I agree with u, when maulana maududi decided to take part in elections the decision was wrong as time has proven again and again. JI should be held to a standard way above then any political party in Pak. Its becausse their manifest demands that. I proposed earlier, that JI should really stop taking part in any election process and go back to its rooots, i..e dawa and awareness, they should be educatiing the masses, holding workshops and providing the political workers training. These educateed engaged workers then can freely choose the political partiees they want and be better politicians and do good 4 country. Alas, qazi husain ahmed era has really damaged JI.

I also agree with u on JI has to come out more forcefully to not only condemn but also to educate ppl that Taliban interpretation is wrong. Condemning is nothing if not backed by actions. i,e educate the masses and provide vigourous debates.

But we have to remeember TTP is part of pakistan and they are pakistani. Same way MQM, all nationlaist parties. Jiye sindh movment or BLA did crimes, AL-zulfiqar did the same thing, we use law and order appproach and try to bring them in political process, those who refuse and show thier crimes should be dealt severly.

I have mentioned b4 and am mentioning again, grab taliban leaders and use samee sharai court, and charge them with Fitna i.e anarachy and fasad. Punish them thee islamic way death by cutting limbs one by one till they bleed to death make it happpen in public in the tribal area and since we use sharia law u will see a chilling effeectts on ppl trtying to join TTP.

hey hey….what is this?

I haven’t read the whole thread but what is going on? An actual debate? With actual understandable arguments? here?

I daunT baleeeeef….

Let me read it from the beginning….

They lump action against TTP as action against ‘locals’ … well in a way it is true, these insurgents are mainly locals, but that doesn’t give them immunity from laws of Pakistan. Just like I’m not immune (techinically, on paper) from laws in Multan or Lahore.

My grudge against JI (especially) is that it is not just a mere political party. It is supposed to represent the best Islam has to offer. And all I see is excuse to the effect that all others do it.

I totally agree with you, “is hamam men sab nangay hain”, lekin huzoor, point yeh hai keh is hamam men Jamat-e-”Islami” hai hi kiyooN ??

you see what I’m saying? I’m just applying a much stricter morality to a political party which claims legitimacy and a right to rule and lead people based on the psychological essence of the Pakistani society: Islam.

Please bro lets be intellectually honest, no religious party has ever said they want the implementation of TTP islam or the way they doing it thats why all religious parties participate in elections even when they dun win votes.

true, they haven’t openly come out and said it, but they stop just short of it. I don’t have a problem if they identify exactly what it is that TTP wants … but they should at least categorically condemn the acts of TTP which they know to be wrong and detrimental to the existence of Pakistan. I mean, bombings, terrorist activities, killings, beheadings, intimidation of locals, imposition of some weird wahabbi sharia on barelvi majority areas etc.

These things are completely ignored (maybe I’m wrong, plz correct me) even when pressed upon JI and JUI leadership. Imran Khan also uses the same kind of reasoning. Everytime they are asked to condemn these acts, they start talking about atrocities against the tribes people.

Yes, that is true, the Army way of dealing with this is horrible, but does that mean these bombings can somehow be swept under the rug? Muslim killing Muslim? Why does Munawar Hasan see Foj killing “apnay hi log” but he turns away from “apnay hi log” killing innocent shia’s in an imam-bargah (shia sect and their ‘beliefs’ notwithstanding).

if we had gone agaisnt them as law and order instead of using military we could have succeeded. We have made the classical mistake of dealing with terrorist on war basis using military and that will bring endless cycle of violence.

I agree with this approach. I think it should have been a law & order and intelligence approach. With special ops forces taking care of the miscreants. I’m vehemently opposed to this BS howitzer bombing of mountains to show off to the Americans and the west that “we are doing something” … this is exactly the approach Musharraf used and his indiscriminate killing started this cycle of vengeance.

But the thing is that somehow we need to disengage this, and now there is a lot more players involved (in my opinion) who do not want this bloodshed to stop. I strongly suspect foreign powers, but honestly I don’t know.

