Prime Minister of Pakistan Syed Yousaf Raza Gillani Addressed to Nation announcing Govt. policy to eliminate extremist elements causing disturbance in Swat.
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Admin sahib!!!
PM’s address should be put put as leading story becuase substance of speech is much important.PM officially calls army for operation in Malakand Division(important development).
(But according to my knowledge, army is in Swat since 2007 in Swat )
HUM YEH CHATAY HEIN, HUM YEH KARIEN GAY, WOH ZALIM LooG HAIN, YEH ISLAM NAHI HAI………………………..
I Simply ask to this PM is there any ===Remarkable Achievement=== till to-date which is in the account of PPP, what the hell they are doing with this nation for their last One year Rule?
I sincerely hope this time army will achieve its objectives and wipe these thugs out of this world. I cannot forgive these b****** for discrediting my religion, the same way the thugs of karachi have discredited my mother-tongue. I hope once army finishes tali off, they will concentrate to do the same to the thugs of the south.
@binary zero Our all workers are with Army in operation. KALI MATA.
This what KALI MATA said after Geelani’s speech, and right after Kali Mata send one of his “Gang troop” binary_zero (sitting @ nine-zero) to support operation in Malakand Division.
PTT is a fitna and needs to be rooted out. PTT is supported by India, USA, AFGH and other power – supply lines are from AFGH, we need to fix this ASAP for our own good; If we need to fight US – we should fight them by fighting PTT and beating them out of here. YES there would be human cost but its a war now, there would be civilian deaths and its going to be very harsh – we should be ready for that.
i seriously think JI is as same as MQM and their views are real threat to Pakistan as well – they’ve never been in power and when they were the Talibanisation spread in NWFP. They should be kept at an arm’s distance.
What an improvement in your speech. You got a faaltoo F grade in your last speech. Even though some people will dub this speech as a good script reading, I will still give it a B- with a potential of A- (next time)
Go Yusuf Raza, Go Jawano of Pak army, crush Taliban.
Problem is we forgot we are muslims… but rest of the world still precieves us as muslims… we have been doing these discussions for years… but the reality is when it comes to actions we become selfish… My point is these leaders represent us… the reason zardari is corrupt is because we, the individuals in pakistan, are corrupt… and no one can change our situation unless we do it for ourselves…
it is quite obvious that we are slave nation… we cant even make our own decisions…. zardari goes to washington… millitary starts offense in swat…its just a shame on all of us… regardless of our ethnicity… either pathan, muhajir, behari, panjabi, kashmiri etc…. We are on the path of destruction for ourselves…. use of force may be benificial for americans but not for pakistanis… we cant change our neighbours… these white KKK klan will pack their bags and leave… it is us me and you, who probbly think they are now westerners by getting passports, will suffer… People need to come out on streets like Chife justice case…. and get rid of this slavery…
Gilani is a puppet rubber stamp. We should all stand with pak army no mater what any political party says. we should support army. army zindabad. check the speech at 09:30 min. he does not know what he is saying. His speech is traditional. It is ok to address the nation at this point but as usual ppp govt can not refrain from begging international communities as he has done in the last minute of the speech. I dont know when our leaders will teach the nation to stand on its feet. shame on ppp
Though came late.. came right. No army operation can succeed without support of civilians. And I think there is sufficient support available now.. and political will as well on the part of the main steam political parties of Pakistan for the operation. Nevertheless, the PM’s speech has now indicated any strategy to deal with the influx of people leaving Swat… it will be a real test besides operation. It needs the same level of charity and attachment from the people of pakistan as they have shown after earthquake in 2005.
ullo ke pathay… computer pe bhaith ke human cost aisey baat kerta hai jessa chachay ki dukaan pe cholon ki cost hi …. shame on you… idiot thinking…. shows your ignorance…
abhi zardari order lai kar aya hai aur abh baita explanation dai raha hai. its a shame to keep such a slave army. lanat amerikee order per chalnay wali ghulam fauji per. i bet, agar qadri padri maulvi bhi sharea lai kar aye aur mohaida karay tay america wahan bhi phoch jaye ga.
I really don’t know if taliban have violated the peace accord, because I haven’t been watching news lately. but if they have, then I support a full-fledged operation against them, but if they haven’t then shame on this lanti blood thirsty ppp government.
I just hope whatever happens, happens for Good.
May Peace prevail in Swat…AMIN
Long live Pakistani army. I pray it successsfuly eliminates the millitants. These millitants/terrorists have been sponsored by CIA and RAW and sent into our country to create chaos. Every patriotic pakistani should stand with the army and help in eliminating these militants. Onething should be clear they’re not jehadis(they’re posing as one), they’re CIA sponsored terrorists.
“More Bloood. More Killing of Our Own People. More Refugees. More hatred. More Suicide Bombings.
@ Thank You Na Pak Army And Gaddar PPP”
the next time you have the urge to spew such nonsensical and clearly low intelligence garbage, make sure you remind yourself that being ignorant is nothing to proud of, and hence you do not have to advertise it to the world. i will not reply to your idiotic argument, and will not say anything to your unpatriotic comments about the pakistan army. get in touch with reality and then come back and post.
just 1 billion ruppees for a million internally displaced people !?!
thats a thousand ruppees per individual for god knows how long a period of displacement. And employment only for those who have had a family member killed by miltants..what about those who have been killed by artillery shelling and aerial bombardments ?
Please do keep in mind that the Talibs who are opposing are sons of the soil- meaning they are (99 % of them) Pushtoons.
Do you Know the mindset of a Pushtoon ?
If not here is a little info you might find of help-
These Talibs are poor young men who( rightly or wrongly ) believe in their own ” ISLAMIC “point of view . They are tribal people. They do not forget and they do not forgive . They are brave beyond what you can imagine and they are not afraid to die . War and fighting to them is a great sport and each one of them is a born tcatician and strategist.
The Pakistan Army is a well organised force with advanced equipment, gunships , artillery , tanks etc etc . But they do not have the MORAL that the Talibs do and they lack the motivation to fight and kill those that they consider their own people.
Plus the army has the added burden that they are an army of mercenaries fighting to advance the interests of the USA.
If all of you supporters of this move still do not get the idea as to what gutless Gilani has put the country in – PLEASE do look at the following comment-
The USA with all it’s technical and military superiority has tried to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan in the last 9 years and to-day the Taliban control 77 % of Afghanistan- what makes you think that the much less well equipped Pakistan Army will not have the same result after the next 10 years with results that would be unpleasent to say the least.
My advice to you all – Open your eyes and see what is coming and who you are up against.
And please try to rise above your capabilties as writers and pray not use foul language to hide behind.
@shimatoree,these taliban are coward,they handed over kabul to american forces with out firing a single bullet,now they cannt fight against american army,so they started to fight thier own army, i mean pak army bc they know they have many supporters in pakistan ,they will save them fr pak army.now game is over.just 6 more months,there will be no taliban.
Quote- “these taliban are coward,they handed over kabul to american forces with out firing a single bullet,now they cannt fight against american army ”
You should ask the Americans about the validity of your statement. They will disagree with your comment since they are still there and are now increasing their armed forces to try to control the situation.
It appears to me that understanding the very basic knowledge of strategy and tactics is an anthema to you.
I am a pushtun Mr. Shimatoree and I fully support wiping the taliban DNA out from Pakistan. My family in the NWFP has been living in fear since these people have taken over. You say that these Talibans will take revenge but you forget that the local people, specially from Swat and Buner will take their revenge from the Taliban as soon as they get a chance. The Talibans have killed and beheaded many innocent people and now its payback time.
Have you seen what they have done in Kurram agency? its absoluteley atrocious that such activities were aloud to happen. But as they say better late then never. This time all the Pakistani people (except Taliban lovers like shimatoree) are united and we FULLY SUPPORT our troops who have put their lives at risk for us.
LONG LIVE THE PAKISTANI ARMED FORCES- DOWN WITH TALIBAN – PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
da talibano beghairato da mor kussan oghaiyema – dui pa kunay key ba ous danday warkoma. Baitullah Masud, Fazlullah aao sufi – tol ba pa kus teregi
@YUSAFKHAN,well write sir,.tide is turning.i feel more secure now than before.now oridnary people are starting to understand how bad talibinasation is.
I really appreciate sacrifices being made by our security forces specially FC, we all as a nation owe a lot to those nice young men and the their families who gave lives for this land, they deserve all and all respect, lets not ridicule their utmost sacrifices with filthy comments like “na pak army”. I’m sure most of commentators are not even living in Pakistan and using such a malign language for those who on front line.
Hamid Mir was one of the most vocal supporters of talibans in media, here is what he thinks now, but if people are willing to think beyond their whims and fantasies.
Please do keep in mind that the Talibs who are opposing are sons of the soil- meaning they are (99 % of them) Pushtoons.
Don’t forget that victims of these Taliban are also sons of the soil. You have a lot of pain for those who are slitting throats, burning schools, bombing every facility meant for those real sons of soil.
Who are you? You call yourself Pakhtun, don’t you see what these animals are doing to Pakhtuns. Do you have a stone instead of a heart that you can’t feel the pain of these Swati people?
Do you Know the mindset of a Pushtoon ?
Do you?
Is it only Taliban who are Pakhtuns, what about a common Swati people? Who are they? Are they not Pakhtun?
Please don’t sell the crap that they love these Taliban, blah blah…..I have talked to many Swatis and know how much they hate these animals. You know that too.
If not here is a little info you might find of help-
Enough crap, every body on this forum know very well that these animals are next to ANGELS, huh…..
The Pakistan Army is a well organised force with advanced equipment, gunships , artillery , tanks etc etc . But they do not have the MORAL that the Talibs do and they lack the motivation to fight and kill those that they consider their own people.
What MORAL do Taliban have, would you like to enlighten us please?
Oh ya I got it now, you are talking about the landmines planted by Taliban in the populated areas of Swat so that they can stop the people from leaving their homes and use women and children as human shields against the military operation.
Plus the army has the added burden that they are an army of mercenaries fighting to advance the interests of the USA.
That is only thing you’ll be able sell here, cheers.
The USA with all it’s technical and military superiority has tried to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan in the last 9 years and to-day the Taliban control 77 % of Afghanistan.
I believe that Swat is the part of Pakistan not Afghanistan. Here so-called Taliban are killing sons of the soil not Americans.
PESHAWAR: Shop owner Saeed Khan has already buried one child killed in fighting between the Taliban and government forces in northwest Pakistan. He cannot bear to lose another, AFP reports.
So the 50-year-old bundled his wife, son and daughter onto a bus in the Taliban-infested town of Mingora in the Swat valley and hurried to the city of Peshawar, hoping for a future free from further bloodshed.
‘I lost my son, who was a police officer in Swat, in a suicide attack in Mingora early this year. I buried him in front of my house,’ Khan told AFP, tears rolling down his cheeks.
‘I don’t want to dig graves for my daughter and son in Mingora. That is why I left the area… His death broke me. Tell me where should I go and from whom should I seek justice?’
Local officials say more than 40,000 men, women and children have packed up and fled Mingora since Tuesday, fearing that Pakistan’s military could unleash a fresh ground and air assault against Taliban fighters.
The bedraggled refugees, some leading goats and cattle through the streets, are seeking safety for their loved ones, as the Taliban claimed to control 90 per cent of the former ski resort and tourist getaway, once favoured by Westerners.
‘I am immediately leaving the city with my wife, mother and four kids,’ said taxi driver Ali Rehman, 46.
‘I don’t really know my destination and destiny. My family and I need protection.’
At the bus stop in Peshawar — the capital of the North West Frontier Province — exhausted and anxious people told stories of horror as they poured out of vehicles carrying old bags, blankets and bundles of clothes.
Zarina Begum, 40, pleaded for help as she staggered off a bus.
‘A mortar hit my house and as a result, I lost one of my eyes. Please take me to hospital, I want medical treatment,’ Zarina begged.
‘They (Taliban) killed my husband, they slit his throat after accusing him of spying… I escaped Swat because I don’t want my son to be killed under the same circumstances. I don’t want to receive his decapitated body.’
@shimatoree
Not only talibans but these people are Pashtun too, only these deserve sympathies, not those vampires as one of the displaced person described them.
The government had hoped that a peace deal agree in February would placate hardliners trying to impose a repressive brand of Islam, but instead the deal appears to be in tatters.
Clashes have flared in recent days throughout Swat, where wealthy Pakistanis and foreigners used to enjoy the breathtaking mountain scenery from plush hilltop hideaways, or cruise down the ski slopes.
Now, gunfire rings out in Mingora, where armed Taliban patrol the streets.
‘I’m really scared of going to Swat. Whenever I see Taliban, they look like vampires,’ said 25-year-old shop keeper Salman Mujtaba, who lost family members in a suicide attack near Mingora.
‘I will never ever go back to Swat. It has lost its beauty.’
@shimatoree,hiding in jangles,mountains and caves,night time shooting on allied forces killing few marines,this is not bravery.taliban are already defeated entity.now three most concerned countries are getting united,people are getting against taliban,this time they will be wiped out completely.so far pak army gave them very concesions and time to mend their ways but they dont have brain,they started to have fantasies to rule pakistan,stupid taliban,i feel sorry for them too.they are ignorant.but one thing i have to admit these ignorant taliban made a lot of educated people fool for long time.
it might be better if you stop acting like a politician and offering slogans. Let us try to be rational and logical-
1. The comments made about the planned war between the Army and Talibs are specific to those two parties. Yes the Pushtoons in Swat and other places are getting hurt. That always happens when two elephants fight- the grass suffers . My purpose is an analysis of the military situation and it’s political repercussions which for sure will be coming. As a Pushtoon whose own family members are in the army fighting against the Talibs- I do know a little bit and therefore I do not need to hide behind foul words like CRAP etc.
2. The Morale of the Talibs-( regardless of the morality of their stance) is , has been and will remain very high. They are a military force to be reckoned with and I will predict that it will be very difficult to defeat them. They ARE very sharp politically and they are learning as they go along. The Army accepts that and knows that.
3. The displaced people of Swat do not love the Talibs-( yet) but already in the refugee camps- there are rumblings that the people left because of the bombardment by the army and airforce. Now that might be just Taliban propaganda but it is there.
4. You DID not make any logical comment on the failiur of the Americans in Afghanistan for the last 9 years .
The reason the Pakistan Army will fail has to do with military tactics, physical geography of the region and the mobility and supply lines of the Talibs.
They are a light infantry , familiar with the terrain, can live of the soil and can disappear into the difficult areas without any problems. Their leadership is in small independent units organized in cells. The Pakistan army is a large bureaucracy with central decision making without which no one can move or do anything .
5. In a tactical sense it is total mismatch. A very mobile light infantry against a well heavily equipped army. If you know or have read about warfare – you would understand.
6. To call the Talibs animals might make you feel better .
Or are you calling them animals so you can justify killing them ? Thsi slogan of yours is not original – Adolph Hitler and many others have used it to justify killing other people.
But your comment does nothing towards clarifying the situation that Gilani has created by making his speech.
The Talibs are anything but animals . They are very smart-
( intelligent) and politically very clever and in their own way very efficient .
Just look at the situation in Swat – they made the politicians agree to the enforcement of Sharia and are still holding Mingora, Kohistan, Shangla, Alpuray etc etc.
And last of all they have the luxury and flexibility of movement and concept in military terms.
If you attack them in Swat- they will go somewhere else. If you attack them somewhere else- they move some where else.
So if you can think with a cool mind- what are you going to do when they appear in Southern Punjab or in Karachi or anywhere else.
And how many are you willing to kill.
And what will you do with the many more that will be coming after that.
THINK. Do not just use foul language to sooth your agitated and afraid soul.
perhaps you would like call it something else-( other than bravery).Their adversaries-( The Americans) would disagree with you vehemently and they have the 9 years of experience to support their point of view. What do you have other than your wishes and whims !
As a person who has been under bombardment by planes and artillery- as person whose relatives have been kidnapped for ransom- as a person who has seen and treated battlefield casualties- as a person whose close relatives are in the army fighting the Talibs-I know a little about what bravery is.
To face overwhelming odds and still go on and not give up- that is bravery which is difficult for SHOP KEEPERS to understand.
William Henley said-
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbow’d.
I know it is difficult for you to fathom stuff like this but
fortitude in the face of adversity is bravery.
If you cannot see the mountain in front of your eyes- then the obvious conclusion is that either you cannot see or you do not wish to see.
@shimatoree,
I have not seen PM’s speech but I think I got the gist of it. So, while you are analyzing the aftermath of his actions, you should also try to answer some important questions:
- Who is supporting these Talibans?
- Where are they getting all the money from? I mean you have mentioned that these are poor people, so how are they being fed, clothed and all that then?
