Share and discuss latest Pakistani Political News and Views here. Feel free to include links to interesting videos, columns, and articles from mass media channels, newspapers or blogs. Always pretext a link with some explanation about the content of a link.
As all the members know every 2nd Talk Show is Opening Horrible & Unbelievable Past Misdeeds of Pak Army Generals, Kindly Post the videos which are similar as per followed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iywYiLdscEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEK1WpiUqs&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX4yG8uQnf0&feature=channel_page
U.S. Recruit Reveals How Qaeda Trains Foreigners http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/nyregion/24terror.html?hp
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جو توہمات سے پر اور عقیدے سے خالی ہو!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جو وہ زیبِ تن کرتی ہو جو اس نے نہیں بنا، وہ کھاتی ہو جو اس نے نہیں بویا، وہ شراب پیتی ہو جو کسی اور نے کشید کی!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جو غنڈے کو ہیرو سمجھےاور فاتح کو بھر بھر جھولی درازی عمر کی دعا دے!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جو نیند میں بہادر اور جاگتے میں بزدل ہو!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جس کی صدا سوائے جلوسِ جنازہ کبھی بلند نہ ہو، سوائے زیرِ شمشیر کبھی گردن نہ اٹھے!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت ہر جس کا مدبر لومڑ اور فلسفی مداری ہو اور ہنر ان کا صرف لیپا پوتی اور نقالی ہو!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جو نقارہ بجا کر نئے حاکم کا استقبال کرے اور آوازے کس کے رخصت کرے اور پھر نقارہ بجائے اگلے حاکم کے لیے!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جس کے دانشمند گزرتے وقت کے ساتھ بہرے ہوتے چلے جائیں، جس کے قوی اب تک گہوارے میں ہوں!
ترس کھا ایسی ملت پر جو ٹکڑے ٹکڑے ہو جائے اور ہر ٹکڑا خود کو ملت جانے۔۔۔۔۔۔۔
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/urdu/2009/07/post_477.html
Lotay:
Taras Khao aur Na Pahro Sirf apni Wishful Thinking Kay Mutabiq
Taras kha Pakistanioun pur – Deikho Kabhi Dr.SM Ka Meray Mutabiq.
http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/polls/
http://pkpolitics.com/category/media/meray-mutabiq/
Lotay:
Eik aur Shahkar Ghota Laga Kar Liya Hoon
Aur Aapki Aqal Pur Matam Kurna Shroo Kurta Hoon.
http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/2009/07/americans-pessimistic-about-afghanistan-war.html
Jokes About Zardari
::Robber: “Give me all your money.”
Zardari: “Don’t you know who I am? I am Asif Ali Zardari.”
Robber: “OK. Well give me all my money!.”
:: To commemorate the ascension to the Presidency, Pakistan Post has officially launched a new stamp. But the people ok Pakistan are confused about which side to spit on.
:: Terrrorists have kidnapped our beloved Zardari and are demanding $5,000,000 or they will burn him with petrol. Please donate what you can. I have given five litres.
@mbokhari
Now I stand seconded by a sensible person (zia m) and hopefully you will take heed. Please stop wasting your time and talent and start writing for serious print publications.
dua goh
yea, before writing for serious print publications do ponder upon counter arguments given in week-3-july to improve your theories…
Pasand Apni Apni — Sense & Sensibility ka hai Jis ko Intizar
Hamari Nazar Saay Jou Dekho Tou Nazar Aata hai Zehni-Beemar.
jal gaya, burnol lagaaiyae
kiRay ney kata, burnol lagaaiyae
tamaam dawaaNeN bachoN ki pauhaunch sey door rakheN
ترس کھا ایسی ملت ہر جس کا مدبر لومڑ اور فلسفی مداری ہو اور ہنر ان کا صرف لیپا پوتی اور نقالی ہو
thanks to Allah there are many to dissect those flawed and borrowed arguments with rational and reason, try coming up with something of your own. Don’t worry let us see what your thoughts are -if any- burnol user
Deikhna Yeh Hai Kaay Mansoori Ka Kata Pani Hai Mangta
Yah Fazool See Bakwasiat Mein Apna aur Doosroun Ka Waqt Barbad Kurta.
ترس کھا ایسی ملت ہر جس کا مدبر لومڑ اور فلسفی مداری ہو اور ہنر ان کا صرف لیپا پوتی اور نقالی ہو
—————————————————————
واه! كيا خوب كها خليل جبران نے!
گو هم كو مصره بهت پسند ايا
گرچه هم پر هي كيوں نه كسا گيا
مياں گر تم بات يهيں چهوڑ ديتے
تو كيا بات تهي
گر تم بعد اس كے بيوكوفياں نامارتے
تو كيا لاج تهي
مگر بات اپني كرنا اپ كو ضروري تها
اس فورم په رسوا هونا اپ كو ضروري تها
@zia m
I dont think we were discussing Taliban created crisis , I wasnt.
You took my comment out of context. Let me try again, you mentioned a few reasons for decline of Muslim society and then presented a solution of separation of religion from state, and my comment above getting rid of religion was in that context I didnt blame you of getting rid of the religion altogether , I was referring to you suggestion of getting rid of religion in matters of state and community etc. So I didnt twist anything.
There is fundamental difference in our view points, your emphasis has been on religion and its effects on decline of Muslim society , my point of view is that tis is yet another example of tunnel vision and oversimplification of a complex issue. And by taking that line I dont want to create a space for Taliban and JI to come fwd and claim the ownership of religion and then do whatever that want to do in the name of religion. Your ideas of effects of religion on personal and human liberties are after all just your ideas , similarly my point of view is just my point of view and we cant convince each other. You struggle for your cause I will for mine
gul,
lol
what a weightless piece of prose that trickled out of your mind, stop wasting our time with this.
خاتون و حضرات آپ اگر نثر پر اکتفا کریں تو یہ نہ صرف آپ کا ہم سب پر احسان ہو گا بلکہ اردو زبان بھی آپ کا یہ احسان ہمیشہ یاد رکھے گی . نہ سر نہ پیر ، نہ قافیہ نہ ردیف ، نہ وزن نہ خیالات کی رنگینی اور پرکاری الله جانے آپ کر کیا رہے ہیں
by the way Gul, don’t flatter yourself by taking Khalil Jibran’s refernce of intellectual/philosopher on you as it wasn’t meant for you.
your assumption was flawed
Good Try. This is so true for our society in Pakistan but the dream never seems to come to reality as every new Poet/Suqrat/Buqrat/intellectual whatsoever so called at this Site is much more an Impostor than his predecessors.
@ (you know who you are…lol)
Sing along to “My Funny Valentine” by Sinatra
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4tatz_my-funny-valentine_music
My funny shoeshine
Thinking yourself Einstein
Your copy pasting is asinine
You plagiarizing canine
You make me smile with my heart
Your grammar is laughable
Totally In-comp-arable
I laugh before I start
to read your works of art
Like a poodle you squeak
When you open your beak
And try to speak
I think your IQ is a little weak
Are you smaaaart?
But don’t get up from the stairs for me
Not if you care for me
Or use your paws to make a sign
You dumb and amusing canine
Selling old Khilafah wine
Copy pasting, every line
Must be a manufacturing defect
And you are defective by design
But…
don’t climb the stairs with me
The pet house, its under the tree
Stay there if you are scared of me
My asinine swine, show me how you sit…
“Stay!”
Sweet, comic canine, show me how you…
“Play!”
this guy had to produce cheeky work of art to show how much these ideas wondered around his head!
got all of his philosophy, theory and poetry but couldn’t get his basic aqiedah right, wants to keep his little toy god in pocket as a coefficient of some unknown variable
calling himself professor, mr. mental bokhari, seems he has hit last decade with legs in grave but not willing to revisit his basic ideas
started off with borrowed logical question on god & fate but when challenged with counter ideas he felt humiliated
initially denied in rash but then the thoughts made him run back to his good friend google and dig out the source to read and understand
now he wants to ridicule, belittle with stupid prose but not willing to answer genuine questions, he rather want to wait for fresh thread to wash the memory away, but mental bokhari you still got chance
try going over your aqeida again and take out your little god out of wallet and see how that fits in this universe
@Adhanan Arshad Manzoori
Dear friend
You said: (on 24 July 12:57 PM)
…..Deikhna Yeh Hai Kaay Mansoori Ka Kata Pani Hai Mangta…..
I say, abtak tou siraf ……… hee thay, abb katna bhi shuroo kar diya hai (jaisa keh aapne khood admit kiya)
Dekha AAEEN, BAEEEN, SHAEEEEN ka kia nuqsan hota hai ?
@bhola
I liked your balanced and reconciling comment of 24th July 2:26 PM. However, I get convinced by the views of “zia m”.
How lucky you are! “No Brain” “No Tension.”
As do not have with Islamic world No Connection.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTBSUPM_3U
How Do I Play at own Monitor with self made Cashes Clay
About whom you insult or offend – you just think it’s funny
Tell to others the false stories as this all happened today?
Have you forgotten Khatri shastri, pjamistry, or the Easter Bunny
You claimed lastly increasing cheering crowd
“Three cheers for the Giant! “your noise it was loud
For the Giant, assumed yourself hero, but you were so proud
As zehnibeemar was explaining, as claimed himself Giant appeared
The poor lad was making excuses to go a sight to be feared
You won’t have any more mental problem, Zehni-beemaR
I’ll sort you out, over in the corner oh yes, good and proper
Baqi Thora Waqfay Kay Baad.
Bay Buss You have nothing to with it, besides this is an established Urdu Idiom which is quiet recognized by all the URDU Language Authority Holders.
I could not understand your own unnecessary interference which may be too Heavy to be bear also later on.
يه تو هم جانتے هي تهے كه جبران هماري بات نهيں كر رهے
كيوں اتنا هنساتے هيں اپ
هم تو سمجهے تهے اپ نے هم كولومڑ سے تشبيح دي
كيا اپ واكعي هميں لومڑ نهيں بلا رهے تهے؟
چليے بهت اچهاهوا جو اپ نے وضاهت كي
اپ نے تو هم سے بات هي نه كي
اور هم يوں هي اپ سے متوجه هوے
جان كي امان، اپ روٹهے هم چهوٹے
خير، غسه تهوكيے اور چهوڑيے ان باتوں كو
صرف ضروري بات يه هے كه
كسي دن پروز اور ورس كے تفرك پر تهكيك ضرور كيجيے گا
We can all agree on relative decline of Islamic word over past 800 years.We can’t deny Muslims once led the world in science.I believe the rigid adherence to doctrine is one of the major contributor to this decline.This is having a devastating effect on our economic,social and democratic development.This has considerably intensified in recent years.
We can’t ignore the external factors for example,the implementation of Judaic concept of “promised land” in the creation of Jewish state inflaming the Muslim society.India’s unwillingness to resolve the Kashmir issue and American invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.
But i think 80% of our problems are internal.
We seriously need to think about our own shortcomings i have a list of areas we need to focus on.Would like others to add/delete or refine these rough ideas.
1.SCIENCE. We need to put more emphasis on science and start teaching it a verly age.Science is based on reason it will help avoiding fooling ourselves.In addition to its economic benefits it shows us reality.
2.TOlERANCE. We are lacking tolerance in our society.We should expose our children to other religions along with Islam for a better understanding of the world.
3.EDUCATION. We need to double our budget on education.
4.MEDIA. We have a vibrant media lots of tv channels.But they rarely focus on science and natural history.Should create a science channel.
