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ACCOUNTIBILITY IN THE KHILAFAH STATE:
Accountability (muhasabah) is not the first word that springs to mind when discussing the Muslim world. Dictatorship, rigged elections, tyranny and torture pretty much sum up most Muslim countries today. The level of cruelty inflicted upon the people easily rivals if not surpasses some of the worst oppression in history. Unfortunately for those living there accountability and the rule of law seem a distant dream.
This book, written by Abdul Kareem Newell, addresses the topic of accountability in the Khilafah State and how Islam establishes clear checks and balances to ensure the office of the Khalifah is not abused.
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/khilafah/470-book-accountability-in-the-khilafah
You can download the book from the mentioned link.
Regards
Imran changes stance on Malakand operation
Wednesday, July 08, 2009
By Mumtaz Alvi
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf (PTI) Chairman Imran Khan on Tuesday said the ongoing military operation in the Malakand Division should be halted only after reestablishment of the government writ.
Speaking on security issues, the cricketer-turned politician, who had been consistently advocating a halt to the operation and initiation of dialogue, had a different viewpoint on the matter.
“Now that the operation has been started, it must reach its logical end, by which I mean it should be halted only after the government writ is established again in Malakand,” the PTI chairman emphasised.
However, he strongly opposed the use of force in Waziristan and said issues in the tribal region should be resolved through other means. Imran Khan cautioned that if the operation was ended without achieving the declared objectives, it would result into very dangerous consequences. Rejecting the government’s claims of successes, he said the military action had only added to the number of militants.
Clarifying his stance on the matter, the PTI chief said that he had never been against the military, but opposed the armed campaign. He added Pakistan had consumed $40 billion on the anti-terror war and no one could predict with certainty how much was to be spent further on this count.
Referring to his recent visit to the US, he said that during his talks with American legislators, they openly hinted at their readiness to review their strategy in Afghanistan.Later, Imran Khan, while talking to a PTI women wing delegation at the party’s Central Secretariat, announced his party would launch a countrywide movement against increase in the prices of kitchen items, after taking other political parties into confidence.
@JJ Khan
I’m sure Imran Khan has been quoted incorrectly.
I know he’s a devoted deobandi muslim and can never speak against Taliban Mujahadeen !
@lota
First of all , i at lest have the decency of not suggesting that you have no idea about science as I dont know you, You on the other hand ( without knowing me) tell me that I never studies science. I am a post graduate student of biological sciences.
If you have selected blindness, you will happily say that there is no debate about evolution and creation, go around your google search and see for yourself. Theory of creation is backed not only by Mullas but also by experts of the relevant fields of science. Like evolution, creation is a also a theory but you will not accept it. And guess why? because Mullas oppose the theory of evolution.
Its not Hube Ali, its Bughaze Muawiya on your part. You will accept any theory that gives you a chance to humiliate religion and Mullas, even if your personal knowledge about it comparable to that of a Todd , who by the way could be your great great great Granddad according to the theory of evolution.
Allah-o-Akbar
More Taliban Mujahadeen embrace Shahadat !
http://jang.com.pk/jang/jul2009-daily/08-07-2009/index.html
@mulla umar
Al-Hamdolillah,
Pakistan’s brave army, with the support of people of Pakistan, ‘JAHANAM WASIL’ more and more Taliban dogs.
@Mullah Omar
imran khan said
“Now that the operation has been started, it must reach its logical end, by which I mean it should be halted only after the government writ is established again in Malakand,”
@ bebus
Well done. Keep it up.
خوش کیتا ای شیرا
@ bebus
Pakistani Tujhe salaam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7HvqKyiQH0
@bebus
Hiiii Allah
You are calling Taliban Mujahadeen ‘dogs’ !
Don’t you know ‘dog’ is na-pak janwar ?
Shame on you !
Dog is being used for detection of diseases,narcotics,theft, investigation of crime and security.Even the Gujjars of Pakistan and Afghanistan cannot move without dogs,as these animals protect their cattle from predators.The ladies going for a walk keep dogs for their protection in Islamabad and this trend has increased due to certain attacks recently.Almighty Allah has made everything with a purpose and has equipped dog with amazing qualities.I believe in Laws of nature and dont care what a reformer of religion said according to a certain situation/mood.
@ talal khan
Now dogs in Swat and Tribal area whisper with each other ” Bhago jahan se warna taliban ke mott maray jao gay”
@ Bawa
Excellent comment, but for those who may be able to understand it.
Military Inc. in Iran and how it throttles political liberty – Echoes of Pakistan?:
@bhola & lota
Both creation and evolution theories are correct.Without creation there cant be any evolution.Anthropology has revealed that every species underwent evolution.For example cat was as big as a cheetah,but as it was domesticated,it did not need to prey and in centuries,it lost its height.However,it was created in the cat family by the Almighty.
@bhola & lota
Both creation and evolution theories are correct.Without creation there cant be any evolution.Anthropology has revealed that every species underwent evolution.For example cat was as big as a cheetah,but as it was domesticated,it did not need to prey and in centuries,it lost its height.However,it was created in the cat family by the Almighty.
@talal khan
>>The ladies going for a walk keep dogs for their protection in Islamabad and this trend has increased due to certain attacks recently
Nothing against the dogs, but ladies in Islamabad take dogs not for their security but they do it as this is in Fashion. Have you seen the pocket sized portable dogs they walk around? How will they provide security ?. They do it because it is supposed to be cool to have a dog, the smaller the cuter the better. Its in Fashion.
Give me some links to the news stories where dogs have protected Islamabad ladies from attackers in teh park recently.
Revivalist!
With due respect to your sentiments,people had turned against the third caliph as he had appointed his close ones as Governers.To the extent that his house wass surrounded before he was killed and no one came to his rescue despite that he appealed everyone to rescue him( From the book of Dr Taha the egyptian scholar).The fourth one was also accused of nepotism,and was killed on the same account.However,Hazrat Umar(R.A) did have a sound system of accountablity.But he was so rigid that people distributed sweets on his killing(From Maulana Shibli Naumani:Seeratul Nabi)
@talal khan
copy/paste of orientalist’s arguments
@talal khan
i am sure you will go to extent of abusing the prophets by accusing “nauzubillah” child molester etc etc… cursing & abusing sahaba karam r.a. is little thing to you orientalists…
ahaaaaa
so Caliphs were the ONLY rulers got killed in human history. or not liked by certain groups of the community of the time?. History is full of killing of elected leaders, dictators, kings, queens etc, full of stories of rebellions against Governments. So what exactly is the point of telling us that Caliphs were killed? According to our religion , Prophets were attacked and killed and there were people who didnt like them. SO??
History and Human Evolution
(Lecture I of II)
Murtada Mutahhari
Translated from Persian by Dr. ‘Ali’uddin Pasargadi
The subject of our discussion is the meaning of evolution in history, or in other words, man’s social evolution and progress. Men of science assume two types of evolution for man: one of which is biological evolution, about which you may have read in biology and know that man is considered as the most perfect animal and the last link in the natural evolution of animals. The meaning of biological evolution is clear: it is an evolution that the process of nature has produced without the intervention of man himself and without his asking for it. In this respect there is no difference between man and other animals; since every animal has reached a stage of evolution by a natural and coercive process. The same process has brought man to the stage that we call him a human being, and consider him a specific kind of species as distinct from other species.
But the historical or social evolution means a new process of evolution in which nature does not play the role it played in man’s biological evolution. This evolution is an acquired one, namely, an evolution that man has secured by his own effort, and in every period has transferred it to the next generation through teaching and learning, and not through heredity. The biological evolution has taken place without man’s will power and initiative, and has been achieved through a series of laws of heredity. But the social or historical evolution, being acquired by man’s effort, has not been handed down from one generation to another, or from zone to zone through heredity, and there is not even a possibility of its being such. It has been accomplished through education, teaching and learning, and primarily through the art of writing. We see that the Quran swears in the name of the pen and tools of writing1, and addresses the Prophet thus: “Read in the name of your God, Who created man from clotted blood. Read, and your God is the most exalted; He, who taught with the pen.”2 This means that God taught man how to use the pen; that is, He granted him the power to make progress in his historical and social evolution.
There is no doubt that human society since its origin, that is, since civilization first began to appear, has continuously progressed and evolved. We all know that like the biological evolution, social evolution, too, has been gradual, with one difference, and that is, with the passage of time the rate of evolution has increased in speed; in other words, it has followed a course of acceleration. It has moved on and on and has not been stationary, and the motion, too, has not been a fixed one. A car may move at a fixed speed of a hundred kilometers for several hours; but a speed with an acceleration means a gradual increase of speed in which the speed increases every minute.
But although evolution and progress seem an obvious matter, you may be surprised that there have been learned men who have doubted whether what has happened can be called progress or evolution. One may wonder that there should be any room for doubt in this matter. But the reason why they have expressed doubt about it will be discussed later on. Here, it is sufficient to say that although we do not consider their doubt justified and we believe that human society has continued its course of an all-round evolution and is approaching its final phase, at the same time their doubts are not quite without foundation. Nevertheless, we must clarify the cause for this doubt in order to be able to fully understand the meaning of evolution.
What is Evolution?
We must first define evolution. Many matters seem at first so obvious as to require no definition. But when one tries to define them, he finds it very hard and is faced with difficulties. I have no intention of quoting all the definitions which philosophers have given for evolution. There is a fine point in Islamic philosophy which is subject to argument from the viewpoint of the Quran, and that is the difference between “complete” and “perfect”. We use the word “complete” as the antonym of “defective”, and again we use “perfect” as the antonym of the same word “defective”. But does “complete” mean “perfect”? No. There is a verse in the Quran which is related to the question of Imamah and wilayah. It says: “Now We made your religion perfect, and completed Our blessings on you and were content for Islam to be your religion.” (Quran, 5:3)
This shows that the Quran attributes two meanings to “perfection” and “completeness”. The blessings were completed from a defective state, and religion was perfected from a defective condition. But before explaining the difference between the two words, let me first explain the difference between evolution and progress, and then return to this matter.
Is progress the same as evolution, and is evolution identical with progress? They happen to have a difference and you may consider their usage. We sometimes speak of a sickness which is progressing, but we do not say it is evolving. If an army which is fighting in a land occupies a part of it, we say that the army is advancing, but we do not say that it is evolving. Why not? Because there is a sense of exaltation in evolution: evolution is an upward movement, a vertical movement, from a lower level to a higher plane. But progress and advance is always on a horizontal level. When an army has occupied a territory and added some land to its own possessions, we say that it has advanced, which means that it has moved ahead but on the same plane that it had before. Why do we not say that it has evolved? Because, there is the idea of exaltation in evolution. So, when we speak of social evolution, it means man’s social exaltation and not just progress. Many things may be considered progress for man and society without being evolution and exaltation for the human society. We say this to show that if some scholars have expressed doubts about such progress’ worthiness to be called an evolution, their view is not without foundation. Although we do not confirm their view, yet what they have stated is not entirely pointless. Therefore, there is a difference between evolution on the one hand and progress and development on the other; for progress and development are almost similar in meaning.
But the difference between perfect and complete can be explained in this fashion: If something consists of a number of parts, such as a building or a car, as long as all the necessary parts do not exist in it, we say that it is imperfect. But when we place the last part in it, then we can say that it is “complete”. In comparison, evolution has many phases and stages. When a child is born with some defect in his limbs, we consider him defective; but even when he is born with all his limbs complete, it is still considered defective from another point of view; he must pass through many stages of evolution in his education which are for him a form of exaltation and ascension by degrees and steps. So far our discussion was about the definition of evolution in the social and biological sense. But now we deal with other matters in this connection, the most important of which may be stated in three questions:
1. Has man, in his social life and throughout history, achieved evolution and exaltation?
2. Is human society undergoing evolution and will reach a fully evolved state in future?
3. If it is undergoing evolution, what is that ideal society, or, as Plato would say, that utopia of man, and what are its peculiarities?
We can understand the course of history up to the present; but what about the future? Should we close our eyes about the future and say that history inevitably moves on an evolutionary course? Is evolution in nature imposed by time? Is the ship of time voyaging on an evolutionary course without the slightest intervention of man and without any responsibility on his part? Have human beings in the past had no role as beings endowed with free will, freedom of choice and responsibility? Has the role of human beings in the past been secondary and subject to determinism or if there has been no such determining force in the past?
Human beings, by their own free will and choice and their own initiative and planning of their society, have determined an evolutionary course for their society, and have advanced it. This matter of free will and freedom of human beings in the past, should not be forgotten. Therefore, a group of men are worthy of praise and admiration, and they are those who had the choice to stand against historical evolution, or deprive it of their support, and prefer their personal welfare to the struggle for the sake of progress. But they chose the other way, and freely, by their own choice, followed the way of evolution, and sacrificed themselves. Similarly other human beings should be reproached and even cursed for posing hindrances in the way of this evolution.
If we do not recognize the future and have no plan for it, and if we pay no attention to our responsibility for making history, we too deserve being reproached by future generations. History is made by man, and not man by history. If we have no plan for the future, and do not realize our responsibility for the future of history, no one can promise us that this ship will reach its destination automatically. The least that can be said is that it may either go ahead or turn backwards. This matter of ability to advance or reverse the course of events, the idea that there isn’t a blind coercive force that drives events ahead, is in Islam, and especially in Shi’ism, a question, which from a sociological viewpoint (as I have explained in my book, Man and Destiny), may be considered one of the most sublime of Islamic teachings.
Subhanullah! Imran Khan’s wild oats keep blossoming up.
Dumbo No. 5
I like Kristiane, Jemima and Sita
and as I continue you know they’re gettin’ sweeter
so what can I do I really beg you my Lord
to me flirtin’ it’s just like a sport
anything fly it’s all good let me dump it
please set in the trumpet
a little bit of Monica in my life
a little bit of Erica by my side
a little bit of Rita is all I need
a little bit of you makes me your man
Take one step left
And one step right
One to the front and one to the side
Clap your hands once
And clap your hands twice
And if it looks like this
Then you are doing it right
Sanoo javeeN na javeeN na javeeN na Chhad baliye!
Nutch baliye!
Nutch baliye!
@mbokhari
When it comes Imran Khan for YOU the glass is half empty most of the time,
Thnx for the links, Heard that song after long time.
@mbokhari
Subhanullah! Imran Khan’s wild oats keep blossoming up.
