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A virus on pkpolitics

(34 posts)
  1. The Hindus often complain of the isolation and exclusiveness of a gang or a clique and blame them for anti-social spirit. But they conveniently forget that this anti-social spirit is the worst feature of their own Caste System.

    The literature of the Hindus is full of caste genealogies in which an attempt is made to give a noble origin to one caste and an ignoble origin to other castes. It has gone deeper and has poisoned the mutual relations of the sub-castes as well.

    An anti-social spirit is found wherever one group has interests of its own that shuts it out from full interaction with other groups, so that its prevailing purpose is protection of what it has got. This anti-social spirit, this spirit of protecting its own interests is as much a marked feature of the different castes in their isolation from one another as it is of nations in their isolation.

    This is why Hindus are not increasing anymore rather Hinduism is nothing more than the sick man of India dying; a victim of its very own caste system.

    Instead of taking it as a lesson, we the post partitioned sub continental Muslims have adopted this caste system-a muslim version, to such an extent that none of us, when asked would identify him/herself as a Muslim but as a Wahabi, Deobandi, Barelvi, Shia; the rootcause of our infighting and continued division.

    For instance, if one is a Wahabbi or a Deobandi, for both the Barelvi leader Ahmad Raza Khan stated that both these groups are 'murtadd and kafir.

    The Barelvi leader had issued this fatwa (verdict) against the Deoband and the Wahabbi groups as some three hundred Sunni ulama of the entire Muslim world did the same. They stated that: have given this fatwa unanimously that the Wahabbia/Deobandi sects are among extreme apostates and infidels. Indeed they are infidels of such hue that any one who does not regard them as infidels is also counted among the infidels and his wife will become automatically divorced in such a situation. Any progeny from such a marriage will be illegitimate and can claim no inheritance under Muslim law.

    In a similar fatwa issued by the Mufti and Imam of the Ka'aba and the Muftis of Medina, the Wahabbis have been declared disbelievers and apostates. The edict issued by them declares: The Wahabbis, in the unanimous opinion of the divines of Mecca and Medina are disbelievers and apostates from Islam such that anyone who comes to know of their cursed writings and speeches and still doubts in their being disbelievers, himself becomes a disbeliever.

    The Deobandi and Wahabbi ulama have issued similar fatwas against the Barelvis. For instance, Maulvi Sayyid Muhammad Murtaza of Deoband denounced Ahmad Raza Khan, the leader of Barelvi's as a murtadd, a dadjaal of the century and a great kafir and excluded him from the pale of Islam.

    Of the famous mullahs, Maudoodi, whose ideas are swallowed by many gullible people, particularly in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, Bangladesh and other countries. This Mullah did nothing for Islam but to create another division among Muslims. He rejected many so-called authentic Hadiths and surprisingly accepted many weak hadiths that suited his needs.
    This virulent strain of caste system has claimed some on pkpolitics, effecting both the social and religious vitalities of its members.

    The only known vaccine for the stricken:

    The Noble Koran 3:105 - Do not be like those who became divided and disputed, despite the clear proofs that were given to them. For these have incurred a terrible retribution.

    The Noble Koran 6:159 - Those who divide themselves into sects does not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.

    God Almighty says that those who break their religion and make into sects and groups they have no relation with Islam or prophet means they are not Muslims (6:159).

    May this only cure prove effective, upon those suffering that there are no more Wahabbis, Deobandis, Barelvis, Shia, moudodias, kaley angriz etc on pkpolitics…….so that our debates or discussions may have a positive outcome. A’amin.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Jun 2009 19:49 #
  2. Aaameeeen!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Jun 2009 19:51 #
  3. nagatorpun
    Member

    **** all the sects are Haram.....There was no sect till the khilafa of H Ali..
    Believing any of these false prophets(ulema) and specially the big ones from old days is mental unstablility...

    You know most of these were paid employees of kings(called khalifas) to legitimize their rule...

    I am sick that we don't have enough guts to read into our history and find out the culprits who created these divisions.

    Wahabis are the newest and worst fitna of all.. But others are not better then this... Every firqa has some hideous past which they try to hide...

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Jun 2009 20:20 #
  4. Potohari
    Blocked

    I think having sects is quit natural process in every religion let alone Islam. As humans don't have same mind sets with time the same interpretation leads to different dimensions. Having sect isn't problem, but intolerance is.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Jun 2009 20:23 #
  5. nagu:

    yes, you are absolutely correct that we should investigate how and who started all this...

    but guess what non of these man worshippers will ever come forward to do a proper research instead they will call you a shia, sunni or qadyani or hindu agent!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Jun 2009 20:26 #
  6. Personality cult is on rampage among us. We are impressed by and follow blindly religious and political personalities. Islam is Islam and we as its followers are muslims, only muslims and nothing else....