5.LAND REFORMS. We need land reforms to reduce the gap between rich and poor.Agriculture tax should help pay for education.
6.HEALTH REFORMS. Provide health care to all citizens.Funds for this should be raised by higher taxes on luxury goods.
7.COMMUNITY SERVICE. We should open community centers in mosques and teach ulema to serve the community.
8.NATIONAL IDENTITY. We consider ourselves first muslims then punjabi,balochi,sindhi or pashtun Pakistani comes last.We can atleast be Pakistanis second to our religion.
9.ROLE OF WOMEN. We need to give women equal rights.We can’t afford to deprive ourselves from 50% of work force.
10.BASIC INDUSTRY. We need to curb imports and encourage basic manufacuring in our own country.
Enough of my rant!
……TOlERANCE. We are lacking tolerance in our society………..
Leave all dry Philosophical Debate, enjoy with the following:
This Child is the Ustad of Bay Buss in Stubbornness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nojWJ6-XmeQ&feature=related
By the way you all do not know the history of Bay Buss.
@Adhanan Arshad Manzoori
Dear Friend
You yourself said that,” …..Deikhna Yeh Hai Kaay Mansoori Ka Kata Pani Hai Mangta…..”
What was the need to become so angry and start AAEEN, BAEEEN, SHAEEEEN. Aap to aapay say bahir hote ja rahe hain, Allah aap par apna Reham aata karay. Ameen.
Aur haan, dhamkian bhi day rahay ho(which exposes your terrorist mind). Yeh sab record per aa gaya hai. Laikin yeh mat bhoolo keh JO GARAJTAY HAIN, BARASTAY NAHEEN.
Zia M
Regarding
sorry
Islam and Industrial development
VIP (Shabaz Sharif’s son ) allowed to import Siberian tigers in violation of ban
a href=”http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/14-the-deal-that-wasnt-zj-01″>
Govt failed to secure Nuclear technogy from France
@janujerman khan,
I am refering to Islamic Golden Age that lasted for about 400 years.It reached its apex during Abbasid rule.Al-Mamun belived in “The ink of a scholar is holier than the blood of martyr” He was much more tolerant than the Ghaznavids who were from Ghazni Afghanistan and were more fundamentalists like present day Taliban.
Fundamentalism was one of the reasons I already mentioned other reasons like Mongol invasion and role of Al-Ghazali (who was traditionalist) in my previous post.
Similarly in the west (Al-Andulas) Almoravid rulers were very tolerant.Lot of Jews migrated to Muslim land to escape persecution from Christians.But when Almohads came into power they started persecuting non Muslims.
All this makes me think fundamentalism was one of the reasons and presently we are encountering its worst form…..Taliban.
zia m
but your reference to few periods of history doesn’t prove that adherence to Islam was causing decline.
what was status of adherence to Islam in initial 400 years?
what are these terms fundamentalist, tolerant, and traditionalist? ? How do you decide who belongs to which term?
janujerman khan,
I don’t want to argue with you.I used to be a wahabi I know how it feels.You are entitled to your opinion.
@zia m:
Where do you read in the doctrine that muslims should not do science, they must not educate their generations? or where does it tell that muslims should be intolerant, should not build industry? or it is a sin to provide community service, health reforms, or land reforms? So did the doctrine prohibit all these things that you proposed as the remedy, and thus the muslims ended up in this state of decline?
How rigidly do you think the indian muslims were adhering to the message of islam during the Moghal rule, due to which their downfall started? Was it really the Taliban like guys stopping Akbar, Shahjahan, Jehangir, and all the way up to Zafar from promoting/doing science? or trade? or welfare? Was it the rigid adherence to the doctrine or in fact the opposite that your favorite Mirza Ghalib’s “Shah” and his courtiers, including Mirza himself, remained drunk watching dances… and nurturing a division of musicians…. so that in a similar situation, their enemies would eventually turn the indian cities upside down? And how did uncle Ghalib’s poetry uplifted the nation, made it progress by leaps and bounds? or it rather gave more fuel to the fire, so much that the kings attempted poetry themselves rather than running the state affairs.
It is probably going to be helpful if you enlighten us about the appropriate level of adherence to the doctrine. You certainly find *rigid adherence* to be the source of all the problems, so what do you recommend as a good level, while still living as muslims?
But then the issue is you are confused. At one hand, you diagnose the problem to be rigid adherence to the doctrine, and then on the other, you suggest steps like doing science, commerce and welfare of the masses which are not banned in Islam at all. If the muslims rulers in the last eight decades ignored these sectors because of their “love of women and wine (and music)”, and desire to keep power within their family, it does not mean the doctrine guided them. At one hand, you have utmost respect for Iqbal and appreciate him for reviving the thought process, but then you do not care to read his diagnosis of the situation, an example given below:
وہ زمانے میں معزز تھے مسلمان ہو کر
اور تم خوار ہو تارک قرآن ہو کر
Science, commerce, welfare and women rights come in a nation/country which rules itself. A nation which is free, is not enslaved, and has an identity. But here we have (right in the parliament, the government offices, right on these blogs, this forum) people who love drone-attacks! people who think it is legitimate to roast human bodies in the red mosque, rather than adopting any other way to bring them to the court! rather they think it was perfectly fine to shut up the court and lock its judges! people who love Musharaf!! people who think Afia Siddiqi deserves this treatment!!… i mean … !!!! people who think we can hand over as many people as the US wants or even more for some dollars! and what if the UK is the second home of all of our state-criminals, as if UK was their grandma’, but we must not ask her why it protects our criminals!
Taking a positive look into your mind, you basically do not agree with someone who says Islam wants people to stay inside the mosque all the time, do not learn any worldly knowledge, do not do science etc. And you are absolutely RIGHT! … but that person is not telling you islam, he has only got some rituals, not the message. The doctrine of islam was in the best hands during the time of the prophet (SAWS) and some of his followers at that time were successful, examplary traders and business/commerce men. The magnitude of positive transition in women rights during his life-time is unmatched in the history, in that so much of the rights and respect of women achieved over a certain time period. The doctrine of islam bounds the state to provide welfare and cater for all of its citizens. The most of all, the doctrine gave the principles of justice and human equality. I agree that such groups exist, have existed, in the Islamic world and they turn you off, and very rightly so! But they do not represent the doctrine, however, which you find problematic.
It is a universal phenomenon that you find a subset of people within every community, every profession, every religion which takes its own interpretation of things, forms practices and beliefs that do not represent the central part of the main group. There can be more than one such sub-sets. And there might be different political/geographical/social reasons. Name any community which does not have it. Jews have it, hindus have it, even the atheists comes in different categories, coining new names. In professions, there are doctors who are involved in the organ-theft and drug-traffic, there are policemen who run torture cells and robbery groups, ministers and governors who run the under-world, and presidents who sell their own citizens. We cannot give a verdict about a constitution by just looking at the practices of the few, or even a majority, because technically, even if the whole country is violating a certain clause of it, it still does not mean the constitution is bad. If we want to analyze Islam or its doctrine, we should focus on its principles, not the personalities around it —- which we can pick and choose from history, depending on our state of the heart/mind.
zia m
you can opt to not answer and i wouldn’t mind but it is not about feelings, it is more about thought process.
you categorized some historical periods according to terminologies, and I wanted to know the definition of those terms and criteria
Muhammad ibn Abd Al-Wahhab was an Islamic scholar, I have respect for him, but I am not his follower
@fmk
I honestly believe Taliban are following the strict doctrine,they are students of Al-Zawahiri.
He has much more knowledge of Quran than either of us.Please direct all your questions to them.They believe 90% of Pakistanis are mushrik.They want to enforce true Islam.
Who gives you the right to declare them fringe elements?
Pakistan was founded by Jinnah who was a secular.I don’t have any problem following his ideology.
I don’t believe in any religion,just a Supreme Being is enough for me.
Judaism is simply the history of jewish people that evolved into religion.Historicaly first monotheistic religion was invented by Pharoah Akhenaten.It is quite possible Moses who was an Egyptian prince borrowed the idea from him.
I suggest you read 5 books of Moses to get a better perspective on religion.Ever wondered how the followers of one Book Quran ended up with so many sects.Islam was a revolutionary religion for 7th century Arabia.
Like i said before everybody is entitled to believe whatever they like.I truly don’t want to see Taliban regime in Pakistan.
Another Slap with full force on the face of WEST with Five Figures Obvious Marks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/world/2009/07/090724_ahmadinajad_accepts.shtml
zia m……………Like i said before everybody is entitled to believe whatever they like.I truly don’t want to see Taliban regime in Pakistan.===xxxxx===
Astonishing — As per ISPR confirmation, there are 30 factions of Taliban/Alqaida 8 are prominent & rest of 22 are in pocket size, with whom do you want to Negotiate?
@zia m
You prove them fringe elements, my point, yourself by saying that 90% of Pakistanis are not following their version of islam. And that can be extended to the rest of the world with even a higher percentage, where approx. a billion muslims live in. And we also have to look over the centuries if this was Islam that people lived; where was this type of Islam a few decades ago? At every point in time, the world presents a particular political/geographical scenario and things have to be taken in the right context. By saying that Hitler killed so many jews, we can’t call it a problem with christianity; or the US bombing of Japan can’t be read as a problem with the belief of the American public.
No, there are tens of actions which speak clearly that these guys do not know Quran better than even a school teacher, let alone any scholar. You are going very unscientific/irrational by making this deduction.
If 90% Pakistanis don’t agree with Taliban, the taliban are not a threat. Any minority can never rule the majority. We should not make mistakes under this baseless fear.
It is a great great blessing that you believe in the Supreme Being, because that is indeed “the truth” — the Haq, as His name says it. All the rest is only for better knowing Him and our relationship with Him. Man, you are way ahead of me! Please keep me in your good wishes. Thanks.
@zia m
I get impressed by your comments and find it fair, logical, unbiased and convincing.
Listen & Watch the Sweetest Melody/Music of Ms. Shumaila Rana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VKq5dL9ZkE
I had predicted well before time as & when Khawaja Saad Rafique before Javaid Ch. was too insisted to listen the Music of his party Member of Provincial/National Assembly whether his name is Haji Pervaiz or Ms. Shumaila Rana any how & any manner poor Pakistani Nation is bound to listen the Music of Politician.
http://pkpolitics.com/2009/07/13/kal-tak-13-july-2009/#comment-234837
Thanks for the advice
@bebus,
That is very kind of you.Thanks!
zia m,
if you don’t mind, but just as you assumed wahabi for me, I assume you are either doing phd in theoretical science or have already done so?
@janujerman khan,
I think you are very close to a wahabi on a scale of 1-10, i guess 8 or 9.
I’m just a poor B.Sc
zia m,
thanks, but then i got to tell you, when a person gets one answer wrong he is getting two wrong
cheers
@janujerman khan,
All of us are allowed to be wrong.
@JanuJerman Khan
I am very proud to announce that we are fortunate to have intelligent Muslims like you who believe in the khiafat movement. I admire your commitment and I have observed your use of the khilafat website to win many great arguments. You are a ray of light, smart, intelligent and future of khilafat movement. Good job and keep up the good work. When in trouble consult the khilafat website.
janujerman khan is always right and has better powerful arguments. He is very intellgent guy.
thanks, but then i got to tell you, when a person gets one answer wrong he is getting two wrong
Super philosophy, winner argument and great success.
thanks to Allah -alhamdulilah- for the help cracking that mental bokhari guy
thanks to fmk whose powerful dissection helped me see the fine cracks & fallacies in his views
@janujerman khan,
Does your Allah have anything better to do?
