{ 18 comments... read them below or add one }

  • Avatar Image
    Adnan Arshad Mansoori said:

    Under the light of above mentioned analysis/comments I ask simple question to these Americans — when Pakistan was calling to Americans & the rest of the West in ‘71 why they did not pay attention for assistance against India, why not Fauji Generals who broke the constitution outrageously various time get punished in this country why not the corrupt politicians do not fall into the frame of Prevailed Laws, Only the burning issue is left for the West & rest of their Slaves is Sufi Muhammad’s Nizam e Adal i.e. the most Harmful for Pakistani Social Set Up?
    No Sir, these are their/the West only Ulterior Motives nothing else.

    Why American & rest of the West raise the Voice on afore-mentioned burning issues of this beloved country, if the West may not then leave us alone at once.

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    gv said:

    no intelligent observer objected to the text of the NAR

    the objection was to the government conceding defeat to a militant group

    if the same resolution had been passed using democratic (read public polls) means no one would have been able to object to the NAR

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    razakhan said:

    @gv
    Under constitution, Prez had sole authority to sign it. Which Zardari could have done, but he didn’t.

    NAR – Discussed endorsed by all political parties in NWFP except JI, the presented to Zardari, who after sitting on it for a long time, sent it to Parliment where all political parties endorsed it except MQM, who btw didnt vote against it simply abstained and their objection was that bill should be discussed not that NAR shouldn’t be implemented. So all political parties through representative parliment supported and endorsed nifaz-e-adl.
    From the day it was signed a roar has eruupted with argument being that govt ceded to gun. Within 13 days of NAR, govt has started operation, (though NWFP govt is not calling it operation, yet jets being used to bomb the area). So practically speaking NAR is done and dusted watever else it says on paper.

    By the arguments then it stands that govt made the mistake and in less then a week corrected the mistake, and as per all liberals, NGO, mqm and every analyst who demanded that instead of NAR govt should get rid of the talibaan now there shouldn’t be any objection at govt from anyone who stood against NAR. U guys got wat u demanded.

    We can say that govt couldn’t stand usa and west pressure and thus started the operation. But hey its ok they pay us to do these things. So beggers can’t be choosers.

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    Ghost Of TK said:

    The issue I had with the Nizam-e-Adl regulation’s implementation is a procedural one.

    There should have been more debate on it and various factions allowed to speak their minds in this regard.

    The thing is, the state and the ruling elite aka the kleptocracy is rotten to the core. “The State” has very little or no legitimacy . Justice system is broken down and so is the infrastructure, physical and psychological.

    In this climate, with a confused public, and a confused Army, what choice is there than to try to save face and concede to a militant group?

    The issue I have with NAR is that our religious parties, in a very irresponsible way, are legitimizing the actions of the talibs by saying things like “buner is part of Malakand”

    As the author pointed out, the legal authority in NAR is still the government (provincial and Federal) and no one has the right to go into new areas with mortars, anti-tank RPG’s and AA guns , and claim they are there “for tableegh”.

    The sick part is that parties like JI and JUI are looking the other way instead of condemning these violations of the N.A.R and the peace accord by the “Talib” Fighters.

    I would just like to point out that a large majority of these fighters are either criminal elements or illiterate non-religious tribes people.

    This is not the Ulema of Qom coming to lead the Iranian Revolution. This is more like Pol Pot and his band of murderers with very little understanding of ’socialism’ coming to take over Cambodia in the name of ‘communism/socialism’, except that the stand-in for cambodia in this case has got nukes and the price of failure (on part of us all, as the Pakistani nation) could be cataclysmic.

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    Ghost Of TK said:

    “The Issue I have with NAR” should read

    “The issue I have with NAR’s interpretation by the right”

    @razakhan:

    I tend to agree with your read of the mechanics of the approval process. My criticism is that it was done in indecent haste (and though it co-incides with MQM’s stance, doesn’t really mean Iv’e joined MQM).