عمران خان اسلام کا مجاہد ہائے اوس نئے اسلام دنیا کی ہر کونئے مائی پھیلا دیا ہائے طریقہ تھوڑا نیا ہائے مگر خوب کام کرتا ہائے . جنت مائی محال بھی بان گیا اور دنیا بھی سچ پھیلا دیا . ہمارا بھی فراز ہائے ہم گوریوں کئے لیے ایمان مضبوط کریں اور تبلیگ کریں. ام کئے ام گتلیوں کئے دام
@bhola
@talal khan
Care to explain why you would need Noah’s ark when you have evolution already?
@bhola
When 3 out of 4 caliphs get murdered in a system that is supposed to be perfect who do you blame? Amricka, Israel and India? I know no Muslim can murder a caliph. A Muslim can’t explode a bomb in Pakistan let alone murder a caliph. The caliphate had problems from the start and it divided and alienated different segments of Muslim society. It divided the Muslims in permanent groups. It did not have any fail safe mechanisms. There was no way to peacefully change a caliph. The election of the caliph was always a problem and never was without ever lasting issues.
I didn’t know that some of the participants of this forum are from Monkey’s families.Thier ancestors were monkey’s are Aps. They blamed Taliban as animals but they themselves are from Monkey’s families. Keep it up guys. Great Stuff.
@mbokhari
یہ باتیں جھوٹی باتیں ہیں یہ لوگوں نے پھیلائی ہیں
تم خان صاھب کا نام نہ لو ، وہ تو سیتا کے بھائی ہیں
@lota
I belong to the group who believes that yes you can explain somethings with theory of evolution but not everything. I dont believe that I am sitting on a sofa , using internet because of theory of evolution. Some species may have undergone changes over the time, both morphologically as well as genetically but thats not the only truth. Creation is there as well. And I have no problem accepting that Allah will allow evolution with his will, He created and certain things could have evolved with His will. Theory of evolution has its place but its not the whole and the only truth about species.
Now as for teh killings of Caliphs is concerned you are mixing up things, blaming everything that went wrong on religion and the system , ignoring the fact that the system was in a tribal community , was run by human beings who like you and me had their weaknesses and strengths. Muslim is not SUPPOSED to kill , but he CAN kill, is not supposed to detonate a bomb in a mosque or a market but he can. Islam is not a Danda Bardar Jamatiya who will watch the Muslims and will stop them there and then. Your argument that Muslims killed Caliphs so blame it on the system/religion is flawed. You can blame the individuals.
Every system of electing an Gov will divide the community, so dont blame it on Caliphs alone. Give me a single example of a system/country where the whole bloody community is united? . You are happy to ignore the divisions of nations, societies if it takes place in any system other than an Islamic Government. Jinnah must be a criminal in your eyes who divided a nation , is responsible for the blood shed of millions which took place as a result, and he was not even a Caliph
PS:
can you count the assassination attempts on democratically elected leaders across the world, successful as well as unsuccessful. And will you blame democracy for that, I mean you should , shouldnt you?
They were not Caliphs, were elected by a system which you probably adore, were not even in a tribal culture and surprise , surprise, people still wanted to kill them, so democracy must be a rotten system, isnt it?. And yes after each successful attempt , you would finds thousands, even millions who might be happy about the killings, ‘ distributing sweets’.
Taliban Khan is suffering from a flip flop disease. He used to be an ardent supporter of Gen Mush then he switched his position. He then supported Taliban animals but now again another flip flop and now he wants a logical end to the operation against Taliban animals. I promise I will stop calling him Taliban Khan if he stops supporting Talibans.
IK is politically naive and still on an L plate of politics. He must get rid of extremist people around him like Munafiq JI and militant Gen Hameed Gul.
@bhola & mbokhari
تم لوگوں نے اس فورم کا ستیاناس کر کے رکھ دیا ہے
او مے کہ رہا ہوں مجھے پتا ہے بربادی لگا دی ہے ان لبرل فسکست نے
You people rock !
@lota6177 said:
……
koshish karo beta hasad naa karo. Everyone is free to enter politics. Tum bhie apna nana, mama or maan democrasy kaie liye katal karwa lo or phir shouq saie ppp ka head ban jao. PPP achie nahie lagtie to pml ya ji ka liya apna khandan marwa lo phir shouq saie leader ban jaoo.
…….
Are you on some kind of medication? because what you have babbled makes no sense at all. But, again, you may one of those moronic ZPP supporters who have given this country the gift of Zardari.
Finally a very good news from Islamabad Police, these politicians/vadera/generals think they are above law.
http://jang.com.pk/jang/jul2009-daily/08-07-2009/up81.gif
Tariq Ali on Obama & Empire
Its going to be a hit among pro-taliban elements, I bet.
Marxism 2009: The Logan Hall in central London was packed to overflowing to hear Tariq Ali give his assessment of the first 100 days of the Obama presidency.
http://www.counterfire.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=274&catid=1&Itemid=50
@bhola
Religiously a controversial figure in the Muslim world, Umar is regarded by Sunni Muslims as one of four Rashidun or rightly guided caliphs who were true successors of Muhammad; in stark contrast, regarded by Shi’a Muslims as unjust in his usurpation of Ali’s right to the caliphate, indeed as the principal political architect of opposition to Ali. According to Shia Muslims, Fatimah, wife of Ali and daughter of Muhammad, was abused by him and it is believed the event caused her to miscarry her child and eventually led to her death soon after.[3][4] (see Umar at Fatimah’s house).
Umar judged the outcome of the Saqifa assembly to be a falta [translated by Madelung as 'a precipitate and ill-considered deal'[38]]because of the absence of most of the prominent Muhajirun, including the Prophet’s own family and clan, whose participation he considered vital for any legitimate consultation (shura, mashwara). It was, he warned the community, to be no precedent for the future. Yet he also defended the outcome, claiming that the Muslims were longing for Abu Bakr as for no one else. He apologized, moreover, that the Muhajirun present were forced to press for an immediate oath of allegiance since the Ansar could not have been trusted to wait for a legitimate consultation and might have proceeded to elect one of their own after the departure of the Mekkans. Another reason for Umar to censure the Saqifa meeting as a falta was no doubt its turbulent and undignified end, as he and his followers jumped upon the sick Khazraji leader Sa’d bin Ubada in order to teach him a lession, if not to kill him, for daring to challenge the sole right of Quraysh to rule. This violent break-up of the meeting indicates, moreover, that the Ansar cannot all have been swayed by the wisdom and eloquence of Abu Bakr’s speech and have accepted him as the best choice for the succession, as suggested by Caetani. There would have been no sense in beating up the Khazraji chief if everybody had come around to swearing allegiance to Umar’s candidate. A substantial number of the Ansar, presumably of Khazraj in particular, must have refused to follow the lead of the Muhajirun. [39] .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_at_Fatimah%27s_house
Two examples of democracy and there are many more. Please do your homework on the caliphate so I don’t have to do it for you.
In last two days we had three drone attacks that killed 75+ militants. I know IK/JI cult and TT-pkp ‘d be upset but I am glad drones are reaching where our Army can’t yet. These millitant mullahs need to be attacked in their so called safe havens.
@lota
Have you ever wondered why certain creatures love to live in filth?. They thrive in filth and thats where they will always live. Even if given the choice they would jump into filth and will live there happily ever after.
From countless accounts about Hayate Sahaba including Hazrat Umar , you came up with the controversial ones as this suits your nature. The first line of your comment says that he was controversial figure as Sunnis ( 70-80% of Muslim population) like him and respect him. There are historians who give different details of the events.But guess which side of the story you preferred to propagate ?, the one which satisfies your desire to live in filth. May I ask you , that if there are different point of views about Hazrat Umar and Caliphs , why didnt you present both sides of the story?. Why did you prefer to mention that a there were some people who didnt want to approve of Hazrat Abubakar, but didnt mention the other Sahaba , equally respectable, who did actually approve of him?
The answer is again the the theory of filth. If you are given a million choices you will choose the one which will satisfy your appetite of ridiculing the religion/ Caliphs/ Islamic system.
All Sahaba were human beings , with their differences and to majority of Muslims they all are respectable, despite their differences. There are not called Rashideen without a reason but if someone gives you a reason you will come up with the controversial events from your filth pond. You are not driven by Hube Ali, its Bughaze Muawiya , as ai said before.
one orientalist tactic has been to attack a leadership figure and then show that system is corrupt. For example now a days in western media if muslim commits a crime his/her religion is mentioned but when a christian or hindu commits crime religion isn’t mentioned
similarly to attack islamic ideology orientalists pick up leading personalities, study history in detail and then raise question to indirectly attack the ideology. But when it comes to their ideology i.e they always say these are just “few bad apples” in our great system
For example when clinton fornicated and lied no one said democracy is bad & evil but these orientalist love to pick up caliphs and debate to prove weakness to attack islamic ideology. They would never see how peaceful & wealthy common people were but will try to attack the character of the leaders.
so it is simple when it comes to secularims, praise the ideology and the system emanating from it i.e. democracy & capitalism but when it comes to Islam, attack the leading character to proof Islam is inefficient
now we have a couple of athiest here who are running back & fourth copying pasting from websites to engage in silly debates, but they will never accept what agenda they are on
@JanuJerman Khan
your post reminds me of the day when qazi sahibs ninja daughter came on tv to complain the media is biased against ijt. If a few people beat up ik in punjab university we shouldnt speak about it. No arguments just choun choun choun. I have provided links with references you have something to add to debate other than your choun choun go ahead. Comparing a caliph with Bill clinton, are you really that stupid?
janab ad m i en saheb
I hope my comments in response to @lota pass the test of mode ration
@bhola
if they dont pass feel free to email me at lota6177@yahoo.com
@lota6177
Good work buddy !
Keep it up !
جو بعدے نبی بزمے سقیفہ سے اٹھی تھی
اس آگ سے زہرہ کے بھرے گھر مے لگی آگ
@bhola
Feel free to be a cheerleader for a system that divided Muslims into Shia, Sunni and kharji. Let’s ignore the civil wars and the murders. It was perfect and there were no disagreements. The wolf and the sheep were drinking water from the same river. Now do I get a clean certificate? I have provided another link for you. I don’t know what books you have been reading but if you read the books that Sunni Islam is based on you will find everything in there. Every single piece of information that molvie xyz gives you comes from certain limited texts. Read them and you will get your answer. Please don’t come in discussions by reading fairytales or sanitized propaganda for the religious sheep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirah
As expected, once you mixed religion in politics, the discussion slowly drifted to Shia-Sunni disagreements. That’s why I believe secularism is the best answer.
@lota
:p
so if i base my religion and belief on Shia Islam or whatever Islam you follow or dont follow, WILL I GET THE CLEAN CERTIFICATE ?
@all
I did not see bhola advocating sectarian stuff…I see some desperation to bring him on sectarian lines but eloquently he did not succumb.
@lota177
I quote you here in full.
I am sorry to say you are nothing but an exploiter so at the end you can say….See I was right and you were wrong though you did not say it but I am saying it to say that you must have said it.
lota6177 said:
@bhola
Feel free to be a cheerleader for a system that divided Muslims into Shia, Sunni and kharji. Let’s ignore the civil wars and the murders. It was perfect and there were no disagreements. The wolf and the sheep were drinking water from the same river. Now do I get a clean certificate? I have provided another link for you. I don’t know what books you have been reading but if you read the books that Sunni Islam is based on you will find everything in there. Every single piece of information that molvie xyz gives you comes from certain limited texts. Read them and you will get your answer. Please don’t come in discussions by reading fairytales or sanitized propaganda for the religious sheep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirah
Watch today’s late edition show.
امریکہ میں زمین پر محممد ایوب خان لکھا ہوا ہے اور لوگ اس پر پاؤں رکھ کر گزرتے ہیں . اب کیا ہم میں اتنی بھی غیرت نہیںکہ ہم حضرت محممد کے نام کی خاطر بھی نہیں بول سکتے. حسسیں حقانی کو تو شرم سے مر جانا چاہیے. پی پی پی تو اسی بات پر خوش ہو گی کہ محممد کا نام ایوب خان کے ساتھ ہے خیر ہی ہے.
حمیت نام تھا جس کا گیے تیمور کے گھرانے سے
Swati doctor interviewed in Banaras, Karachi
@jazoo
Thanks for your comments.
@lota
Sorry to disappoint you but I am not going to debate the historic events with you because these are centuries old debates and people have different view points about it. Your wikipedia knowledge is not going to add anything nor its going to convince others because these events have already been debated in length by different schools of thoughts and yet there is a difference of opinion. Besides you have already rejected my ‘presumed’ source of knowledge in advance by declaring that it may be derived form a particular sect.
My focus from the very start has been your intention behind this and similar debates on the forum. You do it simply to question everything related to religion , be it Quran, Islamic traditions, Caliphs , society, anything. Your problem is that you want things doen in your way, even things which have already been done in the past. Was it you who even insisted that Slavery should have been abolished by an Aayah in Quran and rejected the way Islam dealt with it. So either you dont believe in Quran , in which case I dont know why you are so concerned about the ‘division of Muslims caused by Caliphs’, or you are so arrogant that you want to advice even Allah about what Aayah He should have included in Quran. So who am I to debate with a mind like yours?
Then you go on ranting about ‘murders , civil wars’ during the reign of Caliphs. You give he impression that the world was a peaceful place , no murders , no civil wars, no nothing. Then came Islam and Caliphs and there were all those bad things, nothing good, just bad things and then Caliphs were gone and the world is a peaceful place again. The atrocities and divisions and killings and everything bad never happened in no other system, no other society.
Your ‘Twittering’ about fellow ‘ twitters on streets of Tehran and desperate attempts to recruit other Twitters on tis forum to support Twitter revolution is another example of your intentions i.e support anything and everything which can humiliate Mullahs.