@janujerman khan
I want to gain knowledge like you. Can you guide me what are any good books to read so I can be highly educated like you?
yea
try reading “a peace to end all peace” by david fromkin
baitullahmehsud aren’t you mbokhari
instead of trying by changing name, try changing your thoughts
@Janu NaFarman Dilbarjan
Ugh…He is not me and I am not him.
You insist on not using your brain
Like a lot of my students, you think its a trick question if someone asks you to use your brain.
Its not a trick question. You should try using it sometime. But anyway, I understand your dilemma and sympathize with you. Its not your fault. If a Fiji cannibal ever cracked your head open, he’d be really sad to discover not enough to spread over a slice of toast. The question is, why?
I submit my theorem that the mass of gray matter in your brain approaches zero as the derivative of Khilafa converges over the complex plane in n-space. You, essentially, are an irrational partial integral that was mistakenly diverged into the stream of life. I blame the doctors for allowing you to exceed the boundary limits. They should have used the Gaussian forceps to abort your eigenvectors and perform a Fast Fourier Transform on your polynomials.
In other words, if the Runge-Kutta method had been used when you were an infant, you wouldn’t be here insulting logic and offending the gods of mathematics.
Euler Akbar!
And stop sending me emails, you failure
- Prof. mbokhari
thanks for confirming your e-mail address, so i did reach the right man
sir, you are 60+ and deserve respect for your age.
be careful of what you write due to high network monitoring in the region where you are, or else mukhabrate may give you a surprised visit
i am surprised to see a PhD professor messing around wasting his time like this with people who are less than half his age
perhaps low course load for this semester?
***correction*** associate professor to be precise
if Benazir was alive, i could still be the president–Musharaf
Musharaf should not hide behind Benazir`s name & pictures–Farhat Baber ( this right reserved for Zardari only )
another mpa claiming that 50,000 rupees stolen from her purse while punjab assembly was in session. Punjab assembly or chooron ki assembly?
@ Mohammad K. Malik “Punjab assembly or chooron ki assembly?”
Are you surprised to read this news? Choors are present in all provincial assemblies, national assemblies, senate, prime minister house, civil, private, public and military departments and biggest choor is sitting in president house as a president of Pakistan. If you do not mind let me say we are choor as a nation.
@mbokhari
hahahha
re your feathry friend, is it the general environmnet, your words or my frame 0f mind…..not sure, but it really doesn’t matter….the fitting response was hilarious….
@Gul
lol.
He reminds me of a student I knew whose mind was unformed, just like his (perhaps it was his father). These were the Ayub days and I was still young. (didn’t need Kala Kola then). He would come late to the class from his village riding a donkey cart and would always try to cheat on his tests.
Well, I was the Master jee and I would lay down a righteous littrole with Dr. Mola Bakhsh (my trusty baton). Little Feeka would cry and whimper like a lost puppy and promise never to do it again. It went on for a while till he failed his matric exams for the 4th time. I felt sorry for him so I told him to eat 7 badaams on the 7th night of Ramadan during the 7th taraweeh within 7 seconds. I heard later from the doctors that he chocked and they took him to the hospital. They say he was clinically dead for 7 minutes because the oxygen supply to his brain had been held up by the 8th badaam (he even cheated on the badaams).
Anyway, to cut this shaggy dog story short, his comatose condition was certainly an improvement on his intellectual life. He runs a rehRi now in Pindi and has a mentally disabled son he has to severly beat to keep him off the internet. (janu? is it you?)
I recommend a similar treatment for Dear @JheengarKhan, where an induced coma will really benefit his thought processes
Failing that, a righteous litterole should do wonders.
@zia m
“I honestly believe Taliban are following the strict doctrine,they are students of Al-Zawahiri.
He has much more knowledge of Quran than either of us”
There are many reason why Islam has failed Muslims.
One reason is by suppressing its women.
Islam took the legend of Adam and Eve from the Old Testament and adapted it in its own fashion. The creation of mankind from one person is mentioned in the following suras:
4.1. 0 Mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multiple of men and women.
39.6. He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate.
7.189. He it is who did create you from a single soul and therefrom did make his mate that he might take rest in her.
From these Quranic sources Muslim theologians have concluded that man was the original creation – womankind was created secondarily for the pleasure and repose of man.
Let us see what the Quran says about women. It says
“men have a degree (of advantage) over them” 2:228 ; that the witness of woman is worth half of that of man 2:282; that women inherit half of their male siblings, 4:11-12; that a man can marry two or three or four women 4:3; that if a women becomes captive in a war, her Muslim master is allowed to rape her 33:50; that if a woman is not totally submissive to her husband she will enter Hell 66:10; that women are “tilth” for their husbands (to cultivate them) 2:223; that men are in charge of women, as if women were imbeciles or minors who could not take care of themselves; that they must be obedient to their husbands or be admonished (verbally abused), banished from the bed (psychologically abused) and beaten (physically abused) 4:34.
These verses define the station of women in Islam
Equally, in numerous hadiths on which are based the Islamic laws, we learn of the woman’s role – to stay at home, to be at the beck and call of man to obey him (which is a religious duty), and to assure man a tranquil existence. Here are some examples of these traditions: \
• The woman who dies and with whom the husband is satisfied will go to paradise.
• A wife should never refuse herself to her husband even if it is on the saddle of a camel.
• Hellfire appeared to me in a dream and I noticed that it was above all peopled with women who had been ungrateful. “Was it toward God that they were ungrateful?” They had not shown any gratitude toward their husbands for all they had received from them. Even when all your life you have showered a woman with your largesse she will still find something petty to reproach you with one day, saying, “You have never done anything for me.”
Here are the golden words written by our famous Ghazali.
In his “The Revival Of The Religious Sciences,” He defines the woman’s role.
She should stay at home and get on with her spinning, she should not go out often, she must not be well-informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbours and only visit them when absolutely necessary; she should take care of her husband and respect him in his presence and his absence and seek to satisfy him in everything; she must not cheat on him nor extort money from him; she must not leave her house without his permission and if given his permission she must leave surreptitiously. She should put on old clothes and take deserted streets and alleys, avoid markets, and make sure that a stranger does not hear her voice or recognize her; she must not speak to a friend of her husband even in need. … Her sole worry should be her virtue, her home as well as her prayers and her fast. If a friend of her husband calls when the latter is absent she must not open the door nor reply to him in order to safeguard her and her husband’s honour. She should accept what her husband gives her as sufficient sexual needs at any moment. … She should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband’s sexual needs at any moment.
Muslim jurists are unanimous in their view that men are superior to women in virtue of their reasoning abilities, their knowledge, and their supervisory powers. And since it is the man who assumes financial responsibility for the family, it is argued, it is natural that he should have total power over the woman. These same jurists, of course, totally neglect changing social conditions where a woman may contribute her salary to the upkeep of her family.Power over women remains a divine command and “natural” or “in the nature of things.” Muslim thinkers continue to confine Muslim women to the house , to leave the house is against the will of God and against the principles of Islam. Confined to their houses, women are then reproached for not having any experience of the outside world.
@peterpan,
You are right.All religions are equally guilty of subjugation of women.Our apologists will tell us that Islam gave more rights to women as compared to pre Islamic Arabia.They do have some weight in their argument.Muslims had a great tradition of ijtehad that was abolished in favour of more literal meaning of the verses.This has lead to stagnation of our society.
Christians have similar verses in their scriptures as you have pointed out but they have totally disregarded them.I think western nations have gone too far resulting in signs of decay in the society.We need to find a middle way ensuring equal rights for women.For this we need to revive ijtehad.It is not possible as long the ulema are sleeping at the wheel.
This takes us to what mbokhari said “we need creative thinkers”.
mental bokhari
you do have a habit of taking other people’s work and give it spin and twist and present it as your own, like you have done previously but last time you gave link to original source
but this time you took another story and just gave a little spin and some more spices to suite your taste
i wouldn’t indulge in insulting, i rather let people see your character.
i found very good hadiths that can help you and me prepare for the questions in grave. after all we all are going to die sooner or later
rerhi/raksha driver dying a death of muslim is better than a mathematician who couldn’t find answer to his most basic question
what was before life
what is after life
what is the relationship of before/after life with me
Three questions in the grave
looking forward to answers from last week’s writings
@Zia m
You are right in your reasoning that we need “Ijtehad” to adapt to modern world but Are you not asking for too much from “Mulla”. (I dont call them molvi or maulana coz they are not). Think of it, they are below average in IQ. They dont even have a well -rounded knowledge of Islam, Islamic History, Arabic Language, Arabic Traditions, Islamic Law, etc They just have a tunnel vision of their own version of Islam. They still entrenched in their 17th century lifestyle and world has moved on. Even parents in our society choose “madrassah” for their less intelligent (aka retarded) children. Our brilliant and Intelligent minds stay away from Islam and related subjects. We dont believe in research (actually in any subject). We dont believe in struggle to find the truth. How can you expect from such a nation to take the path of “Ijtehad”?
Look at the other theocracy in the world- Israel. Their leaders have an objective. They have a dead language hebrew revived atleast in their country. Look at their contribution to the world of science (social sciences and physical science). Pick any research journal and you will find reference to Israel’s research. Look at their lifestyle and compare with ours.
8 provincial minister’s supporters booked for Gojra aerial firing
The local police have registered a case against eight persons here, followed by an incident of clash and aerial firing between the supporters of Provincial Revenue Minister, Haji Ishaque and the police.
SHO City, Bahar Hussain has registered a case against the three nominated and five unidentified persons in the city police station, followed by an incident of clash and aerial firings between the supporters of provincial minister and the police on the occasion of the inauguration of a road by Provincial Revenue Minister, Haji Muhammad Ishaque.
Link: http://geo.tv/7-26-2009/46550.htm
———————————————————
Are these people from the friendly opposition party, PML-N?
@Najam Syed
On this forum, I had been reading that “we need creative thinkers”, with which I agree. Yet I don’t see much of such species here. This is most unfortunate for we Muslims and that is the reason that Muslims all over the world are in the state of all sorts of Dilemma. We are marred by “LAKEER KAY FAQEER” type thinkers, abundantly found on this forum. As such I am extremely disappointed about the future of Muslims. Having said that, I do see a very thin ray of hope as well, when I read comments like yours and a few more here.
@bebus
most unfortunate is the fact that 99% of nation donot want to realize the gravity of situation and remaining 1% only chat about it. no one is actually “doing” something to change the fate of nearly 1 billion muslims. We are justing waiting for a saviour!!!
why not share the solution, if any of you got any?
@JJK
There are 101 solutions. actually just look around, you will find different nations/civilizations in different stages of their development process. There can be different routes but goals are very much similar. We dont have any goal. atleast at the government level. Individuals can do only this much, its the collective power of socity that brings about changes. And we as a nation dont want to do anything…
Najam Syed,
i see like progressing nations we also have capitalist/democratic system. I mean the rulers, leaders, people with authority are implementing western capitalist/democratic system on masses.
so where we got wrong?
“THE STRUGGLE FOR ISLAM AND THE CALL FOR KHILAFAH”
WATHC KHILAFAH CONERENCE LIVE today, sunday, at 11:45pm
http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/
Regards
@JJK
do you see the nation doing soul searching and analysing the reason for failures???
yar revivalist… khilafat is not solution and what khilafat??? some mulla sitting on zardari’s throne… nopes… i m not buying that
NS,
not sure what you meant by “the nation”, but generally i don’t see souls searching & reasons for failures.
