Another Proud moment for Pakistan

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Another Proud moment for Pakistan

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hkbajwa
Member

http://tribune.com.pk/story/269390/ahmadis-expelled-from-school/

quite interested in knowing how our dear mullahists will justify this

Posted 7 months ago on 10 Oct 2011 11:22 #
NNL
member

thats kinda simple as if they had stopped lying they would be fine.

Like you cant pronounce yourself to be something when you clearly arent even remotely similar to the core belief of that particular thing.

Posted 7 months ago on 10 Oct 2011 17:08 #
LifeH2O
Member

If they were doing a mullahism in school (do think like us) then correct action was taken. No way otherwise.

Posted 7 months ago on 10 Oct 2011 21:48 #
hkbajwa
Member

Well gentlemen, as is your wont, you are defending an action, not by evaluating the action itself, but rather the culpability of the victims.

These kids were students. They had no business being dragged into the religious war of persecution conducted by our esteemed mullahists. Even the principal disagreed with their expulsion.

There is no ahmadi in Pakistan that is unaware of the consequences of preaching ahmadiyyat. That is why ahmadis stay silent and endure the hatred, discrimination and derision heaped upon them by the state machinery and the mullah-incited public.

As is clear from this article, the expulsion of the students had nothing to do with whether or not they promoted ahmadiyyat. The kids were expelled because they were ahmadis - plain and simple. The "crime" for which they were punished was not their actions, but rather their affiliation.

But neither of you have taken the trouble to actually evaluate the situation. You have exhibited the knee-jerk reaction of any mullah minion by instantly assuming that they deserved the expulsion and supporting the violation of their basic rights that this expulsion constitutes.

How you two then have the gall to whine about unfair treatment of muslims in the west, really is beyond my comprehension. At least have the intellectual honesty and decency to take what you dish out to your own countrymen without b****ing about it.

"Muslims" like yourselves deserve nothing less than the discrimination you face in the rest of the world. For the oppression your fellow citizens must suffer, the violent creed you espouse, the hatred you promote, the humanity you deny and the supreme misplaced arrogance you exhibit, the label of "terrorist" is appropriate to you.

While i think it's an awful state to be in, i can only thank the creator for the balance he has created. As you do unto others, others do unto you.

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 7:33 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ LIfe

It occurred to me that i may have misunderstood what you were trying to say in your post. I apologize if i have. Would you be kind enough to clarify?

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 7:35 #
shafiq12
member

ah well, look who's here

Well gentlemen, as is your wont, you are defending an action, not by evaluating the action itself, but rather the culpability of the victims.

Bajwa, good lord, it's natural for a man to defend his creed --- to stand by his class --- to safe guard what he believes

These kids were students. They had no business being dragged into the religious war of persecution conducted by our esteemed mullahists. Even the principal disagreed with their expulsion.......

bajwa, don't look like that way, you know these kids are future generation of ahmedies, and you know what ahmedies believes, they are trained to believe what muslim disbelief --- See, bajwa i give you simple example, You can't associate case of Ahemdies with rest of Religions:-
let see how, A christian doesn't believe him musilm while ahmedies say they are muslim --- and on the other hand their beliefs are simply an attack on the faith of muslims -----

Do you agree with me that Ahmedies are non muslim?

If you agree then we may proceed further and if you don't agree then give me reason what is this in your atricle

“I’ve never seen Christians and students belonging to other religions ever having to deal with such restrictions,” the distraught father says.
“I personally opposed the expulsion on the basis of faith,” Muslim Public School Principal Yasir Abbas responds when contacted by The Express Tribune.

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 8:28 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Oblivion

Firstly, it's ridiculous to expect anybody to classify their religion as per the instructions of others. If you believe there is justice in the forcible imposition of a label under pain of death, then you have much to learn about the concept of justice. It is not my place to define who is muslim and who is not. That right is reserved for Allah EXCLUSIVELY. Anybody who oversteps their authority and attempts to judge on behalf of the Creator is an idiot who'll have to answer to God eventually. No point getting into an argument with me about whether ahmadis are muslim or not. They have the right to call themselves what they wish and Allah will reckon with them if they are wrong.

Secondly, this thread is not about whether ahmadis are muslim or not. This is about whether it is justified to expel kids from school based ONLY on their religious affiliation.

You try to justify it by saying that it is natural to protect your own creed. Sure it is. It is human to protect your own right or wrong. It is however Islamic to protect TRUTH and JUSTICE irrespective of affiliation. The TRUTH here is that these children are children trying to get an education. They have done NOTHING to deserve expulsion except being born into a family that is persecuted. JUSTICE would be to leave them out of the equation and give them the same opportunity to be educated as any other minor in Pakistan.

So far other than the "inherent evil" of all ahmadis, there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for this violation of these children's rights. Neither you nor anybody else can possibly justify this act by any means other than painting ahmadis to be evil enough to "deserve" persecution.

