“dont try to be over clever mr colonel or major or what ever you are.”
I don’t have any post or formal connection in Pak Army nor any of my nearby relative is there

“and mind you army as an instituition has this problem. no matter where they take up a job after retirement, their loyalties are to the army-afterall they get plots worth millions at dirt cheap prices from “army land”, what ever that means… as if army is the land revenue dept.”
Having loyalties is another thing but after retirement person’s actions are not responsibility of army! I don’t know what is the policy in context of lands, don’t have facts.

“if they are so prone to mistakes-more so than civilians they so conveniently hate as bloody civilians why do they have this habbit of taking over the country and any institution they take over. every time they took over the country they ruined it- remember the shameful surrender in 1971- a world record indeed for cowardice- and the misadventure they lied about as a victory in 1965- like as if they had conquered kashmir- and what about the drugs and weapons culture for zia days.”
Mistakes could be made by every human being be it in army or not! There can be some cases of hate but i think it is just stretched too far. taking over is not that appreciating, it does not help i think. I have wrote about 65 and 71 already. I can’t really judge the acts of Zia or others as neither i have enough facts nor aware of reasons for his actions.

“why is it that the frequecy of bad acts is more rampant in the case of army/ex-army personell? and what about “legalized corruption in the form of agriculture lands, half rates on PIA/Pakistan railways/joyrides at parks/cinemas and orcourse plots in DHA’s, askari schemes, awt schemes etc. the army is the biggest land mafia in pakistan and thats a FACT-and you do seem to have a problem with facts and tend to resort to fabrications and concoctions. Why did the aramy keep coming to power? The lust for more plots and agrarian lands- the desire for loot and plunder-afterall what else do you expect from those who are not ready to even pay a meagre Rs 5 toll tax/parking fee.”

I don’t think bad acts by army people are more frequent than others, it seems you want to pain it like that. I don’t have facts about lands etc if you have please do share. I think landlords are the biggest land mafia and army uses land as an institution not as individuals.! You blame me of fabrications but you might yourself be fabricating i really can’t say about plots etc, as i said if you have solid proofs then share it and also tell who those people really are. Corruption is corruption no matter who commits it.

“and mind you those nations which dishonor their teachers never prosper-and we, our army in particular is in a habbit of doing exactly this. not just brigs but the so called “honest and sincere and down to earth” jawans. recall the humiliation of a teacher by shameless FC sepahis in NWFP. those are facts – that if you have any problems with them…”
True, teachers must be honored but a couple of bad acts can’t be used to label all as bad!

“Army is not responsible for everything and especially for its retired officers! After a person gets retired then he/she is different than one on job!”

-dont try to be over clever mr colonel or major or what ever you are. and mind you army as an instituition has this problem. no matter where they take up a job after retirement, their loyalties are to the army-afterall they get plots worth millions at dirt cheap prices from “army land”, what ever that means… as if army is the land revenue dept.

“There is always possibility of mistakes by anyone as natural and Pak army is not an angel, they are also human beings! But in general Pak Army has been quite good and dedicated! Who knows who did what? It is very much possible that that history was corrected from propaganda against Pak Army of some people!”

-if they are so prone to mistakes-more so than civilians they so conveniently hate as bloody civilians why do they have this habbit of taking over the country and any institution they take over. every time they took over the country they ruined it- remember the shameful surrender in 1971- a world record indeed for cowardice- and the misadventure they lied about as a victory in 1965- like as if they had conquered kashmir- and what about the drugs and weapons culture for zia days.

“A couple of bad acts because of some bad leaders/people of Army can’t be used to justify whole institution as bad or corrupt!”