- Where are they getting all the ammunition from to fight a trained army? I mean, I am not going to believe a bit on the Taliban’s spokesperson that the amu was stolen from the Pakistani army because based on the amount of amu these people have, that is just not a true statement.
- If these people are so politically savvy then why did they make such a huge political blunder by a) advancing towards and capturing Buner; what was the real motive behind that? b) openly threatening the parliament members before the bill was presented c) started labeling everyone “Kaffir” and …. Because I would not expect all these obvious blunders from politically savvy people as you have tried to portray them.
US House panel approves $95.6bn war funding
“…The bill, approved by voice vote, will fund the war costs through Sept 30 and also provide $1.4 billion in economic and security aid to Pakistan…”
Contradictions apart, we will have to stand by the Army and Govt Of Pakistan.
Army is doing a great work by removing these radical elements from the soil of our beloved Country which will not be hijacked from the bunch of Extremists.
I have serious reservations regarding massive military operation . I know some guys will label me as Taliban supporter which is the case with (Late) Mr. Bush when he introduced “either you are with us or with our enemy”:
1. The timing of the operation is very important because our President in in U.S and Carry/ Lugar bill is in Congress. How we can avoid the lable of mercenary army.
2. What about the human crises which is emerging and it could be one of the worst human crises in Pakistan. Suppose if 01 million people are displaced and PM announced 01 billion aid (100 rs per person) what a joke. No jobs / no shelters and no proper food and no long lasting solution.
3. We can avoid collateral damage if we give ultimatum so that people may leave the sensitive areas. Some may argue that the operation should be a surprise one but I do not agree with this notion because their (Taliban) intelligence is stronger than our army and they can easilty use human shield in the prevailing circumstances.
4. The most important point is that the problem is not a simple one and thing are not in black and white. Taliban consists of many groups i.e some locals, criminals, agents and some sincere with the cause (right or wrong). Taliban still has their roots in common people because of the injustice made to the masses for the last many many years and they are giving them speedy justice (right or wrong) and some people are benefiting from it.
It will be a better excercise if governement may not take this decision in haste and give time to expose so called Taliban (Swati) because it was most important to call a national conference on the issues and the government rightly announced but backtracked on foreign intervention (may be). It was needed that we should fully isolate them. Now what message goes to the people in Pakistan. The news of Drones flying over Malakand Division served what purpose.
Our national leadership should come forward and visit the displaced people to show solidarity with them so that they may not feel isolated. I salute Imran Khan who took the initiative to visit them.
Politicaly strategy was must before military operation and I am sorry to say that is not the case and this will happend if we will not take our decisions at our own. God forbid in 1971 almost the same situation occured when only few people were against military operation in East Pakistan and what happened…… because there was no political strategy and army only know firing and bombing and bombs do not recognize civilian and terrorists. Has the government planned to tackle the back lash of civilian casualities. What about the killing of son of Sufi Muhammad (and what about its backlash when operation is halted).
Since Altaf Kalia/Kali Mata is praising Pak Army, every patriot Paki must oppose and criticise Pak Army !
Since USA giving aid to crush Talibans, every patriot Paki must support Talibans (who don’t honour their promises, who behead innocent people, who dig graves of their opponents and hang dead bodies with poles, who destroys schools, who treat women as their property, who destroys tombs, who mercilessly kill innocent civilians by suicide bombings ) !
Since whole world including our neighbours India, Afghanistan, China and Iran are critical of our in-action to curb militancy and extremism, all patriot Pakistanis must unite against the world which actually wants to destroy nukes of Pakistan !
I do not understand your username. Any way I could not understand your point of view. We should be specific and give our opinion on case to case basis without any biased approach. If we condemn Taliban for their actions we should also condemn the barbaric approach of U.S and allieds. Who gave them right to bomb any where in the world. Taliban in AFghanistan are fighting for their country but in Pakistan they are fighting against their own country and we should have a different approach to tackle with each of them.
Cogito Ergo Sum (Latin) = I Think therefore I am !
“Any way I could not understand your point of view” >>> thanks for your understanding
“We should be specific and give our opinion on case to case basis without any biased approach. ” >>> Did I really sound biased ?
“If we condemn Taliban for their actions we should also condemn the barbaric approach of U.S and allieds” >>> Did I really praise US for killing innocent Afghans or Pakistanis ?
“Taliban in AFghanistan are fighting for their country” >>> I really don’t think so, Talibans were created by CIA+ISI to serve American interests. Now Talibans want to re-capture Afghanistan which they haven’t done in eight years and I don’t think they are capable of capturing Kabul through barrel of gun. Taliban beasts are cowards they can only ambush or send suicide bombers to kill their enemies !
Simply, superb conversation. It is frustrating that you have to keep stating the obvious to counter all the nonsense out there.
@dildar: I am totally with you.
There has been this myth of the invincibility of Talibs put out there ad nauseum, with the backup logic being that 9/10 years of fighting with the mighty U.S. army in Afghanistan has not borne fruit. Then there is the fallacious argument of Pak army not being able to do anything about them for all this time.
These arguments make me laugh! Everybody knows, including those who present these arguments, the reason Talibs were not crushed in Afghanistan is that a huge chunk of aid flowing into Pak to kill the scum was actually being used to support them by elements within the ISI, the Army, and the Civilian beauracracy. There never has been an honest fight between ‘us’ and ‘them’!
It is laughable to present the disunity, treason and/or stupidity of the forces fighting the Taliban as the might, valour, moral superiority or agility of the Taliban.
So it’s complete hogwash to say the Talibs are undefeated as yet because of their higher moral argument, their ‘light infantry tactileness’ versus a heavy elephant like properties of the Pak Army.
Just yesterday I spoke to a man from Hangu, and he told of a ‘talib’ with long hair being killed in battle, and when his body was recovered the army identified him as a junior ranked officer.
The other thing as you know is the fear factor. This man from Hangu while discussing the situation with a friend from Waziristan asked him, ‘look man, why don’t you guys just kill Baitullah yourselves?’ And the reply? The Waziristan chap told him that we can’t even take his name for fear in the area, leave alone collaborate to kill.
So yes, treat this myth of the Taliban’s invincibility for the hogwash it is. These animals can be wiped out once public opinion is solid across the board against them. Once the Army goes after them the way it should. And the sources of their funding need clipping.
@nota
Oh no…I forgot that Talibs are not allowed to watch female tennis players wearing shorts and skorts…..Tauba Astaghfar….we can watch gulli dunda such games are for baboons only.
Awesome decision F**K TALIBANS….Loving Pakistan makes a person true Momin and Muslim…Standing against Pakistan makes you Kafir….Nuke those fucking fake Mullas and Nuke Afghanistan too.
simple principle from Musharaf to zardari begh.irat to deal with US!!!!
Paisa loooo aur kammm vikhaoo. ohhhh nooo NGOs are also doing the same shitttttttt-”Paisa loooo aur kammm vikhaoo” So my dear government, “you have no way” other than continue “US war against Pashtoon” on our own soil. Shame for everyone who are supporting this war!!!!!!!
It seems Pakiland will have to go through civil war to clean up the dead wood and under brush and spark to set up the inferno has been set. Now time will tell how the Banana Republic without Bananas will turn out…
I can’t believe how stupid this so called Prime Minister of Pakiland looked reading the whatever was on the paper and then in the end changed the into English for Big O! Haven’t the American Masters given them teleprompter to keep it somewhat professional….
When the Pakiland people will stop their leaders from whoring to Americans Zionists?
1,5 Billion Dollar aid amounts to less than Rs2 per Paki per day I think a beggar will not take that……Just think or you guys have no brains…
Your guy have no shame…..Your thuggish Prez is here selling himself for that …
@jojo
“CHOTA LAHORE: ‘I want to pick up a gun and fight the Taliban and the army,’ says shocked Said Quraysh, shaking with rage as he erects a tent in a camp for civilians fleeing Pakistan’s fighting.”…
But Bambi is so happy
@Ray Meem
After reading Gilbo and Co orgy above, are you still wondering???
Why is Paki Govt. not honouring agreement with Hazart Moulana Sufi ?, whereas Talibans were honouring the agreement by capturing Buner, Shangla and Dir !
Why Pak Army has started operation against innocent Talibans, their minor crimes were only suicide bombings in which a few hundred insects were killed, they blew only 200+ schools of girls so that girls can have long vacations, they only beheaded a few dozens people so that they can book their place in Paradise !
WTF were those were very big crimes to invite wrath of Army ???
Pakistani nation is against operation in Swat, except traitors such as
PPP —- Damn this is the largest political party of Pakistan
ANP —- Shiiiiit , it got majority of votes in last general elections
MQM —- WTF, Altaf Kalia’s party —- alas, this is the second largest political party of Sind
Sunni Tehreek —– Fvck, they are sectarian, but alas they’ve got sympathies in Sindh and rural Punjab
PML-N —– You too Brutus
I feel that this time military action, like previous in Swat, will also give no results as the civilian casualities will charge the locals against the Army again. I still remember that in early 2008 Kiyani clamied to wipe out all the Talibs in a few weeks time, which was just a day dreaming.
Our Army don’t have laser range finders fitted on UAVs to assist the out dated altilery, which in the end is causing more damage to Civilians than to Talibs. The only affective system left is Cobra gunship helicopter, which also requires ground intelligence for exact targets.
Both Govt. and Sufi should be answerable to these war torn poor poeople. Govt., being a big brother, should have shown greater tolerance and sincereity.
For Sufi every one is wrong and he is the only right person. He seems to be an ineffective person to control the Talibs or he is just a shrewd person who took an opportunity to become popular.
Whole Pakistani nation is opposing military operation against innocent Talibans except those “WHOLE FOUR old goats ” and some traitor political parties such as
PPP —- Damn this is the largest political party of Pakistan
ANP —- Shiiiiit , it got majority of votes in last general elections
MQM —- WTF, Altaf Kalia’s party —- alas, this is the second largest political party of Sind
Sunni Tehreek —– – Ooops they are sectarian, but alas they’ve got sympathies in Sindh and rural Punjab
PML-N —– You too Brutus !
Whole Pakistani nation is with Moulana Imran Khan and Moulana Munawwar Hassan as these are the true n patriot Pakistani leaders !
We should demand IK be made PM and MH be made President of Pakistan w/o wasting billions on elections !
They have got the guts to stop drone attacks, and I hope they’ll conquer India too !
Duu Ropay ki rooti
Teen Ropay ka naan
Imran Khan Imran Khan !
Lets hope the nation can unite to support the military for a quick operation and emphasis is geared more towards getting back things to normalcy. Now having said that, it soo unfortunate, to have any sympathy for this govt…………..AZ goes to the US, treated like junglee khutta desperate to look for a bone thrown at him from the US. What sad times for our nation, we are treated in the category of Afghanistan, this itself says how we have failed and gone down in the last 62 years as a country.
Amazing…….the president goes there, says not a word about Drone attacks, which incidently has killed over 700 innocent people. The bekhari nation as we have become, can we not even ask for compensation from the Americans for this loss of life? Seriously, I cant think of any other country in the world, where someone comes and bombs your people, and the govt says not a word in fact goes to kiss their very asses without even raising some of the important issues the Americans have compounded us with. The reality this trip by AZ and his loser pack was nothing more than to reinforce and plead the Americans for survival of their government.
A million plus people displaced, wow, we truly have become like Afghanistan when the Soviets invaded, anyways, these are the times and my question is that are any of the political parties involving themshelves for some humanitarian services i.e. deploying their party workers to raise money and help for these innocent people? All the smuck politicians love to come and talk BS on tv, what are they doing to motivate their party supporters to play a proactive role for charity raising, social support etc? Ironically, not a single TV channel has shown any information where one can atleast donate money for use towards the well being of these people. Afterall these are also Pakistanis………………..
P.S. If anyone knows of any charity where one can make donations for usage of funds towards the IDP, please advise.
hmmmmz so lets see army been wiping out these talibaan since wat 2003 now? and oops they keep failing. Remind me of american terrorism in Iraq every few months they kill Al-qaeda #2 even jon stewart had to crack a joke abt that.
The funniest part is halbrook in congress admitted that Zardari has assured him that the nifaz-e-adl was doomed when he signed it and he is pleased to see that Army now taking action.
Dollars lo aur maroo apney logoon ko — Carry on govt abhi jab apki writ yahan qayam hojaey to bata dijiye ga, karachi jaisey mahaan peace loving baqool haroon rasheed mulk ki behtreen political party mqm ke shehar main bhi writ qaim hogee:p
“Just because majority are sinners, sin does not loose it’s status. ” >>> LOL only Talibans and their supporters are pious and all others are sinners !!
“that are any of the political parties involving themshelves for some humanitarian services i.e. deploying their party workers to raise money and help for these innocent people? ” >>>>> WTF, Altaf Kalia’s party sent humanitarian aid to IDPs
Thanks for the update…………I have to confess than that they have done the right thing (personally I cant stand Altaf Hussain and serious issues with how MQM has operated) but credit goes to MQM to take lead unlike the rest. It seems MQM plays smartly and times things well……………..I hope other parties would do the same.
@razakhan
“hmmmmz so lets see army been wiping out these talibaan since wat 2003 now?”
Actually the army and their bosses have been “wiping out these talibaan” since October 7, 2001 (not counting the cruise missile attacks and sanctions before that). It was on May 01, 2003 that Bush declared “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq as well (the op in Afghanistan was supposedly completed way before then)
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument to the person”, “argument against the person”) consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.
Quote “good point re: taliban’s tactical advantage.. but do you think that the only way forward is ‘muzakiraat’ ? ”
In my view there is only one way- and that is legitimacy and thus credibility. Now let us examine what we have here-
1. PPP has lost any credibility if it ever had any once it became a tool of the Americans through the NRO, then BB’s death , then of all things Zardari becoming a president through back room politics-( inspite of the shrill protestations of their supporters).
2.The Army has lost all credibility once Musharraf capitulated on Spet 12th 2001. Kayani had gotten back some credibility but he has also lost it now that it has become obvious that he also is in the American’s pocket.
3. CJ Iftikhar had credibility but it is fast eroding since he has avoided taking up the tough decisions about NRO and Nov 3rd actions.
4. Nawaz Shareef did have credibility but it is also eroding because of his increasing associations with the Americans.
5. The good that has come out of Swat is that the Talibs have also lost credibility-( political) as Mullah Sufi started giving statements about the power that he does not have.
You must have heard the old saying about Salt Mines- that who so ever went in became SALT-
That is the crux of the problem with the Americans. Anyone who is even slightly thought to be OK to them is going to be dead-( politicaly) Does that give legitimacy to the Religious parties ? NO They lost all their credibility with Musharraf and MMA and thanks to Fazlu Boy.
We are dealing with a very severe crisis of confidency- WHO to believe ? Everyone has lied and continues to lie.
Just look at this blog. There are a lot of people who simply ignore what is happening, and just keep parroting their whims.
During the 1965 and 1971 War with India- I used to joke with my fellow officers that the Indians were as bad as we were and that was our saving grace !
So now I would say that the Talibs are as incompetent as the Govt of PP and their associates.
We need someone who can be trusted and believed by those that oppose the Govt and those who support. The present lot is finished. It has to be someone new and they have to move fast to show the public that they mean what they say. If that were to happen- then the Talibs will believe him too and we would be able to solve the problem. That is the crus of the matter.
By the way, were you ever President of Pakistan Just kidding.
But seriously, do you think the Army operation will succeed this time around or just fizzle out leaving behind more horrific atrocities. What’s your assessment of the Jawans’ morale .
Quote- “So yes, treat this myth of the Taliban’s invincibility for the hogwash it is. These animals can be wiped out once public opinion is solid across the board against them. Once the Army goes after them the way it should. And the sources of their funding need clipping. ”
Once the public opinion is solid behind the army- and PRAY when will that happen ? Sort of like to 20 plus years in Vietnam !
Once the Army goes after them THE WAY IT SHOULD ! Oh. who orders them to do things properly and who will determine if they are doing that properly or not.
And once their sources of funding are clipped ! And who PRAY will do that ? And how.
If you keep doing the same- you will have the same results.
“We need someone who can be trusted and believed by those that oppose the Govt and those who support. The present lot is finished. It has to be someone new and they have to move fast to show the public that they mean what they say.”
I hope you are not asking for miracles. Where does this “someone” come from??
“…There is no room for half-measures now. Matters must be taken to their logical conclusion. Only if the army acquires the upper hand – and this is not going to be easy-will space be created for genuine negotiations. At the same time we have to tell the Americans that Pakistan deserves better than the pittance in the Kerry-Lugar bill. But for this we need leadership which Zardari, alas, and the knights of his roundtable are in no position to provide. Therein lies our predicament….”
