A secular state is a moral state « PKPolitics Discuss

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A secular state is a moral state

(38 posts)

hkbajwa
Member

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=201039\story_9-3-2010_pg3_2

read through the article first please. No point commenting on the title of the thread without knowing where it originated.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 5:04 #
hkbajwa
Member

Seriously.. nobody has anything to say on this???

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 6:59 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

hkbajwa,

I just finished reading it !
No doubt a very informative article, I'm going to read Babar Ayaz's article now !

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010%5C02%5C02%5Cstory_2-2-2010_pg3_5

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 7:03 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Writer has raised very valid points.

In addition , i would like to raise that amendment to constituion is priviliage of National Assembly whereas --PAK ARMY has done several amendments (including article 62) during Zia and Mush era. And for this they have cited Nusrat Bhutto Case and Zafar Ali Shah. The interesting thing about both these cases that the verdict allowed

a) CMLA to amend constituion . HOw come SC can give a power to someone which it , itself doesn't hold.

b) Both these verdicts were given by depricated judiciary not by constitutional judiciary.

So , going by 31st Jul ,2009 verdict of SC itself , where it declared the functioniong of SC under Justice Dogar as void, the same logic appplies to both theses cases.

c) Another interesting thing is , SC has got rid of some of Zia amendments which affected the judiciary iteself like declaring Shariat Court equilenet to High Court.

In Al-jehad trust case , SC held that Shariah court is not equilent to HC and a judge of HC can't be transfered to HC without his conscent. Under this ruling , certain judges like Justice Nasir Aslam Zahid who were dumped to Shariah court (since they fell out of favour with govt) returned to their Hight courts and were later on elevated to SC.

Doesn't seem interesting---Aalif Laaila

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 7:54 #
wantinsaf
Member

Nothing new in the artilce!
This is what I have been reading by a small portion of our society who has been very much influenced by West.To them solution to all of our problems lie in following West blindly.Pakistan is Pakistan and it has to be original.It has its own culture and religion which differentaites Pakistan from all the other contries in World be it a Muslim country or non Muslim.
We need to show our originality to find solution to our problemes rather than following others blindly.
As far as secularism is concerned,it's all about finding a way for making sins like drinking,partying,consensual sex and womanizing legal in the society so that people fond of such things don't become bads in the eyes of others.
As far as Zia is concerned,firstly Islam doesn't have anything to do with him and secondly he used Islam for his personal gains.Had he been a good Muslim,Pakistan would have become a nice place to live.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 9:10 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Wantinsaf

Firstly, secularism is certainly no western invention. In fact one of the earliest thriving secular states in the world was Ashoka's Mauryan dynasty right here in the subcontinent.

Anyhow i also believe you completely misundestand the concept of secularism. A secular country does not outlaw piety and endorse vice. It does not deny it's citizens complete freedom to follow their beliefs.

Those of us who wish for a secular state are only echoing the wishes of pakistan's greatest leader. Now i'm sure you consider him to be "influenced by the west" but then again he created a muslim nation.. go figure.

It is complete nonsense to think that secularism in Pakistan will look anything like secularism in the West. Secularism is a CONCEPT, not a governmental model.

It is a concept that afford equal rights to all citizens irrespective of class, gender, race, ehtnicity or religion. It is a concept where subjective perceptions of the afterlife do not influence the execution of justice.

How we implement those in Pakistan is up to us. I would even go as far as saying that Sharia is Secular. It is a system of laws and regulations that treat all citizens equally while giving them their individual rights to religion and belief. Isn't that what Islamic law is supposed to assure all citizens of an Islamic state?