-why is it that the frequecy of bad acts is more rampant in the case of army/ex-army personell? and what about “legalized corruption in the form of agriculture lands, half rates on PIA/Pakistan railways/joyrides at parks/cinemas and orcourse plots in DHA’s, askari schemes, awt schemes etc. the army is the biggest land mafia in pakistan and thats a FACT-and you do seem to have a problem with facts and tend to resort to fabrications and concoctions. Why did the aramy keep coming to power? The lust for more plots and agrarian lands- the desire for loot and plunder-afterall what else do you expect from those who are not ready to even pay a meagre Rs 5 toll tax/parking fee.

and mind you those nations which dishonor their teachers never prosper-and we, our army in particular is in a habbit of doing exactly this. not just brigs but the so called “honest and sincere and down to earth” jawans. recall the humiliation of a teacher by shameless FC sepahis in NWFP. those are facts – that if you have any problems with them…

“all those advocating the “good” kyani and “good” army may first like to have a look at this article:

http://thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27076”

Don’t try to make false/illogical connections! Army is not responsible for everything and especially for its retired officers! After a person gets retired then he/she is different than one on job!

“facts speak for themselves. recently army apologists have been on their toes trying to potray the “savior of the nation” charade against “incompetent” civilians.”
You are actually Mr. Facts and only aware person on this planet! Army has been big power in protecting Pakistan along with people of Pakistan! We are all Pakistanis!

“A look at the wikipedia page on the army and its histry will bear tesament to the fact where army/ispr agents try to blackout the misdeeds of the army from the world,”
There is always possibility of mistakes by anyone as natural and Pak army is not an angel, they are also human beings! But in general Pak Army has been quite good and dedicated! Who knows who did what? It is very much possible that that history was corrected from propaganda against Pak Army of some people!

“like bugti murder, Dr shazia rape case, it being the most corrupt institution in Pakistan etc:”
A couple of bad acts because of some bad leaders/people of Army can’t be used to justify whole institution as bad or corrupt!

http://thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27076

facts speak for themselves. recently army apologists have been on their toes trying to potray the “savior of the nation” charade against “incompetent” civilians. A look at the wikipedia page on the army and its histry will bear tesament to the fact where army/ispr agents try to blackout the misdeeds of the army from the world, like bugti murder, Dr shazia rape case, it being the most corrupt institution in Pakistan etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pakistan_Army&action=history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_army

“I feel vindicated by Zaheer’s reply, apparently he does think I’m criticizing out of habit or emotions than on logic, anyway.”
It is still possible that you are criticizing out of habit, no one can see heart or intentions of a person.

“The question remains who is the biggest blood sucking leach? The rest of the three while abetting the army in various times do not even come close. Plus while the army had weapons the judges and politicians do not.”

Leach is the one who can’t deliver anything but Army did deliver most of the time for the country! Secondly, army does need resources but how much? one can’t say exactly! It is possible that they are taking more than they need or just appropriate. I think rest three are way too ahead in corruption especially politicians and they also don’t deliver except talks mostly, look at your Zardari sahib, everybody knows how he collected all that and became President by using “grave politics”! By the way, army must have weapons, should they instead carry spoons? If so then Zardari sahib should sell toffees in public buses

“I think you have not visited Karachi, however, to ensure you that this is not an exaggeration I’ll ask you to look these issues up in archives of the daily Dawn. These are prime land, given to army at throw away prices or even in some cases like National stadiums parking lot ex army officer Tauqir Zia ‘gifted’ it to the army.”
As i said army does need resources as an institution, should they live on mountains? and also said that there can be cases of corruption especially at the time of Musharraf! I don’t know how do you define prime land? By the way how many prime lands are in Karachi and Pakistan and who are their owners? What about landlords?

“Make a comparison sir! Our hospitals, airlines, power systems, railways etc were in much better conditions when Nawaz Sharif was over thrown. With absolute power army should have done wonders but as far as Karachi’s major hospitals are concerned they plummeted to a new low under the army rule, as did PIA, railways etc despite the shady deals of purchasing locomotives from China and Boeing 777’s. When you rule you are responsible, especially when you have taken it illegitimately.”

