PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

A case against ’secular’ Pakistan

(38 posts)
  1. There are columnists in Pakistan that are pouring Sulphuric Acid into the foundations of the republic. We consider Mr. Nadeem Paracha as the 5th column in Pakistan. He recently wrote an article in dawn.com a reactionary paper with a declining readership and access to only a very small segment of the population. Dawn.com is a darling of the US.

    Here is our rebuttal to Mr. Paracha.

    Dear Mr. Paracha:

    We of course vehemently disagree with about everything you say. but we also will defend your right to say it.

    You can proffer your ideology–that is your right, but your ideas remain a minority point of view propagated by only the the editors of dawn.pk and the wannabe elite. Neither you , nor dawn.com has a popular mandate.

    What are your credential to write “history”. Your version of events in Pakistan are a dishonest representation of history and pushes “secularism” as a panacea for Pakistan.

    Secularism was not able to prevent the Gujarat riots in Bharat, the Holocaust in Germany, Colonialism, or the Spanish Inquisition in Spain. WW1 saw the murder of 15 million people in Secular Europe. In WW2 they again used secularism to kill 55 million including 6 million Jews. This of atrocities by secular Europe is long–the extermination of Native Americans, the Spanish Conquistadors, and the decimation of the Aborigines of Australia are glaring examples of the secular accomplishments.

    From 711-1492 Muslim Shariah Law ruled Al-Andulusia known as the golden age of the Jewish-Christian-Muslim symbiosis. Under Shariah law, Hasdai Shaprut ruled a Muslim country as Prime Minister for 30 years. These 700 years were the time of the nourishment of ideas, arts, painting, literature and science. Ibn Sena and Ibn Rushd and Ibn Khaldun wer nourished under the Shariah Laws. In fact after Isabelle and Ferdinand took over Cordoba, the Jews begged them to continue the Muslim laws. They were turned down, and Torquemada killed, and deported all of them—only to be rescued by the Ottoman’s of Istanbul who gave them refuge under Shariah Laws. The Jews still thrive there.

    Serbian secularists in the heart of Europe massacred the Muslims of Bosnia who didn’t even have mosques. When in Sarajevo I could not find a single mosque on Eid day. When asked “Mehmet” replied, we are Europeans. The Serbians taught them they were being murdered because they were supposed to be Muslim. Today the mosques in Bosnia are full of worshippers.

    Now let us look at the harbingers of democracy who broke away to form their own secular Bangladesh. Mr. Mujib right afer he returned banned all political parties, and declared himself dictator for life. He allowed the Rakhi Bahni to run the country. On 14th August, 1975 Bengali patriots killed the “dictator for life”, and buried secularism deep into the Bay of Bengal. Today the Chakma tribes of the Chittagong Hill tracks are up on revolt complaining against Bengali discrimination and human rights abuses–the same charges made against Pakistan by Mujib.

    Mr. Pracha–you site Zia’s rule. Isn’t it true that his punishment had nothing to do with Islam–in fact he used slogans to that he could perpetuate his rule–just like Allande, Pinochet, or Stalin. Mr. Zia was the darling of the West, and one never saw any criticism of him or his policies. In fact at the time the US, and 52 countries of the world supported the forefathers of the Taliban. Read the testimony of Congressman Rohrabaker who clearly said in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee “let me repeat, it was the US and the CIA that created the Taliban”. The US also created the “Mujahideen” who were invited to the White House and Reagan declared them Freedom Fighters. Of course the US left, and then blamed all evil on the Pakhtuns. However after their horrendous defeat in Afghanistan, they are once again talking to them, and you will see them in office in Kabul soon.

    The Taliban were bad–however after the “liberation” of Kabul–the condition of the women has worsened. Loya has written books on this and claimed that she had to leave Kabul because the condition of women under the Taliban was better than under Karzai’s secular Kabul.

    Your ideology of course is very popular in Bharat–as evidenced by the laudatory comments here.