    If the talib fighters had acceded to Sufi Mohammad, and had Sufi Mohd. not started on Bhutto-esque speeches from the git-go, we would be seeing a totally different evolution of the deal process.

    The fact is that this was the BIGGEST GAIN made by the religious right in terms of the culture wars that are waging in Pakistan.

    Instead of consolidating this monumental political/social victory, the talibs decided to walk right into the trap set for them by the establishment.

    Now, they have basically nullified the gains made by Sufi Muhammad and we’re back to square one. ANP gets the credit for Nizam-e-Adl regulations, and talibs get the blame for breaking the peace deal by moving into new areas and extending their reach thereby challenging state sovereignty and governmental writ (let us separate these two concepts from the general hatred that exists towards characters like Zardari, Rehman Malik , and our un just system of government)

    Acutally, had the swati talibs allowed NAR to proceed, and laid down their arms and abided by it in general, it would have given a chance to the people of Pakistan to see, for the very first time in its history, a working sharai system in action, under the auspices of the state.

    The thing is, the talib are as corrupt as those they fight. Neither wants a true justice system. Because if talib actions are challenged in Qazi courts and they decide against talibs, these people wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

    similarly, if this system were to succeed, our establishment/kleptablishment and ruling class’s interests would be in danger.

    So it is in the interest of both factions to start up the war again.

  • Avatar Image
    razakhan said:

    @Ghost Of TK

    I beg to differ from one point u made, that is regarding JI, as I have mentioned sir, JI was the only parrty who bycotted the conference on Nifaz-e-adl in the NWFP when ANP called for all party conference, we should give the due where its deserve. JI was never allied with Talibaan as they back haqqani and hikmatyaar in Afghanistan who as u r well aware are not and were never taliban. Thats why JI has problem with Taliban. JUI on the other hands runs all madrassas in Pak and as everyone keep pointing out taliban are products of that madrassas. I am just pointing a fact, no cricticism of u is intended.

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    Jamhooriat said:

    @razakhan

    Just off topic, but as now we have a spokespoerson of JI,so harm in asking a Q.

    Whats ur explanation about this action of MOFO Jamatias?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNRJ0PHcItI

    Wat happeded to people who were involved?
    Mind it, it was post Nov 3 action and exactly after one year o this incident, MoFo Jamatias again tortured University students and few were injured to their firing.

    R u also one these jamatias??

    Always loved one slogan of this clip,

    Mar gai kutti , lay jaoo mayyat
    hai jamiat, hai jamiat.

    this clips will tell u how much people love Jamatias.

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    razakhan said:

    @Jamhooriat

    I will answer u if u ask nicely, since u swear u dun deserve an answer and ur comments reflect very good on ur party PTI. glad u learning from MQM keep it up

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    Ghost Of TK said:

    @razakhan:

    while we’re at it…

    JI was the only parrty who bycotted the conference on Nifaz-e-adl in the NWFP when ANP called for all party conference, we should give the due where its deserve.

    1. are you asserting that Jamat Islami opposed Nizam-e-Adl Regulation from the Get Go? If so, when exactly did they start supporting it? Before it was presented to Parliament, during the presentation, or after it was approved.

    From what I recall, JI and JUI senators created a big scene in the Senate when the senators tried to discuss this issue. Reason they gave was that it was already approved. Sounds like the JI/JUI were together on this one in not letting the bill be discussed.

    Perhaps you can elaborate exactly what it is that JI should be credited with:

    Supporting the NAR
    Abstaining from the process and thereby jeopardizing the process (as you pointed out).

    JI was never allied with Talibaan as they back haqqani and hikmatyaar in Afghanistan who as u r well aware are not and were never taliban.

    That was 20 years ago. Then 10 years ago (if you’re talking about the Afghan Taliban)

    Haqqani and Hikmatyar are the brains behind the current insurgency against NATO and JI supports the Afghan Resistance Movement (as do I btw) against occupying NATO forces.

    So, would you say that JI, right now, support the Afghani Taliban, but NOT TTP ??