لوگ سمجھیں گے تمہیں غدار، آؤ چپ رہو
ناخدا کرتے ہیں کب غرقاب ناؤ، چپ رہو
کیمرے کے سامنے آنسو بہانا جرم ہے
ہر طرف سے مار کھاؤ مسکراؤ، چپ رہو
خود کو خود میں دفن کرنے سے قرار آجائےگا
دوستوں کے دشمنوں کے گیت گاؤ، چپ رہو
کہہ رہے ہیں اس کا پھل کھائیں گے سب اہلِ وطن
اپنی بربادی کے قصے مت سناؤ، چپ رہو
مارنے والوں کو دشمن جاننا ممکن نہیں
مرنے والوں کو کہیں پر بھول جاؤ، چپ رہو
ہنستے ہنستے کھلکھلاتے پھول کیسے چپ ہوئے
دوستوں کو اب زیادہ مت رلاؤ ، چپ رہو
اب تمہارے آنسوؤں کو بیچ کر کھائیں گے سب
ان کی باتوں میں کسی صورت نہ آؤ، چپ رہو
حاکموں کو بھیک لانے کا بہانہ مل گیا
پھر سے یہ فن آزمانے کا بہانہ مل گیا
محفلوں میں رونے دھونے کی اجازت ہوگئی
خلوتوں میں مسکرانے کا بہانہ مل گیا
کاسئہ سائل لئے نکلیں گے پھر چاروں طرف
اک نئی دنیا بسانے کا بہانہ مل گیا
جس گلی میں گھومتے رہنے کی عادت ہے انہیں
اس گلی میں پھر سے جانے کا بہانہ مل گیا
کھل کے پھر امداد کی برسات برسے گی یہاں
رج کے پھر یاروں کو کھانے کا بہانہ مل گیا
دربدر لوگوں کے قصے بک رہے ہیں ہرطرف
ساری دنیا کو رلانے کا بہانہ مل گیا
کھیت بھی خطرے میں ہے، کھلیان بھی خطرے میں ہے
فصل کو روتا ہے کیا، دھقان بھی خطرے میں ہے
اب نہیں ملتی کہیں اخبار میں سچی خبر
لگ رہا ہے میڈیا کی جان بھی خطرے میں ہے
مارنے پر وہ نہیں کرتے عموماً اکتفا
آنکھ بھی خطرے میں ہے، یہ کان بھی خطرے میں ہے
ظاہر و باطن نشانے پر ہیں دونوں سمت سے
جان بھی خطرے میں ہے، ایمان بھی خطرے میں ہے
چار دیواری میسر ہے نہ ہے چادر یہاں
بے سروسامان کی اب آن بھی خطرے میں ہے
گولیوں کی زد میں ہیں سارے مریض و سب طبیب
درد بھی خطرے میں ہے، درمان بھی خطرے میں ہے
بوریا بستر سمیٹو اپنے گھر خالی کرو
حکم آیا ہے کہ یہ سارا نگر خالی کرو
سارے لوگوں کو یہاں سے کوچ کرنا چاہئیے
کل جو آئے گا یہاں اس کل سے ڈرنا چاہییے
آپ چاہو یا نہ چاہو، سب مگر خالی کرو
حکم آیا ہے کہ یہ سارا نگر خالی کرو
کل نہیں ہوگی کوئی جائے اماں
جل رہی ہوں گی یا ساری بستیاں
کھیت یہ کھلیان یہ پگڈنڈیاں
اب نظر آئے نہ یاں بندہ بشر خالی کرو
حکم آیا ہے کہ یہ سارا نگر خالی کرو
رونے دھونے سے نہیں ہوتا کسی دکھ کا علاج
اس مصیبت سے نکلنے کی کوئی تدبیر ہونی چاہییے
خوش نما نعروں سے دھوکہ دے رہے ہیں آج بھی
ظالموں کے ظلم کی تشہیر ہونی چاہییے
ہر طرف حالات کا وہ جبر ہے،
آپشن یاں صبر ہے یا قبر ہے
مارنے والوں کو کچھ مطلب نہیں،
مرنے والا زید ہے یا بکر ہے
خوبصورت لفظ منہ پر مار دو،
رونا دھونا ان کا سارا مکر ہے۔۔۔
@bhola
All these historic events are written down in books and that is how they have been passed along from generation to generation. You can study the books and find out where the material is coming from. There is no new information coming down the pipeline than what has been already been written. The links I provided on Wikipedia are reference material from Al-Tarabi in the first instance. He is accepted by every school of Sunni Islam I know of. Do a search on al-tarabi and you will find out how important he is. That link explains the decision to choose a caliph was not unanimous and force and coercion was used. There are other books that say the same thing. This caused friction and political tension and down the line things went very badly by the time of the third caliph. There was a civil war and as a result Muslims got divided. I am blaming all these on the caliphate system because the way it was designed it was a system that wasn’t democratic and was not able to face challenges it faced hence the division. The things that all four caliphs did are not without controversy and when you show this system as perfection that is not a good assessment. The world has always been a bad place and that is why different systems are invented to solve the problems. The caliphate wasn’t a success by any standards for the little time it was enacted it failed to gain consensus and people who were united under a prophet were killing each other because they didn’t agree with how things were in the caliphate. If we do accept what your suggesting that caliphate is the most successful system ever than how come Muslims ended up in a civil war and got divided into sects of Sunni, shia and kharji (ibadi). What is your explanation for that? America, India and Israel caused that? The second link provided was what Caliph Omar himself though of the caliphate. It is pretty self explanatory. The reference is also provided for it.
@jazoo
Thank you for the running commentary from the sideline. Do you have anything to add to the debate? Any argument or just choun choun?
@bhola
Answer in moderation. As for the slavery debate everything I said is in my posts if you are not clear about anything copy and paste and I will be more than happy to reply.
@lota
There is no logic or reason in faith.
I was brought up in an Ahl-Hadith family,Syed Qutb and Maudoodi were my heroes.Debate on Faith and Reason has been going on for ever.Religions evolved over a long period of time.I was able to realize Islam evolved out of Judeo-Christian belief system.
Islam was revolutionary for the time of its birth but is in desperate need for reformation for the 21st century.
Mutazilites tried to reform it in the past but failed at the hands of Asharites.
I can appreciate your passion i know how it feels.But it is going to take a real movement by the educated class, who is indifferent at the present moment and don’t realize it is a matter of our survival.We rather keep quiet in order not to hurt others sensitivity.
@zia m
well said, couldn’t agree more.
Terrorist and pak army are brothers brothers it was clear at the first operation.
hmmmm
Zia m!
I am happy that you studied the history of religion.It is not possible to reform it because no consensus can be reached.People do not even like AAlims like Javed Ghamdi,not to speak of a common educated person.People will bring contradictory arguments.For example,Hazrat Suleman used to make pictures.Hazrat Daud was fond of music.But people will cite Ahadis to counter that.In my view we should only try to understand the laws of nature and ablde by those.Allah seems to have created a variety having rich ,poor,weak,strong and struggle is in His laws.He deliberately created jealousy,anger,dominance in human nature,so that there is some activity in his world.In the concept of Jannat, even if you have all the things you desire,will not be attractive because jungle mein mor nacha,kis ney thekha. Wats the fun if you live in a palace, but there is no pride,competition and appreciation from others.
shoaib akhtar wasn’t allowed to play T20 world cup because he had “genital warts” a sexually transmitted disease
I thought about suing PCB, says Shoaib
Friday, July 10, 2009
ISLAMABAD: Controversial fast bowler Shoaib Akhtar says he considered taking legal action against Pakistan’s cricket management for publicly announcing the “very personal skin ailment” which forced him to miss last month’s Twenty20 World Cup.
The Pakistan Cricket Board made a surprisingly frank pre-tournament announcement on the nature of Akhtar’s condition when it removed him from the T20 squad.
“I kept quiet because I have a central contract and didn’t want to offend the Pakistan Cricket Board, but I could have sued the Pakistan team management,” Akhtar said in an interview late Wednesday night. “I didn’t want Pakistan team to suffer because my news is published all over the world.”
Akhtar is in category A of the PCB’s centrally contracted players, who are barred from openly criticising the cricket board’s decisions.
Without Akhtar, Pakistan went on to win the T20 World Cup.
The injury-prone fast bowler last played a Test match against India in 2007 before he was sidelined for 14 months due to fitness and disciplinary problems.
He has made two unimpressive comebacks to international cricket this year, in one-day series against Sri Lanka and Australia, but the enigmatic paceman known as the ‘Rawalpindi Express’ believes he can get back to his best.
“There’s still three-four good years left in me,” Akhtar said.
“I am the fastest bowler in history of cricket and it’s not possible for everyone to bowl at 150 (kph).”
Pakistan’s former coach, the late Bob Woolmer, advised Akhtar to shorten his long run-up to prolong his cricketing career, but Akhtar said he can not.
“It doesn’t suit me,” he said.
“My run-up is my speed, previously (in cricket) nobody has bowled as fast as I have bowled.”
Akhtar said fast bowlers should get the support of their captains as they are team’s match-winners.
“One of my favorite captains is (India’s Mahendra Singh) Dhoni. The captain should be cool and humble especially with fast bowlers because you win matches due to them.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/twenty20/5363321/Shoaib-Akhtars-genital-warts-keep-him-out-of-Pakistans-World-Twenty-20-squad.html
perhaps a punishment for fornication
zardari learn lesson from this
Mosques closed in China’s Urumqi for Friday prayers
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=82563
CIA chief admitted lying to Congress
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=82558
they lie, deceive, and destroy people…
@ adil
Swati doctor interviewed in Banaras, Karachi
چہرہ چھپا کر انٹرویو کرنے والے دشمنوں کے ایجنٹ ہیں ان کے چہروں کو بے نقاب کر نے کی ضرورت ہے
@ JanuJerman Khan
Mosques closed in China’s Urumqi for Friday prayers
مسلمانوں کے کرتوت اچھے ہوں تو وہ دنیا میں ہر جگہ خوار نہ ہوں
Jannugerman Khan&Bhola
All Khulafa-e Rashideen were simple pious ,noble people and desrve to be respected.But saying that their period was the ideal one is wrong.
As far as Imran khan is cocerned he is a bewaqoof dost but the question is if he is better than DANNA Dushmans?
@lota177
I am trying to understand whats choun choun
Perhaps when you accuse someone of saying something and that someone had not said that…then what you do is choun choun.
You are founder of this “choun choun” so you have to give a practical example what in reality is choun choun
and how it looks like elaborated with your infamous choun choun.
I donot agree with Imran khan on taliban and certain other issues.However maligning his personal character is wrong.He has confessed that he had friendships when he was young.Why to blame him for those things which young people often do.At least he cofessed it on a TV channel.Now he has changed.In fact our definition of character only revolves aroun “affairs”, which is a very narrow definition.What about those heroes of our golden history who had lots of legalised affairs?
@zia m choun choun(I mean wrote)
“I was brought up in an Ahl-Hadith family,Syed Qutb and Maudoodi were my heroes.Debate on Faith and Reason has been going on for ever.Religions evolved over a long period of time.I was able to realize Islam evolved out of Judeo-Christian belief system.”
A person whose heroes were Maududi and Syed Qutb
Surprisingly not only realized but was (able to realize) at some point that Islam evolved out of Judeo-Christian belief system.
Thanks but no thanks to Madudi Sahib for having such fans who were muslim all along but never taught to understand Islam is an Ibrahimic religion and continuation of Ibrahimic beliefs and Judeo Christian also are Ibrahimic religions.
This realization of zia m on top of that ability to realize has given another dimension to choun choun.
@talal khan, it is not about personalities, it is about ideologies
i understand that you worship secularism ideology that believes in separating “church & politics” but islamic ideology provides guidance on how to run the affairs of life in all sectors of life.
why not we go a step back and debate if there is a creator or not and then we progress to prophets & divinity and then to applications in the society?
i see u jumping here and there trying proof your hollow intellect & arguments learned from orientalists but I already conveyed to you that this isn’t a proper place to indulge in such debates, else I’ll love to take on you & the likes
your argument is like “clinton indulged in fornication and then he was caught lying while on oath so democracy is bad and incapable because it had a leader who fornicated & lied….
you see this argument is weak, you should rather say that secularism code of politics says that …. code of economics (capitalism) says that and islam’s code of politics says that and code of economics says that… compare the ideologies… you get it
zardari vs supreme court
dama dum mast qalander
Ordinance on petroleum levy challenged in SC
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=82565
@bawa
Ya she is from hanuman nagar patna and is on a special assignment to do fake interviews to malign pakistani army and its operation raha e rast. And the guy in the video sells vegetables in banaras colony karachi for decades and has never been in swat in his dream even.
@Talal khan
The same people who committed murder to preserve self interest during the early days of Islam were also capable of inventing fake Ahadis. In fact inventing fake ahadis was much easier than using the sword to kill other Muslims. Also during the collection of Ahadis the standard used to collect them was pretty low so a lot of fake ahadis got in. A good book to read on this topic is “criminals in Islam”. It is available online by doing a search on yahoo. It is the first thing that comes up.
@JanuJerman Khan
You are obssessed with shoaib akhtar’s private part. This news is 2 months old. Why are you still so excited?
@ Adil
بھائی جی! دشمنوں کو تو ہم پہچان لیتے ہیں لیکن جب اپنے الطاف بھائی یہ کہیں کہ پاکستان بنانا ایک غلطی تھی جو ہو گئی اب آگے چلو اور انڈیا سے تعلقات بہتر بناؤ ، ہم کیا کریں؟
ایک عقلمد دعا مانگتا ہے کہ یا الله مجھے میرے دوستوں سے محفوظ رکھنا دشمنوں سے میں خود ہے نپٹ لوں گا.
@lota
No, it came in today’s The News
i am worried if zardari also contracts this disease or similar due to the kind of activities he indulges in, who is going to loot the people through presidential ordinance
And hearing will be in SC on Monday. FDama Dum Must qalandar. Cheers!
Ordinance on petroleum levy challenged in SC
Updated at: 1050 PST, Friday, July 10, 2009
ISLAMABAD: The Petroleum Development Levy Ordinance 2009 has been challenged in Supreme Court.
Chaudhry Ikram, the lawyer of PML-N secretary general Iqbal Zafar Jaghra has field a petition challenging the presidential ordinance stated that president have no right to impose tax under constitution article number 77.
A separate petition also filed pleading Supreme Court to issue stay order for the withdrawal of POL price hike to give masses interim relief.
According to Geo News correspondent Abdul Qayyum, the hearing of petition will likely started from Monday.
The president had signed the advice from Prime Minister to raise petroleum prices through president ordinance that restored the POL prices to July 7 position.
now soon zardari will experience same fate as musharraf but of course without guard of honour
@bhola
At the time of the revolution there were wonderful expectations of a glorious time to come. Iran without the Shah would become free to realize all of its great potentials. Its failures can be said to include the current economic malaise, unemployment, and the brain drain. Democratic hopes have been dashed in recent years. As a social revolution to create an ideal society and a radical transformation of people’s lives, the revolution has failed. As a political movement to gain and hold power in the name of a specific set of ideas and for particular individuals, it has succeeded brilliantly. The mullahs are holding on to power and the message they are sending to the people of Iran is we know that you don’t like us and you would like a change. We are not going to allow a change unless you defeat us in a civil war in which there will be hundreds of thousands of casualties. The country will be in ruins. Are you really willing and ready to take up this challenge, particularly since you have the alternative of a tolerable existence?” Where the guardian council mullahs will rule and you can elect a moderate candidate who will look pretty in office but can’t change a single thing. For now the reform movement said, “No, we are not willing to take up this challenge’.
