slit their throats”? You should be elated as more people are being rendered into refugees. And since when did you folk start considering “them” as human beings?
Tell me honestly: Is this action being taken by the Army to “fix things” or because pressure from ‘above’?
^^^
Oops! sorry about tose pesky links….I can’t help myself…
@jazoo
“Media is guilty of reporting what they see”
My main beef with media has been NOT seeing most of what is going on, thus NOT reporting it….
@Javaid Khan
> taliban are patriotic Pakistanis. I agree with Imran Khans stance about Taliban.
“Sufi Muhammad moiday nahee Quran ki khilaf warzi kar rahe hain, jo a’een ko nahee manay ga us ka saath nahee dein ge”, says Imran Khan.
http://jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/27-04-2009/topst/main5.gif
@nota
wait 4 operation in swat too, nifaz-e-adl was a good game lol
@notamistri
Never you mind about “my buddies” and “you folks” and “sadness”. @mbokhari sticks his neck out for no one and no one speaks for him but the great man himself.
But here is the inimitable, the peerless, the Lasani, the Tina Sani @notamistri with one of his predictions about sadness and death from almost exactly a year ago:
http://pkpolitics.com/2008/04/22/visitors-news-views-week-4-april-2008/#comment-75212
Since the Great Warrior @nota does not feel sad, he must be pleased by the smell of rotting human flesh in Khuni Chowk in Swat.
Or is it too early? Ah… I see…That should be Apr 25, 2010.
Dir operation on request of NWFP govt: Baboo Rehman Malik
‘Do more’ is not the answer: Zardari…So I’ll do more???
For his excellent job performance, Baboo RM gets a promotion
Sufi has acted against Quran, says Imran
@nota
I wonder how could you forgot to post this story.
Taliban seize telephone exchange in Bahrain
@mbo
Well, I am here. My kids are here. I came back to my country believing that. I will deal with what ever comes right here. I die, I die. At least I die in my own country. I am not a pansy @ss who sits thousands of miles away “emotionally detached” whimpering “Mama! The end is nigh….”
@savage
“I wonder how could you forgot to post this story”
I thought it was @Amir Hameed’s job. He lives for them so did not want to take his pleasure away from him
@nota
Sorry for being personal but I feel you and mbokhari not only know each other very well but shared your past too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/columns/2009/04/090426_baat_say_baat.shtml
دیکھئے جو کچھ بھی ہورہا ہے اس میں طالبان کا کوئی قصور نہیں ہے۔ انہوں نے ہمیشہ کھلے عام اور الفاظ چبائے بغیر کہا ہے کہ ہم مزاروں اور ان پر حاضری کو بدعت اور شرک سمجھتے ہیں۔ اس لئے انہوں نے گزشتہ دنوں بونیر میں پیر بابا کے مزار کو تالا لگانے سمیت پشاور میں رحمان بابا اور اورکزئی ایجنسی میں حضرت علی حسین کے مزار سمیت کئی درگاہیں تباہ کردیں۔ وفاقی اور سرحد کی صوبائی حکومت یہی کہتی رہ گئی کہ نہیں نہیں طالبان ایسے نہیں ہیں۔ اب امن سمجھوتہ ہوچکا ہے وہ رفتہ رفتہ ایسی حرکتوں سے باز آ جائیں گے۔
طالبان نے یہ راز بھی کبھی نہیں چھپایا کہ امن معاہدہ ہو یا نہ ہو، ہتھیار کبھی بھی حکومت کے حوالے نہیں کئے جائیں گے۔ مگر حکومت بضد ہے کہ نہیں نہیں ایسی کوئی بات نہیں۔ مولانا صوفی محمد اور حکومت کے درمیان معاہدے کی پاسداری کرتے ہوئے طالبان کچھ عرصے میں ہتھیار حوالے کردیں گے۔
طالبان نے اس بارے میں بھی کبھی لگی لپٹی نہیں رکھی کہ وہ مغربی جمہوری تصورات کو اسلام کی عین ضد سمجھتے ہوئے انتخابی عمل و پارلیمان جیسی مکروہات کو تسلیم نہیں کرتے۔ انکا ببانگِ دہل موقف یہ ہے کہ انکے تصورِ شریعت کے تحت اینگلو سیکسن قوانین و روایات کے تحت قائم ہونے والی عدالتیں بھلے انہیں ہائی کورٹ کہا جائے یا سپریم کورٹ یہ جائز عدالتیں نہیں ہیں۔ لیکن حکومت اور اسکے ابلاغئیے مسلسل یہ کہہ کر سترپوشی کررہے ہیں کہ اس طرح کی باتیں طالبان دراصل اپنی سودے بازی کے وزن کو بڑھانے کے لیے کررہے ہیں۔ دراصل طالبان جو کہہ رہے ہیں اس کا وہ مطلب نہیں جو آپ لوگ نکال رہے ہیں۔ اور یہ کہ جس طرح اچھے برے ہر جگہ ہوتے ہیں اسی طرح طالبان میں بھی اگر انتہا پسند ہیں تو ساتھ ہی ساتھ اعتدال پسند بھی موجود ہیں۔ اس لئے فکر کی کوئی بات نہیں۔
صوفی محمد
حکومت کا خیال ہے کہ اس کے مولانا صوفی محمد کے ساتھ ہونے والے معاہدے کی پاسداری کرتے ہوئے طالبان کچھ عرصے میں ہتھیار ڈال دیں گے۔
طالبان نے اس بات کو بھی کبھی اپنے سینے میں نہیں رکھا کہ انکی منزل صرف سوات نہیں بلکہ پورا صوبہ سرحد، اسکے بعد پاکستان اور پھر باقی دنیا ہے۔ جسے وہ اسلام سمجھتے ہیں جب تک اسکا پھریرا پورے عالم پر نہیں لہرائےگا جہاد جاری رہے گا۔ مگر حکومت اور اسکے حاشیہ بردار طالبان کے شعبہ تعلقاتِ عامہ کا لاشعوری کردار ادا کرتے ہوئے خود کو اور دوسروں کو یہ تسلیاں دیتے ہیں کہ یہ سب ممکن نہیں۔ طالبان سوات تک ہی محدود رہیں گے۔ وہ اپنے وعدے کے پکے ہیں۔اس لئے خوامخواہ کی قیاس آرائیاں پھیلا کرکے مفاہمانہ فضا کو نقصان نہ پہنچایا جائے۔
اور اب جبکہ طالبان اپنے اعلانیہ موقف کو عملی جامہ پہنانے کی ہرممکن کوشش کررہے ہیں تو حکومت کو حیرت کا جھٹکا ایسے لگ رہا ہے جیسے اسے طالبان کے منشور اور حکمتِ عملی کی پہلی بار بھنک لگی ہو۔ حکومت کی طرف سے بادلِ نخواستہ یہ کہا جارہا ہے کہ اگر طالبان ہٹ دھرمی سے باز نہ آئے تو پھر انہیں روکنے کے لئے ہرممکن طریقہ اختیار کیا جائے گا۔گویا یہ دھمکی جیسے طالبان کے لئے کوئی نئی اور عجوبہ شے ہو۔
ایسی معصوم حکومت اور اسکی حکمتِ عملی کے بارے میں کیا کہا جائے جسے اس بات کا پکا یقین ہو کہ ہو نہ ہو اس بار آم کے درخت پر سیب ضرور لگیں گے۔ انشااللہ!
@GoTK
lol….gotta see it all again. Yes the Sisters are brave but loud and rude
I wonder who is the Umme Hassan at pkpolitics
@savage
The way I saw the interview was:
We are the Taliborg. Lower your rifles and surrender your homes. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will be mutated to service us.
Resistance is futile.
Al Hukm ul Mulla. Al Ardh lil Mulla.
@mbokhari
Taliborg LOL, You could develop your own language and I believe it would be more intuitive than any existing one.
@notamistri
Jeez. Didn’t ask your life story man. You know what, send me your resume and I will ask Mullah Sufi to fix you with a rifle
Feel sad for the country. Not for yourself.
Didn’t you just ask me why I was not sad? Duh!
“@GoTk…”
Ah, so already looking for back up? Saveage not enough for you, Skirty?
@mbo
BTW: Ever coming to Pakistan or will you wait for Kalia to make the move first?
@
Bokhari
Sir what are you trying to prove with these doctored pictures of islamic mujahedin?
Trust me it doesnt change our views.
I support Imran Khan and i condemn america’s war.
we should mind our own interest.
Death to America and israel and their Tattoos in Pakistan.
@notamistri
Whatever buddy.
Why are you so obsessed with me and my location?
I may or may not be in Pakistan. I will come to Pakistan (I may very well be there right now) soon as you pick up a gun to fight the Jihad in Swat. I believe it has been declared fard.
Don’t waste your time on the internet. Let your kids use the computer every now and then. They will thank you for it someday
@ anticorruption
““It must be noted that most of the political and media representatives belonging to areas under Taliban influence, who are the closest to the ground realities
have a totally different point of view than the force in action for propaganda war.”
Just wondering, how did you determine what the point of view of the people in areas under Taliban influence is?”
i think @dmin’s reply to you was sufficient, but here ill just add a small addition:
Pakistani city welcomes the Sharia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3lF7ScyWnY
@Skirty
” may very well be there right now”
Ha! Ha!! Ha!!! Why do baboos always resort to lies? You are not here. You are too chicken to be here. So please stop pretending….
whatever.
MB and Savage, Good job keeping the sanity alive in this place.
Nota:
Since when it’s a crime “leaving your country” and moving to another?! You forgot, India was divided and millions of people moved, should they all move back to India now?
It seems alot of folks here are blinded by their nationalism and patriotism; that pakistan is the best place on earth. Well news flash for you, Pakistan was never yours to begin with, it always belonged to the 2% (Feudal Lords) and the army. It’s the Feudal Lords who jumped the band wagon to save their estates and later became your masters with the help of Pakistan Army.
A country where a police wala can come insult you and your family without worrying about any consequences. A country where a Pak Fauj average Sipahi can slap a a municipal counselor in public, in his own constituency, in front of 100s of people………is NOT my country! It never was and it never will!
(I witnessed both examples I gave above).
Having said that, if your patriotism is still raging, then Talibans would be the last group of people you should be supporting….for the sake of Pakistan.
i see many ppl taking the taliban threat lightley. i would like to see all you fat and rich ppl with ugly looking beards with henna colors on them and your wives in burqa looking out at the world thru the holes in the cloth, your daughters uneducated and your sons fanatic idiots. ofcourse they ate wmd and worse than that. eliminate them they are scum.
@ResidentEvil
News flash for you: I am a “Feudal Lord” with cousins in the army, police and who are parliamentarians from (almost) every political party. So if that is your standard, Pakistan certainly is mine. (It’s another matter altogether they all hate my guts for speaking against the army, police, politicians, and feudal system)
What I find interesting is that the two examples you gave have nothing to do with the Taliban. Go figure.
“is NOT my country! It never was and it never will!”
And this is the problem with all you baboos. You never OWN it. You hate it. You are disgusted with it. You stay away from it. And yet you want us to believe you are its greatest well-wishers who know what is good for it.
I simply say: Ferk you!
“Talibans would be the last group of people you should be supporting”
Another News Flash: Just because I am known as a “Taliban Lover” by the baboo tola, it certainly doesn’t follow I am supporting the Taliban — at least not everything they do. Sure, some of their actions I support whole-heartedly.
@nota
“May be there” exactly means may or may not be there, so wheres lying.
Why you think point scoring should be the aim of writing a post.
I may have my differences with mb but read his posts
Does he looks like lying type.
I think he is a gentleman he disregrads your accusations with “Whatever”
I noticed with quantity posters lose their quality.
@Tabban khamosh, mbokhari and larki
the filthy, secular western wannabees are back
We should start a fund for the the people who have already been displaced and will continue to be displaced as a result of this conflict.
@Nota
“And this is the problem with all you baboos. You never OWN it. You hate it. You are disgusted with it. You stay away from it. And yet you want us to believe you are its greatest well-wishers who know what is good for it.
I simply say: Ferk you!”
“Well wishers” of Pakistan they (baboons) are, but only when the dance is according to their (westernized) tunes
“Talibans would be the last group of people you should be supporting”
Another News Flash: Just because I am known as a “Taliban Lover” by the baboo tola, it certainly doesn’t follow I am supporting the Taliban — at least not everything they do. Sure, some of their actions I support whole-heartedly.”
Forget about that they will at least try to understand they complex situation. They have decided they WILL NOT understand! In ke dilloN par tale laghe hue haiN
Nota,
You definitely sound like “Zia ki baaqiyaat” ….
And I can only imagine what you are capable of when you say you support some of Taliban’s actions “whole-heartedly” …. wow!
Please elaborate on ONE good Taliban action?
At least @nota “admits” that he is a “Taliban lover”, but where did this “Zia ki baaqiyaat” come from. Are the baboons catching straws?
Then maybe baboons are “fairangi ki baaqiayaat” .
@nota
Nota,
may i please have an email address (albeit anonymous) to contact you on?
or could you please email me on gvlobbygroup@gmail.com?
thanks!
Kill them bomb them & kick their a$$ets.
I repeat. I insist.
Army, Taliban and their offer to “protect” the administration in Buner:)
Whenever I heard any American or very specific Mike Molen, Pateross & Hollbroakes’ statements that ISI has been playing the Dangerous Game of DOUBLE CROSSING because Pak Army pretends as if these Pak Armed Personnel’s are just like dogs & already fighting for the US or the war of the West.
