19th Amendment? to Remove 18th Amendment???

PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

19th Amendment? to Remove 18th Amendment???

(29 posts)

KHAN_Sahib
Member

Is this a Joke??? So despite giving up his powers, Zardari still have the power to sack the PM???? What a Joke!

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 4:10 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

IF Govt. was not up to something devious, why wouldn't they publish 18th Amendment on Govt. websites ?

Why is it hiding the document ?

There are many clause that I have come to know through talk shows, that tell me, 18th Amendment is a death trap. In it;

(1) they bar political parties to hold internal elections

This was mandatory in the past.

They are in-fact legalizing their family dynasty based rule over Pakistan, through 18th Amendment.

(2) they are creating a grey area in the constitution to give them maneuvering space for effectively ending autonomy/independence of Judiciary

(a) This is against Islam. Judiciary (justice system) is totally autonomous/independent in Islam
(b) This is against the spirit of the 1973 constitution

(3) etc etc

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 8:06 #
skunkk
Member

And after being shut up on the previous forum here Mr Hairs Khan starts again with his lies.

I think this is the third, yes the figure that comes after 2, also called teen in urdu, that any one can obtain a copy of the 18th amendment from NA or Senate secretariat.

As for the rest,

How many elections were held during the past five years with the Constitutional provision in place? There was no criteria i.e. Zardari could have gotten elected from CEC of the PPP which he himself nominated so the article was useless anyway,

Secondly, your usual Islamic argument which have nothing to do with Islam. Those Qazis that used to give verdict against Caliph Ali r.a? They were appointed in fact hand picked by them. So if there is any Islamic precedent which I do not believe there is since I do not think Khilafat has got anything to do with Islam. The Khalifa hand picks the Qazi.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 15:31 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@haris

I agree with you on this case that Musharraf rule on intra-party elections was a positive step , which should not have been removed.

But please quote from Quran and Sunnah where Islam decrees that:
'Judiciary (justice system) is totally autonomous/independent in Islam'

How can you say it is against ISLAM?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 16:49 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I said, judiciary is autonomous according to Islam.

When politicians remove autonomy of judiciary from constitution of Pakistan, through 18th Amendment, they are going against Islam, Islam's standards.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 18:13 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@skunk: There is nothing wrong in Khalifa hand picking Qazis', as long as he remains within the bounds of Islam.

It is the way of Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW). I take it as a standard.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 18:16 #
skunkk
Member

Nothing is wrong in Khalifa hand picking Qazis as long as he remains within the bounds of Islam?

The question is who should appoint Qazi which according to some faked up version of Islam known only to you is not the ruler or the executive.

The 18th amendment has distributed the power of appointing Judges, between executive and judiciary. If your version of Islamic precedent is to be followed they should be hand picked by the President or Prime minister without interference from Judiciary.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 21:27 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@skunk: In Khilafah system, since no Khalifah can go outside the boundaries of Islam, there is no concept of injustice, no concept of corruption, no concept of abuse of judiciary to gain favourible verdicts in the court of law.

Khalifah appoints Qazis' by subjecting prospective Qazis' to the most grueling tests to ascertain their;

(1) loyalty to ALLAH ALMIGHTY
(2) compliance to Islam
(3) compliance to Islam's standards of justice
(4) loyalty to Muslims
(5) etc etc

Khalifah never! appoint Qazis' based on personal whims or personal benefits. They appointed Qazis' based on Islam's prescribed standards. As a result, the chance of propagation of injustice was severely minimized to an insignificant level.

Islam's standards ensured autonomy to judiciary. You should read life history of Umar Khattab (RA, RAA). You will find numerous examples of how autonomous judiciary was in his (RA, RAA) era.

In contrast, in this era, we are not living under Khilafah system.

We are living under western democracy. In this system, to ensure 'autonomy' of judiciary, we have to keep the executive out of it.

Secondly, from experience of the past 60+ years, we know that executive has abused judiciary to favour their own selves, rather than to allow the justice system to impart justice to people of this nation.

Since Pakistan was created, to-date, executive has been held by feudal land lords. They have shown no regard for the law of the land. They continue to exhibit the same traits.

It is absolutely imperative, that judiciary have autonomy.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 22:59 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@haris

You said:
'There is nothing wrong in Khalifa hand picking Qazis', as long as he remains within the bounds of Islam.'

but this is contrary to your claim:
(a) This is against Islam. Judiciary (justice system) is totally autonomous/independent in Islam

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 0:00 #
skunkk
Member

lolz, you got haris in a fix tamaaz!

And haris even if a khalifah would have gone against Islam surely his handpicked Qazi would have been unable to give a fatwa against him if your logic is to be believed.

Just like today when PCO Iftikhar may give an occasional jab against army but otherwise he does nothing to stop army's corruption and atrocities.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 6:25 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@skunk: We have instances in Hadees, which clearly show Qazis' of the time of Khilafah did! give judgments against the Khalifah, as well as other members of power or prominence.

Those people set the best! standards of justice possible for/in this universe.

Your point about injustice in era of Khilafah is null and void.

The current justice system of Pakistan does not conform to Islam's standards. We the people of this country/nation need to struggle to bring it in conformance to Islam's standards. That is all I'm prepared to say at this point in time.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 6:58 #
choosy
Member

i hate this politics of jis ki lathi ,uski bhanse .
18th amendment has got nothing for public .
but all for bhanses .

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 7:15 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@haris
excellent propoganda type wording:
"That is all I'm prepared to say at this point in time."