@ JanuJerman Khan
بھائی جی! مشرف تو فوجی تھا. فوج تو پاکستان توڑنے والے جرنیلوں کو بھی قومی پرچم اور سلامی دیکر دفن کرتی ہے
In recent days Turkey, which has cultural and linguistic ties to China’s Uighurs, has stepped into the fray. On Thursday the minister for trade and industry called for a boycott of Chinese goods to protest the crackdown in Xinjiang. “If the country where we consume the goods does not respect human values, we should reconsider our values,” said the minister, Nihat Ergun, according to the Anatolia news agency.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/world/asia/11china.html?_r=1&hpw
@lota
you said “In recent days Turkey, which has cultural and linguistic ties to China’s Uighurs”
saying recent is factually incorrect.
The early Muslim settlers in China saw all sorts of troubles and oppression. The tyrant rule of the Manchu dynasty (1644-1911) was the hardest and most brutal era administered against the Muslims. During this period five wars were waged against the Muslims.
(1) The Lanchu war 1820-28
(2) The Che Kanio war 1830
(3) The Sinkiang war 1847
(4) The Yunan war 1857
(5) The Shansi war 1861
This era is marked by gross Manchu animosity to Islam and Muslims. Muslims were slaughtered and Mosques were razed to the ground. These Muslims were led by men, who did not just lie passively in the face of the oppression but declared Jihad against the oppressive regime of Manchu. One of the military commanders by the name of Yaqoob Beg (1820-77) liberated the whole of Turkestan and attempted to administer Islamic rules from 1867-77. The Khaleefah of the time recognised Beg’s struggle as Islamic and rejoiced at his success. Beg eliminated crimes of violence during his rule.
The Russians and British officials lamented this new force for Islam and spoke of a new Turkic-Chinese Muslim power rising from Central Asia, comprising of the provinces of Yunan, Szechawan, Shensi and Kansu. One British official stated, “We really have before us grounds to summarise that this remote part of the world may at present be the scene of a great Muslim revival.”
@JanuJerman Khan
its from the article linked, care to read it and you would understand.
@Janu German Khan
You are dreaming of Muslim Revival and perhaps also of Ghalba-Islam on the whole world.
Do you really think that with the backwardness and in-fighting within muslims, it is possible? With the exception of few countries, all the muslim dominated areas are suffering and in turmoil.
Is it not in line with Allama Iqbals’s famous saying !
DEEN-MULLA, FASAD FI-SABILLILAH
I think that problem with we muslims is that we cannot implement Islam on our own tiny life, but we wish to implement Islam on whole of the world.
Is’nt it ? ? ?
@bebus
impressive you seem to be doing good homework
as i have explained before I look at solutions from technical & spiritual point of view so for me a study is good if we analyze it from secularist ideology and then compare to see how islamic ideology addresses it.
so let us not get busy in discussing this person or that person, but rather look at view points that secularism gives and view point that comes from islam
worshipers of secularism commit mistake and so do worshipers of other ideologies no one is perfect
ideology of secularism from which democratic political system and capitalist economic system emanates has failed humanity as evident from current financial crisis -if you studied this problem deeply-
@bebus
do you believe in Allah, Qur’an & hadith? just curious so that next time i don’t quote evidence from these sources and rather present technical/logical arguments
JanuGermankhan
But the scandinavian countries and Canada,newzealand ,Australia,etc are still doing well.Islamic glory was based on colonialism,MaleGhanimat and malukiat.Lota6177@bebu seem to be the only sensible people in this forum in addtion to a few more.You are intelligent but brainwashed biased–but nice person.
@JanuGerman Kha n
Sorry, I do not want to respond to your question. My religion is my personal matter. I hope you don’t mind.
@talal khan
good point, you said that western countries have progressed well without islam, i don’t disagree that Europe revived with the ideology of secularism and when one nation believes in an ideology and seeks solution from it they will progress -agreed
the problem with muslim countries is that they believe in islam but try to seek solution from secularism codes, that is where hypocrisy arises, either you leave islam and start believe in secularism and implement in life and you will also see progress but for that you need to convince the whole society
can’t be done in our case because people are hard core believers of islam, but what we got here is “adha teetar adhar batair”
@bebus
i gave you a reason, anyway you can opt to not to disclose it but indirectly it tells (NO)
but i’ll not assume anything …
@JanuGerman Khan
Dear friend.
I am afraid that you are 100% wrong in understanding about me.
@bebus
this possibility can’t be ruled out
on a lighter note
Kulsoom nawaz nae istri kartay huay Nawaz Shareef ke patloon jaldai is liay on ko mulaqaat sae chand lamhat phelay doosri pant phenni pari
Milliband soch reha hae Pakistan ko aid daen ya Nawaz Shareef sae Aid laen
@runaway
سب جھوٹ ہے _ الزام تراشی ہے
نا ممکن.
لوڈ شیڈنگ میں استری گرم ہو ہی نہیں سکتی
شائد گیلی تھی ( پانی زیادہ لگ گیا ہو گا )
Attn: All the lovers of Pak Army Generals’ Actions, read the comments of BBC Correspondent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/07/090710_army_mingora_pics_rh.shtml
One is near death and the other is already dead. Most probably the 3rd one, Muslim khan is already back to his old profession i.e. driving taxi cabs in US. Where are the people who were declaring them as the true islamic warriors. And remember even their biggest supporters, like JI and Taliban Khan (or should I call him CIA khan from now on
) are already regretting their ill-conceived support.
Swat Taliban chief ‘near death’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8144772.stm
Salute to our Army for doing a great job against Taliban animals. Their operation must continue until the death of last Taliban terrorists. Previous Govt shown hesitance for a full scale operation and as a result Taliban terrorists re-grouped but current Govt did not compromise and took strong and decisive action against enemies of Pakistan.
Pakistan Zindabad Taliban Murdabad
Talal khan,
Thanks for your comments @5:08 am
Most Christians and Jews have eventualy realized their Holy Scriptures cannot be interpretted as literal word of God.Our problem is that it is impossible to understand Quran without the help of Ahadith.This complicates the issue,i agree with you we can’t have a concesus of ulema.
I believe all religions are false but i don’t have a problem with people believing in what ever they like,they have every right to worship their gods.
They can worship phallus if they like as long they don’t try to shove it into other people,no amount of lubricant is going to make it pleasant.
We are becoming more radical with the passage of time.We must raise our voice against rise of fundamentalism.It started with Bhutto(i have lot of respect for him as a politician).
He made a blunder by amending the constitution to declare Ahmadies as non muslisms.
May be he was ill advised by Kausar Niazi.This started the interference of mullah in state’s affairs and got ugly during Zia’s tyrant regime.
The educated class should force Islamic scholars to unite against the cancer of fundamentalism.
Muslims all over the world are sandwiched between religious fundamentalism on one side and secular imperialism and neo coloniasim on the other.They need to rise above both to create a peaceful world.
@zia m
I share ur views. In my opinion interference of Mulla’s didnt start in Bhutto’s time.It started after partition when Joginder Nath Mandel was law minister and Sir Zafarullah was made foriegn minister.Mullahs were not happy,but they couldn’t do any thing because of the Qaid’s popularity.Later on in Ayub’s time things got ugly resulting in riots and there fore army taking over control of Lahore.
I guess Justice Munir,Kiyani commision report should be taught to every pakistani or should be included in Pakistan studies in high schools or colleges.
THE SAVIOUR OF PAKISTAN IMRAN KHAN…………….is among many PPP ministers and Maulana Fazlu who have left for Europe for summer holidays to avoid scorching heat in Pakistan……..
http://www.khabrain.com/aaj-akhbar.aspx?pg=8
@lota
I may or may not believe in biological evolution but I have no problem in accepting social and political evolution. If there is another system of governing Muslims , other than Khilafa and its working out better, so be it.
The problem is, that people pick up on controversies and differences between prominent personalities including Caliphs and use it to attack the ideology is Islam. And thats why I questioned the intentions behind the criticism. You talk about the divisions and sects in Muslims and I am sure brining up these centuries old differences is doing a great good to the unity that you are so worried about.
Its over simplification to claim that Muslims were divided into sects due to the ruling system of Khilafa. This whole thing was influenced by numerous theological, geographical, social, political , personal and tribal factors.You are ignoring the importance of the tribal society and its influence on the differences between Muslims in early days, especially when Islam spread into vast areas, Not everybody was trained by Muhammad (PBUH). Also the actions of Shaba should be seen in the light of their whole character and not as individual acts. If someone tells me Musharaf donated a million dollars for the cause of missing persons, it wont change anything about him, I will see it in the light of his character. Portraying Caliphs as power grabbers is wrong , if you dont see it in the light of their whole life and character and their attitude towards worldly gains.
In the slavery debated the thing that confused me was your statement about an Aayah in Quran, since you have offered , i will ask the question in simple words without copy pasting.
You said why there wsnt an Aayah in Quran , abolishing slavery and people would have complied and this would have stopped? . The conclusion which I can draw from your statement is
1. you are telling Allah that He didnt include an Aayah which He should have.
2. Or you dont believe in Quran , which is fine by me that there are coultless others who dont and I am not issuing fatwas.
So could you kindly tell me which one of my conclusions is correct and if not what exactly you mean by suggesting that there should have been an Aahay , which isnt there?
Biological evolution is a fact; there is no debate on it if it actually happened. When it comes to things invented by gora sahib be it electricity, bulbs, car, airplane, computers, internet, operating systems and internet browsers we jump on them and use them. If everything western was so bad and we didn’t use it we would be sitting in a hut without any light. So if democracy is working all over the world there is nothing wrong with using it also. It may not be perfect but it is better than everything else we got.
lota sahib
let me interrupt for a while and try to explain between culture and civilization. in islam you adopt good things from other civilizations like Hazrat Omar RA adopted registration system from the persians, no problem in that. all the things that you mentioned above fall under civilization and that is fine.
the problem comes when we try to adopt things from other circle that is culture. Culture emanates from ideologies that present certain view points. For example a cross can be wore by a muslim because cross means something, or a muslim can not have sandoor on for face because that also belongs a specific culture.
so things that belong to specific culture and represent specific ideology can not adopted, other things are welcome
i hope this explain
***correction***
a cross can NOT be wore by a muslim
When you read history of Islam as a student you find a lot of troubling things. There are things that happened that I didn’t put them there. They are in the history books and the religious books sirah’s of the prophet or the four books of ahadis whether you like it or not they are there. Why would you want to ignore them if they actually happened? The divisions and sects are there for a reason. If certain events didn’t happen than these divisions wouldn’t happen. All the information about the life of prophet comes from books written after his death. These books were written over a period of time and when you read them you can see things are constantly added in them. Even when you read the four major books of ahadis you find tons of hadiath that are inaccurate. The religion we practice as Islam has too many remixes and additions in it and that goes for everyone be it Sunni, Shia or ibadi. The time of the caliphate was a very turbulent time and if you study that period you will also get contradictions and lies. So your idea of unity may be of putting things under the carpet and ignoring they are not there to achieve harmony but it doesn’t work for me. If both sides of the equation do not hold up than something is wrong. So when we as Muslims claim that what we have is perfection and everyone else has corruption we ignore that the same process has run its course with us also. We are not so different and most of our problems are things that have been inserted by people down the road to serve a special interest. All this may be hard to understand if you don’t read these books and see for yourself.
@lota
I said I had no problem in accepting any system which can work better for us God knows why you jumped on writtiwng this paragraph again. My question was at the end my my comment and I will wait for the answer, all ears.
There were numerous theological, geographical, social, political, personal and tribal factors I agree but the caliphate was also a dividing factor among them. There was a power struggle ever since the prophet was ill and it continued after his death during the whole caliphate.
I guess the answer depends on how much you have read on the life of the caliphs. When you see the whole character the disturbing trend continues since the time of jahliya caliph Omar buried his new born daughter in the ground. He was traumatized by her dying cries his whole life. Caliph Omar and Caliph Ali were big alcoholics before Islam. I’ll just leave it at two examples before your blood pressure goes up. I didn’t made these examples up you will find these and many others in our Sunni history books that is accepted reading material.
@FSM
Thanks for correcting me.You are right about Mullah interference started early on with Ahrar and JI.It has probably reached climax with the advent of Taliban.
@JanuGerman Khan
Dear friend
Why your approach is so narrow and why you get involved in non-issues like
…a cross can not be wore by a muslim because cross means something…
…a muslim can not have sandoor on for face because that also belongs a specific culture…
Such an approach is diverting muslims away from Islam.
You said that,”… in islam you adopt good things from other civilizations…
I feel that some of the good things from other civilizations are:
Education & Research, Democracy, Human Rights, Women’s Rights, Animal’s Rights, Tolerance, Truthfulness, Freedom of expression etc.
Which of these are adopted by muslims?
I feel that if muslims have adopted any thing from other culture, it is suicide bombing and terrorism. Am I wrong?
The question I asked was if Islam is a continuation of Judaism and Christianity. Than the Jews who are the chosen people were enslaved and Moses came and freed them. If slavery is such a bad thing which we know it is than how come it isn’t abolished. Hence the question why not abolishes slavery? If a religion claims it is perfect and for all times and today we are killing and dying in the name of it since it cures all the ills of mankind than how come it didn’t end slavery. If Islam allows slavery and it gives a Muslim a right to rape his female slave or just enslave a man than that is wrong. I was reading maududi and he writes that if a conquering Muslim army conquers non believers than we are free to enslave their women. Islam allows it and they will be fruits of war. If god wills it in the Quran it becomes law. Muslims obey god’s will. For a religion that is to be a complete way of life the omission of abolishment of slavery is a big over sight. If god is not going to abolish slavery than who will? I have read on slavery and so far the established Islamic scholars have done very poorly on it. I still have a few more scholars to go on this topic before I can be certain that Islam looks at slavery in a certain way. I know where I stand and this would be a good judge of
ذلك فسق اليوم يئس الذين كفروا من دينكم فلا تخشوهم واخشون اليوم اكملت لكم دينكم واتممت عليكم نعمتي ورضيت لكم الاسلام دينا
This day have those who disbelieve despaired of harming your religion. So fear them not, but fear ME. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed MY favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion
Quran 5:3
lota
of course muslim’s view points are “narrow” from secularist point of view
any way you are just spraying ideas, terms and history around for which i don’t find time and motivation to respond
i suggest you debate more on creation vs evolution first to get the point where you start to believe that this whole universe was created by a creator and then we progress forward to prophets & shariah
what is the point of quoting sources if one doesn’t even believe in?
so how did matter came in to being by itself?
did matter create itself or matter was created by some other being?