Their US masters have blown the whistle and the Elite of PPP & some very selected Army dogs have came running, with their tongues hanging out, ready to lick their/US forces Shoes. Obama & CIA’s are must be especially tasty, as Musharaf & Co., loved it now Zardari Camp, above all the rest of the Ruling Elite and army ’ve also been loving it. But in actual terms just according to Western Electronic & Print Medias these ISI personnel have been helping/assisting out to Taliban and weekly basis Pakistan Based US Oil Terminals & Truck Stands are BLOWN UP at Pakistan & they turned into ASHES thus the Boarding & Lodging system of AMERICAN FORCES has been collapsed in totality. In short in reality the established undeniable fact of the matter is ISI & Taliban are Extra Ordinary Smart Self Made & Well Organized on the other hand Americans & Allied Forces is remained Hero only in factitious Holly-Wood Movies or in Cock & Bull Stories Creator those are CNN, Fox News or either at CNBC.
wats the debate here? Are Talibaan wmd? I dun understand, its true pathan loves chaney ki daal and it does turns a human being in walking wmd but i dun think thats what article meant. As usual baboons out in full force and just ranting thier usual crap. God this is getting tiring.
RM was reported to have called Talibaan Azab, so does this means talibaan right we all sinner and ALLAH sending azab in way of talibaan? by that logic we should all repent implemeent sharia and live like good muslims warna azab to ataa he rahey ga:p
“Please discuss how we could verify the threat as real threat and counter any exaggerated propaganda to counter the first step of invasion”
How about starting with your self and not providing so much space to consecutive “articles” which try to create unwarranted hysteria about the so-called “Talibanization” of Pakistan.
It started off with Kaali Maata and now the NGO’s and baboo(n)s have picked up the same tune of “Talibanization”. The soundbites coming from Taafo Ghunda, NGO’s and baboo(n) tola give us a signal of what their masters and handlers are planning.
p.s. not related but ill post anyway: pml(n) has been thrown a BOTI by the Americans and they are jumping through all kinds of hoops to impress them these days, from Nawazoo takla suddenly becoming a “maddah” of Obama (the same guy who orders drone strikes on innocent Pakistani civilians)- not to mention him repeating ad infinitum that Bill Clinton is “my friend”- to the Taliban suddenly becoming a great threat to Pakistan, from him paying “haazri” to visiting american minions to now wanting to extend “full support” to Zardari govt(only about a month ago he was calling for a “revolution”, the same “farsooda nizam” that he wanted to overthrow a few weeks ago is now “under threat from Taliban” and “must be protected”). what a hypocrite this takla ganja turned out to be. let him stand with the americans and he will land up exactly where q league and ppp ended up. imran khan seems the only alternative in our system that can bring change now.
The West WILL try their utmost to build a case against Pakistan. Key factors:
- Taliban will off course be a factor. Headlines like the “monsters” are 55 miles crow flight away from Islamabad etc. will be on all western newspapers and the bootl!ckers in Pakistan. Be sure to find people like Najam Sethi right on spot.
- The suicide bombings.
- Flogging videos (NGO productions led by people like the ugly queen of NGO Farzana Bari-Bari and MS. Minallah).
- Baboons with their “frightening” stories and videos including very well learned marasi “scholars” who cannot make a case without their marasi comments! They will off course always stay away from a balanced view, which is that both sides commit atrocities. The difference is though that their masters have travelled thousands of miles to accomplish their goals and they will leave sooner rather than later and we will be left to handle all the dirt left behind just like after the Afghan-Soviet war. We can change our friends, but NOT our neighbours and that is why we need to find clever ways to get out of this mess. First of all we need in Pakistan and then we need to develop the neglected areas and slowly introduce a better system. We MUST give the peace a chance. Carrot and stick is the way forward, but first the opposition have a sense of security and a belief that the government of Pakistan and the army can be trusted! Off course the Taliban etc. need to reciprocate.
- We also have the “top of the baboon cream” i.e. those who could sell the mother to be accepted by the fairangis. These people will willingly let their own children stand at speakers stand in the UNO to prove the case against Pakistan. Do you people remember the Iraqi girl who told about all the “atrocities” committed by Saddams army in Kuwait. How she cried about the “inhumane” actions. Later the world found out that it was all fake, but the damage had already been done and nobody bothered to take those responsible to task.
I distinguish between the ordinary useful id!ots/baboons and the “top of the cream baboons”. The latter are people like @larki, Gul, Kashif, ClarionCall, Democrate etc. One could hope that these people stopped “bothering” about Pakistan!
What? in moderation again? Maybe I was a little too tough on the “top of the Baboons cream”. Maybe @dm!n can ensure a quick release.
@ Shirkuh
it seems admin has been infected with babooitis as well. he has put me permanently on moderation and doesnt print some of my posts here.
“imran khan seems the only alternative in our system that can bring change now.”
what was i thinking? now that i read my comment, i sound like a fanclub member. let me rephrase it. imran khan is the only one among our politicians(besides ANP recently) who knows something about pakhtunkhwa, and who hasnt been bitten by the “american bug” as yet. he should cash in on the vacuum that takloo nawaz leaves after siding with the Americans.
@nota
They called you Zia ki Baqiat?
Who is NS? Who is SS?
Who is the creation of ISI?
Who ‘were’ Taliban supporters a few days back and became turncoats?
My my…These rotten chicken nuggets need to be reminded of the history of our Grand politicians.
@dmin will soon delete my post….Who cares?
My heart sank, I could not respond out of depression. I force myself now. Silence is crime.
The water is above our heads and we do not know we are drowning, we believe it is CIA water boarding.
The rest my friends TK, mbokhari, ataraxis6 etc. have said already. What can I possibly add except that if still we cannot recongnise the enemy within, we are surely doomed.
Do you remember when we all came together to defeat the enemy within and restored the CJ? The enemy without retreated….in fact tried to take credit for the change.
We have a similar parallel here. We can never fence off others’ domination plans if our own country is eaten away from the inside. We stand a much better chance recognising and fixing the internal problems first.
wats the problem with zia ki baqiyaat lol. MQM is zia ki baqiyaat, so is PML – N and me , moi
and I am zia shaheed ki baaqiyaat. Abb kar lo jo kuch kar saktey ho.:p
and my comment is in moderation
@raza
You need a good night sleep…lack of sleep has affected your brain…
Are you joining dumbo-crate in his menatl asylum?
so, i thought in the meantime i’ll watch youtube posted by TK….and laughed
though i’m curious what(s) triggered the moderation
@nota,
“…I thought it was @Amir Hameed’s job. He lives for them so did not want to take his pleasure away from him..”
And I wonder how I will ever repay you for such a gracious gesture.
Discuss: Are Talibans Pakistani WMDs?: No, they are no WMDs. This is a cancer that is trying to spread into the rest of the country and needs to be treated locally.
Off course talibans are no WMDS, but they do pose a threat to Pakistan, but not as much as these zionist funded Ngo’s and baboos do.
@Traffic
I think some users on Pkpolitics are more acceptable than others.
@urazzaq12
I love you dear.
“Please discuss how we could verify the threat as real threat and counter any exaggerated propaganda to counter the first step of invasion”
How about starting with your self and not providing so much space to consecutive “articles” which try to create unwarranted hysteria about the so-called “Talibanization” of Pakistan.
It started off with Kaali Maata and now the NGO’s and baboo(n)s have picked up the same tune of “Talibanization”. The soundbites coming from Taafo Ghunda, NGO’s and baboo(n) tola give us a signal of what their masters and handlers are planning.
p.s. not related but ill post anyway: pml(n) has been thrown a BOTI by the Americans and they are jumping through all kinds of hoops to impress them these days, from Nawazoo takla suddenly becoming a “maddah” of Obama (the same guy who orders drone strikes on innocent Pakistani civilians)- not to mention him repeating ad infinitum that Bill Clinton is “my friend”- to the Taliban suddenly becoming a great threat to Pakistan, from him paying “haazri” to visiting american minions to now wanting to extend “full support” to Zardari govt(only about a month ago he was calling for a “revolution”, the same “farsooda nizam” that he wanted to overthrow a few weeks ago is now “under threat from Taliban” and “must be protected”). what a hypocrite this takla ganja turned out to be. let him stand with the americans and he will land up exactly where q league and ppp ended up.
@mbokhari & TK,
I did not know that you guys joined MQM, as your statements are completely in sync with Kali Mata and Americans, who you believe are NOT exaggerating the threat
BTW, the threats we are getting of Taliban takeover on Islamabad via Margala Hills are same as the threats of Peshawar taken over by Taliban last year.
What happened to Taliban Peshawar Takeover that media was reporting on daily basis last year? Army did not go to protect Peshawar and yet Taliban did not takeover?
@ pak.nukes
“Who is NS? Who is SS?
Who is the creation of ISI?
Who ‘were’ Taliban supporters a few days back and became turncoats?
…
@dmin will soon delete my post….Who cares?”
dont say that, admin will put you permanently on moderation. he took ages in deciding whether he should allow my comment against pml(n).
@ Shirkuh
“I think some users on Pkpolitics are more acceptable than others.”
i dont think thats true. asal main admin ko kuch babuoon nay dara diya hai kay his site has become “right-wing platform”, and since america is going to start closing down sites which promote “extremism”, thus admin has taken precautionary measures. he better lift this selective and discriminative moderation policy soon though, people will get discouraged from posting comments.
@Amir Hameed
A lot of people here use and have used the word CANCER to describe the Taliban and have offered various radical surgical methods of treatment.
First It appears that you are not a surgeon.
Second- please be advised that CANCER is not one disease but many thousands of different diseases of different tissues. Now would you kindly tell us which CANCER do YOU mean when yo use the word ?
Third- the surgical treatment of CANCER depends on the type of cancer and how far it has spread and what tissue or organ it came from .
I have tried to keep it simple so you would not have difficulty in understanding . And to add to the matter let me say this-
” If you would like rationally-( a reach !) think of the Taliban movement as a CANCER – then you could only compare it to something like acute Lymphatic Leukemia for which there is NO SURGICAL treatment – only CHEMOTHERAPY which most often fails !
So if it is possible- it might be better to use a different metaphor to describe the Talibs in the interest of accuracy.
The western Economic, Political and Social idealogies are not compatible with Islam.
The Western idea of an Economy is ENTIRELY based on the use of Interest which is strictly banned in Islam.
The Western Political ideology promotes secularism and the soverngity of the people whereas in Islam soveregnity lies only with Allah and his laws are supreme.
Similarly the social system which includes education as well is pretty much not compatiple with Islamic values and principles. the O and A levels system n then we have to do our bacholoers and then find a good job to support our family, which means that for approximately 25 years a person cannot get married and hense will mess around wid girls n stuff cuz today u dont find many 25 year old virgins, male or female. This is just one aspect of the educational system which i just thought of the top of my head. furthurmore we are not taught the Quran or the sunnah in mainstream schools and the end result is that we hardly know what the quran says n stuff and have to rely on mullahs. The social system also includes the judicial system. the judicial system of the west is unworkable in a society like ours. poor people cannot afford lawyers or wait for years for their judgements.
these are only a few examples i could think of just now. We also have to realise that muslims lived under the Khalifa for almost 1300 years until the first world war and it is only in the past few hundered years or so, as a result of colonization, that we follow the system of the West otherwise we always had Islamic laws n systems.
For the first time in the history of mankind, EVERYONE now dresses the same way (blue jeans etc), Speaks the same language and eats the same food (mc donalds etc) ALL OVER THE WORLD. The West had destroyed the Islamic military power over time by dividing us into more than a hundred small countries all that was left was the islamic ideology which they have declared a war against after 9/11.
who was responisble for 9/11?? apparently it was osama and Al Qaeda, who btw are all arabs. All the so called hijackers on 9/11 were Arabs. TALIBAN WAS NOT INVOLVED! niether did Iraq have nything to do with 9/11. Some people argue that they attacked iraq for oil. but the fact is that the US only depends on 10% of its oil fromt he middle east.
the taliban wasnt involved in 9/11 it was Al qaeda and osama bin laden who are arabs. and these people have attacked the entire country. obviously the people of the country will fight back. and the afghans are warriors they will never back down and will fight until theyr last breathe and therefore this is a NEVER ending war and hense Pakistan will keep sinking deeper into it.
Therefore, it is my opnion that this entire so called war on terror is a war against the Islamic ideology. Pakistan is the second biggest muslim country and it has a Nuclear Weapon. And in order for the west to continue implementing their world order (which i personally call the Gog n Magog world order) Pakistan’s nuclear weapons have to go.
@Urazzaq12
Exactly, the most dangerous enemy is the enemy in your own ranks.
@shimatoree
You sound like a doc to me but pkpoliticians are incurable for if you do not support america you are malignant like the Taliban.
I suggesst you don’t waste your energies because kabootar billi ko dekh ker aankh band ker leta hai…the pigeons here are doing the same….
@pak.nukes
Have we heard this one before? …..”Either you are with us or against us”.
Just keep it black and white like the “advanced” Bushman. There are no nuances to a problem for the baboons- at least not when have “beardos” on one side.
talboos are not WMD and not threat to existance of pakistan.if even talboos are threat,pakistan is well placed to counter this threat now than before.pakistan has democratic system,independant judiciary,army chief who believe in democracy,sensible opposition and more importantly,west, america and asia is united to help pakistan.real problem is supporters of taliboos.they are in media,army and in civil society.they are not letting army to act decisively against these taliboos.but the tide is turning.consences is building against these taliboos.with in 3 years taliboos will be history.
@shimatoree,
On Cancer:
When someone has cancer, doctors remove the cancer through surgical or chemo process.
But when lots of people in same place start having the same type of cancer, then the focus and research shifts towards finding the root cause of cancer in that society and NOT primarily on individual basis.
There are multiple levels of Baboos as observed on pkpolitics:
- Level 1 Baboos claim that Taliban are cancer and should be killed immediately. They have no answer why non-stop killing of Taliban in Afghanistan made Taliban stronger and led to collapse of US economy.