Thar coal Reserves
If All The Oil Reserves of Saudia Arab & Iran Put Together
These Are Approximately 375 Billion Barrels,
@zia m
“We need to find a middle way ensuring equal rights for women.For this we need to revive ijtehad.It is not possible as long the ulema are sleeping at the wheel.”
I myself hold similar views – that religions are essentially man made etc. and of the possibility of God being the creation of man rather than the other way around. But irrespective of whether one is agnostic or even certainly believes in a supreme being or not, a few here (like yourself, peterpan, mbokhari, myself etc) are agreed that religions at least are man made (my sincere apologies in advance if I have misattributed this belief to anyone), and if that is certainly an agreed point, then why look to ijtehad rather than rationalism and some form of absolute morality to modify/improve society? Why look to one religion (even if by comparison it seems the most progressive one in spirit) to start the struggle.
After all, what we find wrong in the scriptures, we find it faulty due to our already developed sense of rationalism, logic or morality (RLM). We have, to a degree, already decided what is wrong and what is right and of course I do not mean that evolution of these should stop because we already know everything. But what I mean is that at this point in time we have a fairly well developed sense of what direction our society should take and this sense is rooted in the already mentioned RLM.
Then is it any use for us to advocate waking the ‘ulema’ and then trying to, what’s that saying, bringing the horse to water and making it drink per our world view? Even if one were able to exhort them into a waking state, would one be able to make them drink?
Because of this, personally to me, advocating ijtehad would be the wrong starting point. But from one angle I can quite see the rationale behind this desire. For us few, it may be the wrong starting point for the mentioned reason, but for the rest of the muslim ummah the giant leap I would rather they make, could be a non starter. I don’t know. It might, or it might not.
@JJK
“you do have a habit of taking other people’s work and give it spin and twist and present it as your own, like you have done previously but last time you gave link to original source” ….. and so on and so forth.
I think what you said there is completely wrong. Reading other peoples’ work in philosophy, or reading history, or opinions for example is where one not only gains knowledge, but also evolves one’s own understanding etc.
Whenever I have read mbokhari’s posts, I have never once found him either plagiarising or spinning or twisting what someone else had said.
Through his posts I have found that he has read widely, and quotes generously, and will either be found in agreement with what he’s quoted or not. In other cases he bring together his knowledge of different events and periods in history seamlessly to form his own conclusions.
But to label this as spinning or presenting as his own is not only untruthful, but also foolish.
@Gul, re: JJK
Ignore the poor plagiarizing comic canine. He can’t help it. He tried to present al-Nabhani’s ideas as his own arguments without citing his source or acknowledging the original writer.
His lack of education would not matter so much if it weren’t for his lack of integrity in acknowledging that he was caught cheating. Lack of character is a manufacturing defect and JJK compounds that failing with acute one-liner verbal diarrhea.
People like that are to be pitied and/or ridiculed
@Gul
100% agrre with you
@zia m, Gul
Opponents of Platonic/Machiavellian political realism posit that those with Reason, Logic and Morality certainly have a stronger grasp on reality and the ailments of the body politic but they should be more honest and not tell convenient lies or bend over backwards to humor the religious hangovers of the unwashed masses. A little geneology of the idea: Plato thinks that people with RLM, the intelligentsia, the philosophers have the remedy. But the patient resists the panacea for reasons of religion or general donkeyness and he recommends a noble lie to keep them in line.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1497/1497-h/1497-h.htm#2H_4_0005
Plato goes on to describe social regimentation into castes of rulers, warriors etc (very similar to the Hindu caste system) and argues that a religious myth like that when taught to the populace would help to keep them loyal to the state. But he decries Hellenic rationalism which is anathema to royal lies like this:
Thanks be to Allah, Gaad, and all the baayes, our people are not threatened by logic
But Plato’s royal lie was a political one. How could a religio-political lie, like for example, “Islam is a complete way of life” or “Islam is Pakistan’s constitution” or “Parliament shall not make any laws contrary to Sharia” be told in the face of reality? The only way I think is to acknowledge these emotional ideas and try to work them into rational positions.
This is the Madrassa debate all over again regarding accomdation versus all-out reform. The great unwashed are unprepared for the unadulterated truth at a single dose. To prevent them OD’ing on the truth, their religious obsessions need to be humored. Perhaps a rationalist discourse within our Islamic framework could be rekindled through Ijtihad. Some think it is wrong to call for Ijtihad because that would take us on the slippery slope of religion. But it works both ways, and that’s precisely why the “Ulema” are afraid of the slippery slope of questioning, manaazra or debate. To them a frontal intellectual assault on their cherished dogma is divine help and to which they could respond by dispatching apes in suicide jackets. They are completely at a loss when faced with philosophy or science or the world of finance.
Personally, I think a Muslim Renaissance is nowhere in sight. But in any case, if it were to occur, it would have to take the road taken many times, the long treaded paths of convenient lies, bridigng over the gushing rivers of truth. Why? Because we are simply men, and not Übermenschen or Mard-e-Momin. We must lie and bring the horse to the water because we lack Iqbal’s Khudi.
The Lie shall set us free
Irving Kristol writes:
Nietzsche tried telling the people about the Intiqal pur Malal of the divine being and see where that took Germany. Now we are all happy that God has been resuscitated
I wanted all things
To seem to make some sense,
So we could all be happy, yes,
Instead of tense.
And I made up lies
So that they all fit nice,
And I made this sad world
A par-a-dise.
- Holy Prophet Bokonon in Vonnegut’s “Cat’s Cradle”
People (in Pakistan particularly) don’t even consider it wrong, I think, plagiarizing other’s work is stealing and according to ‘their shariat’ it should be punished as they punish thieves.
@dildar
If one steals with one’s hands, the noble Shariah calls for hand chopping. If one steals with one’s mind (or the vacuum within), what’s on the chopping block?
@JJK
In the light of Shariah Ahkaam, you have been found guilty of intellectual theft, and I am out looking for you with a large knife to implement the Hudood decreed by God. Kindly oblige with your location and a convenient time for appropriate implementation of Shariah.
Jazak Allah!
Dear All,
I like to share a beautiful hadith that I read today.
Reported from Abu Huraira in Mishkaah and Musnad Ahmad.
Once, a person was verbally abusing Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) while the Prophet (peace be upon him) was curiously watching with a smile. After taking much abuse quietly, Abu Bakr responded to a few of his comments. At this, the Prophet exhibited his disapproval, got up and left.
Abu Bakr caught up with the Prophet and wondered, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, he was abusing me and you remained sitting. When I responded to him, you disapproved and got up.’ The Messenger of Allaah responded,
‘There was an angel with you responding to him. When you responded to him, Satan took his place.’ He then said ..
‘O Abu Bakr, there are three solid truths:
If a person is wronged and he forbears it (without seeking revenge) just for the sake of Allaah almighty, Allaah will honour him and give him the upper hand with His help;
if a person opens a door of giving gifts for cementing relationships with relatives, Allaah will give him abundance;
and, if a person opens a door of seeking charity for himself to increase his wealth, Allaah will further reduce his wealth.’
SubhanAllah!
Dear All,
I like to share a beautiful hadith that I read today:
http://www.sunnah.org/sources/40haditheloquence/40haditheloquence7.htm
The above is narrated by al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, and al-Tirmidhi, who declared it sahih – the above is the latter’s wording – as mentioned in al-Targhib and elsewhere.
And on stealing:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/081.sbt.html#008.081.780
SubhanAllah!
@JJK
I leave it to the heirs of the al-Nabhani’s estate to try implementing Shariah on you. But since what you stole from al-Nabhani was worthless anyway (not worth a hundredth of a Dinar), I will sheath my large knife and let bygones be bygones.
A basic guide on avoiding plagiarism:
http://www.indiana.edu/~wts/pamphlets/plagiarism.shtml
Right After reading === Jazak Allah=== & ===Suban Allah=== but when finished the following Line:
………I will sheath my large knife and let bygones be bygones……..
Just Say: “Lahul e Walaquwat Illah Billah.”
Well after Faiz’s poem about Kuttay , this is the best I have ever read…. I am sure many people would like it , specially the following
کرگیا مرکے دنیا سے کنارا کتا
اور جیتا بھی تو کیا کرتا بیچارا کتا
دیکھا انساں کو لڑتے تو کہا کتے نے
بن کے آؤں گا دنیا میں دوبارہ کتا
اپنے مالک کا وفادار تو تھا پہلے بھی
اب تو اندھوں کو بھی دیتا ہے سہارا کتا
اہل زر تو نہیں ہم پھریں کاروں میں
روز سڑکوں پر ہی پھرتا ہے ہمارا کتا
چوکیداری کے جو لائق بھی نہیں تھا پہلے
بن کے حاکم وہ بیٹھا ہے آوارہ کتا
بعد شادی کے تو لگتا ہے زباں منہ میں نہیں
کس قدر شور مچاتا تھا کنوارا کتا
جن کی اولاد انہيں بوجھ سمجھ لیتی ہے
اپنی ماں باپ کی آنکھوں کا ہے تارا کتا
ایک کتے پہ بھلا اور میں کیا کیا لکھوں
کتا کتا ہے ہمارا یا تمہارا کتا
اب تو انسان ہی انساں کا لہو پیتا ہے
کیسے کر پائے گا اعجاز گزارا کتا
Ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/urdu/2009/07/post_479.html
Peace of Mind, a great blessing from Allah swt
The Ten Commandments of Hazrat Sultan-al Falasifa Shaykh Mawlana as-Sayyid Bertrand Arthur William al-Russell al-Inglisi al-Firdausi (r.a.):
http://www.corax.com/bookshelf/russell/decalogue.html
1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.
2. Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.
3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.
4. When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.
5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.
6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.
7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.
8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent that in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.
9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.
10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.
Janu Bhaiya Taza Kalam Kee Nouk Palak Sahih Kurdien – Agar Waqt Milay.
Jub Soo-arr Khaslat Numa Hoongay Hamray Hukumran – Tou Kiya Cheetah – Kiya Kutta
Aur Kheenzeer Saay Bhee Bhar Kur Hoongay Inkay JaanNisaran – Baqia Awam Ko Rona Purta
@dildar
Thank you.
@mbokhari
Same end, different approaches. With your post @ 4.16 p.m. you endorse the view I expressed as a doubt in the last para of my post @ 2.31 indeed.
All those philosophers side with you (or you with them) where the approach is concerned. I am sure, here too, our friend GoTK would take your side, if he were here. I’m not sure why, but I have a little less patience for humoring what I know to be illogical, and therefore am far more impatient, far more radical (not in ideas, but in approach).
Never mind, since I do not make the world spin, I would as always be willing to follow the leader (with a little misgiving in my heart).
Gul
Your confession above is not only bold but also speaks about your established conviction on this idea.
I, as a muslim who believes in Islam rationally (or thinks this way), like to discuss with you on this, if you promise not to indulge in insult/ridicule but to respond logic with logic, rational with rational and moral with moral.
My understanding is that a person can only reach to your stated conclusion once he is convinced with the idea that there is no creator. Is this correct?
Thanks
A Muslim
@JJK
I just read the hadith that you have quoted above and it makes me think that all the laws of blasphemy can be annulled with this quote only.