All I know is whatever is happening is wrong. Talib criminals are NOT fighting some Jihad for supremacy of Islam, they are hollowing out the Pakistani state.

We need to protect and rebuild the state but on more equal, popular, people friendly basis, and not hollow it out so that it is easy prey for its enemies.

This is why when JI, JUI and PTI hesitate, and say things like “apnay hi admi hai”.. this really gets my goat. They should at least condemn the actions of taliban or at least say equivocally that suicide bombings, suicide trainings and suicider factories are wrong!

Every time they are asked to categorically denounce these actions, they slip and slither away by making non-statements like: “condemnation say kuch nahi hoga… “condemnation to hai hi”… (these two are IK statements btw … very recent ones).

I fear for civil war and may God has mercy on us.

Well, what else can one expect when we have a deobandi/wahabi armed group, coming into a mostly barelvi area, locking up a mazar and the general impression is that wahabbi’s are out to take power in Pakistan.

Do you think Barelvi and Shia and other maslak will allow this to happen? This advance in Buner was a bad mistake. It freaked out every single religious sect in Pakistan that a tiny minority of Wahabbi’s are out to take over Pakistan.

So, the threat of civil war is real. We have to see who is precipitating it. who is propagating it and who is apologising for it. Pakistan will lose in the end.

And I don’t think there will be any “Khilafah” or “Emirate” in Pakistan. Or maybe it will be. I guess time will tell.

Yaara when did i deny JI didn’t support Mushy by their action? I only said who in Pak didn’t support him name one party. JI earlier has supported zia by taking part in ghair jamatee intikhabat and being part of shura who can deny that? That ghair jamatee elections held by zia were only opposed by PPP cuz of personal animosity. Again all political parties were part of that majils-e-shura and took part in elections under zia. My objection was singnaling out JI, when is hammam main sab he nangey hain. Hope u understand now wat am saying.

There is a huge difference btween JI and JUI. I offer the book Fitna-e-maududiyaat as an example. JUI and ulema have always been critical of JI and JI has been critical of them, they are not in brother in arms warna MMA qaim rehtee and would have been able to govern. Politically and idelogically they too different.

In Afghanistan they always back Hikmatyaar and Rabbani and back Taliban in Afghan against Western aggerssion, as they back Hizbullah and hamas. But u know very well that idelogically Hikmatyaar, rabbani and haqqani are closer to JI. Same in Kashmir while they back all kashmiris, they are allied with Gilani sahib, instead of hurriyat as whole. I can take u back to old interviews by Qazi where several times they said TTP ways of implementing sharia are wrong, when sufi mohammad 1st came out and blocked the area it was JUI, JI and other Islamic scholors who went there and tried talking to him. Please bro lets be intellectually honest, no religious party has ever said they want the implementation of TTP islam or the way they doing it thats why all religious parties participate in elections even when they dun win votes.

Diff is I dun like JUI and have never backed the, as for JI I will back thier stand, I dun think force will get rid of TTP or extremists, if we had gone agaisnt them as law and order instead of using military we could have succeeded. We have made the classical mistake of dealing with terrorist on war basis using military and that will bring endless cycle of violence. I could be wrong, JI could be wrong (won’t be 1st time for both of us, nor will be last time) but thats what we beleive that bombarding TTP wont solve the problem it will just increase the problem and thus will keep us fighting an insurgency inside pakistan.

The govt and appeared almost all parties has decided that is the way, well majority rules so be it. But I and anyone else who disagree with that approach has a right to say so. I think its stupid and suicidal to deal with TTP like this, Mushy did it for last 8 yrs and now this govt been doing same since it came in power, suicide bombing increased violence increased, and our own pakistanis became refugees inside their own country. And dun matter how much force no army can completly kill every single talibaan or thier sympathizer and anyone who disagrees. I fear for civil war and may God has mercy on us.

raza sahib i didn’ t mean the rubber stamping of it by a compliant parliament i meant the demand to implement it made by a militant and violent force.

but yes you are right.. the implementation of it for all sense and purposes was ‘democratic’

what is this “(MS – London Business School)”….

