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A great Thinker.

(27 posts)

  1. shimatoree
    Member

    I am asked why I am endeavoring to interfere with the religious faith of others and why I try to take from the world the consolation naturally arising from a belief in hell.

    I answer-
    I want to do what little I can do to make my country truly free-
    I want to broaden the intellectual horizon of our people. I want it so that we can differ upon all those questions and yet grasp each others hands in genuine friendship.
    I want in the first place to free the clergy. I am their great friend. I want it so that every minister will be not a parrot, not an owl sitting upon a dead limb of the tree of knowledge and hooting the hoots that have been hooted for 1800 years. But I want it so that each one can be an investigator, a thinker and I want to make this congregation grand enough so that they will not only allow him to think but will demand that he shall think and give them the honest truth of his thought.

    Col Robert G. Ingersoll in Mistakes of Moses.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 4:50 #

  2. toamin
    member

    hey, you could have changed 1800 years to 1400 years and put your name underneath :)


    first and basic mistake of those who are looking for solution from european experience that muslims do not share same experience as europeans, those who take this comparison as their premise for logic are fundamentally flawed :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 4:57 #

  3. LifeH2O
    Member

    I read somewhere that Hazrat Ibraheem and others destroyed the idols not because hate against their religion (every is free to practice their religion) but to make them realize that these idols are nothing but piece of stones that can do nothing.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 7:47 #

  4. Revivalist
    member

    <FONT face=Calibri>Super imposition of European history over Islam is indeed a fatal mistake and a completely wrong paradigm.</FONT>

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 9:11 #

  5. Truthlover
    Member

    A belief that can't withstand simple questioning, is weak and needs to be strengthening. Knowledge is not enough to lead us to certainity but it does widen our horisons and help us see the things in new light. Religion should be a relationship between individuals and God and there aught to be as little interference of outsiders as it is possible.
    I'm aware that this statement would be rejecte dright away by those advocating a religious state that interferes and tries to control all auspect of life and human maneuvering but nevertheless I believe in human freedoms and think that state should stay away from our sets of beliefs.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 9:54 #

  6. Revivalist
    member

    @TL, ST,

    Islam must not be viewed through the eyes of European history or understood by fallacious references to Catholic intolerance and coercion. Rather, Islam and its history, must be viewed without a reference to historical or intellectual baggage that is specific to Europe. Superimposing a specific negative history to understand another world view is fallacious and only skews understanding. To really understand Islam, or any other worldview for that matter, it must be understood – as the Chinese put it – by “emptying your tea cup”.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 10:21 #

  7. Truthlover
    Member

    @ revivalist,

    No one tried to compare Islam with other world religions here, all we do is to talk about religious bigotary and entrapments in theological quagmires existing among religions. There is no harm in being open minded and inquisitive while reading the scriptures or trying interpreting the messages of divine.
    You suggest Chinese method and that entails exactly what we are telling, i.e. empty your tea cup and by doing that you are ready for the new filling.
    Islam is a great religion and it gives us beautiful principles to spend our lives in conformity with the commands of God but nevertheless it remains a religion, providing us a way and means to develop spiritually and establish a cotact with our creator. Islam doesn't recognise priesthood or some other kind of hierarchy that can govern and control our lives, so we should refrain ourselves from doing so.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 10:43 #

  8. shafiq12
    member

    Truthlover and Shimatoree

    See how u are astray from right path from rely the view of a person who don't believe in any religion.

    Some blasphemous views of Col Robert G. Ingersoll about religion

    Religion has been tried, and in all countries, in all times,has failed.    
     Religion has never made man merciful.     
    Remember the Inquisition.     
    What effect did religion have on slavery?     
    What effect upon Libby, Saulsbury and Andersonville?     
    Religion has always been the enemy of science, ofinvestigation and thought.   
      Religion has never made man free.     
    It has never made man moral, temperate, industrious andhonest.     
    Are Christians more temperate, nearer virtuous, nearer honestthan savages?     
    Among savages do we not find that their vices and crueltiesare the fruits of their superstitions?     
    To those who believe in the Uniformity of Nature, religion is impossible.                         
    Bank of Wisdom                 
    Box 926, Louisville, KY 40201 ===========================================
    Allah says in Quran

    O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitânah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses) if you understand.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 11:23 #

  9. Revivalist
    member

    TL, The problem with you guys is that you want to make Islam the way you want it to be. To understand Islam best we need to see the life of Muhammad (saw) and his Nobel companion (ra). Moreover, Islam is not a religion it’s a DEEN a way of life that encompasses all life affairs from politics to economic and from judiciary to foreign policy etc.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 11:27 #

  10. Truthlover
    Member

    Dear Super soldier,

    Why do you think that we are astray, is it because we request some answers from you regarding your assertions?
    Would you rather prefer a blind faith and trust in your words?
    We believe in our religion as well but try to be realistic, we don't want to fall prey of irrationality or of ignrance. We think that a healthy discussion opens the doors of higher perception. We believe that religion should remain our private matter and don't want the state to control all fields of life. We don't believe in perfect beings, who should be given charge of our lives. Through history we know that the power corrupts and therefore we refuse to expose ourselves to a religious state, just remember Papacy in middle ages. 

