Sharif Aadmi
Member
http://jang.com.pk/jang/dec2011-daily/21-12-2011/u90854.htm
Very important response by federation. If drilled down propery , its going to have very long term consequences.
In my oponion , it represents the true state of affairs.
By submitting this response , civlian govt has distanced itself from misdeeds of BAHDUR FAUJ whether it was in Kashmir , Balochoistan or Afghanistan or related to presense of sheikh in abbottabad :)
Also NS's stance on Kargil is verified. Very interesting.
blacksheep
Member
بات تو سچ ہے۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ پَر بات ہے رُسوائی کی۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔
;-) :-) ;-)
۔
۔
جب تک فوج کے آنے پر مٹھائیاں بٹتی رہے گی۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ صورتحال کچھ ایسی ہی رہے گی۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔
bsobaid
Member
Good move by government and based on reality.
Funny thing is that media and opposition parties will still blame government and call it to resign to further establishment,s agenda.
Sharif Aadmi
Member
well said bsobaid.
We the BLOODY CIVILIANS need to unite and take this monsster head on.
expakistani
Member
politicians cant challenge "Real powerful" when they are in trouble.
How come Zardari & Co didnt bring amendments in constitution 2 yrs back or NS took action when he was all powerful PM. Why the scream when things get on their own face
Sharif Aadmi
Member
expakistani,
Definately , politicians are also responsible for this scenario.
But have you observered overall mindset of masses.
How many of us that DHA is form of corruption --an instituionalized corruption ?
HOw many of us think that UNIFORMED ANGELS should be reporting to defence minster , a civilian ,whether he is ahmad mukhar, ghous ali shah or kaala choor ?
Bahi meeray , over the 65 years we have brainwased the masses with so-called successes of UNIFORMOED ANGELS and so-called failures of BLOODY CIVILIANS that no body is readdy to hear against them.
We need to educate our masses and put our wieght behind the civlian setup so that this monster can be tackled.
jabalultariq
Member
SA - ok so I need to fight you on this front as well :-)
In my opinion , our Army is far more superior administratively and have fare superior strategic planning skills then the civilian government of all levels in Pakistan which is why
a) Army has no respect for civilian government
b) Civilian government has no wherewithal to grapple the army
NS tried to take the bull from the horns BUT failed miserably.
Bhutto wanted to create a National Guards (FSF) , failed miserably
Its not about civilian unity.....its about being smarter and superior than our Army
Training , planning and discipline of Our Army vs. Civilian leaders / bureaucracy has no comparison , hence an Army which cannot be controlled by these nincommpoop civilian
Sharif Aadmi
Member
JT,
U want to fight me , thats your choice. I m not here to fight any body.
If u spend 80% of your income on one and 20% on rest, then dept getting 80% would be more prominnet any ways.
About failure of Ns or Bhutto, yes, standing in front of guns is not easy. Civlians don't have gun thats why they lost and also civlians need unity among their ranks.
About superiorty of BAHDUR FAUHJ that was best displayed on 16 Dec ,1971 and then again 2nd May 2011. Hope u understand :)
jabalultariq
Member
fight is a figure of speech I mean no harm , not even mental harm
Again , I am not saying here "smarter and superior " in military prowess.........I mean in simple admin tasks
to the extent that in Mushy's days and Infantry Lt Col was put in charge of explainng the "electricity" problem in a TV show , Wapda walay mar gayay kiya ??
expakistani
Member
Ok so bhai give me some ways to fix this mess.... well non of the civil government have fix?
Make soldiers take oath to be loyal to President of Pakistan rather then Ch of Army staff would that help?
Would it help if Next elected assembly pass very first Bill to bring Army and ISI under Def ministry?
Good politicians act when time is right...not when Army is kicking on the door
Sharif Aadmi
Member
expakistani
There is only one solution in my oponion and thats disbanding the BAHDUR FAUJ and cutting its budget to minimal.
Second, we need to educate our masses about the harm that this BAHDUR FAUJ has inflicted so that they become aware of this monster.
Third, we need to come out of idea that we were bron to fight india or india is our enemy. This crap idealogy has enough toll on the masses and we can't afford it any more.
Sharif Aadmi
Member
JT
"Mushy's days and Infantry Lt Col was put in charge of explainng the "electricity" problem in a TV show , Wapda walay mar gayay kiya ??