@lota
You are right about slavery it never was abolished by any of the Abrahamic religions.In judaism it was encoursged to kill men,women and children and enslave all the virgin women.It is nauseating to read the Old Testament.
Islam never abolished slavery just instructed to treat slaves better.
@JanuJerman Khan said
“so how did matter came in to being by itself?”
There is lot of research going on particle science.There are 10,000 scientists and engineers working at CERN’s Large Hadron Collider(LHC) Care to tell me how many of them are Muslims.We had one Dr Abdus Salam its well known how he was treated by narrow minded Muslims.
There is no way of knowing if a Supreme Being exists or not.Science is agnostic about it.
Using your own logic .Who created God?
zia m
you are jumping in to a discussion i had with lota…well..cern’s research is fine, so is the working of people there… don’t know what u mean…
good to explore nature and principals i don’t disagree
go work there and make money if you are qualified enough
Denying evolution is like medieval people denied earth is round and it revolves around the sun.
evolution can mean many things, what exactly are you referring to?
@JanuJerman Khan
If you don’t know what i mean,please,quit asking stupid questions on a public forum.
Discussion was on biological evolution.
zia m
fine.
@lota
Aaien Baaien Shaaien
The question I asked was simple, and for your convenience I will ask again:
If Quran doesnt have your ‘ desired’ orders for abolishing slavery , what is your belief about Quran?
A. I dont believe in Quran
B. I believe in Quran but Allah missed an Aayah which He should have included,
C Non of the above and I dont have the guts to say what I really mean?
You cant start from Moses , even Adam and can write a full lecture but my question is still very simple, try again
@bhola
And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess(Q. 4:24 )
An omniscient GOD would never write such thing which we in 21st century regard it as most despicable act.You can expect it from an arabian god.
@zia m
“….There is no way of knowing if a Supreme Being exists or not.Science is agnostic about it.
Using your own logic .Who created God?”
usually I don’t get involved in these kinds of discussion but some time I have to jump in to comment onto something which has been argued since ages and will continue like this till the end of times.
To answer your question, Who created God. The answer is NO ONE. Allah is not created. Just read a good tafseer of Surah Ikhlas and then we can have a debate on it.
@FSM
“…An omniscient GOD would never write such thing which we in 21st century regard it as most despicable act.You can expect it from an arabian god.”
what about in 6th, 7th, 8th till 19th century. If, lets say, Allah mentioned something in Quran about airplanes or semiconductor technology, who would had understood it then. Quran, although, was revealed as a guidance for the humanity till qiyamah, still it had information for the people of that time to make them understand it according to their knowledge of that age, with signs to be proven for the times to come. If you think, human race is done with its technological advancement then wait for another 100 yrs and if you come out of your grave to see the world again, you will be considered as a cave-man (par kithoan your bones will be decomposed by then and you will have no future then anyway, according to your own agnostic views)
For me, if most of the Quranic predictions about scientific theories have been proven without exception by now then why shouldn’t I believe the rest of the text as truth too. If you can’t comprehend the Quranic teachings then its your fault not mine, because your (human) limited knowledge cannot even come up with a 4th primary color, leave aside other big things.
Nhajul Balagha
Sermon#1
Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.
The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.
Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.
The Creation of the Universe
He initiated creation most initially and commenced it originally, without undergoing reflection, without making use of any experiment, without innovating any movement, and without experiencing any aspiration of mind. He allotted all things their times, put together their variations gave them their properties, and determined their features knowing them before creating them, realising fully their limits and confines and appreciating their propensities and intricacies.
When Almighty created the openings of atmosphere, expanse of firmament and strata of winds, He flowed into it water whose waves were stormy and whose surges leapt one over the other. He loaded it on dashing wind and breaking typhoons, ordered them to shed it back (as rain), gave the wind control over the vigour of the rain, and acquainted it with its limitations. The wind blew under it while water flowed furiously over it.
Then Almighty created forth wind and made its movement sterile, perpetuated its position, intensified its motion and spread it far and wide. Then He ordered the wind to raise up deep waters and to intensify the waves of the oceans. So the wind churned it like the churning of curd and pushed it fiercely into the firmament throwing its front position on the rear and the stationary on the flowing till its level was raised and the surface was full of foam. Then Almighty raised the foam on to the open wind and vast firmament and made therefrom the seven skies and made the lower one as a stationary surge and the upper one as protective ceiling and a high edifice without any pole to support it or nail to hold it together. Then He decorated them with stars and the light of meteors and hung in it the shining sun and effulgent moon under the revolving sky, moving ceiling and rotating firmament.
The Creation of the Angels
Then He created the openings between high skies and filled them with all classes of His angels. Some of them are in prostration and do not kneel up. Others in kneeling position and do not stand up. Some of them are in array and do not leave their position. Others are extolling Allah and do not get tired. The sleep of the eye or the slip of wit, or languor of the body or the effect of forgetfulness does not effect them.
Among them are those who work as trusted bearers of His message, those who serve as speaking tongues for His prophets and those who carry to and fro His orders and injunctions. Among them are the protectors of His creatures and guards of the doors of the gardens of Paradise. Among them are those also whose steps are fixed on earth but their necks are protruding into the skies, their limbs are getting out on all sides, their shoulders are in accord with the columns of the Divine Throne, their eyes are downcast before it, they have spread down their wings under it and they have rendered between themselves and all else curtains of honour and screens of power. They do not think of their Creator through image, do not impute to Him attributes of the created, do not confine Him within abodes and do not point at Him through illustrations.
Description of the Creation of Adam
Allah collected from hard, soft, sweet and sour earth, clay which He dripped in water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey. From it He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments. He solidified it till it dried up for a fixed time and a known duration. Then He blew into it out of His Spirit whereupon it took the pattern of a human being with mind that governs him, intelligence which he makes use of, limbs that serve him, organs that change his position, sagacity that differentiates between truth and untruth, tastes and smells, colours and species. He is a mixture of clays of different colours, cohesive materials, divergent contradictories and differing properties like heat, cold, softness and hardness.
Then Allah asked the angels to fulfil His promise with them and to accomplish the pledge of His injunction to them by acknowledging Him through prostration to Him and submission to His honoured position. So Allah said:
“Be prostrate towards Adam and they prostrated except Iblis (Satan).” (Qur’an, 2:34; 7:11; 17:61; 18:50; 20:116)
Self-importance withheld him and vice overcame him. So that he took pride in his own creation with fire and treated contemptuously the creation of clay. So Allah allowed him time in order to let him fully deserve His wrath, and to complete (man’s) test and to fulfil the promise (He had made to Satan). Thus, He said:
“Verily you have been allowed time till the known Day. ” (Qur’an, 15:38; 38:81)
Thereafter, Allah inhabited Adam (p.b.u.h.) in a house where He made his life pleasant and his stay safe, and He cautioned him of Iblis and his enmity. Then his enemy (Iblis) envied his abiding in Paradise and his contacts with the virtuous. So he changed his conviction into wavering and determination into weakness. He thus converted his happiness into fear and his prestige into shame. Then Allah offered to Adam (p.b.u.h.) the chance to repent, taught him words of His Mercy, promised him return to His Paradise and sent him down to the place of trial and procreation of progeny.
Allah chooses His Prophets
From his (Adam’s) progeny Allah chose prophets and took their pledge for his revelation and for carrying His message as their trust. In course of time many people perverted Allah’s trust with them and ignored His position and took compeers along with Him. Satan turned them away from knowing Him and kept them aloof from His worship. Then Allah sent His Messengers and series of His prophets towards them to get them to fulfil the pledges of His creation, to recall to them His bounties, to exhort them by preaching, to unveil before them the hidden virtues of wisdom and show them the signs of His Omnipotence namely the sky which is raised over them, the earth that is placed beneath them, means of living that sustain them, deaths that make them die, ailments that turn them old and incidents that successively betake them.
Allah never allowed His creation to remain without a Prophet deputised by Him, or a book sent down from Him or a binding argument or a standing plea. These Messengers were such that they did not feel little because of smallness of their number or of largeness of the number of their falsifiers. Among them was either a predecessor who would name the one to follow or the follower who had been introduced by the predecessor.
The Prophethood of Muhammmad
In this way ages passed by and times rolled on, fathers passed away while sons took their places till Allah deputised Muhammmad (peace be upon him and his progeny) as His Prophet, in fulfilment of His promise and in completion of His Prophethood. His pledge had been taken from the Prophets, his traits of character were well reputed and his birth was honourable. The people of the earth at this time were divided in different parties, their aims were separate and ways were diverse. They either likened Allah with His creation or twisted His Names or turned to else than Him. Through Muhammmad (p.b.u.h.a.h.p.) Allah guided them out of wrong and with his efforts took them out of ignorance.
Then Allah chose for Muhammmad, peace be upon him and on his progeny, to meet Him, selected him for His own nearness, regarded him too dignified to remain in this world and decided to remove him from this place of trial. So He drew him towards Himself with honour. Allah may shower His blessing on him, and his progeny.
The Holy Qur’an and Sunnah
But the Prophet left among you the same which other Prophets left among their peoples, because Prophets do not leave them untended (in dark) without a clear path and a standing ensign, namely the Book of your Creator clarifying its permission and prohibitions, its obligations and discretion, its repealing injunctions and the repealed ones, its permissible matters and compulsory ones, its particulars and the general ones, its lessons and illustrations, its long and the short ones, its clear and obscure ones, detailing its abbreviations and clarifying its obscurities.
In it there are some verses whose knowledge [1] is obligatory and others whose ignorance by the people is permissible. It also contains what appears to be obligatory according to the Book [2] but its repeal is signified by the Prophet’s action (sunnah) or that which appears compulsory according to the Prophet’s action but the Book allows not following it. Or there are those which are obligatory in a given time but not so after that time. Its prohibitions also differ. Some are major regarding which there exists the threat of fire (Hell), and others are minor for which there are prospects of forgiveness. There are also those of which a small portion is also acceptable (to Allah) but they are capable of being expanded.
@bechari-awam
You are missing the point.You started your rant without reading the previous post where question was raised who created the matter? Like i mentioned before there is lot of research being undertaken at Large Hadron Collider to find out more about matter.
I do believe in a Supreme Being.I can appreciate Higher Power by studying cosmology and astronomy not through any scriptures
There are Muslim scholars who think they can harness nuclear energy from Jinns.Keep it up! We will soon land in the 7th century.If science was to be found in Holy Books we would have a monoply on Nobel prizes in science.
We have NO SHAME.
@FSM
004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah’s ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hands_possess
@zia m
cite=”You are missing the point.You started your rant without reading the previous post where question was raised who created the matter? Like i mentioned before there is lot of research being undertaken at Large Hadron Collider to find out more about matter.
I do believe in a Supreme Being.I can appreciate Higher Power by studying cosmology and astronomy not through any scriptures
There are Muslim scholars who think they can harness nuclear energy from Jinns.Keep it up! We will soon land in the 7th century.If science was to be found in Holy Books we would have a monoply on Nobel prizes in science.
We have NO SHAME.”
Actually it was also supposed to be a pun on you. When the people like you wants to distract muslims with limited knowledge, they pose this question. Good luck on finding the origin of matter. I will also suggest them to find the origin of pain too. Hopefully they wouldn’t trace it back to Pandora’s box
Using your own logic . Who created energy?”
Aaien Baaien Shaaien
The question I asked was simple, and for your convenience I will ask again:
If Quran doesnt have your ‘ desired’ orders for abolishing slavery , what is your belief about Quran?
A. I dont believe in Quran
B. I believe in Quran but Allah missed an Aayah which He should have included,
C Non of the above and I dont have the guts to say what I really mean?
I don’t believe in slavery. It is immoral to enslave anyone under any circumstances. I am trying to read on this topic if Islam permits slavery. If it does than my choice is clear.
@bechari-awam
@zia m
ground break reasarch on matter and energy by muslim scholar, issue resolved
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyAAiBEosRM
@lota6177
Unless you prove it wrong scientifically, I will accept it as a true phenomenon and this time I am serious.
Slavery is a socio-econimoic institution,in which some human individuals called slaves become property of others, calles masters or owners.Devoid of freedom and liberty.
Deprived of any human rights,slaves are the unconditional possession of their owners mere chattels.
The position of slaves in a society in many respects is akin to that of domesticated animal. Just as cows,horses etc.
@bechari-awam
Don’t you think the onus is on you to prove what you claim?
Bro,be careful you might get swallowed by a black hole!
Islam did not institute slavery but embraced the age old practice with open arms and gave it a divine validation to last for the eternity and promoted to an unprecedented scale.
In Quran Allah repeatedly gave approval of slavery as part of his divine plan,which must stand until the end of the world.
Prophet of Islam participated in more than 70 Ghazwats according to Tabari.With the exception of Uhud and Khandaq (Trench), all of them were incursions.
Almost all Islamic site describing these Ghazwats states
“.According to the prevailing practice all the prisoners were made slaves and distributed among the victorious Muslim soldiers.”
Prophet of Islam enslaved the children and women of Banu Quraiza,Khyber,Banu Mustaliq,after slaughtering the men.
Safia,Rehana,Jaweria were all booty of wars besides Maria the coptic girl who was sent by the governor of Egypt as a gift after recieving a threatning letter.
Slavery existed for thousands of years before Islam. When Islam came the sharia addressed the reality of slavery that was prevalent at the time by bringing new legislation on the treatment of slaves that aimed at raising their status and eventually their freedom.
Although nowadays there are no sharia circumstances where slavery can return, the issue of Islam and slavery is the subject of much misunderstanding and propaganda by the enemies of Islam. Some even go as far as believing a future Khilafah would re-introduce slavery to the world.
Islam treated slaves in a way that eased the position of slavery imposed upon them. The fuqaha (scholars) laid down many rules detailing the treatment of slaves that ultimately led to them being set free either compulsorily or voluntarily. These rules are summarised in the following issues:
Firstly, Islam found people owning slaves so it treated the problem of slaves by addressing the owners. It dealt with slavery in such a way that gave rights to the slave whilst also maintaining their humanity. The slave is the same as a free person in relation to the natural attributes man is endowed with.
Allah (swt) in the Noble Qur’an and the Messenger of Allah (SAW) in the honoured hadith exhorted the treating of slaves with kindness.