(Of course for him the savior is Nawaz and solution only possible after the “success” of the army operation in acquiring “the upper hand”)
didn’t know u fought in 65 n 71, Heartfelt thanks and gratitude for ur service for the country. May ALLAH reward u, all i can offer is simple words of thanks.
Agreed with all ur points u mentioned in several posts. I dun see the way out, cuz way out of this requires Leadership and ppl united (atleast majority) behind that leadership. Today’s chaos is easy to blame on Military intervention, USA and Indian designs, inept politicians and corrupt elites. But for me the most culpable for Pak situation are pak awwam who always choose the path of least resistance whenever some dictator took power, or whenever some inept politicians keep screwing with them. This nation, atleast a sizeble portion, choose Ayub over fatima jinnah. We refuse to learn we refuse to educate ourselves. Even when it was obvious PPP has cut deal with USA and was always in talk with Mushy, the ppl still keep saying benazir tere jaanisar baishumar baishumar. we get the leadership we deserve. So lets blame ourselves 1st.
For me IK was the only hope for the peace negotiation. Now if he is also giving up his stand then we should be ready for the division of pakistan or as razakhan said civil war.
We will never win this battel. Yes the weapon industry won again. So you idiots get ready for spending more and more money for army budget instead of education and development.
Agree with your assessment re: crisis of confidence and lack of leadership.. but i’m sure you don’t expect some messiah to rise out of the east holding the panacea to all our ills in his hip pocket??
It appears to me that the only solution is a joint military/civilian operation – which re-establishes the writ of the state whilst simultaneously working at successively integrating the region and its people into the mainstream through human development initiatives.
I do not from where the Messiah will come. It seems to me that we have been for millenia waiting and hoping for SOMEONE to solve our difficulties. And when we do not have a Messiah- we MAKE dead people into MAKE believe Messiahs.-( Jinnah, Bhutto ZAB and BB etc ). I am hoping that the turmoil will bring someone but turmoil has a bad habbit-( in Pakistan) of bringing the wrong people-( a la Altaf Husain).
I do read Ayaz Amir as soon as his article comes out. I do not agree with him all the time but he is from Ghora Gali-( Lawrence College) and so are a lot people in my family. I enjoy his Language- I hope the Taliban will allow that !
@shimatoree
“I do not from where the Messiah will come. ”
Neither do I…
“I enjoy his Language- I hope the Taliban will allow that !”
Ditto Here’s a few oldies I really enjoyed: Faith knows no religious boundaries
About the dedication of Hezbollah’s leadership, suffice it to say that Hasan Nasrallah’s own son died fighting the Israeli army in Lebanon in 1997. An exchange of bodies took place a year later. The late Eqbal Ahmed (who also wrote for this paper) wrote this for the Al-Ahram weekly at the time:
“Sayed Hassan Nasrallah entered the hall in solemn dignity accompanied by Jawad, his teenage son. He stopped before each coffin and offered the Fatiha (the Muslim equivalent of the Lord’s Prayer) until he reached the one marked 13. He beckoned to an aide and spoke to him in a whisper. The aide summoned two workers of the Islamic Health Association, a Hezbollah outfit. They opened the coffin exposing a body wrapped in a white shroud. Sheikh Nasrallah’s eyes closed, his lips trembled as he offered the Fatiha. Slowly, he bent over and tenderly stroked the head of Hadi Nasrallah, his eldest son who was 18 when he died in battle on 13 September (1997). Jawad, the younger son, stood still and pale next to his father. A deep silence fell on the room while (Hasan Nasrallah’s) right hand rested on his son’s chest.”
Is such a leadership easy to defeat?
How many F-16s does Hezbollah have? Time was when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto sent Pakistani fighter pilots to Syria during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war ( a mistake I can’t imagine Air Chief Marshal Tanvir making in a hurry), something which the Syrians have not forgotten. Now we can’t even bring ourselves to say the right words about Lebanon. These are not proud days to be a Pakistani.
Hezbollah has no F-16s but it is running rings around one of the best armies in the world. We can have 500 F-16s in our air force but given the crisis of resolve we face, we will remain a country ready to jump at the sound of a single phone call.
And here is some Ayaz from Aug 1999. Guess he wasn’t PML-N then. “…The tragedy is that while the intellectual and moral calibre of the English-speaking governing classes was always low, that of the desi crowd which has assaulted Islamabad on the strength of the heavy mandate is even lower. Between them Pakistan’s goose is being cooked…. “
Thank you for serving our nation in uniform. I always believed job of Army or law enforcement men is radically different from rest of the society. It may not be as challenging as few others in some aspects but the sheer commitment to lay your in the line of duty has no parallels. In Pakistan cuz of martialaws, interference in political affairs and extra priviliges that Army enjoys in every spehere of life their role is not given due respect in society. But that doesn’t change the fact that our soldiers like soldiers in rest of the world are ready to lay down their lives for our protection and for that they need all the appreciation in the world.
I don’t agree with your analysis on lost credebility. Sherry Rehman was least credeible on March 14th and most credeible on March 15th right after she resigned. In politics and may be in life as well you can loose and win credebility in no time. I also think your yard stick any one who is close to Washington is not credible is misleading. In past 62 years everyone has worked closely with Washington politicians both secular and religious, GHQ, insurgents and sepratists like Taliban, ANP, BNP, MQM. So if you use this yard stick there is no credibility in Pakistan. US was super power before 90′s and sole super power since then. Pakistan has been sitting in US block since day 1. So this yard stick of credibility is flawed.
@shimatoree
@nota
@gv
oho mayoos nah hotey, her kaam main ALLAH ki maslehat, her kharabi main acchai ka rasta bhi hota hai. Think of this way stage getting set for either Imam Mehdi or return of Real messiah.
Pewasta reh shajar se umeed-e-bahar rakh;)
@gv
may be since u agnostic (and i really get confuse abt these terms, atheist agnostic etc etc) just think global warming will soon take care of everything
can anyone help me identify those people who were against Musharraf and now wnat GIlani and Army to continue the policy?
Why is media and public all of a sudden supporting Army? Are we now with the people who kill Pakistani? are we are okay to say go for drones attack?
wake up guys wake up .. The US govt. is laughing at us they way media have helped trance you guys in favour of them and aganist the SWAT and NWFP people!!!
1. As a Pushtoon whose own family members are in the army fighting against the Talibs- I do know a little bit ,…..
So we are in the same boat, one of my cousins working as SSG officer just left Swat after spending there more than a year and another just went in, and guess what they are also Pakhtuns. Also my relatives are living in Swat and ya do you remember the suicide attack in Peshawar check post in which a couple, their only son and their orphan nephew died while the other kid lost his eyes. They were going to school and they were also happened to be my relatives.
2. The Morale of the Talibs-( regardless of the morality of their stance) is , has been and will remain very high.
It is just your wishful thinking.
They ARE very sharp politically and they are learning as they go along. The Army accepts that and knows that.
Yae ya, that are why right after the agreement with ANP they went straight to conquer Shangla and Buner and ruined the entire sympathetic environment, built for them by SISTERS like you.
3. The displaced people of Swat do not love the Talibs-( yet) but already in the refugee camps- there are rumblings that the people left because of the bombardment by the army and airforce.
Do you think after violation of the peace agreement, there left any solution?
4. You DID not make any logical comment on the failiur of the Americans in Afghanistan for the last 9 years.
I don’t think that Americans or any other oppressive forces will ever be able to win the war in Afghanistan. But I do believe that Taliban in Afghanistan are in different shoes. They have the morale base to fight, but Pakistani Taliban have lost their credibility (Thanks God you agree on this at least) and if you have relatives in Army you might be well aware than that it is India who is backing them and that is why Sufi has to denounce Kashmir Jihad.
6. To call the Talibs animals might make you feel better .
Or are you calling them animals so you can justify killing them?
Yes it does because I know the real people who are/were the witnesses/victims of the viciousness of Taliban.
So if you can think with a cool mind- what are you going to do when they appear in Southern Punjab or in Karachi or anywhere else.
And how many are you willing to kill.
So what is your solution, sit back and let them do what they want to do… Don’t you think we did the ‘MUZAKIRAAT’ too? Do you know what the new demands of Sufi are?
Release those who were caught in Harichand suicide attack red handed.
It seems your argument is that since everyone is discredited (and there’s truth in that) there’s nothing we can do but wait for some messiah.
To me that is no solution. You are presenting no alternatives, only criticizing everything and everyone around.
I have faith in struggle, struggle to improve our systems and institutions so we might be able to fight the ills plaguing us. There is no alternative. The continuing process of self evaluation, self accountability, and self improvement (the vehicles being ongoing education, awareness, institution building, democratic process etc) is the only way forward.
Just lashing out at the failures evident is not going to solve anything.
@dildar
if u want to be taken seriously and wana debate plz get the facts right. u said
“Do you think after violation of the peace agreement, there left any solution?”
Richard Halbroke addressing congress admitted that Zardari had assured him that peace deal will fall through. U mean to tell me an agreement signed for peace and didn’t even given a chance absolve the govt? History of agreements by Pakistani govt and local insurgencies that have been broken at the whim of not Pakistani ppl, thier eleceted leaders or military by of USA.
On a side note plz accept my condolences on loss of ur relatives, May ALLAH bless them and reside them in paradise (ameen sum ameen)
just bombarding with jest an’t gonna solve the problem either. After the current usa yatra do u expect anything good from this govt.
1 – Transit route to India
2 – No custom duty for trade that Afgahnistan does through Pak ports.
3 – Who knows how much truth is there in news regarding the nuclear secrets given to usa. Like they say u need a mole to built a hill. So many western media has reported that.
you sould like Bhutto after the Tashkent agreement between Ayub Khan and the Indian PM Lal Bahadur Shastri (aka Baal Baraabar Shastri) after the 65 war. The indian PM died after the meeting and bhutto claimed that he died because of happiness as Ayub Khan sold half Pakistan to India.
The very same Bhutto, in his hunger for power, went on to sell half of Pakistan (now Bangladesh) after 70 election.
Who gave the chance to this greedy dog (zardari) to go break the agreement?
Don’t you think it was the one who is suffering from verbal diarrhea , the Muslim Khan, and what about Sufi, don’t you see him responsible?
PM is so kind , he said ” aqalliaton ka jeena doobhar kar dia gaia thaa ” why he is so late , why he did not waked up early when innocnet muslims were bombed,butchered and tourchered by those terrorists in the area and all over Pakistan?. why our rulers are not taking any dissession by there own, always waiting for instructions from there Masters……..Aey Allah Pakistan ko mukhlis aor azad hukmaran ataa farmaa, ghulaam naheen…Aameen………
If my memory serves me right Bhutto was main architect of tashqand agreement ayub to aiwain he badnaam hoa lol – Trust me am no fan of bhutto.
@dildar
So cuz they had verbal diarrhea we should start operation bro? costing so many lives and so many refugees inside our own country couldn’t we use that verbal diarrhea to our own advantage and split up the opposition by using some to ally with us thus decreasing thier numbers isolating them then eliminating them, compare to just use jet to bombard indiscrimantly? Govt should show more brains compare to some illetrate morons no? If verbal diarrhea can cause this I wonder what ur stand is for Karachi and MQM? Altaf hussain’s address can easily be read as causing racial hatred and divisions and inciting violence, his bhashans to pushtoon ghaiarat and punjabiyaat, how abt we eliminate him and do an operation in karachi like the one we doing in SWAT? Liyari basically run by gangs do u know what grave security threat is that?
You need to get your facts straight. Zardari was not the only one who was uncertain about this peace deal. Majority of those who supported it were as uncertain as Zardari. According to peace deal or NAR in reponse to few Qazis Taliban had to lay down their arms. Do you or anyone here believes that all that brutality throat slitting suside attacks by Taliban was for few judges/Qazis? Gov entered in this deal to expose Taliban their real motives and to marshall public opinion against them. Don’t start this crap deal wasn’t given a chance. Gov was in process of appointing Qazis and Taliban instead of disarming were spreading out to Buner and Dir – clear violation of deal. Instead of lecturing others plez get your facts straight.
Not just the Tashkent agreement, Bhutto was also the one who initiated Operation Gibralter which led to 65 war and the rest is history.
Point being, why do u think that all the world, including the current govt, is conspiring against Pakistan? What do you think is the disadvantage of having trade with India and/or Afghanistan and letting them use our ports?
PM said golden words while addressing yesterday at inogration of a book that “always it was claimed by Dictators that silent mejority is with them.” It is my request to “PkPolitics” to search the results of Ellections in 1970,77,and up to now What was the voters turn out and how many persentage of the total votes were taken by So-Called Democretic Parties.As I understand in 1970 PPP got only 37% votes and voters turn out was 56% ( remember it was united Pakistan’s election result) and this Party became the king of broken & injured Pakistan…After that on every election voters turnout never reached more than 35% …and each fool politician is claiming the leadership of “SOLA KAROR AWAM”. Can someone please correct me if I am wrong…….Thanks
I have no problem per se with tarde. My issue with this is following
1 – Afghanistan gets custom free trade at our ports and use our trade routes, what do we get in return? The security situation in Afghanistan still dun allow to trade freely to central asian countries. If u remember one reason BB supported Taliban was to secure trade routes, right now even the trucks going with Nato supplies are not been protected from armed gangs who exacts a price to let them through. So again what we gain and plz dun talk abt future gains, USA planning to stay in there and its non-ending war.
2 – Since we being so generous with India to allow it to trade to afghanistan do u think it will stay only there we allowing india to reach central asia, with security provided by indian troops already in afghanistan, so guess wat we loose again. Next since we been so kind to Afghanistan with refugees and trade why dun Afghanistan do a fav trade partner with us? Dun our industries need that boost? Imagine how much will it help our economy. Couple that with security nightmare it will create for Pak giving routes to india through pak will these routes will only be used for trades, only a naive person will believe that.
3 – We have problem with India on Kashmir, 4get Kashmir right now. India been building dams all over occupied Kashmir u have seen teh result of this with ur own eyes, a flood or lack of water, we have sir creek dispute, no day goes by that India dun bashes us. Why are we doing all this for india, atleast in return can we have the diplomatics talks back on the table with firm committment to solve all issues? and with same since we being so nice to Afghanistan how abt resolving duerand line dispute?
I have seen your marvelous brain that twists the facts for extreme right arguments. You can see MQM militancy but same thing coming from right Taliban or JI seems revolutionary to you. When we point out obvious double standard your best defence is to label us Indian/Kafir/American/Jewish agents …
Brilliant. Lets just cut off all the connections with the world. No trade, no relations with any of our neighbours whatsoever. No need to develop, build, bring jobs or even educate our people. Instead we should prepare all our children with “Holier than thou” mentality so that they may think that everyone is Pakistans enemy because we are muslim and have nuclear bomb and these nuclear bombs must be protected even if we, as nation, have to starving for the next 1000 years.
We are fool as Nation and our leaders are know this very well so they make us fool every time………………………plese wake up…..wake up…..wake up…change your leader ship..chang your politics….rase your hands and say to Allah ….plese forget us ,,we were wrong ,,forget our mistakes,,we need Your help ,,plese help us Allah……………………..It is my request to all Pakistani people……….plese change your self…change your mind set….be a good Muslims and good pakistani…….result will come soon in front of you..Insha-Allah.
dont look towords Army,Primeminister, Presedent..etc.they cant do any thing without help of Allah… so we all look towords Allah…for that we follow his orders and act on that.
In order to treat a patient with life threatening disease- the first step has to be recognition of the problem- both the nature of the problem and the severity of the problem.
In human diseases- there ARE situations when no treatment is possible.
In the conditions of nations- such situations can arise. I am not sure if that is the case in Pakistan- but anyone who is interested in the welfare of this nation muct look at those that claim to provide cure with some degree of skepticism. This is esp: true for those who have been tried and found wanting.
I would like to have a crystal ball and suggest a magical transformation-
but I am only an ordinary citizen who lacks all the special qualities needed .
I look in the miror and find myself not impressive at all. But I do have eyes and a functioning brain and so I describe what I see.
If I can come up with a solution- I shall keep to myself so that I can a billion or two like those before me ! Ha Ha Ha !
This post was blocked previously and I am pasting it again.
@shimatoree,
I have not seen PM’s speech but I think I got the gist of it. So, while you are analyzing the aftermath of his actions, you should also try to answer some important questions:
- Who is supporting these Talibans?
- Where are they getting all the money from? I mean you have mentioned that these are poor people, so how are they being fed, clothed and all that then?
- Where are they getting all the ammunition from to fight a trained army? I mean, I am not going to believe a bit on the Taliban’s spokesperson that the amu was stolen from the Pakistani army because based on the amount of amu these people have, that is just not a true statement.
