shimatoree
Member
If you look at the last 10,000 years of human history - a study of all societies everywhere clearly shows that women have been classified as something less than men and rules have been established since times immemorial which have sanctified those rules and regulations.
I would like comments on this topic.
zia m
Member
You are right.Women have been treated less than humans since the dawn of civilization.Even in societies that worshiped godesses treatment of women at the hands of men has been deplorable.
There could be numerous reasons for this behaviour.I will try to highlight a few of them.
1.Cultural Stereotypes:Men traditionally have been considered the bread winner.Women are viewed as caring and nurturing making them more suitable for domestic duties.This is fast changing in developing countries resulting in equal rights for women.
2.Biological and Physical:Due to hormonal differences men are more aggressive.They use this to dominate the opposite sex.
3.Religion plays an important role in a society most of us like to ignore this fact for obvious reasons.This results in discrimination against women in more religious societies.
During all ages and eras women have been never thought of as equal to man, and if they have, by some beliefs than it is found in books and laws only and never fully implemented.
Women are opposite but equal to men is a universal truth.
As they are grossly misunderstood this might explain a bit:
THE GREATNESS OF WOMAN
When a man was sitting beside a sleeping woman after working late one day
A little boy came by and said: “Why spend so much time beside her ?”
And the man answered:
“Son, Have you seen all she is capable of ?"
“ She functions on all kinds of food, she is able to embrace several kids at the same time, gives a hug that can heal anything from a bruised knee to a broken heart and she does all this with only two hands”.
The little boy was impressed.
“Just two hands....impossible!“
And this is a normal woman?!
“Too much work for one day.... “.
“Indeed”, said the man. “That is why she is my favorite”.
“She cures herself when sick and she can work 18 hours a day”.
The little boy came nearer and touched the woman.
“But she is so soft”
“She is soft", said the man, “But she is also so strong. You can’t imagine what she can endure and overcome.“
“Can she think?" the little boy asked.
The man answered:
“Not only can she think, she can reason and negotiate."
The little boy touched the woman’s cheek....
“It seems she is leaking! You have put too many burdens on her.”
“She is not leaking....it’s a tear” the man corrected the little man.
“What’s it for?" asked the little boy.
And the man said:
“Tears are her way of expressing grief, her doubts, her love, her loneliness, her suffering and her pride.”
This made a big impression on the little boy; “Hey, you are lucky.
You know everything. The woman is indeed marvellous!"
Indeed she is!
Woman has strengths that amazes man. She can handle trouble and carry heavy burdens.
She holds happiness, love and opinions.
She smiles when feeling like screaming.
She sings when she feels like crying, crys when she is happy and laughs when she is afraid.
She fights for what she belives in.
Stand up against injustice.
She doesn’t take “no” for an answer, when she can see a better solution. She gives herself so her family can thrive. She takes her friend to the doctor if she is afraid.
Her love is unconditional.
She cries when her kids are victorious. She is happy when her friends do well.
She is glad when she hears of a birth or a wedding.
Her heart is broken when a next of kin or friend dies.
But she finds the strength to get on with life.
She knows that a kiss and a hug can heal a broken heart.
There is only one thing wrong with her
She forgets what she is worth...
http://vasukimahal.blogspot.com
Mirza Sahib:
your post has not only made my day, but I will print it and keep it with me whenever 'i forget'.... thank you very much.
Alhamdulillah for such mercies!!
@Oriel
Thanks. It is not only 'she' forgets but we 'men' keep on ignoring this as well.
raheb
Member
Woman is always a BETTER human being than a man in every sense.
raheb
our is men society , very cruel and prejudice to women.
Musician
Member
Let me remind all men that:
"hamara apna wajood aurat ka marhoon-e-minnat hai"
Sahnaz
Member
@Semirza
Thnx fr sharing such a beautiful quote. and moreover thnx fr sharing the link. i visited the site and found it very inspirational.
thnx again
Thanks Sahnaz. Some more for us to ponder!
Are women human
If women were human:
-would they be a cash crop shipped from Thailand in containers into New York's brothels?
-Would they have their genitals sliced out to purify them (of what?) and to bid and define our cultures?
-Would they be used as breeders, made to work without pay their whole lives, burned when their dowry money wasn't enough or when men tired of them?
-Starved as widows when their husbands died if they survived his funeral pyre.
-Forced to sell themselves sexually because men won't value them for anything else?
-Would they be sold into marriage to priests to atone for their family's sins or to improve their family's earthly prospects?
