PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

An Islamic Constitution ? Zawahiri

(62 posts)
  1. shimatoree
    Member

    The morning and the Lamp by Ayaman al zawahiri -( Edited)

    The Content of the Risala

    Zawahiri begins his monograph by noting that Pakistani “brothers,” have told him that Pakistan was unique in that it has an Islamic Constitution that actually governs the state and allows citizens to elect representatives freely. According to these , “the problem [in Pakistan] is not with the constitution or the system; instead the problem is with the corrupt ruling class, which assumes power by force or other means and does not abide by the rules of the constitution.”
    Zawahiri claims that these statements stirred up a series of perplexing questions that baffled him. He prefaces his points by asking:

    “How is it possible that the [Pakistani] system is based on Islamic foundations:

    • Yet results in all this corruption, sabotage, and subordination to the West and the Americans?

    • Yet is the system that teaches the confusion which results in the creation of generations with a sentimental attachment to Islam, while in fact, practice, tradition, and general fascination [are sympathetic] to Western culture.

    • Yet the Army - the uncrowned king in Pakistan - is subordinate to the Americans?

    • Yet Pakistan has become the greatest ally of America in its crusader war against Islam?”

    Citing these questions, Zawahiri claims he studied the constitution because he was convinced that those who were praising it actually did not know much about it. He concluded that the answer to his fundamental question is quite simple if painful to some of his audience. “Pakistan is not an Islamic state; it contradicts the Islamic Shari’a in a number of fundamental and significant ways.” All of the arguments that follow are directed to Pakistanis but could just as well be directed to Iraqis, Afghanis or to any Muslim community as a fundamental attack on democracy itself.

    Zawahiri uses many references to the Quran, rational arguments and rhetoric to convey his message. Towards the end of his introduction, he explains that he chose the title The Morning and the Lamp to convey a message to the “sons of English culture” that the “sun of Muhammadan guidance rose 14 centuries ago. Thus your weak lamps are extinguished, [the lamps that] have illumined only your teachers in the West who are living in the darkness of modern barbarism (jahiliyya).” Zawahiri thanks Shaykh Atiyatullah and Shaykh Abu Yahya al-Libi for helping him with a draft of the monologue, but does not refer to Bin Laden.

    Under the subtitle “Who has authority (hukm)?”, Zawahiri defines an argument that depends on Sayyid Qutb’s formulation that sovereignty (hakimiyya) belongs to Allah alone. [2] It is a clever argument, which at one stroke denies the validity of the majority of the legal edifice built up over the centuries within Islamic jurisprudence. It is one thing to say that Allah is the source of all legal and governmental authority and another to say that Allah provides all law, even the most mundane, rather than being the source of infallible divine law and the principles upon which all human law should be based.

    Zawahiri asks, “Who has the right to legislate and who has authority in Pakistan?
    Is it Allah alone or the majority of the representatives in Parliament or [does authority reside in] whatever the Advisory Council declares?”
    Zawahiri goes on to say that he has found the answer settled authoritatively in the fundamental documents of the State of Pakistan.
    “The answer is that the right to amend the constitution or issue laws belongs to the majority of the representatives [of Parliament] alone.”
    He then presents by declaring that a two-thirds majority vote of the Parliament could change the name of Pakistan to the “Pakistani-American Republic” or the “Pakistani Christian Republic.”
    In fact, he argues that a two-thirds majority of Parliament could change the constitution in any way they want and those changes could not be contested in any court.
    Zawahiri’s text provides the constitutional provision in its English version to demonstrate that he is on solid ground in making these assertions. [3]

    In fact, one of the major goals of Zawahiri’s risala is to disabuse Pakistanis of the belief that the real problem is the corruption of the ruling class, asserting it is the nature of the Pakistani system itself.
    He provides a close analysis of eight examples from the constitution that contradict Shari’a:

