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A page from history...

(34 posts)
  1. Salam

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    Posted 3 years ago on 06 Jan 2011 15:41 #
  2. expakistani

    @salam bhai
    Good one janab, ab brown log UK ja ker yeah kuch kareen gey jo gorey ney humharey sath kara.

    Posted 3 years ago on 06 Jan 2011 16:49 #
  3. Raavi

    OMG!!!!!!!

    And we took the bate! We may have been GOOD spiritually and having values, but gullible and naive to follow the nation without!!

    Oh GOD give me 1835 Indian values!!!

    Salam, thanks for this REMINDER (though these would be the traits of our great great grandfathers)!

    Posted 3 years ago on 06 Jan 2011 18:16 #
  4. Raavi

    The source please!!!

    Posted 3 years ago on 06 Jan 2011 18:17 #
  5. fear

    don't worry my friends

    soon we will rewrite the history ,

    "it will be on their land, it will be on their blood."

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 9:32 #
  6. Raavi

    "it will be on their land, it will be on their blood."

    Allah khair kare! Ameen!

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 10:05 #
  7. Salam

    Raavi, let me know if you can't find the source, i hope a simple google would give you source, in wipipedia macaulay's whole report is available-

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 10:09 #
  8. gv

    @salam

    This is Macaulay's actual minute on education submitted to the Governor General's council on 2nd Feb 1835

    Please read it carefully because as negative as it might have been for us as a nation - nowhwere does he say what everybody on the internet supposes him to have said (re your post above).

    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/macaulay/txt_minute_education_1835.html

    ps. Point 34 is the famous statement vid 'creating a cclass of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect.'

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 12:04 #
  9. Salam

    yes gv.. i have quoted macaulay dozens of time on his 1835 minute.. once again:

    I feel with them that it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, --a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population.

    They delivered this "class" to us and that "class" has been imposed on top ever since :)

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 12:10 #
  10. gv

    Ok but the point is your initial post above is false - he did not say that.

    p.s please appreciate im not trying to defend macaulay here im just trying stick to the facts.

    @admin

    if you have something to say say it in your post why are you editing mine?

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 12:26 #
  11. Salam

    no gv, i don't think it is false, i think that passage belongs to some other 'minute'.. not sure though-

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 13:14 #
  12. gv

    @salam

    it doesnt make sense because (in the minute) he goes on about how backward indian education is and how they need 'western perspectives' to improve

    so the two statements contradict each other.

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 13:16 #
  13. OK, Friends, Now just one question to all of you. Just who cares what Macaulay said or didn't say? But since you're all so keen on a pat on the back from west sources, try this one on for size:

    "There are few communities in the world among whom education is more generally diffused than among the Muhammadans in India. He who holds an office worth twenty rupees a month commonly gives his sons an education equal to that of a prime minister. they learn, through the medium of Arabic and Persian languages, what young men in our colleges learn through those of Greek and Latin - that is grammar, rhetoric and logic. After his seven years of study, the young Muhammadan binds his turban upon a head almost as well filled with the things which appertain to these branches of knowledge as the young men raw from Oxford - he will talk as fluently about Socrates and Aristotle, Plato and Hippocrates, Galen and Avicenna; (alias Sokrat, Aristotalis, Aflatun, Bokrat, Jalinus and Bu Ali Sena); and, what is much to his advantage in India, the languages in which he has learnt what he knows are those which he most requires through life." Colonel William Sleeman

    Right, then, when we've read this, what do we know more? That we Muslims have a burning intelligence if only we gave our inferiority complex a miss?

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 13:20 #
  14. gv

    @mg

    you're completely missing the point here

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 13:45 #
  15. Salam

    lolzz MG

    "pat on the back from west" good one, you got me here :)

    but i hope you know that i would be the last one here wanting that-

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 14:12 #
  16. Raavi

    MG a nice point about "pat on the back".
    We need some type of certificate from west before appreciating something! Good one! Liked that!

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 14:29 #
  17. gv

    @salam

    also by 1835 they were the strongest political entity in the sub continent with just the punjab and sindh as independent states which were not subject to them.

    Its historically inaccurate to attribute a false statement to someone simply to give us a warm fuzzy feeling about ourselves

    its the same with david ben gurion's supposed statement about pakistan. there is no record beyond spurious internet sources about it.

    if we want to progress we should at least learn our history /general knowledge accurately and to do our best to present the facts in an objective manner.