And btw.. there is nothing blind about secularism. It is prejudiced religious legislation that is blind because it brooks no opposition.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 10:07 #
wantinsaf
Member

@HKBAJWA
You seem to be naive who has never understood the reason behind protmoting secularism.
Ashoka has never used the word secularism,can you provide us any proof?Do you even know which language he spoke?Can you please tell me the word he used for secularism in his own language?
Secularism has come into practice by atheists.As they could never say that society should promote atheism so they resorted on term 'secularism' for the sake of promoting atheism.How many so called secualr Muslims spoke whenever blashemy happened?None of them spoke.
Can you please give me even a single statement where Quaid said "I am secualr"?To people like as he didn't have beard so he was secualr.How can I say Quaid was westernied when he got us indpendence from West.Congress since its inception was using the term secularism,on the other hand MUSLim League never used this term.
All India Muslim League never wanted a state which had ' Khilafat system' which is the only available Islamic model to run society politically.
At the same time All India Muslim League never wanted a country which should be secular in its nature.
Like Islam,pakistan too was supposed to give freedom to minorities.My question to you,Where does Islam say that minorities don't have liberty to follow their religion?
Quaid wanted a Pakistan where we can live our life according to our culture and respective religion not a country where we could follow others .

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 11:20 #
RajputPuttar
Member

WantInsaf Bahi,

2/3 thousand years ago , secularism word might not have existed but it was pretty much practicied.

Quaid , in his land mark speech of 11 Aug 1947 , his first as head of state , quite distictly seprated state & religion.

What else u want ?

Would u like to comment on the points i raised in my first message on this thread.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 11:24 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Wantinsaf

that's exactly why i took pains to explain to you that "secularism" is a CONCEPT

as a concept it has been known by many names but all secular systems have had one thing certain things in common

1) no single theology dominates the rights of other theologies
2) a citizen's rights are defined by his citizenship and not qualified by his religious, ehtnic or cultural affiliation
3) all citizens are considered equal in the eyes of government irrespective of affiliation

Of course Ashoka didn't call it secularism, but in practice his state was secular. Though he was a buddhist himself he allowed all other religions to practice and preach freely without prejudice and members of all faiths made up his administration. That makes it secular.

And Jinnah was MOST CERTAINLY secular. He believed in complete equality and complete religious freedom for all citizens of pakistan. That makes him secular.

And you clearly also missed my point saying that True Shariah is SECULAR because it incorporates all of the above mentioned points.

But mullahs will tell you that any system where minorities recieve equal rights and any system where citizens are free to pursue and preach their religion is "secular", "western" and "morally corrupt". Their Shariah is prejudiced against non-muslims, treats citizens unequally and thus is IMMORAL.

the only morally defensible Shariah is Secular Shariat. It's not as crazy as it sounds.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 11:30 #
wantinsaf
Member

@HKBAJWA
Why are we then using word 'secularism'?
Why are not we voicing for true Islam?
The problem lies with us.Why have we left religion on Mullas.The less society takes interest in understanding and practicing relgion,the more Mullas would be able to use religion in their interests.
There are two reasons which I believe are creating few self created issue
1-Use of selective Islam
2-Leaving religion on Mullas.
If we all follow Islam in true spirit,how on earth Mullas could become the owner of religion.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 11:37 #
RajputPuttar
Member

wantinsaf Bahiya

"Why are not we voicing for true Islam?"

This might be your understanding of islam and there are a lot of people who don't concur to your understanding ? What to do with those ?

Bahi,

Thats why understanding of religion is personal issue and my understanding is not binding on u and vice versa. Everyone has a right to study , understand and interpret islam for himself and only he himself is answerable for his understanding to 'GOD' only.

HOw can u claim that your understanding of islam is the 'TRUE ISLAM' ?
or

How can u refute my understanding of islam is not the 'TRUE ISLAM' ?

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 11:47 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

wantinsaf,

"""Why are we then using word 'secularism'?
Why are not we voicing for true Islam?"""

>>>

Becoz

1- There's not a single Islam, there are infacts many Islams eg. Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Deobandi Islam, Wahabi Islam, Ismaili Islam, Barelvi Islam and Ahmedi Islam etc etc !
2- A considerable population of Pakistanis who call themselves muslim, doesn't want a Theocratic Pakistan. eg. PPP, MQM, ANP, JSQM, PKMAP, WPP and TPP want Pakistan to be a secular state !
3- All Pakistanis are not Muslims !
And non-muslim population of Pakistan want equal rights i.e. they want a secular Pakistan !
4- There are considerable Pakistanis who are Muslim by name but in fact they are either agnostic or atheist like me and they want Pakistan to be secular state as well !

