PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Afghan Issue

(62 posts)
12

  1. gv
    Member

    and another installment in weird and whacky 'academic' ideas.

    Conflict Resolution in Afghanistan

    - Remove the ISAF
    - Replace with independent third party (non-european/ islam sensitive) peace keeping force - Turkey, China, Egypt spring to mind
    - ISAF members to contribute to a reconstruction budget aimed solely at infrastructure/economy building initiatives to be carried out by the incumbent government
    - Taliban/Mujahideen to be encouraged to enter the political arena as an opposition party to contest in the next general election

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 13:15 #

  2. haider3
    member

    There, gv, I have my own version of the future, meaning let us first see the invaders driven out of the country, then we can talk peace-keeping forces and reconstruction plans. The West will owe millions and millions to Afghanistan in war damages anyway.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 13:32 #

  3. gv
    Member

    @MG

    errm you did notice that my first point is that the ISAF is removed - i'd just rather do it in a collaborative manner as opposed to in a berserker frenzy of head chopping and grisly gore

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 13:50 #

  4. haider3
    member

    gv dear, the point is the head chopping and grisly gore for all they've done to us, to Afghanistan and Iraq and Pakistan and, and, and. Simply removing ISAF troops is not enough. Those of them who remain must be seen to beat a hasty retreat, a retreat for their lives. Then, bang, all the killings will stop overnight and we can discuss your plans for the future of the country, which, by the way, make perfect sense. And don't think I'm bloodthirsty, quite the opposite. But I'm a realist, too. This fight of the Afghan Resistance must be fought to the death. That is what they have sworn to themselves and to God and Muslims worldwide.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 14:00 #

  5. shimatoree
    Member

    gv

    the victory-( when it comes) won on the battlefield does not need an election.
    Those that are fighting and have sacrificed the lives of their families will not sit down with those that collaborated with the invaders . That has to bwe figured in in any future scenario.

    More later.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 14:45 #

  6. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    don't you think there has been sufficient blood letting in this pathetic war..

    @MG

    "Then, bang, all the killings will stop overnight "

    i think its an established fact that killing will just lead to more killing and violence....

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 15:17 #

  7. shimatoree
    Member

    gv

    The issue is not if there has not been enough blood letting- the issue is simply what do you do with those who knowingly and on purpose collaborated with the invaders , sold out their own people and betrayed them.
    And you must take into account the ETHOS of the society of this country -Afghanistan.
    And when you do that- it is not the ethos of the westernzied or Persianized elite of Kabul or those that wnanbe like the West- you have to look at the historical and cultural ethos of the Pushtoon tribes- and that comes to one word- BADAL. Tjhey are not like those in Pakistan where traitors like Musharraf and thives like Zardari can remain

    Let us suppose we follow your stance of forgiveness. It goes against the very being of each and every Pushtoon . Bring in the very existential issue of Ghairat which will follow BADAL.

    And I am only talking of personal matters-the political matters are another thing.

    I could be wrong and quite often I am but in this case- the blood letting WILL happen both on a political level( in Kabul and Kandhar etc) and a personal level( in every village).

    I again come back to my pet political issues of establishing legitimacy and credibility and I do not know if anyone is interested in such matters of substance.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 15:57 #

  8. gv
    Member

    I entirely comprehend and appreciate the concept of Badal -

    However i feel that commentators on Pashtun culture fail to see that applicable as it may be in an inter-village feud - The concept of badal falls apart once you are discussing a nation of 30m people. I.e. where does it stop?

    I am of afghan extraction myself (albeit watered down by a century or so of soft 'persianised' plains living) and i fail to see the positives of this testosterone fuelled macho PAKHTUN chest thumping about valour and honour and PAKHTUNWALI once you apply it to a countrywide scale.

    Also you totally discount the 60% odd non-pakthun ethnic minorities who also happen to live there.....

    It is all well and grand at the small community level - but even in a village where everyone acts the chaudhry - there is no advancement..

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 16:18 #

  9. aftab arif
    Member

    They has been much killing by all factions in Afghanistan, i think the Iranians, Pakistanis and the Saudi intelligence services sit with all groups and find a peaceful solution rather then going back to the mass killings of the early nineties.

    The Afghan's must have the last say but these muslim countries should be seen in playing a positive role for the interests of the comman man in Afghanistan.

