PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Banks...Why do we need them?....

(142 posts)
  1. The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. -- Thomas Jefferson.

    Banks are the biggest fraud humans committed against their fellow humans. Are we not being cheated out through the use of a printed piece of paper that holds no value or guarantee like in the times of Dinar and Dirham! Yesterday we kept our valuables, gold etc in safes kept in our homes with a fear of dacoits in our hearts. Now when we trust a communal safe called a bank, all of us are being looted by these bankers.

    “Whomsoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate.” – President James Garfield 1881.

    Why should we have banks? Or should we have banks at all?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 16:51 #
  2. SufiSoul
    Member

    The most safe method to keep your wealth is to convert it into GOLD and keep it any where safe.
    The existing capitalist system is too vulnerable for every one.The fact is that its bases are too weak.
    An example may be that a rumour can cause a major downfall in the stock market.
    Dual Fraudulent nature of Money.
    For example if i pay 100 to some one,that person will save it in his bank.Bank will lend that 100 to any one else,HE will again buy some one and pays,THIS person will save it in his bank,Bank will lend this money to any one else.This is the fraudulent/dual nature of a note.Repeating this system again and again will give rise to inflation and so forth....
    This system takes toomuch to develop but need just a little time to collapse.
    The westren countries are facing the same these days as a multiplying effect to their economies.They will never stable and will collapse due to their debts...

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:06 #
  3. gv
    Member

    yep abolish all banks

    Stick your money in socks and shove it under your mattresses that is the future economy!!! and then you won't have any moral issues either...

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:08 #
  4. SufiSoul
    Member

    What kind of post this is from you...

    When people will change their habits organisations to keep your GOLD under ur own custody will establish itself..Where illegal transfer of ur Gold will never be possible like NOTES.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:12 #
  5. gv
    Member

    how will you prevent the illegal transfer of gold????

    will you memorize the size and shape of your ingots???

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:13 #
  6. SufiSoul
    Member

    read again and again my post above pls.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:14 #
  7. gv
    Member

    do you know that most banks started out as gold warehouses?

    so fiat currency developed from ownership receipts of gold deposited which began to be traded as money

    so you're suggesting we go back a few thousand years in time and repeat the process just for kicks?

    and of course gold can be illegally transferred all you have to do is fiddle with the records...

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:17 #
  8. SufiSoul
    Member

    An individual safety is more related with keeping GOLD..
    Corporate safety is extremly related with NON INTEREST ECONOMY..
    NON INEREST ECONOMY will eleminate imaginary sale and Purchase which causes inflation.
    Your economy will show only the picture of ur real wealth.Today due to Interest earning Lust my deposited money is used to lend it to another person.This actually fraudulent nature of this economy......

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:25 #
  9. naseemkhanan
    Member

    The first central bank of any country to exercise fractional reserve lending was the Bank of England which was formed in 1694 and privately owned by deceptive and fraudulent shareholders who portrayed this money lender’s bank as the “people’s bank” it was not. Debt from the Bank of England to every generation since that time, represented by either government or monarchy, was secured against rising taxation of the citizens. The Bank of England model soon became the model for all nations and their banks. Putting the privately owned central bank in charge of a nation’s finances is like placing that nation’s finances under the control of the Mafia.

    In the early eighteenth century, fifty years after the doors of the Bank of England opened, there arose a family in Frankfurt, Germany, whose patriarchal head was Amshel Moses Bauer, a goldsmith and money lender. In 1743, using the insignia displayed above his place of “business” the Roman Eagle over a red shield, the German term for which is “Rothschild” he changed is name to Amshel Moses Rothschild. Rothschild had five sons, and upon their maturity, he sent each of them to the commercial centres of Europe. Amshel, the eldest, stayed in Frankfurt; Solomon went to Vienna; Nathan to London; Carl to Naples; and Jacob to Paris. And so the seeds were sown for the most powerful and wealthiest family in the history of our planet to reign over the next three centuries of human evolution with the single purpose of greed and power, no matter the cost. Generation after generation of the Rothschild’s and their appointed accomplices have secretly ruled over society, using their particular brand of “moneychanger’s usury” the fractional reserve lending technique.

