RajputPuttar
Member
Chapter 1 Article 25 of islamic republic of Pakistan
"
Equality of citizens.
(1) All citizens are equal before law and are entitled to equal protection of law.
(2) There shall be no discrimination on the basis of sex alone.
(3) Nothing in this Article shall prevent the State from making any special provision for the protection of women and children.
"
I invite all to have a comment.
khanseena1
Member
Whats there to comment.
WARNING-Provoking label edited.
kq
Member
Ofcourse they are not. Can a minority become the Prime Minister or the President of Pakistan. No! So, the muslim voter is superior, and they are not equal before law.
@Rajput
Chapter 1 Article 25 of islamic republic of Pakistan
What does it mean
infact republic and Islam are different thing
Republic means ruler ship of people
In islam supreme authority goes to Allah subhaana Tahala
So u should write Republic of Pakistan
toamin
member
different laws have different qualification criteria, some want one to be local born, some want one to have particular religion, some want one to have particular ethnicity etc etc
so can one say that law is discriminatory because of these criteria?
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
I will accept that which Islam says in this matter.
The same discrimination can be seen against Muslims, in other nations.
Why you only choose to criticize Muslims for it, makes me question your 'intent' in posting this question ?
This is OUR! land. We/Muslims! rule over it. We/Muslims are to rule over it according to Islam's given standards.
RajputPuttar
Member
Bahiya
Abhi doosray thread par tu aap supremcy of law kii baat kar rahey thaey.
Kiya yeh khula taazD nahi? (baqool shaaAir)
jaypk
Member
whd the..!!
if muslism are superior then the line shud be..:
1) All (MUSLIMS) are equal before law and are entitled to equal protection of law.
instead of :
1) All (citizens) are equal before law and are entitled to equal protection of law.
nice thread...but i m pretty sure it ll be moved to faith and religion shortly...besides minorities are living and will living a low life in pakistan until we acknowledge the true teachings of islam..!! thr are all sorts of sins and immoralities happenin in pakistan but we the thaikedars of islam only wake up when it comes to the issue of muslims or non muslims or callin anyone non mulism or making muslims superior then others. chori, daaka, zina, corruption, jhoot, ilzam tarashi, roza khori, sharab, rape, child molestation,.. ..sub chalta hay and no one talks abt islami nizam.. ..but whn it comes to callin muslims superior then others we become pious muslims...all of a sudden.!!
I have only seen one good example of these clause in "Islamic republic of Pakistan"(After constitution of 1973) which is Justice Rana Bhagwan Das as a caretaker cheif justice of Pakistan before retirement...
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@jaypk: The specifics about this point can be discussed. When they are, your reservation(s) will automatically be addressed.
The fact that they are not being treated well, stems from the fact that no one adheres to any kind of code of conduct, or law of the land within our borders. Minorities can't be singled out in this. That would be unfair.
Furthermore, isn't the following repeated time and gain on this forum;
When in Rome, do as the Romans do
for Muslims who live abroad ? It would be inconsiderate of you to accept that abroad, but deny it here. Perhaps it can even be termed as hypocritical of you.
Why should it not apply within Muslim land, when it can apply in non-Muslim land ? Their system, governance, policies, laws, etc etc are hailed as supreme to ours by some around here, be them Muslims or otherwise, in this regard.
That doesn't mean I'm negating the importance of rule of law. Rule of law is one of the highest points of Muslim civilization. Without it, Muslim civilization does not exist.
What I'm trying to say is, in Islam, or in Muslim civilization, ALL people are treated as equals. The only distinctive factor is who are loyal to ALLAH ALMIGHTY and who is not!.
That is the criteria. Discrimination among Muslims is not based on personal preference of a citizen, even if he is the Khaleefah or an influential person or a rich person or if he has status.
There's enough evidence in Hadees' to ensure you, that Islam does not! allow Muslims to treat minorities the wrong way.
I have already said, I will accept that which Islam says in this matter. If my words are wrong according to Islam then I will accept my mistake, take back my words and apologize for them.
hkbajwa
Member
@ haris
I would like you to name a single country other than israel where religious affiliation makes a difference to your voting rights or to your right to hold office.