    Mr. Paracha: You claim to support democracy–three times, the people of Pakistan have signed a contract with destiny and with each other–in 1956, 1962 and in 1973. Recently again in 2010 they once again changed 100 parts of the Pakistani Constitution. In each of these endeavors, Pakistanis have voted to be the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”. They could have changed this last week, but they did not.

    Pakistan is Islamic, Non-theocratic, and Non-Secular. This is the 1973 constitution and the will of the people.

    Jinnah did not want what you say he wanted. We can all argue about the legacy of Mohammad Ali Jinnah, but the fact remains that he wanted Pakistan for the Muslim–not for Zoroastrians. Obviously his Two Nation Theory (TNT) was a reaction to the Hindu version of the TNT which called for the expulsion and mandatory conversion (or as they called it reconversion) to Hinduism.

    You sir are on the fringe. Your Islamphobia is well known. You can continue your crusade against Islam, but you have little credibility, and Dawn.com has a declining readership. Dawn has never been able to get into mainstream Pakistan–or be widely read. You can continue to appease the Indian audience, but Pakistanis are not convinced that your version of history is the correct narration of events.

    Isn’t it true that its not about secularism or Islam–it is about people!

    You of course do not accept the peoples mandate.

    Your ideas seem Islamphobic and Anti-Pakistan reflecting the ideas of the worst Neocons in the US. May God show you the right path.

    Editor Rupee News

    http://www.rupeenews.com

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:04 #
  2. People that wrote the rebuttal read nadeem paracha but nadeem paracha does not read the rebuttal. What does that say?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:10 #
  3. toamin
    member

    good rebuttal on the face of paracha & his like minded worshipers of secular creed...

    @lota, how do you make this claim on behalf of paracha??

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:31 #
  4. LalBichoo
    Blocked

    """You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State."""

    Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
    August 11, 1947

    http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:41 #
  5. LalBichoo
    Blocked

    """We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State."""

    Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
    August 11, 1947

    http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:42 #
  6. LalBichoo
    Blocked

    """Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.
    Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. """

    Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
    August 11, 1947

    http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:43 #
  7. @salam
    @lota, how do you make this claim on behalf of paracha??

    Would you take my word if I told you a fairy told me? You missed the sarcasm in the post above.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:44 #
  8. toamin
    member

    discrimination or distinction between different ethnicities is dangerous, all ethnicities must live without discrimination as all came under the banner of islam for a Muslim State-

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:44 #
  9. all ethnicities must live without discrimination
    So no one has to wear the yellow badge?

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:47 #
  10. LalBichoo
    Blocked

    Pakistan’s Jinnah

    By Ayesha Siddiqa
    DAWN – Friday, 19 Feb, 2010

    Some time ago, I had a chance to read veteran columnist Ardeshir Cowasjee’s article ‘Bring back Jinnah’s Pakistan’ in which he talked about the founding father’s liberal vision for the country.

    Mr Cowasjee’s argument was that the state envisioned by Mohammad Ali Jinnah would have been governed by a different set of social norms than the one in place today.

    I would like to inform the respectable writer that while he is searching for Jinnah’s Pakistan, we might be threatened with the eventuality of losing Pakistan’s Jinnah......

    http://secularpakistan.wordpress.com/2010/02/19/846pakistn-jinnah/

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:54 #
  11. toamin
    member

    ethnicity means punjabi, balochi, punjabi, pushtoon, etc. ethnicity doesn't mean religion

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 8:58 #
  12. LalBichoo
    Blocked

    Are we discussing ethnicities here ???

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 9:01 #
  13. An ethnic group is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed- sharing cultural characteristics[1][2] This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

    religion is included.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 9:02 #
  14. toamin
    member

    religion is a bit of it but not byte itself... :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 9:12 #
  15. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic
    Main Entry: 1eth·nic
    Pronunciation: \ˈeth-nik\
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin ethnicus, from Greek ethnikos national, gentile, from ethnos nation, people; akin to Greek ēthos custom — more at sib
    Date: 15th century
    1 : heathen
    2 a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background <ethnic minorities> <ethnic enclaves> b : being a member of a specified ethnic group <an ethnic German> c : of, relating to, or characteristic of ethnics <ethnic neighborhoods> <ethnic foods>
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic
    eth·nic   /ˈɛθnɪk/ Show Spelled[eth-nik] Show IPA
    –adjective
    1.pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
    2.referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
    3.being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
    4.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
    5.belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.
    6.Obsolete. pagan; heathen.