    Every one has a role to play and everyone's religious believes and concepts of religion can be accommodated without the need of bloodshed. The Taliban are not entirely innocent when it comes to killing civilians as in most bomb blasts innocent people of Afghanistan have been killed.

    So this concept of badal if applied will lead us down the road of more bloodshed and not peace that we all so desire.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 16:32 #

  10. gv
    Member

    @aftab

    thank you for that refreshing comment.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 16:37 #

  11. haider3
    member

    gv. others, I don't quite know how to put this, but I get the strong feeling that the Afghans have changed over the past thirty years. For one thing, they've discovered technology. They issue their own bulletins on the war daily. Some of the articles they put out are models of their kind. They have lost a lot of their people to refugee camps the world over. These people have or will return bringing a fresh wind with them. So I don't think we need really fear a repetition of what happened in the aftermath of the last war.

    gv did you read an article this morning entitled: McChrystal's Ouster May Embolden Pakistan's Diplomatic Efforts?

    http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/24/mcchrystals-ouster-may-embolden-pakistans-diplomatic-efforts/

    In conclusion, you once wrote a very good sentence somewhere, i.e. Yes, why not Islamic justice? There's a very rich Muslim jurisprudence and an electoral political system. Do you remember? Iqbal also pointed out that democracy, invented by the Parthians, was next taken over by the earliest Muslims. Such a solution for Afghanisan (and also for Pakistan) would be the answer to all our problems. Plus, to start off with, of course, some version of the scenario you suggest above.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 16:49 #

  12. shimatoree
    Member

    gv

    I would have to disgaree with your "TESTOSTERONE macho chest thumping" characterization of Badal.
    Simply put it is their way of life. They do not do it to antagonize you or offend you . They do not care if you or anyone else thinks it is good or bad or evil or inhuman. It is their way. If it leads to more bloodshed- well so what they say.
    Do I agree with their way ? Yes because I AM one of them.

    Also the 60 % of Afghans being Non- Pushtoon is not accurate.

    It is not that anyone supports or promotes the killing that is to come-( there is killing going on now too)- it is that those are the realities on the ground.
    On an intellectual level-(only) to imagine and super impose your own or someone els's WESTOXICATED ideals on a people who have been ravaged -(and to expect them to suddenly behave like the brain washed pseudo-sophisticated masses of the West )- might be nice to think and might make one feel good but try telling that to a Mehsud or a Mangal- you will find out the truth in a hurry.

    My point is not to justify or condone but to express my opinion based on what I know of history and about the nature my uneducated(western) people.
    Offering the other cheek is not their way.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 16:54 #

  13. dildar
    Member

    @gv, aftab

    I am afraid Shimatoree is not advocating BADAL, he is simply explaining the nature of those locals involved in the bloodshed and I am totally agree with him on THIS!!!!!!!!!!
    Of course this is purely my opinion. Shimatoree may care to clarify……

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 17:01 #

  14. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    you are ignoring the fact that the taliban has also been involved in a good deal of killing as Aftab pointed out. So logically everybody should have a surfeit of blood on their hands with which they can issue credit to the forthcoming generations..

    Also can you provide a link substantiating that the 60% number is completely wrong? All the links i found indicate that number should be more or less accurate. (i.e. range of 55-60%)

    Also if the tribal elders are won over to a peaceful collaborative solution would not a collective tribal edict prescribing peace supercede the need for badal.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 17:02 #

  15. shimatoree
    Member

    gv

    I am not ignoring any facts. I have not used the term Taliban- I have only used the name Pushtoon or (Pukhtoon).
    I am simply describing the way things are.
    And your issue of logic in such matters does not work.

    In Afghanistan for the last 30 years- no census has been taken. The numbers that are being bandied around are all different from different parties who for their own reasons want this or that group to appear smaller or larger.

    Due to the 30 plus years of War- the so-called elders do not carry any political clout of substance. That has been taken over by the various Islamist groups most of whom are young and I might add radical.

    A peaceful collaborative solution is not possible and besides it does not solve the issue of BADAL.