    If so, please look at the recent statements made by JI leaders because they are confusing to casual observers like me, they sound like statements of support to me. When they describe Army Action against TTP miscreants, they say things like “Apnoon par bumbari kar rahi hai”, “Apnoon say muzakirat karnay chahiyay”, “Apnay hi log to hai na” etc.

    Sadly, their criticism and advice is always directed towards the government. Never toward the talib miscreants.

    And when someone asks them to openly condemn terrorist actions by talibs against Pakistani civilians, they say, “condemnation say kia hoga?” … “condemn to kartay hi hai”…

    “lol”

    Thats why JI has problem with Taliban.

    Are you shure?

    JUI on the other hands runs all madrassas in Pak and as everyone keep pointing out taliban are products of that madrassas.

    Have to agree with you on this. JUI is knee deep in the jihadi bidnitzz. But keep in mind, JI and JUI were brothers in arm during the 5 MMA years, and they did strenghten a dictator, did help pass the 17th amendment (which they now vehemently oppose and are willing to topple a looli-langri democratic govt for)

    In general:

    JI and JUI also turned a blind eye during the “MMA years” (ANP’s pov and I concur) as the jihadi training camps and networks were extensively created, funded and consolidated in the FATA/PATA areas.

    Now the chicken are coming home to roost for the rest of Pakistani’s but JI and JUI know exactly what this fruit of their labours means. They think it means they’ll get power.

    I’m not so sure. Talibs contradicted JI and JUI after N.A.R … just imagine how they would deal with JI/JUI if they actually got control of Islamabad.

  • Avatar Image
    BABU FROM USA said:

    Nice topic with facts and not just crazy bla bla bla from the so called liberals.
    Now the question is when it will be fully implemented without any road bumps.

    And WHO WILL TRY TO SABOTAGE THIS AGREEMENT OR LET ME SAY WHO IS AGAINST IT. THEY WILL TRY EVERY MEAN TO DISTROY THIS PEACE DEAL.
    US has different laws in each state. Also different laws apply to native Americans (Red Indians) . Jo tum piyo tu haram ha jo hum piyaan tu halal ha. US double standards.

    Also the corrupt politicians or corrupt leaders will also try to destroy this peace deal so the NAR could not be implemented and they will be able to keep on doing corruption without any fear.

    I agree that flogging of that girl was wrong and IF and I mean IF it was done then Qazi should look into the matter and punish those who were behind it. And IF this video proved to be wrong then those who made this fake video should also be punished. IN ANYWAY JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED AND NO ONE SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW.

    NO JUSTICE NO PEACE
    JUSTICE FOR EVERYONE AND PEACE FOR EVERYONE.

  • Avatar Image
    listen said:

    @Ibrahim M Khalil

    what is this “(MS – London Business School)”….

    Dont you have a confidence on your writting that you need use these sorts of things…….

  • Avatar Image
    gv said:

    @razakhan

    raza sahib i didn’ t mean the rubber stamping of it by a compliant parliament i meant the demand to implement it made by a militant and violent force.

    but yes you are right.. the implementation of it for all sense and purposes was ‘democratic’

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    razakhan said:

    @Ghost Of TK

    Yaara when did i deny JI didn’t support Mushy by their action? I only said who in Pak didn’t support him name one party. JI earlier has supported zia by taking part in ghair jamatee intikhabat and being part of shura who can deny that? That ghair jamatee elections held by zia were only opposed by PPP cuz of personal animosity. Again all political parties were part of that majils-e-shura and took part in elections under zia. My objection was singnaling out JI, when is hammam main sab he nangey hain. Hope u understand now wat am saying.

    There is a huge difference btween JI and JUI. I offer the book Fitna-e-maududiyaat as an example. JUI and ulema have always been critical of JI and JI has been critical of them, they are not in brother in arms warna MMA qaim rehtee and would have been able to govern. Politically and idelogically they too different.