Firstly, it was Mr. Sharif who brought Musharraf from low to the top and then he showed him hand and threw him away! Secondly, Musharraf as i mentioned before proved a big blow to the country and army, we are paying for his wonderful time and policies till today and i think we have to pay a bit more. Thirdly, this was same MQM who was praising and working in Karachi under him! Fourthly, i again oppose army rule but our politicians also have some sicknesses!

“Now now Sir, who is being emotional here, we all know what happened in 65, 71, 85 and 99. The army’s mis-adventurism cost us dearly. When has army protected this country? Even today, Tali9ban can come and go as they please, with army coming up the excuse that borders extremely porus and other excuses. So if they can’t do their job why bother keeping them. Indeed we have sacrificed more than enough for them and its time to stop. Also the current elite has not gone for grabbing power because it is well aware of the entangled mess they have left. As soon as economy sets into equilibrium once more they will be unleashing their fangs, in facts they have already started to.”
I don’t know who is getting emotional. War of 65 was fought well by the army, and i think it was misadventure of many people if it was so, 71 was a tragedy again happened because of army head and politicians, 85 was so so and 99 was a stupidity of politicians and fake commando!

“Again, if that is the case, why does the same logic not apply when you are critcizing the current government? Plus once again we got one big blood suckiing leech the rest are mere mosquitoes in comparison.”

Of course current govt. is also doing strange things but army has hugely changed positively i suppose. Don’t underestimate those so called mosquitoes which can cause Dengue fever!

“There is a line and when the line is crossed your silence becomes criminal. Example, Sherry Rehman, Aitzaz Ahsan etc openly disagreed with Zardari on judiciary as it was not a trivial matter. With not a single officer resigning, it shows how corrupt they all are, they are supposed to stay united for protecting this country and its constitution not destroying it.”

Don’t mix army with political setup especially with Zardari group who are doing politics on graves to fill their pockets! Our army is a disciplined, sound, patriotic and energetic institution! As i said that they are not allowed to disobey except in extraordinary conditions and i feel there might have been some such occasions at the time of Musharraf where he must have been strongly stopped! Those two resignations were not because of judicial matter rather there were many other factors too i suppose! Secondly, Zardari sahib did not show any shame at those resignations, he is still doing all corruption. And it is very much possible that army officers did not resign and stayed united for the sake of country and constitution! I think, however, it was extremely shameful that Pakistanis were handed over to other countries in Musharaf time and they bowed to USA and Co.! It is big shame for our agencies and institutions!

“Wow! There’s this thing called international diplomacy. Today’s government has so far not succeeded in resolving the matter but it has created hue and cry which has been much more effective than any thing past government did.”
and that big thing is being done by the big international corrupt who is slave of international powers! Oh yah, send one video of their hue and cry, was it recorded privately! and also please send me report of its effectiveness!

“Firstly if Fazlullah is and Mehsud was Taliban then why would you say that the Taliban’s name was being misused? And kindly make a comparison once more, the two ineffective operations in Swat during army rule and one during this government, had army done the previous ones with the same effort we wouldn’t have needed the third one. Plus the way army handled the entire issue during their tenure was a fiasco, and hence the resulting violence.”

Of course, these two are not the only players there are many others and it is still possible that couple and others were playing in the hands of others! and it is quite possible that Taliban were being used as screen saver. Sawat has not been any easy matter, it is complex! Why first two operations were not that effective? May be they were not planned or done well due to whatever factors! and third one was effective, it could be also because of first two experiences or other factors! There is possibility of mistakes by army in case of Sawat operation but again it was not at all an easy case!

“Islamabad got a DHA, they stole thousands of acres on Super Highway Karachi to build Phase 9 and 10 and Lahore DHA got few phases added to it self.”
I don’t have any information about DHA thing! What is going on in it, who are the stakeholders, is it legal or legal, is it moral or immoral? i can’t say, better ask the concerned authorities.

