LalBichoo
Blocked
ISLAMABAD: History was made as the National Assembly approved the 18th Amendment with a majority vote on Thursday, paving way for the NWFP to be renamed as Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.
Two hundred and fifty-eight MNAs voted to repeal the 17th Amendment and the legal framework order of the Musharraf regime at the NA session today..........
and the point is :
what our public is getting out of it?
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) Why has the '18th Amendment' not been published in public domain, yet ?
(2) What are people of Pakistan going to get out of it ?
Every step forward should be appreciated with optimism.
A reactionary phobia could prompt so many questions such as,
1. What our public got after creation of Pakistan?
2. What we got after restoration of Democracy?
3. What Pakistan achieved after assembling the Nuclear Bomb?
4. What we got after the restoration of Judiciary?
5. What public would get after the weddings of Shoaib Malik and Sania Mirza?
An optimist would take all such developments as evolutionary stages for the reconstruction of a progressive social structure.
Very good news indeed. Lets hope for a positive outcome.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
1973 constitution was passed, yet;
(a) it as soon as it passed with consensus, it was abrogated
(b) to-date no one governing/ruling over Pakistan has adhered to it
So, what's new with 18th Amendment ?
What good is the law of the land, if it is;
(a) not adhered to ?
(b) not implemented in letter and spirit ?
LalBichoo
Blocked
"""Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) Why has the '18th Amendment' not been published in public domain, yet ?"""
>>>>
Full text of 18th amendment bill !
You can download the 18th amendment bill through the following link:
http://****.org/****/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/report_constitutional_18th_amend_bill2010_020410.pdf
Dear Mr. LalBichoo,
I am impressed by the precision of your research work.
That's what I was looking for.
Your input, mostly, is very informative and academic.
LalBichoo
Blocked
@JS Sb,
Thanks a lot Sir !
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
I am not impressed.
M.AKRAM KHAN NIAZI
Member
New name of NWFP is causing so much instability,but the rubber stamp Parliament is a slave of most Corrupted dictator of world Mr.Zardari and most foolish Dicatator of Pakistan Mr.Nawaz Shareef.
achtung
Member
haris bhai
qwaneen mein tabdili majmooi qoumi mafad ki khatir ho rahi hy. merey ya aapke impress honey ki iss mei koi hasiat nahee hy.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@achtung: Has 1973 constitution been adhered to, since it was created ?
every action can be judged through action and intention behind it ...
if somebody is giving swing machines just to publicize him as a social worker in public ,if some one is praying just to show off himself as a religious person,if some one is helping others out but in their wrong deeds .
what do u call it ?
giving swing machines is not wrong but the intention behind was...
praying is a great thing but if its for Dikhawa ,its wrong.
helping others out is a good thing ,but helping in wrong deeds is bad ...
same goes for 18th Amendment .
its intention ,more than action which counts . in my view at least....
* Allama Iqbal intended, Mohammad Ali Jinnah acted,
* Bhutto intended, Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan acted,
# Zardari intended, it is up to the People and Parliament to act.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Beenai: USA/Europe/Jews/IMF is giving us aid, but in reality, we/Muslims are subsidizing their rich, luxurious life.
Would you consider 'aid' from them or anything else from them as a good omen, in such a scenario ?
They are looting us with both hands. We are acting blind to it. In-fact we have been acting blind to this since the last century. This looting continues! today, and threatens to continue to go on and on like this in the future.
@javedsheikh: Javed sb. Zardari is going to use 18th Amendment as a plus point to deal a crippling blow to judiciary. He has no intentions of implementing what is in 18th Amendment.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
I found this article on another forum. I'd like to invite discussion on this. I am looking for a link to it;
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This is an excellent article regarding the concurrent list and what its abolition wont do anything for provincial autonomy, this govt. is a bloody joke and treats its constituents as such:
Are you current with the concurrent list!
With the concurrent legislative list set to be abolished by the 18th Amendment, provincial autonomy will be enhanced — at least that’s the claim of the parties championing maximum autonomy for the provinces.
But will it? Let’s start with the basics.