    In Afghanistan they always back Hikmatyaar and Rabbani and back Taliban in Afghan against Western aggerssion, as they back Hizbullah and hamas. But u know very well that idelogically Hikmatyaar, rabbani and haqqani are closer to JI. Same in Kashmir while they back all kashmiris, they are allied with Gilani sahib, instead of hurriyat as whole. I can take u back to old interviews by Qazi where several times they said TTP ways of implementing sharia are wrong, when sufi mohammad 1st came out and blocked the area it was JUI, JI and other Islamic scholors who went there and tried talking to him. Please bro lets be intellectually honest, no religious party has ever said they want the implementation of TTP islam or the way they doing it thats why all religious parties participate in elections even when they dun win votes.

    Diff is I dun like JUI and have never backed the, as for JI I will back thier stand, I dun think force will get rid of TTP or extremists, if we had gone agaisnt them as law and order instead of using military we could have succeeded. We have made the classical mistake of dealing with terrorist on war basis using military and that will bring endless cycle of violence. I could be wrong, JI could be wrong (won’t be 1st time for both of us, nor will be last time) but thats what we beleive that bombarding TTP wont solve the problem it will just increase the problem and thus will keep us fighting an insurgency inside pakistan.

    The govt and appeared almost all parties has decided that is the way, well majority rules so be it. But I and anyone else who disagree with that approach has a right to say so. I think its stupid and suicidal to deal with TTP like this, Mushy did it for last 8 yrs and now this govt been doing same since it came in power, suicide bombing increased violence increased, and our own pakistanis became refugees inside their own country. And dun matter how much force no army can completly kill every single talibaan or thier sympathizer and anyone who disagrees. I fear for civil war and may God has mercy on us.

  • Avatar Image
    Jehanzaib said:

    Irony is that we have hundred, thousands of people around us who support Swat Peace Accord or don’t support, without knowing what is Swat Peace Accord. Wonder! Why its like this

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    Ghost Of TK said:

    @razakhan: Hey thanks for the detailed answer. I’m inclined to agree with the gist of your post but I think that the mainstream ‘religious’ political parties are still not categorically differentiating between the TTP (and their heinous actions) and the people of the area.

    They lump action against TTP as action against ‘locals’ … well in a way it is true, these insurgents are mainly locals, but that doesn’t give them immunity from laws of Pakistan. Just like I’m not immune (techinically, on paper) from laws in Multan or Lahore.

    My grudge against JI (especially) is that it is not just a mere political party. It is supposed to represent the best Islam has to offer. And all I see is excuse to the effect that all others do it.

    I totally agree with you, “is hamam men sab nangay hain”, lekin huzoor, point yeh hai keh is hamam men Jamat-e-”Islami” hai hi kiyooN ?? :)

    you see what I’m saying? I’m just applying a much stricter morality to a political party which claims legitimacy and a right to rule and lead people based on the psychological essence of the Pakistani society: Islam.

    Please bro lets be intellectually honest, no religious party has ever said they want the implementation of TTP islam or the way they doing it thats why all religious parties participate in elections even when they dun win votes.

    true, they haven’t openly come out and said it, but they stop just short of it. I don’t have a problem if they identify exactly what it is that TTP wants … but they should at least categorically condemn the acts of TTP which they know to be wrong and detrimental to the existence of Pakistan. I mean, bombings, terrorist activities, killings, beheadings, intimidation of locals, imposition of some weird wahabbi sharia on barelvi majority areas etc.

    These things are completely ignored (maybe I’m wrong, plz correct me) even when pressed upon JI and JUI leadership. Imran Khan also uses the same kind of reasoning. Everytime they are asked to condemn these acts, they start talking about atrocities against the tribes people.

    Yes, that is true, the Army way of dealing with this is horrible, but does that mean these bombings can somehow be swept under the rug? Muslim killing Muslim? Why does Munawar Hasan see Foj killing “apnay hi log” but he turns away from “apnay hi log” killing innocent shia’s in an imam-bargah (shia sect and their ‘beliefs’ notwithstanding).

    if we had gone agaisnt them as law and order instead of using military we could have succeeded. We have made the classical mistake of dealing with terrorist on war basis using military and that will bring endless cycle of violence.