-Would they be sexually and reproductively enslaved?
-Would they, when allowed to work for pay, be made to work at the most menial jobs and exploited at barely starvation level?
-Would they be trafficked for sexual use and entertainment worldwide in whatever form current technology makes possible?
-Would they be kept from learning to read and write?
If women were human:
Would they have little to no voice in public deliberations and in government?
-Would they be hidden behind veils and imprisoned in houses and stoned and shot for refusing?
-Would they be beaten nearly to death, and to death, by men with whom they are close? ---Would they be sexually molested in their families?
-Would they be raped in genocides to terrorize and destroy our ethnic communities, and raped again in that undeclared war that goes on every day in every country in the world in what is called peacetime?
-If women were human, would their violation be enjoyed by their violators? And, if they were human, when these things happened, would virtually nothing be done about it?
It takes a lot of imagination -- and a determinedly blinkered focus on exceptions at the privileged margins -- to envision a real woman in the Universal Declaration's majestic guarantees of what 'everyone is entitled to'. After so many years, just what part of 'everyone' doesn't mean THEM?
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/mackinnon/mackin1.html
Sahnaz
Member
@Semirza
U scared me near to death...its all true but dnt u think time has changed. now women r raising their voices. they r ruling now and sm of them r more powerful thn their male counterparts. if u go to 100 most influential person of world u will many women there.
well im nt tht much pessimist abt women conditions. well if women r facing these problems its nt only bcz of men but women are also responsible fr this.
e.g. Dowry...dnt u think Mother-in -Law is more responsible as compared to husband.
Prositution:- u cant blame only to men fr tht. now days many high society girls doinn fr extra bucks and sm just fr their sexsual needs.
but im agree with u where u raised sm points abt stoning to death(hv u seen movies 'Stoning of Soraya M'...if nt thn c it..its must watch movie).
yeah im also against veils...i dnt think veil protect women frm men..if a man want to rape a woman he dsnt care if she is in veil or nt...
well but yr post is very touching and disturbing too but its reality.
thnx
Shock
Members
Most of the people talking anout women here are men. I don't why are we giving them so much importance. In a country where men are slaves to a particlar mindset, what do you expect from women.
Sahnaz
Member
@shock
well shock not all r men..oriel n myslef represnt women in a very respective manner.
well u r talking abt particular type of mindset...whom would u like to blame fr?? to our cultur, education or religion?? bcz only these factors plays a major role to make a mind slave.
thnx
@shock:
it matters not who is saying it, just to have someone saying it is enough.
you will have to post further on what you mean as i think it is imperative we talk upon the poor state of our women everywhere. if there is a problem... deal with it... as i see women badly effected the most in 'normal' life, conflict situations, east and west alike.... i would rather work on improving women's lot.... why? because i am one, my mothers and sisters are suffering and i think i can do something about that.
some will say, "oh how boring... change the record.... we've heard this whining all before".
but i say, conditions for women in too great a percentage, are still the same in S.E.Asia as they were 100yrs ago, i.e conditions are diabolical for far too many within Pak, Afghanistan, India and Bangladesh to name just 4 'neighbours'.
i also highly appreciate semirza's posts on this particular thread. the 1st was inspiring, the second was horrific but true. the fact that humiliation of women has become part and parcel of so-called muslim societies is an indication to our people's adherence/following of deen.
aside to this i would say my heart would appreciate a non-muslim advocating basic human rights for females and would judge such a non-muslim as being closer to the spirit of Islam than any bearded, outwardly muslim male that prescribes the chaining of women to the walls of the home!
Musician
Member
@sahnaz
As I said ealier if a man does not recognise that he eixists because of a woman then he is not man enough.
Trouble with men is that they will love admire and do anthing for their mother (a woman who nurtured,protect and fed them in her womb for at least 8 months), they will love and adore their sisters but when the woman becomes their wife everything changes. They think that they own the woman and they still remain blinded to fact that their wife has become a mother now and should be loved, protected and respected in the same manner as their own mother.
Mindset, what mindset and whose mindset?
@Shock
I am quite SHOCKED to know this from you. Well, in this case where women are not considered human due to men being slaves to a particular mind set, a SHOCK treatment is recommended as a corrective remedy/cure!
Things are getting better gradually and slowly but still there are certain pockets in South East Asia, where women are still under house arrest, due to social, cultural and traditional honor phobia.
Women brought up under a prolonged psychology of fear and submission, are prone to lack required qualities to take initiatives in practical life.
