PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Abortion- Islamic Republic of Pakistan

(73 posts)
  1. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Haris

    You say accept it or leave it... What exactly is IT??

    As always you are talking about accepting Islam as YOU accept it, but there are minimum 1.2 billion different opinions about what Islam entails, how it is understood and how it is implemented, so please tell me... WHICH islam are you speaking of?

    You have one specific perception of Islam , but that perception is far from universal. If it WAS universal you wouldn't be getting so much flak from the other muslims on this site who do NOT consider your perception to be the only "true" perception of Islam.

    Also i suggest you drop you jazbaati tendency to cry "enemy" at anybody you think is going against Islam. Whether a person is going agaisnt Islam is not for you to judge. That is only up to God and i suggest that you develop some humility in your faith also. Only thus will your focus be on your own behaviour rather than on others and only thus can you ever hope to find and spread enlightenment.

    But you are not humble about your faith. You have fanatical pride in your affiliation. With pride in your affiliation you lose contact with the spiritual core of your belief. I suggest you be careful with that.

    I like the fact that you reject all customs and aspects of culture that are against Islam. that is as it should be. However you should think a little deeper and review whther those things you consider as "islamic" aren't just an arabic custom or culture. The line between the tenets of Islam and the cultures in which islam has been accepted is not as clear as you might think.

    For instance.. the degree of purdah observed in arabia (women locked in the home and covered head to toe) is not an Islamic injunction but rather a cultural thing for arabia.

    Back to the topic at hand:

    Abortion is a social evil that cannot be stomped out by legislation. It is merely a symptom of a society where sexual expression, reproductive health, social stigma and a host of other things are the norm. Were it not for the repressed sexuality of pakistanis there would not be so many cases of rape and exploitation. were it not for the social stigma and criminal punishment attached to unwed mothers, so many women might not choose to have dnagerous an unhygeinic abortions. Were it not for the taboo surrounding sexual health and knowledge, unwanted pregnancies would not be as common as they are. The fact that nearly a million women have unsafe abortions in a year is just a symptom of deeper ailments in our society. Trying to stomp it out through legislation will only hide the symptoms but not cure the disease.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 5:41 #
  2. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @hkbajwa: You are wrong. There is only one Islam, that which ALLAH ALMIGHTY sent.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 6:03 #
  3. hkbajwa
    Member

    http://chaymagazine.org/

    check this website out. Finally somebody is making an effort to address sexual issues in pakistan and educate the public. Good show.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 6:28 #
  4. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ haris

    Dude i KNOW there is only one Islam. I'm not disagreeing with that. However that truth is perceived by 1.2 billion people in each their own way. That is why we have sects. That is why people fromt he same sect often disagree vehemently on different topics.

    You perceive Islam is a particular way and that's fantastic. But to assume that everybody is alignment is pure fantasy. There is debate, discussion, conflict, disagreement, and enmity on countless issues. There is only ONE islam, but nobody seems to be able to agree what that single Islam IS.

    Allah Almighty sent only one Islam, but within a few years of the Prophet's(pbuh) demise, conflict appeared regarding what that ONE islam was. That has still to be resolved.

    There is only one Islam but there are 1.2 billion differing opinions about what it is exactly. As long as you keep denying that reality, you will never progress towards enlightenment nor will you ever be able to enlighten others. At best you'll pi$$ them off because you are so quick to condemn, and that does nobody any good either.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 6:37 #
  5. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @hkbajwa: Muslims are around 1.6 billion.

    The disagreements you talk about, come up, when there is lack of knowledge, when justice is absent or biased, when justice is thought of, as blind, which its not in Islam.

    ALL of those 1.6 billion Muslims agree on what the Quran says. Most of them agree on what the Hadees says.

    There is agreement on 96% of Islam even among ALL sects. The remaining stuff is insignificant. We need to implement that 96%. We can worry about disagreements on the remaining 4% later on.

    ALL your claims of confusion, lack of knowledge, division, competition, enmity will vanish into thin air as soon as impartial, across the board, FAST!, non-discriminatory justice returns to this state.