Now call me agent of the JEWS!

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 15:03 #
haider3
member

tamaazkhan sahib, there's nothing personal about all these discussions. It's just a collection of views crashing against one another. No one ever said anything about anyone being an agent of the Jews. Though, of course, if one favours the West, one becomes that as well, automatically if indirectly. But, no, no. We'll not have a long argument about that as well.

About 18th Amendment, ex-AG has already said it will be declared anti-constitutional by the SC.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 16:56 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Mirza,

I have been accused in the past my Haris, for not being sincere to Muslims he has also called me a non-Muslim.

It has already been made personal, by this fellow who indluges in propogganda-speak and throws accusaion willy nilly aginst those who differ with his point of view.

I would not be this riled up, if instead of attacking my person, Haris was attacking my ideas.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 18:23 #
Migel9
Member

Death by Hanging to all these criminal uneducated brown inbred slaves, remnants of colonialist pigs left behind.

I recomend firing squad for the first born,onlw way to remove this cancer.Family run country will not survive.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 18:40 #
achtung
Member

yehi kutch jahil aur darinda sift mulla umar aur usama key pairokaroon kay liye bhi.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 20:11 #
skunkk
Member

Haris do you even read the crap you write?

Yes we have instances of every thing, and we have the instance of how Justice Sajjad Ali Shah handpicked by Benazir Shaheed gave a verdict against her.

You are constantly nullifying your own point, the fact is that even hand picked judges will sooner or later disobey their benefactors. History has proven this. Where as if judges keep on hiring judges they are only going to appoint those whom they know will hide their corruption.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 21:08 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@skunk: Tell me, if justice was being imparted in this country/nation as it should have been, then would;

(1) Pakistan be at the edge of a precipice today, dieing like it is ?

(2) the common man of Pakistan not have confidence in getting justice through the court of law ? Does he have this confidence today ?

(3) the common man of Pakistan be in as bad a shape as he is in, today ?

(4) the common Pakistani citizen be forced to commit suicide, be it individually or collectively with his family ?

(5) people of Pakistan be protesting on streets for lack of provision, lack of assurity of basic necessities of life ?

(6) etc etc

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 21:17 #
skunkk
Member

@haris:

Tell me if justice was being done during Khilafat why was there a rebellion against Hazrat Usman ra?

Who martyred him?

Why did the first and second fitna take place?

Why did Hazrat Aisha r.a and Hazrat Ali r.a foight in battle of the camel?

Why were three righteous caliphs murdered?

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 21:34 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@skunk: Rebellion against Usman (RA, RAA) was done by those who were hungry for power, those who were unjust.

Usman (RA, RAA) was advised of the circumstances of his death by Muhammad (SAW), before-hand as well as in-person.

I require research to answer these questions.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 21:41 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@skunk: Are you trying to prove to me, that we should not follow;

(1) Muhammad (SAW) ?
(2) Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW) ?

That there are better people to look upto, better standards available than which were set by the above people ?

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 21:44 #
haider3
member

tamaazkhan sahib - our solemn promise. You will not be attacked personally ever. Your person is sacred. Honest. Arguments take place here just on the basis of conflicting views. Nothing more. As for HK's asking anyone whether they are Muslim or not, he probably asks the same question of himself on waking up every morning. A tic of languague, I'd say. Not to take it too seriously, please.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 21:49 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: You claim justice system is not autonomous in Islam.

Why don't you prove your point by giving references from;

(1) Islam
(2) Quran
(3) Hadees-e-Qudsi (direct words of ALLAH), or
(4) Muhammad (SAW), or
(5) Hadees
(6) Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW)

?

Posted 2 years ago on 13 Apr 2010 6:24 #
Beenai
Moderator

constitution has been made the biggest joke in this country .
dictators and politicians has made it a football .
and cutting pasting has badly defaced the actual constitution .
and nobody is ready to take the charge to do anything about it.
its so unfortunate that PPP ,who proudly claims ownership of 1973 constitution ...has been leading the move to deface it more over ....

removing the election within the party ,equally satisfies all Parties needs of being there with the hold of a particular family ...
PPP is the jageer of Bhutto .
PMLN is the jageer of Nawaz .
ANP is the jageer of Wali Khan and family.
MQM is the jageer of Altaf Hussain.

public should NOT vote any of them any more .
they are no more public reps .
but reps of their families .
would work for betterment and goals of their families .

Posted 2 years ago on 13 Apr 2010 7:15 #
ali-pk
Member

@skunk
Rebellion against Hazrat Usman Ra' had nothing to do with injustice, had this been the case, we wouldn't have numerous Hadiths proving his innocence in the matter.

Posted 2 years ago on 13 Apr 2010 7:22 #
Achoota
Member

Question is if we bring Khalifah in Pakistan and Maulana Fazlurrehman becomes Khalifah what would happen?
Chalain aur change kartay hain...we give this opportunity to Haris Khan to suggesst a Khalifah from these relegious parties and tell us what kind of changes we should expect:)

Posted 2 years ago on 13 Apr 2010 7:32 #
ali-pk
Member

@Achoota
in case Khilafat comes in Pakistan than obviously it will totally replace the the present system with it's supporters including Jamaat'e Islami. obviously then the question of making Maulana FazalurRehman a Kahlifa will not arise.

Posted 2 years ago on 13 Apr 2010 9:13 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Fazl-ur-Rahman sb. has committed treason against us, too many times.

I believe, he is one of the beneficiaries of NRO, as well.

Posted 2 years ago on 13 Apr 2010 9:35 #