“When you are ruling you are supposed to correct the mechanism but if every institution where by it is possible to make money has to be a retired officer its more then just merit. By occupying embassies I mean the fact that many serving and retired officers were appointed to hold diplomatic posts in Pakistan’s missions all over the world. Also I would like to correct that they fight for Islam and Pakistan. Sir they are paid to do that but they don’t fight at all, they surrender in front off Indians and crush Pakistanis be it Balochistan, Okara farms, lakes of Sindh or the infamous Lal Masjid and so on.”

There can be some posts where retired officers are more suitable than others so they should be posted there! Firstly it is not illegal to have ambassadors/diplomats from retired army officers if selected on merit! secondly, how many are there such diplomats? Statistics! I personally strongly believe that our army fights for Islam, Pakistan and Pakistanis and it is Pakistan Army and people of Pakistan who have given so many sacrifices for Islam and Pakistan! Army lost its top officers and many soldiers in current wave of violence!
Well, army does need to handle anti-Pakistan forces within Pakistan but i think at times they made grave blunders especially in some cases of Balochistan and above all in Lal Masjid. Lal Masjid incident was a pure successful conspiracy to bring army and nation in confrontation and to demoralize army!

Ithink Jennifer is right, our army had been the biggest political party in Pakistan with no vote bank and they have always been busy destablsing political government.
The have always started war with india and yes always lost. They had conscientiously made a decision to seperate east pakistan in order to hide their real role in east pakistan as they are doing now in Balochistan.
(Please google and read Hamood-u-rehman commission and you will have a gist of our Army;s role)
I believe that we have no threat or danger from india or anybody else if our army stops bothering them.
please think, we had been fooled by our Army since Ghulam Mohammad, regime. one last request that please study”EBDO” elective body disqualification order and you will know that the corruption which is associated with politians was never at all as much as it had been propgated.

“They have ruled the country for past eight out of ten years.”
That is true but one can’t blame only army for that. Our politicians, religious people and also judiciary have been part of the problem! I am always opposed to army rule.
The question remains who is the biggest blood sucking leach? The rest of the three while abetting the army in various times do not even come close. Plus while the army had weapons the judges and politicians do not.

“During their tenures they make it a point to grab all the prime lands and declare them cantonments, examples include the parking area of National Stadium Karachi, hundreds of acres of land along Shahrah e Faisal and Super Highway in Karachi and land adjacent to Gwadar port.”
I think you have not visited Karachi, however, to ensure you that this is not an exaggeration I’ll ask you to look these issues up in archives of the daily Dawn. These are prime land, given to army at throw away prices or even in some cases like National stadiums parking lot ex army officer Tauqir Zia ‘gifted’ it to the army.

“They destroy civilian institutions, spend more money on cantonments forcing many to shift to those localities because of inadequate facilities in civilian areas.”
Again you lack the proofs although there might be some truth in that but it is talk in the air! By the way, it is not army who destroyed all civilian institutes, there are enough others to do that!

Make a comparison sir! Our hospitals, airlines, power systems, railways etc were in much better conditions when Nawaz Sharif was over thrown. With absolute power army should have done wonders but as far as Karachi’s major hospitals are concerned they plummeted to a new low under the army rule, as did PIA, railways etc despite the shady deals of purchasing locomotives from China and Boeing 777′s. When you rule you are responsible, especially when you have taken it illegitimately.

“If they cannot protect the borders and cannot resist power then they should resign and go home.”
Good suggestion though i disagree! They have been protecting the borders, if not then who has been doing that? If they go home then who will do that protection job? You are forgetting that it took so many efforts, sacrifices, resources and time to built Pak Army and now you are coming with golden ideas! Current elite of army did not go for the power grabbing although current government is one of the most pathetic, incapable and corrupt! As i said i am always opposed to army rule.“We will be much better off without them.”This is just an emotional and empty idea!