    1. A two-thirds majority of Parliament can change the constitution without any check by higher authority.

    2. Immunity from prosecution or questioning of the president and other high officials.

    3. The right of the President to pardon crime.

    4. Lack of a clear stipulation that judges should be Muslim and no requirement that judges be just in any court.

    5. Lack of a requirement that the president be male.

    6. Absence of protection from the application of retroactive punishment.

    7. Absence of protection from double jeopardy.

    8. The lack of a prohibition on usury.

    The Impact of the Risala

    Zawahiri’s analysis of the Constitution is likely not intended to influence groups like the Tehrik-e-Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi (TNSM) or the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) since they need no convincing. Voices similar to these have been arguing for the strict application of Shari’a for as long as the Pakistani constitution has existed.
    The real target is much more likely the the youth. It is probable that Zawahiri assumes these groups know as little about the Pakistani constitution as the more extreme “brothers” who motivated him to write his monograph in the first place.

    A recent poll of Pakistani youth revealed that 64% want an Islamic state in Pakistan even though religious parties have received an insignificant share of the vote (Dawn, February 22).
    Similarly, a recent Gallup Poll showed that fully 60% of the Pakistani public thinks that Shari’a should be the only source of legislation and one-third thinks that religious leaders should play a direct role in government. [4]
    Both polls show that despite these answers, support for freedom of speech and other democratic values co-exist with what many see as Islamic values.
    Perhaps this is the confusion that Zawahiri is referring to when he complains that Pakistanis are attached both to Islam and Western culture, which he asserts are incompatible.
    The public had initially been against violent attacks associated with the red mosque, but then reversed itself after what it perceived to be indiscriminate violence by the army (see Terrorism Monitor, July 19, 2007).

    In any case, the challenge to Pakistani security authorities will be to act with carefully calibrated operations that do not repeat the Red Mosque experience.
    This is a very difficult challenge that will play itself out over the next year of increased American operations in Afghanistan and a potential increase in spillover violence in Pakistan.
    Dr. Michael W.S. Ryan is an independent consultant and researcher on Middle Eastern security issues and a Senior Research Associate at the Jamestown Foundation.

    http://www.jamestown.org/programs/gta/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=36176&cHash=ff976df363

    Notes:

    1. This written piece is referred to as a monograph in Western sources but is referred to as risala in Arabic, which could mean anything from a “letter” or “essay” or even the generic “communication.”
    2. Sayyid Qutb was one of the foremost theorists for the Muslim Brotherhood and was executed by the Egyptian Government in 1966 (see Terrorism Monitor, May 4, 2005).
    3. See http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/.  The amendments cited by Zawahiri are Amendments 238, 239 of Part IX. Zawahiri is fluent in English but does not claim to know Urdu.
    4. Dalia Mogahed, “Islam and Democracy,” Gallup Muslim West Facts Project, n.d.,
    http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/105643/Islam-Democracy.aspx.

    Posted 1 year ago on 06 Sep 2010 23:47 #
  2. He provides a close analysis of eight examples from the constitution that contradict Shari’a:

    1. A two-thirds majority of Parliament can change the constitution without any check by higher authority.

    2. Immunity from prosecution or questioning of the president and other high officials.

    3. The right of the President to pardon crime.

    4. Lack of a clear stipulation that judges should be Muslim and no requirement that judges be just in any court.

    5. Lack of a requirement that the president be male.

    6. Absence of protection from the application of retroactive punishment.

    7. Absence of protection from double jeopardy.

    8. The lack of a prohibition on usury.

    A pretty fine list of faults (Shari’a or no Shari’a), won't you agree? :)

    "A recent poll of Pakistani youth revealed that 64% want an Islamic state in Pakistan even though religious parties have received an insignificant share of the vote (Dawn, February 22)."
    Let's add to that the latest Pew survey I was talking about earlier...