    religion is coming up on every search.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 9:18 #
  16. toamin
    member

    secular is a product that is hard to sell in Pakistan so seculars try to use Jinnah or Iqbal or Johar or other leaders to deceive peoples of Pakistan

    they know that the moment they try to directly sell what they believe in, it would be rejected :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 9:41 #
  17. Dear Lota and LB

    I wrote this back in 2008 on pkpolitics. Again to refresh your memories

    Faarigh Jazbati Says:
    December 26th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    Slaam Everyone

    I dont understand why people in Pakistan are stuck what Jinnah said or what he wanted Pakistan to be. If you say that Jinnah was a true democrat then under democratic principle if people of Pakistan decided to be a theocratic or secular or nationalistic or fascist state then so be it. What Jinnah said becomes less relevant as under democratic principle it is people who decide what type of government or state they want to be.

    On a different note for Muslims it is not what Jinnah said or not said, IT IS WHAT Allah and His messenger SAW SAID. It is what type of government system or state system we are commanded by Allah and His messenger SAW.

    FJ

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 11:30 #
  18. jinah is nothing before the saying of Allah and true messegner

    i agree with the depth of my heart

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 11:37 #
  19. yahya
    Member

    Secular Pakistan is coming, like it or not. Everything else has failed. In fact the Islamists who demand "Islamic" system in Pakistan are so fond of secular systems elsewhere India, west etc. They would never want a Hindu, Christian etc system imposed in those countries. This hypocrisy by Islamists speaks for itself; they too want to be treated with respect and equality when abroad or in other countries but don't want to give the same respect and equality where they can. This on one hand shows Islamists to be primitive people who really belong to a century long past and who have no respect for anyone, and on other hand that secularism is the only system that can diminish religious conflicts globally.

    Islamists have consistently been rejected by Pakistani people as evident by results of successive elections, baring those where agencies helped Islamists underhandedly. JI candidates got their zamanat zabt in both Rawalpindi and Lahore, what more proof do we need?

    Those who consider Jinah's Pakistan Na-Pakisgan or a sin should never have come to Jinah's Pakistan in the first place but if they are here then they are welcome to leave any time, no one would miss them and would probably celebrate their leaving.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 12:56 #
  20. Secular Pakistan is coming, like it or not.

    lol, and why do you say that? Probably because f- ups like nawazish ali have their own shows on mainstream media? Well seems like that's probably what you've based your claim on, as I don't see people buying that secular crap at all.

    Islamists have consistently been rejected by Pakistani people as evident by results of successive elections, baring those where agencies helped Islamists underhandedly. JI candidates got their zamanat zabt in both Rawalpindi and Lahore, what more proof do we need?

    Well, JI/JUI are not 'thekay-daar' of Islam, if people reject them (as I do) that doesn't mean people don't want Islamic laws to be implemented in this country. In fact, that's exactly what the majority of Pakistanis want.

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 13:21 #
  21. zia m
    Member

    "'Your ideas seem Islamphobic and Anti-Pakistan reflecting the ideas of the worst Neocons in the US. May God show you the right path""

    I guess the author fails to understand neoconservatism, their ideology is very similar to the so called Islamists.They are against secularism and like to introduce religion in public sphere.
    Irving Kristol was the godfather of neocons.Here are some quotes from him this may help better understand Bush and his cronies the Neocons.

