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A Lost Opportunity ?

(48 posts)
  1. shimatoree
    Member

    Renaissance for Muslims

    In 1492 the Muslim Moors were defeated at Granada by the Catholic army of Isabelle of Spain. When this happened and even before that during the Muslim rule in Spain, modern scientific knowledge had been transmitted to the European continent from the Muslim scholars. This was the accumulated knowledge in Physics, Chemistry, Logic, philosophy etc of those that came before the Muslims such as the Greeks and others as well as the advanced knowledge created by the Muslim thinkers and scientists such as Jabir Bin Hayan and others.

    The obvious question arises that if the Muslims were that advanced why they went into dark ages after the defeat in Granada , Spain.

    The answer lies in the following statement.

    A systematic pre-meditated plan was put in place by the Muslim kings with active help of the Islamic Clergy to strangulate and stifle reason and creative thought.
    The purpose was to maintain and secure the political hegemony of various Arab dynasties and groups in power.

    And how did they do it ?

    Well , with the active cooperation of the Islamic Clergy and the Arab rulers legitimized their edicts by judicious and selective use of Hadith.
    The specific aim was to control and contain REASON by issuing edicts backed by the Hadith to cover every minute aspect of human life and to prevent anyone from indulging in independent thought process.
    Since in every Muslim’s life everything had to be according to the directives of the Quran and Hadith- and Quran was unchangeable-( could not be altered).
    A whole lot of people came forward with various Hadith since being associated with a Hadith was a great honor and everyone wanted such honor to become part of the Elite and aristocracy.
    The Ummayad and Abassid kings felt that this was the best way to control the population and address the issue of their illegitimacy. So the great potential of a new civilization to explore new horizons was stunted.

    If you have any doubts about this theory – just look at the Muslim countries of today. In spite of many of them having been under the colonial rule/ political influencing of Western European countries- the same stifling atmosphere of those by gone days remains. The role of the Islamic Clergy today as an anti-intellectual and anti-progressive political force persists. A substantial part of the Muslim populations are being held intellectual and spiritual hostage by these political forces.
    And their main weapon is to disallow reason and promote dogma.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 3:29 #
  2. Hadith: The ultimate WMD (?)

    (One previous discussion about Hadith starting here)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 4:01 #
  3. saqib55
    Member

    Very good post nota and shimatoree. Be prepared for the onslaught of labeling.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 4:05 #
  4. toamin
    member

    interesting theory but it fails to answer how muslims were able to reach at advanced level at first place under islamic jurisprudence?

    to use word clergy is again misleading and shows the author is relying on orientalist works -without citation-

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 4:28 #
  5. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    ST quote "The role of the Islamic Clergy today as an anti-intellectual and anti-progressive political force persists."

    Who are the so called intellectuals and progressives? who defines them and what is their datum? Where are they progressing towards? What is their ultimate goal?

    This shows the apologetic slavish attitude of secular "educated" for which Allama Iqbal said:

    "If Pharoah knew about the disastrous consequences of secular education, he would rather had given the new borns secular education rather than killing them."

    The entire vocubalory of these secular educated ones ranging from "intellectual" to "progressive" is alien to Islamic concept of civilization. Their thinking and modus operandi is blindly aping the decadent West. In West "progressive" is one who attains materialistic exellence but in Islamic society the "progressive" is one who attains higher morals and piety for ultimate salvation inthie world and hereafter.

    Western vs Islamic society

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 4:55 #
  6. @AR
    "If Pharoah knew about the disastrous consequences of secular education, he would rather had given the new borns secular education rather than killing them."

    The entire vocubalory of these secular educated ones ranging from "intellectual" to "progressive" is alien to Islamic concept of civilization. Their thinking and modus operandi is blindly aping the decadent West. In West "progressive" is one who attains materialistic exellence but in Islamic society the "progressive" is one who attains higher morals and piety for ultimate salvation inthie world and hereafter."
    Thanks! Just one thing (or two) I would like to point out: Should we be talking "In West.."? The properties you attribute to them are very much a part of us today and the "aping" is complete (and not just among our "intellectual" to "progressive"). So when we talk of such things, should we be separating the two?