I also have something to quote from kashaf ul majub that a baddu went to Hassan ibne Ali and started swearing his forefathers.In response Hassan started laughing instead of trying him under blasphemy laws
@mbokhari
You say that your beliefs are not up for discussion. That you also assert by shying away from the debate on this topic. That is fine, but that does not absolve you from respect of other people’s beliefs. Either you debate with them, or you do not simply air any thing you have in mind. Surely, you can keep them to yourself. Because there are ideas and beliefs that are dear to someone else, and you can just be hurting that.
Does any type of belief that you have not tell you about the feelings of people and respect of beliefs of others? That is part of universal ethics, and more hyped in the atheist circles than others, I thought.
Anywhere in the non-muslim world too you do not start speaking any thing on these ideas. Save when you are really interested in debating which you are unwilling to.
And if your defense is that these ideas were written by Bertrand Russel in his books, then yes, he wrote them in his books, and it is completely the choice of anybody to read them or not.
@justice
Thanks for your feedback.
Definition of blasphemy: a defamation of religion, vilification of religion, and religious vilification. (wikipedia)
What you and I shared were examples of personal abuse, where the target was that particular individual not Islam.
Here Dr Zakir explains the concept.
@fmk
My personal beliefs are not up for discussion because they spring from personal feelings, emotional needs and childhood indoctrination. I realize they are indefensible but convenient. To some extent they jive with my personal pessimism/nihilism and give me a fleeing hope against the realization of my personal mortality.
I shy away from saying what I suspect to be true because, precisely, I ‘suspect’ and I am not convinced. What am I not convinced by and suspect to be true? Outright atheism. No thinking man can deny this tug and pull between Imaan and Kufr, the Kaaba behind and the un-Kaaba ahead. Can you? Are you sure about everything? Are you an unthinking simpler life form, an amoeba?
Respect should not be mandatory. It should be earned. Respect should not be accorded to beliefs, only to facts. Beliefs cannot be defended. Evidence and facts can be defended and help mankind in creating hypotheses and theorems. These hypotheses and theorems change, evolve, or are discarded as new evidence comes to light. This would not happen if “respect” was accorded to these theorems or hypotheses. The creative minority (there it is again!) would cease to exist if morons started demanding that all questioning, all research, all ridicule and all free thought should die because “our baleefs should be reshpekted!!11″
What I just outlined above is the Scientific Method of investigating the universe. When I post here, I expect a certain level of original thinking from someone before I respond to them. What I do not expect to do is to give education. You have universities for that.
And never mind copy-pasting monkeys who should be ignored, not “respected” just because they happen to believe in the same lunacy you do. Sheikh Bertrand Russell, Jannat-Makani, comes to mind again (point 8 from above): A rational man must always choose intelligent dissent over dumb conformity.
“Respect” for authority, be it religious, political or academic is anathema to reason and science.
If you happen to believe in pink unicorns, do you expect everyone to respect your beliefs? What if everyone believed in pink unicorns except you? Would you reserve the right of ridicule for yourself or give it up in the interest of “respect”? Exactly what percentage of people should believe in pink unicorns before you will start respecting them? 49%? 51%? 1%? Your argument is severely flawed, your premise unqualified and the conclusion you reach does not follow.
Hurting people’s religious beliefs, ridiculing pink unicorns, satirizing Musharraf and lampooning Zardari all arise from the same wellspring of human spirit: to defy authority and proclaim liberty.
Your obnoxious exhortation of “universal ethics” of the atheists in the interest of respecting others’ beliefs is unfounded and foolish. Simply not true. Atheism thrives on satirizing religion.
You seem to be miffed and apparently feel snubbed that I refuse to debate my personal beliefs. I assure you it has nothing to do with you. My motives are personal and also compel me to NOT defend my beliefs. You can call my God, “a toy God” and you wouldn’t hear a peep out of me. The Creator can defend himself better than I can defend him. He doesn’t need the likes of me or you or @JJK or the @Tandoori monkey defending him.
It is also completely the choice of everyone to skip over my posts here, inconvenient arguments anywhere, and uncomfortable truths in life in general, and not to think. In fact, my Sheikh, Mawlana Bertrand Russell, says: Most men would sooner die than think. In fact, they do so.
And since you asked, I stopped paying attention to what you had to say about Muslim decline since last week where you wrote:
I must apologize before I say that is one of the most asinine things I have come across in my time. Civilizational decline is an academic discipline and has been since the 12th century at least. Al-Beruni wrote on it, as did Razi. Edward Gibbons’ book on the decline and fall of the Roman Empire is a seminal work. Then you have extended scholarship on the demise of the Ottoman Empire, the USSR and the British Empire. If that wasn’t enough to jolt your dormant sense of curiosity, the previous post by me on that thread included a link, a quotation and its explanation from Toynbee about civilizational decay. But instead of being curious about what has been written about the subject, you decide to opine and have the recipe ready: weakness of faith, impurity of belief and lack of Tawheed!
So simple! (here I slapped my hand on my forehead) All what we need to do now is to proclaim a universal Khilafa with its first order of business being the establishment of re-education camps where belief in Tawheed will be tested by officer Assistant Munkir and Deputy Nakeer. This ought to be of paramount importance, according to you, if the Ummah is to rise again from the ashes like a magnificent Tawheedi Sphinx!
Your next point was a bit agreeable and sensible. But @fmk from last week does not agree with the @fmk here:
Tolerance? Should be there at any cost? I daunT baleef!
I assumed your “justice and truth” to be the concept of Tawheed, which seems to be getting a drubbing these days and must be re-animated. (with violence if need be?)
And that’s when I stopped reading.
Now, that I have given a full account of myself, I implore you to not feel under any obligation to write an essay-length response to defend yourself.
It is not needed.
@mbokhari
>> This ought to be of paramount importance, according to you, if the Ummah >> is to rise again from the ashes like a magnificent Tawheedi Sphinx!
Care to define whose decline or uplifting was under discussion? If it were of the muslims, then is there any sense in talking about “islam without Tawheed”? You must be considering some other group’s downfall or its remedial steps.
Furthermore, when I wrote “I feel the pain, that the muslims did lose their strength of freedom: which I believe basically comes from tawheed! “, it is freedom which I consider to emanate from tawheed. You took it a long way to write it as the basis of the downfall.
As far as the tolerance is concerned, let this not be a show of ego, for that is the root of all intolerance. If you feel I was disrespectful to you god — which I do not think though, because I just said what you wrote from your battle between god and science, which god has been losing, and is only there to balance your equation — I apologize.
As far as your line “it is not needed” is concerned, let me reflect you to the rule # 1 from your guru.
@mbokhari
“I assumed your “justice and truth” to be the concept of Tawheed, which seems to be getting a drubbing these days and must be re-animated. (with violence if need be?)”
You can throw in your mindset onto every thing you want, make any assumptions you want and stay happy. An open mind of course behaves rather differently.
fmk
all he wants, according to himself, is to provoke people to trigger a debate so he could brush up on old reading.
He likes to question people on god & fate but presents his own views as emotions feelings & childhood propaganda.
Best way to respond to him is to just fail his triggers
We have taken Jewish kings and turned them into prophets.King David is described as “murderer and adulterer”….Deuteronomy 20:16-17
Google, David and Bathsheb it is very interesting read.
@JJK
A couple of things:
If you’d read my post carefully, you’d have recognised that it was not a confession – there are no crimes anyone is confessing to here – I was merely questioning whether ijtehad is a good starting point for societal reform (given that religions are man made);
Again, you said my stated ‘conclusion’ is that there is no creator. It should have been clear from my post that there is a possibility that there is no supreme being. But for you I’ll put it here simply: it is not possible for reason or logic to either prove or disprove the existence of God, and therefore I also do not know; and
hence, I would not enter into a debate that can lead nowhere for me.
Thanks
to clarify the third point, neither can I convince anyone of the existence of God, nor convince them of the non existence of God. First, because I do not know myself, and second because it is unknowable for sure.
Gul,
Agreed that one can not proof God or disprove God.
But my question was about creation. For example you look at this website, you do not know the creator of this website, nor see him, but by looking at this website one can definitely tell that somebody created it because this website can not come in to being by itself or by random viruses on the web.
@Gul:
For the sake of my education, has this statement of yours been proved (by reason or logic)?:
“it is not possible for reason or logic to either prove or disprove the existence of God”.
please point me the proof. or is it just a conjecture still?
@fmk,
The onus of proof is on the believer not the non believer.
Hmmm, see whats happening, beliefs, personal, religious, philosophical, all sorts keep creeping in the discussion despite the claims by some participants that they are in fact not discussing the beliefs. But look at it from a neutral position and you will see that despite the effort and claims by the participants, beliefs keep coming up. If you cant keep beliefs out of a discussion on a net forum how on earth you will do that when you separate beliefs from community and state matters.
@zia m
Man you please stop going round and round in circles, didnt you say that you believe in a Supreme Being and now you want a proof of it, if you do, why are you asking for a proof again? , I mean its none of my business if you believe ot not but now this is turning into an argument just for the hell of it. Is it that you want to add your ‘TALL’ from he back row and let the main QAWALL do all the singing
And this question bothers me. Granted that you me and everybody has a choice of religion or no religion, but why people who dont believe in Islam are so worried about Muslims and decline and rise and fall. I mean Muslims are Muslims because of their religion and beliefs , in which these guys dont believe in by their own admission. So one can safely conclude they should think about the wider human race and be worried about it. If you dont identify yourself with a tribe , and think they are bunch of whatever , why bother discussing them all the time?. Do something for the rights of Gays for example. Why are you worried about us?
if it wasn’t for the clash of these two view points it would just remain personal belief.
believer of one view will claim that financial interest is good for the economy due to x/y/z reasons but believer of other view will reject it because the creator has forbidden.
believer of one view will claim that flesh of swine is good to eat because of x/y/z reasons but other side will reject it
so what i mean to say is that both believes lead to different systems, that are not compatible with each other.
@bhola,
I do believe in Almighty but it is not based on rationality, you can call it spirituality or faith.
It is the religious guys who keep asking for proof and want to debate everything.
For a change would be nice if the faithful also start worrying about the rest of the world.
Gays are also humans, please don’t be so arrogant.You might end up with some gays in the jannat instead of hoori. Don’t look down upon your Almighty’s creation.You ignorant!
Good discussion
@JJ Khan
“But my question was about creation. For example you look at this website, you do not know the creator of this website, nor see him, but by looking at this website one can definitely tell that somebody created it because this website can not come in to being by itself or by random viruses on the web.”
In Philosophical jargon your argument is called “The Argument from Design”.
This argument has been rejected on logical grounds by many Philosophers.
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
To quote from Wikipedia
“Although there are variations, the basic argument can be stated as follows:
X is too complex, orderly, adaptive, apparently purposeful or beautiful to have occurred randomly or accidentally.
Therefore, X must have been created by a sentient, intelligent, wise, or purposeful being.
God is a sentient, intelligent, wise, or purposeful being.
Therefore, God exists.
By those who disagree with this view, the first argument is considered a type of fallacy known as a loaded question,[citation needed] since it assumes that randomness cannot lead to complexity. It also assumes that there are only 2 options: occurring accidentally or having been created by a sentient being, which is known as a false dichotomy fallacy.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument
@ zia m
Drink a glass of Thanda Paani. And rad my post again.
1. I didnt say even a single bad word about Gays. I mentioned it as one of the popular causes in today’s world, if you want you can read it Lesbians, or global warming or whatever.