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 14:42 #
  18. Salam

    yes, i think you are right gv, this passage runs contrary to the record preserved by the west-

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 14:44 #
  19. gv

    ok one more thing why on earth would a publication called the 'industrial bulletin' have this under their trade history section??????

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 14:48 #
  20. @gv
    "it doesnt make sense because (in the minute) he goes on about how backward indian education is and how they need 'western perspectives' to improve

    so the two statements contradict each other. "

    They are. Read the whole thing and his argument is that local languages are too backward and have no scientific terms so even if one wanted to translate scientific works into local languages, one simply can't. He is mainly disagreeing with those in parliament who want the education funds to be spent on education in Sanskrit and Arabic, and feels it would be much better to spend in on teaching in English. The whole thing is worth reading to get rid of all the confusion but I am going to paste here an earlier bit:

    [8] All parties seem to be agreed on one point, that the dialects commonly spoken among the natives of this part of India contain neither literary nor scientific information, and are moreover so poor and rude that, until they are enriched from some other quarter, it will not be easy to translate any valuable work into them. It seems to be admitted on all sides, that the intellectual improvement of those classes of the people who have the means of pursuing higher studies can at present be affected only by means of some language not vernacular amongst them.

    [9] What then shall that language be? One-half of the committee maintain that it should be the English. The other half strongly recommend the Arabic and Sanscrit. The whole question seems to me to be– which language is the best worth knowing?

    [10] I have no knowledge of either Sanscrit or Arabic. But I have done what I could to form a correct estimate of their value. I have read translations of the most celebrated Arabic and Sanscrit works. I have conversed, both here and at home, with men distinguished by their proficiency in the Eastern tongues. I am quite ready to take the oriental learning at the valuation of the orientalists themselves. I have never found one among them who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia. The intrinsic superiority of the Western literature is indeed fully admitted by those members of the committee who support the oriental plan of education.

    [11] It will hardly be disputed, I suppose, that the department of literature in which the Eastern writers stand highest is poetry. And I certainly never met with any orientalist who ventured to maintain that the Arabic and Sanscrit poetry could be compared to that of the great European nations. But when we pass from works of imagination to works in which facts are recorded and general principles investigated, the superiority of the Europeans becomes absolutely immeasurable. It is, I believe, no exaggeration to say that all the historical information which has been collected from all the books written in the Sanscrit language is less valuable than what may be found in the most paltry abridgments used at preparatory schools in England. In every branch of physical or moral philosophy, the relative position of the two nations is nearly the same.

    [12] How then stands the case? We have to educate a people who cannot at present be educated by means of their mother-tongue. We must teach them some foreign language. The claims of our own language it is hardly necessary to recapitulate. It stands pre-eminent even among the languages of the West. It abounds with works of imagination not inferior to the noblest which Greece has bequeathed to us, –with models of every species of eloquence, –with historical composition, which, considered merely as narratives, have seldom been surpassed, and which, considered as vehicles of ethical and political instruction, have never been equaled– with just and lively representations of human life and human nature, –with the most profound speculations on metaphysics, morals, government, jurisprudence, trade, –with full and correct information respecting every experimental science which tends to preserve the health, to increase the comfort, or to expand the intellect of man. Whoever knows that language has ready access to all the vast intellectual wealth which all the wisest nations of the earth have created and hoarded in the course of ninety generations. It may safely be said that the literature now extant in that language is of greater value than all the literature which three hundred years ago was extant in all the languages of the world together. Nor is this all. In India, English is the language spoken by the ruling class. It is spoken by the higher class of natives at the seats of Government. It is likely to become the language of commerce throughout the seas of the East. It is the language of two great European communities which are rising, the one in the south of Africa, the other in Australia, –communities which are every year becoming more important and more closely connected with our Indian empire. Whether we look at the intrinsic value of our literature, or at the particular situation of this country, we shall see the strongest reason to think that, of all foreign tongues, the English tongue is that which would be the most useful to our native subjects.