    @saqib55
    "Be prepared for the onslaught of labeling"
    I have had the honor many a times and from both sides ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 5:09 #
  7. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Nota, It is same. No need to separate. Like it or not, I would say we are unfortunately embedded in the Western civilization lock, stock and barrel at present except perhaps some fiercely independant pockets here and there.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 5:23 #
  8. saqib55
    Member

    We have even manged to copy the worst of the West and leave any of the redeeming qualities alone.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 5:35 #
  9. toamin
    member

    again... going in abstract... what are redeeming qualities??

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 5:46 #
  10. shafiq12
    member

    @nota

    Bukhari is most authentic book after Quran. The great man mohammad ismail bukhari was honest in collecting the Hadith.

    A true believe must accept the authentic saying of Holy Prophet.

    http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/why-islam-is-complicated#post-175666

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 6:02 #
  11. @SS
    "A true believe must accept the authentic saying of Holy Prophet."

    Of course :)
    Bukhari is most authentic book after Quran.
    Thanks for proving my point.

    The great man mohammad ismail bukhari was honest in collecting the Hadith.
    Here I am reminded: "Road to hell is paved with good intentions." ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 7:58 #
  12. shafiq12
    member

    Here I am reminded: "Road to hell is paved with good intentions." ;-)

    Nota u disgrace the work of a great muslim scholar. Do u think.

    Road to heaven is paved with bad intentions

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 8:19 #
  13. nota, so glad you're here as well. Your cool head much needed. May I quote you times twice:

    One: "The Quran dictated by the Prophet as His message is the only source of Islam."

    Two: "Hadith: The ultimate WMD (?)"

    Two perfect gems which describe the core of my own attitude towards the question.

    S.S. Only by adopting this particular attitude do we come closer to what you have always called the Khilafa and I the coming Ummah. Only by reflecting carefully over what poor shimatoree has been trying hard to draw our attention to will we Muslims revive and once again become the leaders of the world.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 10:41 #
  14. shimatoree
    Member

    MG-

    With friends like you and nota, and other objective thinkers

    - I am not POOR at all .

    I am filthy rich-

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 11:47 #
  15. shafiq12
    member

    Look Man Mirza Galib

    We may have clash of thougts. But show some respect to work of Great Scholar Imam Bhukari. By his work today so many muslim are benefited. Imam Bukhari was a great man and honest follower of Rasool. That is only problem with nota. Who are We are not equal to the DIRT of IMAM BUKHARI and ALL THE SAHABAS (may Allah please on them All)
    Imam bukhari has done a great service:-

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 12:05 #
  16. shimatoree
    Member

    The technique to stifle and strangulate thought by those with fanatical and ossified closed minds is unchanged today on this web site in it's various threads.

    The self proclaimed legitimacy -concocted-( dishonestly) by a distortion of religion specifically for the purpose of stopping reason and restricting debate- is the technique used once the Zaradris of old-( after the death of Ali (and Hassan) took over.

    They knew they were illegitimate and there were only two ways they could control the Muslims so that they could continue their enrichment through stealing .
    Their initial step was to buy and control the Qadis-( judiciary)-

    Then they had to stop REASON and they did that by making it appear that to reason was to be against God and his Prophet.
    They could not have done that without the active cooperation of the so-called religious establishment.

    And second they could only do that by enriching those that were willing to be bought.

    And then of course they used death. torture and military force against anyone who did not toe the line.

    Creative people still carried on but the long term effect of the strangulation was that
    gradually the Muslims ended up in the dark ages where we still appear to be with the same powers trying to control independent thought process and critical thinking except for what they consider HALAL and what they approve.