What’s a federation? For our purposes, it is enough to describe it as a multi-tier system of government: there is a centre, Islamabad, and there are constituent units, the provinces. The opposite is the unitary state, where, as the name suggests, there is only one tier of government.
The immediate question when you have two tiers of government: who does what? The smallest federal government is, theoretically, limited to defence, currency and foreign affairs; the largest could be, well, everything, leaving only a handful of local issues to the provincial governments.
On to ‘concurrency’. Of the 25 federal countries in the world, most have an area of legislation where both tiers of government have the competence to legislate.
Why? Over to Wasim Sajjad: “In some areas, it has been found useful to keep the power (to legislate) with both tiers. One reason is uniformity: all parts of the country can have, for example, the same environmental law. Another reason is to provide a ‘lead’ to the provinces; we don’t yet have all the competencies at the provincial level that are available at the federal level.”
The 1973 Constitution enshrined 47 subjects in the Concurrent Legislative List. The 18th Amendment will abolish that list.
Here’s a sample of what the list contains: “5. Marriage and divorce; infants and minors; adoption”; “6. Wills, intestacy and succession, save as regards agricultural land”; “17. Arms, firearms and ammunition”; “24. Environmental pollution and ecology”; “25. Population planning and social welfare”; “42. Tourism.”
Going through the list of 47 subjects, it is difficult to find anything that would unambiguously enhance provincial autonomy if legislative control were to be handed over exclusively to the provinces.
Even if you consider the bigger ticket items (for example, “trade unions; industrial and labour disputes”) it is not clear what differences Sindh, Balochistan or NWFP have with Islamabad’s prescribed laws.
So why demand the abolition of the concurrent list?
I asked Kaiser Bengali, who is in favour of the list being abolished. He suggests the reason is the smaller provinces are wary of an ever-growing federal government that has used the concurrent list to expand its reach and size.
The explanation is echoed by Zain Sheikh, a constitutional law lecturer in Karachi, who also supports abolishing the concurrent list: “Unless some (federal) ministries are shut down, the whole exercise would be futile.”
It seems that the fear of a big, powerful, overreaching federal government has driven political parties from the smaller provinces to do the only thing that seems obvious: cut its powers. Whether abolishing the concurrent list will in fact enhance provincial autonomy appears to be beside the point.
But such logic incenses Asif Ezdi, a former member of the foreign service, who claims that the “great gift of a single legal system” the British had given us is being thrown away for “dubious political gains”.
“The federal government may not even shrink much,” according to Ezdi. “At most federal ministries like labour, health and environment may now be disbanded.”
Wasim Sajjad isn’t even sure that will happen: “Remember there is still the federal capital territory and in any case the federal government will need to interact with foreign governments and agencies on these issues.”
But even if Ezdi’s and Sajjad’s predictions are confirmed, what’s the harm in giving the provinces the exclusive right to legislate over the 47 subjects in the concurrent list?
Let’s go back to entry 5 in the concurrent list: marriage and divorce; infants and minors; adoption.
Consider the hypothetical marriage in Quetta of a woman from Karachi and a man from Peshawar. With marriage to become a provincial issue, each province could have its own laws governing the institution.
So which province’s law would apply to the couple and could the bride and groom reasonably be expected to understand the differences? The consequences could be severe: imagine a scenario in which a conservative provincial government has overhauled marriage laws that will impact women adversely.
Wasim Sajjad pointed out it makes no sense to have five legal systems (one each for the provinces and the centre) or five regulatory authorities for medical licences.
In a nod to this, the Raza Rabbani committee has all but conceded a ‘soft’ concurrent list of sorts.
Article 142(b) will, after the 18th Amendment, read: “Parliament and a Provincial Assembly shall have power to make laws with respect to criminal law, criminal procedure and evidence.”
Criminal law, criminal procedure and evidence are entries 1, 2 and 4 in the concurrent list, so after the list is abolished the country could have had five separate criminal law codes, criminal procedures and evidence laws. The new Article 142(b) will prevent that absurdity.
Similarly, some concurrent list issues (“legal, medical and other professions”; higher education standards; etc.) have been ‘rescued’ from the provinces exclusive domain by putting them under the Council of Common Interests.