    [13] The question now before us is simply whether, when it is in our power to teach this language, we shall teach languages in which, by universal confession, there are no books on any subject which deserve to be compared to our own, whether, when we can teach European science, we shall teach systems which, by universal confession, wherever they differ from those of Europe differ for the worse, and whether, when we can patronize sound philosophy and true history, we shall countenance, at the public expense, medical doctrines which would disgrace an English farrier, astronomy which would move laughter in girls at an English boarding school, history abounding with kings thirty feet high and reigns thirty thousand years long, and geography made of seas of treacle and seas of butter.

    So there is no way the passage, the 'page' @salam quoted above, could follow from this and I must agree it is a fabrication. I once made the mistake myself and took it for real till someone pointed it out to me. It is mostly used by Hindu nationalists and was probably fabricated by them.

    Here is a blog post (that contains links to other good articles on this) that should dispel this myth completely:
    Lord Macaulay's Quote on India

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 14:58 #
  21. gv

    @nota

    Thanks for that!

    The simple point i'm trying to make is that its precisely attitudes like this false self congratulation (as this 'page' provides) which led to the stagnation of our society in the first place politically and technologically and which allowed us to be subjugated by the brits.

    Also as some of your highlighted portions of the minute point out - In 1835 they were already in charge. They were focusing on how to administer the region not how to subjugate it.

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 15:04 #
  22. @gv
    Just added a link on edit...hope you didn't miss it.

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 15:07 #
  23. Raavi

    "It is, I believe, no exaggeration to say that all the historical information which has been collected from all the books written in the Sanscrit language is less valuable than what may be found in the most paltry abridgments used at preparatory schools in England".

    My shortlived happiness over our past!!!!!! :o(

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 15:11 #
  24. gv

    @raavi

    that is merely his opinion and not necessarily correct.

    @nota

    thanks will do

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 15:14 #
  25. So there is no way the passage, the 'page' quoted above, could follow from this and I must agree it is a fabrication.

    Agreed as nota says. This might be a fabrication, but by whom. Here is what I found as discussed by others:

    A friend has recently forwarded me a quote from Lord Macaulay's speech in the British Parliament on 2nd February 1835. I reproduce the quote below:

    "I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation."

    The email requested me to forward me to every indian I know. I was tempted, but there were two oddities about this quote. First, the language, which appeared too modern. Second, this was far too obvious and too cynical for Macaulay, who was an apologist of the empire, and believed in its high moral purpose. The quote was obviously a fraud.
    I was, however, tempted to check the source of this quote [I take this blog seriously!]. I found this useful article on http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/hinduism/macaulay.html.

    The article basically says that there is no authoritative source for this quote, except Hindu Nationalist magazines and sources, though this is widely circulated and believed. The author also claims that it is unlikely that such a speech was made, as Macaulay would have been in India on that date.

    Then I found more information on Macaulay's speech in http://books.google.com/books?id=0kSMosMLUMwC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=lord+macaulay+2nd+february+1835+india&source=web&ots=wmjOO95mYR&sig=Q6U0FlzLCJH3Tl21qCOIqva-oy8#PPA174,M1 which told me that Macaulay addressed the parliament on about Indian education.

    [The date was 10th July 1833] This speech is usually referred together with his famous Minutes on Indian Education, which was indeed dated 2nd February 1835 where he was arguing in favour of using English as the medium of education in India, and made his oft-quoted comment that 'a single shelf of good european library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia'.

    However, what is overlooked, rather conveniently, is this comment contained the same document: Are we to keep the people of India ignorant in order that we may keep them submissive? Or do we think that we can give them knowledge without awakening ambition? Or do we mean to awaken ambition and to provide it with no legitimate vent? Who will answer any of these questions in the affirmative? Yet one of them must be answered in the affirmative, by every person who maintains that we ought permanently to exclude the natives from high office. I have no fears. The path of duty is plain before us: and it is also the path of wisdom, of national prosperity, of national honor.[http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1833macaulay-india.html]
    Clearly, Macaulay was saying something directly opposite to what has been quoted as his!

    There is indeed a clear reason why this distorted quote was invented. This is indeed RSS and its followers, who put words on Macaulay.

    I now know RSS even referred to English speaking Indians as 'Children of Macaulay'! The quote above, passed on by my trusting friend, is a spoof, RSS trying to interpret what Macaulay might have meant. [I am sure those who did it knew that Macaulay also put Arabic on the same boat as Sanksrit]
    http://casi.ssc.upenn.edu/india/iit_Prasad2.htm contains another excellent article, which drew my attention to another of famous Macaulay quotes, contained in his Minutes on Education - We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern; a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect. However, this article also attempts to explain why Macaulay is such a hate figure among the Hindu nationalists.