    It was during the Civil War that the conspirators launched their first concrete efforts. Judah Benjamin, chief advisor to Jefferson Davis, was a Rothschild agent. Rothschild agents were planted in Abraham Lincoln’s (1809-1865) cabinet, and tried to sell him into a financial dealing with the House of Rothschild. But Lincoln saw through the scheme and bluntly rejected it, thereby incurring the undying enmity of the Rothschild’s. Investigation of Lincoln’s slaying revealed that his assassin was a member of a secret conspiratorial group. The name of the group was never revealed given the number of high-ranking government officials involved. The ending of the Civil War temporarily destroyed all chances for the Rothschild’s to lay hold of our money system as they had already acquired in Britain and other nations in Europe.

    Shortly after the Civil War, a young immigrant, Jacob H. Schiff, arrived in New York. This son of a Rabbi, born in one of the Rothschild’s houses in Frankfurt, Germany, was on a mission. His instructions were to buy into a banking house in the United States, which was to be the springboard for obtaining control of the U.S. money system. Schiff bought a partnership in a firm that called itself Kuhn and Loeb, a well-known private banking firm.

    To achieve his objective, which was to entrap the U.S. money system, Schiff had to get the full cooperation of the big banker elements. This was not an easy task for the small, bewhiskered man from the German ghettos. But Schiff threw a few Rothschild bones to them, the distribution in the United States of desirable European stock issues. Then Schiff discovered he had an even more potent weapon.

    It was in the decades following the Civil War that our industries began to burgeon. There were great railroads to build. The oil, mining, steel, and textile industries began to grow. All of this called for great financing, much of which had to come from abroad primarily from the House of Rothschild. Schiff became the patron saint of men like John D. Rockefeller, Edward R. Harriman, and Andrew Carnegie. He financed the Standard Oil Company for Rockefeller, a railroad empire for Harriman, and a steel empire for Carnegie. By the turn of the century, Schiff had tight control of the entire banking fraternity on Wall Street, which by then included the Lehman brothers, Goldman-Sachs, and other international banks headed by men hand-picked by the Rothschild’s. In short, Schiff, who was the "boss in New York, had control of the nation’s money powers.

    http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=153

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:28 #
  10. gv
    Member

    ok yes whatever you say sir- as i said earlier i shall now go and buy lots of socks and make sure i have a nice big mattress to store my gold/money/sea shells in

    thank you for the brilliant advice.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:29 #
  11. SufiSoul
    Member

    Actually i know this is not ur field.So you have to leave among circular arguments.
    EVEN a single professional arguments cannot be foundin ur post..

    GOOD BYE.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:31 #
  12. gv
    Member

    @sufi

    and you're a banker right?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:32 #
  13. SufiSoul
    Member

    BUT Finance is my field..........BAD for you,from me..lol

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:35 #
  14. gv
    Member

    well i've been working in investment banking and finance for the past 8 years and have a degree in economics so go figure mr finance and i think your theory is backward and outdated

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:38 #
  15. @gv
    "well i've been working in investment banking and finance for the past 8 years"

    Ah, so you are a beneficiary of this corrupt system :-P
    So sold any "sh!tty" deals lately?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:50 #
  16. gv
    Member

    @nota

    i don't recall you being part of this conversation - i really had no idea you were so petty... just because you and i have different views doesnt make us mortal enemies .. just so you know you are not obliged to put 'one up' on me where ever you can...

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 17:57 #
  17. gv
    Member

    @nota

    why dont' you defend the pro gold system argument above with logical facts and rational argument before laying into me for no reason...

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 18:00 #
  18. ali-pk
    Member

    Lets focus on the topic instead of going personal.

    the question is not why we need instead it should be 'Why they need bank'. The answer is simple, bank is one of the tools of the secular capitalistic democratic system and this tool has been given the task to enslave & exploit mankind through Riba' based loans.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 18:03 #
  19. @gv

    What? Since when did I need your permission to be part of a conversation? BTW: This has nothing to do with that other difference of opinion. Honestly I despise banks and bankers (and investment bankers especially) and it has nothing to do with you personally (I just found out you were one but I've held these views for many years). They are nothing but parasites. Tell me what do they produce? Anything besides misery? NO! So please don't try and twist this into a personal attack against you. It is NOT!!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 18:20 #
  20. nota, how come you didn't know what gv did for a living? I'm new on this blog. Yet I've known about it almost from the start from one of his interminable duels with HK im which he calmly admitted it. So do we expect him to run down his own bread and butter (or tuna, perhaps he likes it) activity?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 19:04 #
  21. achtung
    Member

    agar bank kee bajaey savings ko gold kee shakal mein rakhna ziada asaan aur faida mand hota tou subb log yehi kartey

    agar subb log yehi kartey tou bank khud bakhud khatam ho jatey

    laikin ham yeh dekhtay hein keh banking system batadreej phail raha hy, jiss kee aik hee wajah ho sakti hy keh yeh faidamand aur safe idara hy

    bank kissi ko majboor tou nahee kar sakta keh log apni raqam bank hee mein rakhein.