It is a completely different thing that no muslim has ever been voted in as president or prime minister of a non-muslim/secular country. I mean even if non-muslims were allowed to run for prime minister or president in Pakistan, it is extremely unlikely that they would win since muslims will tend to vote for muslims.
However you keep saying that this sort of institutionalized discrimination exists in other countries, whereas the fact is that it doesn't. I mean even the "greatest enemy of islam" India has had a muslim president. Yet no hindu, christian or any other minority could ever hope to achieve the same office here in Pakistan.
If you insist that non-muslims should be second grade citizens then so be it, but please don't try to point towards other countries as an excuse to mete out discrimination against non-muslims.
Even in those countries where there is a lot of antagonism towards muslims, their constitution does not forbid a muslim from becoming the leader.
That is the basic difference.. Under Pakistan's current law, whomever is declared non-muslim is automatically of lesser value than a muslim.
I like what you are saying that the only criteria is who is loyal to allah almighty. It is quite clear from every aspect, that only God will make that decision and no human being is empowered to judge another man's loyalty towards God. No man can judge whether God considers a good hindu better or worse than a bad muslim.
Therefore ALL laws based on religious affiliation should be scrapped. Now mind you this does not mean that sharia law should not be followed. Sharia law should be followed indeed, but all classification of citizens according to religious affiliation must be stopped. All laws should be the same for all citizens. Likewise all opportunities should be the same for all citizens regardless of ethnic, political or religious affiliation.
LalBichoo
Blocked
hkbajwa,
"""I mean even the "greatest enemy of islam" India has had a muslim president.""'
>>>
Nahi Bhai, India has had four Muslims as President of India so far !
Dr Zakir Hussain 1967-05-13 to 1969-05-03
Muhammad Hidayat Ullah (acting) 1969-07-20 to 1969-08-24
Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed 1974-08-24 to 1977-02-11
Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam 2002-07-25 to -----
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/List_of_Presidents_of_India/
toamin
member
regarding "I mean even the "greatest enemy of islam" India has had a muslim president."
and "greatest enemy of hindu" Pakistan has had acting chief justice bhagwan das, right now serving as chairman FPSC
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
We have seen plenty examples of;
(1) non-Muslim rulers
(2) the decisions they made at the time of partition in 1947
ALL of us should know, should remember, should understand repercussions of those decisions, which we, our people still have to go through today.
(a) Were the decisions made by those non-Muslim rulers, in the best interest of Muslims ?
We need to learn! lessons from history, rather than ignore or sideline reality.
india kay dramay hain.
1000s of Muslims ko markay .
10000000s of Muslims kay haq pe daka dal kay.
1000000000s of Muslims ko zinda dargor kar kay .
4 Muslims ko President bana diya tu bara kamal kiya .
hkbajwa
Member
@ Salam
No doubt and our nation is better for it. However that does not change the fact that according to our constitution certain citizens are barred from leading the country not because of their qualifications, but rather because they do not belong to an "acceptable" religion.
Equal rights mean that you cannot be treated differently based on your ethnic, cultural or religious affiliation. TO be barred from running for higher office is discrimination whichever way you look at it.
What i dislike about the attitude we have here in pakistan is the fact that we love harping on about how "well" we treat our minorities, yet in the same breath we tell them that they are simply not fit to lead the country on account of their religious beliefs.
Either all people are equal or not.. there is no such thing as "sort of" equal.
toamin
member
answer is simple that is because of american war of terror
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: I accept as well as support this discrimination, if this is discrimination. It is only fair.
I will not accept a non-Muslim ruler for Muslims.
Muslims have had more than enough lessons to learn from their past, even as recent a past as 1947.
The reality of your claim of non-discrimination theory in other nations is laughable at best. Go to other nations and see how they treat, how they discriminate Muslims.
toamin
member
hkbajwa,
what is discrimination for me in US is justice for them and what is discrimination for US is justice for me
we are all holding our value systems and judging each other
@hamarapakistan,
good question.
in Pakistan, reps and slaves of US and India are doing this service on behalf of their respective masters .
hkbajwa
Member
@ haris
This limited communal thinking that you seem to espouse is precisely what causes mistrust and hatred between humans.