    I would only make one recommendation for you and those that agree with your point of view.
    Go to Waziristan or Tirah or Orakzai or Mohmand and talk with the locals about it. And that is in Pakistan. If you really want to know go to Paktia, Paktika or Helmund and talk with the locals

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 19:56 #

  16. LiberalKarachi
    Member

    Excellent suggestions gv and i agree with them all. Another crucial step would be to increase Pukhtun influence in Afghanistan. They are the majority in Afg but are treated as minorities in the current political and military framework. This needs to be changed too.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 20:19 #

  17. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    I'm not ignorant of the underlying cultural implications. I'm also not naïve to think that everyone will hold hands and sing along to 'shiny happy people' once the isaf leaves.

    I'm merely suggesting a way forward which attempts to mitigate the level of bloodshed and chaos you expect to take place because of 'the pakthun way of
    life'.

    Its not necessary that a najibullah situation will take place. I have family working in waziristan they all concur that the tribals are fed up with the war and just want to get on with their lives and build better lives for their children. I have friends from miran shah who say the same thing as do any pakistan based afghan that I have spoken with.

    Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 23:40 #

  18. shimatoree
    Member

    gv

    yes they SAY they want peace and ar fed up with war BUT when it comes to their OWN BADAL- they have a different view. I would like nothing more than your wishes to come true.

    Time will tell. I am very pessimistic and I do not like it but that is coming. That is all I can say at this time.

    Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 0:10 #

  19. semirza
    Moderator

    @gv

    Conflict Resolution in Afghanistan

    -All non Afghans (occupiers) should leave Afghanistan.
    -Do not attempt to change or influence their 'Pakhtoon Identity'.
    -They are not 'savages' of Americas a reason to decimate or eliminate them from the face of the earth under false pretexts.
    -Times are not the same either. No more occupation of countries and elimination of their indigenous populations.

    Before they used words like 'savages' and now they use 'terrorists' without acknowledging the fact that they themselves are the aggressors, illegal occupiers present in a place where they should not be in the first place. And if they are (as occupiers) than let them face the music they deserve..

    Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 20:06 #

  20. gv
    Member

    @semirza

    Sir with all due respect I don't believe you've read my post carefully

    Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 21:38 #

  21. shimatoree
    Member

    If we stop wishful thinking and for a moment and just LOOK at the history of Afghanistan before Najibullah, Taraki, Babrak Karmal and such-

    we shall find that Afghanistan is a country CREATED by Pushtoon Kings by force of arms .
    Yes some of them have been benevolent and just like Amir Dost Mohammad Khan and Zahir Shah but most have either been forced to use or have used violence to control and maintain peace which can best be described as an Afghan peace.
    Just look at the reign of Amir Abdur Rahman Khan and the severe force he used to keep everyone in line.

    At the risk of sounding pompous- I must state that quite a lot of people do not know what they are talking about when they say they are not ignorant of the situation. Knowing does not mean understanding or comprehending or accepting.

    gv- It is not Miran Shah but MiraM Shah and those in Miram Shah are mostly Turi or Bunagsh and mostly Shia and thus their antipathy towards the Sunni Taliban is undretsandable.

    You might have family working in Waziristan but are they Mehsud or Wazir or Dawar ?
    Are you Pushtoon ? If so where are you from ? Did you grow up in the tribal area of Pakistan or the Pushtoon areas of Afghanistan next door ?
    If you are Dawar then obviously you will be towing the line against the Mehsud .
    The point I am making is simple. I will quote from George Santayana-

    Those that do not learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat them.
    And for you one more quote from the same

    Quote " the TRUTH is CRUEL but it can be loved. It makes FREE those who LOVE it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 27 Jun 2010 0:27 #

  22. Shaheen-e-Iqbal
    Member

    Remove the ISAF replacing with independent third party but not without asking the concerned and that is the Afghans.

    ISAF would not be able to contribute once Karzai is out of picture.

    Taliban or Mujahideen are a reaction to foreign occupation. Once this is gone Taliban or Mujahideen will fade away as ordinary Afghan citizens.
    As long as Karzai (A foreign stooge) along with his parliament exists the Mujahideen or Taliban will remain on the scene.

    Posted 1 year ago on 27 Jun 2010 6:28 #

  23. toamin
    member

    key question is whom to pass power & control?? of course capitalist would want to use centuries old policy of divide & rule meaning creat 3 or 4 power centers that are always busy fighting each other and if one center gains too much control other centers can be used to destabilize the first one...

    norther alliance (can be further split to 3 or 4 factions) =1
    pushtoon tribes =2
    taliban? =3
    international force =4
    etc etc

    at the end of the day US/NATO wants to keep power controlled under their factions else all that 10 years of 'investment' would be wasted-

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Jun 2010 5:46 #

  24. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    I'm not claiming to be an expert on all the various nuances of inter-tribal affairs or on Afghanistan at all. I'm merely trying to address what appear to be the glaringly obvious issues.