    The problem we face today is, the 96% of Islam which is agreed upon is not being implemented.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 6:47 #
  6. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ haris

    Well i hope you're having a good time in utopia. Of course your assumption that the differences between sects are "insignificant" can be disproved by the sheer number of violent acts that take place in the name of "islam". these acts take place because one group assumes it is "incontrovertibly right" int he way it interprets Islam and denounces any diverging opinions as heresy and thus liable to punishment. Such as you do a lot.

    Impartial, fast and across the board justice will never occurr until and unless the right to divergent opinion and belief is safeguarded. It can only be safeguarded if people like accept the existence of divergent opinions and interpretations and the right of such opinions to exist.

    Unity in the Ummah will come only through an acceptance of its diversity, not through enforced and assumed uniformity.

    1.6 billion minds with each their own personal connection with Allah exist and each has his/her own personal take on Islam. That is a reality you cannot deny.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 7:05 #
  7. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @hkbajwa: Those acts take place, and increase in number because of lack of impartial, across the board, FAST!, non-discriminatory justice that obeys Islam.

    These incidents have more political than religious reasons.

    Difference of opinion, diversity is always! accepted, unless it shows signs of shifting of loyalty from ALLAH ALMIGHTY's camp to any other.

    1.6 billion Muslims might not be aware of teachings, principles, laws, rules of Islam, but their loyalty lies with Islam.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    The only thing missing from Pakistan is impartial, across the board, FAST!, non-discriminatory justice that obeys Islam.

    Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. Pakistan will have Islami Nizam, INSHALLAH.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 7:16 #
  8. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Haris

    First of all there allah has no "camp". God is God to all things in this universe and everything is under his control. One cannot "leave" god's camp.

    I'm sure people leave YOUR camp or other mullahs' camps, but they cannot ever leave God's camp.

    but then again that's the basic problem we have with the mullahs, pundits, priests, reverends, shamans etc etc . As far as they are concerned, THEIR camp is GGOD'S camp and leaving THEIR camp is like leaving GOD'S camp. If this primitive mindset could be erased from humanity we might actually have peace. But as long as there are people dividing God's creation into different "camps" based entirely on subjective definitions and understanding, there will always be war.

    God's camp cannot be entered but by his will and it cannot be left but by his will. And God's camp does not need to punish those who leave or threaten those who don't join.. Only HUMAN camps need to do that.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:21 #
  9. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    I posted the thread where Qazi sb. explained this question about division you speak of and JI, to bring people like you out of less-knowledgeable state.

    But you in your infinite wisdom missed it, most probably :-)

    Why are you bothering me, if you are not willing to learn ?

    P.S. ..and can someone more knowledgeable than me please quote hjbajwa the Ayahs from Quran, or the references of Hadees, so he can learn where ALLAH mentioned of ALLAH's camp ?

    Perhaps brother Salam will help you with it, here.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:31 #
  10. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ haris

    I'm honestly least interested in what a salvation peddler like Qazi has to say. He is a man who's entire power and control over people comes from claiming exclusivity of interpretation. His interpretations are biased and he has a vested interest in having a biased interpretation and denying other individuals from doing the same.

    Anyhow you seem to have completely missed my point regarding allah's camp.

    admission into or exclusion from God's camp is something that only God can do. Not you, not Qazi and not any human being in the world. Since you cannot know who is IN god's camp and who is outside it, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to judge who is "showing signs of leaving allah's camp".

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 10:56 #
  11. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Qazi sb. has no vested interest, other than the betterment of people of Muslim UMMAH. Your statement(s) are baseless as well as false.

    I cannot judge. Yet, I can tell who is and is not inside it. How ? Because I can see 'loyalty' of a human being to;

    (1) ALLAH ALMIGHTY
    (2) Quran
    (3) HIS last Messenger Muhammad (SAW)
    (4) Hadees
    (5) Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW)
    (6) Standards set by Muhammad (SAW)
    (7) Standards set by Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW)

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 11:09 #
  12. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Haris

    Fine fine.. you may admire Qazi all you wish. I find him and all others who gain their influence by meddling with the individual's relationship with God to be distasteful.

    But then again i only have 3500 years of religious exploitation by clergy as reason to form this opinion. Nevertheless you are, of course, welcome to have yours.

    About "loyalty" to the things you mention. Do you seriously believe YOU, a human being as imperfect, as blind, as good and bad as ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET is qualified to judge another person's loyalty?