    "It is ironic to watch the churches, including large sections of my own religion, surrendering to the spirit of modernity at the very moment when modernity itself is undergoing a kind of spiritual collapse....[26]

    "Young people, especially, are looking for religion so desperately that they are inventing new ones. They should not have to invent new ones; the old religions are pretty good."[27

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Apr 2010 13:28 #
  22. Most of us are true muslims not against Islam but criminal activities of religous parties, hypocracy, madrissa culture and terrirism bt talibans have spread hatred amongst us.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 15:07 #
  23. wantinsaf
    Member

    Quaid e Azam and secular Pakistan?
    -----------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------
    If, by secular he meant that Pakistan is a state where the political, religious and economic rights of minorities would be preserved and taken care of by the Muslim majority government, than he is right, but if, like a state where literally secular means, religion or religious bodies should have no part in political or civic affairs or running public institutions, he is absolutely wrong as far as Pakistan is concerned. Secularism, in its true meanings is a Machiavellian, kabbalish Jewish invention of the 18 th century, whereby the nations, states and people were to be divided politically, economically and socially, in a bid to establish, the international government of freemasonry, illuminati and Rothschild ideology.

    Because religion could be (in its true revolutionary form) a hindrance in the consolidation and foothold of such chaotic dogmatism, it has no place in the political system as propounded by the Machiavellian outlook.

    The western democratic norms are one form of it whereby people are divided, segregated and isolated in groups and communities, with growing tendencies of hatred, aversion and a deceitful abhorrence leading to a hypocratic society where, though revolutionary, minority forces have no share in the state affairs. Because religion is the only binding force, for diverse races, with different cultural values, languages, attitudes, heritage, a political culture based upon religion does not suit to the absolute minority forces, yet ambitious like international Jewry.

    Ideas like nationalism, extreme right wing ideologies, National Socialism, the liberal centralism and political leftism have taken their birth from secularist principles in their extreme form, leading to secular extremism.

    EncartaAccording to the dictionary (Encarta Dictionary) the word Secularism has two meanings,

    1. Rejection of religion: the rejection of religion or its exclusion from a philosophical or moral system.

    2. Exclusion of religion from public affairs: the belief that religion and religious bodies should have no part in political or civic affairs or in running public institutions, especially schools.
    A Muslim, how ever staunch liberal he might be, but cant is secular at all. Because, as a Muslim, he or she has submitted his/her will to the laws of God, and on oath. Since Islam is a way of life, it encompasses all institutions of life and state like political, social, and economic. Once you are secular, you are no more Muslim, which is the foundation for one’s dogmatic belief, beyond rituality, and monasticism.
    Thinduhe creation of Pakistan is a direct consequence of the fascist, racist and Hindu extremist attitudes of RSS and Sangh Parewar who never believed in the rights of the minorities in India, and always tried to impose extreme Hindu ideology on the non-Hindu population of undivided India. Not only this but, the Sangh parewar came out to “Hinduise” the nonhindu population of India, with its staunch belief in hindutva and Hindu extremism. Even before partition, of united India, anti minority riots were common throughout the country in which tens of thousands of Muslims, Christians and dalits (low caste Hindus) died, which again highlights the filthy class system of the Hindu society, which even cant bear the existence of lower cats (schedule cast) Hindus.

    The main tenet of the hinduvtva philosophy embodies, targeting non Hindu minorities, especially Muslims, being the largest minority, their economics, lives, and property, so to crush them so much, as they should never rise again economically or politically. These riots still continuing in India, and with every riot the justification for the creation of Pakistan is further consolidated and proved.

    TAIMLhe chanakya, mentality behind hindutva, denies the right to exist of any minorities, because it is based upon, exploitation, denigration, molestation and harassment, extortion and exaction, all kinds of terrorism, torture and assassination tactics against the minorities, especially against Muslims, who the Hinduva deems its arch rivals. Since its inception in 1906, All India Muslim leagues were not a separatist party to begin with, but vowed to fight for the civic rights of the Muslims of India. But after the general elections of 1935, which brought the hindutva extremists powers forward to unveil their real face, and their real line of action harbouring Golwalkar’s hindutva and “Hinduisation” paradigm. Wth the triumph of hindutva forces in different states of India, Urdu was replaced with Hindi, gao-mata ‘s slaughter was declared illegal and all measures were take to implement the norms and cultural values of Hinduism and the minorities were coerced to adopt the Hindu way of life. That was the decisive moment when at last All India Muslim league decided to think about the concept of creation of states based upon the concept of Muslim nationhood.