    What I fail to understand is what exactly are you criticising here? Do you envisage an alternative scenario beyond that of complete chaos and inter-tribal/ inter ethnic warfare ?

    All you appear to be saying is - nothing will work because the pakhtun's (due to their unique cultural idiosyncracies) are doomed to eternal warfare and social destruction?

    I understand if you think my theories are half-baked and inapplicable - but can you provide an alternative way forward?

    @salam/patriot

    Agreed on your points.

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Jun 2010 9:46 #

  25. shimatoree
    Member

    I am not recommending anything. Just describing the situation as it appears to me.( being a native son of the area). I am neither smart enough nor important enough to put forth a solution. Besides no one is listening to what I have to say. Even my brother and my cousins(Tarboor) do not listen to what I might have to say. That is the Pushtoon way of life.

    I do not think your theories are half-baked- on the contrary I think they are FULLY BAKED !
    I think you wish and mean well and I do hope what you are saying does come true because that would be very good.
    But then you-( or anyone else) would have achieved in a very short time what centuries have failed to get done amongst the Pushtoons.
    Is it likely ?
    I do not think so.
    Do I have a magic solution ?
    No.

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Jun 2010 16:02 #

  26. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    understood.

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Jun 2010 16:54 #

  27. Faarigh Jazbati
    member

    Dear all AoA

    the only viable, permanent and perfect solution to problems of afghanistan and Pakistan and inturn for the world is the unification of Pakistan and Afghanistan under the new name Khorasan.

    This new country Khorasan will be stronger, stable and a big power broker in the region. it will have the strongest army and adminstration to quell any internal rebellion and to counter any external aggression from india or any aother foreign force. It will deprive the Taliban for cause to fight, will eliminate al-qaida and will also uproot the drug cancer. This new country Khorasan will have all the resources to make it a very strong country in economic terms and will be a safe corridor for the oil and gas routes from central asia.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Jun 2010 17:54 #

  28. shimatoree
    Member

    Farigh Jazbati

    I will give a detailed reply soon-( to-day)

    Posted 1 year ago on 28 Jun 2010 19:31 #

  29. shimatoree
    Member

    Afghanistan and Pakistan togather ?

    (Isn't it the Zia Ul Haq plan of 1985 ?),
    A strong army and administration- You must be joking. The stories of Zardari and Karzai and their corruption are well known.
    The Pakistan Army cannot control the FATA area now as it is and pray tell me how they will be able to control the Pushtoons of both sides ?

    The people of Punjab will NEVER agree to something like that assuming this pipe dream of your somehow is started by someone. Keep in mind the Pushtoons will be a large minority- almost as big as the whole of Punjab.

    Khorassan ! The name does sound good though. I do hope your pipe dream does come true .

    I for one would like it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 2:58 #

  30. aslam786
    Member

    Well said shimatoree. It is dream of pakistani generals to rule over all pukhtuns, but there designs are failing in FATA as we speak by the blood of wazirs and mahsuds

    As has been proven agaian and again, all the so called "afghan taliban" leaders are in the pocket of ISI, starting with mullah omar down to haqqani who are trained, funded, supplied, handled by ISI bosses.

    How can pukhtuns fighting one enemy (nato), allow to be ruled by another enemy (rouge pakistan army) through proxy? The issue of badal is there and will always be there, but badal is also practiced by those pukhtuns who have suffered from ISI led taliban and their foreign agents.

    All these issues are solvable once foreign influence of ISI, NATO, Iran, Arabs is thrown out of our lands.

    One thing that can never happen is for Pukhtuns to become SLAVES of Tajiks or Punjabis. NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 4:05 #

  31. toamin
    member

    if we think with scope of nationalistic bond then it is difficult to unite different people as everyone thinks he is better than the other, but if we replace the nationalistic bond with ideological bond same way it was done 62 years ago then muslims can be united, there is long history of division/unity but many examples are there-

    zia was a fraud, he fooled people same way mushy fooled people, i think that if time replaced zia with mushy then we would have seen mushy as mard-e-momin and zia as dilightened moderatarr-

    ideology of islam is much stronger than nationalistic bond it will prevail as promised by Allah & His Messenger SAW

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 6:26 #

  32. Faarigh Jazbati
    member

    Dear Shimatoree

    First of all your reply was not very detailed:) anyway here is my take on the different issues you raised.