Biological status of women should not be a hindrance to a respectable social status of women in a civilized culture.
I agree with Mirza Saheb that those men, who do not consider women as human, but slaves to a particular mind set, do need at least a SHOCK treatment as a corrective remedy/cure!
shimatoree
Member
adnak
"those men, who do not consider women as human, but slaves to a particular mind set, do need at least a SHOCK treatment as a corrective remedy/cure!"
Please do have a look at the real story of such a man
in " DIVORCE BY MAIL "
shimatoree
Member
semirza
your very profound posts have left me speechless and I do not have words to express my gratitude to you.
I am very proud to know that human beings like you still exist and you have restored whatever little faith I had left in the human race.
@shimatoree
Thanks, and to you too for bringing up a topic to be discussed and dealt with that has been and is among us as a social evil, since ages.
'Disrespect to a woman is being disrespectful towards humanity itself-a total denial of being human' is what I say and believe.
zia m
Member
Examples of gender inequality.
http://listverse.com/2008/11/20/10-extreme-examples-of-gender-inequality/
@Semirza ,
u made my day ...i read your posts again and again .
in general on topic ...
i wanna say that we are definitely living in a male dominated society ...from parents to uncles to teachers to bosses ...
everyone takes the female differently as he takes male ..
unfortunately....
my mom who had no brother and no son...
as brave woman as she was ,she lives up her whole life without being complaining not to have a male child .
and she raised us all as confident and literate as she can ...but at the end ...when she died in this january ...
the Moulana sahib was asking for a MALE member ,who can go inside the grave first ,to be a Mahram(like brother or son)
and then my elder sister's little kids did that ...
so she died but world told her ,while leaving ,that she need a male to put her body into the grave ...
it was so disturbing for me ...
jaypk
Member
@all...islam has given separate positions to both male and female...neither is superior to other whn it comes to desginated works..Holy Prophet(PBUh) has told us that to treat them well and be kind to them..there are various surah in quran which clearly guides us about thr place and thr role in our lives....but unfortunately our society is male dominant fr sure..we have to accept this...even in the west which is the leader in gender equalities...women are some how used and tormented...we muslims are not anyway lagging in taking the opportunity alhouthg we could have set the example but we drifted..again i blame Mullahs fr tht....like saudia arab and dubai are both opposite whn it comes to women...so it shows the contradiction and gives the opportunity to west to laugh at our religion..had all of us followed the guidance by the book and hadees this shouldnt have happened.....but we shud give to respect to the fairer sex by all means...and in all aspects...dnt call me a sexist but i have never seen a wrestling or a boxing or a tug of war match between ladies and gents.....hence...what women are capable of ..men are not.....and what men can do...women are not...both should be treated equally and fairly..!!
on a note related to pkpolitics....they have got the speaker in parliament...they are nearly 21% of the parliament as compared to rest of Asia whr its hardly touching 18% and even global average is around 19%..which iis a healthy sign... so i think all in all its getting all good....but it will take some time..!!
@above
Let us come back to the original question 'Are Women Human'?
All societies, religious or else, have defined set guidelines regarding the status of women. Sadly the truth lies not within the rules and guidelines laid down so that there are no gender based inequalities but in the form of blatant denial of the same, practically. Men rarely enforce these very rules and this is happening among societies from all over the globe. Sheer hypocrisy!
jaypk
Member
@mirza...as i stated in my post i guess...and admitted it..tht this is the sad and bitter truth and we cant run away frm this.....but beating the bush will never give any solutions..by just coming on forums and admitting it and issue a concerning note tht ..tsk tsk..it will never get better kind approach...will def never help....hence i tried to give the lighter side of it by quoting the example...tht things are getting better....since good things happen to those who wait.....!
Are women HUMAN?
some ppl really thinks so in our society ...
but they are very few ...unfortunately .
our culture ,brought up & training wont allow males to think beyond male chauvinism...
zingaro
Member
women are superior than men as Prophet (PBUH) said:
1- "Jannah is under the feet of mother"
2- " Your mother has right on you, he said it three times, and only on fourth he said your father".