    ABDULLAH HAROONSir Abdullah Haroon in 1938 propounded that the Muslim majority states of north west and east be freed as separate states from India and it was Rehmat Ali who gave these the name Pkaistan.But since he believed in many Muslim states, his doctrine of several Muslim states remains an incomplete agenda of creation of several “Pakistans” out of India, and not a single Pakistan. Geographically speaking, Kashmir is not the only part of incomplete agenda of partition of undivided India, rather it was Juna Garh, Assam, Hyderabad Dekkan, three eastern districts of state of Bihar, i.e. Bhagal Pur, Pornia, and Aara and Saharan Pur Division, Manadar which were included inside Indian boundaries despite their Muslim majority. Similarly parts of east Punjab and Bikaneer state, like Firozpur, zera, Batala, Ajnala, Jalandhar, etc. were included in India in order to pave the way for Indian occupation of Kashmir, wider hindutva strategic interests and to foment Kashmir issue, to seed permanent rivalry between the two states, and to future economic, educational, and social infrastructural devastation of the two newly born states.

    The important point is, Pakistan was not created on secular grounds. Secular means several nations, communities, linguistic and religious denominations that may or may not exist together, as a single nation. Whereas, the ideology of Pakistan is based upon two nation theory, i.e. Hindu and Muslim, are two different nations. This implies that all Muslims of India were one nation despite having different languages, cultures (based upon ethnicity) complexions, races., unlike Hinduism which believes in caste system and class system .

    Secularism never condones, one nation based upon common values, belief system and divine inspirations, instead, it divides nations in the name of freedom, liberty, and so called personal law, because it does discriminates its citizens based upon belief system. France, Germany and some other European states are examples where, despite there claim of being secular, the Muslim women, especially have to choose between their Islamic dress code or employment, education and even medical treatment.
    Quaid-e-AzamQuaid-e-Azam always, reflecting the inspirations of the Muslims of India, advocated for the creation of Pakistan on the basis of establishment of an Islamic, welfare republic. Where, the rights of minorities are equally taken care of, and speedy social justice be provide d to all. If Islamic ideology is deducted from the ideology of Pakistan, the main justification of its existence vanishes because India claims to be a secular state, i.e. only ideological grounds are valid for existence of a state like Pakistan, which was created for majority Muslims.
    Quad e Azam believed in the Islamic law as the constitution of the land of Pakistan and he considered Muslims as one nation, notwithstanding separate racial, linguistic entitites. He said on one occasion.

    “What relationships knit the Muslims into one whole, which is the formidable rock on which the Muslim edifice has been erected, which is the sheet anchor providing base to the Muslim Millat, the relationship, the sheet anchor and the rock is Holy Quran.”

    In his eyes Pakistan is to be a Muslim state where the rights of minorities would be preserved in the light of the sayings og Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and Quran.

    “Pakistan only means freedom and independence but Muslims ideology, which has to be preserved which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which w hope, others will share with us.”(18th June 1945,Adress to Frontier Muslim students federation).

    Quaid-e-Azam wanted to create an Islamic state in the form of Pakistan where Islamic law and code of conduct would be practiced in its true spirit.

    “We do not demand Pakistan simply to have a piece of land but we want a laboratory where we could experiment on Islamic principles.”(Address at Islamia College Peshawar 1946).

    Qauid e Azam, in the light of his speeches, was inspired from Islamic culture and history, like political system of Khilafate Rashida, and other Islamic era’s of enlightment, progress and splendid cultural norms.

    “India is not a nation, nor a country. It is a Sub Continent of nationalities.Hindus and Muslims being the two major nations. The Hindus and Muslims belongs belong to two different religions, philosophies, social customs and literature. They neither intermarry nor interdine and they belong to two different civilizations, which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects on life and of are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history.”(Presidential address at the annual session of Muslim League at Lahore in 1940).

    QA5On another occasion he said.