2. You did as for a proof lets see
>>@fmk,
The onus of proof is on the believer not the non believer
And then you rant on:
>>t is the religious guys who keep asking for proof and want to debate everything.
So a third grader can read both your statements and can tell that this is a confused person. Cant you see the difference in two statements made within a few hours ?
3. You ignored my main question and decided to look for ignorance in my post. Which is, why are you so worried about a bunch of people who are called Muslims because of their belief , in which you dont believe in?
4 My concept of who will go to Jannat or Jahanam was not the point to discuss and as you guys like to say ‘ its not up for discussion’
God knows where did you find that out in my post ,or is it the anger at QAWAL comment? I apologize if that annoyed you. My concept of Jannat is that Gays may be living in Jannat , I am not the person to say that they wont but certainly they wont be living WITH me, that is if I do end up in Jannat. You are allowed to fancy whatever you find suits your taste
@JJK
“definitely tell that somebody created it because this website can not come in to being by itself or by random viruses on the web.”
The next logical question would be who created the “random” viruses on the net and after that who created the web and so on……………………………My personal conclusion: There is ONLY ONE creator.
@tornado
“The next logical question would be who created the “random” viruses on the net and after that who created the web and so on……………………………My personal conclusion: There is ONLY ONE creator.”
Very interesting indeed
BTW who created tht “ONLY ONE creator” ??
Dude you are trying “First Cause Argument”
Just read carefully what Bertrand Russel says about it
“Perhaps the simplest and easiest to understand is the argument of the First Cause. (It is maintained that everything we see in this world has a cause, and as you go back in the chain of causes further and further you must come to a First Cause, and to that First Cause you give the name of God.) That argument, I suppose, does not carry very much weight nowadays, because, in the first place, cause is not quite what it used to be. The philosophers and the men of science have got going on cause, and it has not anything like the vitality it used to have; but, apart from that, you can see that the argument that there must be a First Cause is one that cannot have any validity. I may say that when I was a young man and was debating these questions very seriously in my mind, I for a long time accepted the argument of the First Cause, until one day, at the age of eighteen, I read John Stuart Mill’s Autobiography, and I there found this sentence: “My father taught me that the question ‘Who made me?’ cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question `Who made god?’” That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindu’s view, that the world rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, “How about the tortoise?” the Indian said, “Suppose we change the subject.” The argument is really no better than that. There is no reason why the world could not have come into being without a cause; nor, on the other hand, is there any reason why it should not have always existed. There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause. ”
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
@zia m
>>> “The onus of proof is on the believer not the non believer”
I find outlandish wisdom and logic in this response….bravo
you won!
Red-Scorpion
Well, I am neither a philosopher, nor theoretic researcher. I believe Allah didn’t make this so difficult to leave the answer to philosophers/theoerticians.
I would put it this way
X exists, X can not create itself nor can it destroy itself, where did X come from, what was before X and what is after X and what is my relationship with X
is this a political discussion on pakistani politics????
@JJ Khan
“I would put it this way
X exists, X can not create itself nor can it destroy itself, where did X come from, what was before X and what is after X and what is my relationship with X”
“X exists” —– How do you know ?
“X can not create itself nor can it destroy itself” —– So X is not Omnipotent ?
“where did X come from,what was before X and what is after X and what is my relationship with X” —– Tell us please !
@janujerman khan
How do you know 1 god made all this instead of 20 or 200?
@lota6177
Haven’t you heard that there would have been wars amongst gods if there were many ?
Red-Scorpion,
What I meant by X was matter (everything that can be sensed in this universe)
After defining x, now i can answer your question “How do you know”, because I sense it.
lota
you tell me what is god and i will tell you the number
@janujerman khan’
god is a myth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth
Red-Scorpion,
Would you kindly review below again with respect to definition of x defined above?
X exists, X can not create itself nor can it destroy itself, where did X come from, what was before X and what is after X and what is my relationship with X
@janujerman khan
when in trouble copy and paste from khilafat website.:)
@janujermankhan
how long does it take to copy and paste the answer from the khilfat …..
Most people are busy with Rauf Klasra’s and Haroon Rasheed.
And the Musharraf trial.
However, the govt is busy with its plans for rental power plants for $ 2 Billion. This is huge and the Pakistani people will be paying for this long after Zardari and his Raja are gone..back to UK.
Where is the parliament on this? Where is the opposition? Has there been debate by economic and energy sectors experts if this is a wise decision. Or was this idea thought of by the infinitely wise President.. Even 10% of $2Billion is $200 Million…Not a bad idea at all
I request @a d m i n to do an ‘investigative’ piece on this rental power project.
You will be shocked to see this
The Miseducation of Pakistan (excerpt)
@janujerman khan
Emailing khalifah staff and pleading for helap. He has been asked a question that is outside of the guidelines of the copy and paste information he was given.
http://www.khabrain.com/aaj-akhbar.aspx?pg=12
First return the money you father has looted.
@JJ Khan
The Argument from Design is somehow as under
“X is too complex, orderly, adaptive, apparently purposeful or beautiful to have occurred randomly or accidentally.
Therefore, X must have been created by a sentient, intelligent, wise, or purposeful being.
God is a sentient, intelligent, wise, or purposeful being.
Therefore, God exists.”
>>>>>
By those who disagree with this view, the first argument is considered a type of fallacy known as a loaded question,[citation needed] since it assumes that randomness cannot lead to complexity. It also assumes that there are only 2 options: occurring accidentally or having been created by a sentient being, which is known as a false dichotomy fallacy.
http://www.khabrain.com/aaj-akhbar.aspx?pg=12
Khoon Chaiyay Khoon Dein Gaay – Sirr Chaiyay Sirr Dein Gaay – Jaan Maan Goo Jaan Dein Gaay
Purr
PM Gillani Ko Shirt, Tie, Suit Paint & Shoes kee Selection Saay Ziadah Kay Ikhtiarat Qatann Na Dein Gaay.
Sub Say Buhr Kur/Above All
Pakistan Saay Loot Kur LaiJana Wala Maal – Qatann Kisy Surat Iss Quam Ko Wapiss Na Dein Gaay.
Haiy Haiy Bechari Masoom Bachi Abdeeda Hogai!!!!!!
Was this necessary to show the Loyalty does it really matter if a Giant Size Jiyala drank or smoked a fu*k*n kilo of ganja a week!? How about we just enjoy the great PPPilia Music that he & she left behind for us. Then maybe we can all smoke sit back and enjoy. lol
@Red-Scorpion
JJk’s ideas on this site consist of copy and pasting information from his khilafat website.
@Adnan Arshad Mansoori
Is it too much to ask to keep the curse words out of your posts? Please keep it decent when you’re interacting outside your house.
With Stubborn Unrest in Swat, Landowners Remain in Exile
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/world/asia/28swat.html?hp
Red-Scorpion,
I am not saying because x is complex/orderly so god is complex/orderly so god exist. Not sure why you are repeating it.
I am going one step back, before analyzing complexity, order, purpose etc one must question where it come from, who brought it, what is my relationship with this?
For example if you are sitting in a room and see a mobile phone and you start to see the complexity of the mobile phone and start praising the engineer who designed it wouldn’t you think first whose mobile is this, who left it here, do I have permission to pick it up his mobile and analyze it.
So my question is if matter can not create itself or destroy itself then how did it come to existence?
Ahu & Me: A Dog Is Lost, Hope Is Found In Pakistan
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072702632.html?wprss=rss_world
lota6177 said:@Adnan Arshad Mansoori
Is it too much to ask to keep the curse words out of your posts? Please keep it decent when you’re interacting outside your house.
Piyaray – Raaj Dularay LOTAY Bhaiya:
Now you are Cutting & Pasting NYT editorial when earlier this AAM himself told you that American & their Puppets Sorry Obedient Servants do not have Capability to control the same moreover before ending of this year America & her Allied Forces will declare their FACE SAVING strategy.
Remember ——- How You made fun of me & in which words/calling names I was allotted you & your like-minded.
Maudbaana Choti See Guzarish:
Naa karo Dosroun Ko Nasihat – Jab Kay Khud aur Apnaoun Ko Fasihat.
Lotay Bhaiya Last Time Jubb Mein NY Aiya tha Tou Eik American Dost Ko Eik SooARR Pet kay Tourr Pur Tuhfatun Diya Woh iss say Kho Giya Hai – Kiyoun Kay Woh Khinzeer Zehni Beemar Hogia Tha:
Aap Uski Madad Kursaktay Hein – Mutalah Farmiyaiy.
Akhir Ko Woh Aapka City-Mate Hai.
@JJ Khan
“So my question is if matter can not create itself or destroy itself then how did it come to existence?”
>>>>>
What led you to presume that matter is creation of someone ?
What if matter has always existed ?
Do you have any proof that matter is a creation of some Supreme Being (God) ?
Red-Scorpion,
Well, there is no assumption, the fact is if matter can not create itself or destroy itself then there must be another entity that is “non-matter” that brought matter into existence because matter depends on “non-matter” and this dependency leads me to acknowledgement of the supreme being.
Matter always existed?? Even if you give unlimited time to matter, it can not create itself, so always or unlimited can not change reality.
Above two points lead us to acknowledging the fact that matter depends upon supreme being.
@JJ Khan
Your argument (if we can call it at all) goes like this
the fact is if matter can not create itself or destroy itself
>>> then there must be another entity that is “non-matter” that brought matter into existence
>>> because matter depends on “non-matter”
>>> and this dependency leads me to acknowledgement of the supreme being.
1- How did you come to know ‘the fact’ that “matter can not creat itself”, and how can you prove this ‘fact’ to others ?
2- Why there must be ‘another entity’ which created matter ? and how do you know that that ‘another entity’ is ‘non-matter’ ?
3- How do you know that matter depends on “non-matter’ ?
@adnan arshad mansoori
آپ اچی زبان استعمال کریں مائی آپ کئے بہنوئی جس کا نام آپ نئے دوست رکھا ہائے کا گفٹ واپس ان تک پہنچا دتھا ہوں .
@ JJ Khan
Hope you’ll enjoy these videos !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyjufVuQZ48&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXMKPvWqgYk&feature=related
Red-Scorpion,
And here is my response to your videos
Enjoy
@JJ Khan
I’m really impressed by your Intellectual Response !
Red-Scorpion,
Thanks
I give you one liner question and you run back to gods of philosophy to find suitable category to fit it in.
You returned back with boring videos (not sure for what), but I at least returned with something that you might have enjoyed
Seems you are at the beginning of your journey, so first sort out your categories & labels and then start applying once you are able to use
Guys I want your opinion about this case and the statement of Rana Sanaullah. I think admin should put the munawwar gill case and shameless behaviour of some of the N-league leaders in this case particularly.
http://jang.com.pk/jang/jul2009-daily/28-07-2009/u639.htm
Admin — Another Blast – Kindly Pay Attn: As Kamran Khan did & try to gain your kind attn., today.
Kamran Khan always tries to focus on such News For Us which are really may become subsequently Burning Issue/News of this Poor Country.
Good to see someone in this Pakistan has a clue who can clearly point out what is the very next disaster for this poor nation. At last a politically impartial news programme that tells it like it is Working on By Forced through Pakistani Banks’ Guranteed Rental Energy Machines which is going to cost wise Rs.19/= per unit in January 2010 Imagine What Jiyala & Co. is Doing with this Innocent Nation, over all the Rent is over Rs.200.00 Bln. For 5 yrs. This will go to customers homes and replacing parts for about a year.