    As Ali karamallah wajhu said. Dont look who is saying but concentrate what is being said.

    The unification of Pakistan and Afghanistan is not the idea of Ziaulhaq. Its been there for centuries and was a reality during Mehmood Ghaznawi time and even later times.

    The reason that pakistan army can not control FATA is simple , that it does not want to. They are thinking of a scenario when US will leave afghanistan for good but they still have to deal with the realities on the ground. So why taking the matters to point of no return for the pak army.
    Secondly if pak army does operation then the afghan side is open and when NATO does any operation pak side is open for Taliban. Now think of a scenario that whole of FATA is INSIDE a country called Khorasan, furthermore when US and NATO is gone, why taliban has to fight and who. Pashtoon are great warriors and they would love to join the army of Khorasan and good thing is that the army will no longer be a Punjabi army as the percentage of Punjab will be same or less than Pashtoons.

    As for your point that Punjabi establishment will not accept this...... for this I would say that panjabi establishment will be happy that in a new country Khorasan there dream of equality with India will be fulfilled and they be content with that.

    Aslam786 raised a point that why pashtoon would accept the authority of pakistan army... to that I would say that there will be no longer pakistan army rather it will be Khorasan Army with as many number of punjabis as the pashtoon.

    This new country will also give the opportunity to re-draw the borders of provinces and create new provinces. In this country no ONE province will be big enough to dictate and rule the other provinces.

    And lastly, if you may remember there is a hadith of prophet muhammad saw about the area/country called khorasan and army of muslims coming to fight with the dajjal.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 9:11 #

  33. haider3
    member

    FJ, Your idea of Khorasan made my heart come alive again. I'm all in favour of this vision of yours which is very much more reasonable and powerful than much of what is put forward as solutions for the coming days of freedom for Afghanistan from the latest wave of invaders in that wartorn country. And it would put an end once and for all to that infamous Durand Line that WD so hated. May your optimistic vision triumph over the bitter pessimism of Badal without end envisaged by some (nothing personal intended, dear shimatoree).

    P.S.Specially since the Dajjal seems to be practically on our doorstep.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 9:30 #

  34. gv
    Member

    christ

    you guys are smoking the wrong stuff

    we can barely keep our respective countries together as they are and you think that this magical mysterious strawberry fields forever land of khorasan is the answer..

    and then you wonder why we're falling apart?

    This whole fantasy of the chivalrous islamic knight in shining armour riding his charger to unite the ummah and restore it to its former glory is pointless. instead of looking backward lets look forward - building a new future is much more realistic than trying to rebuild the ruins of a former civilisation...

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 9:38 #

  35. Faarigh Jazbati
    member

    gv

    what wrong proposing a solution which is compeletely different from the present rotten ones. Only a grand vision will alleviate the problems of this region.

    The very reason US and west push forward separatist movement to divide the countries into small countries ia that it is easy to control and manipulate a small country who is reliant on the foreign force for its very survival. A unified pakistan and afghanistan will be near impossible to manipulate by the foreign forces.

    BTW, its you who are smoking something not me as I hate smoking :)

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 9:47 #

  36. haider3
    member

    gv dear, today's daydreamers are tomorrow's visionaries. As for falling apart, it would need more than west troops in Afghanistan and a west-dictated-to govt in Pakistan for both countries to do so. We're poor and we're at war, so what? Look at what's happening to the US and its allies at the moment. And all that nonsense around Iran presently. But I do appreciate your pragmatic approach and your putting forward of concrete solutions to haunting problems. I share much of that with you as well.

    P.S. The EU was fine, was it? The Ummah, perish the thought!

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 9:53 #

  37. gv
    Member

    @MG

    history has proven time and time again that nation states do not bind together because of a shared religion...

    They bind together because of shared languages/cultures/collective histories..

    There was no collective ummah 'state' post the death of Ali. That is an established fact.

    as my friend shimatoree quoted above

    "Those that do not learn from the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat them."

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 10:26 #

  38. Faarigh Jazbati
    member

    Aslam786

    Are you the new ID of WD. You sound so familiar.