Now now Sir, who is being emotional here, we all know what happened in 65, 71, 85 and 99. The army’s mis-adventurism cost us dearly. When has army protected this country? Even today, Tali9ban can come and go as they please, with army coming up the excuse that borders extremely porus and other excuses. So if they can’t do their job why bother keeping them. Indeed we have sacrificed more than enough for them and its time to stop. Also the current elite has not gone for grabbing power because it is well aware of the entangled mess they have left. As soon as economy sets into equilibrium once more they will be unleashing their fangs, in facts they have already started to.

“It is their fault Pakistan is going through this unending terrorism in the first place.”
It is not their fault only, our politicians, bureaucracy, religious people, judiciary, intellectuals, landlords and others have been part of problems of Pakistan we are facing today. By the way, it is mainly task of police to stop unrest in the country but police so ineffective so army had to do the job.
Again, if that is the case, why does the same logic not apply when you are critcizing the current government? Plus once again we got one big blood suckiing leech the rest are mere mosquitoes in comparison.

“Not one officer of worthy designation resigned during Mush’s eight year rule,”
This is something which might have happened but it could have been a very dangerous move though as in army it is quite important to obey the orders otherwise people will keep on creating divisions! Here too, our nation too did not show courage against Musharraf.
There is a line and when the line is crossed your silence becomes criminal. Example, Sherry Rehman, Aitzaz Ahsan etc openly disagreed with Zardari on judiciary as it was not a trivial matter. With not a single officer resigning, it shows how corrupt they all are, they are supposed to stay united for protecting this country and its constitution not destroying it.

“Indians built consulates and they kept mum,”
I think it was not our job to stop them in Afghanistan! It is not always possible to stop or counter all the things. Even today, our so called democratic government is silent or ineffective at this issue and at many other issues.

Wow! There’s this thing called international diplomacy. Today’s government has so far not succeeded in resolving the matter but it has created hue and cry which has been much more effective than any thing past government did.

“Taliban turned against Pakistan, started killing thousands and they kept mum,”
It is not true that all Taliban turned against Pakistan! There were many forces who have been involved in this killings of Pakistanis. Taliban and their name was used as front otherwise behind them were others! But army did do operation against those elements, whosoever they were, and now that wave of bombings/killings has come to minimum as a result.
Firstly if Fazlullah is and Mehsud was Taliban then why would you say that the Taliban’s name was being misused? And kindly make a comparison once more, the two ineffective operations in Swat during army rule and one during this government, had army done the previous ones with the same effort we wouldn’t have needed the third one. Plus the way army handled the entire issue during their tenure was a fiasco, and hence the resulting violence.

“they were too busy building DHAs all over the country,”
another exaggeration and effort to connect things in illogical way.
Islamabad got a DHA, they stole thousands of acres on Super Highway Karachi to build Phase 9 and 10 and Lahore DHA got few phases added to it self.

“getting contractual jobs in government institutions, occupying embassies and consulates. They are paid to protect us not the other way around.”
I have some reservations though for current rise in salaries of army officers by 15%, it seems to me a kind of bribe by the government and our poor nation can’t afford much right now. Well it is no crime to get jobs in government institutions if done on merit and fairly, and don’t forget that now most of army officers have been pulled back from the civilian posts! What do you mean from occupying embassies and consulates?
Firstly, they don’t fight for money as highest goal rather army does its job for the sake of Islam, country and its people! Secondly, they are not our employees rather are our sisters and brothers!
I don’t mean here that all what army has been doing is right, people in army are also human beings but it is not fair to put all blame on them or to try to malign them based on one sided picture or try to disgrace them or efforts to undermine their sacrifices! Pakistan army is the most disciplined, patriotic and dedicated institution of Pakistan.

When you are ruling you are supposed to correct the mechanism but if every institution where by it is possible to make money has to be a retired officer its more then just merit. By occupying embassies I mean the fact that many serving and retired officers were appointed to hold diplomatic posts in Pakistan’s missions all over the world. Also I would like to correct that they fight for Islam and Pakistan. Sir they are paid to do that but they don’t fight at all, they surrender in front off Indians and crush Pakistanis be it Balochistan, Okara farms, lakes of Sindh or the infamous Lal Masjid and so on.