Dont you have a confidence on your writting that you need use these sorts of things…….

And WHO WILL TRY TO SABOTAGE THIS AGREEMENT OR LET ME SAY WHO IS AGAINST IT. THEY WILL TRY EVERY MEAN TO DISTROY THIS PEACE DEAL.
US has different laws in each state. Also different laws apply to native Americans (Red Indians) . Jo tum piyo tu haram ha jo hum piyaan tu halal ha. US double standards.

Also the corrupt politicians or corrupt leaders will also try to destroy this peace deal so the NAR could not be implemented and they will be able to keep on doing corruption without any fear.

I agree that flogging of that girl was wrong and IF and I mean IF it was done then Qazi should look into the matter and punish those who were behind it. And IF this video proved to be wrong then those who made this fake video should also be punished. IN ANYWAY JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED AND NO ONE SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW.

NO JUSTICE NO PEACE
JUSTICE FOR EVERYONE AND PEACE FOR EVERYONE.

while we’re at it…

JI was the only parrty who bycotted the conference on Nifaz-e-adl in the NWFP when ANP called for all party conference, we should give the due where its deserve.

1. are you asserting that Jamat Islami opposed Nizam-e-Adl Regulation from the Get Go? If so, when exactly did they start supporting it? Before it was presented to Parliament, during the presentation, or after it was approved.

From what I recall, JI and JUI senators created a big scene in the Senate when the senators tried to discuss this issue. Reason they gave was that it was already approved. Sounds like the JI/JUI were together on this one in not letting the bill be discussed.

Perhaps you can elaborate exactly what it is that JI should be credited with:

Supporting the NAR
Abstaining from the process and thereby jeopardizing the process (as you pointed out).

JI was never allied with Talibaan as they back haqqani and hikmatyaar in Afghanistan who as u r well aware are not and were never taliban.

That was 20 years ago. Then 10 years ago (if you’re talking about the Afghan Taliban)

Haqqani and Hikmatyar are the brains behind the current insurgency against NATO and JI supports the Afghan Resistance Movement (as do I btw) against occupying NATO forces.

So, would you say that JI, right now, support the Afghani Taliban, but NOT TTP ??

If so, please look at the recent statements made by JI leaders because they are confusing to casual observers like me, they sound like statements of support to me. When they describe Army Action against TTP miscreants, they say things like “Apnoon par bumbari kar rahi hai”, “Apnoon say muzakirat karnay chahiyay”, “Apnay hi log to hai na” etc.

Sadly, their criticism and advice is always directed towards the government. Never toward the talib miscreants.

And when someone asks them to openly condemn terrorist actions by talibs against Pakistani civilians, they say, “condemnation say kia hoga?” … “condemn to kartay hi hai”…

“lol”

Thats why JI has problem with Taliban.

Are you shure?

JUI on the other hands runs all madrassas in Pak and as everyone keep pointing out taliban are products of that madrassas.

Have to agree with you on this. JUI is knee deep in the jihadi bidnitzz. But keep in mind, JI and JUI were brothers in arm during the 5 MMA years, and they did strenghten a dictator, did help pass the 17th amendment (which they now vehemently oppose and are willing to topple a looli-langri democratic govt for)

In general:

JI and JUI also turned a blind eye during the “MMA years” (ANP’s pov and I concur) as the jihadi training camps and networks were extensively created, funded and consolidated in the FATA/PATA areas.

Now the chicken are coming home to roost for the rest of Pakistani’s but JI and JUI know exactly what this fruit of their labours means. They think it means they’ll get power.

I’m not so sure. Talibs contradicted JI and JUI after N.A.R … just imagine how they would deal with JI/JUI if they actually got control of Islamabad.