- Level 2 Baboos claim that root cause should be fixed and they claim (exactly like Musharraf) that religion (or its interpretation) is the source of evil here, but they fail to tell about the suicide bombings by Vietnamese Taliban, Japenese Taliban, Srilankan Taliban, Palestanian Taliban and Iraqi Taliban where they did NOT have mullahs preaching suicide bombings.
- Level 3 Baboos think that political issue might be one of the root causes of surge of Taliban, but they will never highlight the injustice or the political issue which started the cancer. They will always blame the victims of cancer and side with Level 1 and Level 2 Baboos and they will either advocate the use of proven failed medicine for the cure, or just enjoy spreading fear of cancer while keeping a very safe (overseas) distance from the cancer.
@rasheed,listen taliboo,the whole world is against taliban.how the hell any sensible person can support taliban.
@democrate,
Sorry, forgot to add Level 0 Baboos and you perfectly fit in that category.
@rasheed taliboo,where u fit ur self,beast taliboo or animal taliboo or sadist taliboo.
@ rasheed
so what do you think is the solution to the problem ? i.e. if you believe there is a problem with the taliban or militancy in fata?
The perfect baboon?
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_02/rushdieDM_468x358.jpg
@rasheed
ROFL nailed it that dumbocrate was asking 4 it lolz
That’s right, CANCER is not one disease but thousands of different diseases of different tissues or may be of one tissue subjected to different groups as CANCER in general can be defined as any malignant growth or tumor caused by abnormal and uncontrolled cell division which has an exact analogy with the abnormal and uncontrolled growth of Taliban. We know that these are the different types of genes that are important in making a cell cancerous only usually when these genes got mutated. In our Taliban case mutation was started initially in Afghanistan, shifted to FATA and now PATA. CANCER spread rapidly because of the weak immune system of the patient(Pakistan) and patient was also harboring a deadly viruses or parasites like sipah=e=sahab, laskar-e-xyz, etc etc who are responsible for all this religious intolerance.
Of course chemotherapy is the best one can suggest in order to stop further spreading, which means isolate them all those who chalenge the writ and subject them to the militery action.
After watching the video from @nota, the americans are looking positively humane, decent and God-fearing (or Gawd-fearin as Dubya would put it) human beings.
@shimatoree
above post is for you
consences is building up against these beasts,soon public will going to chase these talboos.army dont need to waste bullets on these animals,Allah kai fazal sai awaam jooteon sai maareen gai.
Talibans are incurable cancer in our society and must be removed sooner before this cancer spreads all over the country. Shame on right wing extrmeists ( nota, rasheed) on this forum, media (Hameed Mir, Ansar Abbasi) and politicians (Imran Tanga party, Munnawar Hasan) for supporting Taliban terrorists.
Taliban Murdabad Pakistan Zindabad
@Shirkuh
@Rasheed
Hahahahahaaha
I am lovin’ it….LOLZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
@democrate
I fully agree with you. We need to mobilise general public from Pesahawar to Karachi against Taliban thugs and I still say a movement like Long march should be started to eliminate Taliban animals from the face of the earth. We also need long march for power shortage in this country. After successful long march of Nawaz Sharif, we need more long marches to solve our 60 years old problems. But the biggest threat this country faces is Talibanisation of the country so let’s first start a clean up operation of Taliban animals.
Taliban Murdabad Pakistan Zindabad
tribles area has been operating same way like they have been but MUSHARAF and Zardari trying to teach them lesson so all this is a reaction from them,whatever they are doing good,bad,ugly they are doning it anyway,they also know this is not best way to defend themself but this is the only way to defend,that’s what they believe unless Democrate guy
stop dron attacks on them??????????????then see if real peace has a chance.
@Shirkuh
Imagine someone who agrees with dumb-o-crate….?
Deserves to be sent to a museum.
Well in my humble opinion the biggest threat to Pakistan are not Talibans.. rather these baaboos are the ones who instead of being themselves are wanna be tom cruise, Julia Roberts and James bonds MTV generation…
All they can do is sit somewhere in the western country and comment on ground realities far away in Pakistan… and the funny part is the very same people who these baaboos are trying to imitate consider them “rats” from a moslem countries…
I personally know first hand how much westerns inferiorate us… regardless of how much liberal we are… Please don’t forget the history… it hasn’t been so long….. these so called civilized white people used to hang common indian person in the middle of streets…. I guess that was civilized barbarisim… because the executioner was wearing pants versus shalwar qamees…. dhoobhi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghatt ka…..
Pakistanis/Muslims: Learn to respect yourself… if you dont respect yourself then not expect others to respect you….
@ rasheed,
??
khudara don’t be extreme in views … ppl in swat regardless of their beliefs are our brothers and sisters… there is always room for settlements with your brothers… dropping bombs on them will definitely ignite the fire which will be impossible to stop… and I even say that to Indians who come to this forum… you even wont be safe from it… we all unlike America live in the same region… we need to make our decisions ourselves… without foreign interventions.
@Patriot
Your humble opinion is wrong. Simply move to Swat for a month and it will open up your eyes and brain as well forever. Spend some time with Talibans and write and send us your memoris (if you are lucky to stay alive after a week in Swat).
Taliban Murdabad Pakistan Zindabad
these talboos think they will win,they are living in fools paradise.these coward people can fight only in jungles and caves,they did,nt defend kabul,before allies army reach kabul these bloody so called brave fled in jungle.these cowards will defeat america.
@pak.nukes
I agree with every sane person and do not agree with Taliban lovers and insane people. democrate views are perfectly sane.
@democrate
they already won u dumbo killed 46 eh each one has a bro or some relative who will now pick a gun, so as per ur solution kill all the population of FATA? thats just show how humane ur lol
@democrate
Imagine this forum is full of Taliban lovers. But you and I are doing real Jihad; we are waking up a sleeping nation against Talibansiation of this society. We shall if God willing win this right Jihad against animals of Stone Age.
Taliban Murdabad Pakistan Zindabad
@ RAW/CIA/MQM/PPP or whoever is paying dumb-o-crate
Please find a better replacement, this retard is doing more harm than good to your cause
Altaf runs his terror network in Karachi while Talibs are doing it in FATA/Swat. What’s the difference b/w these two? Talibs are pro Pakistan!
@nota:
So, you finally muster up the courage to attack me directly — despite being the ad-hominem troll of the frikkin year — instead of saying cowardly sh!t like “that guy that just dropped in”
and you calling ME a skirt? lol
I got news for you b!tch, I don’t need ‘backup’ to take care of your punk ass. I try to stay away from shameless personal attacks which are your and your baboon troop’s speciality, but it seems this is in order. Because neither you, nor the loser ‘posse’ that you think you have, can come up with ANY cogent, relevant or worthwhile solution, answer or even criticism of a situation, article or newsitem.
PKPolitics has basically been reduced to this territorial fuckwittery by you and the other talibuffoons, who seem to think that discourse is somehow a contact sport or a WWE tag-team wrestling match. No brains or common sense necessary! Just keep frothing at the mouth about the “injustice of the baboo’s” and keep taking each other seriously while the rest of the forum looks at you pathetic LOSERs in awe! and just shakes their heads in disbelief.
Everytime we turn around, it’s nota, tilting at his baboo windmills, with his google search link spam and his emo ass shit about how the “baboos” are opposing whatever the fvck it is that those dumbass link spams point to.
Basically regurgitate chewed up vomit that the retardo JI chief Munawar Hasan or Qazi vomited up that particular day.
day in and fvcking tedious day out… same old predictable, onerous, goddamned boring sh!t with the talibuffoons cheering you on!
This is a sample of your talibaboon “discourse” on pkpolitics these days:
Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Ad. Infinitum. & Ad Nauseam.
So, like @mbokhari and other well meaning compatriots have suggested (for old times sake), get off the computer, let your kid get online or better yet, spend some time with your family instead of picking lice with the rest of the talibaboon troop and needlessly trolling online forums for most of your waking life.
This is dedicated to you, our favorite pkp troll, YOU MADE NO DIFFERENCE! And you wasted everyone’s time.
Take a bow A$$HOLE!
@AClarionCall,we are not alone ,the whole world is with us.people cannt amagine how much these taliboos has damged pakistan,islamic world,and the world.the world is spending trlions of dollor to curb extremism and that sort of money can go to research and to poor countries.these bloody rascles defamed islam to the extent,in westren countries young muslim children started to hide thier religion.before lot of people convert to islam but now only prisioners convert to islam like mike tyson.these bloody taliboos pushed pakistan 40 years back and still some stupid people want government not to take any action against these beasts.these stupid people wants government to give free hand to these taliboos to bomb people and then to bomb funeral of their victims,dig graves of their victims,hang corpses of their victims,bomb shrines.shame on you taliboos,u r worst than animals,worst than traitors and worst than zionists and hindus.
@shimatoree,
I believe @Dildar has provided a good explanation to your queries above on Cancer.
But, let me answer the following:
“If you would like rationally-( a reach !) think of the Taliban movement as a CANCER – then you could only compare it to something like acute Lymphatic Leukemia for which there is NO SURGICAL treatment – only CHEMOTHERAPY which most often fails !”
I believe you meant “Acute lymphoblastic leukemia” and not “acute Lymphatic Leukemia” (let me know if you didn’t), which is a simple term for bone marrow cancer. So, you are implying that the entire body, Pakistan, is impacted? If this is what you meant then all you need is a careful study of daily newspapers. Hope you will do that.
@Ghost Of TK
i see u off ur medication again lol
@democrate
Bring it on
@ACC
chikidar nikley na shabash jaagtey rahooo lolz
You also may have read the coloumn of ANSAR ABBASI on 27th april 09, if not
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/27-04-2009/col4.htm,
in this coloumn, he told us that all valtures, crocodiles are after him, even some biggest names, so we have to support him. He and AHMAD NOORANI expossed khanzir nazir naji, now he is hitting them hard. YOU know these rotten eggs peoples like nazir naji, imtiaz alam etc are toghter , so we have to support him.
ON ur website about 500 peoples gave their comments and above 90% against naji, now if you high light this issue then 500 peoples if write emais to janggroup and famouse colominists to raise support for ANSAR ABBASI.
If we dont support him now, we will be guilty NOT supporting honest ANSAR ABBASI AND HONEST PEOPLES.
@rasheed:
I’m not sure how this indicates we have ‘joined MQM’… did Nawaz Sharif Join MQM too? or did the principle of “Jamia Naimia Lahore” join MQM too? I really don’t understand this line of reasoning.
I don’t know about @mbokhari (I don’t think your assessment is correct btw) but If you read my response I tried to indicate that there is a difference.
WMD was a blatant lie.
Taliban “situation” has been created/nurtured whatever imo .
But the fact is that it exists. And I happen to belong to the group, right now, who happens to think that this is not good for the Federation of Pakistan.
Yes there is injustice. Yes there is all kinds of heinous sh!t that is going on that needs to change. But the model that the so called talibs (most of them are not even madrassah students) are offering is WRONG WRONG WRONG for Pakistan.
That doesn’t mean I support what is happening in Pakistan. I support radical reforms in Pakistan and at the same time addressing the real causes that have let this thing get out of hand.
You have a point about the chance of threat being blown out of proportion but can we really take that chance? I have no love lost for the fvcktard ‘kleptablishment’ but if we lose the state, then all bets are off.
My take is to somehow avert this threat and at the same time make changes on the ground.
We are not even having serious discussions on it anymore because every fvcking discussion is turned into some ‘baboo bashing’ fest by the beardo’s.
The end result is that they distract from constructive dialogue and that is just as well for them. They can live with the confusion because that is what they want to do. they want to keep the nation confused until Islamabad falls.
It may not fall this year, but if this keeps happening, and the nation is kept of two minds about this issue, it eventually will, and the beardo’s think they’ll get the prize.
As if they got the soviet prize
or the Sikh prize
or the Ottomon prize.
In any case, some people are now looking at it religiously as well. Who gives minority deobandi fanatics the right to implement “their” sharia? This is not just ‘baboo fantasy’ by Abbas Ather, but the fact is that that’s what they did in swat and this was the first order of businessin mainly barelvi Buner.
So, is this talib support taking us to religious civil war or some kind of citadel of Islam that most of the talibuffoons seem to think it is?
Who’s being made the fool here?
Who was used in Sikh Wars? wahabi/deobandi’s
Loss to Muslims: Crown of Delhi, Kashmir, Afghanistan
Who was used in breaking up the Ottomon Empire? wahabi/deobandi’s
Loss to Muslims: All of fucking Ottomon Empire, but the real prize was Palestine.
Who was used in Afghan Wars? wahabi/deobandi’s
Loss to Muslims: Iraq, Afghanistan after soviets were ‘defeated’ by your mujahids.
Who is being used in the talib wars to subdue Pakistan? wahabi/deobandi’s
Loss to Muslims: take a wild guess
So, look at the pattern, and tell me, do you really think, supporting the talitubbies will get us anywhere strategically? My answer is NO.
So what to do?
Stop the bleeding: IE Fix the fvcking justice system, wealth distribution system, governance.
Stop the talibs: Not by capitulating to every whim of these fake ass mujahids, but by special ops against only the talibs and not bombarding the fvck out of whole towns as has been the rule with our army.
Rebuild the nation (not country): spend the money in the areas where this fire is spreading because there is so much dry (undeucated, disenfranchised, disgruntled) tinder out there.
So, the answer is really not as simple as Baboo this and beardo that, but unfortunately every single frikking thread these days is getting bogged down in the highschool clicque sh!t and therefore we’re not getting anywhere I’m afraid.
P.S. Do I support the swat nizam-e-Adl sure. If the people of swat want something, bloody give it to them, and same goes for lahore and multan and ghotki and noshki. It is atrocious that our kleptocracy only listens when people are out there shooting at them (and even then very little).
Do I support some cockamaimie interpretation of Islam by some beardo’s just cuz they have beards and they also have guns and this somehow reminds me of how Salaahuddin totally kicked infidel ass ???
NO. NO. NO.