You and your ilk may try to whitewash your conscience by pointing to the oft-mentioned "worldwide ahmadi conspiracy", the "zionist/british conspiracy" and any other unproven and patently ridiculous theory, but that does not change the fact that there quite simply is NO JUSTIFICATION for persecution of CHILDREN for the "sins" of their parents.

I find it both laughable and incredibly tragic that in spite of the glaring injustice of this action, you still wish to defend it.

Anyhow it doesn't really matter. Even the grandest of lies cannot defeat the smallest of truths. No matter the justification, the inherent injustice and complete contradiction of Islamic principle is there for all to see. Cloak it in whatever weak justification you wish.

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 9:03 #
shafiq12
member

Firstly, it's ridiculous to expect anybody to classify their religion as per the instructions of others. If you believe there is justice in the forcible imposition of a label under pain of death, then you have much to learn about the concept of justice. It is not my place to define who is muslim and who is not. That right is reserved for Allah EXCLUSIVELY. Anybody who oversteps their authority and attempts to judge on behalf of the Creator is an idiot who'll have to answer to God eventually. No point getting into an argument with me about whether ahmadis are muslim or not. They have the right to call themselves what they wish and Allah will reckon with them if they are wrong.

There is difference between Islam and Eman --- I think you are mixing both the concept -- momin is higher level than muslim --- a muslim can/can't be momin while a momin must become muslim first --- To become muslim, you know it's very easy by saying few words like "there is no God but Allah and muhammad is messenger of Allah"" You will become muslim --- Eman is that right which is reserved for Allah EXCLUSIVELY ---- I have no right to point on your eman --- You will be momin when you are muslims --- Muhammad is final and last prophet of God, there is no doubt in it, any one who doubt about it is expelled from Islam --- Ahmedies don't believe in it --- See it's faith vs faith ---- The matter doesn't solve here, after that they claim that they are real muslims -- bajwa, it looks like some kind of freshhell --- they call themselves real muslim and they donnot agree that they should be called as non - muslim

Secondly, this thread is not about whether ahmadis are muslim or not. This is about whether it is justified to expel kids from school based ONLY on their religious affiliation.

The treatment with kids, has perspective of religion --- as the author of wrote

“I’ve never seen Christians and students belonging to other religions ever having to deal with such restrictions,” the distraught father says.
“I personally opposed the expulsion on the basis of faith,” Muslim Public School Principal Yasir Abbas responds when contacted by The Express Tribune.

The were expelled from classes because they were ahmedis, they weren't expelled from classes because they were human -- Bajwa, did you read that link full? --- It's all about religion vs religion -- faith vs faith

You try to justify it by saying that it is natural to protect your own creed. Sure it is. It is human to protect your own right or wrong. It is however Islamic to protect TRUTH and JUSTICE irrespective of affiliation. The TRUTH here is that these children are children trying to get an education. They have done NOTHING to deserve expulsion except being born into a family that is persecuted. JUSTICE would be to leave them out of the equation and give them the same opportunity to be educated as any other minor in Pakistan.

No bajwa, you have no right to judge me, i have given you reason why the kid were expelled from school, If i were principal of that school, i would never let that happen

So far other than the "inherent evil" of all ahmadis, there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for this violation of these children's rights. Neither you nor anybody else can possibly justify this act by any means other than painting ahmadis to be evil enough to "deserve" persecution.

See, bajwa ahmedies have chosen evil for themselves --- They choose the sides of evil and you know people forget injuries but they don't forget insult
You see bajwa

Mirza Ghulam proudly wrote:
"My father was a well-known landlord in this country and he enjoyed great eminence in the Government's offices. He was a true devotee and well wisher of the British Government. In the mutiny of 1857 (the Muslim independence movement against colonialism is called 'mutiny' by Mirza), my father supplied fifty horses and riders to aid the British Government. For this favor to the Government, he was very popular among the officials."
(Izala-e-Auham, P. 58, footnote)

This is one of reason why majority of people hate ahem-dies --- these innocent kid didn't know, the real reason why they were expelled from school... Their parents wouldn't dare to tell them real reason--- why there is so much hatred for themselves -- It's fault of their parent who brainwash their children about their religion --- They don't tell these children the real face of Ahemdiat -- They are themselves ignorant about their religion so their children are ---

You and your ilk may try to whitewash your conscience by pointing to the oft-mentioned "worldwide ahmadi conspiracy", the "zionist/british conspiracy" and any other unproven and patently ridiculous theory, but that does not change the fact that there quite simply is NO JUSTIFICATION for persecution of CHILDREN for the "sins" of their parents.

Bajwa look it very simple

1. Mirza Ghulam finished Jihad with Swrod which highly favored Bristish government --- Because they were receiving a high resistance by the muslim
2. He tried to make people well wisher of Bristisher
3. He attacked on Muslim faith by claiming he is second coming of Jesus and new prophet after mohammad
4. He tried of finish islam by making it a new religion

Anyhow it doesn't really matter. Even the grandest of lies cannot defeat the smallest of truths. No matter the justification, the inherent injustice and complete contradiction of Islamic principle is there for all to see. Cloak it in whatever weak justification you wish.