Allah (swt) says:
وَٱعۡبُدُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَلَا تُشۡرِكُواْ بِهِۦ شَيۡـًٔ۬اۖ وَبِٱلۡوَٲلِدَيۡنِ إِحۡسَـٰنً۬ا وَبِذِى ٱلۡقُرۡبَىٰ وَٱلۡيَتَـٰمَىٰ وَٱلۡمَسَـٰكِينِ وَٱلۡجَارِ ذِى ٱلۡقُرۡبَىٰ وَٱلۡجَارِ ٱلۡجُنُبِ وَٱلصَّاحِبِ بِٱلۡجَنۢبِ وَٱبۡنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ وَمَا مَلَكَتۡ أَيۡمَـٰنُكُمۡۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ مَن ڪَانَ مُخۡتَالاً۬ فَخُورًا
“Worship Allah; join nothing with Him. Be good to your parents, to relatives, to orphans, to the needy, to neighbours near and far, to travellers in need and those whom your right hands possess. Allah does not like arrogant, boastful people.” [TMQ 4:36]
The meaning of “those whom your right hands possess” is your slaves.
read more about The Islamic View on Slaves and Slavery
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/foreign-policy/2764-the-islamic-view-on-slaves-and-slavery
@JanuJerman Khan
What was the crime of those women and children of jewish tribes of Madina?
Holy prophet did not believe that slaves have any right. You could be a happily married woman living your own life, but if Prophet and his devout followers attacked your town and captured you, you would lose all your rights, and while your husband was being killed or enslaved you would be given to a Muslim Mujahid who would rape you all with Allah’s blessings?
The institution of slavery in Islam was formalized in the following Quranic verses:
Allah warns the believers against taking the slaves as equal partner in status and in sharing their wealth,lest they have to fear them as any one.
….do ye have partners among those whom your right hands possess, to share as equals in the wealth We have bestowed on you? Do ye fear them as ye fear each other? Thus do we explain the Signs in detail to a people that understand(Quran 30:28).
Allah does not only sanction the institution of slavery,He also gave his blessing to masters to have sex with the female slaves.
And those who guard their chastity.Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed (Q70: 29-30).
There for if there are women amongst the captive or slaves,Muslims are divinely sanctioned to have sex with them as they do with their wives.
Here Allah is gives a divine sanction to to Muslims for acquiring female slaves for sexual engagement by waging war against the infidel
………O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;(Q33:50).
There are other verses in Quran that talks approvingly of slaves and capturing them in wars.Thus according to the divine commands of Allah as enshrined in Quran,Muslims are allowed to keep slaves and use them as they wish.
For Mulims having sex with female slaves is as legal as having sex with their married wives.
mr fsm,
i see your hatred and contempt against Allah & His Messenger saw and I feel it is not right to debate on shariah matters with the one who doesn’t even believe in first place
for you i like to rather start from existence of Allah swt (rationally) and then proceed forward to need of ‘wahi’ and prophets and then we can debate on the message of Messenger saw that he brought to us from Allah swt.
thanks
Quran makes it legal for Muslim males to keep female prisoners of war as slaves (“whom thy right hand possess”) and rape them.
Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. Surah 4:24
Tafsir of Maulana Mawdudi, Book2, page 112, footnote 44:
That is,Those women, who became prisoners of war, while their husbands are left behind in the War Zone, are not unlawful because their marriage ties have been broken by the fact that they have come into the Islamic Zone. It is lawful to marry such women and make them wives, and it is also lawful for those, in whose possession they are, to have sexual relations with them.
1. There was, however, a difference of opinion as to whether such a woman is lawful if her husband has also been captured along with her. Imam Abu Hanifah and those of his way of thinking are of the opinion that the marriage tie of such a pair should remain intact but Imam Malik and Shafi are of the opinion that it should be broken.?
As there exist many misunderstandings in the minds of people concerning the slave-girls taken as prisoners of war, the following should be carefully studied:
(1) It is not lawful for a soldier to have conjugal relations with a prisoner of war as soon as she falls into his hands. The Islamic Law requires that all such women should be handed over to the government, which has the right to set them free or to exchange them with the Muslim prisoners in the hands of the enemy or distribute them among the soldiers. It is lawful for a soldier to cohabit only with that woman who has been formally given to him by the Islamic government.
(2) Even then, he shall have to wait for one monthly course before he can cohabit with her in order to ensure whether she is pregnant or not; otherwise it shall be unlawful to cohabit with her before delivery.
(3) It does not matter whether the female prisoner of war belongs to the People of the Book or not. Whatever her religion, she becomes lawful for the man to whom she has been given.
This scholarly commentary makes plain what is going on. Those women whom “thy right hand possess” are slaves who have no human rights and must submit sexually to anyone who “owns” them. Such actions toward female prisoners of war is, today, considered a war crime under the Geneva Convention.
fsm
i made two suggestions to you
read the book i cited above to under islam’s view on slave & slavery, in case you believe in Allah & His Messenger
if you are mulhid which is obvious from your writing & attack on quran/sunnah, i rather debate if Allah swt exists or not and then proceed forward.
tell me do you believe Allah swt the creator of all matter exists or not?
@JanuJerman Khan
No I don not hate any religion. We are talking about slavery here,and I am simply giving you the historical facts which cannot be denied because they are in the history books written by devout Muslims.
To talk about slavery would require a lengthy discussion.I would love to discus with any knowledgeble person.Muslims generaly do not know about history of slavery in Islam.
That how many captured slave women were brought to Arabia by Musa bin Naseer from Spain. How many women slaves were brought from India.How slavery flourished in Islamic Empire.
Where were all those slave markets in the Muslim world?
@FSM
I am reprinting a paragraph posted earlier.
The matter with choun choun is its all choun choun not to read and understand.
Its not possible to engage your kind into academic of discussion.
You are a big mouth with tiny brain…we can call you Piyar se…Mental Midget.
“In it there are some verses whose knowledge [1] is obligatory and others whose ignorance by the people is permissible. It also contains what appears to be obligatory according to the Book [2] but its repeal is signified by the Prophet’s action (sunnah) or that which appears compulsory according to the Prophet’s action but the Book allows not following it. Or there are those which are obligatory in a given time but not so after that time. Its prohibitions also differ. Some are major regarding which there exists the threat of fire (Hell), and others are minor for which there are prospects of forgiveness. There are also those of which a small portion is also acceptable (to Allah) but they are capable of being expanded.”
What was repeal by Prophet’s sunnah…no more acquisition of slaves by purchase which was strictly followed by Khulfa-e-Rashideen and liberating slaves at every possible opportunity.
This is your first test if you can read a para in English then prove that you understand it also…Once you cross the limits of mental midget you are fit to get into academic discussion of this class.
@FSM
You wrote
“No I don not hate any religion. We are talking about slavery here,and I am simply giving you the historical facts which cannot be denied because they are in the history books written by devout Muslims.”
I bet you don’t hate any religion
Because to hate a religion you must understand that religion
So far you have not shown your capability to understand any religion.
fsm
so you believe in Allah swt to be the creator of whole universe ? and then we can proceed to other things
i already shared with you a comprihensive view on slavery, care to read?
@JanuJerman Khan
After establishing Allah’s existence what do you want to prove?
proof two entities
creation and the creator
so do you believe that the almighty creator created this universe ?
Hain Kawakib Kuch Aur Nazar Ataay Hein Kuch Aur
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/07/090711_sex_workers_na.shtml
The hidden Agenda of the West in Pakistan.
@Adhanan Ashraf Manzoori
Kia baat hai ? Khwab puray hote nazar naheen aarahe ? Hidden agenda of west nazar aana shroo ho gaya hai ? Taliban ka hidden agenda “chakna choor” hota naza aaraha hai ? Allah aapko sabar ata farmae.
Jawaban AEEN, BAEEEN, SHAEEEEN na shroo kar daina. Loag kia kaheen gay.
Indian official resigns over a bridge collapse and raja pervez ashraf will never resign over his false statements regarding loadshedding.
Taking full responsibility for the Metro bridge collapse in Delhi, in which 6 people were killed and 13 injured E Sreedharan resigned sunday as the DMRC cheif.
Technically, someone else should take the responsibility but I have decided to quit. I am sending my resignation to Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit,” said the DMRC chief in a press conference.
Delhi Government however said it will not take any “hasty decision” on resignation of the Delhi Metro chief, PTI reported.
Earlier in the day, six persons, including an engineer, were killed and 13 others injured when an under-construction over-bridge of the Delhi Metro collapsed, in the second such incident in eight months.
The accident took place as one of the pillars of the bridge gave in when a launcher was being erected close to Lady Sriram College in Dhamrudpur in Lajpat Nagar at around 5am.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS-City-Delhi-DMRC-chief-E-Sreedharan-quits-over-metro-bridge-mishap/articleshow/4768992.cms
@fsm
Maududi is really a mentally sick man. His interpretations along with wahab and kutab are really sickening. Ideology like this made Bangladesh in 1971. The al badr and al sahmas practiced this ideology in Bangladesh and the word razakar is still used as a curse in that country. I sometimes wonder if there was another religion for example like Buddhist or a civilization like Incas who declared than in war time with a Muslim country when we invade a Muslim land after we kill all the men we will enslave all the women and legally use them as sex slaves with these conditions. Would they be considered as civilized people? Would you like to associate with people like these or be comfortable as having them as your neighbors? Thinking like this goes against every norm of human decency. I am not sure that there are animals who act this way?
@fsm
Muhammad bin Qasim had begun preparations for further expansions when Hajjaj died, as did Caliph Al-Walid I, who was succeeded by Sulayman ibn Abd al-Malik. After Hajjaj’s death, the new governor took revenge against all who were close to Hajjaj. Sulayman owed political support to opponents of Hajjaj and so recalled both of Hajjaj’s successful generals Qutaibah bin Muslim and Qasim. He also appointed Yazid ibn Yazid ibn al-Muhallab, once tortured by Hajjaj and a son of Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah, as the governor of Fars, Kirman, Makran and Sindh; he immediately placed Qasim in chains.[26]
There are two accounts regarding the details of Qasim’s fate:
The account from the Chachnama narrates a tale according to which the during Muhammad bin Qasim s governorship, the daughters of Dahir were taken captive and were sent on as presents to the Khalifa for his harem. The account relates that they then tricked the Khalifa into believing that Muhammad bin Qasim had violated them before sending them on and as a result of this subterfuge, Muhammad bin Qasim was wrapped in oxen hides and returned to Syria, resulting in his death en route from suffocation. This narrative attributes the motive for this subterfuge to securing vengeance for their father’s death. Upon discovering this subterfuge, the Khalifa is recorded to have been filled with remorse and ordered the sisters buried alive in a wall.[27][28]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Bin_Qasim
@janujerman khan
your link has already been posted and commented on in this thread
http://pkpolitics.com/2009/06/24/visitors-views-news-week-4-june-2009/
No point in reposting stuff.
I hope the mpa from pml-n will be banned from elections .. and must go jail for what she has done stealing credit card.. clear evidence against her as cctv recorded every thing ….
This is a bad bad luck of our country where punjab police has to seek permission of shahbaz shareef to file the case against her…. its a bad luck of our country where police is not independent institution and always remained a p!mp of governments … how can one get justice if police is playing p1mp of rich and powerful’s
Shahbaz sheeref you should dismiss those police SHO who didnt file the case at first …
@lota
All religions are based on ignorance and superstition.They believe in miracles and demons.
When humans did not understand different diseases they blamed the devil for them.
Some Muslims want to take us back to 7th century.
Qutb and Maudoodi were two of the greatest Muslim scholars, there is no denying the fact.It is not their fault most of the peaceful verses in Quran were abrogated later when Muslims became stronger.This is the cause of conflict with rest of the world and so many sects within Islam.
One does not have to believe in any religion in order to believe in a Supreme Being.I do believe everybody has a right to believe whatever they like but they have no right to impose it on other people like Taliban are doing.
You mentioned Chachnama,it is wonderful read.
zia m
This is exactly what a chinese communist told me during a trip to shanghai that religion is stupid superstitions, but what surprises me is to hear same thing from some one with a muslim name
Rehman malik take action against overseas pakistanis who do speak truth against the rulers.
http://jang.com.pk/jang/jul2009-daily/12-07-2009/update.htm#56
@all
please note that
lota, fsm, zia m, and talal khan are self proclaimed non-believers of Islam
Admin Samait = Mushtari Hoshiar BasH.
http://jang.com.pk/jang/jul2009-daily/12-07-2009/update.htm#56
@JanuGerman Khan
Was it necessary to make an annoucement as above? It is assumed that they were born in muslim families. There must be reasons that they lost their faith in religion. I have witnessed that a growing number of Pakistanis are losing faith in religion due to oppressive attitude of mullas.
bebus
yes i felt it necessary due to their contemptuous arguments against Islam.
no, growing number pakistanis are returning back to deen of islam -especially the youth-
@bebus
Quran says about momin…they do not change with circumstances.
Every human being is endowed with goodness…badness or evil is circumstantial.
A person who get into a position to get bribe…its circumstantial now theres a war between his good inside and bad outside.
Similarly faith in Allah can not be circumstantial or reactionary.
When you see few bad muslim you change your faith…when you see some good muslim you strengthen your faith….Faith in God should not be reactionary….otherwise its faith of convenience….it will change fast with removal of convenience.
@lota
Isnt it surprising that you are not even sure if you are a Muslim or not as you have to decide after your research about Slavery if you believe in Quran or not, and still you are so worried about divisions of Muslims and what happened in Islamic history?.
Anyways good luck in you reading, though you dont need it but a sincere advice about your reading and research.
If you read Quran and history and the rest of the books in-order to discover Fitna and fasad and controversies and stuff which you can bring up to ridicule the true religion, thats what you will get from Allah. But if you read to seek Hidaya, He will give you Hidaya. Also , if you have to leave some space for things which you cant explain by logic, the concept of Iman Bilghaib has been laughed upon by the PARRHA LIKHA ‘ enlightened’ folks, but without it one can never discover the truth, You are reading Modoodi Sahab’s, read the tafseer of first few Aayahs of Al-Baqarah again before you start reading anything.
Good luck
@bebus
“Was it necessary to make an annoucement as above? It is assumed that they were born in muslim families. There must be reasons that they lost their faith in religion. I have witnessed that a growing number of Pakistanis are losing faith in religion due to oppressive attitude of mullas.”
I will not say a growing number but many of the muslim youth from conservative families who come to west for education or after immigration, find it very tough to resist after seeing the colorful life over here. Because their upbringing doesn’t allow them to fulfill their desires they try to find excuses to satisfy their conscience. First one is usually to find any text which would create doubts in the religious teachings and most importantly about the life of the Prophet (pbuh), naudubillah. There is flood of text already available online from known/unknown sources to satisfy them. But I can say it from experience (not mine of-course
), once they are deep down in this sh1t, they realize the hollowness of the western culture and then they will try to find excuses to get back to their roots.