The purpose of this article-( I assume)- was to force a discussion about the possibility of the issue of the Taliban being used by the WEST as a pretext to aatck Pakistan just like the issue of WMD was used by the WEST to attack IRAQ.
It is amusing to see everyone forget the TOPIC and simply start indulging their normal set pattern game of throwing diatribes against one another.
Those that are dead set against the Taliban are saying that the Taliban are not WMD. The issue is not if the Taliban are WMD- the issue is if the WEST is going to use this as a pretext to attack Pakistan. I am amazed that some people know that the WEST will not use this pretext-( how they know they do not tell)- while others say that unlike the non-existant WMDs the Taliban are already here and thus saying that the WEST already has a live genuine pretext !
@amir hamid-
Your point about lymphoblastic and simply lymphatic leukemia is not quite right as they one and the same disease. And they can arise not from the bone marrow only but anywhere there is lymphatic tissue in the body and it is spread all over in lymph nodes, spleen liver etc.
In ref: to the issue of comparing the Taliban issue in Pakistan with this disease- I feel that the metaphor is accurate if you look at the rural population in different areas of Pakistan.
I can only comment on NWFP since that is my home. And this movement is wiedspread throughout the Pukhtoon population. The reasons are many but the one common denominator is the West’s aggression in Afghanistan.
As regrads the Newspapers in Pakistan , I am sorry but I did not understand as to what your implication was- but since it is well known that the non-Pushtoons have great difficulty in knowing and understanding how they function, think and feel- I have found it not of much use to look at what Dawn or Jang or Nation or whoever from the East side of the Indus has to say about my people. Oh do not take me wrong I do read all of those and other newspapers .
I would also like to suggest if your are serious that you should come the NWFP and travel in the areas where the Talibs are supposed to be and find out for yourself as to what makes them tick.
For the increasingly ignorant, Pakistan’s strategy should be:
Ignore the propoganda,
counter the very real threat (the taliban),
when things are really rosy and beautiful in pakistan – there will be less propoganda – at that point whatever little propoganda there is, will actually seem like a lie.
right now, things are ugly and you can easily exaggerate the ugly to make it look uglier.
@ ghost of TK
Quot
” We are not even having serious discussions on it anymore because every fvcking discussion is turned into some ‘baboo bashing’ fest by the beardo’s. ”
You are correct if you also would add
” every discussion is also turned into some ‘beardo bashing’ fest by the baboo’s. ”
“
Hope is always bright, if sun keep rising on time
Answer required for the following questions?
what is missing?
where we have left dots?
what are wrong turns?
what were the blind spots?
where things got spoiled?
Which factor lead mistrust?
who is responsbile?
what is diff b/w a paki and american?
are americans in parliment?
are americans in national assembley?
are americans in provincial assemblies?
Who teach children in pakistan?
who take leads on stories in media?
are americans/jews in our army/airforce/navy?
good balanced article on the Talibs…
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=174454
unlike the stupid inane diatribe (did i mention childish) that you guys are engaging in.. (that goes specifically for nota, tk and mb)
@rasheed
ChoR yar…did not expect you to bring this طعنہ:D
I don’t really care what Tafoo Mirasi or the Americans are saying. I like to do my own thinking and my assessment is based on an analysis of history and larger political causes. I despise people who threaten Pakistan. At one time Kali Mata was threat no. 1, these days, in my eyes, it is the Taliban.
Basically you see, I don’t try to follow anyone and instead form my own opinion on given evidence.
By the way, Tafoo Mirasi has this khujli because he is planning to break Karachi away from Pakistan. He is not particularly opposed to murder. Heck, he orders a couple everyday before breakfast. Just like Mulla Fazlullah.
Hope it is like that. I would be happy the day our Army does not need permission from Mullahs to go to Swat.
Tell me, what is the difference between Tafoo Mirasi and Mulla Fazlulllah? Both are criminals. Both have armed thugs who use terror. Both are outside Pakistani jurisdiction. The Army can’t fight both. Yet, you oppose one and are so-so about the other? I see them as two sides of the same coin.
You have a point. I hope it happens the same way for Swat.
Anyway, like @GoTK said, there is no point in being part of pretty little teams. And I am in no team. I am in @mbokhari’s team
@shimatoree,
Regarding my reference to the newspapers; I was implying that the reporters reporting from those places are natives and therefore, know the culture and people quite well. When a reporter writes from Buner that the Talibans are roaming around armed and that people are afraid of them and if the news are consistent in all major newspapers then I see no reason not to believe it.
Regarding sticking to the topic, I agree that most of the time we have failed to do that and deviated from the topic at hand. I strongly believe that the way Talibans are trying to dictate their brand of Shriah is completely wrong. I am extremely oppose to the beheadings that they have conducted, the ban that they are trying to impose on women on their free movement, blowing up of girl schools, etc,.; and all this is in the name of “their” Shriah. I was opposed to the way Sufi had threatened the Parliament before NAR regulation was tabled in the parliament. I was also opposed to the way NAR was hastily passed through the parliament and I believed that a big part of that was due to the threat issued by Sufi. IMO, a regulation of this magnitude should have been given due a thought and time.
IMO, the solution of this problem is political and no one, either Talibans or the government, can win at the gun point because if they think that they can then they will most likely end up destroying whatever is left of this country. The healing process should start by stopping the drone attacks as I genuinely believe that they are a big part of the problem. The government needs to show some backbone and “tell” the West that the drones WILL NOT violate our territory anymore and WE WILL SHOOT THEM DOWN if they do. I have commented in the past on this forum when NATO had fired missiles into the Pakistani territory which had resulted in civilian casualties that the army should have fired back so that the NATO wouldn’t do it again. I also believe that as part of putting closure on this ugly chapter of our history, may be the ugliest, Moshe should be tried and sentenced to death.
Instead of resorting to the ghastly violent and absurd measures that the Talibans have resorted to, they should have tried to muster political support from masses just like lawyers did and the entire nation responded to their call – because it was just – and we all know the outcome of that. I believe that if the Talibans had done that and people had marched towards Islamabad and pressurized the government to stop the drone attacks then the government would have had no option but to comply. But, because of Taliban’s behavior, this may be a lost opportunity now.
@khamosh…………..you……******
I think Madame Khamosh would have been better off if she had been khamosh. You have had enough airtime for your flimsy utterings. She is really mad
Don’t get too upset when you get your own (bitter) medicine. You are busy labeling everybody, who mentions Islam as “beardos”, “jamatias” etc. Grow up and learn to express your views properly instead the usual use of DIRTY language. Go wash your tongue! It is you who hang around with cheap shots.or rather scvmb@gs like @gul; ClarionCall, Kashif and democrate etc. I hope you will find happiness with your new friends.
Several”Taliban lovers”, “beardos” (using your language) has been trying to engage the likes of you in a meaningful debate, but you have opted to be on the side of the above mentioned low life Trojan Horses and thus been distracted from the real issues about how to define a realistic solution to the grave problems Pakistan is facing. You have failed miserably and you have dragged the debate to poor level, but maybe that’s intentional.
@GoTK
Profanities aside, this is the reason I have stopped contributing on this site. Initially it was so nice to come and express your views. People were few and the admin could actually take time to moderate.
Now everything turns into a slinging match or Zardari vs Sharif vs Altaf vs Sufi Kabaddi Match.
I wish there was a way to have a serious discussion on issues on this site…
@ amirhamid-
First and foremost I am grateful to you for your civility .
The problem of the violent behaviour of the Taliban-
Two issues-
One -lack of education not only in the formal sense but at home and in the environment also
two- impatience and hurry and the desire to fix things NOW.
And of course the concept of knowing the absolute abd being part of it.
Not many people are willing to question-( at least in an open forum) some fundamental rules which are supposed to have been set up by Sharia.
For example- the rule that the hands of theives should be cut off.
But you cannot apply that rule since we do not live in a welfare state where everyone has every thing and has no need to steal. But wait a minute- let us suppose we lived in a welfare state- would you really want to cut off anyone’s hand is he or she were a KLEPTOMANIAC ? No because you would have to say that they have a psychological disease.
Or the issue of 4 wives- which everyone says is allowed but in fact it is not since it is not possible for any human being to treat 4 different women EQUALLY.
The purpose of these comments is simply to put forth the theorey that the Taliban problem is far more complex and since we are always looking for easy quick fix solutions like Killing, Bombing etc- there is a tendency not to want to look at the whole problem and this very well illustrated here on this blog.
The ultimate goal in Islam is proximity to Allah
For this goal mankind is given a life span thats why great emphasis is given in Quran to sanctity of life.
Sharia is not the ultimate goal in Islam, its just a tool helping proximity to Allah.
The ultimate goal could be achieved individually and collectively, for collective achievement as ummah, sharia is necessary and thats recommended in Islam but not made compulsory, specially when human life is made cheap in the name of sharia, sanctity of human life must be maintained.
Use of force in Islam is prohibited unless for call of jihad , which is a technical issue.
We are given a free reins to steer ourselves under the guidance of Quran and sunnah.
The reason I am writing this post is to distiguish real philosophy of Islam under logic and Talibani Islam.
The Holy Quran in detail has talk about reward and punishment in hereafter and Allah has called Himself Adil(Just).
A forced sharia specially when its charged with exteremly sectarian deobandi style will not serve the purpose of ultimate goal i.e. proximity to Allah.
Taliban did not show good intentions when Swat was made(planned) captured by them, immediately they move to sunni Buner and took over shrine in the name of shirk.
Unlucky for them 80% of this country is not wahabi and perform what they call shirk.
A forced Islam means the concept of reward and punishment hereafter is baseless.
If I am forced to pray 5 times
If I am forced to pay zakat
If I am forced to fast in Ramadhan
A man do all these things not for Allah but for himself, he is the benficiary not Allah
Then
Wheres the concept of reward and punishment, if I am not allowed to perform on my free will.
I will not be accountable for my forced sins and I will not be rewarded for my forced thawab, this is against the justice of Allah.
So where is proximity to Allah if I am doing everything for the fear of Mulla Omar.
Islam is not about proximity to mulla Omar or Sufi, its about proximity to Allah.
And
Proximity to Allah could be achieved by many means one of them and important one is sharia but not necessary when 20% think 80% are mushrik and 80% think 20% are ignorant and they can not write even two page essay in Pashtu.
There are NO shortcuts towards a solution. We MUST realize that we HAVE to make our moves very carefully and with a mindset that things will move at a slow pace. Above all we must prepare ourselves for all kind of pressure from the “friends” of Pakistan. Off course our “time tested” American “friends” will be at our disposal anytime….given that we fight their…sorry “our” war.
@jazoo
Maulana jazoo lol dude ur doing same as taibaan telling us ur version of Islam. Lemme ask did u take religious education? R U mufti>? R U an Islamic scholor? Noo, right see there is no difference btween u guys and talibaans. Atlesast their excuse is they are not educated whats ur excuse oh wait ur kala sahab lol.
BTW ur wrong abt ur interpretation of Islam, i can counter all ur arguments but dun have time, so will mention one point, u said
“If I am forced to pay zakat”
Hazrat Abubakar who was surely lot better Muslim then all of us and surely knew Islam better then us had sent army to a tribe cuz they refused to pay zakat, he said agar kisi ke zimmey ek rassi ka tukra bhi zakart main nikalta ho to khuda ki qasam voh wasool kar ke rahoonga. Now lemme guess u gonna say he was wrong, and that war happend right after death of Prophet (PBUH) and osaman bin zaid RA led teh army defeated the tribe and though the tribe said we muslim, we will pray and do fasting but wont pay zakat they were told praying and fasting jsut dun cut it u have to pay zakat as ordered in quran.
tumhara haal hai
Neek hakeem khatra -e- jaan, neem mullah khatra-e-emaan.
@jazoo
oh one more thing, u said
Taliban did not show good intentions when Swat was made(planned) captured by them, immediately they move to sunni Buner and took over shrine in the name shirk.
Its ur govt that has never any intention of full filling it beside these mazars should raised as they stand against Prophet saying where he commanded us to make qabar kacchi so it disappears with time, and he specifically said dekho mere marney ke baaad meri qabar ko mazar na bana daina. So either Prophet wrong or ur mazar wrong.
Iqbal nay tumharey liye he kaha tha
khud badaltey nah quran ko badal daitey hain
lol
I was not following lately, who won the match anyway
@razakhan,
……right see there is no difference btween u guys and talibaans. Atlesast their excuse is they are not educated whats ur excuse oh wait ur kala sahab lol….
This is a real weak argument because in light of this, they can exonerate themselves from any wrongdoing.
….Its ur govt that has never any intention of full filling it beside these mazars should raised as they stand against Prophet saying where he commanded us to make qabar kacchi so it
I am not a mazar person myself but this is a sensative matter and the Talibans are not qualified to handle this.
@ amirhameed
sorry I addressed you as amirhamid.
@razakhan
I am sorry to say If Abu Bakr(ra) forced zakat its not binding unless you have an example where Prophet(saw) forced zakat.
To my knowledge Prophet(saw) forced Jizya or Tawan which is kind of penalty after waging a war on Mulims or breaking a contract but never forced zakat.
I am enlightend to know you can also use mulla sarcasm.
Islam is a deen of nature, one need not to be mulla or mufti to know what his heart feel.
Now lets forget you are hardcore wahabi and whatever I am, lets focus on what Quran says about reward and punishment.
For Zakat I pay on my free will I earn reward but for zakat I am forced to pay I earn nothing because the act is not on my free will and Quran says this world is all about testing of your deeds and reward is hereafter.
And Prophet says about deed(acts) depends on intentions. (innamal amaalo bin-niyaat).
What I have said so far you think need mufti intervention
Is it too difficult to understand
“A forced deed would have no rewards and Islam is all about reward and punishment”
You don’t need a mufti to understand just one line
When you think you have understood one line then you have a choice to disagree and come up with counter argument without showing sarcasm or hehe or stupid lols
@shimatoree
No worries, I know it was not intentional.