    Today- our young people who go and live in the West for sometime and in spite of other impediments of race, colour etc- they shine and excel in all intellectual fields and rise to the highest levels of achievement- WHY ?

    Because in their fields their thought process is not strangulated and they are allowed- no encouraged to develop their creativity.

    The only good thing now is that the GENIE is out of the bag and after just about 1400 years we have found out who the STRANGULATORS are and what techniques they use.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 12:09 #
  17. saad.ali.sahi
    Member

    i see many people here are influenced by ghulam ahmed pervez

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 13:30 #
  18. @saad
    "i see many people here are influenced by ghulam ahmed pervez"

    Ha, Ha!
    The first time I heard the name was when, of all the people, my father labeled me a "Pervezi" about six or seven years ago. I didn't have a clue what he meant and had to ask someone what Pervezi meant (I didn't even know it was a particular person's name). I never followed up on it and to this day I don't know much about him except that he is supposed to have written a book(s?) rejecting hadith (I don't even know if that is a fact -- never really was interested enough to check).

    So to say that I am "influenced by ghulam ahmed pervez" is certainly not true. ;-)

    @shimatoree
    "I am filthy rich"
    Ditto! :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 15:09 #
  19. shimatoree
    Member

    nota-

    I have another theory.

    George Orwell and Aldous Huxley read a secret manuscript from Muawiyah's time on how to control the minds and bodies of the people .

    Then George Orwell wrote 1984 and Aldous Huxley wrote his Brave new world.

    And we have been living in this Brave Old World for 1400 years!

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 15:25 #
  20. "Then George Orwell wrote 1984 and Aldous Huxley wrote his Brave new world."

    So thats where he is getting his information from. Anyway, nothing else was expected from a attention seeking wh0re...

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 15:30 #
  21. shimatoree
    Member

    MG and Saqib-

    we are dealing with the same ossified minds
    (of yester year)-
    -the rigid doctrinaire dicatorship of of deception by those who have on purpose modified and distorted Islam into a version of their own pseudo-religious totalitarianism which was and is designed for the specific purpose to control and restrict thought.

    It is and it has been for the last 1400 years and we have been living in Orwell's 1984 and Huxley's Brave New World .

    We have to escape.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 15:31 #
  22. @UmeR
    " "Then George Orwell wrote 1984 and Aldous Huxley wrote his Brave new world."
    So thats where he is getting his information from. Anyway, nothing else was expected from a attention seeking wh0re..."

    Please elaborate (don't be shy)...

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 15:37 #
  23. elaborate on what?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 15:40 #
  24. shimatoree
    Member

    nota-

    On Ghulam Ahmad Pervez- of whom I just became aware thanks to Saad Ali Sahi and you-

    Allama Ghulam Ahmad Parwez (also transliterated Parvez, Perwaiz, Parvaiz, etc.) (1903–1985) was a prominent Islamic scholar. He urged the Muslims to ponder deeply over the Message of the Quran. He considered Islam a din (way of life), a form of government, a system of government like democracy, autocracy, or socialism. He proclaimed that according to Islam all authority rests with "the law of God" as given in the Quran, whereby food and wealth are to be distributed equally to everybody. He preached that Islam was not a typical religion of rituals and superstitious beliefs but was a challenge to the very institution of organized religion. He was very close fellow of Maolana Abul Aala Modoodi(founder of jamat-e-Islami)because of his progressive and liberal views about islam.When Sir Allama Iqbal and Ch. Niaz Khan decided to start a progressive islamic university in jamalpur (near pthan kot) Dist Gurdaspur India, Mr Ghulam Ahmed perwaiz was the person who refered Molana Moudoodi as head of that university"darussalam". Sir Iqbal agreed on it and Modoodi Joined "Darussalam".Intellectually he was founder of this institute. Laters when Mr Perwaiz denied hadith and its importance then Molana modoodi had a rift in relations(Refrenece" Hayat-e-sadeed by K.M Azam"