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 0:01 #
  3. Anwer Kamal
    Member

    Islam is actually no issue in Pakistan.
    No problem for any Muslim.
    This is only used to grab power only.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 0:14 #
  4. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Anwer Kamal: Your words don't make sense. o_O

    I believe you are 'seriously' mistaken on this point.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 0:21 #
  5. Brought over from: http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/islamic-constitution-zawahiri
    hariskhan
    member
    Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
    People of Pakistan, educated or otherwise, most of them, have not reached the;
    (1) 'thought process', its 'maturity'
    (2) financial independence
    to 'look past' their;
    (1) ego
    (2) 'acute' 'attitude' 'problem'
    (3) 'self' 'interest'
    (4) 'misplaced' 'criticism' / 'sarcasm'
    (5) 'unjust' 'nature'
    plus they are ready to sacrifice everything! just so they can attain luxuries of life, disregarding the 'way' they attain those luxuries. They are ever-ready to live 'beyond' their 'means'.
    Hence, it is 'likely', it will take them 'much much longer' to reach a point, where they will be mature enough to 'take charge' of their 'predicament'.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    As always, I'll repeat: the only problem in Pakistan is 'neeyat' (in urdu) of the people. ALL the rest is already in place.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 1:04 #
  6. Not Possible
    Blocked

    Aiman Al Zawheri, head of AlQaeda which has done most damage to muslim ummah, making comments on Pakistani constitution?...Allah help us all.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 12:47 #
  7. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Not Possible: Ok, so the discussion ends there ? with this! note ?

    No!, it doesn't.

    Tell me about 'credibility' ? What is it ? How is it established ? When is it possible to establish 'credibility' ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 12:53 #
  8. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Why is no one talking on this issue ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 13:26 #
  9. shimatoree
    Member

    Haris Khan Sahib-

    Because everyone is scared to death of having an Islamic Justice system.
    An Islamic system will deal with all the crimes and criminals in a swift and forthright manner wihtout the need for lawyers. The crooks who are in power do not like that.

    Mark my words- They will fight any attempt to enforce the Islamic Sharia no matter what.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 14:25 #
  10. achtung
    Member

    shimatoree bhai

    zawahiri is not pakistani national. you think he has any right to criticise our constitution? you think he has any right to tell us what is wrong and what is right in constitution? you think he has any right to propose changes in our constitution? you think he has any any thing to do in our constitution? you think one disputed person should talk about our constitution?

    if zawahiri want to change constitution he should change constitution of his own country.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 14:36 #
  11. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shimatoree: Is that meant to scare me .. or us ?

    They would have been of no concern to anyone in our society, our community, our country, our nation states, our UMMAH, if common man of this nation was not supporting them.

    We are not afraid of them or those who they pledge their allegiance to, or anyone else.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 14:36 #
  12. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    Do you and others who want to see Islamic Justice System support stoning to death and chopping of hands? If so, why were we upset on beating to death in Sailkot? In Islamic Justice System things of that sort will be a norm.

    As far as Mr. Zahwari is concerned why doesn't he analyze constitution of his country Egypt? Both he and O$ama are not forced out of their home countries. Our foolish pushtoons (both Afghan and Tribal) accepted them as guests and as traditional Sheikh's camel they want to throw owner out. Even educated people like you are yet again fooled by Arab militants in the name of religion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 14:45 #
  13. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shirazi: How are you equating what happened in Sialkot with Islam's justice system ?

    How do you substantiate this claim ?

    I claim there is a huge difference between the two.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 14:47 #
  14. Shimatoree

    Because everyone is scared to death of having an Islamic Justice system.
    An Islamic system will deal with all the crimes and criminals in a swift and forthright manner wihtout the need for lawyers. The crooks who are in power do not like that.

    Do you seriously believe that an 'islamic system' suggested by Zawahiri will be an islamic system.
    How come this system will provide justice if it requires that the president be a MALE only?

    and why dont Zawahiri suggest something for his country or atleast for his race Arabs who are the scum of this earth (really).
    I'm disappointed...

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 15:36 #
  15. shimatoree
    Member

    Achtung-

    The oldest TRICK in the world is-

    To question the legitimacy and credibility of the messenger when you cannot rationally deal with the message.

    Whether Mr. Zawahiri has any rights or not is not the issue here- the ISSUE is if the constitution of Pakistan meets the requirements of Islamic Sharia.