@Amir Hameed
What is your suggestion about a “road map to peace”?
What would you do (in chronological order)?
As a Puktoon/ Pushtoon I can say one thing wihtout doubt-
” the only way this whole mess is going to end is when the Western Forces leave Afghanistan and the leaders of Pakistan start thinking of the people of Pakistan rather than how thei policies might be seen or approved in the Western Capitals.”
As far as the Taliban are concerned- keep in mind the old syaing about political struggles-
If you want to defeat your opponent in politics- TAKE away their legitimacy and their credibility along with their issues . The Western stooges in Islamabad don’t plan on doing that and so the drama continues.
@gohst of TK @democrate@ kashif@jutt kharak@talal khan etc. if I missed anyone of you
Like WMD and 9/11 . Both are lies. US GOVT. had already learned the lesson by lying about 9/11 so they decided not to back up WMD and just use the propaganda about other issues. US govt. have admitted about lies in WMD case but not yet about 9/11 even some senators have doughted the 9/11 US govt. version.
both 9/11 and WMD are proven facts that US Govt. have lied.
I have posted this under IK topic How to clear this mess. I am posting it again here that might any of you have missed it. You can also check out other facts under the IK tpoic.
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm
Donot miss the canadian plane when it really hitted a warehouse
AN EYE OPENER AS WELL AS BRAIN OPENER.
IF US GOVT. CAN LIE ABOUT WMD SURELY IT CAN LIE ABOUT 9/11. THE VERDICT HAS BEEN GIVEN AND PROVEN WITH FACTS.
@ razakhan
The issue is not whether gooing to mazars is good or bad. The issue is whether a small group of people has the right to impose its wishes on others when there is a government present that has the “bayat” or allegiance of most people.
I can understand those who took up arms against musharraf government because he himself came to power though arms and did not have support of majority of the people. But the present government has came into being as a result oof elections in which a large majority of people participated. We may certainly disagree with many policies of this government. But we will have a chance to show our displeasure in teh next elections.
In the meanwhile, those who raise arms against this government are no different than “khawarij” who were very enthusiastic in their islamic beliefs but did severe harm to Muslims.
The only way to defeat these extremists is to take away their legitimacy and public support. Pakistani people have always supported implementation of Shariah and this is also enshrined in the constitution. If the constitution is implemented in letter and spirit, this will cut the legs of these extremists and remove their support.
@ razakhan
Bhai qasoor jazoo ka nahi hai, saara qasoor asal main tahirul padri ka hai. Maulana jazoo’s every post contains quotes and anecdotes of “maula Ali” as if they were words of the Quran itself, but abu bakr, whom the prophet(saw) said is the best person after the prophets, doesn’t seem to be good enough for him. Also he rejects abu bakr’s hikmah, but we are supposed to trust and obey maulana jazoo’s “hikmah” and fatwa that it is not important to implement shariah, that Allah sent it as a joke, and that it is better to not live under shariah to gain more rewards.
Sadqay jaaon main tere per aur tere padri per
@Shirkuh,
I have briefly mentioned it above in my response to @shimatoree. This is how I would like to proceed (my 2 cents, if you will):
- Tell NATO and US to immediately halt the drone attacks and if they do not comply then shoot down those that violate Pakistani air space. This will eliminate the civilian casualties which is one of the major causes of unrest.
- Stop providing any bases to NATO or US with immediate effect because without this, the above will not have much affect.
- Stop NATO from using its sea port for logistics.
- Ask militants (Talibans, etc.) to show restraint while the government is dealing with the drone issue.
- Tell NATO that Pakistan would retaliate if they bombed our territories from Afghanistan in pursuit of militants as dealing with them is strictly an internal matter and therefore, let the government deal with it on its own.
- Tell militants to withdraw their support for Al-Qaeda and this is very important. It does not matter whether Al-Qaeda was behind 9/11 or not, they are foreign fighters and are jeopardizing our sovereignty and we need to flush them out. If they want to fight the US then they should do so from their own countries and not from Pakistan.
- Tell Talibans that they will not be allowed to roam armed, kill and slaughter people, burn schools, suppress women, etc., at any cost and will be dealt with according to the law of the land.
- If SWATis want Nizam-e-Adl, which is not Shriah, then the government should conduct a consensus vote on it in those areas and if this is what the majority wants then so be it. I do not believe that it is simply left to the parliament to decide without a consensus vote from the people who will actually be in the middle of all this. The Parliament should debate on it in depth before passing it. The government should also ensure that under this Nizam-e-Adl, no one will be allowed to overthrow the writ of the government.
- The government should sincerely work on the issues that Balochistan is facing at the same time that it is dealing with the above. Balochistan has been deprived of development and opportunities for a long time and it will take time and effort to develop trust there.
Now, some of the above, where we are dealing with the West, may be a bit tricky primarily because of Pakistan’s financial situation (the country is almost bankrupt), and therefore, the government will need to walk very carefully because like it or not, the West can try to choke Pakistan by depriving it of the financial support. I see this as our weakest spot and something that the West can easily exploit.
There are a lot of things that needs to be done in Pakistan, but considering the present situation, I consider as the most important ones.
In the recent history look at the pattern:
Peral harbour= Reason to bom Japan with nukes.
Reason to help opposition /people = Breakage of Columbia and Panama emerged as an independent country ( Panama canal to help US traders)
So called attack on US ship / interests = Reason to enter Arab Israeli war
Iraqi attack on Kuwait = Reason for fisrt gulf war
Attack on Twin towers and pentagon= Reason to attack Afghanistan
WMD = Reason to invade Iraq
What reason/ So called Taliban/ What event = To attack Pakistan.
What reason = to attack Iran.
It is not “IF” they are going to attack Pakistan / Iran it is “WHEN” they are going to attack.
The British Independent newspaper provided some additional information. It noted, “A Western official close to the investigation said the secret units are still known as Campaign Forces, from the time when American Special Forces and CIA spies recruited Afghan troops to help overthrow the Taliban during the US-led invasion in 2001. ‘The brightest, smartest guys in these militias were kept on,’ the official said. ‘They were trained and rearmed and they are still being used.’”
The Independent went on to cite one incident involving British forces. “In Helmand, where most of Britain’s 7,800 troops are based, Special Forces were accused of slitting a man’s throat in a botched night raid last year. Security sources now claim the operation was mounted by a secret spy unit.”
Check the whole story at
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/may2008/afgh-m19.shtml
By Ayatullah Jafar Subhani
The scholars of Islam with the support of verses of Qur’an and traditions have recommended ziyarat of grave especially the ziyarat of the Holy Prophet’s grave and those of the pious people and consider this to be a virtue and honour. However, Wahhabis do not consider the principle of ziyarat to be haram (in apparent terms) but declare that the journey for ziyara towards the grave of the awliya Allah as unlawful and haram. After completion of the principle of ziyarat, we shall discuss the matter of journey for ziyarat of the graves of the awliya Allah
Ziyarat of graves has many ethical influences and is important for moral education and training that we shall mention here very briefly.
Looking at this silent valley (i.e. graveyard) which has blown off the light of life of everyone from the poor to the rich and the weak to the powerful and all of them being buried with only three pieces of cloth, purifies the mind and the heart and reduces greed and avarice of a person to a great extent. If a person possesses an eye which can see warnings he can there by learn a lesson and think within himself as such: A transient life of 60 or 70 years ending in getting concealed under the soil and then decaying and getting destroyed is not so much valuable that a person strives hard to achieve wealth and position and does injustice upon himself and the others.
Witnessing this silent valley which softens the most adamant heart and makes the most heavy ear to hear and gives brightness to the most poor eye-sight, causes a person to review his plans in life and ponder over the great responsibilites which he has before Allah and the people and controls his desires.
The Holy Prophet (s) refering to this point in a tradition says:
“Visit the graves; for visiting them becomes the cause of remembering the next world”. [1]
While the authenticity and firmness of ziyarat of graves is so obvious that it is needless to produce proofs and reasonings to a great extent yet, we reflect here some of the proofs for those who are doubtful.
Qur’an and ziyarat of Graves:
Qur’an clearly instructs that the Holy Prophet (s) should not perform prayer over the dead body of the hypocrites and should not stand near their graves. It says:
“And never offer prayer for anyone of them who dies and do not stand by his grave, surely they disbelieve in Allah and His Apostle and they shall die in transgression”. (Tauba: 84)
In this verse, for destroying the character of the hypocrites and rebuking the members of this group, the God commands the Holy Prophet (s):
1. Not to perform salat over the dead body of anyone of them.
2. Not to stand over their graves; and this reality is presented with the sentence;
When the Holy Qur’an commands that one should avoid these two actions with regards to the hypocrites it means that for others who are not hypocrites these actions are good and worthy to be performed.
Now let us see what means? Does it refer only to the standing at the time of burial which in the case of hypocrites is not permissible and in the case of the believers good and necessary? Or it also refers to standing at the time of burial and at other instances?
Some of the commentators think that the verse refers to the matter of standing at the time of burial but some others like al-Baydawi see the verse from a far angle and interpret it as such:
Don’t stand on grave for burial or pilgrimage. [2]
Paying attention to the contents of verse will show that it is having a wider meaning i.e. it concerns standing at the time of burial as well as stopping after the burial.
This is because two sentences form the gist of the subject matter of this verse and these two sentences comprises of:
1.
“And never offer prayer for anyone of them who dies……” (Tauba: 84)
The word of which has been placed in the course of prohibition is good for all individuals.
The word of is good for all times and the meaning of the sentence will be as such: “Do not perform salat for any one of the hypocrites at any time”.
By paying attention to these two words we can easily understand that the meaning of this particular sentence is not refering to recitation of salat over the dead body because reciting salat over the dead body takes place only once and that is before the burial and it cannot be repeated. If it specifically meant recitation of salat over the dead, then it was needless to bring the word. And to imagine that this word serves the purpose of expressing all individuals is completely irrelevant because the sentence is sufficient for such inclusion and purpose and there is no need to mention it once again.
Moreover, the word in Arabic refers to time and not individuals such as:
“Nor that you should marry his wives after him ever;…” (Ahzab: 53)
Therefore the essence of the first sentence is: Never seek forgiveness and mercy for anyone of the hypocrites whether at the time of reciting salat or otherwise.
2. And now we will discuss the second sentence:
The meaning of this sentence in connection with the previous sentence is as such:
because the adverbs which are present in are also applicable for .
Therefore it cannot be said that qiyam (standing) refers to the qiyam at the time of burial because it is presumed that qiyam at the time of burial for each one is not subject to repetition and the word too is commendable in this sentence which shows that this action is worthy of repetition.
The reply to the supposition that this word is applicable for all individuals was given in the previous sentence since with the presence of it is needless to express that once again.
By paying attention to these two points in the words and one can say:
God has prohibited the Holy Prophet (s) from seeking any kind of mercy for the hypocrites whether by means of reciting salat upon the dead body or merely by means of du’a and from any kind of standing over their graves whether at the time of burial or after the burial. This means that these two actions i.e. ‘seeking forgiveness’ and ‘standing’ is permissible and worthy for the grave of a believer in all the instances and one of such instances is standing for ziyarat and recitation of Qur’an for a believer who has been buried there for years.
Now we shall discuss the virtue and excellence of ziyarat of graves from the viewpoint of traditions.
Traditions and ziyarat of Graves:
From the Islamic traditions which the authors of Sihah and Sunan have narrated, we derive the conclusion that the Holy Prophet (s) had prohibited, due to a temporary reason, the ziyarat of graves and later on allowed the people to make haste for ziyarat.
Perhaps the reason for prohibition was that their dead ones were predominantly polytheists and idol-worshippers and Islam had cut off their relation and affection with the world of polytheism. It is also possible that the reason for prohibition was something else and that is the newly converted Muslims were writing elegies and saying un-Islamic things over the graves of the dead polytheists. But after the expansion of Islam and the ‘faith’ entering into the hearts of people, this prohibition was lifted and the Holy Prophet (s) permitted the people to go for the ziyarat of graves because of the educative benefits, so that people should hasten to visit graves
The writers of Sunan and Sihah narrate as such:
“I had prohibited you from ziyara of graves. From now on, go for ziyara because it will make you feel unattached towards this world and make you remember the hereafter.” [3]
It is on the same basis that the Holy Prophet (s) was visiting the grave of his mother and informing the people to visit the graves since ziyara is the source of remembering the hereafter. Here is the text of the tradition:
“The Holy Prophet (s) visited the grave of his mother and cried near her grave and also made others around him to cry. Thereafter he said: I have taken permission from my Lord to visit the grave of my mother. You too should visit the graves because such a visit will remind you of death.” [4]
4. Ayesha says that the Holy Prophet (s) freely allowed the ziyarat of graves,
[5]
“The Prophet of God permitted the visit of graves”.
5. Ayesha says: The Holy Prophet (s) taught me the manner of visiting the graves. Here is the text of the tradition:
“My lord commanded me to come to Baqi’ and seek forgiveness for them. (Ayesha) says: I asked him how one should seek forgiveness to which the Holy Prophet (s) replied: Say Peace (Salaam) be upon the people of this place from the believers and muslims, May God have mercy on those who have left and those who are to follow. We shall join you all very soon.” [6]
6. In another tradition, there are some sentences which the Holy Prophet (s) used when performing ziyarat of graves. It is as follows:
Peace be with you the groups of believers and we will be return to you and rely on you and certainly if God wishes, we will join you. O God, have mercy on all those (buried) in Baqi’ al-Garqad* [7]
*Garqad was a tree in Baqi’ graveyard. And because of this tree, it was commonly called as the land of Garqad.