"
Koi marr nahi giya tha . Everything was captured on gun point.
This army is blood sucker of 180 millions. They always want Paksitan as security state and tension with India, so they can justified this blood sucking.
This blood sucking made them so mad and powerful that they don't care for constitution of Pakistan and 180 millions peoples of Pakistan.
Sharif Aadmi
Member
Very True Syed.
bsobaid
Member
N.league is apparantly unhappy with establishment and ppp is also not happy.
This is the best opportunity for both ppp and n.league to close establishment,s chapter once and for all. Unfortunately both parties are not taking advantage of the situation.
I think, PPP and Noon league need urgently to negotiate for next election, care taker government, appointment of independent election commission and timetable for election in 2012.
Even more important beside above negotiations, both parties should make agreement to pass amendment from parliament to bring constitutional control over army, and impartiality, neutrality in judiciary.
jabalultariq
Member
Army has been used as a pawn for staus quo defenders , now its deeply imbedded and itself wants to maintain status quo....
by the way msyedh....if one goes by your wishes....putting nukes in these half a** political leaders control.....especially Zardari.....he will sell a couple of them to Iran or whoever bids highest.
Again, not defending the army but these idiots have NO CLUE NOR ANY INTEREST in how to run a country
jabalultariq@
It is not issue of just Zardari. If political leadership is not very competent. We must blame army for that because in last 64 years, this army never let them grow as democratic forces.
First, they disobeyed founder of Pakistan, Mohammud Ali Jinah and then almost every government.
In fact they have more blunders than civilian leadership. All wars 1948, 1965, 1971, 1999 kargel and other promiment events, military government and their leadership is responsible. They always lied about these wars.
They had humiliated defeats in these wars(except Pak air force in 1965) but they were forcing our children to study fake and bogus stories about their heroism.
One side they have proven, time after time, their extreme poor efficiency and ability as professional force, but on the other hand they always overreacted and overpowered these helpless civilian leadership every time with different excuses.
ali-pk
Member
@Sharif Aadmi
yey kaisi Sharaft hai - since when 80% goes to Army???
ali-pk
Member
and this is good for Pakistan that these rotten politicians and their rotten "jamhuriyat" has no control over Army-
ali-pk
Member
@msyedh
looks like our brother is too much scared of wars -lol .
i think all the Indian lovers including our rotten politicians should be packed and booked to mother India .
Lets be clear here - India was , is and will always be our enemy .
Sharif Aadmi
Member
jabalultariq
Nukes were already sold by BAHDUR FAUJ. Do u think that AQ Khan was responsible for which he was held responsible ?
And also let me remind u of Mirza Aslam Beg who wanted (and then may have actrually ) to sell to iran .
Ali-Pk,
If u study the pattern of pakistani budget from 70's and onwards u will understand. Right now , 35% directly goes to defence budget and that doesn't include pensions which during mush era have been shifted to civlian head. Then around 38% goes to debt servicing. We r dooing debt servicing for whta ? For takns we purchesed in 70s or f-16 we purchased in 80s or for submarines in 90s. So ,isn't defence expnese ?
Sharif Aadmi
Member
ali-pk
India naay islamabad fateh kiya tha ? yaa aap ki dhooti churrai thi ?
Why it was , is and will be enemy ?
ali-pk@
Me and my family is living on this land more than 1000 years. so, There is no question to go India or anywhere else.
Some peoples and institutions, including our forces will never grow. Because these wars, security status and this Indian enmity is their future.
Without these things, they can not justify to suck blood of our poor Pakistani peoples. These generals and other officers can not enjoy extra luxury living and can't eat 80% budget of this poor Pakistan.
ali-pk
Member
@ sharif Aadmi & msyedh
i don't understand the mantra of 80% when we all know that around 35% goes to debt servicing -- This **** government has broken all the record of taking interest based loans -
is it the Army who tells them to take loans - the whole Pakistani nation knows where this money goes.
Who stops the rotten jamhuri parties to increase industrial bases in Pakistan thereby providing job opportunities - WHo stops them to start development projects .
Ask your rotten jamhuriyat pasands to put an end to non-development expenditures .
i say , Pakistan must go for 200+ fighter jets and other equipments . Nations without strong Army gets humiliated/attacked by big powers.