    After reading the article( put forth by Jamestown Foundation- a Think Tank in Washington.D.C. USA) I am affraid the answer is obvious to any reasobale and rational observer.
    Of course those that do not wish for a system strictly based on Islamic Sharia will try all kinds of convolutions and contortions to try to de-legitimize what is being said by questioning the credibility of the messenger.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 15:45 #
  16. shimatoree
    Member

    Dildar-

    The article has been translated by Jamestown Foundation- An American Think Tank based in Washington D.C. and is put up here for a thoughtful and intellectual discussion.
    I would have expected a more scholarly critique from YOU rather than a visceral and emotional outburst.
    I will repeat again-

    "Whether Mr. Zawahiri has any rights or not is not the issue here- the ISSUE is if the constitution of Pakistan meets the requirements of Islamic Sharia. "

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 15:51 #
  17. shirazi
    Member

    @hariskhan

    Stoning, or lapidation, refers to a form of capital punishment whereby a group of persons throws stones at an individual until the person dies. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning)

    How different is that from what we saw in Sailkot? It's as brutal, if not more, as mob killing two individuals through sticks and kicks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 15:55 #
  18. @shirazi
    "How different is that from what we saw in Sailkot?"

    I think we talked about it in the Sialkot thread. Again I will say it is VERY different. Second, what does that have to do if this topic?

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 16:11 #
  19. shirazi
    Member

    I am in favor of secular democratic Pakistan. I strongly deplore an attempt by Arab militant to turn Pakistan into theocratic state. Few of his claims, as stated above, are factually incorrect and others are ridiculous though I agree with some of his reservations.

    1. A two-thirds majority of Parliament can change the constitution without any check by higher authority.

    That's incorrect. Laws enacted by legislative body can be over turned by superior judiciary if deemed in confrontation with constitution in almost all secular democracies.

    2. Immunity from prosecution or questioning of the president and other high officials.

    I agree with immunity from prosecution but not with the questioning of the President. President can be impeached. GIK and Musharaaf left their office after impeachment was publically announced.

    3. The right of the President to pardon crime.

    It is part of many secular constitutions and was added with good intention. If it is deemed un-Islamic and is exercised with ill-intention, as we have seen recently, it can be easily amended.

    4. Lack of a clear stipulation that judges should be Muslim and no requirement that judges be just in any court.

    Our history is full of non-muslim honest jurists including Justice Baghwan Daas who played pivotal role in judicial independence movement. We do not need jihadi recommendation on who can sit there and who can't?

    5. Lack of a requirement that the president be male.

    That's true. How about banning women drivers too?

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 16:21 #
  20. shirazi
    Member

    @nota

    I remember this discussion but I believe it was inconclusive. I agree with your argument that instead of mob passing the judgement qualified judges would do that. But I think we agreed else where that even if they were guilty (they were not as per report submitted to supreme court) that barbaric punishment had no justification or place in civilized society. As far as execution part is concerned, not the judgement, stoning to death is not much different than what we saw in Sailkot.

    "what does that have to do if this topic?"

    The proponents of Shria Law should also defend barbaric punishments or as you say punishments to set an example for others.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 17:18 #
  21. achtung
    Member

    shimatoree bhai

    "To question the legitimacy and credibility of the messenger when you cannot rationally deal with the message"

    sorry i can not agree. To question the legitimacy and credibility of the messenger not apply here because Zawahiri is foreign national. he has no right to speak in our internal matters. yes our ulema can speak about it but not Zawahiri. he is nobody.

    "Of course those that do not wish for a system strictly based on Islamic Sharia will try all kinds of convolutions and contortions"

    shimatoree bhai, what is a system strictly based on Islamic Sharia? i challange you to bring that up in a separate thread in black and white. yeh keh kar na tarkha daina keh quran-o-hadees-o-sunnat hamara system hy. write a brief of constitution. write how govt will function. write how leaders will be selected. write how govt will change. write how judiciary will function. write what role media have. etc etc

    write somthing which give answer to every thing. i am sure if you have clear vision of system based on islamic sharia, you can write it.

    i hope you accept the challange.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 20:59 #
  22. shirazi
    Member

    I heard this interesting program today. That gives you some insight to Alqaeda, Osama & and especially Amen Al Zawarhi ...

    http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=129697986&m=129699481

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 21:41 #
  23. shimatoree
    Member

    Achtung-

    " Whether Mr. Zawahiri has any rights or not is not the issue here- the ISSUE is if the constitution of Pakistan meets the requirements of Islamic Sharia. "

    You can write what you wish.