7. In another tradition, the text of ziyarat is narrated in a different way:
Peace be with you the groups of believers and muslims, and certainy we will join you. You will exhilarate us and we will follow you. We ask welfare from you for ourselves and for yourself. [8]
8. In the third tradition, the text is narrated still differently:
Peace be with you the groups of believers and if God wishes, we will join you. [9]
From the tradition of Ayesha, we got knowledge that whenever the last part of night was approaching, the Holy Prophet (s) would go towards Baqi’ and say:
Peace be with you! The groups of believers and what has been promised to you will be given to you, soon in future your destiny will reach you. And certainly, we will be the joiners to you soon. And if God wishes, will be with you. O God! Have mercy on all those (buried) in Baqi’ al-Garqad. [10]
From another tradition we come to know that the Holy Prophet (s) used to hasten, along with a group of people for ziyarat of graves and teach them the manner of doing ziyarat:
The Prophet (s) used to teach them that when they go out to graves they should say: Peace be with those who live in houses (graves). Peace be with you the groups of believers and muslims. Certainly if God wishes, we will be joiners to you. We ask safety for ourselves and yourselves. [11]
Women and ziyarat of Graves
The only matter which is remaining is the matter of ziyara by women which in some of the traditions, the Holy Prophet (s) has prohibited them from doing so.
“The Prophet of God has cursed the women who go excessively for ziyarat.” [12]
But it should be known that utilizing this tradition for proving prohibition of ziyarat is not correct due to a number of reasons: firstly, most of the scholars think this prohibition to be in the makruh sense and the reason for it being makruh was because of the special conditions prevailing at that time. One of the commentators of tradition i.e., the writer of Miftah al-haja fi sharh Sahih Ibn Maja refers to that and says:
“The scholars are having two opinions about the prohibition. That whether it is prohibited in the makruh sense or prohibited in the haram sense! But most of the scholars believe that women can go for ziyara if they are certain of remaining safe from any trouble.” [13]
Secondly, we have read in the previous traditions (kindly refer to tradition number 4) that Ayesha narrates from the Holy Prophet (s) that the latter declared free the ziyara of graves. If the women were excluded from this declaration then it is necessary to remind that this declaration is exclusively for men especially when the narrator is a lady and amongst the people to whom he (i.e. Prophet) was addressing was a lady and every addressee will naturally think that the order and declaration is directed to him or her.
Thirdly, some of the traditions mention the manner in which the Holy Prophet (s) taught Ayesha to perform ziyara of graves [14] and Ayesha herself used to personally visit the graves after the Holy Prophet (s).
Fourthly, al-Tirmidhi narrates that when Ayesha’s brother i.e. ‘Abd al-Rahman bin Abi Bakr died in Ethiopia, his body was taken to Mecca and buried there. When his sister Ayesha came to Mecca from Medina, she visited grave of her brother and by the side of his grave, recited two couplets in his sorrow and made speech (about him).[15]
The commentator of Sahih al-Tirmidhi Imam Hafiz Ibn al-‘Arabi [al-Maliki] (born in 435 AH and died in 543 AH) writes in his additional notes on Sahih.
“The fact is that the Holy Prophet (s) has permitted the men and the women to go for ziyara. If some of the traditions mention it to be makruh it is because of restlessness and impatience near the grave or because of not observing proper hijab.”
Fifthly, Bukhari narrates from Anas that the Holy Prophet (s) saw a woman crying over her beloved one and comforted her to have faith and be patient. The woman not recognising the Holy Prophet (s), said: “you release me from the calamity which has befallen upon me and not befallen upon you”. When it was said to her that he was the Holy Prophet (s) she left the grave and went to the house of the Holy Prophet (s) pleading pardon for not recognising him. The Holy Prophet (s) replied: “Patience is advised at the time of misfortunes”. [16]
If ziyara was forbidden, the Holy Prophet (s) would have prohibited her from this action while he only asked her to adopt patience. Moreover, after the women visited the house of the Holy Prophet (s) he talked of patience and steadfastness at the time of misfortunes and did not say anything about ziyara of grave; otherwise he would have ordered her not to visit the grave of her beloved one any more.
Sixthly, Fatima (‘a), daughter of the Holy Prophet (s), used to visit every Friday the grave of her uncle Hamza and recite prayer (salat) and cry sadly at his grave. [17]
Seventhly, al-Qurtubi says that the Holy Prophet (s) did not prohibit any lady going for ziyara. Instead he cursed those ladies who were going for ziyara very often as he uses the words and which is used for exaggeration [18]
Perhaps the reason of cursing such a habit is that excessive ziyarat is the source of spoiling the rights of husband. If such factors are absent in the ziyara of one lady then there is no problem as such since remembering death is a matter which is necessary for both men and women.
Eighthly, if ziyara of grave is the source of getting unattached towards this world and a reduction of the greed of the person in helping him to remember the Hereafter, it also brings some benefit for the dead one i.e. for the one who is buried under the soil and is helpless from doing anything. This is because the Islamic ziyara is usually accompanied by recitation of al-Fatiha and giving its reward to the deceased. In fact this is the best gift which an alive person can give to his or her beloved dead one.
Ibn Maja narrates in his Sahih that the Holy Prophet (s) said:
“Recite Sura Yasin upon your dead ones” [19]
Therefore, there is no difference between man and woman that one should be permitted and the other should be forbidden, except that if the women are faced with some special situations that we previously discussed. Now, that the matter of ziyara of the graves of believers is clear for us and it is now necessary to refer to the valuable effects of ziyarat of the graves of the awliya Allah and the beloved ones of Allah.
Notes:
[1] Sunan Ibn Maja, vol. 1, p. 113 chapter of
[2] Tafsir al-Baydawi, vol. 3, p. 77.
[3] Sunan Ibn Maja, chapter of vol.1, p.114, (Indian edition); Sahih al-Tirmidhi chapter of vol. 3 p. 274 along with commentary of Ibn al-‘Arabi Maliki, (Lebanon edition); After narrating the tradition from Burayda, al-Tirmidhi says:
‘The tradition of Burayda is correct and the people of knowledge act upon it. They do not put forward any obstacle for performing ziyara of graves and they are people such as Ibn al-Mubarak, al-Shafi’i, Ahmad and Ishaq.’ Meanwhile, you may refer to the following documents:
Sahih Muslim, vol. 3. page 65 chapter of
Sahih Abu Dawud, vol.2. p. 195, book of chapter of
Sahih Muslim, vol. 4 p. 73, book of chapter of
[4] Sahih Muslim, vol. 3, p. 65, chapter of
Sahih Ibn Maja, vol. 1, p. 114.
According to the narrators of this tradition, the reason the Holy Prophet (s) took permission from Allah for visiting the grave of his mother was that his mother was a polytheist. Undoubtedly the mother of Holy Prophet (s) was a monotheist and a believer like her father, grandfather and ancestors. For this reason all the portion of this tradition is incompatible with the religious standards.
Sunan Abi Dawud, vol. 2 p. 195. Book of Egyptian print along with the additional notes of Shaykh Ahmad Sa’d from the scholars of Azhar.
Sahih Muslim, vol. 4 p. 74, book of chapter of
[5] Sahih Ibn Maja, vol. 1, p. 114.
[6] Sunan al-Nasa’i, vol. 3 p. 76; and Sahih Muslim, vol. 3, p. 64 chapter of
[7] Sunan al-Nasa’i, vol. 40, pp. 76- 77.
[8] Sunan al-Nasa’i, vol. 40, pp. 76- 77.
[9] Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 2, p. 196.
[10] Sahih Muslim, vol. 3, p. 63 chapter of
[11] Sahih Muslim, vol. 3, p. 110 chapter of
[12] Sahih Ibn Maja, (1st Edition, Egypt), vol. 1, p. 478, book of chapter of
[13] Hawashi of Sunan Ibn Maja, (Indian edition), vol. 1, p. 114.
[14] Refer to tradition no. 5.
[15] Sunan al-Tirmidhi, vol. 4, p. 275 book of chapter of
[16] Sahih Bukhari, p. 100, book of chapter of ; Sunan Abi Dawud, vol. 2 p. 171.
[17] al-Hakim, Mustadrak al-sahihayn, vol. 1, p. 377; al-Samhudi, Wafa’ al-wafa’, vo1. 2 p. 112.
[18] Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 2, p. 196 has narrated
[19] Sahih Bukhari, p. 100, book of chater of ; Sunan Abi Dawud, vol. 2 p. 171.
@Traffic
You have problem reading the posts
Nowhere I mention Mola Ali
As regard to Hikma of Abu Bakr(ra) even if its Hikma of Ali and its against the hikmah of Prophet I will follow hikmah of Prophet(saw).
@Shirkuh:
I’ve said this before and I’ll repeat it again, discourse is not really a tag team popularity contest amongst pre-teen highschoolers (or at least we shouldn’t pretend all the time as if it were.)
Once in a while it is ok for shits and giggles or purely for sadistic reasons, but every day, day in day out, it is just tedious and tiresome.
My sincere suggestion: Try and develop an independent point of view instead of getting cheap thrills by doing point scoring matches with imagined adversaries and playing slavish toady to random internet trolls.
Take a stand, and have the courage to admit that sometimes YOU can be wrong too, like you are right now re: the whole talib issue. (IMO).
well see thats the problem…. we have never impletmented laws that are in the constitution… so there is a void… fix the void these extreme elements will automatically loose their grounds.
Who let the Criminals out
Who Who and WHO??
Who is slitting civilians throats while wearing masks? and By whos orders? who is really behind all this killing???
Why they do not wanna show their faces. Why they wanna hide their IDs???
Talibans or Zionists and their hired criminals.
Fassad (Mossad) > looks like Arabs and speak Arabic like Arabs/ their hired criminals could be Afghani or Pakistani or have any other nationality.
Ignore the propoganda!
counter the very real militant threat of the taliban and make some meaningful gains socially,
when things are really rosy and beautiful in pakistan – there will be an automatic drop in propoganda – at that point whatever little propoganda there is, will actually seem like a lie/conspiracy theory and very few will care. (just like babu who keeps beating the drum that the heavily documented 9/11 was a lie – and most of us ignore his rumblings – because they seem so outrageous).
truth/reality is: bombs go off everyday, security forces are threatened etc. and taliban TAKES HONORABLE CREDIT EVERY SINGLE TIME.
like i said – right now, truth/reality is: security-wise, things are ugly in pakistan and you can easily exaggerate the ugly to make it look uglier.
@Gosht of TK
What do you say about 9/11. Do you Believe the US Govt. version of 9/11.
Similarity between 9/11 and WMDs. Both were lies.
I wonder about that:
When US and NATO bombed Iraq and Afghanistan and still killing them:
Did they ask the Iraqi or Afghani civilians if they were sunni, shia, wahabi, beralvi or any other sect of Muslims. THEY JUST SIMPLY BOMBED THEM INDISCRIMINATELY. DID NOT THEY???
So stop fighting among themselves and see the real threat.
UNITED WE STAND AND DIVIDED WE FALL.
@ Amir Hameed
The proposals which you have given are fairly good. I guess these are what most of Pakistanis agree upon.
The problem starts when some people totally ignore the problems posed by our alliance with USA and demand stern action against taliban only.
As for financial cost of our pulling out of the western alliance, there woud certainly be a cost but it would be much less than what we are suffering now. Today, the estimates of our economic losses as a result of our alliance with america range between 35-65 billion US$ while we have received only about US$ 11 billion in aid much of which was payment for supplies to US forces in Afghanistan.
So once we pull out from this alliance, the cost would be very much manageable. Besides we managed to survive even in a much weaker economic position after our nuclear tests.
@Amir Hameed
I agree with most of your suggestions and believe that if these steps are taken by Pakistani Govt. will solve most of the problems and will provide a better situation but the question is will Pakistani Govt. take all these steps against US Govt. and NATO.
The Taliban’s are coming ,The Taliban’s are coming….
The Russians are coming, The Russians are coming …
The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming is a 1966 American comedy film. Based on the Nathaniel Benchley juvenile novel, The Off-Islanders, it was adapted for the screen by William Rose. The movie tells the Cold War story of the comedic chaos which ensues when the Soviet submarine, Спрут (Sprut, Squid), accidentally runs aground near a small New England island town.
The Taliban’s are coming, is a 2009 Nato, Indian Army, US Hollywood Rambo army and the Israeli “defense forces” London based and financed propaganda unit in ”MQM” “tragedy reality show“, based on lies, deception, fear, intrigue and full support of the Grave worshiping PPPP and the leader of the pack of soul less creatures, Asaif Zardari and his demon Son.
Now the alarmist, the Western paid agents and their dung beetle, self proclaimed Ghosts, , Democrats and other vermin’s who are the part and parcel of this thread are screaming their lungs off that , Taliban’s are coming, Taliban’s are coming…..Mama hide your cleavage and cover your hairy legs, hide under the bed, papa stop drinking cheep liquor and foundling me and hide under the bed…..poor westernized little monkeys are jumping upside down with the fear? of unknown along with their leader Altaf Bhai, a paid agent of the “Neo-Satan’s”, a little demon himself has learned a new mantra, The Taliban’s are coming, The Taliban’s are coming….
The whole American Media and their little whores are almost in convulsion and foaming from their mouths by repeating the same lie over and over, the Taliban’s are coming the Taliban’s are coming. The Indian media, the politicians, the Afghan pocket puppets, the Israelis, the American Zio Nazis, the British colonizers and war mongers and the Pakistani paid slaves and servants of the masters are running around in circles are screaming that The Taliban’s are coming, the Taliban’s are coming.
Pakistan with one of the largest armies in the world, The Nato, USA, Afghan ruling??? Puppets and the whole world is afraid of ten to fifteen thousand lightly armed bearded or for “special effects”’ Masked” gunmen are creating this great anxiety and fear in to this little liberal demarcate sheep? Calm down you morons, if they come they will be dealt with force by Pakistan army and the brave people of Pakistan. It is no more than a Law and order situation hyped-up to a hysteria to cover-up the real issues, such as the Nato and American illegal presence in Central Asia, the incompetent grave worshiping pppp’s complete failure to run the government and the Indians propaganda machine to equate the Kashmir resistance and their supporters as “Terrorists”.