    India is one of those countries with a great past and a promising future - and a present made up of unending conflicts between the two. No wonder Lord Macaulay has been invoked again, by email! And, no wonder it is a spoof, suiting some political Indian's view of the world. However, the colonialist that he was, India can thank Lord Macaulay for its modernity. He scripted the Indian Penal Code. He made no convenient adjustment to local religions.

    He wanted to build an education system secular and scientific, free of age-old prejudices and at par with the Western world. While his comment on Indian and Arabian literature was certainly ignorant, he played his part in building the modern India we are all so proud of.

    http://sundayposts.blogspot.com/2008/01/lord-macaulays-quote-on-india.html

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 15:17 #
  26. Raavi

    SEMIRZA sahib,
    Or do we think that we can give them knowledge without awakening ambition?.
    One reason why our landlords do not want the masses to be educated, because it awakens ambitions..

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 15:34 #
  27. Correct Raavi. Khowledge stirs up the soul so that ambitions to achieve aims, goals, objectives, aspirations that dreams to be realized etc all as a purpose for quest of knowledge.

    Why landlords are eager to fix a job (of a peon at most) for someone from among their subjects who has done matriculation, as a favour. Just to put an end to further education.

    Posted 3 years ago on 07 Jan 2011 15:44 #
  28. gv

    good article along the same lines

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/105096/when-will-we-stop-blaming-the-rest-of-the-world/

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Jan 2011 11:12 #
  29. ajhons

    @gv Brother
    Im sorry but it doesn't qualify the term "Good Article" .This is another extreme, putting every bit of the blame on pakistan.What he tried to tell in this article that US or rest of the world has nothing todo with the current(present and near past)situation of pakistan.No external force is playing anything in FATA and Baluchistan.Im also of the view that as a nation we very found of narating everything as a conspiracy theory but this doesn't ruled out the fact that there are no conspiracy altogather.

    BTW this 9/11 stuff and its Jew/CIA connectio is not surfaced from Pakistan.It came right from the heart of US.Fahrenheit 9/11 was not a Syed Noor Presentation.

    So we need to have to have a fair selction of thoughts and clearity of opinion else we will be lost either way.

    I term this article as a baised approach although Im agree upto certain extant with some of the material.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Jan 2011 11:50 #
  30. gv

    @ajohns

    I agree that super power involvement in the region from Iran in the 50's (mossadegh) to Afghanistan in the 80's and now has not helped our stability.

    However the bigger problem lies within us.

    If our leadership is incompetent and continues to weaken the state and its institutions than obviously outside powers will take advantage of this.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Jan 2011 12:02 #
  31. ajhons

    "If our leadership is incompetent and continues to weaken the state and its instituions than obviously outside powers will take advantage of this. "

    This I Wholeheartedly agree with you.The prime cause,beside others,is our leadership, politicle/riligious leadership.External forces succeed only when they find minimum resistance from within and in our case they find zero resistance from all of our cliam of fame leaders.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Jan 2011 12:08 #
  32. gv

    @ajohns

    thanks but i hope you see what i am trying to focus on - i.e. how does it help to fabricate stories which imply that we are all inncoents who are being abused only by external powers.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Jan 2011 12:15 #
  33. ajhons

    gv
    I definitly got your point.and Its really valid.This is what I always beleive on, instead of putting blame we should put ourselves under scrutiny.But we also have to be aware of our surroundings.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Jan 2011 12:24 #
  34. scindian

    I think they have become successfull in achieving their goals accross the world except China,Iran,latin America they are still safe from english cultural war.

    I have little contradiction with lord macauly statment

    "for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation"

    Soon after defeat of sindhians 1843 On 29th August 1857, Sindhi language was declared as National & official Language by the then British Government in sindh province.

    http://iaoj.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/a-historic-document-declaring-sindhi-as-the-official-language-of-sindh-29-august-1857/

    Urdu and Punjabi was given official status in panjab for sikh soldiers and official superiors respectivly

    http://www.global.ucsb.edu/punjab/14.1_Rahman.pdf

    In rest of India english and Hindi was given official status.

    Posted 3 years ago on 18 Jan 2011 17:33 #

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