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Jun 2009 20:30 #
  7. zingaro
    Member

    semirza.. Alhamdu Lillah..i don't belong to any sect and am proud to be called only as a Muslim ..But being a student of Islamic history I must ask you to provide the proofs here about Fatwa by Ahmad Raza Khan and Mecca/Madina Ulema about Wahabi sect ... Especially you have to provide the Fatwa of Mecca/Madina Ulema.
    My forefathers belonged to Brailvi sect but i am not and i have studied them. Is there any one who can answer the book "Brailviat" by Ehsan Elahi Zaheer ? Just find that book and read that and then answer ...

    Deoband and Brailvi belong to same school of thought i.e. Hanfi. The only difference is worshipping graves and calling others for help instead of calling to Allah directly. At this point Deobandis stand similar to Ahl-e-Hadith ..but otherwise they are very rigid and sometimes biased Hanfi.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 8:06 #
  8. NNL
    member

    I also was suprised when I read Imame-e-Kaaba's fatwa on Wahabis.
    But then i figured that teh post was satorical in nature and the point conveyed is in the last 2 paras.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 8:12 #
  9. @zingaro
    How the heretic sects deviate not only in matter of haram and halal,but also in matter of shirk and Tawhid:
    http://www.amislam.com/kalam.htm

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 15:57 #
  10. Potohari
    Blocked

    @semirza I am astonished by your label deviant sects, I am not sure what to say, given you seem an educated individual. I think every sect in every religion bases it's fact on being prosecutor, judge and jury and that ought to change if one has to make sense of humanity. Most religious people look down on other religious people just because they were born in a family with different thinking than them. Religion can be cause de celebre appearently it is more cause of contention.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:02 #
  11. @Potohari
    'I think every sect in every religion bases it's fact on being prosecutor, judge and jury and that ought to change if one has to make sense of humanity'.

    I cannot add more as you have already stated the root cause of the problem-prosecutor, judge and jury.

    Pls note that I am not against the research by Hanfi, Malki, Sha'afi etc as these pios people had only tried to explain Islam and never intended that muslims be split in sects named after them, and hate each other to such an extent that they feel no remorse at all in cutting eachothers throats.

    It is my very own humble understanding to seek the good from all such great Imams of Islamic research but prefer to be called a muslim only.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:20 #
  12. Potohari
    Blocked

    What do you think about shia they account for 20% of Pakistani population? do you think we should forcefully change their religion or behead them? To be honest in our area Shia account for 30-40% of population, and I have loads of Shia friends and religion wasn't a problem in our lives. We have to tolerate Shia and respect whatever they beleive in, I can assure you even if evey known Shia is killed in Pakistan, which will be murder on unprecedent l;evel I mean killing 30 million people. Shia will be in other countries, lets try to be plural than isolationist in our thought.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:24 #
  13. @Potohari
    Shia follow Islam, are muslims; its we who have created labels and prefer being labeled. Why should I even think of forcefully changing anyones beliefs as long as one follows the fundamentals of Islam. I take this in a different way that the Shia are those muslims who commemorate 'Ahl al Bait' more than others. What is wrong in this?

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:34 #
  14. NNL
    member

    Semirza i m actually surprised at the link you have posted.

    Shiekh Al-Albani (ra) a Khaddaab.

    Astafghirullah.

    Damn thats pure sectarian bs promoting there.

    Kalam people have nothign to do better then i guess.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:39 #
  15. Potohari
    Blocked

    I am not religious guy nore I am against Shias. Infact one of the best chums I had was Shia, though they were poor but sweet and honest. I was reading "The Yacoubian Building" by egyptian
    writer Alaa al-Aswany, who states that as Shia are always the religion of opposition in Muslims thats why it is more ethical and understand needs of commoners, while Sunnis are/were religion of rulers, thus their jurispreudence is away from the commoner's lives, I kind of agree with that. I think plural society is the way forward.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:40 #
  16. NNL
    member

    Oh Seriously Semirza

    What do you think of the Additions in the Kalima and then their extent to call the First 3 companions as the violaters and the munafiqun refered to in the Holy Quran.

    Not starting a sectarian debate but seriously just cos you dont agree with other people you call them kaafirs and when they put the same label at you you all whine like .......(insert your own expeletive here)

    Arent you doing the same that you accuse other people off.