I can confirm that this is the most common Burning issue of SC of Pakistan in Coming Days. Bet it. There was a time when the very idea of Improvement in Wapda & KESC such a flawless would have been regarded as an Act of war. Everyone in PPP involved with that American Based IMF Dictation in Tarriff Rate should be chopped up.
As this so poor & innocent Pakistani Nation is witnessed the PPP has lost 17/18 months just for nothing: Pakistan’s Economy growth has suffered “significantly”, “catastrophically” and inflation would rise naturally, if this particular Mindset of PPP Delay Tactics are not finished now such as this same AZ & Co. had in the matter of Impeachment of Pervaiz Musharraf, Salman Taseer’s Unnecessary Intervention in the Punjab, Restoration of Judges & now currently 17thAmendment.
Admin Again in clear words I draw your kind attention with assurance as it seems you have also a Painful Heart for this Poor Nation so that kindly keep this news above all the other News as this ATOM BOMB is about Drop on Common Man in form of Rental Energy Machines which is going to cost wise Rs.19/= per unit in January 2010. It is Repeated — Sir-Admin.
No dialogue, no truce, only elimination
@mbokhari,
Don’t you think it is an attempt by the media to demonize the enemy?There are plenty of examples in the history.
Hitler tried to demonize the Jews by declaraing them as inferior race.Americans demonized the Germans and the Japanese.
These days Americans are demonizing Muslims by declaring them as “Terrorists”.
You just demonize or dehumanize the enemy to conceal your guilt of killing other human beings.
I admit i am a pacifist just thinking out loud.
Policy Matters July 28.
Sheikh Rashid warning politicians not to look back ( probably meaning Musharaff`s trial ) and do the politics of revenge, and if they do, then this politics of revenge can reach their children.
To me, this is a very serious threat coming from him or through him and should be noticed by MLN, PPP or any other, even the CJ, who are planning to prosecute Musharaff or his collaborators.
I think the poor guy is scared to death and trying to save his own skin.
Hamza Shehbaz or even Bilawal, you batter watch ouy.
@zia m
These days Americans are demonizing Muslims by declaring them as “Terrorists”.
It is not just the Americans you can add Chinese, Russians, Europeans, Africans, Australians and everyone who reads a newspaper to the list of everyone who thinks all terrorist are Muslims. This title has been more earned than given. What pacifist solution is there to solve this problem?
@lota,
Resolving Palestinian and Israel issue can be a good start.No ?
zia m
what about Kashmir,Chechnia, Mindanao, Xinjiang,etc etc????
And then Sharia in England.? then in France, USA,Canada and other countries???
There is no end to it .
As you know many of the Islamic countries have not voted for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights sponsored by the UN, admitting that this document was in conflict with Islamic values.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
In August of 1990, representatives of 54 Muslim countries met in Cairo and signed the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam
If you look at the preamble of the UDHR, you will see that there is no mention of any religion. All religions and cultures are assumed to be equal. All of humanity are asked to work together to promote universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms. But in the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, we can detect a completely different tone.
Right from the first paragraph of the preamble, the Cairo Declaration confidently asserts the superiority of Islam by referring to the Islamic Ummah as the BEST NATION. The Ummah has a historic role to play in guiding a humanity confused by competing trends and ideologies and to provide solutions to the chronic problems of this materialistic civilization.
This is no implication, unlike in the UDHR, that all cultures and religions are equal. Indeed the rest of humanity is supposedly confused and in need of guidance from the best nation. Right from the start of the Cairo Declaration, it is made clear the world is divided into MUSLIMS AND INFIDELS.
@admin
Can you please upload Muhammad Malick’s show “kehnay main kiya harj hay”. I know we don’t like this guy but his show is quite interesting, especially today’s show was quite informative. HM and Anwar Baig ripped apart Fauzia wahab.
@zia m
Solving the Palestinian issue would be a very good thing but I have no illusions that terrorism is going to go away anytime soon. Ayman al zawahiri and Osama bin laden didn’t create al Qaeda because of the Palestinian issue. The Taliban or the Egyptian brotherhood didn’t come into existence to solve the Palestinian issue. People in Swat are not dying due to Palestine or America.
Then perhaps you don’t understand the Palestinian conflict rightly pin pointed by zia m as the root cause of this cancer while other problems are just symptoms of this disease.
All should remeber one thing.We as a nation want others to work for the country but we change our stance ,when it comes to our self interest.We have a history of gaining benifits from rulers,by showing our loyality and winning khillaats and jagirs.The priod of Ashoka and Moria empires was exemplary and indians inherited a culture of democracy,whereas muslims inherited a culture of dictatorship,khoshamad,personal wafadari like Mahmood and Ayaz. Its however comforting to see that new generation is changing for the good.So in my view, Zardari, Ziaulhaq,Shahid Masood, Hamid Mir are the same people having different names and different professions. They have one thing in common.They believe”Others should be sincere ,We may however pursue our self interst.
@lota,
I truly believe if Palestinian and Israeli issue is resolved, Al Qaeda won’t have a leg to stand on.American fought the British and they were freedom fighters if Palestinians want to fight for their rights they are terrorists.How soon we forget the massace of American Indians at the hands of Christian invaders.
Without justice there can be no peace.It is because of freaking Evangelists and Zionist Jews the Palestinian are deprived of their right to exist.The concept of “promised land” is a Judeo christian phenomenon based on religion.
I hope you understand the basis of this concept.
I agree with you resolving this issue is not going to stop the Khalifa movement but it will strike a devastating blow to it.
I could be wrong but i think American policies are the major cause of radicalism amongst Muslims.
My comment is under moderation.Time out!
Thank you, moderator.
@zia m
I put no stock in religion because of the word religion we have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. The problem is too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers.
Is there any Suqrat/Buqrat or any sort of Zehni-Beemar who can shower his Buqratiat on the following as the same an outstanding achievement of the West who promotes this on the name of Woman’s Right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/science/2009/07/090729_divorce_health_scar_rr.shtml
@AAM
This piece of information might be new for you, but research has supported the negative effects of divorce for a long time now.
Today, though, you have succeeded in amazing me despite your known opinions as stated on pkp.
Divorce is a human right, not just ‘Woman’s right’. What made you think the west ‘promotes’ divorce in the interests of women’s rights? Are you completely devoid of common sense and logic? Forget the West – which does not promote divorce – only protects every human’s right to it. What about all of the East, within every country of which this right is enshrined in the respective penal codes?
Many things are stressful. Do you know that research in the U.K. in the late nineties showed that purchasing a house was more (or equally) stressful than divorce. Should purchase of property, therefore, be banned?
AAM
Regarding:
You got one right above me
Gul: Is that so? No wonder u give such a comment. Maybe if you wise enough, maybe u should challenged directly to Any Well Recognized Islamic Scholar.
My Anger is focused Only for those Western Countries (Leadership-Policy Makers-Trendsetters) e.g the USA, UK, France & rest of other Christian Countries who bought to our Army Generals & thereafter some of Politicians.
They handed over expensive gifts in form Aid Friendship Packages against No Implementation of own Islamic Sharia System, we can-not inject in our Social Set Up the Islamic Economy System moreover not able to remove the Ready Made at Christian Country the Education System.
That’s Why:
Wohi Kuch Dhond Kur Lata Hoon – Maloom Hoo Jis Say West Khud Socially Tabah Hora Raha Hai
Hum Watanoun Khasoosun Jawanoun – Inka Nizam Khokla Horaha Hai.
Yeh Tou Khud Toum Saay Dartay Hein -
Dosry Taraf Aap Unkay Hee Stupid kee Tarah Goon Gatay Hein -
Kiya Puri Umat e Muslaima Zahni Beemar Hogai Hai –
Apni Asliat Kee Taraf Kiyoun Nahee Laut Aatee Hai?
As there was an Economic Recession in UK in those days a Mighty Wealthy Man used to Earn 500 SP p.d. on other hand another Eng.Man was not able to earn even a Single S.P.
To Remove such Hardship for others – do you know that What Prophet Muhammad(Ss) in clear words Said regarding purchasing a house “Do not Buy More than One” Why logically you will forget Almighty Allah(Jj) with the passage of time. Therefore, every thing which is in excess more than your need i.e. for Allah(Jj) & his believers.
@Gul
Is it a good comparison? House vs. wife?
A house is bought for money and mostly money from the bank or another financing company. Usually the problems occur because of lack of capability to pay back the loan. I don’t think it is the case with the wife.
JJK: No Not at All
Jou Dhariay Ko Afsha Karay Zehni Beemar ko Pora Pagal Karay
Above All:
Jou Allah(Jj) aur Rasool(Ss) Say Mohabbat Kee Baat Karay
Woh Din Raat Zindagi Kay Hur Shobay Mein Taraqi Karay
@Gul
Care to tell why BBC covered & published this story if research had already shown support of negative effects of divorce on health?
Care to tell why researcher Dr Linda Waite, a sociologist at the University of Chicago, wasting her time on already known facts?
Care to tell why Christine Northan, a counsellor for Relate, was surprised to see the results of this research??
Admin:
Meri Samjh Mein Izafa Kurdeijiay Jub 100% comments Bil-Akhir approved Hojatay Hein –
Tou Hamesha Meray Comments =Moderation= Kay Saath Kiyoun Appear Hotay Hein?
Jub Saay Aap =Moderation= Shroo Kiyay Hein
Tub Saay Hee Puranay Style ko Khair Baad Kiyay Hein
Yani Samnay Walay Kee ****************** Choray Hein
Koi Complex Nahee Hai Aisy Batoun Kee SANWEE Hasiat Hai
Lakin Logical Yehi Hai Sawal Jub 100% comments approval Hai –
Tou Kiya Yeh Ratio Aapki Danist Mein Acha aur Munasib Hai?
Admin: Bhaut Achay Bhee Bhaut Hee Achay.
@JJK and AAM
If there were research on the wiring of confused brains and illogical thinkers, yours would make for prized illustrative specimens.
I am sorry, but you people don’t know the first thing about a rational discussion. I will have to excuse myself from this.
Goodbye.
p.s. if your urge to say the last word is too strong, and you must type a nonsensical tirade again as a response, I will let my better sense prevail and let it die here.
Let this also be my last comment to the one who is
A peace of sheer arrogance, egotism, and vanity. Who looks down upon others with silly, flawed and baseless arguments.
Yes that is you who uses flower as name but is worst than thorn.
“The priod of Ashoka and Moria empires was exemplary and indians inherited a culture of democracy,whereas muslims inherited a culture of dictatorship,khoshamad,personal wafadari ……..”
What an awful load of c**p !!!
There was not an iota of democracy in the rule of Ashoka or Maurias.
If you had ever bothered to read “Arth Shastar” of Chankya which was a guidebook of Maurias you would not have uttered such non-sense.
Apparently, the so called “knowledge” gained from watching indian movies results in such ridiculous comments.
Peshawar – Fear is spreading across University Town, an upmarket residential area in Pakistan’s north-western city of Peshawar, due to the overt presence of the controversial US private security contractor Blackwater.
Gul: ………………………..I will let my better sense prevail and let it die here.
It is far better do not argue further and disappear at once but with strong hope for future:
*************************************************
Dear Commenters/ Commentators
The best practice in commenting would be to share your thoughts about an event, video or news followed by the associated link and move on. For those who love to engage in a protracted discussion about an issue, I suggest them to go to the Discuss section and create their own topics.