P.S. Plzzzz tell us what's your definition of 'true Islam' ???

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 11:49 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Wantinsaf

Before all people can follow the true spirit of Islam they have to be given the freedom to do so. That is what the purpose of Pakistan was according to Jinnah.

that freedom starts with the right to interpret and define Islam according to one's own conscience. This will invariably result in many many disagreements to begin with but through openness and debate a consensus may be reached and peace will reign. But if there is a theocratic state trying to impose one specific interpretation ont he rest of the population, the muslims will be robbed of a basic right to define their own religion. In a secular state they will have the inalienable right to do so. Islam allows for individuals to use their own hearts and minds to understand the Quran and thus a secular state that ensures them this right will be an islamic state in practice and not just in name as Pakistan is currently.

Yet here in pakistan individuals do NOT have the choice to understand the Quran and Sunnah according to their own conscience. This has only led to greater RIFTS in the ummah because each sect considers it their right and moral duty to impose their understanding on others. This not only creates animosity and anger, but distracts muslims from those things that are common and instead puts focus on all the differences.

There is much lamnting the fragmentation of the ummah, but i can assure you that those who laments the most are the ones who are guilty of further creating further fragmentation.

Mullah need to be taken out of the equation and people allowed to practice their religion as they are entitled to. The sooner our legislation, perception of law and its jurisdiction catches up to this reality the sooner our nation will progress.

Posted 2 years ago on 09 Mar 2010 11:58 #
wantinsaf
Member

@HKBAJWA
We are discussing a very critical issue which leaves a great impact on our life.
Yes,the individuals should be given complete freedom to at least try to understand the religion.But the problem is we look for personal gains in everything be it religion or any social issue.This all eventually leads to practicing selective Islam.
I again would point out a serious problem with our society is that we have left religion on Mullas.Unless or untill we all don't take religion as something primary we wont be able to solve problems where religion is miused for personal gain.
How many of us know what Surah tauba is about?Do we really know what Surah Maida is about?
I feel really irritating when I find people taking religion as something secondary.Money can be taken as something secandory but not religion i.e Islam for Muslims.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:24 #
wantinsaf
Member

@RajputPutter
I nowhere claimed that what I understand about Islam is true Islam,did I?
It is a bit funny that those who claim that religion is something personal are even unfaimiliar with what Surah Anfaal is about?They even don't understand the language Quran has been revealed.More pathetic than that is,they are even not trying to learn Arabic.Learning Arabic is a fist step to develop your personal understanding about Islam and Quran.
Difference of opinion is a natural phenomena but we differ saying that religion is something personal without even putting a small effort to study any Surah of Quran.This is where problem comes.If we differ after having done research on Quran,that's something good but this is not how we differ.
As I said earlier not to leave religion on Mullas and this is how we can make society peaceful,happy and prosperous.
Unfortunately we take religion as something secandory.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:34 #
javedsheikh
Members

This topic has been discussed earlier.
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/the-president-of-a-secular-state

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:40 #
wantinsaf
Member

@LaiBichoo
1-There is just one Islam.Difference comes when we had left religion on certain indivduals like Maulan Fazal Ur Rehman,Maududi,and Tahir Ul Qadri to name a few.Nevertheless,still the basic of Islam remains the same regardless of any sect.Medial Science varies with doctors(different doctors suggest different solution to one disease),should we leave medical sceince?
Difference of opinion is a natural phenomena.
2-I don't know what theocratic Islam is.What I know is everyone should consider Islam as something primary.
3-As far Islamic Justice and rights system is concerned,it gives equal rights and freedom to followers of other religions.There are many stories during Muhammed's era when decision were made in favour of jews against Muslims.
4-hat shows how much they are afraid of showing their true face to Muslim dominated society.
True Islam is a long discussion and it requires thorough understanding of Islam.I am just an ordinary student of Islam unfortunately.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:44 #
Anti Pakistan
Member

@Hqbajwa
@Wantinsaf

The name of Pakistan is Islamic Republic of Pakistan,

And u r talking about Islam, There is no islam in Pakistan

Let me tell u somthing about Islam.