    “The Muslims are a nation by every right to establish their separate homeland. They can adopt any means to promote and protect their economic social, political and cultural interests.”
    Not only this, Quaide Azam, on 1st July 1948, in his address to state bank of Pakistan stressed Pakistani economists to develop an economic system based upon Islamic ideology and concepts. This was his most striking speech, which has been thrown to oblivion by the Pakistan’s naïve, sycophant, and westernized elite class, to hide qauid’s real ideological inspirations from the people of Pakistan He said,
    I shall watch with keenness the work of your Research Organization in evolving banking practices compatible with Islamic ideas of social and economic life. The economic system of the West has created almost insoluble problems for humanity and to many of us it appears that only a miracle can save it from disaster that is not facing the world. It has failed to do justice between man and man and to eradicate friction from the international field. On the contrary, it was largely responsible for the two world wars in the last half century.

    The Western world, in spite of its advantages, of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contended people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind.

    AO6JCOCAGOV6S5CADQQV9ICAYYZQCBCA0MM4NPCAALGFQ1CATR1CGYCATXOI2CCABF09VZCA66CKQ2CAX29T56CANA91WQCA6CAP07CA7XUD0MCANI90WFCAJDCE20CA5V2A1CCA9P6G2XCAJ3EU3R
    The advocates of secularism in Pakistan always refer to Mr. Jinnah’s 11 th august 1947 speech to constituent assembly, where Quaide Azam, shunned the observance of any kind of discrimination with minorities on the basis of religion.

    Now, that statement was made in the light of Prophet Muhammad ‘s code of conduct in the state of Medina, where the rights of minorities were equally taken care of by the prophet and his Kahlifas.So much so that even Jews and Muslims were equally treated by Islamic court of law in all matters of state, irrespective of their religion, but based upon the golden Islamic principles of justice.

    When Quaide says Muslims and Hindus would be equal politically in Pakistan, he meant that Islam entails political system too where all citizens are dealt equally according to their personal code of law, but this is possible only in a country where the state religion is Islam.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 17:02 #
  24. LiberalKarachi
    Member

    @UmeR,

    The only important point I found in that long rant was:

    "Jinnah did not want what you say he wanted. We can all argue about the legacy of Mohammad Ali Jinnah, but the fact remains that he wanted Pakistan for the Muslim–not for Zoroastrians"

    What exactly did Jinnah want? Lets look at his ACTIONS and not words - because actions speak louder and clearer than words. When Pakistan was made by Jinnah in 1947, he had the choice to install whatever type of system he wanted - whether theocratic, communist, democratic etc. His choice was obviously democratic and not the other two. Secondly, who did he make the law minister - the one ultimately responsible for law and legislation and eventually the constitution? The answer is Jogendra Nath Mandal - a Dalit HINDU. Now if that is not secularism then I don't know what is. Maybe our definitions of secularism differ.

    Lastly, Quaid-e-Azam always focused on the great Islamic values, such as honestly, tolerance and respect, which should be preached by all people, irrespective of whether secular or not.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 17:31 #
  25. skunkk
    Member

    The debate is going round and round in circles. The anti-secularists blame everything in Pakistan except probably Karokari, vani and honour killings.

    The debate is whether Pakistan shall be a secular country? So people read up what is secularism. We talk about separation of state and religion, why are you guys constantly considering it the french version.

    There are a number of laws in Pakistan that make minorities a second grade citizen and a number of laws that interfere with or enforce religion. Which should be repealed.

    Anti-secularists do not even have a proper consensus on what would be the system of government let alone other things. So stop criticizing what you call a secular system because you have been unable to propose an alternate system acceptable to all sects of muslims in Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 20:36 #
  26. SufiSoul
    Member

    There are a number of laws in Pakistan that make minorities a second grade citizen and a number of laws that interfere with or enforce religion. Which should be repealed........

    If these laws comes in the way of ISLAM than must be rejected and hit down..
    If not against ISLAMIC provisions than our constitution cannot keep laws,against ISLAMIC spirite/regulations......

    Its simple to understand and implement........