    And I will also write what I WISH to. End of story.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 21:43 #
  24. achtung
    Member

    ok shimatoree bhai

    plz dont mind. can you plz rely to my quetion in this regard? i not mind if you do not. no offence intended.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 21:47 #
  25. shimatoree
    Member

    Achtung-

    What plan I write about the enforcement of Sharia in Pakistan will be subject to the same objections as the comments of Zawahiri.

    The message would be a bitter and severe denunciation of the legal system imposed on the Muslim people of Pakistan by a westoxicated clones of the West and based on lies and deception - based further on what the British colonialists put in place to guard their own interests.
    The legal basis of the Pakistan Constitution is not on Islamic Sharia but on the British penal code of British India.( same in India too).

    The thread "LIARS" describes well what the constitution of Pakistan is based on.
    Of course cosmetic LIP service is paid to Islam by co-opting and buying the always for SALE Mullahs-( or for hire).

    If I am in a position of power- sure I will write what needs to be done but in a simple word is Islamic Sharia which is already written.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 21:58 #
  26. shirazi
    Member

    @achtung

    Good luck getting straight answers from Sharia/revolution lovers. They don't know what they are asking for? They don't have any unique ideas on selection of leaders or transition or judiciary. They don't have any examples to quote.

    Posted 1 year ago on 07 Sep 2010 22:13 #
  27. Shimatoree

    What plan I write about the enforcement of Sharia in Pakistan will be subject to the same objections as the comments of Zawahiri.

    The message would be a bitter and severe denunciation of the legal system imposed on the Muslim people of Pakistan by a westoxicated clones of the West and based on lies and deception - based further on what the British colonialists put in place to guard their own interests.

    Sharia term is as controversial as Zawahiri himself. Implication of his ideology which is heavily based upon the ideology of Hasanal bana and Syed Qutab is like 'Out of the frying pan, into the fire'.

    I would honestly appreciate if you or anyone else could educate us about Sharia itself.

    What exactly is Sharia?

    Does Sharia consider a women a ‘human being’ or not?
    (I WOULD APPRECIATE AN HONEST ANSWER)

    Does Sharia mean that more than 50% of population will get life-imprisonment and not even killing someone?

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 3:55 #
  28. shirazi
    Member

    @dildar

    "It was thought that Mullah Omar had taken Bin Laden's eldest daughter as a wife, and that Bin Laden may even have taken one of Mullah Omar's daughters as a fourth wife." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550419.stm)

    Amen Al Zawrahi may have proposed this unique bond. This is their shriyat and respect for women rights. The way they are blowing human shows us how much they respect and value human life.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 4:07 #
  29. shimatoree
    Member

    dildar-

    your questions will be answered directly-( and not in a dishonest way)

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 4:52 #
  30. achtung
    Member

    shimatoree bhai

    "What plan I write about the enforcement of Sharia in Pakistan will be subject to the same objections as the comments of Zawahiri"

    i agree. similarly any plan written by ulema of different many sects of islam about the enforcement of Sharia in Pakistan will be subject to the same objections as the comments of Zawahiri.

    so how muslims can enforce sharia in pakistan when they can not first agree on plan.

    that is why in 1400 years sharia based govt was not possible in muslim worlds. this make me feel the widely talked constitution that meet islamic sharia is only emotional 'naara'and lip service. will you plz comment.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 21:18 #
  31. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    achtung bhai, Shariah was applied more or less for 1400 years of Islamic history from Bani Umayyah to Bani Abbas to Mughals and to Ottoman Caliphate until 1923. Even Aurangzeb applied Shariah. Although not 100% perfect due to lack of proper authorities it was however million times better than the secular systems that have caused havoc and untold miseries in last 100 years due to onslaught of colonial powers. Shariah is and will be perfect until end of the world. The problem is with those that apply it. Case in point is the corrupt Saudis that misuse Shariah to keep the population under control through strict punishments. They use some shariah laws that suits them and ignore shariah laws that challenge them.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 22:04 #
  32. naseemkhanan
    Member

    AR Bhai
    What you say is very well understood by believers only and never will be by those who belong to the types of Summun Bukmun Umyun fahum la yurjaoun.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 22:14 #
  33. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shimatoree: Why is 'everyone' scared of Islami justice system ?