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 10:40 #

  39. haider3
    member

    gv, we're all in the same boat then. Stepping into the same river twice. The west because they believe perpetual war for perpetual peace will solve all their own problems, we because we think we may be able to revive the old Ummah concept which you quite rightly point out stopped as such after the death of Hazrat Ali. But both you and shimatoree fail to see that history also has a logic of its own, nothing to do with us paltry human beings. Tomorrow's Ummah will be quite different from anything Muslims have experienced so far, modernity oblige. And it will be a force to be reckoned with as the west sinks daily a little deeper into decadence.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 11:01 #

  40. haider3
    member

    FJ, hush. Aslam786, how about the Pukhtoons taking over Pak-Afghanistan? Would that suit you? They have headed Pakistan in the past and were not among the worst leaders this country ever had. Do remember, hubris will not get anyone anywhere. No one wants Pukhtoons to change in any way. Just to tone down their excessive pride to manageable levels.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Jun 2010 11:05 #

  41. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib ;

    I would like comment on your quote-

    "But both you and shimatoree fail to see that history also has a logic of its own, nothing to do with us paltry human beings. Tomorrow's Ummah will be quite different from anything Muslims have experienced so far, modernity oblige. And it will be a force to be reckoned with as the west sinks daily a little deeper into decadence. "

    It reminds me of two sayings of my mother( 89 years)

    1. When will we have nine maunds of oil and when will Radha dance.

    2. A dead elephant is still worth 100,000 paisas.

    The West is SO FAR ahead that I doubt if it is possible for anyone to catch them.
    If the West stayed still( made no progress) even then it would be very difficult if not impossible for the UMMAH to catch up.
    And I say this with a great deal of sadness and sense of tragedy.
    Let me just give one very simple example which everyone will understand.
    You travel from New York or London to Lahore or Islamabad by air.

    Who has built those airplanes ?
    Who has built their engines ?
    Who has built the turbine blades of the engines ?

    Do all the champions of the Ummah comprehend what it takes to make a jet turbine blade ? I do not think so. So let me explain.

    It takes an honest and caring person who makes a perfect titanium turbine blade. He has to want to make it perfect.

    To teach that desire towards perfection will take an unbroken instruction for generations. It would require education in critical thought with intellectual honesty not due to the fear of punishment but just because that is the right thing to do.

    Now where in the Muslim countries that is being done ? Not anywhere that I know. They have not even started a primary school stage.
    What I see I am afraid there is no hope for the Ummah to catch up with the infidel West.
    We are far behind and cannot catch up.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 0:23 #

  42. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib:

    another of your quotes-
    "May your optimistic vision triumph over the bitter pessimism of Badal without end envisaged by some (nothing personal intended, dear shimatoree). "

    Please be advised that it is not pessimism but just an observation of the ground reality.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 0:25 #

  43. aslam786
    Member

    shimatoree, again well said. On some other topic, others are complain about "old" F-16s provided to Pakistan as payment of services. Even these "old F-16's are light years ahead of what Pakistan or any other muslim country can produce on its own.

    We do not even have technology to produce proper tires for these "old" f-16s. Taliban today are fighting with guns designed by Russians, Chinese and West. What is the desire to be proud of this to only get our people killed for ego and political games of Pakistan?

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 4:08 #

  44. aslam786
    Member

    "Aslam786 raised a point that why pashtoon would accept the authority of pakistan army... to that I would say that there will be no longer pakistan army rather it will be Khorasan Army with as many number of punjabis as the pashtoon."

    Faarigh Jazbati, who will rule this "khorasan" army but graduates of brain dead PMA Kakul? No thanks, but one musharraf and zia was enough damage for pukhtuns to last 100 years.

    You can build your khorasan army and live under its rule, but leave us be.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 4:11 #

  45. toamin
    member

    we don't have to reinvent the wheel to catch 'SO FAR' western nation, in fact they are not so far, i think that they are totally dependent upon other nations for their survival

    for example if pakistan doesn't support america/nato in war against afghanistan then it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to invade & sustain with 'titanium blades' alone

    science, tools or technologies matter a lot but it doesn't mean that i have to invent a wheel first and then build 'titanium blades' we can carry on from existing state of science just like we developed one of the most sophisticated technology in pakistan

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 5:35 #

  46. aslam786
    Member

    Salam, you do know the help of Chinese and extensive smuggling ring was key to nuclear weapons of Pakistan, right?