Kaiser Bengali went further: “Devolving environment is not a good idea. Maybe the four provinces will have to pass resolutions asking the centre to continue overseeing this area.”
So why argue for the wholesale abolition of the concurrent list when it clearly makes more sense to leave some things in there?
The answer lies in the negotiating process: “Item by item there would never have been an agreement,” said Kaiser Bengali.
So there you have it, the end of an institution that everyone seems to think was a good idea legally, but somehow its abolition became a rallying cry for provincialists and will now be ritually sacrificed by the 18th Amendment.
“Provincial autonomy is all about control over resources and more finances and revenues for provinces,” argued Wasim Sajjad. “The concurrent list has little to do with any of that.”
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I am very skeptical about this amendment till it actually become a part of the pakistani Constitution. Although I am a die hard opponent (ex Jiyala) of PPP now, I will still credit to Zardari Maddari to agree (though I still doubt that he willingly wanted to do this.. lol) on this historical reform.
I will also applaud Zardai for dealing with the opposition and make these spineless politicians a completely impotent creation of Pakistani Politics. Never thought that Zardari can deal with these Goons like Nawaz, Shahbaz, Qazi, Maulana Diesel, Altaf so efficiently.
Anyway… Congratulations to all Pakistanis. I hope one day we break the ethnicity and linguistic barriers and get rid of all the corrupts of pakistan (Political and civilian) either through ballot or bullet but really soon. Ameen
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@KHAN_Sahib: Efficiently ?
(sarcasm) You'll be surprised! at how 'efficient' Mr. Zardari is, when you'll get awareness of reality. (/sarcasm)
P.S. Do I detect pride in favour for a known criminal ? I find that disconcerting.
Far be it from people of NWFP to not yearn for taking side of criminals, *sigh*
@Haris khan..
try to google phrase, "Read between lines" I was not expecting that from you but guess after seeing Qazi sahib's name you lost it. LOL
If I could get rid (Physically) from 5 People in Pakistan, they will be Altaf, Zardari, Rehman Malik, Nawaz, Maulana Diesel... So you can imagine the love for zardari!
As regards to Zardari's efficiency, he may not be good in anything but corruption, but he managed to get in and stay in President house for so long despite NAWAZ, QAZI, SHUJAAT, IMRAN as his opponent... Give credit, where its deserving....
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@KHAN_Sahib: (1) Zardari has managed to stay in office, because we/the people have allowed him. Why ? Because we want to adhere to the law of the land. Not, because Mr. Zardari is efficient or clever or cunning or etc etc.
The only way of getting rid of criminal, traitor leaders is to adhere to the law of the land, so they don't get any chances to claim they were mis-treated when they are caught and held accountable for their deeds.
(2) There's too much to be done that these people are not doing.
Some of which I have already posted on other threads
@Haris Khan,
If I had the following of Qazi and Imran or Nawaz, I would have brought a REVOLUTION in 7 Days with elimination of all the corrupt politicians of Pakistan. ANd do you know the reason, why I can and they can't? Because, I am not afraid of dying and I love ISLAM and PAKISTAN more then these leaders love $$$ and their sad lives.
gv
Member
@khan sahib
well why don't you go back and start a political party if you're so committed?
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@KHAN_Sahib: I have no reason to believe, any member of JI ever took $$$ from USA.
Lifestyles of none of members of JI corroborates with you'r allegation(s).
In-fact JI does Rs. 3 billion worth of welfare work for people of Pakistan, each year, with money that people of Pakistan donate to them.
They don't need $$$.
They are trusted by people of Pakistan, with their money.
@GV,
You really think that I am the only loyal and committed person? I know few hundreds but in a nation where Zardari, Nawaz and Altaf gets into power through so called ballot paper, our hope only lies in bullet... Unfortunately we don't have access to that kind of force.... YET!
SufiSoul
Member
18 amendement mubarak ho..........zardari ka jana mubarak ho..
gv
Member
@khan sahib
no but most of them don't make empty threats from the safety of their computer screen.
i agree with your synopsis but big talk doesnt get us anywhere..
@Haris... I wont get into this discussion but sending your own kids abroad to study and ask others to go for JIHAD is Corruption.