    Islam's justice system is 'dynamic'. It rules, laws, principles, standards adapt according to the situation a human being is faced with.

    Are you claiming, 'everyone' in this country, is a criminal ?

    That doesn't make sense.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 22:41 #
  34. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shirazi: (1) There's much difference between;

    (a) state machinery/representatives who have authority from the state, the law of the land, carrying out sentence/punishment of a criminal

    and!

    (b) random group of people murdering someone, without confirming if that person had committed any crime in the first place, as was the case in Sialkot

    How .. in the name of ALLAH ALMIGHTY are you equating the two ? o_O

    --------------------------------------------------------

    (2) What is wrong with Islam's Justice System ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 22:44 #
  35. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @dildar: What the heck does;

    (1) a 'male' president

    have to do with

    (2) it being impossible to disseminate justice

    ?!

    Does that even make sense ? If yes, how so ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 22:48 #
  36. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shirazi: (3) Your post above is in violation of teachings, ways, guidelines, rules, principles, standards, laws of Islam.

    I want you to clarify your position in this regard;

    Are you trying to say, you want to sideline/abandon teachings, ways, guidelines, rules, principles, standards, laws of Islam and want laws that agree to 'your' desires, whims ?

    Be advised;

    (1) that a 'Muslim' is a person who 'agrees', who 'accepts' to live his or her life as per teachings, ways, guidelines, rules, principles, standards, laws of Islam. When he/she finds a word from Islam on any matter, he/she considers the matter 'closed'.

    (2) those who choose to go outside boundaries/borders set by Islam, they endanger themselves of;

    (a) moving away or even out from Islam
    (b) loosing their credibility, their rights and privileges in a Muslim nation

    --------------------------------------------------------

    Point #1: Parliament [Shura] can make laws

    Hazrat Umar (RA, RAA), as 'Khaleefa' of Muslims, also issued decrees'. Perhaps I can note them as 'making laws'. However, Hazrat Umar (RA, RAA) never created laws that were against guidelines, teachings, ways, principles, rules, laws, standards of Islam. If he (RA, RAA) even found such a law, he discarded it, ASAP).

    To date, people who reach parliament of Pakistan, through whatever means they do, they excersize power to make laws that go against Islam. This should not be possible in a Muslim state. Yet, in Pakistan, not only is it possible, not only has it been happening/excersized to-date, going forward, it continues to be excersized in this same way.

    Laws that are made, should either comply with guidelines, teachings, ways, principles, rules, laws, standards of Islam or this state cannot note itself as a 'Muslim state' or a state for Muslims.

    Constitution of Pakistan cannot be noted as a 'Muslim/Islami constitution', since it is in violation of guidelines, teachings, ways, principles, rules, laws, standards of Islam.

    Why do Parliamentarians, in Pakistan, have the capability to make laws that go against guidelines, teachings, ways, principles, rules, laws, standards of Islam ?

    Who gives them this authority, the power to do this ?

    --------------------------------------------------------

    On your point about 'superior judiciary' 'overturning' laws made by parliament of Pakistan, I want to raise the questions;

    (1) how much do people in judiciary 'know' about Islam ?

    (2) Is Pakistan's judiciary as per guidelines, teachings, ways, principles, rules, laws, standards of Islam ?

    (3) Do people in 'judiciary' of Pakistan 'understand', as well as 'accept' that laws which are in violation of 'Islam' 'cannot be made' 'in Pakistan' ?

    (4) Why do Muslims need non-Muslims as judges ?

    (5) Why do you want non-Muslims to be 'judges' for Muslims ? Why are you not happy with non-Muslims to be 'judges' for their own 'community'/'group'/'people', as is the case in a Muslim state, since a Muslim state is 'plural' in nature ?

    (6) Do you 'understand' what I mean, when I say, a Muslim state is 'plural' in nature ?