There is another solution that, Altaf Bahi should call a long march of MQM brain-dead followers of psychopaths towards the mountains and drown all the Taliban’s in Urdu Spiking “Pan chewing spits“. Altaf Bhai should lead them with the bravery as he shows on “Telephonic Speeches”. All the permanent residents of the Pkpolitics, the western pay masters paid bitches can also join in to free Pakistan from Taliban, instead of calling everyone Taliban sympathizers or Islamist.
@Adonis,
I was not referring to the cost that is paid in the form of supporting the US and NATO troops or the cost of supporting Pakistani military personnal. I was referring to the cost in terms of sanctions, like, imposition of ban on Pakistani exports, etc. This is something that Pakistan will need to carefully plan for.
This news item pretty much sums up the biased in our justice system and is also a big part of the problem in our system.
Jungle law
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/16-jungle-law-hs-01
@BABU FROM USA,
…but the question is will Pakistani Govt. take all these steps against US Govt. and NATO.
The same government was also against the restoration of CJ IMC but after the strength shown by the masses, it had no other option left but to restore judges. IMO, people feel very strongly about the drone attacks in Pakistan and it will not be that difficult for a movement to gain traction on this issue. This will also give the [spineless] government a face saving excuse – that it could present to the West – to justify its opposition to the drone attacks.
@Amir Hameed
I wish it happens today than tomarrow but unfortunately I donot see any signs of that movement. But I still wish for that movement “A HOPE”.
WMDs = World’s Most Denials.
Mossad = Fassad
NATO= North American Terrorist Organisation
CIA= Corrupt Inhuman Alliance
RAW= Rotten As* Whole
@ Amir Hameed
I have another suggestion to Pakistani Govt.
Just simply announce that any attack on Pakistan regardless by who USA, NATO or so called Talibans or anyone else >Pakistan will retaliate in response and will use all its nukes and all its power to finish India. From India to End-ia.
I tell you Indians will go to their Masters US and Israeli Govts. and will tell them not to mess with Pakistan coz Indian As* will be on stake. Also they will stop infiltrating inside Pakistan through so called Talibans and will also stop messing in Baluchistan. Instead, they will give us info if anyone will try to attack Pakistan.
Talibans learnt this lesson of breaking the written agreements fromZardari. This is true that Taliban have overstepped their mark in some areas of Swat but in reality Zardari is more dangerous to Pakistam. Zardari broke the written agreements and Zardri wasted the whole one year on the issue of Judiciary and then he started the Drama of Governor Rule in Punjab. And attack on Sri Lankan Team, Police Academy, recent attacks on various check posts in Hangu, Charsada etc gave a big blow to the credibility of Zardari.
All Zardari wants picture of Benazir every where, doesn’t matter whatever the situation demands He just wants put up the picture of Benazir. In fact putting her picture becomes a Source of Mass Distraction.
Taliban will come to their senses soon but Zardari, Rehman Malik and Salman Taseer will never learn and they are the real WMD for Pakistan
@savage – posting/6.31 am
How did you manage to paste Urdu Article here. I have tried to copy and paste from Urdu In-page and have tried few other downloads but it never seems to work for me.
Kindly explain step by step here how to proceed, because I feel that sometimes it is much easier to explain things in Urdu. I am partcularly keen to know abour Urdu Nastaleeq style.
I am sure Admin PK won’t mine, this is for the benefit for all of us.
Thanking you in advance Mr Savage and Bhabi Admin.
@
BABU FROM USA
Agree with you brother.
India with the help of Americans are trying to push Pakistan into corner. End result will be Pakistan will be forced to use Nuked for its existence and India will be legitimate target.
I hope Zardari realizes that. pakistans real enemies are USA, india, israel …
The problem with the extremists in Pakistan: How can we effectively fix it?
The US approach to fixing the extremist problem in Pakistan involves dropping bombs on us to kill the extremists. The problem with that plan is that it works with faceless germs and bacteria, but not with people. In the tribal area both the extremists and regular people live. When you bomb the extremists you also kill the regular folks. That creates a new crop of extremists, formerly known as, “the regular people”.
The Pakistanis have two approaches to this problem. The first one is, “Do what the Americans tell you to do, or they will come and do it for you”. That approach has the same result as the American bombing formula, since it involves bombing our own territory under pressure from the US.
The second approach that the Pakistanis employ from time to time is negotiations with the extremists. Negotiations are the right approach, however, the negotiations, as they are being conducted today, are not effective. Additionally, negotiations are not the only trick in the bag.
First of all, in order to negotiate one must understand with whom one is negotiating and for what one is negotiating. It is clear from the tactics used by the Taliban and the rest of the wonderful montage of extremist lunatics, what they want. What they want is to create the same “Islamic Utopia” in Pakistan that they were able to build in Afghanistan before 9/11. They say they want to implement shariah (Islamic Law) and Pakistanis hear that word and think how could someone talking about religion do us harm. Here, one must ask, what shariah are you talking about? The shariah you and I understand is different from what they hope to impose. For their shariah includes practices like, blowing up businesses, destroying schools, setting hotels on fire, doing abductions, committing murders of peace committee members, and yes, suicide bombings and beheadings of innocent civilians.
Secondly, our negotiations with the Taliban should be on our terms, not theirs. We should define what they must do to implement a peace agreement. We should not be begging them for concessions; they should be asking us for favors. We are a nation, they are not. We have a 500,000-strong military they don’t. We live here, this is our country, we will define how it must be run, and we will defend its borders, plain and simple.
Since we do not seem to have the upper hand in the negotiations, the idea of negotiations doesn’t seem to be working. We negotiate, they get the break they need and they regroup and fortify their positions and press on. What must we do?
First of all, Pakistanis must ask themselves: Is this the Pakistan they want for their children? Is this the Pakistan they want for their future? Do we want to live in a country where you cannot enjoy music and the arts? Where TV sets are banned and where there are no shops where you could get a haircut. Where women cannot work and can be sold into slavery just because they are women. Where bearded men roam around imposing their morality on all of us? Where minorities are second class citizens? Is this the Islam we have in mind? Is this what we call “the religion of peace”? Do we really think that this is all Islam is? A religion that is imposed not embraced? A faith that is followed under threat of violence, not out of love of God and his Prophet (peace be upon him)? Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance, but these extremists are not about peace and tolerance. Islam was introduced to the world as a force for good and a framework for building a society based on the pursuit of justice, tolerance, kindness and generosity, but these loonies are pursuing something else.
We need to realize that these are the enemies of Pakistan and Islam. Many Pakistanis are divided on this because they hear Islamic words coming out of these people and they think that these must be the good guys. The same reason we ask the Americans to not associate extremists with Islam, we too, must not link these crazy people and their words to our religion. They are neither Islamic nor good. Those who find getting a haircut a major crime, but blowing oneself up and killing countless innocent people a deed worthy of high reward from Allah is not a Muslim but pure evil.
Second, we need to go on a media blitz and start educating our masses about how ridiculous and absurd the ideals of the extremists are, and that there is nothing Islamic about them at all. This must be done consistently and at all levels. We must get to a point as a nation where these folks are considered lunatics, fanatics, nut jobs, crazies and absolutely not worthy of any respect. Their actions should be repulsive and insulting to us. Their ideals should be so offensive to us that no one would associate with their kind. Just as in America, after decades of struggle, racism is no longer a virtue one is proud of, but a scar one must be ashamed of, although there are plenty of scarred bodies out there. We too, must project and promote within Pakistan, all things Islamic that teach us moderation and tolerance; at the same time discouraging and denouncing all extremist and incorrect interpretations of our faith.
Third, we need to infiltrate their organizations, madrassahs and mosques where the Taliban and the extremists hang out. Secure key positions in mosques, and madrassahs where they train these militants. We need to use our intelligence agencies for this, just like the FBI infiltrated the KKK in the US back in the early part of the last century. The KKK was much stronger back then. Now they are ridiculed everywhere and they have virtually no power.
Fourth, we need to try to arrest their leaders on crimes that they commit (beheadings, torture, abductions, suicide bombings etc). Make a case against the leaders and arrest them. If you can’t get the evidence for that, get them on other charges like (burglary, theft, illegal financial deals etc). The point is, get them one way or the other, like it was done in the US when America had to deal with the mob and the organized crime.
And finally, the fifth thing we must do is, “take ‘em out one by one”. When you can’t arrest them on a crime, find them and kill them. Take out their leaders, their next in command and so on. We have the best sharp shooters in the military, use them. Massive military force should only be used in the mountains and away from cities and towns to demolish their remote positions. We should never enter our cities and towns with blazing guns and roaring tanks as this has a lasting negative psychological effect on the local population and we do not need that.
Since you can’t bomb the neighborhoods, and the current form of dialog doesn’t work as the demands of the extremists are barbaric and tantamount to surrendering our country to them, this systematic infiltration, reconnaissance and dismantling of their training centers from the inside out is the way to go. A slow but well organized implosion of their organizations is the key.
Sal Suboor
San Diego, CA 92138
ssuboor4475@yahoo.com
The writer is a political activist and a community leader; works with and interacts with several American Muslim organizations including MPAC, CAIR and MAS. By profession, the writer is a software engineer for a biotech company.
I would like to quote @mbokhari here as I consider this a big part of the overall problem in Pakistan and something that requires serious attention if Pakistan wants to survive on long term basis:
There are unlikely to be many countries in the world where feudalism is as deeply ingrained as in Pakistan, and landed interests dominate most of the larger parties.
@All
I see Baboons have been running amok here.
May I suggest that we stop over-simplifying things like our senior partners in crime (The Americans).
For a start
1. I don’t accept “TTP” as a genuine resistance movement. It is a false flag operation. And at best a very heavily penetrated organisation that serves the manipulator’s purpose right on cue.
2. The Afghan resistance is a legitimate resistance and you can call it whatever you wish to call it. I can imagine some will insist on calling them beardos etc but then so were Che Guevara and Castro, Nujoma and several other revolutionaries who fought the imperialist right wing Fascist.
3. The Americans are leaving Afghanistan. The question is after paying what price?
I know it is difficult for some of “us” to understand the current complex situation.
Finally can I assure my countrymen that the TTP does not have the capacity to do much more then it has already done. I think the next attack will be on Baluchistan front.
Again I am sure the simpleton will not be able to understand.
some people think if america leave the region that will help to normalise the situation.but my opinion is opposite.if america leavetaliban will capture afghnistan in couple of months that will embolden pakistani taliban.i know pakistani army is capable to defend pakistan but continueing arm strggle against pakistan will damage its federation.
pakistan should seek the help of friends of pakistan to defeat taliban decisively and for good.so far what ever pakistan did that was to please america and to get foreign aid but now is the time pakistan must wage war against taliban for her own survival with full commitment.to eliminate taliban for ever and for the bright future . pakistan must consult her friends and seek military and financial aid from them.more delay to take decisive action will be very dangerouse for pakistan.
Gujarat Muslims the ‘living dead’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8011615.stm
Just a taste of “secularism” for the Baboons
@tauqeer akbar,if secularism is so bad then why pakistani spend so much money to go to america and west.
i just wonder why nawaz shreef prefer to live in london rather than in suadi arabia.
@Tauqeer Akbar
“Gujarat Muslims the ‘living dead’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8011615.stm
Just a taste of “secularism” for the Baboons”
So if they are being killed by secularism it just a bad taste for “Baboons” but if they are being beheaded, blown apart by suicide bombings(even in mosques, funerals), dragged out from grave by khuwarjies, that is Jihad feesabillilaah?
Till what time people would keep hiding their filth behind India, America or beard?
@Saeed Afzal
I didn’t do anything special, simply copied from bbc/urdu and pasted here, maybe some font issue, ask mbokhari he writes his stuff and delight to read as well.
@ Javaid khan
I guess it will be better even if we make that as a part of our foreign policy and add Israel with india.
@ democrate
stop jumping here and there. you are just a waste of time. I challenge you that you will never be able to answer my questions > coz I know you simply cannot?
I agree that Taliban are dangerous, ideologically driven and have a cause to fight, “occupation” of their land by the infidels?
Just now, I watched Hitlery Clinton, who is so naive that her husband was getting sexual pleasure in the same house(white house) and she did not even notice? But soooo smart to regurgitate the fear of Taliban taking over a country of 170 million people with three million army and militias by a ragtag group of few thousand men on 1990 Toyota pickups, donkeys and mules ,thus with the help of the old bogeymen Al Quada? Will control the nuclear arsenal of Pakistan.
This (Hitlary Clinton)women has taken too many male hormones and is going ape, she should hookup with Madonna and get her sexual frustrations out and leave the people of Pakistan alone. ….
Pakistani people have been paying with their lives the price for the Pakistani ruling and military elites, who’s sons and daughters and family are living and educating in the West and they have billions of dollars stashed in those countries from looting the treasure of Pakistan and with the payments of their services rendered to the “West “during the cold war and now a “hot war”, (a war of lies, full of hot air”.
If you were old enough, you may remember the continual bomb blasts in the super markets, the cinema theaters and public areas by the KBG, Raw(Indian) and Communist afghan agencies. My parents did not go to the movies for years. Tens of millions of Pakistanis lost their lives, the gun culture, the drugs flowed to Pakistan like a flood. This problem of Taliban’s, armed thugs and militias has roots from the 80’s, funded by the Saudis and armed by us Americans.
Same Taliban were called “Mujahadeens“, the cuddly bearded fascists were invited to white house, made deals with the Unical? Oil company for the protection of the pipelines from central Asia. Pakistan gave the American war machine the air bases and supplies roots during the occupation of Afghanistan.