“To C hussain and others defending army as usual, I do not blame army out of habit.”
Everybody is free to criticize anyone.

“They have ruled the country for past eight out of ten years.”
That is true but one can’t blame only army for that. Our politicians, religious people and also judiciary have been part of the problem! I am always opposed to army rule.

“During their tenures they make it a point to grab all the prime lands and declare them cantonments, examples include the parking area of National Stadium Karachi, hundreds of acres of land along Shahrah e Faisal and Super Highway in Karachi and land adjacent to Gwadar port.”
This seems to be pure exaggeration that army grabbed all the prime lands! Firstly, the places you have mentioned are not the all the prime lands of Pakistan. Secondly, where are the proofs for your claim? Thirdly, it is very much possible that army needed some areas for their strategic requirements! Fourthly, in the time of Musharraf, he tried his best to corrupt army and it is very much possible that he did go out of the way in this process!

“They destroy civilian institutions, spend more money on cantonments forcing many to shift to those localities because of inadequate facilities in civilian areas.”
Again you lack the proofs although there might be some truth in that but it is talk in the air! By the way, it is not army who destroyed all civilian institutes, there are enough others to do that!

“If they cannot protect the borders and cannot resist power then they should resign and go home.”
Good suggestion though i disagree! They have been protecting the borders, if not then who has been doing that? If they go home then who will do that protection job? You are forgetting that it took so many efforts, sacrifices, resources and time to built Pak Army and now you are coming with golden ideas! Current elite of army did not go for the power grabbing although current government is one of the most pathetic, incapable and corrupt! As i said i am always opposed to army rule.

“We will be much better off without them.”
This is just an emotional and empty idea!

“It is their fault Pakistan is going through this unending terrorism in the first place.”
It is not their fault only, our politicians, bureaucracy, religious people, judiciary, intellectuals, landlords and others have been part of problems of Pakistan we are facing today. By the way, it is mainly task of police to stop unrest in the country but police so ineffective so army had to do the job.

“Not one officer of worthy designation resigned during Mush’s eight year rule,”
This is something which might have happened but it could have been a very dangerous move though as in army it is quite important to obey the orders otherwise people will keep on creating divisions! Here too, our nation too did not show courage against Musharraf.

“Indians built consulates and they kept mum,”
I think it was not our job to stop them in Afghanistan! It is not always possible to stop or counter all the things. Even today, our so called democratic government is silent or ineffective at this issue and at many other issues.

“Taliban turned against Pakistan, started killing thousands and they kept mum,”
It is not true that all Taliban turned against Pakistan! There were many forces who have been involved in this killings of Pakistanis. Taliban and their name was used as front otherwise behind them were others! But army did do operation against those elements, whosoever they were, and now that wave of bombings/killings has come to minimum as a result.

“they were too busy building DHAs all over the country,”
another exaggeration and effort to connect things in illogical way.

“getting contractual jobs in government institutions, occupying embassies and consulates. They are paid to protect us not the other way around.”
I have some reservations though for current rise in salaries of army officers by 15%, it seems to me a kind of bribe by the government and our poor nation can’t afford much right now. Well it is no crime to get jobs in government institutions if done on merit and fairly, and don’t forget that now most of army officers have been pulled back from the civilian posts! What do you mean from occupying embassies and consulates?
Firstly, they don’t fight for money as highest goal rather army does its job for the sake of Islam, country and its people! Secondly, they are not our employees rather are our sisters and brothers!
I don’t mean here that all what army has been doing is right, people in army are also human beings but it is not fair to put all blame on them or to try to malign them based on one sided picture or try to disgrace them or efforts to undermine their sacrifices! Pakistan army is the most disciplined, patriotic and dedicated institution of Pakistan.