    (7) etc etc, I have a lot many questions

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:03 #
  37. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shirazi: Point #2: Immunity of 'President'

    There is no such thing as 'immunity' for 'any human being' in Islam, no matter;

    (1) how much money they have
    (2) power they have
    (3) status they have
    (4) intellect they have
    (5) intelligence, knowledge they have
    (6) colour
    (7) caste
    (8) creed
    (9) etc etc, (or whatever else that they can possibly have)

    There is no 'immunity' of any kind, for even the 'Khaleefah' of Muslims from law of the land (i.e., Islam), in a Muslim state.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:28 #
  38. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shirazi: One of the differences between a Muslim state, and a non-Muslim state, is that a Muslim state recognizes 'SOVEREIGNTY' of ALLAH ALMIGHTY.

    'SOVEREIGNTY' is only! .. and I repeat, only! for ALLAH ALMIGHTY. ALLAH ALMIGHTY is the only! 'SOVEREIGN'. ALL laws stem from ALLAH ALMIGHTY's whims, ALLAH ALMIGHTY's given teachings, ways, guidelines, standards, principles, rules, laws i.e., Islam.

    In contrast, a non-Muslim state notes ordinary human beings as 'sovereign'. Those who rule non-Muslim states, they are 'ordinary human beings', like you or me or any other human being. They are not 'special' people.

    By noting these 'ordinary human beings' as 'sovereign', people in non-Muslim states 'willingly' 'agree' to 'accept' to be 'slaves' at the hands of these people i.e., people 'willingly' 'accept' 'slavery' at the hands of these people.

    Do you 'understand' what this! means ?

    Do you understand the difference between;

    (1) being a 'slave' of a human being

    and

    (2) being a 'slave' of ALLAH ALMIGHTY

    ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:31 #
  39. shirazi
    Member

    @HK

    I do. Please see salient features of objective resolution before issuing a new fitwa.

    On March 12, 1949, the Constituent Assembly adopted a resolution moved by Liaquat Ali Khan, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan. It was called the Objectives Resolution. It proclaimed that the future constitution of Pakistan would not be modeled on European pattern, but on the ideology and democratic faith of Islam.

    The Objectives Resolution, which is considered to be the "Magna Carta" of Pakistan's constitutional history, proclaimed the following principles:

    1. Sovereignty belongs to Allah alone but He has delegated it to the State of Pakistan through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him as a sacred trust.

    2. The State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people.

    3. The principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed.

    4. Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah.

    5. Adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures.

    6. Pakistan shall be a federation.

    7. Fundamental rights shall be guaranteed.

    8. Judiciary shall be independent.

    The Objectives Resolution is one of the most important and illuminating documents in the constitutional history of Pakistan. At the time it was passed, Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan called it "the most important occasion in the life of this country, next in importance only to the achievement of independence".

    The importance of this document lies in the fact that it combines the good features of Western and Islamic democracy. It is a happy blend of modernism and Islam. The Objectives Resolution became a part of the constitution of Pakistan in 1985 under the Eighth Amendment.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:39 #
  40. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Yes, 'Muslims' are 'viceroys' of ALLAH ALMIGHTY, in this world, towards the rest of the world, towards every entity in this entire! universe.

    The fact is, that objective resolution does not have 'importance', 'significance' when compared to any other law that is present in present constitution of Pakistan.

    If I rule over Pakistan, the first thing I would do as soon as I get to rule Pakistan/Muslim state, is;

    (1) I will create a law, that will say;

    (a) Islam is the law of the land
    (b) this law is above all other laws in constitution of Pakistan
    (c) that all other laws, even if they are present in constitution of Pakistan, they are invalid, they do not apply, if they are found in violation of teachings, guidelines, ways, standards, principles, rules, laws of Islam
    (d) all laws that violate teachings, guidelines, ways, standards, principles, rules, laws of Islam are to be 'discarded' from constitution of Pakistan, ASAP!

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:41 #
  41. shimatoree
    Member

    Achtung-

    In my view-

    The reason( reasons) why Islamic Sharia was not "fully" enforced is simple- the rulers did not wish to be subject to a universal and uniform law which applied to them as well as the common man and the slaves.( sort of like today in Pakistan!)