- If these people are so politically savvy then why did they make such a huge political blunder by a) advancing towards and capturing Buner; what was the real motive behind that? b) openly threatening the parliament members before the bill was presented c) started labeling everyone “Kaffir” and …. Because I would not expect all these obvious blunders from politically savvy people as you have tried to portray them.
Someday after all the fighting is done- you will have to sit down and talk with those that are being described as Taliban or Animals or terrorists. Any solution will depend on credibility and that will depend on legitimacy
When you do that- if you have been in the American camp- and that goes for the generic term-( not you the person Kashif) you will have no legitimacy nor any credibility with those adversaries. I am not making this up or wishing for it but THIS is FACT.
The BIG problem I am seeing coming down the road is-
either pakistan will be ruled by a re-incarnation of Saddam Hussain and his police state-
-( The Republic of Fear) or will be in constant state of civil War between ethnic groups, Sectarian groups and so on.
The fact that Pakistan has been in the American Camp since the days of Liaqat Ali Khan is irrelevent- that was in the past. Very difficult decisions have to be made by who so ever will be in the position.
And no one is recommending an isolationist stance but some one some time will have to stand up for Pakistan rather just saying but not doing so.
I would recommend a political study of the French Revolution-( if you have not done so already) esp: the period when Robespierre was in command.
I am very pessimistic because of what I see every day when I go to the bazar and see the filth in the streets. Perhaps I AM a pessimist .
During the Bajaur operation which I am told is very successful from a military stand point- the MORALE across the board was good , better with the filed commanders than the jawans but it was still good. The reason was that the Taliban commanders had a sizable number of people from outside the area such as Tajiks and Uzbecks from Afghanistan. The Pakistan army has some very bright and excellent people in spite of what you read on this blog from certain people . I can tell you this- when it comes to intellect they are as good or better than any other fighting men
The Morale amongst the jawans can best be described as Ok but it is good amongst the field commanders . The main problem is that the Jawans feel that they are having to fight their own people . A lot of people will deny that but look it- they are Pushtoons, they are Muslims and they are from the same areas.
I think they have been put in a difficult situaion and after all they are not machines- they are human beings subject to all emotional ups and downs following their actions which in their case result in death and destruction.
I am very sorry to hear about the brutal death of your relatives at the hands of the Taliban suicide bomber. Please do accept my heartfelt condolences. I am sure that you are proud of your two cousins, SSG officers, who are serving on the front. Please do tell them that the patriotic Pakistanis are fully supporting their service to the country and will never forget that they are risking their lives for us.
I would like to take this opportunity to tell my brothers and sisters who care about Pakistan that we all need to forget our differences and support our armed forces who are risking their lives so that we can remain free of the evil Talibans. All of us need to also financially help out the thousands of people who have had to relocate to other parts of NWFP to escape the fighting. Remember, these poor people have taken the brunt of the Taliban’s evil medicine and it is incumbent upon all of us to help them in anyway we can.
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD – PAKISTANI ARMED FORCES ZINDABAD – DEATH TO THE EVIL TALIBAN
Both Zardari and Hamid Karzai are requesting US leadership to stop air raides. The colateral demage is multiplying support for alqaeda and Taliban. I hope they will come up with new strategy thats effective and addresses these legitimate concerns…
1. Who is supporting the Taliban- where are they getting
the money ?
Answer-
1. Complex and complicated but very well organsied network that involves quite a few very rich donors from the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia who are vicariously getting back at the West.
2. Donations from public through organizations throughout Pakistan, e,g; from every shop keeper.
3. Taxes from trucking business and the drug business in Afghanistan.
4. In Peshawer if you want anyone dead you need about 300 dollars. That is the cost.
Who does that- well there are lots of Afghan refugees who have no resources and there are a lot of locals who are in the same business and will do that for 300 dollars. 300 dollars is 24000 ruppees. That can feed a family of 6 for a while even in these times.
WHERE are they getting all the ammunition and firearms from
Answer-
After the Russians left – a tremendous amount of arms and ammunition was left in Afghanistan both of the Russians which they left but also of the arms supplied to the Mujaheddeen by Saudi Arabia and USA, Egypt etc. Most of this stuff consisted of AK-47 rifles of differing types , RPGs of different types, 50 caliber machine guns, recoil less rifles for anti tank work and various types of mortars . They do steal from the Pakistan army depots and after the army abandones their arms. Plus there is an arms factory in Dara Adam Khel where my cousins and their cousins make the weapons.
Regarding the political capabilities of the Talibs- why did they make a political blunder by invading Buner.
Answer-
my comment was in a relative sense- meaning that many people are describing them as animals, Jahil, ignorant and so on.
They are not any of those things- but why did they invade Buner ?
There are probably two reasons-
1. Someone amongst them got cockey and thought that they could do what they were incapable of. This happens when you succeed beyond your expectations-( as they did succeed in Swat).
2. They had intelligence that the army was coming after them and they tried to Pre-empt that move to get themselves in a better tactical position.
One of the great misconceptions everyone has is that the Taliban are a cohesive and well organised bunch- sort of like PPP or PML-N or MQM where Zardari-( or NS or Altaf) says jump and everyone jumps.
The Taliban movement is a collection of different totaly independent groups who work togather but do not follow a supreme commander-( if there is any). Like I said each group is an independent cell and operates independently.
That is the reason as to why they have NOT been more effective but that is also a reason why the organised armed forces like Nato or USA or Pakistan Army has and will continue to have difficulty in defeating them . That is the reason why the Russians lost against them and that is reason why I am pessimistic about the Gilani speech and his expectations.
When every thing is said and done- it always boils down to the ARISTOCRACY of INTELLECT . The smart and determined guy always wins no matter what. And INJUSTICE is a great stimulation for the intellect .
But the what does the word SMART really mean here ?
It means some one who fluid in their thinking.
The Taliban in spite of their desire for a rigid system of Sharia are the most felxible and fluid when it comes to military tactics and strategy.
As a student of military history- I am amazed at this dichotomy where a rigid and doctrinaire group of people function in the most fluid manner .
But then the Pushtoon is a born soldier and it is in his instincts and his very being to think about fighting and battle and war. If there is no work , and nothing else to keep them occupied- well then what is available and appeals to the heart and soul is accepted and there we go again.
” Its a state of mind that goes back 100,000 years . All through their history they have lived an existence where men dominate and are still living that state except now they are equipped with the most modern weapons” The Pushtoon Warriors have always been facing great armies . Even though some might wish to disparage the Taliban but not matter wheather we like it or not- it is the Pushtoon Taliban who form heart and soul of this movement-whatever the label.
hahaha! you’re losing it man! what was it? the last video @mbokhari posted? Don’t tell me you’re going to go the way of our ‘villager friend’ and start an anti @mbokhari weblog …
who knows, maybe you’ll get more than two other Pakistani blogs pointing to it this time around… lol WINK WINK!
Btw, I’m not sure if you tried to imply up there that this @cogito guy was me or not, the way you linked specifically to me, it seemed that way.. Like I said before, I don’t need to play these kindergarten games to take care of your punk ass! So, You should know better (let me just leave it at that). Also, if a lot of people are pointing out to you that you’re engaging in ad-hominem attacks, then is it not possible that they might be right and that you ARE in fact trying to argue by either making lame personal attacks or by posting google searches as “rebuttals” ??
Stop embarrassing yourself. It is painful to watch.
@razakhan: “This nation, atleast a sizeble portion, choose Ayub over fatima jinnah. ”
Although I think the Pakistani “awwam” apathy is a big factor in the current mess we find ourselves in, I think more than the awam — who never were given power — it is the sock-puppet, kleptocratic and shameless foreign lackey of a ruling class that we got here which is to blame.
I do not agree with your assessment that “this nation” chose Ayub over Mohtarma Fatimah Jinnah. You are assuming that the results of that highly rigged “election” were somehow valid and that it was indeed the Pakistani awam who rejected her.
Yes, they did not come out on the streets and throw that son of a whore out on the streets, that is true, and that is where your accusation of our apathy holds some truth, but to say they elected Ayub over Fatimah Jinnah is tantamount to calling that election “free & fair” and it was everything BUT.
@shimatoree: thanks for a detailed analysis of the situation from a ‘feet on the ground’/ ‘military perspective’ .. .although I do not agree with the assertions re: the ethnicity of the talibs and the conclusions that you drew from it viz-a-viz their ultimate moral(e) edge over the jawans fighting them. But @dildar kinda went over those ‘objections’ as it were.
Funny that you mention Robspierre. :-S
I doubt though that it would be religious civil war or a popular revolution (talibs are NOT IT from what I can see.) Your fears of a “Saddam like figure” may come to pass though …
But I think the mode may be different. The only thing that can get the west a ‘long lasting’ autocracy is the ‘Saudi Model” aka … Heniously Repressive Theocratic Autocracy (all in the name of Islam of course) … and this is where I think the fanatic Wahabi/Deobandi talibs come in…
If they get to split Pakistan into little ‘emirates’, then Pakistan gets defanged and the west and India get a bunch of little balkanized states dependent on and necessarily acquiescent to the demands of the ‘powers that be’ (this will include India).
If they don’t, at the very least they will create a grotesque talib regime in Pakistan on the old afghani talib model with the whole Saudi-Repression Model of control thrown in, and it will be a stalinistic dictatorship (headed by an “Amir” and a fake ass “shura” and all) controlled through a double proxy, but still in the hands of the west (depriving China and Russia) just like “Saudi” Arabia is right now.
One of my pet (developing) conspiracy theories is that the US is trying to carve Pakistan out via its proxies aka “The Gulf States” and their proxies aka “The Taliban” … The idea maybe to create a ‘paper kingdom’ or ‘paper khilafa’ or some kind of fako ‘emirate’ which will keep the Pakistani people under its heniously repressive thumb while fulfilling the geo-politically strategic objectives of the US and the West at large.
Although, learning from the past, one would expect them to not do something so stupid for fear of massive blowback (it could happen for realz yo!)
>>Is it just a coincident that your name sounds like one of those khuarji commanders which are getting wiped out?”
>Your wish is possible on pkpolitics forum.
I totally agree with you, had it not been only on pkpolitics it would have been much easier to suppress my opinion, any teen talib could have accomplish this mission on your command commander zahid bin mustafa.
@aftabahmed
parties getting majority vote in the elections are the representative of 100% of the public even if 20% of the total votes were cast. The reason; I give a sh!t to those 80% who didn’t bother to come out to vote and then blame the govt for all their ills. either vote or $hut up, it is as simple as that!!
The word MORALE I used simply in terms of confidence level and their very firm belief-(fanaticism or such)-in their cause-
- as compared with the over all morale of the Jawans who have the same problems that I have-( about anything) – that is doubts, fears, questions, concerns etc about everything around and in their life.
In war- that sort of Fanaticism is helpful-( in my view).
I must express my amusement at all this talk about Pakistan breaking up and either the Talibs taking over or some other disaster scenario some of which I commented upon.
The problem that I am most concerned about in life is-
Lack of decisiveness . History repeatedly tells us that making decisions-( even wrong ones ) is far better than dilly dallying .
Making decisions is two things at once in my view-
1. Making the actual decision
2.By making the decision in a quick and specific manner you seend a message to everyone that there is ggoing to be a REACTION to whatever they do- and THAT puts them in a place where they have to worry -( and dilly dally)-about what you might do . So you essentially start affecting their decision making capacity.
For making decisions like that- you need intellect and courage so you do not lose one moment.
Oh ! my two favourites from the French Revolution are
Comte de Mirabeau- and Robespierre but esp the later since he was an intellectual and though a small man with a squeeky voice- in terms of intellectual honesty he was a LION.
Mirabeau on the other hand said one thing that is-( for me ) very profound and I paraphrase here -
” In life it is always the moment that determines what happens. Majority of leaders dilly dally- the moment is lost and thus fortunes and empires are lost. And to grab the moment you need confidence, and courage of your convictions. “
If there had a been a fair election- Fatima Jinnah would have won hands down.
But we should not blame the AWAM because they were poor, timid and afraid of the GOVT.
the word POOR in English does NOT translate well from GHAREEB in Urdu or Pushto . The word Ghareeb expresses not only the economic poverty but helplessness-( and sehmay huway)
Faiz said very well and was describing the same awam -
Kisay wakeel karein
Kiss sey musifee chahein
unhee guzarnein walon key din guzartey hain etc etc.
The oppression, lack of education, beatings by parents and teachers, lack of love and kindness is what these Awam grow up in and to expect the same Awam to stand up to an organized armed GANG-( Martial Law) is asking a bit much.
The fact that they rose and voted for Fatimah Jinnah was in itself a great act of courage and a loud cry that for a little LOVE and a word of kindness we will do anything- even endanger ourselves.
And the same Awam did not cut anyone’s throats or give lashes to anyone on their bottoms or kill anyone who beats their chest on Muharram .
Even to-day if a credible trustworthy leader rises and is able to show that same love and kindness to this same awam- let me assure you – the same Awam will rise to the occasion .
Yes we want a Messiah !
If anyone has any doubts about this Awam- just look what they did during the earthquake.
only time will tell if it is the right decision.
Admin sahib!!!
)
PM’s address should be put put as leading story becuase substance of speech is much important.PM officially calls army for operation in Malakand Division(important development).
(But according to my knowledge, army is in Swat since 2007 in Swat
HUM YEH CHATAY HEIN, HUM YEH KARIEN GAY, WOH ZALIM LooG HAIN, YEH ISLAM NAHI HAI………………………..
I Simply ask to this PM is there any ===Remarkable Achievement=== till to-date which is in the account of PPP, what the hell they are doing with this nation for their last One year Rule?
Go Pak Army – Long Live Pakistan.
@binary zero
“Go Pak Army – Long Live Pakistan.”
Are you living at 90 kali mata’s residance? Operation has been started since oct, 2007 with back of 20,000 army troops.
WAKE UP!!!!
I don’t know, to whom Geelani is making fool, despite everyone knows military operation is continued since 2 years!!!!!
it’s All OUT WAR now. And dude get a life – your telling me about operation starting in 2007 means nothing.
nobody really cares what Geelani says or what he is – We all stand with our Army.
I sincerely hope this time army will achieve its objectives and wipe these thugs out of this world. I cannot forgive these b****** for discrediting my religion, the same way the thugs of karachi have discredited my mother-tongue. I hope once army finishes tali off, they will concentrate to do the same to the thugs of the south.
@binary zero
Our all workers are with Army in operation. KALI MATA.
This what KALI MATA said after Geelani’s speech, and right after Kali Mata send one of his “Gang troop” binary_zero (sitting @ nine-zero) to support operation in Malakand Division.
@zahidbinmustafa
thanks for labelling me as MQM
i seriously doubt any sane Pakistani would even consider or fully read Altaf mofo’s speeches – what abt you ?
Good to hear that Altaf kalia is with Pakistan Army ….And what about other Extremist Party like JI ?
PTT is a fitna and needs to be rooted out. PTT is supported by India, USA, AFGH and other power – supply lines are from AFGH, we need to fix this ASAP for our own good; If we need to fight US – we should fight them by fighting PTT and beating them out of here. YES there would be human cost but its a war now, there would be civilian deaths and its going to be very harsh – we should be ready for that.
@sam33r
i seriously think JI is as same as MQM and their views are real threat to Pakistan as well – they’ve never been in power and when they were the Talibanisation spread in NWFP. They should be kept at an arm’s distance.
@Mr. Prime Minister
What an improvement in your speech. You got a faaltoo F grade in your last speech. Even though some people will dub this speech as a good script reading, I will still give it a B- with a potential of A- (next time)
Go Yusuf Raza, Go Jawano of Pak army, crush Taliban.
Problem is we forgot we are muslims… but rest of the world still precieves us as muslims… we have been doing these discussions for years… but the reality is when it comes to actions we become selfish… My point is these leaders represent us… the reason zardari is corrupt is because we, the individuals in pakistan, are corrupt… and no one can change our situation unless we do it for ourselves…
it is quite obvious that we are slave nation… we cant even make our own decisions…. zardari goes to washington… millitary starts offense in swat…its just a shame on all of us… regardless of our ethnicity… either pathan, muhajir, behari, panjabi, kashmiri etc…. We are on the path of destruction for ourselves…. use of force may be benificial for americans but not for pakistanis… we cant change our neighbours… these white KKK klan will pack their bags and leave… it is us me and you, who probbly think they are now westerners by getting passports, will suffer… People need to come out on streets like Chife justice case…. and get rid of this slavery…
Gilani is a puppet rubber stamp. We should all stand with pak army no mater what any political party says. we should support army. army zindabad. check the speech at 09:30 min. he does not know what he is saying. His speech is traditional. It is ok to address the nation at this point but as usual ppp govt can not refrain from begging international communities as he has done in the last minute of the speech. I dont know when our leaders will teach the nation to stand on its feet. shame on ppp
Though came late.. came right. No army operation can succeed without support of civilians. And I think there is sufficient support available now.. and political will as well on the part of the main steam political parties of Pakistan for the operation. Nevertheless, the PM’s speech has now indicated any strategy to deal with the influx of people leaving Swat… it will be a real test besides operation. It needs the same level of charity and attachment from the people of pakistan as they have shown after earthquake in 2005.
