PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

Allah(SWT) kay Kouf say Ghafil hogaye muslman

(26 posts)

  1. Not Possible
    Blocked

    Allah(SWT) kay Khouf say Ghafil hogaye muslman, Agaya hay Naya Islam, Shirk Hogaya Lena Rasool Allah(SAW) Ka Namn, Sunnah hay ab Taliban ki aam, Kis nay barbad kiya denay aman ka namn, Saudi Salafee bayiman

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 13:26 #

  2. haider3
    member

    Good on you, NP. Rub it in wherever you can. See how they'll all come running to pour hot oil over you. But many stand strong behind you. Don't let anyone or anything put you off your stride.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 13:37 #

  3. Not Possible
    Blocked

    Thanks MG

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 13:48 #

  4. urazzaq12
    Member

    "Allah(SWT) kay Khouf say Ghafil hogaye muslman, Agaya hay Naya Islam, Shirk Hogaya Lena Rasool Allah(SAW) Ka Namn, Sunnah hay ab Taliban ki aam, Kis nay barbad kiya denay aman ka namn, Saudi Salafee bayiman"

    How true, and well said.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 14:20 #

  5. toamin
    member

    actually not so difficult, just go to one of the 'sacred' grave and see for yourself what people are doing :)

    but on the other hand the habit of so called 'salafi' to label everyone else 'shirk' is also bad, even if a muslim has a weak evidence or resemblance of evidence for an action it can not be termed as shirk, at most it can be called 'weak' opinion, but not shirk so i also reject 'salafi' claim of calling everyone else shirk.. righteous ulema like meher ali shah don't shy to condemn fake sufi and ill practices of fake pirs..

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 15:16 #

  6. shimatoree
    Member

    Should we try to look for the causes as to why people go to the graves of saints and do the things that they do?

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 16:18 #

  7. toamin
    member

    they think that people in grave are living and can do 'sefarash' :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 16:49 #

  8. shimatoree
    Member

    Salam

    my question is look at the causes- WHY - not what they think.

    For them justice in this world has failed.

    Ethical behavior has failed to get them what they feel is their fair share.

    Their prayers to God have failed- because God does not listen to poor people( they think). He only listens to rich people- after all that is why they are rich because God gave them all the bounty and riches.

    So they assume( or think) that God is not listening directly and like in life-( Patwari, Depty Comissioner Sahib, Tahnedar Sahib etc) they need to go through proper channels of saints , Pirs etc.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 17:34 #

  9. Not Possible
    Blocked

    @ Salam

    I will take you one step at a time for this.

    1.What is the meaning of Intiqal? i.e Death.

    2.Does the very soul cease to exist? What is real? the body or soul?

    3.Who and what is classifed as a Shaeed and Shahadat?

    Dont start with mocking anyones belief. The sincerity and commitment or mistake is only for Allah to judge.

    As for the acts of illiterate or jahils, their acts are deficent in all spheres of life by your standards, its not just religion, Their acts will be judged by their circumstances.Judged by Allah not us.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 17:51 #

  10. urazzaq12
    Member

    For them justice in this world has failed.

    Ethical behavior has failed to get them what they feel is their fair share.

    Their prayers to God have failed- because God does not listen to poor people( they think)

    So they assume( or think) that God is not listening directly and like in life-

    Mr Shimatoree, first of all you yourself need to stop basing your arguments on mere assumptions, especially when you're talking about the matters of deen...

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 18:15 #

  11. shimatoree
    Member

    Yes- God has FAILED the poor and downtrodden and THE WEAK.

    If I was the dictator of Pakistan-( and I am not)- I would be responsible for my actions- both the stuff I did and did NOT do.

    Let us apply the same logic to the actions of God Almighty.

    Why does he permit the waderas and the powerful to use and abuse the poor . WHY?

    Could God have stopped the murder of the two boys in Sialkote ? Yes because he is Almighty- but he did not. Neither did the crowd around nor the police.

    Now the police is being held accountable but God Almighty ?

    This argument is NOT based on mere assumptions but solid reasons and logic. If you find it hard to swallow- then choke on it !

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 19:18 #

  12. shimatoree
    Member

    I once asked a question from a religious Alim.