Islam doen't mean u pray five time a day, or u do zakat or Hajj,

Islam means a practical system based on the principle of Quran and Sunnat of Prophet.

Pakistan is still lacking Islam, People of Pakistan may be muslim but there is not Islam in Pakistan.

People of Pakistan are living under bristish base system of goverment.

And many people still think that they r living in Islamic country like Pakistan

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:54 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Psycho
You are right to some extent.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 11:02 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

wantinsaf,

"""1-There is just one Islam.Difference comes when we had left religion on certain indivduals like Maulan Fazal Ur Rehman,Maududi,and Tahir Ul Qadri to name a few.Nevertheless,still the basic of Islam remains the same regardless of any sect."""

>>>

Nahi Bhai there's not an Islam, there are in fact dozens of Islams !
How much you know about differences between Sunnis & Shias, Deobandis & Barelvis, or Ahmedis and Sunnis ?
Have you forgotten what happened on last 12th Rabi-ul-Awal in D I Khan and Faisalabad ?
How much you know about Jang-e-Sifeen, Jang-e-Naharwan, and Jang-e-Jamal ?

====================

"""Medial Science varies with doctors(different doctors suggest different solution to one disease),should we leave medical sceince?"""

>>>

lolzzz
You are comparing religion with medical science :))
Have you ever heard doctors of chest deseases declaring Kafir other doctors say belonging to heart specialits community of doctors ? :))
Do doctors kill each other by sending suicide bombers in operation theatres ? :))

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 11:02 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

wantinsaf,

"""2-I don't know what theocratic Islam is.What I know is everyone should consider Islam as something primary."""

>>>

I never talked about 'theocratic Islam' :))

I'm quoting below my second point for your convenience !

"2- A considerable population of Pakistanis who call themselves muslim, doesn't want a Theocratic Pakistan. eg. PPP, MQM, ANP, JSQM, PKMAP, WPP and TPP want Pakistan to be a secular state !"

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 11:03 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

wantinsf

"""3-As far Islamic Justice and rights system is concerned,it gives equal rights and freedom to followers of other religions."""

>>>

No sir that's not correct !
Can a Hindu become President of Islamic Republic of Pakistan ?

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 11:08 #
RajputPuttar
Member

Wantinsaf

This is from your message

"
Why are we then using word 'secularism'?
Why are not we voicing for true Islam?
The problem lies with us.Why have we left religion on Mullas.The less society takes interest in understanding and practicing relgion,the more Mullas would be able to use religion in their interests.
"

What does it imply ? My understanding is that the understanding of islam that u have is the 'true islam' .

Secondly , u have give a long lecture on learning arabic and all that stuff, again its your understanding that its required to learn arabic to understand islam.

Bahi ,

"aapna aaqeeda naa chooroo dosron kaa naa cheero."

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 13:09 #
javedsheikh
Members

Every child on the Earth is born as secular.
Society confines that child into a compartment of Faith.
In a society composed of various Faiths, the State should not enforce a particular Faith as a Uniform System of Governance without a consenses of opinion.
In Pakistan, majority of the population, so many times, has rejected the Concept of Theocracy.
Secularism is not denial of religion, but it is a tendancy to respect and tolerate all of the religions, flourishing in a State.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 13:56 #
LiberalKarachi
Member

For all those advocating Caliphate system, first at least unite the Muslims on the theological fronts. If you can't even do that, then how can u expect to be able to unite them on a political or diplomatic front, which is a million times more controversial? Sunnis, Shias, Salafis, Deobandis, etc. cannot currently co-exist under the same theological roof, so if u really want to rule by theology (Sharia), u'd have to, as the very first step and test of ur ability, unite them all. Otherwise, there will be marginalisation, dictatorship and a bloodbath.

Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 16:46 #
wantinsaf
Member

@RajputPutter
The questions I raised in my comment were in reference to another comment typed by HKBAJWA where he wrote down that secularim is similar to Sharia.And I in reslut just asked him to use the word 'Islam' rather than 'secularism'.
How can we understand Quran when we are little or no familiar with Arabic?
If we common Muslims don't learn Arabic,that means religion has been left on a certain of society(Mullas) and they would get liberty to mould it the way they want.
I didn't talk about your belief what I say is put your efforts to learn Islam.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 6:28 #
wantinsaf
Member

@javedSheikh
Your comment shows how little you know about Islam and our society.
God in Quran says 'Every child naturally are born being Muslim'.And then it's society which makes it jews,or atheist,or christian or Hindus.
According to all the surveys more than 80% people prefer Sharia over democracy.
Please check out
IRI 2009
Gallop 2009
In elections nowhere it is asked whether they want Sharia or democracy.Pakistan's election system is totally flawed, and due to these flaws corrupts like zardari,Sharif and others get elected.Does that mean people want corruption.
For understanding pakistan's election system check out
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/election-system-of-pakistan

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 6:35 #
wantinsaf
Member

@leberalKarachi
Your comment makes a lot of sense.yes we all the Muslims should put efforts to get united and live life according to Allah's teaching.
But unfortunately,a small portion of society in all the Muslim countries is ruling them which is corrupt,conciousless,incompetent and westenrized.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 6:39 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

wantinsaf,

"""According to all the surveys more than 80% people prefer Sharia over democracy.
Please check out
IRI 2009
Gallop 2009"""

>>>

And still Tanga Party contesting By-elections and also losing, kiya yeh khula tizaad nahi :)))

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 6:40 #
LalBichoo
Blocked

wantinsaf,

"""God in Quran says 'Every child naturally are born being Muslim'.And then it's society which makes it jews,or atheist,or christian or Hindus."""

>>>

In that way it's the society which makes a child muslim too :)))

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 6:44 #
zia m
Member

Secularism is widely misunderstood in Pakistan.It does not mean freedom from religion, it stands for freedom of all religions.One is free to practice any religion they wish.I don't see anything wrong with being fair and just to every citizem of the country.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 8:01 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Zia m
There are two paths for Pakistan
1-Adopt secularism
2-Adopt Islam
Both can bring results but ideal Pakistan can only be materialized by following Islam.
What we have done in past is we have either followed selective Islam or selective secularism.
Secularism doesn't come natural to Pakistan as we are naturally strongly inclined towards Islam and public has always stood for Islam whenever it has been used or misused.
We need to be original as our culture and religion when combined differentiate us from other countries.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 11:33 #
pappu
Member

Any system that gives human rights and freedom to a human being is a good system. I am for whichever system empowers more people and raises the quality of life for them.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 11:54 #
RajputPuttar
Member

wantinsaf

Islam ko apnnaey kaay chakar mein hi tu yeh din deekna par rahey haain.

In western world , we don't need police to offer prayer but in pakistan becaz we have made islam / religion a public issue and since its public issue everyone wants his version of islam.

Allah allah khai salla.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 12:07 #
javedsheikh
Members

"God in Quran says 'Every child naturally are born being Muslim'."

What about those children born before the advent of Islam?

****************

"According to all the surveys more than 80% people prefer Sharia over democracy."

According to all the surveys more than 90% population of the World respects but doesn't practice religion.

******************

"Pakistan's election system is totally flawed,"

The very creation of Pakistan in 1947, was through the same election system.
Out of 193 countries at the Globe, more than 150, follow the election system to elect the government.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 12:10 #
achtung
Member

i not understand if every children born is muslim then why parent teach him islam?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 12:20 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Achtung

Because people in today's world think that Islam is the dogma that 1400 years of mullahism has created.

Actually what parents are required to teach children is to be good and decent humans. Instead of teaching them values, parents teach them rituals.

If parents actually started teaching their children proper values rather than mullah dogma, then there would be no issue.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 14:33 #
zia m
Member

wantinsaf,you stated..
There are two paths for Pakistan
1-Adopt secularism
2-Adopt Islam
Both can bring results but ideal Pakistan can only be materialized by following Islam."

Pakistan is not a homogeneous society, we have lot of different versions of Islam unlike Iran or Saudi Arabia.
It is not practical to have different laws for sunnis and shias.
We should adopt our Founding Father's ideology.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 14:59 #