I am in no way a die hard fan of Pak army but i will always prefer them over galay saray Politicians.
Sharif Aadmi
Member
ali-pk
Look at the budget and then speak. If all the taxes collected goes to debt servicing of past loans and defence, what any government will do ?
'
s it the Army who tells them to take loans - the whole Pakistani nation knows where this money goes.
"
Yes its to feed these BAHDURs we took loans during 70,80 and 90 and which we r paying back.
'
Who stops the rotten jamhuri parties to increase industrial bases in Pakistan thereby providing job opportunities - WHo stops them to start development projects .
'
Its again army which distubrbs the system directly or indirectly and de-stablizes the democratic govts. During last 50 years , around 33 years were eaten by directy army rule so why to blame democracy ? 11 of ayub , 11 of zia , 3 of yahya and 9 of mush.
So , how come u hold politicans responsible for failure of encomony ?
ali-pk
Member
What the government can do is to stop it's Ayashis - and if the government can't do anything than it should pack up and go to europe/america/australia .
See this is so called "democracy" might be a sacred cow for you . i just don't care , like all Pakistanis - i want results even if it comes from Chacha Khairu .
Ok tell me what this government has done for the last 4 years -- now don't tell me that it was all messed up . this government has got all the time in the world to perform.
The legitimacy of this rotten setup is reflected from the fact that only 15-20% people vote for this smelly jamhuriyat.
These loans are needed because 35% budget go for past loan payments, which were taken in past, for military equipment. and rest,again, main part of budget go to military. There is no more money for poor Pakistanies and institutions, after all these payments and military budget. Government need even more loans to run everyday business. Because this army is sucking our blood.
No doubt, this government is corrupt too, like other past governments. But military corruption is 100 times more than civil corruption. you can see many billionaires children of these past and present generals. But these general don't want scrutiny for army budget and accountability for their mega corruptions.
ali-pk
Member
@msyedh
i mean this is 2011 , even a person from chak# 245 gaf bay pindi pattian now knows the reality of these so called "loans" - lets talk something else like it's 45 degrees temperature today in Lahore.
No we don't need any soodi loans, i don't buy this moaning of the government "lut gay mar gaey barbad ho gaey" -- and statistics are always there to fool people.
the only way to control the Army is through a credible government which delivers --- Just look at Turkey!
ali-pk
Member
@msyedh
you say that our country needs loan to operate - this is really funny , just look at the video of our jamhuri Prime minister going in the carvan of 100+ cars to meet the most rotten baboon we have ever seen i.e his holiness Zardari gee.
Yeah we need loans --- :rofl:
Sharif Aadmi
Member
Statistics are always to fool people.
Fine , ook then whats the argument which u want ? Just go and blame Civlians.
6/7 civilian govt with half powers got 17 years which u r ready to quesiton. Why don't u tell some success stories of BAHDUR FAUJ eras? like dismmeberment of Pakistan , flood of herioin , AK 47 , suicide attacks etc ?
ali-pk
Member
@Sharif Aadmi
"idhar hum udhar tum" baba'e Jamhuriyat Zulfiqar Bhutto -
and what's wrong with AK-47 , dar lagta hai kya ????
i am not here to defend the Army , find someone else to tell their success stories.
but i have no doubts that our jamhuriyat pasand politicians are sold out traitors .
Sharif Aadmi
Member
if nothing wrong with Ak-47 then whats wrong at all ?
"
ut i have no doubts that our jamhuriyat pasand politicians are sold out traitors .
"
More than Mush , Zia ,Yahya or Kiyani ?
ali-pk
Member
@Sharif Aadmi
Why don't you tell that Pakistan has suffered a loss of 70-80 billion dollars by kissing American butt. This is the reason your jamhuri government needs loan to operate . Jab Amreeka kay talway chato gay toa yahi ho gaa "hoar chupo ganderian"
Sharif Aadmi
Member
Ali-pk
Who sided with US ? It was decision of masses of Pakistan or their representatve or some UNIFORMED ANGEL or group of UNIFORMED ANGELS?