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 11:43 #

  11. shafiq12
    member

    Truthlover,

    A man never astray for right path, if he follow the right path, if u choose ur own thoughts than u will astray, If u follow the book of Allah u will not . I will tell u how, religion never made people ill or sick, it's the evil desires which make people sick, and solution for All that evil desires is Quran and that's why Allah send his prophets to guide mankind but man proved himself traitor he changed the words of Allah and try to impose his own views, The ultimate truth. I think this man never tried to find the Ultimate truth,

    Look at this great thinker (where is his great thinkness). He was insane. He used the word "all  religion". He didn't know that there is only one religion Islam, All other religion are false and man made. Indirectly he Insult the Allah subhana Tahalla.

    The origin of all religions, creeds, and sacred books, is substantially the same, and the history of one, is, in the main, the history of all. Thus far these religions have been the mistaken explanations of our surroundings. The appearances of nature have imposed upon the ignorance and fear of man. But Back of all honest creeds was, and is, the desire to know, to understand, and to explain, and that desire will, as I most fervently hope and earnestly believe, be gratified at last by the discovery of the truth. Until then, let us bear with the theories, hopes, dreams, mistakes, and honest thoughts of all.
    Robert G. Ingersoll.
    Washington, D.C.
    October, 1880

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 12:05 #

  12. Truthlover
    Member

    @Revivalist

    And problem with you guys is that you oversimplify and lack the tolerance for others opinions. You forget that we too are muslims just with different views. The trouble starts when one places all the eggs in the same basket. All political, economical, social and religious powers in the hands of one person or system give rise to a dictaor and honestly we dread such a scenario and must resist it by all means.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 12:09 #

  13. Truthlover
    Member

    Isn't it only for Allah to know, who treads the right path and who astrays? Why you judge us, is it because you consider yourself pious?
    Doesn't Allah says that he alone guides to right path to whomever he so pleases and astrays to whomever he chooses to do so? Can you guide me to the right path, if the will of God is otherwise?
    Moses to his faith and Jesus to his, isn't that being told to you?
    Shall you believe in anything that lays outside your sets of beliefs?
    I persume that you won't, then why do you expect from this thinker to have your beliefs?
    He didn't believe in Islam to be only path leading to God, as we don't believe Chrsit the only way of reaching God.
    Tolerance my dear, tolerance towards others and their views is the key. None can insult Allah, he is so above all his creation.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 12:22 #

  14. Revivalist
    member

    As a Muslim we are obliged to refer all our disputes and disagreements to Allah and his messenger (saw) and not to some western philosophers who have bitter experience of religion and wants to impose the same experience over Islam, which is utterly wrong. To understand Islam best we need to refer back to the life of Muhammad (saw) and his noble sahaba (ra) and the way they understood Islam. IF you believe politics should be taken out from Islam you have to prove it from Islam itself and not from any other source.

    Was Abu Bakr (ra) a dictator?

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 12:30 #

  15. Revivalist
    member

    TL,

    "He didn't believe in Islam to be only path leading to God, as we don't believe Chrsit the only way of reaching God". what is your openion regarding this statment???

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 12:37 #

  16. achtung
    Member

    super soldier bhai

    "Look at this great thinker (where is his great thinkness). He was insane. He used the word "all religion". He didn't know that there is only one religion Islam, All other religion are false and man made."

    how you can close your eyes to say there is only one religion? there are many religions in this world. how you deny that? even in religion of islam there are dozens of sects. i think you will deny that also. tell me which sect in islam is true sect. to put you head in sand and say there is no world is ridiculous.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 12:42 #

  17. shimatoree
    Member

    I am really amazed and the thought police of "tolerance" is on attack.


    It is just a quote and comment of one line.

    And we wonder why we have 73 sects !

    We are human beings born of woman. When we were born- there was no stamp or brand on our bottom or on our forehead saying we are Muslim or Hindu or Jew Or whatever else.
    We are Muslim just by the accident of birth in a Muslim house.

    So what should those children do whose accident of birth puts them in  Hindu house?

    Does their birth condemns them to hell?
    Did God decide to put them in the house of a Hindu or were they evil spirits from the start and must go to hell?

    Is reason and logic forbidden in Islam?

    If so the why do you-

    -fly in airplanes built by kafirs based on reason?

    -write on the websites developed by kafirs

    -post videos developed by kafirs on internet developed by kafirs?