There are criminal elements and “freedom fighters” mixed up with the Raw, ISI,CIA, Massad and British secrete service , the Iranian, the Russian, the Tajik and may other Nato counties clandestine groups are involve in this mindless and unproductive war on the poor. Pakistani elites are using the people as sacrificial lambs and getting them killed by the trifurcate of Taliban, Nato/USA and Pak army.
This whole thing has become an ugly marketing tool for the American war machine to keep the fear in the hearts and minds of the Eurocentric and “freed black slaves“ , cowards the American human sheep.
Flogging the young girls for infidelity is condemnable, burning an empty girl school is barbaric but same young girl may let to live or eventually get the hell out of that area or even can get political asylum in the West, compare to the young girls flogged by hellfire missals and blown into bits by phosphors laden bombs and schools, wedding, and houses blown up by the Nato , the American and Pakistani forces is worse.
@babu fr anerica,can u tell me the names of culprits of 9/11.i asked many time.
ignore propaganda! ignore babu! hahahaha
@Adonis
And I agree with u on noone has right to enforce anything, I want to extend be it majority or minority where akham-e-elahi are clear. I agree Specially against force Sharia ala talibaan style. This is not sharia its fitna and should be dealt like severly. So we atleast agree on something. I guess after all the argument turn out we all want same thing. Wow could it be we differing on the ways to achieve this?
@Amir Hameed
agree with all ur suggestions. 100 – 110% hell 200%. Noone dun matter who they are supporting Alqaeda should be spared. Alqaeda is a fitna and should be eradicateed from the earth. Like I mentioned to adonis i guess we arguing abt ways to achieve all this. How abt we all stop calling each other names and make ur suggestions point we agree on as goals and then discuss the ways to achieve them? May be @m!n can take ur suggestions and open new thread so we can discuss these.
Finally we move forward.
@Jazoo
grave visiting ur right, not mazaar visiting. Graves real qabrastan whcih reminds u of death, not glittering shrines where ppl do shirk. And regarding ur qts temme instant where prophet (PBUH) force zakat temme incident where they refuse to pay noone denied paying in his time so its mute and Abu bakar action were base on Ayah of quran, where ALLAH commands (parphrasing) aur agar islam laaney ke baad yeh palat jain to in se jang karoo jab tak yeh palat ke na ajain aur namza qaim karain aur zakat ada karain. See zakat ada karain, that was the basis of Abu Bakar decision and all sahaba concurred it wasnt one man decision it was put in shoora and was consensus. Now u gona temme all of them were wrong?
Jizya and tawan are 2 diff things. Jizya is imposed on ppl of book living under islamic govt dun matter we fought them or not. In return they r exempt from military duty and they are guaranted religious freedom and Islamic govt is responsible for thuier safety and welfare. Tawan is what Iraq still paying to usa lol
woah what triggered off Madame Khamosh’s fit? she sounds REALLY REALLY ANGRY. i guess this blog and her alter ego TK on here is a very important and integral part of her life lol. she started this whole obsession with “beardos” in every post of hers, it was always the “beardos” who were responsible for every evil in the world, now when she got paid back in her own medicine, she is going into mad fits like the crazy b!tch that she is. we only see you foaming and frothing at the mouth madame khamosh. relax.
The condition will be deteriorated day by day unless and untill our government will not a sovereign and independent policy and stop asking dollars for blood. We cannot expect from our present regime and surely new leadership will emerge who will not bow before their masters.
Assalam o Allikum.
I am from swat. The Taliban love Pakistan but they are against the policies of the Pakistani government.
If the Pakistani government changes their policies every thing will be OK.
Wassalam.
@yaqubonnet
Which policies are you talking about?
tell us abt the people of Swat…do they want Shariah law or not?
Are they miserable with Taliban or not?
a short article
http://daily.urdupoint.com/todayColumn.php?column_id=7046&page1=1&page=1&writer_id=13&date1=2009-04-28
@Saeed Afzal
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/mlk/470/download.htm
Assalam o Allikum.
Dera brother pak.nukes
As our old generation have seen the justice system of Islam[Shariah Law], in the days when swat was a state, so nearly all the people of swat wants this system again. Shariah Law is our dream.
The Pakistani government policy, of acting as a front line state in the “war against the terrorism” [Which is actually the war against Muslims] is the reason of theTalibanaisation in Pakistan
Wassalam.
@yaqubonnet
I hope the Baboons respect what the people of Swat want to live peacefully.
Yes the War of Terror is not our war….
@GoTK
I don’t how you conclude that I don’t have my own opinion. What counts is that I KNOW that I am not a person who will agree on anything unless I really do it by heart. If that is the case with much of what @nota writes then I have no problems. Maybe you have not noticed, but a rare time I have had different view than nota. I need not to fear anybody. Just like you I also seek refuge behind a computer screen. Nobody knows me and if wanted I could do anything, but I refrain from that, because that would be a totally waste of time. So, I have no qualms when I agree with nota, and I have no inferiority complex towards ANYBODY – be it fairangi, non fairangi, nota or non-nota
If you go back and read one of many posts you will see that I have given my INDEPENDENT view about how I think we could mould a solution. Go back and see for yourself. If you cannot find the posts then I can help you.
Btw: I don’t claim that I am an Oracle, but in this case we have to be careful about the RIGHT decision. I think @Amir Hameed and I agree to a wide extent. I will give a reply to his post later!
A suggestion for you: Don’t find allies in @Gul, Kashif, Democrate, ClarionCall. They are NOT sincere with Pakistan. It’s just a suggestion. The decision will be yours. I sincerely believe that you are better than that!
@democrate
I have given you the names.
George tenet cia, dick cheney US Govt, Bush and so on
Now tell me thats the only question you have?
Also check out something interesting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm
Now have a courage to answer my questions.
@democrate you have asked the same question twice under two different topics and not many times and both the times I had answer you.
First of all Two times is not many times. Nice try to create wrong perception.
Now like a good kid asnwer my questions sent under IK topic How to clear this mess april24 10:01 pm . Or just answer the only one easy question.
Why building 7 of WTC collapsed in the evening of 9/11 while no plane have hitted that building? All eyes are on you so donot mess your chance.
@ opportunity you can help him too.
By the way Kashif is still looking for the plane that hitted the pentagon.
talal khan, jutt kharak and ghost of tk are somewhere and trying to answer my questions. They are on thinking leave.
@TK
Sorry did not read your whole rant but am glad you put in so much effort and came b!tching just as expected (mbo (“I am my own man”) had called for help so how can you not
“So, you finally muster up the courage to attack me directly”
You seem to have forgotten a lot. Your running away at least twice to your rabbit hole proves otherwise (As a example, what is it about “Other than that, good to know you’re still the same whiny, confused little bitch. Have fun little mimic.” that you find not being an attack on you directly?
“and you calling ME a skirt?”
Actually I called mbo a “skirty” but if the skirt fits, sure, do wear it. Just to be clear, I had referred to the tola as “chicken nuggets”
And thanks for reminding bme of the old Dylan favorite… certainly enjoyed it…
…Ah, you fake just like a woman, yes you do
You make love just like a woman, yes you do
Then you ache just like a woman
But you break just like a little girl.
“you’re either with TTP or against it”, right BushyTK?
Now fire away … again …. (sigh!)
Waive the starts and stripes, mbo and ilk, Mullen has threatened to use daisy-cutters if your leadership doesn’t act as ordered (while at the same time calling them unable to do so. So make sure you order the champagne, ’cause the daisy -cutters are gonna put up quite a show.
(Wonder what would be the take of our baboos and babbets — i mean Chicken Nuggets — to our very own Federal Minister for Science & Technology Azam Khan Swati who stated: US wants to break up Pakistan:
“Sell! Sell!!” they shouted in unison….
For those not link-challenged-when-it-suits-them, here is yet another view from US:
The Pakistan mess, courtesy of the vaunted U.S. foreign policy establishment
More on the cause for the much-celebrated actions by the army:
US officials ratchet up pressure on Pakistan over Taliban militants
@notamistri
haha….You have gone mad.
The excellent link from TK’s blog on Polemicists,
http://www.foucault.info/foucault/interview.html
Get a life old man. I got nothing to say to you and I ignore your tiresome, unintelligent and boring linkbombing. You have nothing intelligent to say, no arguments/counter arguments to present and no thesis to defend.
Do something positive, like joining the Taliborg in Swat, instead of linkbombing this website.
During the judiciary struggle, the national discourse was intellectual, constitutional and about ideas: Aitzaz Ahsan & co. vs. Ahmad Raza Kasuri, Hamid Khan vs. Farook Naik, A.A.Kurd vs. Babar Haiwan. The culture on pkpolitics too reflected that: a war of ideas and concepts.
Now, the national discourse is no more about ideas but who can outgun the other: Talitubbies vs. journalists, Talitubbies vs. Girls Schools, Talitubbies vs. lawyers and judges. And sadly, the culture on pkpolitics has started to reflect that too: asinine personal attacks, refusal to defend one’s position, rank vulgarity/offensiveness, ignorance and retarded linkbombing (thats you
)
Old farts like you are the cancerous parasites that are killing pkpolitics and the unique debate culture it once had during the Long March days. It was great while it lasted, but people like you have brought it down to the level of Youtube comments section. They also have videos and people post their comments.
I believe this article was written for you
Lastly,
@mbo
“Old farts like you are the cancerous parasites that are killing pkpolitics and the unique debate culture it once had during the Long March days. It was great while it lasted, but people like you have brought it down to the level of Youtube comments section. They also have videos and people post their comments.”
And yet you keep coming back for more. ‘Cause besides this, you have no identity/get your ego fed by @democrate and his ilk. You keep saying “MeiN rus gai aaN tay maiN chali aaN” but you keep coming back.
I think most would agree — baboos accepted of course — the only person who has brought down pkpolitics to “the level of Youtube comments section” is none other than your b!tchy little sis (who too btw has a habit of proclaiming “MeiN rous gai aaN tay maiN chali aaN” again and again and again)
@Amir Hameed
We are in full agreement about putting an end to the NATO collaboration. The problem is though still that Pakistan army has been interlinked as mercenary forces fighting for $$$$$$. Off course the USD are prescribed for the elite in the army and to some extent outsiders. What we need after these issues is to make some damage control i.e. convince the population of the area that they belong to Pakistan and their lives are as precious as anyone in the remaining part of Pakistan. Off course not the usual way, but in a true sense. I hope you will agree that this damage control will take some time.
I also agree that nobody should fight US from Pakistani soil. At least we should not facilitate such armed groups! The “fight” must be fought with intelligence and we also need to develop as a trustworthy member of the world community. We have failed in this process, because we have been too cooperative. The only reason has been the hunger for USD with NO caution about losing dignity. Sadly the nation has very little dignity in the eyes of the world. On contrary we see admiration on individualists. In which has the Pakistanis not excelled in when working out of the country?
I also agree that Taliban should NOT be allowed to roam around with arms and close schools, barbers shops, force people to grow beards etc. This MUST NOT be the case for only Talibans. We MUST disarmed all groups in Pakistan including MQM, armed wings of all parties (both political and religious parties). Nobody should be allowed to own firearms! We have to start disarming people from somewhere. I would recommend we start in our cities and move towards areas like SWAT etc. It will not be easy to disarm people in the cities, but in areas like SWAT it will be totally different task to achieve. These people have a very long history with firearms, and we should not expect quick solutions. I don’t doubt that the end result MUST be disarming them, but we must ensure that the people of the area are given enough time. One reason is the historical fact that these people has been left alone for six decades. Nobody bothered to develop the areas and hence the population continued to live like they have done always. The next BIG BLUNDER was that of Moshe i.e. to start the war on the orders of his masters from USA. And now we have an elected government, which is contradicting themselves from what they said before the elections and what they are doing now.
In other words Pakistan has a very long history of betraying their own people and we need a government, which is sincere towards ALL citizens of Pakistan. The government needs to develop trust.
“If SWATis want Nizam-e-Adl, which is not Shriah, then the government should conduct a consensus vote on it in those areas and if this is what the majority wants then so be it. I do not believe that it is simply left to the parliament to decide without a consensus vote from the people who will actually be in the middle of all this. The Parliament should debate on it in depth before passing it. The government should also ensure that under this Nizam-e-Adl, no one will be allowed to overthrow the writ of the government.”
The above mentioned (by you) will be an important factor in the trust building measures. It will be a step in the right direction i.e. LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE!
Re. the economy factor: I differ a bit with you about the economy. I think the day we get tough on USA, then most of the “help” will be in tatters. We will not receive much, and we will not be able to avoid a BIG down slide, BUT it is the only way forward if we want to survive as an INDEPENDENT and FREE nation!
People swear and do all kind of other stunts and can still get through with the posts, but why am I under moderation again (My post is awaiting moderation). As far as I know my post has no naughty words.
Maybe @dmin can look into the matter, otherwise I will be “forced” to consider him as “Idi Amin” instead of @dmin
@ nota
“And yet you keep coming back for more. ‘Cause besides this, you have no identity/get your ego fed by @democrate and his ilk. You keep saying “MeiN rus gai aaN tay maiN chali aaN” but you keep coming back.
I think most would agree — baboos accepted of course — the only person who has brought down pkpolitics to “the level of Youtube comments section” is none other than your b!tchy little sis (who too btw has a habit of proclaiming “MeiN rous gai aaN tay maiN chali aaN” again and again and again) ”
thats the funny thing, it was not a problem when they resorted to name-calling, personal attacks, dirty language, labelling people, but now that they have been christened as BABOOS they cant take it. you got it right, “MeiN rous gai aaN tay maiN chali aaN” perfectly defines the attitude of these two sisters at the moment…… and yet they refuse to leave….
@ Shirkuh
you’re right admin IS acting like Idi Amin these days towards us regular posters, i presume under pressure from certain baboos.
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