Long live Pakistan… love live Pak army.
Is he crazy? this is suicide!!! this is a declaration of a civil war!!!
has this issue been discussed in parliament? have politicians, civil society, clergy and people from all walks of life brought on board?
why don’t we learn from our mistakes? why do we keep to-fro-ing between decisions?
I have serious objections to this decision and how it has been made.
english main end pe khataab kernay ki kia zarorat thi? end pe bheek maang ke sabat ker dya ke… please give us more $$$
@binary zero
ullo ke pathay… computer pe bhaith ke human cost aisey baat kerta hai jessa chachay ki dukaan pe cholon ki cost hi …. shame on you… idiot thinking…. shows your ignorance…
abhi zardari order lai kar aya hai aur abh baita explanation dai raha hai. its a shame to keep such a slave army. lanat amerikee order per chalnay wali ghulam fauji per. i bet, agar qadri padri maulvi bhi sharea lai kar aye aur mohaida karay tay america wahan bhi phoch jaye ga.
good speach,every body should support government and our brave army.taliban must be crushed for ever.
pakistan must seek international communety,s help against taliban.if america can seek the international community,s help why pakistan cannt.
More Bloood. More Killing of Our Own People. More Refugees. More hatred. More Suicide Bombings.
@ Thank You Na Pak Army And Gaddar PPP
I really don’t know if taliban have violated the peace accord, because I haven’t been watching news lately. but if they have, then I support a full-fledged operation against them, but if they haven’t then shame on this lanti blood thirsty ppp government.
I just hope whatever happens, happens for Good.
May Peace prevail in Swat…AMIN
Long live Pakistani army. I pray it successsfuly eliminates the millitants. These millitants/terrorists have been sponsored by CIA and RAW and sent into our country to create chaos. Every patriotic pakistani should stand with the army and help in eliminating these militants. Onething should be clear they’re not jehadis(they’re posing as one), they’re CIA sponsored terrorists.
zafar arain said:
“More Bloood. More Killing of Our Own People. More Refugees. More hatred. More Suicide Bombings.
@ Thank You Na Pak Army And Gaddar PPP”
the next time you have the urge to spew such nonsensical and clearly low intelligence garbage, make sure you remind yourself that being ignorant is nothing to proud of, and hence you do not have to advertise it to the world. i will not reply to your idiotic argument, and will not say anything to your unpatriotic comments about the pakistan army. get in touch with reality and then come back and post.
just 1 billion ruppees for a million internally displaced people !?!
thats a thousand ruppees per individual for god knows how long a period of displacement. And employment only for those who have had a family member killed by miltants..what about those who have been killed by artillery shelling and aerial bombardments ?
It is a proper discion.
To all who praise and support this decision-
Please do keep in mind that the Talibs who are opposing are sons of the soil- meaning they are (99 % of them) Pushtoons.
Do you Know the mindset of a Pushtoon ?
If not here is a little info you might find of help-
These Talibs are poor young men who( rightly or wrongly ) believe in their own ” ISLAMIC “point of view . They are tribal people. They do not forget and they do not forgive . They are brave beyond what you can imagine and they are not afraid to die . War and fighting to them is a great sport and each one of them is a born tcatician and strategist.
The Pakistan Army is a well organised force with advanced equipment, gunships , artillery , tanks etc etc . But they do not have the MORAL that the Talibs do and they lack the motivation to fight and kill those that they consider their own people.
Plus the army has the added burden that they are an army of mercenaries fighting to advance the interests of the USA.
If all of you supporters of this move still do not get the idea as to what gutless Gilani has put the country in – PLEASE do look at the following comment-
The USA with all it’s technical and military superiority has tried to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan in the last 9 years and to-day the Taliban control 77 % of Afghanistan- what makes you think that the much less well equipped Pakistan Army will not have the same result after the next 10 years with results that would be unpleasent to say the least.
My advice to you all – Open your eyes and see what is coming and who you are up against.
And please try to rise above your capabilties as writers and pray not use foul language to hide behind.
@zafar arain,u r a fool or u r a traitor who abuse pak army when army is fighting against enemies of pakistan and islam.
@shimatoree,these taliban are coward,they handed over kabul to american forces with out firing a single bullet,now they cannt fight against american army,so they started to fight thier own army, i mean pak army bc they know they have many supporters in pakistan ,they will save them fr pak army.now game is over.just 6 more months,there will be no taliban.
@ democrat
Quote-
“now game is over.just 6 more months,there will be no taliban. ”
Is that a wish or a prediction ?
@ democrat
Quote- “these taliban are coward,they handed over kabul to american forces with out firing a single bullet,now they cannt fight against american army ”
You should ask the Americans about the validity of your statement. They will disagree with your comment since they are still there and are now increasing their armed forces to try to control the situation.
It appears to me that understanding the very basic knowledge of strategy and tactics is an anthema to you.
@shimatoree
I am a pushtun Mr. Shimatoree and I fully support wiping the taliban DNA out from Pakistan. My family in the NWFP has been living in fear since these people have taken over. You say that these Talibans will take revenge but you forget that the local people, specially from Swat and Buner will take their revenge from the Taliban as soon as they get a chance. The Talibans have killed and beheaded many innocent people and now its payback time.
Have you seen what they have done in Kurram agency? its absoluteley atrocious that such activities were aloud to happen. But as they say better late then never. This time all the Pakistani people (except Taliban lovers like shimatoree) are united and we FULLY SUPPORT our troops who have put their lives at risk for us.
LONG LIVE THE PAKISTANI ARMED FORCES- DOWN WITH TALIBAN – PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
da talibano beghairato da mor kussan oghaiyema – dui pa kunay key ba ous danday warkoma. Baitullah Masud, Fazlullah aao sufi – tol ba pa kus teregi
@YUSAFKHAN,well write sir,.tide is turning.i feel more secure now than before.now oridnary people are starting to understand how bad talibinasation is.
I really appreciate sacrifices being made by our security forces specially FC, we all as a nation owe a lot to those nice young men and the their families who gave lives for this land, they deserve all and all respect, lets not ridicule their utmost sacrifices with filthy comments like “na pak army”. I’m sure most of commentators are not even living in Pakistan and using such a malign language for those who on front line.
Hamid Mir was one of the most vocal supporters of talibans in media, here is what he thinks now, but if people are willing to think beyond their whims and fantasies.
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/may2009-daily/07-05-2009/col5.htm
@zahidbinmustafa
Is it just a coincident that your name sounds like one of those khuarji commanders which are getting wiped out?
@yusafkhan
“da talibano beghairato da mor kussan oghaiyema – dui pa kunay key ba ous danday warkoma. Baitullah Masud, Fazlullah aao sufi – tol ba pa kus teregi”
Hahaha I like it.. but no foul language please.
@shimatoree
Don’t forget that victims of these Taliban are also sons of the soil. You have a lot of pain for those who are slitting throats, burning schools, bombing every facility meant for those real sons of soil.
Who are you? You call yourself Pakhtun, don’t you see what these animals are doing to Pakhtuns. Do you have a stone instead of a heart that you can’t feel the pain of these Swati people?
Do you?
Is it only Taliban who are Pakhtuns, what about a common Swati people? Who are they? Are they not Pakhtun?
Please don’t sell the crap that they love these Taliban, blah blah…..I have talked to many Swatis and know how much they hate these animals. You know that too.
Enough crap, every body on this forum know very well that these animals are next to ANGELS, huh…..
What MORAL do Taliban have, would you like to enlighten us please?
Oh ya I got it now, you are talking about the landmines planted by Taliban in the populated areas of Swat so that they can stop the people from leaving their homes and use women and children as human shields against the military operation.
That is only thing you’ll be able sell here, cheers.
I believe that Swat is the part of Pakistan not Afghanistan. Here so-called Taliban are killing sons of the soil not Americans.
PESHAWAR: Shop owner Saeed Khan has already buried one child killed in fighting between the Taliban and government forces in northwest Pakistan. He cannot bear to lose another, AFP reports.
So the 50-year-old bundled his wife, son and daughter onto a bus in the Taliban-infested town of Mingora in the Swat valley and hurried to the city of Peshawar, hoping for a future free from further bloodshed.
‘I lost my son, who was a police officer in Swat, in a suicide attack in Mingora early this year. I buried him in front of my house,’ Khan told AFP, tears rolling down his cheeks.
‘I don’t want to dig graves for my daughter and son in Mingora. That is why I left the area… His death broke me. Tell me where should I go and from whom should I seek justice?’
Local officials say more than 40,000 men, women and children have packed up and fled Mingora since Tuesday, fearing that Pakistan’s military could unleash a fresh ground and air assault against Taliban fighters.
The bedraggled refugees, some leading goats and cattle through the streets, are seeking safety for their loved ones, as the Taliban claimed to control 90 per cent of the former ski resort and tourist getaway, once favoured by Westerners.
‘I am immediately leaving the city with my wife, mother and four kids,’ said taxi driver Ali Rehman, 46.
‘I don’t really know my destination and destiny. My family and I need protection.’
At the bus stop in Peshawar — the capital of the North West Frontier Province — exhausted and anxious people told stories of horror as they poured out of vehicles carrying old bags, blankets and bundles of clothes.
Zarina Begum, 40, pleaded for help as she staggered off a bus.
‘A mortar hit my house and as a result, I lost one of my eyes. Please take me to hospital, I want medical treatment,’ Zarina begged.
‘They (Taliban) killed my husband, they slit his throat after accusing him of spying… I escaped Swat because I don’t want my son to be killed under the same circumstances. I don’t want to receive his decapitated body.’
@shimatoree
Not only talibans but these people are Pashtun too, only these deserve sympathies, not those vampires as one of the displaced person described them.
Fleeing Swatis describe horrific scenes
The government had hoped that a peace deal agree in February would placate hardliners trying to impose a repressive brand of Islam, but instead the deal appears to be in tatters.
Clashes have flared in recent days throughout Swat, where wealthy Pakistanis and foreigners used to enjoy the breathtaking mountain scenery from plush hilltop hideaways, or cruise down the ski slopes.
Now, gunfire rings out in Mingora, where armed Taliban patrol the streets.
‘I’m really scared of going to Swat. Whenever I see Taliban, they look like vampires,’ said 25-year-old shop keeper Salman Mujtaba, who lost family members in a suicide attack near Mingora.
‘I will never ever go back to Swat. It has lost its beauty.’
@shimatoree,hiding in jangles,mountains and caves,night time shooting on allied forces killing few marines,this is not bravery.taliban are already defeated entity.now three most concerned countries are getting united,people are getting against taliban,this time they will be wiped out completely.so far pak army gave them very concesions and time to mend their ways but they dont have brain,they started to have fantasies to rule pakistan,stupid taliban,i feel sorry for them too.they are ignorant.but one thing i have to admit these ignorant taliban made a lot of educated people fool for long time.
@zahidbinmustafa
“I don’t know, to whom Geelani is making fool, despite everyone knows military operation is continued since 2 years!!!!!”
And didn’t you also love the “This proves we don’t act under anyone’s pressure”
@ dildar
it might be better if you stop acting like a politician and offering slogans. Let us try to be rational and logical-
1. The comments made about the planned war between the Army and Talibs are specific to those two parties. Yes the Pushtoons in Swat and other places are getting hurt. That always happens when two elephants fight- the grass suffers . My purpose is an analysis of the military situation and it’s political repercussions which for sure will be coming. As a Pushtoon whose own family members are in the army fighting against the Talibs- I do know a little bit and therefore I do not need to hide behind foul words like CRAP etc.
2. The Morale of the Talibs-( regardless of the morality of their stance) is , has been and will remain very high. They are a military force to be reckoned with and I will predict that it will be very difficult to defeat them. They ARE very sharp politically and they are learning as they go along. The Army accepts that and knows that.
3. The displaced people of Swat do not love the Talibs-( yet) but already in the refugee camps- there are rumblings that the people left because of the bombardment by the army and airforce. Now that might be just Taliban propaganda but it is there.
4. You DID not make any logical comment on the failiur of the Americans in Afghanistan for the last 9 years .
The reason the Pakistan Army will fail has to do with military tactics, physical geography of the region and the mobility and supply lines of the Talibs.
They are a light infantry , familiar with the terrain, can live of the soil and can disappear into the difficult areas without any problems. Their leadership is in small independent units organized in cells. The Pakistan army is a large bureaucracy with central decision making without which no one can move or do anything .
5. In a tactical sense it is total mismatch. A very mobile light infantry against a well heavily equipped army. If you know or have read about warfare – you would understand.
6. To call the Talibs animals might make you feel better .
Or are you calling them animals so you can justify killing them ? Thsi slogan of yours is not original – Adolph Hitler and many others have used it to justify killing other people.
But your comment does nothing towards clarifying the situation that Gilani has created by making his speech.
The Talibs are anything but animals . They are very smart-
( intelligent) and politically very clever and in their own way very efficient .
Just look at the situation in Swat – they made the politicians agree to the enforcement of Sharia and are still holding Mingora, Kohistan, Shangla, Alpuray etc etc.
And last of all they have the luxury and flexibility of movement and concept in military terms.
If you attack them in Swat- they will go somewhere else. If you attack them somewhere else- they move some where else.
So if you can think with a cool mind- what are you going to do when they appear in Southern Punjab or in Karachi or anywhere else.
And how many are you willing to kill.
And what will you do with the many more that will be coming after that.
THINK. Do not just use foul language to sooth your agitated and afraid soul.
@ democrat
perhaps you would like call it something else-( other than bravery).Their adversaries-( The Americans) would disagree with you vehemently and they have the 9 years of experience to support their point of view. What do you have other than your wishes and whims !
As a person who has been under bombardment by planes and artillery- as person whose relatives have been kidnapped for ransom- as a person who has seen and treated battlefield casualties- as a person whose close relatives are in the army fighting the Talibs-I know a little about what bravery is.
To face overwhelming odds and still go on and not give up- that is bravery which is difficult for SHOP KEEPERS to understand.
William Henley said-
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbow’d.
I know it is difficult for you to fathom stuff like this but
fortitude in the face of adversity is bravery.
If you cannot see the mountain in front of your eyes- then the obvious conclusion is that either you cannot see or you do not wish to see.
@Shimatoree
“THINK. Do not just use foul language to sooth your agitated and afraid soul.”
People are requested to email Hamid Mir and condemn him for inviting moroon Kanjee Naji in his programme on may 7, 2009.. capitaltalk@geo.tv
@shimatoree,
I have not seen PM’s speech but I think I got the gist of it. So, while you are analyzing the aftermath of his actions, you should also try to answer some important questions:
- Who is supporting these Talibans?
- Where are they getting all the money from? I mean you have mentioned that these are poor people, so how are they being fed, clothed and all that then?
- Where are they getting all the ammunition from to fight a trained army? I mean, I am not going to believe a bit on the Taliban’s spokesperson that the amu was stolen from the Pakistani army because based on the amount of amu these people have, that is just not a true statement.
- If these people are so politically savvy then why did they make such a huge political blunder by a) advancing towards and capturing Buner; what was the real motive behind that? b) openly threatening the parliament members before the bill was presented c) started labeling everyone “Kaffir” and …. Because I would not expect all these obvious blunders from politically savvy people as you have tried to portray them.
Money talks
US pledges to provide $1 billion by end of this month
US House panel approves $95.6bn war funding
“…The bill, approved by voice vote, will fund the war costs through Sept 30 and also provide $1.4 billion in economic and security aid to Pakistan…”
Don’t know about the badrooh of Mush but I think I just found the badrooh of Bush
Kayani vows decisive victory over extremists
Side notes:
“We didn’t pull our pants down, really!”
MoU won’t allow India unhindered trade
“This guy is hilarious!”
Amused US leaders stop short of endorsing Zardari
Contradictions apart, we will have to stand by the Army and Govt Of Pakistan.
Army is doing a great work by removing these radical elements from the soil of our beloved Country which will not be hijacked from the bunch of Extremists.
LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
I have serious reservations regarding massive military operation . I know some guys will label me as Taliban supporter which is the case with (Late) Mr. Bush when he introduced “either you are with us or with our enemy”:
1. The timing of the operation is very important because our President in in U.S and Carry/ Lugar bill is in Congress. How we can avoid the lable of mercenary army.