I agree but, don't you see the injustice done by mirza ghulam against muslim-- Can i call it consequences of that injustice

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 9:52 #
hkbajwa
Member

Oblivion

You consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to have committed an injustice. Fine.. and you consider expulsion of these students and a valid "consequence"???

Where does your merciless version of Islam permit the visitation of punishment on the offspring of "sinners"??

Fact is that it doesn't. But i'm sure you can "prove" otherwise.

Anyhow no point arguing any further with you as you seem to be well-armed with XYZ "proof" of the evil of ahmedies and thus justify anything done to them.

Truth is truth, and the truth is that persecution is the tool employed by those of weak faith and weaker integrity. You may defend it all you wish, but the truth of such injustice is quite plain for all to see. Good luck trying to "prove" it otherwise

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 10:05 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

"If i were principal of that school, i would never let that happen"

I take it you do not condone the expulsion of these children from school on the basis of their being Ahmadi - correct?

if so why go on about Ahmadis.

its very simple - there was no reason to expel those children and these kind of acts should be condemned - True or False?

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 10:13 #
shafiq12
member

bajwa --

Don't get me wrong -- You see, it is ignorance/cheating of parents of those kids who were expelled from school, They taught their children Ahemdiayat as shining religion but they hide dark side from them--- they don't tell their children why they are being hated --- It's their parent who have chosen insult for their children --- They don't discuss books of mirza ghulam which are full of abusives in their families ----- They have created a religion of their minds on the otherhand they aren't following the original ahmediyat in their homes --- They call themselves ahmedies because their parents were attached to this religion ---- Now tell bajwa, what is fault of those innocent kid which are born in ahemdis family --- even there was no ahmediyat in those familes -- Is name always matter --

======================================================

I take it you do not condone the expulsion of these children from school on the basis of their being Ahmadi - correct?

Yes, correct but don't think five figure are equal

its very simple - there was no reason to expel those

It not as simple as you r expecting, there is reason behind this act

children and these kind of acts should be condemned - True or False?

gv, be reasonable, i am educating bajwa about real reason why they were expelled -- bajwa must know, why there is so much hatred for ahmedies that even their children aren't safe, on the other hand, i have given you idea i don't support such acts

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 10:33 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Oblivion

What are you trying to teach me?

That sufficient hatred is enough justification for persecution of minors?

That children should be punished for following the faith of their parents?

That ahmadi children are not "real" children anyhow and thus not deserving of the basic rights of children?

That ahmadi parents are to blame for the persecution their children face (rather than the disgusting mullah creeps persecuting them)?

That "real" muslims have the right to disregard basic islamic tenets as long as they persecute "fake" muslims?

I cannot even begin to convey how incredibly disgusting i find your argumentation to be. It is primitive, merciless, hypocritical and unworthy of a human being.

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 10:44 #
shafiq12
member

@ Oblivion

What are you trying to teach me?

i am trying to teach you, what you hadn't learn from your family --- why because it's natural for a man to defend his creed

That children should be punished for following the faith of their parents?

Those children were punished because they were ahmedi, and majority of muslim believe ahmedis as anti muslims -- See, it's an honest view --- You can't blame me for the action which i hadnt done

That ahmadi children are not "real" children anyhow and thus not deserving of the basic rights of children?

Bajwa, i have no clues what you are trying to say here...

That ahmadi parents are to blame for the persecution their children face (rather than the disgusting mullah creeps persecuting them)?

No, i ain't saying that, i am saying there is also fault of their parent for which the innocent suffer

I cannot even begin to convey how incredibly disgusting i find your argumentation to be. It is primitive, merciless, hypocritical and unworthy of a human being.

bajwa, it's not merciless because i don't run those school, i don't educate those mind who are filled with harted against Ahmedies --- I am just trying to tell, why there is so much hatred for Ahmedies ----- I have given you reason
Now to whom you blame guns or people

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 11:00 #
shafiq12
member

bajwa

Have you ever wonder

Another Proud moment for Pakistan

You are blaming Pakistan for an action of school, Are all school in pakistan same, Do you think, it is good to generalize things --- on the other hand, you are saying

These kids were students. They had no business being dragged into the religious war of persecution conducted by our esteemed mullahists. Even the principal disagreed with their expulsion.......

You dragged whole pakistan for an action of school

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 11:49 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Oblivion

You are attempting to present the hatred against ahmadis as justifiable, and by proxy justifying the persecution this hatred brings along.

Hatred against a belief system contrary to yours is NOT justifiable. Nor is the extent of the hatred in any way a justification for persecution.

Any parent always tries to raise their child according to the belief system they consider best. If ahmadi parents believed one thing and raised their children according to a more "socially acceptable" faith, would they not be failing to do their duty as parents? If children denounced their parents' faith based on the hateful propaganda of professional mullahs, would they not be failing in their duty to their parents?