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 20:55 #
  27. SufiSoul
    Member

    Historical Quote from Salam,

    secular is a product that is hard to sell in Pakistan so seculars try to use Jinnah or Iqbal or Johar or other leaders to deceive peoples of Pakistan

    they know that the moment they try to directly sell what they believe in, it would be rejected :)

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    This time it is difficult let me say wajid(very) difficult....

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 20:57 #
  28. Wahid Doyum
    Member

    A case for true secular pakistan - no more madaris supported by the establishment to teach our kids suicide bombing.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 21:03 #
  29. SufiSoul
    Member

    Kashmir ki azadi tak..............secularism namanzoor.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 May 2010 21:05 #
  30. zia m
    Member

    The Kashmiris want an independent state.I fully support them in their cause, but we have to look for our own interst.
    Kashmiris will never vote to join Pakistan, we have set a bad example in the region.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 1:52 #
  31. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    Secularism is often used as a tool to deceive innocent minded masses of people. When Jinnah was questioned by somebody for his disliking secular congress members? He said,"scratch a secular congress member and find a Maha Sabai (member of a fanatic Hindu organization)". Jinnah's assessment was correct. Despite all claims by India as a secular country, it is indeed a Hindu country in every sense.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 6:08 #
  32. yahya
    Member

    If not against ISLAMIC provisions than our constitution cannot keep laws,against ISLAMIC spirite/regulations......

    Its simple to understand and implement........

    This is not as simple as that…if Islam is a bad religion which oppresses people as you keep trying to portray it to be then why do we need a system based on Islam? One tries to strife for good principles that bring about a just and fair society. Secularism aims to do just that. You have just given another boost to the cause of secularism. What you fail to understand is that any oppression that you support in the name of Islam goes against establishment of a religious system and in favour of an a-religious or secular system. As only then can we protect people from the oppression that some followers of some faiths are bent upon enforcing.

    In current age, Islamists are the biggest justification for secularism.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 7:41 #
  33. yahya
    Member

    @Hussain Farooqui: If reality in India were so bad you would see a lot of Muslim refugees in Pakistan. The reality is totally different and there are numerous Hindu and Sikh refugees from Pakistan residing in India. On the other hand there are numerous examples of successful Muslims in India.

    I would say let's start with what India has got; declare Pakistan as secular state and take it form there. That would be a good start.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 7:46 #
  34. toamin
    member

    what has india got? the biggest poor population of the world?

    what reality are you talking about, please share some facts, what parts of india have you visited/surveyed yourself, if any?

    pakistan is already much more advanced, but only need right leadership and direction :)

    they say about pakistan that is has got sophisticated guided missiles but misguided men!

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 8:00 #
  35. yahya
    Member

    India was ruled for many centuries by Mughal rulers and all they did was make castles and gardens and enjoyed themselves, with little care for development of ordinary people. Sub-continence as a whole is paying the price for that.

    Irony is that much of what we benefit from in Pakistan; Universities / colleges / schools, hospitals, rail, irrigation network, barrages, postal service, courts, civil service and so on or so forth was developed by Hindus and British; supposedly our worst enemies. Irony is that even our worst enemies did more for us then we do for ourselves. We are our own worst enemies.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 8:15 #
  36. toamin
    member

    lolzz.. your first para runs contrary to the history, check out the surveys written by british historians before their colonizations, they called india "golden bird", a jewel in the crown... etc etc, india was far more prosperous than europe, french, portugies, brits were fighting each other to gain trade rights with india... check history/facts my dear...

    you are right, sec-libs (mirza ghalib's term) are the worst enemies of this country who are neither accepted by europe nor by their own masses :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 8:20 #
  37. yahya
    Member

    lolzz.. your first para runs contrary to the history, check out the surveys written by british historians before their colonizations, they called india "golden bird", a jewel in the crown... etc etc

    A big economy does not mean that its inhabitants are rich too. In fact in significant economies like Brazil and India there are some of world's richest people around but a large proportion of population is quite poor.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 8:44 #
  38. toamin
    member

    yahya... for third time i am asking you to bring your evidence/fact :)

    compare that with before/after british colonization (study great bengal famine by brits or opium war against chinese)

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 May 2010 8:56 #

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