    Pakistan can stop supporting nato anytime (but money is too good for now), but the carpet bombing that will follow in punjab, sindh will be too much to bear for all you who have no problem with the same for pukhtun lands. You will worry about engine blades then.

    Muslims are right now thinking that hurting Americans in Afghanistan is some big accomplishment, but it is in fact like using scissors to cut through steel.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 11:45 #

  47. haider3
    member

    All very interesting and thanks for a word of common sense from Salam Sahib. But my reply here is to shimatoree with whom, decidedly and much to my regret, I rarely manage to see eye to eye. My version of the Ummah has nothing whatsoever to do with keeping up with the west. I have said it before, I repeat it again. For me personally the west is no model for any thinking person to follow. What I meant was the Ummah will be organised down lines which will probably not be taken from our past Islamic history. To go further, though this is just a suggestion, nothing more: it may come about in the shape of a loose confederation of Muslim countries. And please not to mention the organisations already existing. They are a shame to Islam and I do not mean anything along those lines at all. What I do know - and this is absolutely sure - if the Muslims do not join up, they will be swept under the carpet of history. Now we Muslims are many things, but not as a rule suicidally inclined. That is why this has to come about if we are to face the future with equanimity.

    No more arguments about west decadence. It's on its way out, say I. You question that. Let's leave it at time will tell.

    I did like your mother's form of wisdom, shimatoree. Fits many a case, many a case.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 12:21 #

  48. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib

    I am sorry to have to put forth critical comments about this Ummah of Muslims .
    I fully agree with your idea of a different" evolution" if progress and survival is to be attained as a thriving society. I am again strongly opposed to emulating the social evils of the West.
    But can we really prevent that ?
    Recently there has been a discussion here on the topic of Freedom of Speech with which you are familar.
    How can the Ummah stop those who are infected with this VIRUS of WETOXICATION from spreading it in the Muslim society while preaching Freedom , Freedom, Freedom.

    But I must again raise the ghost of -(the distant past and recent past events of)- history and how we have and we do look at it today.

    Let me again raise the bogey of intellectual honesty and it's role.

    A great deal of soul searching needs to be done and my critical comments-( if they can be called that) are the proverbial High Peaks of Iqbal ( for the Eagle) which are meant to make it fly higher.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 12:55 #

  49. shimatoree
    Member

    Salam

    Your point about not having to RE-INVENT the wheel is well taken But what I am trying to say is a bit different.
    My point is that if the UTOPIA that you are yearning for is to attained-
    intellectual honesty and critical thinking -( and ETHICS)has to be the fundamentals.
    Oh for example-

    1.The shopkeeper on the street in Lahore or Peshawer keeps his shop clean( I hope) but allows rubbish and refuse to be dumped into the open sewer right in front.

    2.The housewife who keeps her house clean but throws garbage outside without any thought as what she is doing.

    3.The tribesman in Waziristan who makes money by selling info to the Nato so that they may DRONE bomb.

    4. Musharraf who sells his country with the help of many many westoxicated people in the country.

    5. The King of Saudi Arabia singing the American songs against Iran.

    Can a loose association of the Muslim countries do anything ?

    Possible perhaps sometimes in the future when someone like Umar Farooq rises -
    but really are the present conditions conducive to that- when Zardari rules in Pakistan, Karzai in Afghanistan and Abdullah in Saudi Arabia and shall I go on.

    The great hope of Pakistan- CJ Iftikhar has also failed to understand the value of TIME and the importance of the MOMENT.
    Where lawyers in Pakistan are being bought openly and the people of this idealistic nation are behaving like sheep being led to the slaughterhouse.

    Where is this magical reformation of the Ummah is going to come from ?

    I am pessimistic because the Muslims have been waiting for this since the death of Umar Farooq and still waiting.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 13:10 #

  50. toamin
    member

    i don't think that muslims have been waiting since the death of Umar Farooq RA

    if we just analyze recent history of sub-continent we can see many movements & attempts made by muslims, well those were failed due to different reasons but struggle and urge can be sensed

    why Muslims believe in excellence or you may call it 'utopea' is directly linked with our belief system, Khilafat is going to be established and Islam to dominate the world is divine promise, we only try to rationalize these promises through existing geopolitics and hope that this is the time :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 13:33 #

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