    As to the different SECTS not agreeing on the interpretation of Sharia- I would just say that the differences are small and if there is a will they can be sorted out. But if not then the rule of Majority Sect will apply with special dispensation for the minority sects.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:44 #
  42. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shirazi: What does it mean -> I do ?

    I didn't issue any fatwa. I'm having an intellectual discussion on this thread.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:47 #
  43. shimatoree
    Member

    Haris Khan Sahib-

    Everyone is scared of Islamic Sharia -simply because they do not wish to have a legal system which is egalitarian- meaning it applies equally to the rich as well as the poor.

    The present legal system allows intrusion and modification through Lawyers and advocates. The people who are very fond of the English Legal system in place in Pakistan today want to maintain their advantage to be able to mould everything to suite them- since with money they can " BUY" the best lawyers who lie and make the guilty innocent.
    The Islamic system will not permit that.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:49 #
  44. achtung
    Member

    thnx shimatoree bhai for your enlightening response.

    naseem bhai

    "AR Bhai
    What you say is very well understood by believers only and never will be by those who belong to the types of Summun Bukmun Umyun fahum la yurjaoun"

    you are very right. i can see that so agree.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Sep 2010 23:51 #
  45. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree bahi belongs to generation of faujis who promoted jihad through American $$$. He is not alone every retired fauji who comes on TV speaks the same language same tone. Their intellect starts with promoting jihadis and ends at attacking west. You won't see same trait in serving army personnels. My fairly religious brother-in-law who is serving in army now doesn't say a word against US despite all their atrocities. He proudly showed me all the renovations in their mess and compound in Terbala and attributed that to in his words 'friends' aka US. I am sure when he will retire he will speak like shimatoree; anti-west, pro-Islamists. I am sure if @shimatoree was serving today he 'd be shooting down all those jihadis that he defends day and night here on pkp.

    All these faujis wake up at retirement, if they can start their awakening process 10 - 12 years earlier things 'd be much different. The highest education of most of these retired defense and security pundits is barely HSSC but they propose solutions as if they are subject matter experts on everything.

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Sep 2010 4:39 #
  46. islamone
    Member

    Most democratic way is
    Hukum Allah Ka
    Hukumat Awam ki
    Zameen Kashtkaru ki
    Karkhana Kareegaron ki
    this will bring and a revolution

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Sep 2010 5:52 #
  47. May God bless on Pakistan when we have criminal fugitives like Zawahiri are telling us what to do with our constitution.

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 Sep 2010 5:45 #
  48. @shirazi
    "All these faujis wake up at retirement"

    So you are saying @shimatoree is in an awoken state now and yet you are dishing for that very thing? Interesting. BTW: What do you really think of your "My fairly religious brother-in-law who is serving in army now doesn't say a word against US despite all their atrocities"? Do you feel he is scvm? Do you eat at his house, love him, support him? Could you possibly be shunning him (which is what you should be doing but I am sure you don't, his support for atrocities be damned). Now be honest :)

    "The highest education of most of these retired defense and security pundits is barely HSSC but they propose solutions as if they are subject matter experts on everything"
    That might be true but your insinuation that "shimatoree too is barely HSSC" is being intentionally dishonest as you know you yourself can't possibly match him in education. Let's have it: Tell me what "degrees/diplomas" you have (leaving experience aside for now for you'll be licked there for sure) and we'll compare that to shimatoree's, if that is your standard of measure. Now don't weasel out! :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 Sep 2010 6:15 #
  49. naseemkhanan
    Member

    Shirazi's, hate for a 'fouji' is because for once they wiped off MQM's a.r.s.e in Karachi and will do it again on orders.

    Ibney Nasooh kiyoun bantey ho. Apney giraban main bhi jhank liya karo. Sub fouji wo nahin hotey jo tum samjhtey ho.

    Shimatoree ko hi daikh lo.

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 Sep 2010 7:40 #
  50. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @shimatoree: Are these the 'majority' in this nation ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 Sep 2010 12:51 #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.