The arguments you are making and the things you are expecting from people is fundamentally unjust and impossible in Islam. A parent cannot send their child down a road they consider incorrect any more than a child can disregard and disrespect their parents for what they believe.

You may not be directly culpable in this particular case, but your attempts to justify a completely unislamic and unjust act by rationalizing the hatred of the hateful clearly shows your tacit approval of such.

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 12:13 #
LifeH2O
Member

@hkbajwa
I was saying that if all of them were "preaching" their illicit beliefs (like mullahs do), right action has been taken.
But as a matter of fact, this happens only one way, for minorities only.

Posted 7 months ago on 11 Oct 2011 20:03 #
shafiq12
member

You are attempting to present the hatred against ahmadis as justifiable, and by proxy justifying the persecution this hatred brings along.

Let's discuss in detail, I ain't justifying anything, The hate, which is present in hearts of muslim against ahemdies, is natural --- i have given you enough detail why majority of muslims hate ahmedies ---
You know something about Holocaust... The source of this information is wiki
genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler, throughout Nazi-occupied territory. Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds perished. More than one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7] Broad definitions of the Holocaust include the Nazis' genocide of millions of people in other groups...... Do you know why Hitler hated so much jews --- by no, mean i am comparing hiltler with muslims, he was worse on this planet earth ---- Now see expelling of kids in image of halocaust, it nothing to be compared--- Majority of muslims thinks ahmedies as anit muslim, anti Islam as Hilter thought jews were only source of Problems in the world --- and why muslims think ahmedi as anti muslim --i think i don't have to go into it --- You know the reason

Hatred against a belief system contrary to yours is NOT justifiable. Nor is the extent of the hatred in any way a justification for persecution.

See bajwa, muslim don't hate any belief system --- they have no problem with people of other religion as you article is clearly saying:-

“I’ve never seen Christians and students belonging to other religions ever having to deal with such restrictions,” the distraught father says.
“I personally opposed the expulsion on the basis of faith,” Muslim Public School Principal Yasir Abbas responds when contacted by The Express Tribune.

Now why so much hate for ahemdies -- You know what ahemdies believe isn't just simply a belief system --- It's an attack on muslim faith --- Ahmediyat is totally attack on muslims faith--- It's just not simply as belief system --- The hatred has a source --- Suppose i believe, your god is tyrant --- my belief is simply an attack on your faith --- there will be natural hatred in your mind against me

Any parent always tries to raise their child according to the belief system they consider best. If ahmadi parents believed one thing and raised their children according to a more "socially acceptable" faith, would they not be failing to do their duty as parents? If children denounced their parents' faith based on the hateful propaganda of professional mullahs, would they not be failing in their duty to their parents?

Bajwa, do parents not know, how ahemdies are being treated in Pakistan, then why do they scarify their children at altar of their beliefs --- Is "ahamdiyat" more important than the dignity and honour of their children --- These parents are equally blamable --- Is the word "ahamdi" matters for them over education and future of their children --- why they don't tell their children not to expose their religion to other --- or why they fill the biodata of these kids with ahamdiyat---- on the other hand, they believe themselves as muslim --- Is Islam not enough for bio data of these innocents --- I am sure you would get the point here

The arguments you are making and the things you are expecting from people is fundamentally unjust and impossible in Islam. A parent cannot send their child down a road they consider incorrect any more than a child can disregard and disrespect their parents for what they believe.

Bajwa, orthodox muslim hate ahmedies as hilter hated jews --- these parents scarify their children in the name of Ahamdiyat with knowing the facts ---- They are equally involved in crime ---- I didn't create hate in those minds against ahmedies

You may not be directly culpable in this particular case, but your attempts to justify a completely unislamic and unjust act by rationalizing the hatred of the hateful clearly shows your tacit approval of such.

bajwa, i ain't justyfying any thing --- i am telling you the reason and course of an action which has a 2 centuries background

Posted 7 months ago on 12 Oct 2011 5:33 #
shafiq12
member

i think bajwa wouldn't reply here for another year --- so long bajwa

Posted 7 months ago on 12 Oct 2011 10:28 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Oblivion

Again you are shamelessly putting the blame on these children's plight on their parents because "the parents should know how lousy it is to be ahmedi and therefore should teach their children to NOT be ahmedi."

I mean that a purely idiotic statement. It's like saying that the muslims in Mecca before hijrat should have taught their children to be kaafirs to protect them from the hatred of the Quraysh.

It is patently impossible for parents to preach a different religion to their kids from what they themselves believe.

You may call the ahmedi faith "criminal", but a parent teaching their kid what they beleive is RIGHT is NOT a crime. It is the parents' DUTY to teach their children the faith they consider to be RIGHT. How is it that you fail to understand such a fundamental concept of parenthood.

And you are trying to make parents who act as ALL parents in the world do, equal parties in a crime of hatred and persecution committed by mullahs and a mob.

You keep saying you are not justifying anything, but fact is that you are justifying the extreme hatred, the tendency to violence and the persecution of ahmedis because of what they believe. You claim that muslims have the "right" to feel so angry that they kill, maim and persecute. THey do not.