Just because a man does not belong to my tribe/nation/religion does not mean that he will autmatically make decisions that will harm my tribe/nation/religion.
Muslims are supposed to look beyond such petty affiliation politics.
A bad muslim can cause greater harm to muslims than a good hindu for instance.
We put far too much importance on the affiliations of others rather than on their characters. Affiliations may affect character, but it is character we should judge, not affiliation.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: I'm sorry, your telling me to ignore the lessons we'v learned the hard way. I'm not prepared to do that under any circumstances.
Tomorrow you'll also be telling me Muslims should marry non-Muslim women. Its an abuse of their basic human rights that Muslim male don't prefer non-Muslim women for marriage.
I'm sorry. Your logic is flawed. We'v already been stung by non-Muslim rulers many a times, as I'v already mentioned.
@hamara pakistan: Don't blow things out of proportion. We don't discriminate them in these matters.
hkbajwa
Member
@ haris
I have lived a sufficient part of my life in varous countries abroad and i can assure you that there is discrimination everywhere in the world, including pakistan.
the difference however, is that in pakistan such discrimination has been codified in our constitution. No other country in the world bars people from holding office based on their religion. Thus there is a basic contradiction in our constitution. Our constitution states (as was Jinnah's dream) that all citizens are EQUAL. By denying certain citizens the right to hold higher office, our constitution has broken the constitution.. heh.
You say you will never accept a non-muslim ruler of a muslim country?? Great.. fantastic.. nobody is forcing that upon you either. And if our system of government truly is representative, then it simply wont be POSSIBLE for a non-muslim to gain enough votes.
The reality is that non-muslims will never win enough votes in an overwhelmingly muslim country. SO why must it be a part of the constitution?? It's not even NEEDED to keep muslims out of higher office.
But at least one should give the minorities enough respect to let them RUN for the office. THere is greater dignity in losing an election than being barred from contesting.
To deny them this right is discrimination, it is uneccessary, unconstitutional and as i believe truly unislamic because it makes them lesser beings of the same God.. Whether they are lesser or not is not for you or any other human to decide.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: What difference does it make, codifying or not codifying ? The end result is the same.
toamin
member
hkbajwa
may i suggest you to plz revise your statement above "No other country in the world bars people from holding office based on their religion."
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
I don't know which lessons it is that you allude to. No doubt the british exploited the hell out of India, but they exploited a REGION, not a RELIGION. As a people of the sub-continent we must never allow foreign rulers to decide over us again. But tell me how does that apply to a pakistani christian or pakistani hindu???
They cannot be patriotic?? they cannot wish for the betterment of Pakistan? they cannot give their lives to protect this country?? It's nonsense to discriminate against a fellow citizen who has the same loyalty to this country simply because you decide his religion isn't "good enough".
As far as "lessons" are concerned, you have no explained what lessons you allude to. Our lesson was to never accept foreign rule. It has nothing to do with religious affiliation.
hkbajwa
Member
@ salam
Perhaps it was a stretch. Yet at least in the developed world from where we hear all this crying about discrimination against muslims, there is not one country where an idividual's religion prevents him from becoming a leader.
@ Haris
There's one HELL of a difference betwwen codified and not-codified.
In Europe or America, if a muslim gets enough votes he CAN become president.. but in pakistan even if a hindus wins by 90% of the votes, he is still not allowed to become president.
When it is codified, you are imposing a restriction on who the people may chose. But without it being codified at least it is up to the people whether they want a muslim or a hindu..
Isn't it supposed to be the choice of the citizens who they want??
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: You'r living in a fool's paradise if you think that.
No!, in case of Muslims, I make a crystal clear distinction, I draw a crystal clear line in this regard.
We require a leader who is loyal to ALLAH ALMIGHTY. A non-Muslim can never! fulfill this requirement.
Muslims do not need leaders from non-Muslims. Muslims adhere to the policy of self reliance in this matter.
I have already mentioned, we have learned too many lessons, too many times, even in recent past, to accept this proposition.