    In Rawalpindi a 9 year old boy was sexually assaulted , tortured and murdered by someone.
    After a week or so they found his body in a garbage can and tracked the killer. What is the punishment for the killer I asked. DEATH- replied the Alim.
    Then I asked him what about the torture and suffering that the child underwent ?

    The Alim appeared shocked that I would ask such a thing. He replied that the child's BOOK is closed.

    The real question is - in this day and age where a lot of people wish to have Sharia enforced-( as a solution for everything) difficult questions have to asked and need to ne answered.
    No one can hide behind the assumed sanctity of DEEN and religious doctrine of their sectarian beliefs.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 19:24 #

  13. Not Possible
    Blocked

    @ shimatoree

    God hasnt failed them humanity has, God is not a genie in a bottle at your bidding to do as you please. He has laid out the rules that govern us. Moral corruption is ours and he has asked us to refrain from corrupt, deviant behaviour precisely because that causes the discramination you speak of.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 19:27 #

  14. shimatoree
    Member

    Not Possible-

    What moral corruption was this murdered boy punished for ?
    What crime has Mukhtaran Mai committed to deserve the sexual assault ?

    God must stand up for what he asks us to do .

    If YOU are standing and a person is being killed- if you have the strength then you should stop it.
    Well , He IS all powerful- so why does'nt he stop it ?

    Or is He is a silent observer just taking notes for the Final day of judgement. If that is the case then what about the suffering of the poor and the weak due to exploitation by the wealthy ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 19:41 #

  15. urazzaq12
    Member

    if an object…a machine is not used as per the manual it came with, it is bound to get destructed, and so is the case with humans. The manual of humans is the last book of God, the Holy Quran. And If you think people are following it wholly and then you whine about God being unjust then you 'might' have a little bit of weight in your argument.

    And yes, God could have stopped the murder of those innocent boys in Sialkot, and so could he make everyone believe in him, but God doesn't force people to do good, and we (the humans) have a choice, and that is what differentiate humans from angels, and makes us Ashraf-ul makhluqat, if humans were forced to do good, where would the test (our purpose of life) be, then?

    "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 19:48 #

  16. Not Possible
    Blocked

    shimatoree
    the murdered boy and mukhtaran mai are the victims of moral corruption
    and god is not obligated to us for anything, he is the creator, he gave us life bought us into existance.he gave us guidance, we have the Quran. Acording to his laws those who victimised the boy and mukhtaran mai are evil doers and will be punished.

    This life is temporary, it has little value except what we take from it in terms of amal. Those who suffered will be compensated,those who caused suffering will be punished.

    If there was no God, then crime and suffering will still be happening, (such is human nature to be morally corrupt) but there would be none to administer justice, no finality of justice,

    Justice will come that you can be sure of but it wont be on your terms and not for your accord but how the creator deems it. For he understand the violaters and evil doers better than us.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 19:55 #

  17. raheb
    Member

    Nothing can be better by kouf (FEAR)!!!!!!
    The theory of kouf been failed.

    raheb

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 22:06 #

  18. toamin
    member

    shimatoree,

    your question of why is God Almighty punishing the poor only while rich are enjoying the riches had me wondered some time ago, why earth quack for poor ones, why flood for poor ones etc etc??

    after a little deeper analysis of the world we can see many miseries which rich ones also face, for example that ireland volcano thing that happened recently brought the whole european economy to a halt, did you see how the almighty people of earth were so helpless??

    how about the credit crunch where rich ones lost billions & billions in matter of seconds??

    how can a sane brain comprehend failure in a country like afghanistan??

    last but not least i would humbly request you to study Qur'an and try to answer the questions yourself that Allah swt put forwards to humanity to ponder & think over signs around them- plz

    Mr. Possible Not,

    Sorry, i don't have interest in such useless debates, you can continue to believe in what you want, you can label anyone as shaheed per your desire to grant eternity and seek help from them...

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Aug 2010 22:58 #

  19. Not Possible
    Blocked

    @ Raheb
    Yes true, it is better things are done out of love for Allah(SWT) rather than fear. However when I speak of fear I speak about fear about ones act, we are not ashamed of our moral corruption and the acts that we commit as a result of.