It is true i fear. I do not care to continue debating with you any further. I took a break from pkpolitics because i had hoped some of the shamful mullah rehtoric may have abated.

But seeing as persecution of minorities is still being justified, that the "pukka musalamaans" on this forum still have a horribly misplaced arrogance about their faith i guess there is nothing to be done.

I am ashamed that this is the quality of the discourse in Pakistan. Ashamed and sad.

Posted 7 months ago on 12 Oct 2011 11:19 #
shafiq12
member

Again you are shamelessly putting the blame on these children's plight on their parents because "the parents should know how lousy it is to be ahmedi and therefore should teach their children to NOT be ahmedi."

Bajwa it is fact, beautiful phrases can't change it. See, if you love your children more than religion than you have to leave religion ---- and if you love your religion more than children, then don't complain suffering of children --- It's you who have chosen suffering for children in the name of religion --- with knowing all the facts --- The kids don't know why they were expelled from school, parents know....

I mean that a purely idiotic statement. It's like saying that the muslims in Mecca before hijrat should have taught their children to be kaafirs to protect them from the hatred of the Quraysh.

Bajwa, it isn't idiotic statement --- See, case of muslims before hijrat is totally different and they chose suffering for themselves --- They didn't complain anyone about this suffering --- they chose that suffering keeping all the circumstance in mind--- They didn't said why were they being treated like that way --- They were happy in that living because they knew what they had chosen for themselves --- If you are comparing case ahmedies with earlier muslims, then you should remember earlier didn't complain for any suffering to the world or the Quraish of Makkah---- on other hand your article is clearing contradicting this situation

It is patently impossible for parents to preach a different religion to their kids from what they themselves believe.

Bajwa, see ahmedies called themsevles muslim, they say, they are follower of prophet -- there is so many similarity between ahamdiyat and islam --- expect Mirza Ghulam with respect --- so nothing is impossible --- It's simple, parents don't want to scarify their religion and the other hand they scarify their children for religion and then complain about it ---

You may call the ahmedi faith "criminal", but a parent teaching their kid what they beleive is RIGHT is NOT a crime. It is the parents' DUTY to teach their children the faith they consider to be RIGHT. How is it that you fail to understand such a fundamental concept of parenthood.

I don't call ahmedi faith "criminal". Its what people think about Ahmedies --- Will any parent let their children in jungle full of beast ---If parent let their children, it's fault of parents not the beast --- Majority of Ahmedies parents, including yourself know that Pakistan isn't good place for Ahmedies --- Yet they scarify their children for their religion and then complain about it--- it's pure hypocrisy -- It is same as i put knife in my ar$e when it start bleeding then i complain what i have done

it is true i fear. I do not care to continue debating with you any further. I took a break from pkpolitics because i had hoped some of the shamful mullah rehtoric may have abated.

it's ignorance which put fear in your heart, otherwise, you run because you don't know how to stay here

Posted 7 months ago on 12 Oct 2011 12:01 #
LifeH2O
Member

@oblivion You are justifying intolerant behaviour of your fellow preachers.

"Yet they scarify their children for their religion and then complain about it--- it's pure hypocrisy"
Muslims do the same in non muslim countries, you are lucky to be in a so called Muslim country.
Try to replace ahmedis with muslims in your arguments.

" It is same as i put knife in my ar$e ..." there are the words of a preacher. What a shame.

Posted 7 months ago on 12 Oct 2011 12:47 #
shafiq12
member

lifeh20

You want to start debate on it, i ain't justifying anything ---- i am giving you reason why muslim hate ahemdies--- on the other hand, you and bajwa, both are justifying these actions in future for not blaming their parents who prefer religion over these innocents ---- Somebody ought to tell them what is fault these kids for which they are being scarified --- bajwa is cleary justifying future expelling of Ahmedi kids, you can't change mind of majority of pakistani muslims ----- Simple example is enough for this purpose, Suppose i know path X is dangerous for my kid, and i choose path X for my kid to cross the jungle--- Then to whom do you blame jungle, kid or me --- obviosly, i am responsible for what i have chosen for kid, Same case of ahmedies kid ---- majority of Ahmedies parents, including bajwa know pakistan isn't good place for ahmedies --- keeping all this in mind, if something happens then they are responsible for that--- Because it is pakistan, a jungle with no law

Posted 7 months ago on 12 Oct 2011 18:30 #
shaagird
Member

oblivious,
we know you can write n type bullsh*t forever and can not get tired

Posted 7 months ago on 13 Oct 2011 12:20 #
shafiq12
member

oh well,look who is here,

Shaagird, long time no see, do you have anything in mind, what do you think what i had written

Posted 7 months ago on 13 Oct 2011 12:33 #
shaagird
Member

lol. to be honest, i havent bothered myself to read the senseless things that u've written...
i just had to make an entry to make u uneasy

if anyone is defending an ahmedi [not AHMEDIYAT] on a HUMANITARIAN [islamic] basis... u assume that the defender too is an ahmedi...

when this is your level of 'debate' and reasoning... i can not indulge in a verbal assault with you then...