It is UNACCEPTABLE.
RajputPuttar
Member
Harris bahiya
on one side u speak of rule of law and on the other side u r not ready to accept it?
Kiya yeh khulla taazad nahi ? (baqool Sohail warraich)
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
Who are you to say whether a non-muslim can or can not be loyal to God? Are you God?? Are you a Prophet? Are you a Saint to whom God has revealed All?? NO you are not
You are a human just like everybody else and just because you say you are a muslim doesn't not make you one bit better than the rest. In the end it your actions that ONLY GOD will judge. You are noone to pass judgement. And it matters not a fig if you deem it acceptable or not. What matters is whether THE MAJORITY of our country deems it acceptable. And if they do then you can simply just SIT ON IT.
You are a citizen of Pakistan, but i doubt you have any loyalty to this country. Your loyalty is to the ummah i'm guessing. Fantastic for you, but in that case butt out of debates regarding the future of this country. Pakistan is for PAKISTANIS.. not for anybody else.
This nonsense you speak about "self reliance"... what does it mean. Does it mean that muslims should not have anything to do with non-muslims. That all muslim good should be only for muslims and all muslim welath should be shared only among muslims?? Does it mean that non-muslims should be excluded from a muslim society?? What the hell does this mean??
We need national self reliance. But we need that with the help and cooperation of ALL citizens of the state, not just muslims.
Please tell me though.. WHAT LESSONS ARE YOU SPEAKING OF?? WHat non-muslim pakistani leaders has so badly f***ed up our country that we have a lesson to learn from it??
toamin
member
well, i am not sure what is this debate about, pakistan is already a 95%+ muslim country and the law agreed upon by pakistanis is that a non-muslim can not be a ruler
a non-muslim can be a good technocrat like bhagwan das
hamarapakistan
Member
@haris
You could have done that if you dare but you can't because you don't have the power to do that. But what we are doing to minorities in pakistan? Have you forgot recent clashes among Muslims and christians when the so called Muslisms burned alive the christians?
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@RajputPuttar: Looks like you live far away from reality. Come back when you return to real life.
@hamara pakistan: Another baseless allegation.
Do you believe rule of law reigns over Pakistan, for ALL Pakistani citizens, let alone people from minorities ?
@hkbajwa: See the classic case of hypocritical arguments your going into ? i.e., non-Muslim being more loyal to ALLAH ALMIGHTY
I don't even feel the need to repeat, what I'v already repeated many times.
RajputPuttar
Member
Salam bahi
I didn't count u among those for which started from march 2007.
Around 35 years prior to Bhagwan
das we had justice corneliss who was cj of Pakistan for number of years.
Then how we can forget justice durab patel who refused to take oath 27 years prior to bdas
this is just for the sake of record
hamarapakistan
Member
@ haris
Oh yea!!!!
All our arguments are baseless and yours are the only true arguments. Come on man. Accept the reality.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hamara pakistan: You can't show me reality by giving false arguments, now can you ? Why should I accept something that is falsehood as reality ?
toamin
member
yes, there are other examples of non-muslim technocrats who sacrificed their career and stood up against dictators like dorab patel
a non-muslim doesn't mean an evil & corrupt person, we can utilize their services as technocrats-
hamarapakistan
Member
@haris
false argument?
which false argument I gave to you?
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
How is that hypocritical?? I merely asked where you claimed the right to say that a non-muslim cannot be loyal to God.
i'm not saying that he WILL be, but that's because i accept that this judgement is for God to make, not for me, you or any other human.
Exactly WHO are you to say whether a non-muslim can be loyal to GOd? Has God given you that right? If not, then pipe down.
Of course if you actually have a point to make i'ld be glad to hear it. Though i am beginning to doubt it.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: I'm sorry. You argument is flawed. You are consistently dwindling between two extremes, desperately looking to find stability, which is not possible.
I do not feel it necessary to continue on this point, with you.
Good day/evening.
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
hahahahahaha... theek hai yaar.. the great harrasmentkhan has decreed that my argument is flawed..