2. What about the human crises which is emerging and it could be one of the worst human crises in Pakistan. Suppose if 01 million people are displaced and PM announced 01 billion aid (100 rs per person) what a joke. No jobs / no shelters and no proper food and no long lasting solution.
3. We can avoid collateral damage if we give ultimatum so that people may leave the sensitive areas. Some may argue that the operation should be a surprise one but I do not agree with this notion because their (Taliban) intelligence is stronger than our army and they can easilty use human shield in the prevailing circumstances.
4. The most important point is that the problem is not a simple one and thing are not in black and white. Taliban consists of many groups i.e some locals, criminals, agents and some sincere with the cause (right or wrong). Taliban still has their roots in common people because of the injustice made to the masses for the last many many years and they are giving them speedy justice (right or wrong) and some people are benefiting from it.
It will be a better excercise if governement may not take this decision in haste and give time to expose so called Taliban (Swati) because it was most important to call a national conference on the issues and the government rightly announced but backtracked on foreign intervention (may be). It was needed that we should fully isolate them. Now what message goes to the people in Pakistan. The news of Drones flying over Malakand Division served what purpose.
Our national leadership should come forward and visit the displaced people to show solidarity with them so that they may not feel isolated. I salute Imran Khan who took the initiative to visit them.
Politicaly strategy was must before military operation and I am sorry to say that is not the case and this will happend if we will not take our decisions at our own. God forbid in 1971 almost the same situation occured when only few people were against military operation in East Pakistan and what happened…… because there was no political strategy and army only know firing and bombing and bombs do not recognize civilian and terrorists. Has the government planned to tackle the back lash of civilian casualities. What about the killing of son of Sufi Muhammad (and what about its backlash when operation is halted).
I welcome any suggestions/arguments
Waheed Buttar
Since Altaf Kalia/Kali Mata is praising Pak Army, every patriot Paki must oppose and criticise Pak Army !
Since USA giving aid to crush Talibans, every patriot Paki must support Talibans (who don’t honour their promises, who behead innocent people, who dig graves of their opponents and hang dead bodies with poles, who destroys schools, who treat women as their property, who destroys tombs, who mercilessly kill innocent civilians by suicide bombings ) !
Since whole world including our neighbours India, Afghanistan, China and Iran are critical of our in-action to curb militancy and extremism, all patriot Pakistanis must unite against the world which actually wants to destroy nukes of Pakistan !
Long Live Pakistan !
at Cogito-Ergo-Sum
I do not understand your username. Any way I could not understand your point of view. We should be specific and give our opinion on case to case basis without any biased approach. If we condemn Taliban for their actions we should also condemn the barbaric approach of U.S and allieds. Who gave them right to bomb any where in the world. Taliban in AFghanistan are fighting for their country but in Pakistan they are fighting against their own country and we should have a different approach to tackle with each of them.
@wbuttar
Cogito Ergo Sum (Latin) = I Think therefore I am !
“Any way I could not understand your point of view” >>> thanks for your understanding
“We should be specific and give our opinion on case to case basis without any biased approach. ” >>> Did I really sound biased ?
“If we condemn Taliban for their actions we should also condemn the barbaric approach of U.S and allieds” >>> Did I really praise US for killing innocent Afghans or Pakistanis ?
“Taliban in AFghanistan are fighting for their country” >>> I really don’t think so, Talibans were created by CIA+ISI to serve American interests. Now Talibans want to re-capture Afghanistan which they haven’t done in eight years and I don’t think they are capable of capturing Kabul through barrel of gun. Taliban beasts are cowards they can only ambush or send suicide bombers to kill their enemies !
and your U.S government is so scared of these beasts and admitting that they are occupying 70% of Afghanistan. What an irony
@dildar, @savage, @ahameed, @yousafkhan
Simply, superb conversation. It is frustrating that you have to keep stating the obvious to counter all the nonsense out there.
@dildar: I am totally with you.
There has been this myth of the invincibility of Talibs put out there ad nauseum, with the backup logic being that 9/10 years of fighting with the mighty U.S. army in Afghanistan has not borne fruit. Then there is the fallacious argument of Pak army not being able to do anything about them for all this time.
These arguments make me laugh! Everybody knows, including those who present these arguments, the reason Talibs were not crushed in Afghanistan is that a huge chunk of aid flowing into Pak to kill the scum was actually being used to support them by elements within the ISI, the Army, and the Civilian beauracracy. There never has been an honest fight between ‘us’ and ‘them’!
It is laughable to present the disunity, treason and/or stupidity of the forces fighting the Taliban as the might, valour, moral superiority or agility of the Taliban.
So it’s complete hogwash to say the Talibs are undefeated as yet because of their higher moral argument, their ‘light infantry tactileness’ versus a heavy elephant like properties of the Pak Army.
Just yesterday I spoke to a man from Hangu, and he told of a ‘talib’ with long hair being killed in battle, and when his body was recovered the army identified him as a junior ranked officer.
The other thing as you know is the fear factor. This man from Hangu while discussing the situation with a friend from Waziristan asked him, ‘look man, why don’t you guys just kill Baitullah yourselves?’ And the reply? The Waziristan chap told him that we can’t even take his name for fear in the area, leave alone collaborate to kill.
So yes, treat this myth of the Taliban’s invincibility for the hogwash it is. These animals can be wiped out once public opinion is solid across the board against them. Once the Army goes after them the way it should. And the sources of their funding need clipping.
Bimbo fantasies are funny. “Don’t worry, BambiRambo is here!”
@nota
Wishful thinking, hopes, army and america…..only time will prove.
@nota
Oh no…I forgot that Talibs are not allowed to watch female tennis players wearing shorts and skorts…..Tauba Astaghfar….we can watch gulli dunda such games are for baboons only.
Awesome decision F**K TALIBANS….Loving Pakistan makes a person true Momin and Muslim…Standing against Pakistan makes you Kafir….Nuke those fucking fake Mullas and Nuke Afghanistan too.
simple principle from Musharaf to zardari begh.irat to deal with US!!!!
Paisa loooo aur kammm vikhaoo. ohhhh nooo NGOs are also doing the same shitttttttt-”Paisa loooo aur kammm vikhaoo”
So my dear government, “you have no way” other than continue “US war against Pashtoon” on our own soil. Shame for everyone who are supporting this war!!!!!!!
It seems Pakiland will have to go through civil war to clean up the dead wood and under brush and spark to set up the inferno has been set. Now time will tell how the Banana Republic without Bananas will turn out…
I can’t believe how stupid this so called Prime Minister of Pakiland looked reading the whatever was on the paper and then in the end changed the into English for Big O! Haven’t the American Masters given them teleprompter to keep it somewhat professional….
When the Pakiland people will stop their leaders from whoring to Americans Zionists?
1,5 Billion Dollar aid amounts to less than Rs2 per Paki per day I think a beggar will not take that……Just think or you guys have no brains…
Your guy have no shame…..Your thuggish Prez is here selling himself for that …
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/pakistan+fury+at+civilians+dead%2C+homes+razed-rs
Is all this co-incidence on the same day (Thursday)!!!
-Obama’s meeting with Zardari, Karzai, and bilawal begh..at…
- Joe baiden with zardari and karzai…
-Operation to continue till Mission accomplished: Zardari…
- “Cope” commandaaars meeting in GHQ to draw “lines” for US War …
- Kayani vows decisive victory over extremists…
- Baboonnn demanding WAR for “PEACE”..
And FINALLY
PM declares all-out war against militants
What a cohesion between all actors on ONE thing-How to execute WAR PLAN!!!!!!
@jojo
“CHOTA LAHORE: ‘I want to pick up a gun and fight the Taliban and the army,’ says shocked Said Quraysh, shaking with rage as he erects a tent in a camp for civilians fleeing Pakistan’s fighting.”…
But Bambi is so happy
@Ray Meem
After reading Gilbo and Co orgy above, are you still wondering???
@zahidbinmustafa
Thanks for the bimbo pic. They gathered a WHOLE FOUR old goats with their (‘designer sunglasses’ — no lady is a lady without them)
@savage said:
”
@zahidbinmustafa
Is it just a coincident that your name sounds like one of those khuarji commanders which are getting wiped out?”
Your wish is possible on pkpolitics forum.
Why is Paki Govt. not honouring agreement with Hazart Moulana Sufi ?, whereas Talibans were honouring the agreement by capturing Buner, Shangla and Dir !
Why Pak Army has started operation against innocent Talibans, their minor crimes were only suicide bombings in which a few hundred insects were killed, they blew only 200+ schools of girls so that girls can have long vacations, they only beheaded a few dozens people so that they can book their place in Paradise !
WTF were those were very big crimes to invite wrath of Army ???
Pakistani nation is against operation in Swat, except traitors such as
PPP —- Damn this is the largest political party of Pakistan
ANP —- Shiiiiit , it got majority of votes in last general elections
MQM —- WTF, Altaf Kalia’s party —- alas, this is the second largest political party of Sind
Sunni Tehreek —– Fvck, they are sectarian, but alas they’ve got sympathies in Sindh and rural Punjab
PML-N —– You too Brutus
I feel that this time military action, like previous in Swat, will also give no results as the civilian casualities will charge the locals against the Army again. I still remember that in early 2008 Kiyani clamied to wipe out all the Talibs in a few weeks time, which was just a day dreaming.
Our Army don’t have laser range finders fitted on UAVs to assist the out dated altilery, which in the end is causing more damage to Civilians than to Talibs. The only affective system left is Cobra gunship helicopter, which also requires ground intelligence for exact targets.
Both Govt. and Sufi should be answerable to these war torn poor poeople. Govt., being a big brother, should have shown greater tolerance and sincereity.
For Sufi every one is wrong and he is the only right person. He seems to be an ineffective person to control the Talibs or he is just a shrewd person who took an opportunity to become popular.
@ nota
I totally agree with you !
Whole Pakistani nation is opposing military operation against innocent Talibans except those “WHOLE FOUR old goats ” and some traitor political parties such as
PPP —- Damn this is the largest political party of Pakistan
ANP —- Shiiiiit , it got majority of votes in last general elections
MQM —- WTF, Altaf Kalia’s party —- alas, this is the second largest political party of Sind
Sunni Tehreek —– – Ooops they are sectarian, but alas they’ve got sympathies in Sindh and rural Punjab
PML-N —– You too Brutus !
Whole Pakistani nation is with Moulana Imran Khan and Moulana Munawwar Hassan as these are the true n patriot Pakistani leaders !
We should demand IK be made PM and MH be made President of Pakistan w/o wasting billions on elections !
They have got the guts to stop drone attacks, and I hope they’ll conquer India too !
Duu Ropay ki rooti
Teen Ropay ka naan
Imran Khan Imran Khan !
@Ergo
Sorry, the ‘four old goats’ got you riled up
Just because majority are sinners, sin does not loose it’s status.
BTW: Ever wonder why Shaw said “All great truths begin as blasphemies”? Hell, even Quran is considered as such by most humans
Wish they would atleast use their own words….
Operation to continue till mission accomplished: Zardari
I am waiting for Zardaro to pull this stunt …
@ nota
“Sorry, the ‘four old goats’ got you riled up ” >>>> not at all
Wat you think ab’t Blasphemy Law ?
Lets hope the nation can unite to support the military for a quick operation and emphasis is geared more towards getting back things to normalcy. Now having said that, it soo unfortunate, to have any sympathy for this govt…………..AZ goes to the US, treated like junglee khutta desperate to look for a bone thrown at him from the US. What sad times for our nation, we are treated in the category of Afghanistan, this itself says how we have failed and gone down in the last 62 years as a country.
Amazing…….the president goes there, says not a word about Drone attacks, which incidently has killed over 700 innocent people. The bekhari nation as we have become, can we not even ask for compensation from the Americans for this loss of life? Seriously, I cant think of any other country in the world, where someone comes and bombs your people, and the govt says not a word in fact goes to kiss their very asses without even raising some of the important issues the Americans have compounded us with. The reality this trip by AZ and his loser pack was nothing more than to reinforce and plead the Americans for survival of their government.
A million plus people displaced, wow, we truly have become like Afghanistan when the Soviets invaded, anyways, these are the times and my question is that are any of the political parties involving themshelves for some humanitarian services i.e. deploying their party workers to raise money and help for these innocent people? All the smuck politicians love to come and talk BS on tv, what are they doing to motivate their party supporters to play a proactive role for charity raising, social support etc? Ironically, not a single TV channel has shown any information where one can atleast donate money for use towards the well being of these people. Afterall these are also Pakistanis………………..
P.S. If anyone knows of any charity where one can make donations for usage of funds towards the IDP, please advise.
hmmmmz so lets see army been wiping out these talibaan since wat 2003 now? and oops they keep failing. Remind me of american terrorism in Iraq every few months they kill Al-qaeda #2 even jon stewart had to crack a joke abt that.
The funniest part is halbrook in congress admitted that Zardari has assured him that the nifaz-e-adl was doomed when he signed it and he is pleased to see that Army now taking action.
Dollars lo aur maroo apney logoon ko — Carry on govt abhi jab apki writ yahan qayam hojaey to bata dijiye ga, karachi jaisey mahaan peace loving baqool haroon rasheed mulk ki behtreen political party mqm ke shehar main bhi writ qaim hogee:p
@ nota
“Just because majority are sinners, sin does not loose it’s status. ” >>> LOL only Talibans and their supporters are pious and all others are sinners !!
@ deltapak
“that are any of the political parties involving themshelves for some humanitarian services i.e. deploying their party workers to raise money and help for these innocent people? ” >>>>> WTF, Altaf Kalia’s party sent humanitarian aid to IDPs
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=76683
@Ergo Jhantoo
Wow, you read my comment twice at least. Am afraid you will have to read it again ’cause you still didn’t get it
@shimatoree
good point re: taliban’s tactical advantage.. but do you think that the only way forward is ‘muzakiraat’ ?
do you think it will help if the state is able to re establish its authority in some way?
@Cogito-Ergo-Sum
Thanks for the update…………I have to confess than that they have done the right thing (personally I cant stand Altaf Hussain and serious issues with how MQM has operated) but credit goes to MQM to take lead unlike the rest. It seems MQM plays smartly and times things well……………..I hope other parties would do the same.
@razakhan
“hmmmmz so lets see army been wiping out these talibaan since wat 2003 now?”
Actually the army and their bosses have been “wiping out these talibaan” since October 7, 2001 (not counting the cruise missile attacks and sanctions before that). It was on May 01, 2003 that Bush declared “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq as well (the op in Afghanistan was supposedly completed way before then)
@nota
“@Ergo Jhantoo” >>>
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument to the person”, “argument against the person”) consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
@Ergo
Ah, the old favourite is brought out once again.
(BTW, don’t give yourself the credit. We haven’t had the start of an argument yet — not even close — for you to bring out that old reliable
)
@ nota
““@Ergo Jhantoo”’ >>> Dirty language w/o any argument at all ????
Is there any specific reason for that ???
@nota
oh may be your father used to have such excellent vocabulary and may be he used to call you “Jhantoo”
@nota
“nota said:
@Ergo Jhantoo”
and
“@Ergo
Ah, the old favourite is brought out once again.
(BTW, don’t give yourself the credit. We haven’t had the start of an argument yet — not even close — for you to bring out that old reliable )”
YOUN BHI “KAM AAMAIZ” THA MOHSIN WO ES SHAHR KAE LOGON MAIN
LAIKIN MERAY SAMNAY AKAR AUR BHI KUCH ANJAN “HOWA”
@dv
Quote “good point re: taliban’s tactical advantage.. but do you think that the only way forward is ‘muzakiraat’ ? ”
In my view there is only one way- and that is legitimacy and thus credibility. Now let us examine what we have here-
1. PPP has lost any credibility if it ever had any once it became a tool of the Americans through the NRO, then BB’s death , then of all things Zardari becoming a president through back room politics-( inspite of the shrill protestations of their supporters).
2.The Army has lost all credibility once Musharraf capitulated on Spet 12th 2001. Kayani had gotten back some credibility but he has also lost it now that it has become obvious that he also is in the American’s pocket.
3. CJ Iftikhar had credibility but it is fast eroding since he has avoided taking up the tough decisions about NRO and Nov 3rd actions.
4. Nawaz Shareef did have credibility but it is also eroding because of his increasing associations with the Americans.
5. The good that has come out of Swat is that the Talibs have also lost credibility-( political) as Mullah Sufi started giving statements about the power that he does not have.
You must have heard the old saying about Salt Mines- that who so ever went in became SALT-
That is the crux of the problem with the Americans. Anyone who is even slightly thought to be OK to them is going to be dead-( politicaly) Does that give legitimacy to the Religious parties ? NO They lost all their credibility with Musharraf and MMA and thanks to Fazlu Boy.