Posted 7 months ago on 13 Oct 2011 14:38 #
shafiq12
member

hiya, shaagird, thanks for your bigoted views

Posted 7 months ago on 14 Oct 2011 6:08 #
shaagird
Member

you are welcome :)

Posted 7 months ago on 14 Oct 2011 20:30 #
shafiq12
member

shaagird
I don't want you to welcome me ;)

Posted 7 months ago on 15 Oct 2011 6:02 #
shaagird
Member

but i'll still welcome you ;)

Posted 7 months ago on 15 Oct 2011 12:51 #
shafiq12
member

shaagird,

You break my wishes and heart -- It is my wish not to welcome by you yet you take advantage of force

"Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da dil na dhain, Rab dilaan vich rehnda"

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 15:28 #
LifeH2O
Member

@oblivion
Stupid argument against that verse of poetry, how do you often interpret verses of Allama Iqbal?

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 15:59 #
shaagird
Member

hahahaha
oblivious man, u r ridiculous =D

Posted 7 months ago on 16 Oct 2011 20:41 #
shafiq12
member

life h20
Isn't what meant by this verse ---

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 9:42 #
LifeH2O
Member

@oblivion
Please for a moment, watch it from another angel from where this verse looks right.

# Whenever you do a wrong deed you are going to hurt someone. Now if you are not sure what is wrong and what is right, just do one thing, do anything you like but DON'T hurt anyone. #

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 16:23 #
shafiq12
member

life h20

# Whenever you do a wrong deed you are going to hurt someone. Now if you are not sure what is wrong and what is right, just do one thing, do anything you like but DON'T hurt anyone. #

Your interpretation doesn't come into the definition verse--
See, here are point
in the first para

"Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da"
What is masjid, what is its status in religion and after that he said, demolish whatever you wish --- It means if a person wants to break Mosque, let him do so, don't break his heart---- and what is good deed and wrong deed --- It's religion, which defines good deeds --- but according to bulley shah, it is heart which decides, what is good deed --- See, if a person heavy drinker, by the teaching of bulley shah, you aren't allowed to stop him from drinking--- as are you breaking his heart ------ You aren't allowed to follow you religion, as heart is place where God lives, God doesn't live in Masjid, Mandar --- religion

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 18:09 #
LifeH2O
Member

@oblivion
There is a thing in poetry as i found, it can have many meanings depending on how and where you use it.

If you are breaking a mosque or mandar you are still breaking a heart.

There is a story often told to prove 'jhoot tamam buraion ki jarr hay' that once someone asked how to avoid wrong doings, he was told to only to speak truth.
And when he started speaking truth he had to reveal his wrong doings, and so he stopped all his wrong doings.
Those verses are in a similar way. Anyway this is offtopic, I hope you understood.

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 18:18 #
shafiq12
member

If you are breaking a mosque or mandar you are still breaking a heart.

But your interpretation has got nothing to do with first para---- If i apply, your interpretation to bulley, then he was contradicting himself ---
========
You said'

If you are breaking a mosque or mandar you are still breaking a heart.

but bulley shah said ----

"Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da"

Bulley shah, himself had broken hearts of many by attacking on mosque and manders, to convey his message --- See, you are making no sense ---

Life h20, please read some more poets, and interpret things as the words are in the poetry --- You are trying to join frog tail with elephant

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 18:27 #
shaagird
Member

oblivious
you dont know how to recite and understand poetry
dont impose your interpretation on the shair and the readers of shairi

dont take shairi so literally, it is one of the most difficult and complex medium of expression. when bhulley shah says "Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da", he doesnt literally mean that you should go and start demolishing mosques, mandirs and other places of worship......

what he means to say is that you should be a good human being, a good muslim at heart.... your love for peace, harmony that islam teaches should be so strong that you conquer the minds and hearts of people through love and peace.... if thats how u'll go on to spread the message of islam, by changing hearts, filling them with harmony and peace and lovely teachings of islam, then no man will hurt anybody....

and when such a society will form, tolerance, co-existence will prevail.... nobody will do any harm to mosques, mandirs, synagogues, etc

agar aap pyar mohabbat say aapas mein mil k rahein ge, tou automatically koi kisi or ki ibadatgah ko nuqsaan nahin pauhnchaye ga

Posted 7 months ago on 18 Oct 2011 20:39 #
LifeH2O
Member

"Bulley shah, himself had broken hearts of many by attacking on mosque and manders, to convey his message"

You need to read more.
How would you explain Allama Iqbal's Shikwa and Jawab-e-Shikwa? He was directly talking to Allah? Was he saying all nonsense while calling Allah in poetry? You have read Allama a lot perhaps, there are many such verses in his poetry.

You can say that he was doing nonsense in Shikwa and probably shirk in Jawab-e-Shikwa, right??