You never actually answered any of my questions. Just to remind you
1) What lessons have we to learn?
2) Who gave you the right to decide whether a non-muslim can be loyal to God?
Anyhow you go ahead and ignore them all you want. The reality that lies behind such questions however will not disappear :)
toamin
member
we all make mistakes and have weaknesses and it is a sign of strength to admit weakness or a mistake. why argue on and on and expose more and more weaknesses, i fail to understand.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: I haven't distorted anyone's name, nickname, username on this forum. Perhaps, it is too much to expect for you to do the same.
So much for your 'high' standards.
I think if the majority in a country like that of ours,is muslim and if the constitution of that country also declares "Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan" nd "A person shall not be qualified for election as President unless he is a Muslim" than by following the law of that land and keeping the majority in mind,only ppl who fit oon these conditions the most are the best suitable ones to rule!...and this shouldn't be taken as an insult to the minorities of that land...
Regarding India having muslims as President etc...well india is not our role model nd doesn't have the best democracy in the world!We are not obliged to follow what india does!
@Hamara Pakistan
Following your postings (none of them about the thread topic being discussed) I fail to understand if you are really interested in a rational discussion.
You are therefore advised to stay on topic. Avoid personal attacks while discussing the topic and not forum members.
I am removing all of your offtopic comments including that of others.
@hariskhan
See the classic case of hypocritical arguments your going into ? i.e., non-Muslim being more loyal to ALLAH ALMIGHTY
You are accusing a member of being a hypocrite just because a non Muslim being more loyal to Allah Almighty!
Kindly stop labeling forum members and using rude remarks against them. Your remarks have a negative impact on others.
hamarapakistan
Member
@semirza
Fair enough..:)
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@semirza: Well Mirza sb., its a perfectly logical argument. He's trying to pull in two extremes for bringing them together, which is infinitely impossible.
It has never happened in the entire history of mankind. What incentive do we have to believe his word on it ?
If we look at all through the last 2000+ years of history of mankind, you will automatically understand what I'm talking about.
hkbajwa
Member
@ Haris
Well pardon me for the unnecessary personal attack i made.
Let's talk about extremes. What extremes is it that i am trying to bring together?
I am trying to bring good people together irrespective of their stated religious affiliation.
What really matters in this world is belief. If a hindu christian, buddhist, zoroastrian, animist, jew, taoist, or nordic pagan believes that there is a higher power in the universe to which he is accountable, that he must treat his fellow humans with respect, that he must live with honesty, generosity and kindness, that he must work responsibly, sacrifice when called upon and show patience when life demands it, then that is a man who is close to God.
I am certainly not trying to bring extremes together. I am trying to make people find unity in belief, and not religion. Religion is just a label that most humans inherit. Belief is what really counts and it's what i believe God judges us by.
When i say that this nonsense restriction should be removed it is because as a muslim nation we should have the belief that only those close to God will lead it. Even if by some unprecedented chance a hindu or a christian etc. should gain enough popular support to be elected as prime minister, we must have faith that God would not place a destructive leader in charge.
Who guides the ummah is up to God, not Man.
In the mean time it would be best for Believers to eliminate all prejudice, anger and division between all of God's most favored creature (ashraf ul makhlooqat). And would start that by eliminating the false division of religious affiliation.
RajputPuttar
Member
@HarrisKhan
Iss baat koo charoo , mein koon sii duniya mein rehta hoon.
Speak of yourself.
Don't u calim to be champ of rule of law ? (I can show number of your such messages )
On the other hand
U r denying the constituion of Islamic Republic of Pakistan stating that u will accept what your belief / religion says ?
Whats the principle ? Constituion of Pakistan is supreme or your belief ?
Kiya yeh Khulla Tazad Nahi ?
And for your kind memory , the 1973 was signed by JI members as well . And for u further memory , in 1973 original constiution , there was joint electorate for both muslims and non-muslims. It was converted to separate electorate by a dicator (Zia) in 1985.
Harris bahi,
Abb mujhey saamjh naahi aa rahi kaay aap sahii haain yaa 1973 mein JI top brass on the right path. One of u should be wrong . Isn't ?
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