We are dealing with a very severe crisis of confidency- WHO to believe ? Everyone has lied and continues to lie.
Just look at this blog. There are a lot of people who simply ignore what is happening, and just keep parroting their whims.
During the 1965 and 1971 War with India- I used to joke with my fellow officers that the Indians were as bad as we were and that was our saving grace !
So now I would say that the Talibs are as incompetent as the Govt of PP and their associates.
We need someone who can be trusted and believed by those that oppose the Govt and those who support. The present lot is finished. It has to be someone new and they have to move fast to show the public that they mean what they say. If that were to happen- then the Talibs will believe him too and we would be able to solve the problem. That is the crus of the matter.
Thank you.
@shimatoree
You fought in the 65 and 71 wars? Respect!
By the way, were you ever President of Pakistan
Just kidding.
But seriously, do you think the Army operation will succeed this time around or just fizzle out leaving behind more horrific atrocities. What’s your assessment of the Jawans’ morale .
@ Gul
Quote- “So yes, treat this myth of the Taliban’s invincibility for the hogwash it is. These animals can be wiped out once public opinion is solid across the board against them. Once the Army goes after them the way it should. And the sources of their funding need clipping. ”
Once the public opinion is solid behind the army- and PRAY when will that happen ? Sort of like to 20 plus years in Vietnam !
Once the Army goes after them THE WAY IT SHOULD ! Oh. who orders them to do things properly and who will determine if they are doing that properly or not.
And once their sources of funding are clipped ! And who PRAY will do that ? And how.
If you keep doing the same- you will have the same results.
“We need someone who can be trusted and believed by those that oppose the Govt and those who support. The present lot is finished. It has to be someone new and they have to move fast to show the public that they mean what they say.”
I hope you are not asking for miracles. Where does this “someone” come from??
Did you read Ayaz Amir’s piece today? His “voice of sanity” appears too full of ifs-and-buts:
“…There is no room for half-measures now. Matters must be taken to their logical conclusion. Only if the army acquires the upper hand – and this is not going to be easy-will space be created for genuine negotiations. At the same time we have to tell the Americans that Pakistan deserves better than the pittance in the Kerry-Lugar bill. But for this we need leadership which Zardari, alas, and the knights of his roundtable are in no position to provide. Therein lies our predicament….”
(Of course for him the savior is Nawaz and solution only possible after the “success” of the army operation in acquiring “the upper hand”)
@shimatoree
didn’t know u fought in 65 n 71, Heartfelt thanks and gratitude for ur service for the country. May ALLAH reward u, all i can offer is simple words of thanks.
Agreed with all ur points u mentioned in several posts. I dun see the way out, cuz way out of this requires Leadership and ppl united (atleast majority) behind that leadership. Today’s chaos is easy to blame on Military intervention, USA and Indian designs, inept politicians and corrupt elites. But for me the most culpable for Pak situation are pak awwam who always choose the path of least resistance whenever some dictator took power, or whenever some inept politicians keep screwing with them. This nation, atleast a sizeble portion, choose Ayub over fatima jinnah. We refuse to learn we refuse to educate ourselves. Even when it was obvious PPP has cut deal with USA and was always in talk with Mushy, the ppl still keep saying benazir tere jaanisar baishumar baishumar. we get the leadership we deserve. So lets blame ourselves 1st.
@razakhan,
—
….we get the leadership we deserve. So lets blame ourselves 1st…..
—
That is absolutely true.
For me IK was the only hope for the peace negotiation. Now if he is also giving up his stand then we should be ready for the division of pakistan or as razakhan said civil war.
We will never win this battel. Yes the weapon industry won again. So you idiots get ready for spending more and more money for army budget instead of education and development.
@shimatoree
Agree with your assessment re: crisis of confidence and lack of leadership.. but i’m sure you don’t expect some messiah to rise out of the east holding the panacea to all our ills in his hip pocket??
It appears to me that the only solution is a joint military/civilian operation – which re-establishes the writ of the state whilst simultaneously working at successively integrating the region and its people into the mainstream through human development initiatives.
@nota-
I do not from where the Messiah will come. It seems to me that we have been for millenia waiting and hoping for SOMEONE to solve our difficulties. And when we do not have a Messiah- we MAKE dead people into MAKE believe Messiahs.-( Jinnah, Bhutto ZAB and BB etc ). I am hoping that the turmoil will bring someone but turmoil has a bad habbit-( in Pakistan) of bringing the wrong people-( a la Altaf Husain).
I do read Ayaz Amir as soon as his article comes out. I do not agree with him all the time but he is from Ghora Gali-( Lawrence College) and so are a lot people in my family. I enjoy his Language- I hope the Taliban will allow that !
can anyone help me identify those people who were against Musharraf and now wnat GIlani and Army to continue the policy?
@Calyps
That’s an easy one: all baboos and gulbos
@shimatoree
“I do not from where the Messiah will come. ”
Neither do I…
“I enjoy his Language- I hope the Taliban will allow that !”
Here’s a few oldies I really enjoyed:
Ditto
Faith knows no religious boundaries
About the dedication of Hezbollah’s leadership, suffice it to say that Hasan Nasrallah’s own son died fighting the Israeli army in Lebanon in 1997. An exchange of bodies took place a year later. The late Eqbal Ahmed (who also wrote for this paper) wrote this for the Al-Ahram weekly at the time:
“Sayed Hassan Nasrallah entered the hall in solemn dignity accompanied by Jawad, his teenage son. He stopped before each coffin and offered the Fatiha (the Muslim equivalent of the Lord’s Prayer) until he reached the one marked 13. He beckoned to an aide and spoke to him in a whisper. The aide summoned two workers of the Islamic Health Association, a Hezbollah outfit. They opened the coffin exposing a body wrapped in a white shroud. Sheikh Nasrallah’s eyes closed, his lips trembled as he offered the Fatiha. Slowly, he bent over and tenderly stroked the head of Hadi Nasrallah, his eldest son who was 18 when he died in battle on 13 September (1997). Jawad, the younger son, stood still and pale next to his father. A deep silence fell on the room while (Hasan Nasrallah’s) right hand rested on his son’s chest.”
Is such a leadership easy to defeat?
How many F-16s does Hezbollah have?
Time was when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto sent Pakistani fighter pilots to Syria during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war ( a mistake I can’t imagine Air Chief Marshal Tanvir making in a hurry), something which the Syrians have not forgotten. Now we can’t even bring ourselves to say the right words about Lebanon. These are not proud days to be a Pakistani.
Hezbollah has no F-16s but it is running rings around one of the best armies in the world. We can have 500 F-16s in our air force but given the crisis of resolve we face, we will remain a country ready to jump at the sound of a single phone call.
And here is some Ayaz from Aug 1999. Guess he wasn’t PML-N then.
“…The tragedy is that while the intellectual and moral calibre of the English-speaking governing classes was always low, that of the desi crowd which has assaulted Islamabad on the strength of the heavy mandate is even lower. Between them Pakistan’s goose is being cooked…. “
@shimatoree
Thank you for serving our nation in uniform. I always believed job of Army or law enforcement men is radically different from rest of the society. It may not be as challenging as few others in some aspects but the sheer commitment to lay your in the line of duty has no parallels. In Pakistan cuz of martialaws, interference in political affairs and extra priviliges that Army enjoys in every spehere of life their role is not given due respect in society. But that doesn’t change the fact that our soldiers like soldiers in rest of the world are ready to lay down their lives for our protection and for that they need all the appreciation in the world.
I don’t agree with your analysis on lost credebility. Sherry Rehman was least credeible on March 14th and most credeible on March 15th right after she resigned. In politics and may be in life as well you can loose and win credebility in no time. I also think your yard stick any one who is close to Washington is not credible is misleading. In past 62 years everyone has worked closely with Washington politicians both secular and religious, GHQ, insurgents and sepratists like Taliban, ANP, BNP, MQM. So if you use this yard stick there is no credibility in Pakistan. US was super power before 90′s and sole super power since then. Pakistan has been sitting in US block since day 1. So this yard stick of credibility is flawed.
@shimatoree
@nota
@gv
oho mayoos nah hotey, her kaam main ALLAH ki maslehat, her kharabi main acchai ka rasta bhi hota hai. Think of this way stage getting set for either Imam Mehdi or return of Real messiah.
Pewasta reh shajar se umeed-e-bahar rakh;)
@gv
may be since u agnostic (and i really get confuse abt these terms, atheist agnostic etc etc) just think global warming will soon take care of everything
anyhoo cheers;)
can anyone help me identify those people who were against Musharraf and now wnat GIlani and Army to continue the policy?
Why is media and public all of a sudden supporting Army? Are we now with the people who kill Pakistani? are we are okay to say go for drones attack?
wake up guys wake up .. The US govt. is laughing at us they way media have helped trance you guys in favour of them and aganist the SWAT and NWFP people!!!
@shimatoree
So we are in the same boat, one of my cousins working as SSG officer just left Swat after spending there more than a year and another just went in, and guess what they are also Pakhtuns. Also my relatives are living in Swat and ya do you remember the suicide attack in Peshawar check post in which a couple, their only son and their orphan nephew died while the other kid lost his eyes. They were going to school and they were also happened to be my relatives.
It is just your wishful thinking.
They ARE very sharp politically and they are learning as they go along. The Army accepts that and knows that.
Yae ya, that are why right after the agreement with ANP they went straight to conquer Shangla and Buner and ruined the entire sympathetic environment, built for them by SISTERS like you.
Do you think after violation of the peace agreement, there left any solution?
I don’t think that Americans or any other oppressive forces will ever be able to win the war in Afghanistan. But I do believe that Taliban in Afghanistan are in different shoes. They have the morale base to fight, but Pakistani Taliban have lost their credibility (Thanks God you agree on this at least) and if you have relatives in Army you might be well aware than that it is India who is backing them and that is why Sufi has to denounce Kashmir Jihad.
Yes it does because I know the real people who are/were the witnesses/victims of the viciousness of Taliban.
So what is your solution, sit back and let them do what they want to do… Don’t you think we did the ‘MUZAKIRAAT’ too? Do you know what the new demands of Sufi are?
Release those who were caught in Harichand suicide attack red handed.
@shimatoree
It seems your argument is that since everyone is discredited (and there’s truth in that) there’s nothing we can do but wait for some messiah.
To me that is no solution. You are presenting no alternatives, only criticizing everything and everyone around.
I have faith in struggle, struggle to improve our systems and institutions so we might be able to fight the ills plaguing us. There is no alternative. The continuing process of self evaluation, self accountability, and self improvement (the vehicles being ongoing education, awareness, institution building, democratic process etc) is the only way forward.
Just lashing out at the failures evident is not going to solve anything.
Taliban , Faujjjj-Bhai Bhai
@dildar
if u want to be taken seriously and wana debate plz get the facts right. u said
“Do you think after violation of the peace agreement, there left any solution?”
Richard Halbroke addressing congress admitted that Zardari had assured him that peace deal will fall through. U mean to tell me an agreement signed for peace and didn’t even given a chance absolve the govt? History of agreements by Pakistani govt and local insurgencies that have been broken at the whim of not Pakistani ppl, thier eleceted leaders or military by of USA.
On a side note plz accept my condolences on loss of ur relatives, May ALLAH bless them and reside them in paradise (ameen sum ameen)
@Gul
just bombarding with jest an’t gonna solve the problem either. After the current usa yatra do u expect anything good from this govt.
1 – Transit route to India
2 – No custom duty for trade that Afgahnistan does through Pak ports.
3 – Who knows how much truth is there in news regarding the nuclear secrets given to usa. Like they say u need a mole to built a hill. So many western media has reported that.
U want me to support this govt?
@razakhan
you sould like Bhutto after the Tashkent agreement between Ayub Khan and the Indian PM Lal Bahadur Shastri (aka Baal Baraabar Shastri) after the 65 war. The indian PM died after the meeting and bhutto claimed that he died because of happiness as Ayub Khan sold half Pakistan to India.
The very same Bhutto, in his hunger for power, went on to sell half of Pakistan (now Bangladesh) after 70 election.
@Raza
Who gave the chance to this greedy dog (zardari) to go break the agreement?
Don’t you think it was the one who is suffering from verbal diarrhea , the Muslim Khan, and what about Sufi, don’t you see him responsible?
PM is so kind , he said ” aqalliaton ka jeena doobhar kar dia gaia thaa ” why he is so late , why he did not waked up early when innocnet muslims were bombed,butchered and tourchered by those terrorists in the area and all over Pakistan?. why our rulers are not taking any dissession by there own, always waiting for instructions from there Masters……..Aey Allah Pakistan ko mukhlis aor azad hukmaran ataa farmaa, ghulaam naheen…Aameen………
@aimalkhan
What happened to batkhela.com?
@dildar
batkhela.com?
@aimalkhan
If my memory serves me right Bhutto was main architect of tashqand agreement ayub to aiwain he badnaam hoa lol – Trust me am no fan of bhutto.
@dildar
So cuz they had verbal diarrhea we should start operation bro? costing so many lives and so many refugees inside our own country couldn’t we use that verbal diarrhea to our own advantage and split up the opposition by using some to ally with us thus decreasing thier numbers isolating them then eliminating them, compare to just use jet to bombard indiscrimantly? Govt should show more brains compare to some illetrate morons no? If verbal diarrhea can cause this I wonder what ur stand is for Karachi and MQM? Altaf hussain’s address can easily be read as causing racial hatred and divisions and inciting violence, his bhashans to pushtoon ghaiarat and punjabiyaat, how abt we eliminate him and do an operation in karachi like the one we doing in SWAT? Liyari basically run by gangs do u know what grave security threat is that?
@razakhan
You need to get your facts straight. Zardari was not the only one who was uncertain about this peace deal. Majority of those who supported it were as uncertain as Zardari. According to peace deal or NAR in reponse to few Qazis Taliban had to lay down their arms. Do you or anyone here believes that all that brutality throat slitting suside attacks by Taliban was for few judges/Qazis? Gov entered in this deal to expose Taliban their real motives and to marshall public opinion against them. Don’t start this crap deal wasn’t given a chance. Gov was in process of appointing Qazis and Taliban instead of disarming were spreading out to Buner and Dir – clear violation of deal. Instead of lecturing others plez get your facts straight.
@razakhan
Not just the Tashkent agreement, Bhutto was also the one who initiated Operation Gibralter which led to 65 war and the rest is history.
Point being, why do u think that all the world, including the current govt, is conspiring against Pakistan? What do you think is the disadvantage of having trade with India and/or Afghanistan and letting them use our ports?
PM said golden words while addressing yesterday at inogration of a book that “always it was claimed by Dictators that silent mejority is with them.” It is my request to “PkPolitics” to search the results of Ellections in 1970,77,and up to now What was the voters turn out and how many persentage of the total votes were taken by So-Called Democretic Parties.As I understand in 1970 PPP got only 37% votes and voters turn out was 56% ( remember it was united Pakistan’s election result) and this Party became the king of broken & injured Pakistan…After that on every election voters turnout never reached more than 35% …and each fool politician is claiming the leadership of “SOLA KAROR AWAM”. Can someone please correct me if I am wrong…….Thanks
@aimalkhan
I have no problem per se with tarde. My issue with this is following
1 – Afghanistan gets custom free trade at our ports and use our trade routes, what do we get in return? The security situation in Afghanistan still dun allow to trade freely to central asian countries. If u remember one reason BB supported Taliban was to secure trade routes, right now even the trucks going with Nato supplies are not been protected from armed gangs who exacts a price to let them through. So again what we gain and plz dun talk abt future gains, USA planning to stay in there and its non-ending war.
2 – Since we being so generous with India to allow it to trade to afghanistan do u think it will stay only there we allowing india to reach central asia, with security provided by indian troops already in afghanistan, so guess wat we loose again. Next since we been so kind to Afghanistan with refugees and trade why dun Afghanistan do a fav trade partner with us? Dun our industries need that boost? Imagine how much will it help our economy. Couple that with security nightmare it will create for Pak giving routes to india through pak will these routes will only be used for trades, only a naive person will believe that.
3 – We have problem with India on Kashmir, 4get Kashmir right now. India been building dams all over occupied Kashmir u have seen teh result of this with ur own eyes, a flood or lack of water, we have sir creek dispute, no day goes by that India dun bashes us. Why are we doing all this for india, atleast in return can we have the diplomatics talks back on the table with firm committment to solve all issues? and with same since we being so nice to Afghanistan how abt resolving duerand line dispute?