Being the Head of the most powerful religious party, sitting and letting corruption flourish is part of Qazi's sins.
Asking to go for JIHAD while majority of the religious parties, like Maulana Diesel who are more interested in $$$ and then include them in the circle of religious parties?
In Afghan Jihad, even JI took money/Arms and were part of militia training accepted by Hameed Gul in the media...
For me, anyone who either supports, accepts corruption of zardari,nawaz,altaf,fazlu or ISI, and do nothing are equally corrupt!
@GV..
Do I really have to disclose what I am doing? LOL
I didn't realize that my criticism of Zardari, Altaf, Nawaz < Fazlu and Qazi will get you!!!!
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@KHAN_Sahib: (1) Qazi sb.'s son did take part, and did do his part in Afghan Jihad.
There's no corruption here. There's a heck lot of propaganda.
(2) What is wrong in Qazi sb. sending his children to study in foreign institutions ?
Qazi sb.'s son is not alone in getting education from foreign institutions. Hundreds of thousands of Pakistani people send their children to study abroad.
People of Japan, which was bombed by USA, sent their children to study in USA. What's wrong in it ?
Your point is invalid.
(2) JI doesn't collaborate, doesn't make coalitions based on fiscal deals. However, I have seen evidence that Mr. Fazl-ur-Rahman does
gv
Member
@khan sahib
your criticism is spot on... its your attitude which irks..i.e. if wishes were horses beggars would fly sort of talk doesnt provide any positive contribution...
Was Fazlu's Tanga Party in the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal??? a coalition of six religious parties consisting of the Jamaat-e-Islami (JI), Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam( Fazl-ur-Rahman Group), Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam ( Sami-ul-Haq Group) Jamiat Ulema-e-Pakistan, Tehrik-e-Jafaria Pakistan, Jamiat Ahle Hadith and a few more.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@KHAN_Sahib: Yes, he was.
Yes, he betrayed our people, our interests, be them individual or collective.
Yet, there's more here that you are not taking into consideration.
On internet, one can suggest, criticize, raise an issue! Obviously you can't kill, eliminate people on the net... But these days Media/net is powerful. If i can change 10 people's heart to become die hard pakistani muslim then I will be happy that i contributed to an extent through this portal.
As regards to doing something in reality, Alhamdullah, we are working on a smaller level. You can do your bits on a social level if you want too?
Haris, I am taking everything into consideration brother... But just like you, I am frustrated too and I am very very angry with all these leaders! I am not prepared to trust people who have betrayed ISLAM, Pakistan even once!
Do you give me a Guarantee that JI will never ever be friends again with Mulla Diesel and Co and will never sit with them again in some kind of collation?
achtung
Member
haris bhai. molvi aik doosrey ko dhooka kion deytey hein jabkeh unka maqsad aik hee hota hy?
doosra sawal abhi tak jawab talab hy keh kis ney kis ko dhooka diya?
skunkk
Member
I'm amused by the hypocrisy being demonstrated here and else where in media. If 18th amendment was so unnecessary all along than why was the media, jamaatis, muslim leagues and others insisting on it. Moreover they were unanimously saying that Zardari will not do it. Now when it has been passed the same persons fail to see any benefit out of it. Nawaz League, Imran Khan, Jamatis, Jang and Judges are truly shameless!
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@skunk: (1) JI thinks positive of this initiative. Yet JI tags it with a warning.
WARNING: Just making 18th Amendment into law of the land won't do any good for the people of this nation, it won't solve any problems.
Adhering to that law, implementing! that law will give people what they need/want.
When has any previous Govt., be it civil or military, ever adhered to law of the land i.e., constitution of Pakistan, since 1973 constitution was made or since Pakistan was created ?
(2) We however saw the program Mere Mutabiq that night, Perhaps last Saturday. In it, Mr. Shahid Masood talked of a curious ploy by Mr. Zardari in going forward with 18th Amendment. Hearing his words instantly sprung me back into vigilance mode.
According to Mr. Shahid Masood Mr. Zardari intends to use the good will he earns by bringing up 18th Amendment to use against judiciary, when his spat on NRO heats up in the coming days, in the court of law.