@admin
could you please warn all the guys against this dirty tactic of the zardari govt. against the freedom of expression. Please can you put it on top if possible.
http://www.aajtv.com/urdu/national/2009/07/12/52513_2_story.html
ایف آئی اے کوسائبرکرائمز کے تحت کارروائی کاحکم
اسلام آباد: ملک کی سیاسی قیادت کے خلاف ایس ایم ایس اور ای میل کے ذریعے پروپیگنڈا کرنے والوں کے خلاف کارروائی کا فیصلہ کرلیا گیا۔ وزارت داخلہ کی جانب سے جاری بیان کے مطابق وزیر داخلہ رحمن ملک کے حکم پر ملک کی سیاسی قیادت کے خلاف ایس ایم ایس اور ای میلز کے ذریعے پروپیگنڈا کرنے والوں کے خلاف کارروائی کا فیصلہ کیا گیا ہے اور اس ضمن میں ایف آئی اے کو سائبر کرائم کے تحت کارروائی کا حکم دیا گیا ہے۔
بیان میں کہا گیا ہے کہ ایف آئی اے نے اس حوالے سے بہت سے کام پہلے سے مکمل کر رکھا ہے اور ایک دو دن میں ان عناصر کے خلاف سخت کارروائی کی جائے گی۔ بیان کے مطابق بیرون ملک اس مقصد کے لئے استعمال ہونے والے ای میل ایڈریسز اور ویب سائٹس کی نشاندہی کے لئے انٹرپول سے بھی رابطہ کر لیا گیا ہے۔
@zia m
“One does not have to believe in any religion in order to believe in a Supreme ……..”
Very true
Anwar Shaikh in one of his book describes the concept of prophethood very beautifuly
“Prophethood is based on the doctrine of revelation: it means that God, the Creator, loves mankind so much that He wants to guide the human creatures to save them from hell. In return for this favour, God demands absolute submission, that is, man must worship the All-Mighty and live by His laws without ever questioning their purpose, validity and relevance.
The medium of revelation i.e. the person through whom God is supposed to reveal His will, is called the Prophet; he is God’s Agent on earth. Since God cannot be seen or contacted, the Prophet’s word begins to rank as the Word of God, and the Creator, for total lack of communication with people, recedes into the background. As a result, the Prophet, who (apparently) claims to be God’s most humble servant, rises as the dominant force in God-Prophet relationship. It is he who comes to hold the keys of paradise. Therefore, a person must believe in the Prophet to qualify for heaven; he who believes in God alone, cannot rank as a believer; he is an infidel and must go to hell, no matter how righteous he may be!
This exposes the true nature of Prophethood. If its purpose is to glorify God and guide people to righteousness, then how is it that salvation depends upon believing in the Prophet, and belief in God counts for nothing? Again, if the aim of Prophethood is to spread righteousness, then how can a righteous person be thrown into hell just for not acknowledging the Prophet? Even more baffling is the fact that God becomes powerless in relation to the Prophet because there is nothing that He can do for those who believe in Him alone.
@peterpan773
“..Very true
Anwar Shaikh in one of his book describes the concept of prophethood very beautifuly…”
btw who is this Anwar Shaikh and what are his credentials. Just by reading his pearls of wisdom above I can judge how confused he is in terms of his beliefs. On one side, he is accepting the presence of an Almighty God and on the other hand he is tying the hands of the God due to his incapability of doing anything in response to over-stepping of a prophet.
@bebus
Mullah is not Islam and Islam is not Mullah. So please stop blaming Islam because there are freak mullahs out there.
What do you have against reading muslim history? Would you rather beleive what molvie ding dong tells you after drinking a bottle of whiskey at night and than writing a book in the morning without any refrenses just based on his unfullfilled fanatasies. Islam over the years has gone through a lot of changes according to the time and a lot of things that are common accepted islamic beleifs are just reaction to the times with no foundation in islamic history. My personal favourite is the beleif the break up of muslim united ummah because we went astray due to our distance from true islamic principles and now we need to be pious again so we can get back there when there never exsisted such a thing in history. If you feel living your life on false pretenses or creatd history is being a momin and leads the path to heaven than by all means keep doing what your doing.
I already made this point earlier in my post that all information comes through books about the life of the prophet which were written after his death in turbulent times when Muslims were using the sword on each other. You are advising to ignore all the blood spilled on the pages of these books and just eat what we are being feuded. I guess you never wonder that if we already have the true religion as preached by you how come we Muslims are the most ignorant people and how come most of the societies that we have in different Islamic countries have failed the people that are living in them. To put the sole blame on America, India and Israel and not look inwards is acting like a pigeon.
Modoodi Sahib is the first tafseer i read 20 years ago and i have read it three times already. Nothing new in it and i am not impressed with Madoodi as a scholar or a person.
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-2808374571100926940&q=source:005572982656363337331&hl=en
@peterpan
We get brainwashed very early in our childhood through indoctrination by religion.
Logic has no place in religion.
@zia m
Qutb and Maudoodi were two of the greatest Muslim scholars, there is no denying the fact.It is not their fault most of the peaceful verses in Quran were abrogated later when Muslims became stronger.This is the cause of conflict with rest of the world and so many sects within Islam.
Qutub was a reactionary. He was born at a certain time where he saw brutal oppression under colonist. The Muslims were living under oppression in their own lands as subject to foreign powers. He went to America and saw the treatment of colored people. He was dark skinned and got to face racism. He was badly tortured in Egyptian prisons and saw people tortured to death. The only thing that provided relief to him and he can fall back on were the verses in Quran about jihad and that belief kept him together and the ideology he came up with should be seen in that context. In a different period when the christen world was using religion to crusade against the Muslims there came a time that noorul din and his student Saladin had to resort to a jihad ideology also to counter the tide of christen crusades. They used the same text to unite the Muslims and boost moral but when victory came there implementation over time was in some ways totally opposite of what qutub advocated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
As for blind taqlid in Islam and to not look for reason when the prophet started preaching Islam in Arabia the mushrakin Mecca who were idol worshippers gave the excuse of blind taqlid of gods and beliefs of their forefathers as a reason for being a kafir. I find it ironic that after 1400 years of Islam we are being told to do blind taqleed in Islam to be good momin’s and not look for reason. It is kind of interesting argument to make us better muslims to say the least.
@bhola
Iman Bilghaib and blind taqlid (following) the same thing?
@lota
@zia m
One of the best book ever written on Islam by a rationalist Ali Dashti “23 years of prophetic life”
Available on scribd dot com and also on Google.
lota, zia m continue in their propaganda & vilification campaign against Islam but these fools forget that Allah swt has taken it Himself to protect this deen from these fitna.
these mulhids are trying hard by throwing one topic after another to malign deen of Allah swt so all readers be aware of these mulhids and not to respond to these people
These are not only hardcore atheists but are working against Islam and Muslims
may Allah swt protect us from the fitna of these mulhids -ameen
@ bhola
Your comment on 12 July 8:51 PM
You admit that mulla is not Islam and Islam is not mulla.
Then why do you consider blaming mullas as blaming Islam?
Majority of mullas are professional mullas who will do anything to save their profession. They are responsible for Tafaqa and Tafarqa-dar-Tafarqa within Muslims. They create Fitnas amongst Muslims. They are responsible for all the ills in the society.
@bebus
I am not defending any mullah, never did in my comments. But I dont agree that they are responsible for ‘ all’ the ills in society. They have put their shar in, no doubt but not ‘ all’ the ills please.
@JanuJerman Khan
Who made you an authority on who is a Muslim or a non Muslim? Does being a ruttu totta a qualification? I have seen animals more smart than you one of them being “Jackie”. You come of as a complete idiot when you make statements like this than again you come off as an idiot when you’re not making statements so you might as well keep on with your choun choun. I don’t remember you being part of any debate other than copy and pasting some khalifa website. How long did it take for you to learn that skill? Now you can apply for the job of village idiot. You have a bright future ahead of you. You can issue certificates for who is a Muslim or not since you are over qualified for any other job.
lota you, zia m and talal have proclaimed yourselves that you are non-believers of Islam
would you like me to paste your comments here to remind you of what you have been saying?
why don’t you just admit what you are? if you don’t believe in Islam just say that I am non-muslim, no one is going block u here
getting emotional on being exposed -you hypocrite mulhid-
you and couple of others are not here to share political opinions rather you guys have agenda to vilify Islam and cause fitna -I have been noting your writings closely-
why guys are busy presenting ‘controversies’ and misconceptions of islam
in our culture lota is usually found in toilets and people use it to clean private parts
i see a misplaced lota here, should be in proper place -lol-
@janujerman khan
in our culture lota is usually found in toilets and people use it to clean private parts
i see a misplaced lota here, should be in proper place -lol-
Ignorant people like you use your hands to touch waste no wonder you are full of it. You don’t have the mental capacity to be in or understand a discussion. Why don’t you take your limited existence to a place where it can be utilized somehow by a jimatiya molvie and where it doesn’t invole you to bend over.
lota’s self proclaimation of being non-muslim is based on his writings. just a few to share below:
most of the peaceful verses in Quran were abrogated later when Muslims became stronger (saying quran is corrupted)
Care to explain why you would need Noah’s ark when you have evolution already? (it is all evolution)
The caliphate had problems from the start and it divided and alienated different segments of Muslim society. (attacking sahaba & khulafa-e-rashidun)
I was able to realize Islam evolved out of Judeo-Christian belief system. (again evolution crap)
you and couple of others are not here to share political opinions rather you guys have agenda to vilify Islam and cause fitna -I have been noting your writings closely-
why guys are busy presenting ‘controversies’ and misconceptions of islam
this site is not owned by you and we obey the rules it is operating under. When someone comes to your home you make the rules about which room they go in. On this site you dont have any say so know your role.
lota busted
lota is angry on being exposed, try changing nick and keeping it down for a while
i know my role, but the question is do you know the role & usage of lota in our society
You’re an idiot who can’t even copy and paste correctly. The threads are there for everyone to see they don’t need the services of a bacha of JI molvies to copy and paste. The quotes you posted only two of them are mine and the rest are made by others. What kind of idiot are you who can’t even copy and paste correctly.
@janu jerman khan
What makes you think I am angry? I am rather amused by your dim self. The JI molvies use you for purposes that are different than for what I find your existence amusing. Maybe you’re confused since you are not getting the attention you long for.
lota -
thanks for accepting that these are your writings and confirming your non-believer status
you approved other writings by saying i agree 100%, anyone interested can check it out.
you hypocrite mulhid, trying to hide
lota is used in toilets, what? do you even disagree on this part?
@janu jerman khan
i know my role, but the question is do you know the role & usage of lota in our society
I know for a fact that you extensively use a lota to clean a certain part after a visit from gul khan or any nazim from ji. I would like to thank you for always using me when i am needed most.
@janu jerman khan
most of the peaceful verses in Quran were abrogated later when Muslims became stronger (saying quran is corrupted)
This is not my quote but does the quran has abrogated verses?
Care to explain why you would need Noah’s ark when you have evolution already? (it is all evolution)
this is my quote, would you care to answer? or a very hard question for you, feel free to tackle it when you have any free time from your regular services.
The caliphate had problems from the start and it divided and alienated different segments of Muslim society. (attacking sahaba & khulafa-e-rashidun)
So are you an idiot who is saying it didn’t? Have you ever read any book on islamic history? If the answer is no that explains why you are so ignorant.
I was able to realize Islam evolved out of Judeo-Christian belief system. (again evolution crap)
Not my quote again idiot but Islam itself claims it is the extension of Judaism and Christianity
lota
come on be brave enough to admit that you don’t believe in islam
lota is a self-proclaimed non-believer of islam. so far he has clarified that he doesn’t believe in islam but hasn’t confirmed if he is hindu or atheist… seems he want to avoid this here
@JanuJerman Khan
lota
come on be brave enough to admit that you don’t believe in islam
Who are you to be asking me for anything? A word of advice work on your existence it is bad enough already that people around you have to deal with your presence. If you come on this website is it too much to ask of you to act decently. You can change your genetically inherited family trait online temporary so pumpkin please try. Anytime you have doubts just repeat I think I can I think I can.
@janujerman khan
lota is a self-proclaimed non-believer of islam. so far he has clarified that he doesn’t believe in islam but hasn’t confirmed if he is hindu or atheist… seems he want to avoid this here
And you are interested in knowing because you have a rishta lined up for me? You have opened your shadi ka daftar online. Are you all out of your olive eating Arab mujahids? You never stop marketing do you.
@JanuGerman Khan
Dear friend.
Please correct me if I am wrong in stating that you are trying to be the THEKEDAR of Islam.
bebus
lota is mad because i exposed him through his own writings…
@JanuGerman Khan
People read every thing which other people write on this forum. If some write that they do not believe in religion, it is their will. I or someone else will not go to their graves to answer on behalf of them. It is a matter between Allah and them. You don’t need to expose some one who honestly state about themselves. I said honestly becuse many of us who do not believe in religion, dishonestly talk otherwise.
@lota177 wrote
“Who are you to be asking me for anything? ”
Perhaps no one is nobody to ask you about your faith but little honesty is required in your so far munafiqana stand.
You are questioning basic tenets of Islam without declaring yourself as non muslim.
Once you declare you are non muslim then we can ask you about your new faith or faithless condition.
In a discussion its necessary you chose a platform…you yourself as a lota with your choun choun is nothing.
Islam is 1400 years old with its current form…as a result Islam has a overwhelming data bank where you can easily find all kind of good and bad stuff…you can also find overwhelming sectarian data and equally good and non sectarian data..now its your mischievous choice to pick up the bad data for mud slinging.
Your choice to stay away from Islam is welcome but your choice to smear Islam is not acceptable unless you declare your new faith or a parallel faith or faithlessness so you could also be questioned about your new faith.
Once you use your rights to criticize Islam on this forum then you must be ready to receive criticism on your new faith which must be having some available data to criticize but for that you need to declare your new platform for the honesty and integrity of discussion.
Otherwise its nothing but your one sided choun choun.
@JANUJERMANKHAN
good bashing of lota brother you have completely exposed this lota and busted his arguments he basically has nowhere to go but to return back to the filth of the toilets he is originally from.
@lota
you missed the point. Who am I to tell you or anyone that they are not allowed to read Islamic history. You can read history, architecture , archeology , whatever. My point was that if you dont believe in Islam, then why bothered about Muslims and their differences?. If you are not a Muslim , then whats the point?. There are enough miseries in the world and you can use your energies in helping out others and work for the a cause you actually do believe in. Rights of Red indians, history of Zulu tribes, struggle of le$bians etc etc.