    Lol

    Ironic innit.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:43 #
  17. @NNL
    If they do so than they are gravely mistaken, and by the way I do not call or consider anybody kafir till one refutes 'Kalima i Shahadah'in its original form.

    On the other hand if anybody hates me on grounds that I am not following their versions, or refute their excessions than I leave it upto them. Debate is a debate and if I am wrong somewhere, pls point it and I will do accept it with an open heart and mind.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:56 #
  18. zingaro
    Member

    Semirza...i have read the link completely .. and ask you one question .. should we not be honest in our decision and studies? Just go at the end of this article which says a Fatwa before three centuries about Wahabism ... my God .. such a big lie and the site owner did not have shame to write it ..

    The person Mohammad ibn Abdul Wahab was born in 1703 and he started his movement in 1740. For Allah's sake can it be possible that a fatwa is issued before 300 years ago against them? Simply add 1740+300=2040. Is that write traveled in future time? Secondly the word wahabism was itself created in British time .. be honest .. how it is possible that people knew about the word Wahabi before British and what was the year ... I am not a Wahabi and Alhamdu Lillah a simple Muslim but please don't try to mitigate the history ...

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:59 #
  19. Potohari
    Blocked

    I don't know if my shia friends gave me the impression that I was a Kafir, though I willn't mind if they say that. lol. I think most Shia don't think Sunnis as none Muslims, there can be fringe Shia who are extremists but I haven't come across them. If someone calls me a Kafir, he should know I own a shirt labelled "infidal". lol. Great shirt though.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 16:59 #
  20. Potohari
    Blocked

    Above all if they take you as Kafir it is their problem not yours, don't you think. If they say that to agitate you then be good to yourself and try not to get annoyed.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:00 #
  21. The only reason why I started this post was to simply highlight the labels of Moududism, Whabbism, Bralvies used extensively on this forrum. Why not we prefer to call others and ourselves only simple muslims. Zingaro, your calculation is correct, and I am not trying to mitigate history at all. The way you brothers like NNL, Potohari and Zingaro are discussing your way is healthy and knowledgable. At least we are not hurling abuse at eachother instead of proving our point. I believe you understand my intentions.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:14 #
  22. Potohari
    Blocked

    Religion should be a private matter in Pakistan. amin

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:16 #
  23. zingaro
    Member

    I got your point semirza... and thanks for also understanding me.. I believe that if we all agree to be called simply Muslim .. many of the problems will be finished...

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:18 #
  24. NNL
    member

    @semirza
    nahin yaar the point is that we all hate the labels. So far all the good scholars i have met and talked to in the end they all said the same thing. DOnt you use the labels dont call anyone Kafir as its not your job and its not even Islamic.

    Just pray for them to Allah for His Mercy and Hidaayah.

    Thats pretty much it.

    IF he is hated for that then well Allah is the Final Authority and THE DECIDER.

    I appreciate those people who are willing to learn and have open minds but just going straight way and labeling people doesnt make them better but infact makes them more look like fools.

    The Kalam people and the Wahabis/Salafis have had numerous debates and arguments. And to be honest what the scholars talk about is very intricate and very very 'bareek' for lay people to understand i.e when they go into the detailed discussions.

    All Abdul Wahab (ra) did was eradicate the grave worshipping in Saudia and that has led him to be the pretty much the hated person by rest of the grave worshippers.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:19 #
  25. Potohari
    Blocked

    On the point of simple muslims, I haven't come across anyone who calls themselves simple muslims without connotations. Most religious people are control freaks.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:20 #
  26. zingaro
    Member

    I tell u an incident.. Once I offered prayer in a mosque in Pakistan. When i had finished, i sat with some friends in mosque and a known person came to us. We were talking on religion and then the man asked us who are you?I said a Muslim. He said no i am asking about your sect. I replied Sir I am sectless :) I am a Muslim and that is enough. He said no you must have a sect otherwise on judgment day how will u be recognized? lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:24 #
  27. NNL
    member

    Arey guys you cant imagine the normal debates we have in our household. Mixed Shia Sunni. Maternal Shia Paternal side Sunni. lol

    The best thing that our elders did with us was that they said you choose your own and understand on your own and then decide we forcing you wouldnt be logical. we have provided you the education and the means to understand. what you choose to do is your own decision.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:24 #
  28. I thank you all for the insight. Very well said. We should prey for them to Allah for His Mercy and Hidaaya. Here in the middle east, grave worshipping is one of the many accusations we face from the nonmuslim expat community.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:25 #
  29. Potohari
    Blocked

    That attention seeker wanted to attest your prayers. lol. Ho w come you talked to god without my permissions. lol

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:26 #
  30. When questioned in the grave we will be asked 'Shahada' and not the sects we belong.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:29 #
  31. Potohari
    Blocked

    No one from my family came back, what question they ask, speculations are they malltreat people. lol

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:30 #
  32. zingaro
    Member

    NNL that is interesting ....i grew in mix of Brailvi and Deobandi .. :) but yours is more interesting ...