(3) Furthermore, some say, Mr. Zardari is trying to get rid of autonomy of Pakistan's judiciary from constitution of Pakistan through 18th Amendment
If Judiciary strikes down 18th Amendment, then that Mr. Zardari will blame/malign judiciary for it. He will try to claim innocence by saying, we were trying to do something good but judiciary doesn't allow us to work.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@KHAN_Sahib: For the moment, be it Qazi sb. or Ameer-JI, they have both ruled out any future coalition/collaboration with Mr. Fazl-ur-Rahman.
No, I can't promise anything. For, circumstances have a way of changing with time.
Ameer-JI have always said, we will work/struggle;
(a) according to the circumstances at hand
(b) in the best interest of the people, and
(c) to uphold the law of the land
Yes, I can promise one thing. JI will make coalitions that are in the best interest of our people. That may require us to bear nonsense of one man or his group for the welfare of the masses/many.
We have to make compromises, bear criminals or nonsense of a few, to look after the interests of the many.
The welfare of the many far! far! outweighs the crimes/nonsense of the few.
Even law in Islam is not static. It is NOT! blind in Islam. The law changes, it adapts to the circumstances a human being faces, the conditions one goes through, etc etc.
theimrannasir
Member
Should we be optimistic about this belated step forward? If this step based on good intention of Zardari, why it is too late?
Quote:
"why it is too late?"
We must be logical at out criticism.
Even a mother takes 36 weeks to deliver a baby.
Time, Space, Material, Methodology and Human Limitations cannot be overruled.
@Khan_Sahib
For me, anyone who either supports, accepts corruption of zardari,nawaz,altaf,fazlu or ISI, and do nothing are equally corrupt!
All rounded up so nicely.
18th amendment how and when it will be implemented we have to wait and see. Till now it is just words!
aftab arif
Member
NS should be really happy with the ban on becoming prime minister for 3rd time has been done away with, his daal-roti was hanging in the balance on this one issue.
They(politicians) won't deliver anything as the basic problem is that most of them are crooks, if they wanted to deliver governance they would have done that in the last 2 years but the results are there for all to see.
skunkk
Member
@ hariskhan:
Civilian governments have not only adhered to it but army and judiciary made it a point to kick them out simply by fabricating non-compliance.
@ rest:
your constant belittling of the fact that Zardari did pass it only shames you further. Most of people are so eager to belive some hidden motive that they have failed to understand the simple and most visible motive of Zardari and PPP.
PPP had suffered most because of 58(2)b and lack of provincial autonomy. Thus it wanted to resolve the matter. Also, some people have the audacity to quote Dr Shahid Masood whose all analysis so far have gone wrong, so much that he has now stopped giving deadlines.
People on this forum have also neglected the most far reaching aspect of the amendment i.e. the abolition of concurrent list. The step combined with NFC would mean that smaller provinces cannot blame Punjab like before. A single look on the name of topics should give you an idea that how this would strengthen federation.
tamaazkhan
Member
"the ban on becoming prime minister for 3rd time has been done away with"
has this really been done?
this is bad news, the ban discouraged the legacy/family type governments
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@skunk: You think they did adhere to it, eh ? Prove! it.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) Why is the 18th Amendment available at ****.org only ? Why is not available somewhere on Govt. websites or published in public domain, thus far ?
(2) How can I be sure, how can I ascertain, the file available on ****.org is legitimate document of 18th Amendment ?
skunkk
Member
@ haris khan:
Jurm saabit kiya jaata hai aur uss ke baad he begunaahi saabit ki jaati hai pehle nahi, ye PCO Iftikhar, gernailo, GEO, jamaatiyon aur muslim leagiyon ke bila zururat bakwaas se koi mujrim nahi hojata. Aap ilzaam lagatay hain tou gawah aur suboot laayay warna buhtaan laga ker gawah na pesh kerne se hudd ka itlaaq hota hai. Aur choonkay aap her waqt Islam ko hath-kanday ke taur per istimaal kertay hain tou thori si pairwi kerna bhi seekh lein.
And your Qazi Sahab has a copy, I thought he spoke for the entire terrorist community of Jamatis.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
My questions remain unanswered.
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