Apart even prior to 2001 , what was tax colleciton and how much was budget deficit. Nothing much changed .
karim
Member
Defence spending of Pakistan was just 3.2% of the whole of GDP last year and the major contributing factor was this on going war of terror operations.
shafiq12
member
karim
Are you ex army cop or currently serving in army
karim
Member
No I am not but does it matter?
ali-pk
Member
Sharif Sahab!
get out of America's war on terror and feel the difference -
will you deny that all the jamhuriyat pasands are equally responsible along with musharraf?
lets do a reality check-
who used to call Ayyub daddy -- Zulfiqar Butto
Who's son was Nawaz Sharif -- ZIa
Who supported Musharraf -- Jmahuri babey
it's your jamhuriyat pasands who welcome and work with bahadur fauj .
ali-pk
Member
tax collection - budget deficit- trade policy - gdp ratio and all the other blah blah and blah are just to fool masses . **** banatey hain hameyn aur hum ba'khushi bun jatey hain .
shafiq12
member
No I am not but does it matter?
Then what makes you favor criminals / looters /blood sucking monsters -- They have been feeding themselves on blood of poor since creation of Pakistan. Poor JCO who can't resist against their orders... You would understand my word if you had injured in Nato attack as the poor 26 soldiers had. Why are you not sincere to Pakistan?
karim
Member
Then what makes you favor criminals / looters /blood sucking monsters
And exactly what makes you become a namak haram and cut the same tree branch that you sit on?
You would understand my word if you had injured in Nato attack as the poor 26 soldiers had. Why are you not sincere to Pakistan?
Stop shedding your crocodile tears. If you have little sympathy with those fallen soldiers then go hang that son of a b.i.t.c.h Musharraf who brought this calamity upon us.
shafiq12
member
And exactly what makes you become a namak haram and cut the same tree branch that you sit on?
I never eat salt of army.... I never gained any benefit of army in my past. Your beloved army isn't protecting me. my God is enough for my protection. You army can't protect their beloved 26 soldiers. How could they protect me
Stop shedding your crocodile tears. If you have little sympathy with those fallen soldiers then go hang that son of a b.i.t.c.h Musharraf who brought this calamity upon us.
Stop abusing a sign who was creation/corruption of your beloved institution. Even his appointment as general was full of corruption.
junaid
Member
oblivion
totally hear you on that
karim
Member
I never eat salt of army.... I never gained any benefit of army in my past. Your beloved army isn't protecting me. my God is enough for my protection. You army can't protect their beloved 26 soldiers. How could they protect me
Pakistan will cease to exist without an army who could defend it from external aggression and internal intrigues of namak harams.
Those who argue they love Pakistan but hate its army are the double agents of the enemy. They are neither with Pakistan nor with its people or its army.
shafiq12
member
karim
It was army and its generals who became threat to existence of Pakistan in 1971... and wise always learn messages of history and also history repeats itself... We don't want history to repeat it on the other hand you are making history to repeat itself
=========================================================
junaid
;)
Hussain Farooqui
Member
Army's involvement was earnestly invited by the politicians in the martial laws of Ayub and Zia. The political parties of PNA in 1977 teased the army for more than 5 months to impose martial law. Zia's martial law was warmly welcomed by the 9 parties of PNA. Musharaff's coup was followed by intolerably unwise decisions of Shariff brothers. The unwise decisions of Shariff brothers were opposed by their own father.
Hussain Farooqui
Member
Oblivion
The performance of the army has been poor in all three wars. The victory of Kargil was converted into a defeat by incompetent Nawaz Shariff.
karim
Member
It was army and its generals who became threat to existence of Pakistan in 1971...
Stop reading indian inspired history. First learn the facts from both sides and then come to a conclusion. You guys have been spoon fed on indian propoganda so much that you consider it as a universal truth.
and wise always learn messages of history and also history repeat itself... We don't want history to repeat it on the other hand you are making history to repeat itself
What kind of history you want to repeat? What are your aspirations? Could you describe your ambitions little bit more?
Hussain Farooqui
Member
karim bhai
I appreciate your love for the army. No doubt, our army is our zoor e bazu. There must be no condemnation of our zoor e bazu. The soldiers are our own brethren. Healthy critical analysis are required to be done for fathoming the reasons which led to our failures in the wars of 1948, 1965 and then in 1971. We need to make sure that our zoor e bazu is functioning efficiently.
Neither unhealthy condemnation is good nor undue appreciation is good.
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