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 6:58 #
shafiq12
member

Ah, you ignorant kids --- you know nothing about poetry and started wasting my time ---

dont take shairi so literally-----

you must to keep literal words in mind while interpreting poetry --- You are doing a great job by proving majority of poets are hypocrites --- they misguide manmind kind as no one really knows what they really meant -- great job that's you are making my job easy

what he means to say is that you should be a good human being, a good muslim at heart.... your love for peace, harmony that islam teaches should be so strong that you conquer the minds and hearts of people through love and peace.... if thats how u'll go on to spread the message of islam, by changing hearts, filling them with harmony and peace and lovely teachings of islam, then no man will hurt anybody....

who will believe your interpretations which doesn't match with life, verse and beliefs of bulley shah --- He had placed masjid and mander at same place to convey his message -- -what else is left there -- and you are telling to be me about good muslim --- In the views of bulley shah, he isn't good muslim who believe in Allah, he is good muslim who don't break hearts of other --- It means, a hindus, who is connect to holly sh!t of cow --- let me be connected with, don't break his heart by guiding him that "**** is injurious to his health"

agar aap pyar mohabbat say aapas mein mil k rahein ge, tou automatically koi kisi or ki ibadatgah ko nuqsaan nahin pauhnchaye ga

ufff my brain

============================================================
Life h20

How would you explain Allama Iqbal's Shikwa and Jawab-e-Shikwa? He was directly talking to Allah? Was he saying all nonsense while calling Allah in poetry? You have read Allama a lot perhaps, there are many such verses in his poetry.

What is wrong with shikwa and jowab e skiwa --- if you have problem with Shikwa then read Jowab e Shkiwa --- Did, Allama iqbal said somthing like this

"Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da"

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 7:39 #
stingingnettle
Member

hkbajwa;

I have never ventured into the Faith and Religion section and this is the very first time.

I read you comments with care and attention and I must say what you say is logical, fair and common sense.

I have nothing but respect for the patience and clarity with which you have made a very convincing case against intolerance, stupidity and frenzied-behaviour.

Any children, Sunni, Shia, Christians, Hindu, Ahmedis or believers of any other faith; No one deserve to be treated in this savage way. A hugely retrograde moment for Pakistan.

You might be head-butting a brick wall in trying to make a rational case based on common sense.

Thank you for educating me today. This is not a statement I make lightly. You have articulated what a lot of us think but often can't find the courage, time and words to say.

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 11:37 #
LifeH2O
Member

@oblivion
THere you go, How Allama Iqbal can answer on behalf of God? Isn't it shirk? He was answering in Jawab e Shikwa as God???

Posted 7 months ago on 19 Oct 2011 17:36 #
shafiq12
member

Here you go, like i said, you are trying to become smart and geniurs but infact you aren't ---

How Allama Iqbal can answer on behalf of God?

All the answers, which were given by Allama iqbal, are in context with Quran and Islam ---- post single verse in the whole jawab e shikwa which violates Islam and Quran --- I think you need to study his life as well other than poetry

He was answering in Jawab e Shikwa as God???

He didnt claim to be God --- you ignorant one -- He showed us in jowab e shikwa, what God wants from us keeping Quran and Islam in his mind --- I think, you have done quite well to expose your ignorance -- please carry on

Posted 7 months ago on 20 Oct 2011 7:20 #
LifeH2O
Member

@oblivion
That was just giving an example of different ways to interpret poetry. You may get the wrong meaning and "expose your ignorance" becoming "ignorant one" or see the "context" to get it right.

Posted 7 months ago on 20 Oct 2011 10:08 #
shafiq12
member

life h20 --

"Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da"

No sane Person or any poet would interpret above verse like this way as you have interpreted --- It is making you dishonest

If you are breaking a mosque or mandar you are still breaking a heart.

You are misinterpreting things to prove your points

Posted 7 months ago on 20 Oct 2011 10:31 #
NNL
member

Oblivion

A man who never ever was in the company of the Ulema of Ahl Sunnah wa Jammah just suddenly decides to enforce his interpretation of what God wants us to think and do ?

A Sufi tells you what God thinks or talks about and you go ahead and believe it ?

Hmmmm........

Usually arent you the one shouting on everyone about their interpretation of Ayats and Ahadiths and what little knowledge that they have in a very holier than thou attitude but seems like your passion Iqbal and Bulley Shah has made you blind from following verses which are very very clear.

Shall I inform you (O people!) upon whom the Shayatin (devils) descend? (221)

They descend on every lying (one who tells lies), sinful person. (222)

Who gives ear (to the devils and they pour what they may have heard of the unseen from the angels), and most of them are liars. (223)

As for the poets, the erring follow them, (224) .

See you not that they speak about every subject (praising others right or wrong) in their poetry? (225)

And that they say what they do not do. (226) .