    Just because you profess to be muslim, does that automatically give you "holy sight"?? Does it give you a direct hotline to God so he can tell you who's loyal and who isn't? Is there any divine involvement in this process of evaluating loyalty.

    Of course there isn't. This ev aluation is simply no more than your personal subjective opinion. Such a personal subjective opinion wouldn't even stand up in a court of law, let alone in the court of allah. Unless you claim to be a prophet or a saint or a man with whom God speaks directly, you are NOT QUALIFIED to pass judgement.

    You affiliation does not qualify you to judge any more than wearing glasses would qualify you to perform eye surgery.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 11:55 #
  13. @ hkbajwa,
    This is just to appreciate something intellectual and well worded coming from your keyboard.
    Your skill to convey the message, politely and through a civilized approach, is commendable.
    I wish wise and balanced scholars like you should stay at the board to educate the community.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 12:27 #
  14. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ javedsheikh

    thank you very much... i have naught but words at my disposal but i aim to wield them like a surgeons scalpel to cut out the cancer of aggression and intolerance where i see them.

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 12:42 #
  15. ajhons
    Member

    hkbajwa Zindabad.Very a few posts are really eye catching and yours is one of them

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 12:44 #
  16. achtung
    Member

    i agree with hkbajwa. allah created all living thing. there fore all living things are under control of allah. all living things in camp of allah. no one can go out from camp of allah. some rejected people played politics with allah also. they make different camp and tell people there camp is allahs camp. allah will ask them on the day of judgement. then they will not able to reply.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 13:27 #
  17. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    My understanding of that which happens in this world stems from my knowledge of;

    (1) Islam
    (2) interactions in real life
    (3) real life experiences
    (4) knowledge of history
    (5) knowledge of past civilizations
    (6) knowledge of how things work today

    Islam teaches a person a lot. I choose to remain within the bounds of Islam. There's plenty of lessons for me in Islam.

    If you choose to negate what Islam teaches us, well, then, all I care/want to say is, best! of luck with your logical self, as well as stuff.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 14:01 #
  18. RajputPuttar
    Member

    Harris

    Better stuff your self with your understanding as well.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 14:06 #
  19. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    I can disprove every theory that you prove with equal vigor and facts, if I want to. But I don't want to waste my time on you.

    Its worthless to engage you.

    @RajputPuttar: You too :-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 14:06 #
  20. hkbajwa
    Member

    @ Haris

    You know what.. thank you for wishing us good luck and good luck to you also. I genuinely mean that.

    You have just exhibited the first ever sign of humility in your faith. Congratulations. Keep this up and you might just become a religious yet tolerant man.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 15:44 #
  21. NNL
    member

    Shimaotree wrote

    For a society which permits abortions for population control yet complains about suicide bombings and terror related deaths of innocent people- well enough said.

    Man you just identified the US Society

    Is that the case.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Mar 2010 15:58 #
  22. After Reading the first few postings, I lost interest in this thread as it become a who is Muslim, who are you? Basically crap of every kind!
    Coming back to the actual thread... Being attached to a medical profession, I can tell u that abortions happens in almost every single hospital of Pakistan. Hospitals are part if this crime which us no doubt carried out by most of the Gynaecologists but not every one. Majority 90% abortions were carried out were for married women (data around mid 90's era) but then there was a significant change in the urban region. Anyone can buy " morning after pill" from any pharmacy in Pakistan and even the majical blue pill is availLable off the counter which us mainly used for extra marital sex or for pre marital sex. The women who seeks abortion were majority with mire then 4 kids ( I apologise that I don't have access to data after 1994) though a growing number was unmarried. Majority if women were of middle & upper middle class including some really religious families. The percentage if women seeking abortion due to medical reason or due to rape was < 10%.
    The abortion figures were highest in Karachi & Lahore as expected.
    Now how to reduce the rate of abortions?
    Simple: Follow QURAN & SUNNAH!

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 0:37 #
  23. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @KHAN_Sahib: This shows, the amount of deterioration we have in our social values.

    Looks like there's no stop to a bloody revolution, is there ?

    ave ka ava hi bigrha hua hai (in urdu)

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 4:42 #

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