@Kashif
yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwns, shuuuuu makkhii go away hate ur buzzing when u get brains come back and talk
@razakhan
I have seen your marvelous brain that twists the facts for extreme right arguments. You can see MQM militancy but same thing coming from right Taliban or JI seems revolutionary to you. When we point out obvious double standard your best defence is to label us Indian/Kafir/American/Jewish agents …
@razakhan
Brilliant. Lets just cut off all the connections with the world. No trade, no relations with any of our neighbours whatsoever. No need to develop, build, bring jobs or even educate our people. Instead we should prepare all our children with “Holier than thou” mentality so that they may think that everyone is Pakistans enemy because we are muslim and have nuclear bomb and these nuclear bombs must be protected even if we, as nation, have to starving for the next 1000 years.
We are fool as Nation and our leaders are know this very well so they make us fool every time………………………plese wake up…..wake up…..wake up…change your leader ship..chang your politics….rase your hands and say to Allah ….plese forget us ,,we were wrong ,,forget our mistakes,,we need Your help ,,plese help us Allah……………………..It is my request to all Pakistani people……….plese change your self…change your mind set….be a good Muslims and good pakistani…….result will come soon in front of you..Insha-Allah.
@@aimalkhan
I have no problem per se with tarde. My issue with this is following….
Thats wat i wrote, lemme say again I have np with trade but should be bilateral, how abt reading what i wrote b4 going on.
dont look towords Army,Primeminister, Presedent..etc.they cant do any thing without help of Allah… so we all look towords Allah…for that we follow his orders and act on that.
@ Gul
In order to treat a patient with life threatening disease- the first step has to be recognition of the problem- both the nature of the problem and the severity of the problem.
In human diseases- there ARE situations when no treatment is possible.
In the conditions of nations- such situations can arise. I am not sure if that is the case in Pakistan- but anyone who is interested in the welfare of this nation muct look at those that claim to provide cure with some degree of skepticism. This is esp: true for those who have been tried and found wanting.
I would like to have a crystal ball and suggest a magical transformation-
but I am only an ordinary citizen who lacks all the special qualities needed .
I look in the miror and find myself not impressive at all. But I do have eyes and a functioning brain and so I describe what I see.
If I can come up with a solution- I shall keep to myself so that I can a billion or two like those before me ! Ha Ha Ha !
This post was blocked previously and I am pasting it again.
@shimatoree,
I have not seen PM’s speech but I think I got the gist of it. So, while you are analyzing the aftermath of his actions, you should also try to answer some important questions:
- Who is supporting these Talibans?
- Where are they getting all the money from? I mean you have mentioned that these are poor people, so how are they being fed, clothed and all that then?
- Where are they getting all the ammunition from to fight a trained army? I mean, I am not going to believe a bit on the Taliban’s spokesperson that the amu was stolen from the Pakistani army because based on the amount of amu these people have, that is just not a true statement.
- If these people are so politically savvy then why did they make such a huge political blunder by a) advancing towards and capturing Buner; what was the real motive behind that? b) openly threatening the parliament members before the bill was presented c) started labeling everyone “Kaffir” and …. Because I would not expect all these obvious blunders from politically savvy people as you have tried to portray them.
@ Kashif
Someday after all the fighting is done- you will have to sit down and talk with those that are being described as Taliban or Animals or terrorists. Any solution will depend on credibility and that will depend on legitimacy
When you do that- if you have been in the American camp- and that goes for the generic term-( not you the person Kashif) you will have no legitimacy nor any credibility with those adversaries. I am not making this up or wishing for it but THIS is FACT.
The BIG problem I am seeing coming down the road is-
either pakistan will be ruled by a re-incarnation of Saddam Hussain and his police state-
-( The Republic of Fear) or will be in constant state of civil War between ethnic groups, Sectarian groups and so on.
The fact that Pakistan has been in the American Camp since the days of Liaqat Ali Khan is irrelevent- that was in the past. Very difficult decisions have to be made by who so ever will be in the position.
And no one is recommending an isolationist stance but some one some time will have to stand up for Pakistan rather just saying but not doing so.
I would recommend a political study of the French Revolution-( if you have not done so already) esp: the period when Robespierre was in command.
I am very pessimistic because of what I see every day when I go to the bazar and see the filth in the streets. Perhaps I AM a pessimist .
@ nota
I guess I just like the sound of the word Messiah-( and the music too-Handel)
What Hizbullah did should be lesson that should be taught at Kakul and staff college in Quetta. Esp: the concept part of it.
Ayaz Amir is also looking for a Messiah though he does not say so.
But he does write well .
@ mbokhari
The Morale issue is split.
During the Bajaur operation which I am told is very successful from a military stand point- the MORALE across the board was good , better with the filed commanders than the jawans but it was still good. The reason was that the Taliban commanders had a sizable number of people from outside the area such as Tajiks and Uzbecks from Afghanistan. The Pakistan army has some very bright and excellent people in spite of what you read on this blog from certain people . I can tell you this- when it comes to intellect they are as good or better than any other fighting men
The Morale amongst the jawans can best be described as Ok but it is good amongst the field commanders . The main problem is that the Jawans feel that they are having to fight their own people . A lot of people will deny that but look it- they are Pushtoons, they are Muslims and they are from the same areas.
I think they have been put in a difficult situaion and after all they are not machines- they are human beings subject to all emotional ups and downs following their actions which in their case result in death and destruction.
@dildar
I am very sorry to hear about the brutal death of your relatives at the hands of the Taliban suicide bomber. Please do accept my heartfelt condolences. I am sure that you are proud of your two cousins, SSG officers, who are serving on the front. Please do tell them that the patriotic Pakistanis are fully supporting their service to the country and will never forget that they are risking their lives for us.
I would like to take this opportunity to tell my brothers and sisters who care about Pakistan that we all need to forget our differences and support our armed forces who are risking their lives so that we can remain free of the evil Talibans. All of us need to also financially help out the thousands of people who have had to relocate to other parts of NWFP to escape the fighting. Remember, these poor people have taken the brunt of the Taliban’s evil medicine and it is incumbent upon all of us to help them in anyway we can.
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD – PAKISTANI ARMED FORCES ZINDABAD – DEATH TO THE EVIL TALIBAN
Both Zardari and Hamid Karzai are requesting US leadership to stop air raides. The colateral demage is multiplying support for alqaeda and Taliban. I hope they will come up with new strategy thats effective and addresses these legitimate concerns…
@ Amir Hameed
1. Who is supporting the Taliban- where are they getting
the money ?
Answer-
1. Complex and complicated but very well organsied network that involves quite a few very rich donors from the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia who are vicariously getting back at the West.
2. Donations from public through organizations throughout Pakistan, e,g; from every shop keeper.
3. Taxes from trucking business and the drug business in Afghanistan.
4. In Peshawer if you want anyone dead you need about 300 dollars. That is the cost.
Who does that- well there are lots of Afghan refugees who have no resources and there are a lot of locals who are in the same business and will do that for 300 dollars. 300 dollars is 24000 ruppees. That can feed a family of 6 for a while even in these times.
WHERE are they getting all the ammunition and firearms from
Answer-
After the Russians left – a tremendous amount of arms and ammunition was left in Afghanistan both of the Russians which they left but also of the arms supplied to the Mujaheddeen by Saudi Arabia and USA, Egypt etc. Most of this stuff consisted of AK-47 rifles of differing types , RPGs of different types, 50 caliber machine guns, recoil less rifles for anti tank work and various types of mortars . They do steal from the Pakistan army depots and after the army abandones their arms. Plus there is an arms factory in Dara Adam Khel where my cousins and their cousins make the weapons.
Regarding the political capabilities of the Talibs- why did they make a political blunder by invading Buner.
Answer-
my comment was in a relative sense- meaning that many people are describing them as animals, Jahil, ignorant and so on.
They are not any of those things- but why did they invade Buner ?
There are probably two reasons-
1. Someone amongst them got cockey and thought that they could do what they were incapable of. This happens when you succeed beyond your expectations-( as they did succeed in Swat).
2. They had intelligence that the army was coming after them and they tried to Pre-empt that move to get themselves in a better tactical position.
One of the great misconceptions everyone has is that the Taliban are a cohesive and well organised bunch- sort of like PPP or PML-N or MQM where Zardari-( or NS or Altaf) says jump and everyone jumps.
The Taliban movement is a collection of different totaly independent groups who work togather but do not follow a supreme commander-( if there is any). Like I said each group is an independent cell and operates independently.
That is the reason as to why they have NOT been more effective but that is also a reason why the organised armed forces like Nato or USA or Pakistan Army has and will continue to have difficulty in defeating them . That is the reason why the Russians lost against them and that is reason why I am pessimistic about the Gilani speech and his expectations.
When every thing is said and done- it always boils down to the ARISTOCRACY of INTELLECT . The smart and determined guy always wins no matter what. And INJUSTICE is a great stimulation for the intellect .
But the what does the word SMART really mean here ?
It means some one who fluid in their thinking.
The Taliban in spite of their desire for a rigid system of Sharia are the most felxible and fluid when it comes to military tactics and strategy.
As a student of military history- I am amazed at this dichotomy where a rigid and doctrinaire group of people function in the most fluid manner .
But then the Pushtoon is a born soldier and it is in his instincts and his very being to think about fighting and battle and war. If there is no work , and nothing else to keep them occupied- well then what is available and appeals to the heart and soul is accepted and there we go again.
” Its a state of mind that goes back 100,000 years . All through their history they have lived an existence where men dominate and are still living that state except now they are equipped with the most modern weapons” The Pushtoon Warriors have always been facing great armies . Even though some might wish to disparage the Taliban but not matter wheather we like it or not- it is the Pushtoon Taliban who form heart and soul of this movement-whatever the label.
@nota: “Jhantoo”
hahaha! you’re losing it man! what was it? the last video @mbokhari posted? Don’t tell me you’re going to go the way of our ‘villager friend’ and start an anti @mbokhari weblog …
who knows, maybe you’ll get more than two other Pakistani blogs pointing to it this time around… lol WINK WINK!
Btw, I’m not sure if you tried to imply up there that this @cogito guy was me or not, the way you linked specifically to me, it seemed that way.. Like I said before, I don’t need to play these kindergarten games to take care of your punk ass! So, You should know better (let me just leave it at that). Also, if a lot of people are pointing out to you that you’re engaging in ad-hominem attacks, then is it not possible that they might be right and that you ARE in fact trying to argue by either making lame personal attacks or by posting google searches as “rebuttals” ??
Stop embarrassing yourself. It is painful to watch.
@razakhan: “This nation, atleast a sizeble portion, choose Ayub over fatima jinnah. ”
Although I think the Pakistani “awwam” apathy is a big factor in the current mess we find ourselves in, I think more than the awam — who never were given power — it is the sock-puppet, kleptocratic and shameless foreign lackey of a ruling class that we got here which is to blame.
I do not agree with your assessment that “this nation” chose Ayub over Mohtarma Fatimah Jinnah. You are assuming that the results of that highly rigged “election” were somehow valid and that it was indeed the Pakistani awam who rejected her.
Yes, they did not come out on the streets and throw that son of a whore out on the streets, that is true, and that is where your accusation of our apathy holds some truth, but to say they elected Ayub over Fatimah Jinnah is tantamount to calling that election “free & fair” and it was everything BUT.
@shimatoree: thanks for a detailed analysis of the situation from a ‘feet on the ground’/ ‘military perspective’ .. .although I do not agree with the assertions re: the ethnicity of the talibs and the conclusions that you drew from it viz-a-viz their ultimate moral(e) edge over the jawans fighting them. But @dildar kinda went over those ‘objections’ as it were.
Funny that you mention Robspierre. :-S
I doubt though that it would be religious civil war or a popular revolution (talibs are NOT IT from what I can see.) Your fears of a “Saddam like figure” may come to pass though …
But I think the mode may be different. The only thing that can get the west a ‘long lasting’ autocracy is the ‘Saudi Model” aka … Heniously Repressive Theocratic Autocracy (all in the name of Islam of course) … and this is where I think the fanatic Wahabi/Deobandi talibs come in…
If they get to split Pakistan into little ‘emirates’, then Pakistan gets defanged and the west and India get a bunch of little balkanized states dependent on and necessarily acquiescent to the demands of the ‘powers that be’ (this will include India).
If they don’t, at the very least they will create a grotesque talib regime in Pakistan on the old afghani talib model with the whole Saudi-Repression Model of control thrown in, and it will be a stalinistic dictatorship (headed by an “Amir” and a fake ass “shura” and all) controlled through a double proxy, but still in the hands of the west (depriving China and Russia) just like “Saudi” Arabia is right now.
One of my pet (developing) conspiracy theories is that the US is trying to carve Pakistan out via its proxies aka “The Gulf States” and their proxies aka “The Taliban” … The idea maybe to create a ‘paper kingdom’ or ‘paper khilafa’ or some kind of fako ‘emirate’ which will keep the Pakistani people under its heniously repressive thumb while fulfilling the geo-politically strategic objectives of the US and the West at large.
Although, learning from the past, one would expect them to not do something so stupid for fear of massive blowback (it could happen for realz yo!)
@zahidbinmustafa said:
>>Is it just a coincident that your name sounds like one of those khuarji commanders which are getting wiped out?”
>Your wish is possible on pkpolitics forum.
I totally agree with you, had it not been only on pkpolitics it would have been much easier to suppress my opinion, any teen talib could have accomplish this mission on your command commander zahid bin mustafa.
@TeeKay
I call MEMRIBo skirty and you come back with:
“you calling ME a skirt?”
I address No Cognito and you come back with:
‘Btw, I’m not sure if you tried to imply up there that this @cogito guy was me”
If I wanted to address you I would. Are you really that desparate for attention?
How’s HALD going?
@aftabahmed
parties getting majority vote in the elections are the representative of 100% of the public even if 20% of the total votes were cast. The reason; I give a sh!t to those 80% who didn’t bother to come out to vote and then blame the govt for all their ills. either vote or $hut up, it is as simple as that!!
@Ghost Of TK
The word MORALE I used simply in terms of confidence level and their very firm belief-(fanaticism or such)-in their cause-
- as compared with the over all morale of the Jawans who have the same problems that I have-( about anything) – that is doubts, fears, questions, concerns etc about everything around and in their life.
In war- that sort of Fanaticism is helpful-( in my view).
I must express my amusement at all this talk about Pakistan breaking up and either the Talibs taking over or some other disaster scenario some of which I commented upon.
The problem that I am most concerned about in life is-
Lack of decisiveness . History repeatedly tells us that making decisions-( even wrong ones ) is far better than dilly dallying .
Making decisions is two things at once in my view-
1. Making the actual decision
2.By making the decision in a quick and specific manner you seend a message to everyone that there is ggoing to be a REACTION to whatever they do- and THAT puts them in a place where they have to worry -( and dilly dally)-about what you might do . So you essentially start affecting their decision making capacity.
For making decisions like that- you need intellect and courage so you do not lose one moment.
Oh ! my two favourites from the French Revolution are
Comte de Mirabeau- and Robespierre but esp the later since he was an intellectual and though a small man with a squeeky voice- in terms of intellectual honesty he was a LION.
Mirabeau on the other hand said one thing that is-( for me ) very profound and I paraphrase here -
” In life it is always the moment that determines what happens. Majority of leaders dilly dally- the moment is lost and thus fortunes and empires are lost. And to grab the moment you need confidence, and courage of your convictions. “
@ Ghost of TK
In ref: to The Ayub- Fatima Jinnah election
If there had a been a fair election- Fatima Jinnah would have won hands down.
But we should not blame the AWAM because they were poor, timid and afraid of the GOVT.
the word POOR in English does NOT translate well from GHAREEB in Urdu or Pushto . The word Ghareeb expresses not only the economic poverty but helplessness-( and sehmay huway)
Faiz said very well and was describing the same awam -
Kisay wakeel karein
Kiss sey musifee chahein
unhee guzarnein walon key din guzartey hain etc etc.
The oppression, lack of education, beatings by parents and teachers, lack of love and kindness is what these Awam grow up in and to expect the same Awam to stand up to an organized armed GANG-( Martial Law) is asking a bit much.
The fact that they rose and voted for Fatimah Jinnah was in itself a great act of courage and a loud cry that for a little LOVE and a word of kindness we will do anything- even endanger ourselves.
And the same Awam did not cut anyone’s throats or give lashes to anyone on their bottoms or kill anyone who beats their chest on Muharram .
Even to-day if a credible trustworthy leader rises and is able to show that same love and kindness to this same awam- let me assure you – the same Awam will rise to the occasion .
Yes we want a Messiah !
If anyone has any doubts about this Awam- just look what they did during the earthquake.
LuL PM and chul President ( ghadon per sawar aik ghadha)
This is what the internally displaced persons think of the extremists:
http://epaper.dawn.com/ArticleText.aspx?article=09_05_2009_001_004
Right. Mrs Claus
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