Except those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds, and remember Allah much, and reply back (in poetry) to the unjust poetry (which the pagan poets utter against the Muslims). And those who do wrong will come to know by what overturning they will be overturned. (227)

Posted 7 months ago on 20 Oct 2011 22:07 #
NNL
member

PS i know i am a wahabi/salafi so dont tell me something i know.

Posted 7 months ago on 20 Oct 2011 22:10 #
shafiq12
member

NNL :
Poetry is form of expression, a media to change state and minds of ignorant -- Iqbal use this form of media to bring revolution in the lives of People --- Your favorite Scholar, Doctor Israr, do you know what changes his life --- one verse of Iqbal

وہ زمانے میں معزز تھے مسلماں ہو کر
اور تم خوار ہوے تارک قرآں ہو کر

Also see
" Ubayy Ibn Ka'ab, Radi-Allahu anhu, reports Rasulullah (s.a.w) as having said; "Poetry contains (much) wisdom." (Mishkaat with Mirqaat Vol. 9 Pg. 122 Ashrafiyyah)."

A Sufi tells you what God thinks or talks about and you go ahead and believe it ?

If sufi's poetry doesn't bring destruction to God's law and doesn't distract people from God, then there is nothing wrong in that poetry ---

"Poetry in its essence is not what is forbidden in Islam. It is poetry that that does nothing but promotes and instigates indecency, illegal lusts and desires, and inspires one towards transgression of the boundaries of Islam. (Just like how Kab ibn Ashraf did, read this article

It is indeed true that the Messenger of Allah (saws) did not like poets and poetry, which sensationalized and encouraged the pursuit of the world and its alluring lusts. But he encouraged those poets whose poetry praised Allah, and contained words of wisdom which related to the guidance to Allah. "

Usually arent you the one shouting on everyone about their interpretation of Ayats and Ahadiths and what little knowledge that they have in a very holier than thou attitude but seems like your passion Iqbal and Bulley Shah has made you blind from following verses which are very very clear.

Here is interpretation of these verse by a famous scholar

Tafsir Jalalyn>> 26:224 = As for the poets, [only] the perverse follow them, in their poetry, propounding it and reciting it on their behalf to others; they are thus reprehensible.
Tafsir Ibn Abbas >> 26:224 = (As for poets) 'Abdullah Ibn al-Zib'ari and his host who composed poetry, (the erring follow them) those who transmit poetry relate it from them.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas >> 26:225 = (Hast thou not seen how they) the poets (stray) they come and go, sometimes eulogizing and sometimes satirizing (in every valley) in every genre and theme,
Tafsir Jalalyn 26:225 = Have you not noticed that — are you not aware that — in every valley, of the valleys of rhetoric and the art thereof, they rove, overstepping the bounds [of decency] in [their] eulogies and diatribes,

Tafsir Jalalyn 26:226 = and that they say, we do, what they do not do?, in other words, that they lie.

Tafsir Jalalyn 26:227 = Save those, poets, who believe and perform righteous deeds and remember God frequently, in other words, [those whom] poetry does not distract from the remembrance [of God], and vindicate themselves, by lampooning the disbelievers, after they have been wronged, by the disbelievers’ reviling of them [as belonging] together with all believers — such [individuals] are not reprehensible. God, exalted be He, says: God does not like the utterance of evil words out loud, unless a person has been wronged [Q. 4:148]; He, exalted be He, also says: so whoever commits aggression against you, commit aggression against him in the manner that he committed against you [Q. 2:194]; and those, poets and others, who are wrongdoers will soon know the reversal, the return, with which they will meet, [by which] they will return, after death.

"What is important for us to analyze in these verses are the context of these revelations.
Arabs at the time when our beloved Prophet (peace, blessings, glory and salutation on him) started receiving the divine revelations of the verses of the Holy Quran and started to convey the same to the pagan arabs, they found these verses to be very poetic, very soothing, very heart pleasing etc - but most of them declined to adhere to the meanings and implications thereof > One God, One Creator thou shall worship and thou shall not equate with Him any other god or godes and believe in Muhammed (peace, blessings, glory and salutation on him) to be messenger of Allah.

These disbelievers, idol worshippers hired Arab poets to recite poetry defaming Muhammed (peace, blessings, glory and salutation on him) and Allah's verses.

Then Allah revealed these verses - about the outcome of those poets at the time of Muhammed (peace, blessings, glory and salutation on him). It is in no way FORBIDDING poetry."

Posted 7 months ago on 21 Oct 2011 5:57 #
shaagird
Member

@NNL and oblivious

awww, 2 bhaiyon mein phoot par gayee

guys, mend you ties and beliefs
it isnt challenging to debate with a group of people jin mein aapas mein he phoot pari hui ho! =P

good luck!

i hope my post serves as a patch up between you two!
cause i believe in peace, unity, love and ISLAM =)

Posted 7 months ago on 21 Oct 2011 12:03 #
shafiq12
member

shaagird --

awww, 2 bhaiyon mein phoot par gayee

That's what exactly shia do --- you can open history and scroll pages -- you will find truth

Posted 7 months ago on 21 Oct 2011 12:09 #

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