    His writings illuminatingly describe how Islam was treacherously transformed into a religion by kings who had perverted Islam for their vested interests. "The kings sponsored the creation and fabrication of hadith," he declared. Parvez denounced the Hadith which described Ayesha, the prophet's wife, as a nine-year-old girl. "These are fabricated stories written by the enemies of Islam," he said. He proved from historical record that Ayesha was a much older lady. The perverted Mullahs, who for centuries had used this "tradition of the prophet" to justify their own sexual perversions with minor girls, declared Pervez a heretic "for denying the authority and authenticity of the Hadiths." Pervez condemned the Mullahs for "always serving as agents of the rich people" and being "promoters of uncontrolled Capitalism." In 1951, Parvez exposed the real face of Jamaat-e-Islami through several articles in Tolu-e-Islam. He was the first to declare this political party as a Terrorist organization. "The mullahs have hijacked Islam," he said.

    Revered all over the world and especially in Pakistan, his students are amongst the highest ranking scholars and men of letters. Parvez was the right hand man of Muhammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, and was one of the leading activists of the Pakistan movement.

    At least now we know we are not alone!

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 15:44 #
  25. @UmeR
    So thats where he is getting his information from. Anyway, nothing else was expected from a attention seeking wh0re...

    Elaborate on your words!

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 16:10 #
  26. @UmeR
    You owe an appology to shimatoree....We will wait.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 16:17 #
  27. toamin
    member

    okay so that all what happened and we ended up here with zardari, mubarak, qazafi etc. selected and chosen people of the very modern and enlightened people with full political and military backing, muslims are learning all sciences, no one is blocking them, why muslims are at worst level compared with before?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 16:23 #
  28. 'attention seeking wh0re'

    Isn't that self explanatory? What kind of explanation do you need now, you mean like what kinda w hore he is, professional or amateur or wannabe professional. Go through his posts, and come to your own conclusion. Anyway, Mr Mod, I have seen you're very quick to ask people about the references of what they state on this forum, but why this special love for shitmore? How did he gain a license to talk crap endlessly?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 16:30 #
  29. I am not asking about references here but your abusive language for a member that is unjustified by all means.
    Others are discussing quite nicely except you who has resorted to abuse instead of reasoning as an intellectual.
    Would have been nice of you if you had apologized.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 16:41 #
  30. Come on UmeR, do listen to semirza sahib just this once. You are one of the cleverest persons around. You can do better than that. Tear someone's arguments to pieces without resorting to insults.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 18:24 #
  31. @MG
    Tear someone's arguments to pieces without resorting to insults.

    So nice of him if he had...but he did not.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 22:59 #
  32. Never mind, semirza sahib. He's a proud person, but in my experience of him, he's also got a good heart. He'll be back sometime and apologise after his own fashon.

    Shimatoree has got everyone somewhat rattled by his interrogations, a very salutary thing all in all. But the best of our ultra-religious bloggers fail to see the point he's been trying to make and suspect him of wrongdoing. Inshallah, they, too, will get to understand someday that Shimatoree is an excellent Muslim and all he's pleading with us to do is use our heads as well, in addition to our faith, for the final good of Pakistan.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 23:31 #
  33. I believe shimatoree is trying to stir up a bit of an honest intellectual that resides deep inside in each and every one of us.
    He has cajoled us to be honest and spill out the truth however bitter it may be. He did his best, and so are you doing your utmost Mirza Ghalib Bhai Sahab. Hats off to you and your efforts...I hope they will listen at last.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Sep 2010 23:37 #
  34. toamin
    member

    i think it is also important to understand why members are being hurt by shimatoree-

    he may think what ever about himself in his mind, but at the end of the day he is playing with people's belief and must adopt better way of communication that helps understand and not close mind or react-

    the reaction is because of bad prescription that mr. surgeon is continuously prescribing without paying attention-

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 4:50 #
  35. saqib55
    Member

    You need drastic medication to cure the cancerous growth among Muslims. There is always some pain during treatment like chemotherapy or amputation to save the rest of the body.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 6:41 #
  36. toamin
    member

    i don't think there is any cure shared or intended here... people are just busy debating philosophies mixed with history

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 7:14 #
  37. saad.ali.sahi
    Member

    so the conclusion of all these posts is that we should reject the hadiths and only follow Quran, is that right?