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 12:55 #

  18. Truthlover
    Member

    Revivalist,

    I believe you want some clarification regarding my statement. I'll try to provide you that as simple as it is possible.
    What I mean is that we all have our own beliefs, given to us by our parents, religions and societies we live in. It's very hard to believe in anything different or contradictory to our faith. For Christians Christ was son of God, a part of trinity, a God incarnated. But we muslims believe him to be just one of the many prophets. Now tell me can anyone convince you that Jesus was a God? I'm sure the mere possibility shall make you uncomfortable and you'll reject it without even giving it a chance. So what I mean is that that what you consider something obvious, might sound absurd to others belonging to other faiths. Hope I've made my position clear to you. 

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 13:28 #

  19. Truthlover
    Member

    Revivalist

    "Was Abu Bakr (ra) a dictator?"

    No he wasn't but was he not a close friend of prophet and knew the teachings well. Can you mention some more names that proceeded him in the next fourteen hundred years? Power does corrupt and especially when it's unlimited.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 13:36 #

  20. nota
    Member

    @SS

    Some blasphemous views of Col Robert G. Ingersoll about religion

    Religion has been tried, and in all countries, in all times,has failed.
    Religion has never made man merciful.
    Remember the Inquisition.
    What effect did religion have on slavery?
    What effect upon Libby, Saulsbury and Andersonville?
    Religion has always been the enemy of science, of investigation and thought.
    Religion has never made man free.
    It has never made man moral, temperate, industrious and honest.
    Are Christians more temperate, nearer virtuous, nearer honest than savages?     
    Among savages do we not find that their vices and cruelties are the fruits of their superstitions?     
    To those who believe in the Uniformity of Nature, religion is impossible.

    Blasphemies? ALL of rhem?? Wow! I think you looked at the first one and went "1400 years ago..." and then nicely wrapped the whole shebang in that convenient wrapper. "Religion has never made man merciful" could be an opinion but I think you are playing too loose with the term. And how does stating "Remember the Inquisition" become a "blasphemy"?

    @Shimatoree
    "Is reason and logic forbidden in Islam?"
    Blasphemy!!!! :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 17:27 #

  21. shimatoree
    Member

    TL-

            We do not know if Abu Bakr was a dictator but Umar sure was and a very good one at that.

            We need  a whole lot like him.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 17:36 #

  22. zia m
    Member

    "

    Heresy extends the hospitalities of the brain to a new thought.

    Heresy is a cradle; orthodoxy, a coffin.

    Why should man be afraid to think, and why should he fear to express his thoughts?

    Is it possible that an infinite Deity is unwil<!--251-->ling that a man should investigate the phenomena by which he is surrounded? Is it possible that a god delights in threatening and terrifying men? What glory, what honor and renown a god must win on such a field! The ocean raving at a drop; a star envious of a candle; the sun jealous of a fire-fly.

    Go on, presbyters and synods, go on! Thrust the heretics out of the church -- that is to say, throw away your brains, -- put out your eyes. The infidels will thank you. They are willing to adopt your exiles. Every deserter from your camp is a recruit for the army of progress. Cling to the ignorant dogmas of the past; read the 109th Psalm; gloat over the slaughter of mothers and babes; thank God for total depravity; shower your honors upon hypocrites, and silence every minister who is touched with that heresy called genius.

    Be true to your history. Turn out the astronomers, the geologists, the naturalists, the chemists, and all the honest scientists. With a whip of scorpions, drive them all out. We want them all. Keep the ignorant, the superstitious, the bigoted, and the writers of charges and specifications.<!--252--> Keep them, and keep them all. Repeat your pious platitudes in the drowsy ears of the faithful, and read your Bible to heretics, as kings read some forgotten riot-act to stop and stay the waves of revolution. You are too weak to excite anger. We forgive your efforts as the sun forgives a cloud -- as the air forgives the breath you waste."
     Heretics and Heresies by Ingersoll.

     

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 17:45 #

  23. nota
    Member

    @shimatoree
    "We do not know if Abu Bakr was a dictator but Umar sure was and a very good one at that.

    We need  a whole lot like him."

    But what about "Worst democracy is better than the best dictatorship"?

    BTW: Can someone name a great Muslim ruler in the last 1000 years  who was NOT a dictator?

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 17:46 #

  24. nota
    Member

    @zia m
    Thanks (for the blasphemies)!!!

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 17:48 #

  25. dildar
    Member

    nota

    BTW: Can someone name a great Muslim ruler in the last 1000 years  who was NOT a dictator?

    Zardari!!!! :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 18:13 #

  26. nota
    Member

    @dildar
    How could I forget :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 18:14 #

  27. shafiq12
    member

    even in religion of islam there are dozens of sects.

    "...Verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sects but my people will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the fire except one.' The companions asked. 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’ (Tirmidhi - Kitabul Eeman)

    So I advise u don't follow Sects, Follow Quran, Rasool and his Companions
    ,===================================================
    Nota
    @zia m
    Thanks (for the blasphemies)!!!

    but don't believe in any religion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 23 Sep 2010 18:52 #

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