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@peterpan773
It is really comical to see how Cairo declaration is promising equal dignity instead of equal rights. What a pathetic declaration and sad thought process the Muslim countries are going through. The CDHRI concludes in article 24 and 25 that all rights and freedoms mentioned are subject to the Islamic Shariah, which is the declaration’s sole source. The CDHRI declares “true religion” to be the “guarantee for enhancing such dignity along the path to human integrity”. It also places the responsibility for defending those rights upon the entire Ummah. In the Article 6, women are guaranteed equal dignity, in contrast to the Universal declaration which offers equal rights. Rights are specific and can be enumerated, whereas “dignity” is an amorphous concept which means one thing to one group, and another thing to another group. Groups who might disagree on specifics can agree on “dignity,” precisely because the term is vague, though the specifics of that “dignity,” as applied in a particular nation, might scandalize, embarrass, or outrage a gaze that refuses to be averted. The term “dignity,” because of its vagueness, relieves a ruler from having to enumerate specific rights accorded or not accorded depending on gender
Islam and women rights, shariah gave women dignity and religion approved “light beatings”. Feel free to beat your wife with an electric wire as long as it doesn’t hurt her dignity.
@a d m i n
I have a suggestion , if your team could collect the great moments of “struggle for judiciary” and compile them in a video , so that we could reflect upon them. Here will be my list of moments:
1. The March 9th 2007 (Geo footage , Newspaper cutting etc.)
2. Some good programs scene perhaps from Capital talk etc.)
3. Perhaps some comments from Justice Vajih , Aitzaz Ahsan
4. The verdict of 20th July
5. Some good program clips during the presidential elections
6. And then of course 3rd November
7. Aitzaz’s Poem Kal aaj aur kal
8. Long March
9. And my favorite Ali Kurd’s fiery speeches
10. And dekho dekho woh manzil hai
Last but not the least some comments of the contributors on pkpolitics
This may be a little time consuming task , but will be a great compilation
BTW I am just wondering if the a d m i n of this site has changed…. I hope GM could shed some light… any ideas?
@pejamistri
First of all, welcome back. What made you think the admin has changed. Yes I have learned a lot from you guys over years.
BTW, good suggestion. I might need some help in selecting some of the contents. Will contact you.
@Comrade Peja
This is a capital suggestion. May I suggest a list of possible soundtracks?
- hum dekhen ge
- pata laga menon hondi ki judai (bagaR billa Musharraf vacating the Army house)
- chupke chupke mere dil ke mehman ho gaye (Zardari becoming the President)
@qibla mbokhari
Absolutely, it will be great to extend the documentary till Zardari presidency and Musharraf’s “vacation” (I heard there was poll on pkpolitics that Musharraf should be allowed to come in politics. I don’t know what were the results).
Army uniforms for sale on the cheap
Dress like a General for under Rs. 300. Secondhand Pakistan army uniforms are available in all shapes and sizes at Lahore’s Landa bazaar is for just under 300 rupees. DawnNews reporter Danial Khan has the story from Pakistan’s second largest flea market in Lahore.
http://65.175.69.168:91/dawnanimation/army_in_landa_bazar/
Jiay Bhutto
Warning: @democrate …pls avoid
runaway said:
Jiay Bhutto
Warning: @democrate …pls avoid
Kyani – Aitizaz Meeting
KIyani is ko samjhao—–
WTF——
JURNAILO KO AIK DHAKA AUR DO—-
Back door diplomacy reached an agreement on Pakistan withdraw claim on Indian involvement in Baluchistan.
Agar ham apna ghar khood theek kar lein tou koi doosra mudakhlat naheen kar sakta.
Important meeting between Aitzaz Ahsan & Army Chief.
Guess what message Aitzaz Ahsan is carrying from Gen Kayani?
JanuJerman Khan said: meeting between Aitzaz Ahsan & Army Chief.
Guess what message Aitzaz Ahsan is carrying from Gen Kayani?===xxxxx===
Gen.Keyani with Robin Neil Cluff would have been tried to order to AH:
“Don’t try to be smart as your Bradari along with your sympathizers now-a-days openly on Electronic Media have been saying Hang Out at Aab Para Chowk to Gen. Mehmood, Gen.FA. Chisti, Gen. Rashid Qureshi etc with Pervaiz Musharraf as this is too Much – Stop this Nonsense at Once.”
@ AAM
just a rectification mate it should be ‘hang them at aab para choek ‘ not hang out as it changes the entire meaning as hang out stands for spend time in a certain location or with certain people
thanx
adil: My UserId is very AWAMI it is by mean even my office Messenger, Data Operator & even own Driver who is BA Passed have been Using plus every individual does have his/her own abilities/limitation why do you take me/them so serious?
In short when you find some immature or with some Grammatical Mistakes Comment, must be Understood – Don’t be so Serious like a ZehniBeemar/Retard.
Only one strict standing instruction to all whatever they type that must be with Solid Undeniable Proof/Evidence – Regarding Grammatical or Spelling Mistakes – No Importance at all.
AAM, (intended for the actual AAM)
I am afraid Adil is right, I didn’t understand that comment too, after Adil’s correction it made sense to me. Just like one dot in urdu can make a “mahram” a “mujram” similarly in English a wrong use of idiom can totally change the word. Who knows more about importance of choice of words/terms than a professional lawyer!
Secondly your name is your trademark, your brand, if you allow it to be used publicly then your trademark will end up with varying quality. Quality is very important my dear.
Thanks-
Yes JJ Khan You’re quiet right but there are certain if & buts & as already explained the major unforgivable object:
“Don’t Type with out any solid Proof/Evidence/Witnesses.”
The above is mother of all with the passage of time some improvement you will feel.
کامریڈ ساتھیوں-
قبلہ ٹ ک صاحب کہاں ھیں۔ حضرت جہاد فی الایران میں کام تو نہیں آ گے؟
جہاں ھوں خیریت سے مطلع فرمایں-
خاکسار
پیجا مستری
…………If supreme court leaves it to the Assembly, will it put Musharaff on trial for his atrocities.. ?
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/pehlwans-from-street-thugs-to-national-thugs-story-of-not-so-sharif-brothers/
Wow, these Khadim-e-Ala doing good khidmat to awam.
Cat that stirred fury in Pakistan can come back!!!
Jul 31, 2009 04:30 AM
Be the first to comment on this article…
SEAGRAVE, Ont.–An Ontario zoo and wildlife sanctuary says if asked, it would be happy to take back a Siberian tiger that has caused an uproar in Pakistan.
The year-old male tiger was imported by the nephew of Pakistan’s former prime minister Nawaz Sharif earlier this month.
After arriving on a flight from Toronto, the big cat was reportedly taken to an air-conditioned compound at the estate of Suleman Sharif, also son of the chief minister of Punjab province.
News that the tiger was chilling while Pakistan’s residents are sweltering in a heat wave and living through power outages caused an uproar, forcing the Sharif family to reportedly hand over the tiger to the government.
A World Wildlife Fund official has said the tiger will either be housed in a public zoo in Pakistan or relocated abroad.
The tiger’s original owner is willing to take the animal back. “If … they couldn’t take care of it and they want to ship it back to us we’d gladly take it,” said Norman Phillips of the Northwood Zoo and Animal sanctuary in Seagrave, Ont. “It’s pretty upsetting to me because we care for our animals here.”
The Canadian Press
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/674542
Adonis!
Question#1.Why there is no Martial Law in India and why India is respected as the biggest democracy by all the world.What are the roots of democracy in India.?
Question#2.Why Lal bahadur Shastri did not have a house when he died at Tashkent,as The PM of India.?
Q3# Arth Shastra is a religious book or Book of History.
Q4. Why the middle class in India is so large as compared to Pakistan with waderas ,beurucrats,Generals BIllioners and 50% people in poverty category?
@areeza
““It’s pretty upsetting to me because we care for our animals here.””
Yes they care for their animals, but so does the Sharif family in spite of people are melting in the heat. Long live our “saviors” the Sharif family! The majority of Pakistanis looks towards this family to be “saved”. What a shame and bad luck that we produce such “leaders”!
talal khan: You Fictitious Muslim Name holder first of all answer the followings you ran away from the followings & forwarding Counter Questions, why?
http://pkpolitics.com/2009/07/29/kal-tak-29-july-2009/#comment-240414
Indian Muslim celebrities get discriminated in Hindustan!
@talal khan
I ‘d attempt answering two of your many questions
Question#1.Why there is no Martial Law in India and why India is respected as the biggest democracy by all the world.What are the roots of democracy in India.?
Ans: The roots of democracy in India are as deep as the birth of All India Congress back in 1885. During freedom strugle masses were mobilized in central India Delhi, UP, Kolkota etc. There were some grass root movement in Lahore and Peshawar but very limited compare to mainland India. In India if Army takes over they can’t control riots all over. Thats why politicians no matter how corrupt they are can control unruly generals. Where as in Pakistan Martialaw is as easy as taking over PTV, Radio Pakistan and PM house even in this day and age of 80+ channels and all independent media. I ‘d never blame politicians or generals alone for this miserable situation. Masses are responsible as well. In India politicians, generals or Judicary hasn’t blocked the way of military rules its masses. Our masses should rise up. We have no right to blame US, Judicary, politicians, media or generals for our unwanted military take overs that usually lasts for 10 years.
Question#2.Why Lal bahadur Shastri did not have a house when he died at Tashkent,as The PM of India.?
Ans: Sharstri like Manmohan Singh doesn’t represent typical Indian politician. They are exceptions like Miraj M. Khan, Mubashir Hassan etc. Overall our political ruling elite is pretty similar on both sides of the border.
Pakistani womens must stop giving birth to childs,otherwise everyday many Mulla Omars will born.This is latest statement of Zardari’s Dangar Doctor Firdus ashiq awan .She was talking to a seminar on behbood A abadi and media.She explain that Government is considering to import Elfy for the purpose to stop further abaadi.Now a days she declares that she already use that,and find it helpful.
Kiani and aitazaz ahsan meeting was arranged before the supreme court ruling and on the issue of musharraf.It was a message from the army to Justice iftikhar Ch.
Why has so called President of Pakistan stopped this project (of buying submarines)? He needs to give satisfactory explanation! It is not child play to change deals like that! Is he looking for some personal gains out of it, as he is notorious for! It should not be allowed to happen!!!
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jul2009-daily/31-07-2009/mulkbharse/nat1.gif
@harat
We should try our best that every married woman give birth to a child every year to increase the size of the illitrate, unemployed, unhealthy ummat. And wait for the day as predicted in the link below:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/07/090729_population_bomb_anlysis_rr.shtml
“talal khan said:
Adonis!
Question#1.Why there is no Martial Law in India and why India is respected as the biggest democracy by all the world.What are the roots of democracy in India.?
Question#2.Why Lal bahadur Shastri did not have a house when he died at Tashkent,as The PM of India.?
Q3# Arth Shastra is a religious book or Book of History.
Q4. Why the middle class in India is so large as compared to Pakistan with waderas ,beurucrats,Generals BIllioners and 50% people in poverty category?”
—————————————————————————————————–
LOL. These questions are a prime example of “knowledge” gleaned from bollywood and Door Darshan.
I am sorry. I am neither interested in imparting “taleem-i-balighan” nor have the time to teach “budhay totay”. Especially with the status of your existing “knowledge” being so abysmal, I can only wish you good luck in your further education through “bollywood”.
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