3- "If a person has two daughters and he looked after them well, he will be with me in Jannah"
There is so much which our beloved Prophet (PBUH) said about the honor of a women....
jaypk
Member
http://www.funzug.com/index.php/funzug-mails/-acid-terrorism-against-women-in-pakistan.html
i wish that i would be given the oppotunity to cut and scar those men who did this...!!
msohail83
Member
That's heartwrenching stuff Jay. SAD
those ,who thinks that women are other than human .
should be electrocute .
jaypk
Member
and these are only the reported cases...women who think tht they will survive media and the society after tht..only they dare...think abt those who dont dare...i think they are more..
i wonder and think sometimes tht since our jazbaati qaum follows religion at a brisk pace whn our religious leaders raise thr voice against any specific issue...i cant remember thay have ever raised thr voices against this issue...if they want to...they can call this a JIHAAD as well...or a fatwa against anyone doing this.....if any of our enlightened member know about this plz let me know.......its just a matter of priority i guess.!!
we may call this a solution..!!
toamin
member
Are women HUMAN?
Depends on view point of society.
Islam gave highest status to women through:
a) Allowed to give consent via bayah
b) Ummahatu-Mo'mineen
c) Status of mother
d) Status of wife
e) Status of daughter
f) Independence to decide for their business or wealth
...
...
But the discussion of equating 'apples' with 'oranges' is technically flawed because each has distinct role and attributes to play which leads to harmony in society.
jaypk
Member
khan sahab welcome back...do you mind shedding sum light the role of our religious personnel in highlighting this issue in our society...?
besides you still remind of a thread whr you didnt admit tht you were wrong...anyways..:)
toamin
member
If you mean by "role of our religious personnel" Moulana Fazul-ur-Rahman & Co then their role is to strengthen hands of Zardari in return for material depending on deal to deal basis.
jaypk
Member
@khan ..deal to deal basis..right said...thts why i said....its a matter of priority.....!!
...may be one day our so called ulemas and maulvi hazrat might stand up and do jihaad against this evil of gender attrocity in pakistan..!! i beleive we blindly follow our mullahs on many occassions..so if they take the honour and pride in highlighting this issue they might get some popularity as well...since topics like US and zionist lobbies are diminishing with the time...this might not only help them but also help the casue and raise awareness in the common ppl...!!
Sahnaz
Member
CAIRO: The sexual harassment of women in the streets, schools and work places of the Arab World is driving them to cover up and confine themselves to their homes, said activists at the first-ever regional conference addressing the once taboo topic.
Activists from 17 countries across the region met in Cairo for a two-day conference ending Monday and concluded that harassment was unchecked across the region because laws don't punish it, women don't report it and the authorities ignore it.
The harassment, including groping and verbal abuse, appears to be designed to drive women out of public spaces and seems to happen regardless of what they are wearing, they said.
Amal Madbouli, who wears the conservative face veil or niqab, told The Associated Press that despite her dress, she is harassed and described how a man came after her in the streets of her neighborhood.
'He hissed at me and kept asking me if I wanted to go with him to a quieter area, and to give him my phone number,' said Madbouli, a mother of two. 'This is a national security issue. I am a mother, and I want to be reassured when my daughters go out on the streets.'
Statistics on harassment in the region have until recently been nonexistent, but a series of studies presented at the conference hinted at the widespread nature of the problem.
As many as 90 per cent of Yemeni women say they have been harassed, while in Egypt, out of a sample of 1,000, 83 percent reported being verbally or physically abused.
A study in Lebanon reported that more than 30 percent of women said they had been harassed there.
'We are facing a phenomena that is limiting women's right to move ... and is threatening women's participation in all walks of life,' said Nehad Abul Komsan, an Egyptian activist who organized the event with funding from the UN and the Swedish development agency.
Open discussion of the harassment issue first emerged in Egypt three years ago, after blogs gave broad publicity to amateur videos showing men assaulting women in downtown Cairo during a major Muslim holiday.
The public outcry sparked an unprecedented public acknowledgment of the problem and drove the Egyptian government to consider two draft bills addressing sexual harassment.
Sexual harassment, including verbal and physical assault, has been specifically criminalized in only half a dozen Arab countries. Most of the 22 Arab states only outlaw overtly violent acts like rape, according to a study by Abul Komsan.
Participants at the conference said men are threatened by an increasingly active female labor force, with conservatives laying the blame for harassment on women's dress and behavior.
In Syria, men from traditional homes go shopping in the market place instead of female family members to spare them harassment, said Sherifa Zuhur, a Lebanese-American academic at the conference.
Abul Komsan described how one of the victims of harassment she interviewed told her she had taken on the full-face veil to stave off the hassle.
'She told me 'I have put on the niqab. By God, what more can I do so they leave me alone,'' she said, quoting the woman.
Some even said they were reconsidering going to work or school because of the constant harassment in the streets and on public transpiration.