    I agree with this approach. I think it should have been a law & order and intelligence approach. With special ops forces taking care of the miscreants. I’m vehemently opposed to this BS howitzer bombing of mountains to show off to the Americans and the west that “we are doing something” … this is exactly the approach Musharraf used and his indiscriminate killing started this cycle of vengeance.

    But the thing is that somehow we need to disengage this, and now there is a lot more players involved (in my opinion) who do not want this bloodshed to stop. I strongly suspect foreign powers, but honestly I don’t know.

    All I know is whatever is happening is wrong. Talib criminals are NOT fighting some Jihad for supremacy of Islam, they are hollowing out the Pakistani state.

    We need to protect and rebuild the state but on more equal, popular, people friendly basis, and not hollow it out so that it is easy prey for its enemies.

    This is why when JI, JUI and PTI hesitate, and say things like “apnay hi admi hai”.. this really gets my goat. They should at least condemn the actions of taliban or at least say equivocally that suicide bombings, suicide trainings and suicider factories are wrong!

    Every time they are asked to categorically denounce these actions, they slip and slither away by making non-statements like: “condemnation say kuch nahi hoga… “condemnation to hai hi”… (these two are IK statements btw … very recent ones).

    I fear for civil war and may God has mercy on us.

    Well, what else can one expect when we have a deobandi/wahabi armed group, coming into a mostly barelvi area, locking up a mazar and the general impression is that wahabbi’s are out to take power in Pakistan.

    Do you think Barelvi and Shia and other maslak will allow this to happen? This advance in Buner was a bad mistake. It freaked out every single religious sect in Pakistan that a tiny minority of Wahabbi’s are out to take over Pakistan.

    So, the threat of civil war is real. We have to see who is precipitating it. who is propagating it and who is apologising for it. Pakistan will lose in the end.

    And I don’t think there will be any “Khilafah” or “Emirate” in Pakistan. Or maybe it will be. I guess time will tell.

  • Avatar Image
    mbokhari said:

    @razakhan
    @GoTK

    hey hey….what is this?

    I haven’t read the whole thread but what is going on? An actual debate? With actual understandable arguments? here?

    I daunT baleeeeef….

    Let me read it from the beginning….

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    razakhan said:

    @Ghost Of TK

    I agree with u, when maulana maududi decided to take part in elections the decision was wrong as time has proven again and again. JI should be held to a standard way above then any political party in Pak. Its becausse their manifest demands that. I proposed earlier, that JI should really stop taking part in any election process and go back to its rooots, i..e dawa and awareness, they should be educatiing the masses, holding workshops and providing the political workers training. These educateed engaged workers then can freely choose the political partiees they want and be better politicians and do good 4 country. Alas, qazi husain ahmed era has really damaged JI.

    I also agree with u on JI has to come out more forcefully to not only condemn but also to educate ppl that Taliban interpretation is wrong. Condemning is nothing if not backed by actions. i,e educate the masses and provide vigourous debates.

    But we have to remeember TTP is part of pakistan and they are pakistani. Same way MQM, all nationlaist parties. Jiye sindh movment or BLA did crimes, AL-zulfiqar did the same thing, we use law and order appproach and try to bring them in political process, those who refuse and show thier crimes should be dealt severly.

    I have mentioned b4 and am mentioning again, grab taliban leaders and use samee sharai court, and charge them with Fitna i.e anarachy and fasad. Punish them thee islamic way death by cutting limbs one by one till they bleed to death make it happpen in public in the tribal area and since we use sharia law u will see a chilling effeectts on ppl trtying to join TTP.

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    m.asif said:

    N A R is parallel judicial system & it is against the will of constitution . According to constitution no law can be made against Quran & Sunnah .so the current judicial system is working under constitution of Pakistan & NAR is ultra constitution.

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