    @Salam
    You are a fine one to tell someone to read the Quran when very apparently you have not done it yourself, whats your fear of not discussing you may find that your concepts are wrong?

    In case you have decided not to pursue I also conclude by saying this, Shirk is commited when WE the humans make parrlels to Allah(SWT) or like firoun try to become one. Shirk is not made when Allah himself designates a Naib, or Wali. Allahs Nizam is such that he has always selected people or methods of intercession. As for Shaheed the definition is universal, anyone who dies whilst striving in the cause of Islam.

    Besides if you didnt want to take up the religous part of the debate atleast you could have taken up the social part.People who do acts that you find odd belong to a social strata where many acts that they do would be odd for you not just religous ones.Its because they are impoverished.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Aug 2010 3:39 #

  20. toamin
    member

    Mr. Possible Not,

    Let me make one thing very clear to you and others, that is I do not accuse anyone of shirk/kufr unless it is 100% definite. I don't say you or umer are committing shirk, i consider you and umer my muslim brothers but with weaker opinion on matters-

    Back in the day when i still had a little youth left in me i used to indulge in such debates with salafi, bralvi, deobandi (plz note i don't belong to any of these), i respect all, consider all muslims and try to bridge them closer together..

    peace

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Aug 2010 7:05 #

  21. raheb
    Member

    Allah ka khauf????? What it is???? Theory of learninh by Khauf (fear) is FAlLURE and in fact not Islamic either but it is of Mullahism which is another religion NOT Islam.

    raheb

    Posted 1 year ago on 05 Sep 2010 20:48 #

  22. Not Possible
    Blocked

    @Salam
    respectfuly it is yours that is weaker, i.e. the opinion but better to respectfuly disagree than argue.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 17:47 #

  23. haider3
    member

    I want to say something on what shimatoree put forward above. It's an ancient debate and still has humanity stumped for an answer. The age-old quarrel between predestination and free will in relation to an all-knowing, all-seeing God.

    I know Muslims are supposed to have free will. Christians, too and Jews perhaps as well. On the other hand, our plain human logic sees some contradiction between the Almighty's attributes and the way our own actions unfold.

    Hazrat Ali, who usually stressed the free will enjoyed by man, once did come out and say something like: "Yes, there is such a thing as predestination (NOT HIS EXACT WORDS), but's it's God's mystery and we should do well not to stray down that path.

    I too often find myself wondering why Allah allows some of the things happening around us on a daily basis. So, to that extent, I definitely share shimatoree's views. Adding to it Hazrat Ali's injunction to leave Allah's mystery well alone.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 20:48 #

  24. dildar
    Member

    Shimatoree

    What moral corruption was this murdered boy punished for ?
    What crime has Mukhtaran Mai committed to deserve the sexual assault ?

    God must stand up for what he asks us to do .

    If YOU are standing and a person is being killed- if you have the strength then you should stop it.
    Well , He IS all powerful- so why does'nt he stop it ?

    Or is He is a silent observer just taking notes for the Final day of judgement. If that is the case then what about the suffering of the poor and the weak due to exploitation by the wealthy ?

    Have ever played chess?

    I sometimes feel that God is playing His chess……:). With whom? ??

    You don’t know how to read urdu, you might be missing a great stuff from Ghalib;

    Jo nahee tere bin koyee mojood
    Toa phir ye hangama ae khuda kia he
    :)
    (If there is no God but Allah then why all this hodgepodge?)

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Sep 2010 4:13 #

  25. haider3
    member

    Dildar, loved the word hodgepodge. Hadn't seen that in a long time. And it beautifully translated the great Ghalib's hangama.

    Now let me add Hazrat Ali's exact words: When asked about destiny, Hazrat Ali once said: "It is a dark path, do not tread upon it, it is a deep ocean, do not dive into it and it is a secret of Allah, do not take trouble over knowing it." (Sayings, 287)

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Sep 2010 8:24 #

  26. dildar
    Member

    Thanks Ghalib!

    I was thinking 'mess' for HANGAMA but then I thought this would not do as what Ghalib meant...:)

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Sep 2010 16:01 #

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