But even in Yemen, where nearly all women are covered from head to toe, activist Amal Basha said 90 per cent of women in a published study she conducted reported harassment, specifically pinching.
'The religious leaders are always blaming the women, making them live in a constant state of fear because out there, someone is following them,' she said.
If a harassment case is reported in Yemen, Basha added, traditional leaders interfere to cover it up, remove the evidence or terrorize the victim.
In Saudi Arabia, another country where women cover themselves completely and are nearly totally segregated from men in public life, women report harassment as well, according to Saudi activist Majid al-Eissa.
His organization, the National Family Safety Program, has been helping draft a law criminalizing violence against women in the conservative kingdom, where flirting can often cross the line into outright assault. Discussion of the law begins Tuesday.
'It will take time especially in this part of the world to absorb the gender mixture and the role each gender can play in society,'' he said. ''We are coping with changes (of modern life), except in our minds.'
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/03-harassment-across-arab-world-drives-women-inside-ss-01
This problem has nothing to do with Islam, this could be only related with animal desires of human body. Western world claims to be the women right champions but even now in these days women is subjugated in the west and is not having the rights which she deserves.
There is no value of 70 or 80 years in the history of nations and just 70/80 years ago women was not having even right to vote in west while islam gave this right 14 hundred years ago. So the point is, you could not accuse religion for subjugation of women, some where its champion of religion and somewhere its champion of equal rights which are subjugating women.
Allah (swt) gave more physical strength to males so they could bear the hardship and HE gave more emotional strength, sensitivity to women so she could become the heart of family system (which west is loosing with every day). But since its in the nature of our animal body that might is right so this was the only reason for keeping women deprived of what she deserved and this has been done in every society.
jaypk
Member
@letsdoit...This problem has nothing to do with Islam, this could be only related with animal desires of human body......................islam has told us to suppress our desires specially the unlawful desires which leads to more sins....islam has told us to treat with respect our ladies...islam has told us to give them thr due rights....whd are you talkin abt..!!
there are more rapes and gender related tortures in the west then any other place....women has been used more as a figure of pleasure and temporary use in the west more thn anywhere in the world....but does tht makes the east think poistive abt it.......but the point is when we as muslims or paksitanis put religion first in all other matters where we need to or where we want to thn why nt the same ppl speak on this issue with the same force...!!
jaypk
You completely misunderstood my post. My point was why to relate religion with social problems. We are taking bribe, should we blame religion for that. We are We are corrupt, should we blame religion for that. Even for going on Hajj we are giving and taking bribe, how come islam is responsible for all that. Similarly the issue of women rights is more connected to our social problems it has no connection with the religion and its teachings.
jaypk
Member
letsdoit....may be i didnt get your tone since you said islam has nuthin to do with this....sorry abt tht..!!
but still all the above problems which you have discussed...dnt you think..tht if we stick to religion adn the basics of our religion...these issued would be solved...since its nt islam which has to be blamed directly...but implementation of islam and being muslims ourselves and not acting upon the basic concepts and teachings lead to that...!!
we wouldnt and we dont blame religion....but we can blame those ppl who are so called qualified as religious teachers to teach and preach the basics again and again so that whenever and wherever we would be doing anything wrong the fear of Allah ignites among us..!!
@letsdoit...Similarly the issue of women rights is more connected to our social problems it has no connection with the religion and its teachings.
and fr our social problems we have all sort of guidance available in the religion...its just a matter of who wants to read it and who even after reading it never implements it..!!
my dear jaypk
sorry it was not you, it was me who did not got your point. Now coming to the question you raised.
If only religious teachings were enough to ensure getting rid of all social problems then why there are lot of punishments and system of governance is given by islam. Social problems could only be rectified once you will implement islam. Religion could only solve your problems when you will implement religion.
jaypk
Member
exactly thts whd i m trying to say here...tht we only talk abt implementing religion whn and whr its our need...but our domestic scenario and issues need to be rectified first...whn it comes to matters like our jazbaat which gets majrooh very easily....we implement religion and we follow religious preachers blindly..if its against US we follow the rallies..if its against any specific firqa we follow our religious leaders and attempt to kill them.....and do whdeva they say....but our very basic foundation of an islamic country is in distress..the very basics of the teachings are never implemented...so it is the duty of our religious leaders to raise thr voice in this matter...and it ll help the cause!
...this is the level of our mentalities tht one of our member i dont want to name him said tht once we win our wars against the US we will all get roti kapra and makan automatically......!!
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