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 17:32 #
  33. NNL
    member

    oh trust me after all the bickering and fighting during Muharram and the fights over Niaz and what Matam you cant imagine the fights we have had.

    @Semirza.
    The issue with Kalam people is of anthropomorphism
    Here is the example of the discussions between Salafis aka shiekh Uthmayin, Ibn Baz, Albani and Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) and the Kalam scholars.

    There are several references to Allah's Hands in the Quran.
    i.e In the verse, "And the sky We built with hands; verily We outspread [it]" (Qur'an 51:47)

    Now the Kalam people say that When Allah says that HANDS means HIS POWER.

    The salafis disagree and say that Allah is not restricted in shape or form as our limited imagination percieves things to be.
    So when Allah refers to HIS HANDS in the Quran. It means HANDS. period.

    Now the Kalam people say IF ALLAH has HANDS then HE MUST HAVE LIMBS. (astagfirullah)

    But the Salafis/Wahabis say why limit the Power of Allah(SWT) into Limbs of Humans. like why consider Allah's HAnds as the hands of Humans.

    HEre the Kalam people say you are making issues and attributing things to ALlah.

    The Salaf say we taking things as Allah has said them. We dont know what His Hands are like no one knows that. WE dont believe that His HAnds are like ours.

    The entire argument lies in the interpretation of the Word Al-Yad which the Kalam people refer it to as Power whereas Salafis believe it as it is.

    The Salafis believe it as it is based on opinions of the early Scholars. such as
    Imam Trimdhi (rahimahullah) said in his Sunan (1/128-129):
    It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth, that there is no tashbeeh (resemblance) to the Attributes of Allah, and our Lord - the Blessed and Most High - descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: "Affirm these narrations, have Imaan (faith) in them, do not deny them, nor ask how." The likes of this has been related from Malik ibn Anas, Sufyan ath-Thawri, Ibn Uyainah and Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth: "Leave them as they are, without asking how." Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from the Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is tashbeeh! However, Allah the Most High, has mentioned in various places in His Book, the Attribute of al-Yad (Hand), as-Sama' (Hearing), and al-Basr (Seeing) - but the Jahmiyyah make ta'weel of these ayaat, explaining them in a way, other than how they are explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: Indeed, Allah did not create Aadam with His own Hand - they say that Hand means the Power of Allah.

    Abu'l-Hasan al-Ash’ari (rahimahullah), stated:
    If we affirm these attributes for Allah, which the intellects, language, Qur’an and consensus indicate, it does not obligate that they are created. For that reason, it is not permissible for His Attributes what is permitted for the creation’s attributes. [Abu’l-Hasan al-Ash’ari, Risalah ila Ahl ith-Thaghar: p. 218]

    And some of Jahmiyah claimed that the meaning of his saying “Allah created Adam with His (two) hand” is “His power”, so he claimed that “the yad” means power, and this is from changing (words) also, and it is ignorance of the Arabic language , and power is called in the Arab’s language “Al-ayd” not “al-yad” ….. Allah has informed us that he created the heaven (As-sama’) with (Ayd) power, and (al-yad) the hand and (al-yadan) the two hands are different than (al-ayd) power; for if Allah created Adam with ayd like he created the heaven, without favouring the creation of Adam with His (two) hands He (Allah) wouldn’t have said to Iblees: (Allah) said: “O Iblis (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands”[Surah Sa'd:75 – interpretation of the meaning], and there is no doubt that Allah Azza wa Jal has created Iblees (Allah’s curse be upon him) also with His power.

    So as we can a linguistic argument and interpretation of the Quran has led to a fight amongst the Scholars. No matter how minute it is ITS AMONGST THE SCHOLARS. NOT LAYMEN.

    But when the chaylas of these scholars to prove them right start to bicker instead of Zikr things get messy and complicated.

    I hope u understood the example or i made my point clear.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 21:27 #
  34. @NNL
    Thanks brother, it is absolutely clear. Certainly there are clear limits to a human mind, beyond that further reasoning should be taken as forbidden; likewise a mere word 'AnalHaq' caused a certain demise for Mansoor bin Hallaj.

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Jun 2009 21:40 #

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