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 7:15 #
  38. toamin
    member

    there is no conclusion, everyone is thinking inside his canned value system-

    your belief is for you and my belief is for me :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 7:35 #
  39. saad.ali.sahi
    Member

    so its like this Salam

    109. Surat Al-Kaafirun, Meccan, 6 verses

    (1) Say: 'O unbelievers,
    (2) I do not worship what you worship,
    (3) nor do you worship what I worship.
    (4) Nor am I worshiping what you have worshipped,
    (5) neither will you worship what I worship.
    (6) To you your religion, and to me my Religion.'

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 8:56 #
  40. toamin
    member

    Thank you!

    now be ready for all sorts of labels from the other side :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 9:08 #
  41. Thank you, semirza sahib.

    I have just one question for everyone: My Muslim brothers and sisters, my fellow Pakistanis, is your faith so fragile that you cannot stand to see someone probing any part of it? And that, too, concerning the history that goes along with Allah Almighty's religion of Islam? Why take offence? Why scream blasphemy and apostasy and other such dire threats?

    See where we are at today, at the very end of our tether seemingly. Try a dose of tolerance at times, friends, that is part of Islam as well. Try a bit of broad-mindedness, it will never harm you, only brîng you closer to our Muslim goals. And for heaven's sake, fellow bloggers, forget the quarrels and begin acting on our Allah-given principles of setting up an egalitarian, welfare Muslim environement, devoid both of greed and materialism.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 9:25 #
  42. toamin
    member

    yea, i think let him write here, it is a good practice for all of us indeed, we can learn classical oriental arguments and train ourselves accordingly :)

    last but not least he is generating good activity on this forum, it was quite boring before :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 9:50 #
  43. @Salam
    "yea, i think let him write here, it is a good practice for all of us indeed, we can learn classical oriental arguments and train ourselves accordingly :)"

    Hey, what happened to the "little heretic"?
    :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 10:35 #
  44. Spot on comment and conclusion. We are also absolutely free to disagree with shimatoree, if we feel he's talking through his hat. But perhaps with a bit of courtesy, since he happens to be older than most on this blog. And by not taking anything he says as an insult to Islam or a personal attack.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 10:37 #
  45. toamin
    member

    @nota

    little heretic got stunned by a little orientalist :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 11:34 #
  46. shimatoree
    Member

    Mg-

    " if we feel he's talking through his hat." and

    " Shimatoree's INTERROGATION "

    I am sure you have not failed to notice that NO ONE and I mean NO one came up with logical reasons for their opinions- Instead the following was hurled at me as as rational-

    1. He should not hurt our feelings !

    2. He is attacking Islam.

    3. He is attacking the Sahaba.

    Starting to have doubts ! I am certainly not talking out of my hat since I do not wear hats anyway. I still got plenty of my own hair.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 17:14 #
  47. "I am sure you have not failed to notice that NO ONE and I mean NO one came up with logical reasons for their opinions- Instead the following was hurled at me as as rational"

    Oh bro too much of self-esteem and self-centeredness will lead you to arrogance and intellectual disability...i think everyone under their intellectual capacity and understanding of history and facts was trying to answer the questions...plus its an ongoing discussion and also i have hardly seen the so called intellectuals on this forum to show their agreement to any matter under discussion....so dont you think its the problem with the behaviour actually and not the material of the conversation? ;)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Sep 2010 20:36 #
  48. saad.ali.sahi
    Member

    Posted 1 year ago on 19 Sep 2010 11:43 #

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