Why is your Nazre Karam is on Islam though you dnt believe in it?. Leave the ‘ religious sheep’ alone and let them do what they want to do, nobody is asking you to do anything fro them. See my theory of filth was right you read to dig out filth and then be happy to smear it all over, you read to find out Fasad and that what Allah gives you.
@bhola
The filth is the twisted interpretations of Islam what you are trying to impose under the disguise of Islam in Pakistan. Instead of answering the questions asked you have been trying to win an argument like a gallie mahlay walie aurat. What you call fasad is the questions you can’t answer coming out of established books in Sunni Islam. Anyone who contradicts your fairytales and fables that you and your likes have invented to grab power is a murtid. So carry on back to offering your services to your Arab mujahidin brother in laws and telling people yeh apnaie hey log hain.
abdullaharqam
thanks bro
lota & co objective here is to spot Islam, Allah, Muhammad pbuh, hadith, Qur’an and start mulhid arguments to achieve two objectives 1) show their pseudo intellect on rationality and 2) divert muslims from their faith
and i am trying to show this “misplaced lota” in his “right place”
bhola
spot on!
Muadoodi the greatest Islamic scholar of the subcontinent at one point in his life had doubts about religion.
Allama Iqbal wrote Shikwa wonder WHY?
Muslims need to wake up before fundamentalism takes away our rights and makes us a barbaric nation.
No agnostic or non-believer is forcing you to anything.
Once I read the whole translation of Quran ( without tafseer).There were two things i could take away.
1.Belief in one God only.
2.Seek Ilm(Knowledge)
Muslims lack both these days.
@zia m
“Muadoodi the greatest Islamic scholar of the subcontinent at one point in his life had doubts about religion.”
reference please!
“Allama Iqbal wrote Shikwa wonder WHY?”
No, because he had a plan to write a “Jawab-i-Shikwa” too and if you want to know the reason, then we can have a debate on that too.
The problem I see here is not that you guys are willing to debate on the presumed flaws in Islamic teaching with open mind but you are trying to find a soft target, just to bog down your opponent and claim victory. All my comments/replies to-date remain unanswered while you found a target on @JJkhan who being an emotional chap fell in your trap. I will call it an intellectual d1shonesty at the very least.
@bechari-awam
Every intelligent human should have doubts in his/her beliefs.It is not a bad idea to suspect our faith and question it when learning the truth is our goal.Scoring points should never be the aim.
Don’t you think the apostasy and blasphemy laws should be repealed before you can even think of a fair debate.
I do give you credit for admitting there are soft targets in a religion.It is stupid to attack somebody for his moniker.
Open minded religion is oxymoron
@bhola
You believe in twisted interpretations of Islam that you can’t explain and when questioned about the beliefs you are advertising as sucha Islam instead of answering the questions label other people as trying to create a rift or fasad. The things that you are acknowledging are damaging are contained in authentic established Muslim history. You try to hide them under the carpet so you can advertise your interpretations as the only true face of Islam. The discussion was about slavery and the question asked was pretty simple. Does Islam allow slavery? If it is a religion for all times as stated in Quran are the laws that it gives us concerning slavery are enough? This was a great opportunity to prove how great and progressive of a religion Islam is but you have been on the defensive. Instead of putting forwards arguments you have gone on a slander campaign because you didn’t have any arguments. On the question of the so called Muslim unity under the caliphate I provided you link by al tarabi that show there wasn’t any harmony or consensus in the sahaba about the caliphate and all these things lead to civil war, divisions and rift. This clashes with fables and stories you have based your religion on and again you have gone crazy. The things that have brought up are present in sahid bukhari, sahi Muslim and sirah rasool ullah by ibn hashum and al tarabi. If you choose to ignore them than you should realize that everything that we know about Islam comes from these books. They were the earlier source and if you reject them you are left with nothing.
@jazoo
When the bad data is contained in the same books that are regarded as reliable and the same data is confirmed as authentic because it is present in multiple sources that explain Islamic history. Who decides what is good and what is bad? Why was the bad data put in the books with good data? How did it got in there? In any case it speaks volumes about the so called authentic text that everything is based on.
A debate on the question of slavery or caliphate has nothing to do with my faith. If you are claiming to have perfection that you should have some answers when you are asked some basic questions about what you are advertising as the truth you want to impose on the rest of the world while having no regards for anyone else belief. To support your arguments you can make me an atheist, Jew, christen, Hindu, murtid or whatever your heart desires but attacking me does not answer what is the status of slavery in Islam or if there was a unity in Muslims in the caliphate and if it is a golden time we should all try look back to.
misplaced lota again picking “good” & “bad” in Muslims, he tries to keep himself hidden while attacks muslim’s believes
this guy is true fitna here
@admin
kindly take a note here that lota61711 and zia m are using this forum to propagate their contempt against muslims and Islam. They continuously pick irrelevant topics to impose their atheist ideas on this forum.
kindly remove their posts & block their IP addresses
@Janujerman Khan
kindly take a note here that lota61711 and zia m are using this forum to propagate their contempt against muslims and Islam. They continuously pick irrelevant topics to impose their atheist ideas on this forum.
kindly remove their posts & block their IP addresses
The fact of the matter is that everything that is being discussed in this thread has already been discussed in this thread already.
http://pkpolitics.com/2009/06/24/visitors-views-news-week-4-june-2009/
No new information has been added since. The only thing new is you looking up the wiki definition of a lota. That is still progress in a way that you have started using Wikipedia, today the word lota tomorrow who knows what? When you don’t have a counter argument you are attempting censorship. The tuheen rusalat ordinance is also used for the same purposes in Pakistan and was made into law to achieve the same result. The only person who is right is the one who only speaks and agrees with the selected or distorted Islamic history that has been selectively approved by you for the benefit of Muslim ummah. Blame all the ills on others and never consider that you are in need of reformation. The reason why Islamic societies have turned oppressive and intolerant? Why terrorism is being used to achieve political objectives and why Muslim societies are failing when it comes to human rights. The perfect religion is failing to meet the challenges it is facing.
@janujerman khan
in our culture lota is usually found in toilets and people use it to clean private parts
i see a misplaced lota here, should be in proper place -lol-
i know my role, but the question is do you know the role & usage of lota in our society
My role is to clean you up what you are so full of and make you tolerable for the people around you and society in general.
lota
why don’t you leave us muslims and islam alone from your filth? go take your filth to toilet where you actually belong
don’t lie about your role, you are a liar, a coward liar who hides his own believes but attacks others fearing that others don’t hit him back
@jjkhan
Do you think women should have equal rights or we should consider them second class citizens?
zia m
what is your definition of “equal rights” and “second class citizens”
let me hear you out
Having laws prohibiting discrimination against women.
Givinig them equal opportunity in education and employment.
Equal pay
Equal inheritance laws.
Laws protecting battered women.Banning forced sex in marriage.
Their right to decide if they want to wear veil.
Abolishing polygamy.
Basically their right to do any job men can do including head of state.
Their right to participate in sports if they want.
zia m
After defeat of communism, there are two ideologies present in the world, call it way of life, view point, system of life, those are Secularism -separation of religion and state- meaning regardless of ones belief state rules of business will not emanate from religion-
second ideology present in the world though not practically in implementation any where is deen of Islam or Islamic way of life.
Being a Muslim means submitting to the will of Allah swt the almighty creator of you & me and the whole universe who revealed Qur’an to our beloved Prophet Muhammad pbuh. So when a person accepts deen of Islam he/she submits to the will of Allah swt as a whole and adopts the way of life emanating from this deen.
Now after that preface, Islam protects men & women in a society by giving them rights. These rights were in practice long before when Europe was in dark ages.
This women right thing isn’t new and there has been considerable amount of work done by Islamic scholar to rebuttal secularist’s attacks.
This discussion/debate can go on and on, but we Muslims submit to the will of Allah swt and obey the ahkam sharia.
If you have any particular question on women right, let me know as I don’t want to reinvent the wheel.
Spiritual rights
Criteria in the Sight of God to Judge Male and Female
Equal Moral Duties for Men and Women
Economical rights
Women on Job
Financial Security for Women
Compulsory Marital Gift for a Woman
No Financial Liabilities
Right to Inherit
Social rights
Social Rights to a Daughter
Social Rights to Wife
Social Rights to a Mother
Social Rights to a Sister
Educational rights
Legal rights
Political rights
Why talk about an ideology that is not implented any where?
Who is resposible for not implenting it?
Why not just give equal rights to everybody irrespective of gender?
I agree Islam was a revolutionary religion for that period in history.
Taliban would have been considered most civilized among Bedouin Arabs.
It is plain stupid trying to go back 1400 years. I expect better from Quaid’s Pakistan.
@JanuGerman Khan
In your comment above, you said:
….. So when a person accepts deen of Islam he/she submits to the will of Allah swt as a whole and adopts the way of life emanating from this deen…..
Will I be wrong to state in this regard that we all are Muslims or Christians or Hindus only because we were born in Muslim or Christian or Hindu Families? We never accepted the religion, that we own, but we were taught by our elders that our religion is the only true religion/sect and we believed in it. (There are rare exceptions that people have accepted a religion/sect after assessing the merits themselves, say like Yousuf Yohanna who accepted Islam)
Friend JanuGerman Khan, Can you tell me the date when you accepted Islam, without telling stories instead of a date. The date? Yes the Date only, when you accepted Islam as your religion
bebus, when people ask you about your belief you get mad and hit back with thekedar and how dare you ask me etc etc why not you be the first and tell us about yourself, I have already expressed my position?
zia m
good question “Why talk about an ideology that is not implented any where?”
in 1924 when kamal pasha abolished Khilafat-e-Usmania he imposed secularist secularism and banned many things among which arabic script, murdering of ullema, islam from govt etc and since then Islam as system of life has not been ALLOWED to implement in Muslim countries
even when muslims voted Islamic parties like in algeria, turkey, palestine west used secularist military elites to commit genocides. even taliban didn’t declare khilafat they claimed emirate of afghanistan and returned people from central asia to go back and work there yourself.
both communism and islam are not implemented currently but the difference is that communist stopped believing in communist way life !!! Muslim have been in decline due to various reasons and have been struggling to revive, first round was to get freedom from colonialists
second round was nationalist, we witnessed arab nationalism, turk nationalism etc
and now third round is return back to Islam as Muslims and reject western values!!!
Europe and America were proud to be “melting pot” but after realizing that even the 3rd generation immigrants are sticking to Islamic values they have now adopted cruel laws on forcing muslims to abandon Islamic values
Sarkozi recent statements are an evidence of west’s failure to convince muslims of their value system
we need to go back to the future and adhere to ahkam sharia as Muslims.
only way for Muslim’s revival is to reject western view point completely like democracy and implement Islamic way system -Khilafat !!!
I am sorry that i asked you a question.
Please take that khilafat back to Saudi Arabia where it belongs and take Taliban with you.
@janu jerman khan
If you have any particular question on women right, let me know as I don’t want to reinvent the wheel.
What is your view on “light beatings” o wise one. Please educate.
zia m
Allah swt revealed Qur’an on our beloved prophet Muhammad pbuh so that he is the best example for us on how to live this life.
Muslims believe in Allah swt and his last messenger Muhammad pbuh, even the most corrupt one who drinks alcohol or indulges in fornication is 1000 times stronger believer of Allah and Muhammad pbuh than a christian priest !!!
House of Saud are one of the most corrupt and oppressive rulers in the world, khilafat belongs to Muslim ummah and is not restricted to any geographical boundary! dig it
lota is out of toilet again
what is light beating ?
and wise is better than disguised on, oh disguised one
How to beat your wife properislamic way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do
lota in toilet
here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJxECLi1jZo
lota
also check this out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPqD_2RX-V4
plenty more if you are willing to revert to Islam
@JanuJerman Khan
I asked for your opinion on wife beating in islam as the third option as mentioned in al nisa 4:34. Instead of general propaganda can you just answer if it is ok to give your wife a light beating?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY
@januJerman khan
What can muslims do for man kind?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMK3dC-eIrQ&feature=related
lota in the toilet
here is social system of islam, just intro but you can continue to go on the read the book on Caliphat’s social system
http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/social-system/387-an-introduction-to-the-social-system
you will have rights as zhimmi in Khilafat and will not be abused
you would be allowed to eat pork and drink alcohol as long as you don’t disguise 
@lota6177
Your concepts are insane, wife beating is not allowed in Islam as a breakfast item for women .. it is only when if they do not follow certain terms and condition, still it is not advised as first step .. it is the last of the step. Still it has certain restrictions, no bruise, no injure should occured to woman.In context it is nothing more that a little bash or a slap on the shoulder to the woman. Guys like you make it mockery out of it without understanding a little about it.
First read the Quran and Muhammad PBUH Hadish then post video of so called scholars from youtube… do remind you similar things others can easily find and post for many other religions… what about hindus, Satti? did you made any comments about it any time?
you are referring to Qur’an, but first you have tell if you believe in Quran & Hadith ? ??
what is the point if you don’t believe in qur’an & Allah swt ?
lotay
you ask other people for their opinions while you hide and disguise yourself, why don’t you tell your opinions? Little scared to get exposed
@supercreature
Your concepts are insane, wife beating is not allowed in Islam as a breakfast item for women .. it is only when if they do not follow certain terms and condition, still it is not advised as first step .. it is the last of the step. Still it has certain restrictions, no bruise, no injure should occured to woman.In context it is nothing more that a little bash or a slap on the shoulder to the woman. Guys like you make it mockery out of it without understanding a little about it.
Thank you for admitting that wife beating is allowed in islam as a last step under certain circumstances and should follow certain terms and conditions. That speaks volumes on its own and needs no further comment. A little bash or a slap on the shoulder to the woman.
@Janujerman Khan
My views are in what muslims can do for mankind. It is a few posts up in case you missed it.
Lotay Aqal Motay:Don’t twist & manipulate the simple & straight matter & kindly try to understand the same with good intention.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dr+zakir+naik+Wife+beating&search_type=&aq=f
@JanuGerman Khan
Dear friend,
I did not ask you about your belief because I think that every person’s belief is his/her own private matter. I simply asked you the date when you accepted Islam as your religion. It irritated you so much that you became aggressive. I knew that you had no answer to the question.
There was no need to be angry. It is better to be tolerant than to become aggressive on such a petty query and say,”how dare you ask . . . ” etc. etc.
I am sorry if you think that I hurt your feeling.
bebus
lota goes and you come, you come and lota goes…
don’t be sorry, you haven’t hurt my feelings. you ask muslims about their deen & belief while you hide yours. so why don’t you go first this time? what date you rejected islam as your religion and why?