    jo log bank kay khilaf boltay hein wo khud apna paisa bank mein rakhtay hein. ajeeb baat hy! kia ho gaya hy ham logon ko?

    kia yeh koi sazish tou nahee jis kay tehat musalmanoo ko aapas mein larrwa kar unko apnay hee haathoon tabah kia jaey?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 19:13 #
  22. gv
    Member

    @ nota

    Let's call a truce on the personal comments!!

    As far as banking and finance is concerned I agree the current system is warped but finance and investment finance has existed since the fawn of time as a lubricant for economic growth and as a conduit for the redistribution of economic assets there is and always will be a need for financial capital and there will always be individuals and institutions which will fill that gap in an economy. As long as they are regulated to ensure fairness and efficiency they remain a positive socio economic factor.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 19:24 #
  23. @gv
    "As long as they are regulated to ensure fairness and efficiency they remain a positive socio economic factor. "

    I think the system has collapsed way beyond that ("to be regulated to ensure fairness and efficiency"). "Greed" has been "good" for too long and it has become part of the DNA. No regulation today can be put in today that is not accompanied by a loophole (that is what you buy the politicians for, isn't it?).

    Also see the case of Goldman Sachs I put up. Now no matter how faulty the regulations were, they were in place and Goldman still broke them. But you know what? Not one Goldman guy will go to jail, I'll bet you.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 20:01 #
  24. @Mirza Ghalib
    "nota, how come you didn't know what gv did for a living?"

    Well I guess i missed it somehow. I usually wasn't around in the 'Discuss' section and have started visiting it only recently...

    "So do we expect him to run down his own bread and butter (or tuna, perhaps he likes it) activity?"

    Certainly not. It is not that this is true of @gv alone. ALL bankers i know think they are doing God's work when in fact it is but the Devil's. No offense @gv but that is the truth. And I can understand why you cannot accept that. And I will never accept otherwise so we are at an impasse....

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 20:04 #
  25. OK, nota, thanks. And again I repeat, gv's natural integrity does not allow him to lie. If only his political ideas were on a par with his innate integrity! But that's another kettle of fish. Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to bring up fish again.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 20:11 #
  26. tamaazkhan
    Member

    @nota

    "they (bankers) are nothing but parasites. Tell me what do they produce? Anything besides misery?"

    Thats a very broad statement.
    What about Muhammad Yunus and Grameen Bank who have changed the face of industry and capital allocation in Bangladesh.

    Yes, there is a massive problem in the Broker-Investment Bank-Trader model of the banking behemoths such as GS, but to attribute that to the whole banking system is ridiculous.

    Most banks in Pakistan are deposit taking institutions, you do not have that model present in Pakistan at any scale so far.

    And please fiat, currency was used by the Chinese and Babylonians way before there were any Jews in the world, so lets not go down that idiotic line of thought again.

    You know the fields of law, science and theater are also over represented by Jews in the western world. Are those fields also haraam, and part of the conspiracy to control the world?

    Sometimes people in this forum are too partial to hyperbole rather than have a rational discussion on matters.
    That means you nota!

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 20:24 #
  27. No, no, not just. Be wary of anything Jewish. It always comes with an ulterior motive. But this I do not mean an indidual Jewish friend or so. But anything Jewish institutionalised is bound to bring harm with it. Law (shudder), science (no better), theater (no nothing about it). Let's add to it something I vaguely know something about: 1. Mainstram media (an absolute horror, as much a cause for the millions of Muslim deaths as the war machines themselves), the entertainment industry (another horror. Completely killed any sense of morality in the West) and what little I know about literature: Jewish monopoly over publishing houses killed any hope of greatness in contemporary writing. so not only nota, me too I wholly believe that they are killing us all in small doses. to which I'll add: they are stupid beyond words and never think beyond satisfying the greed of the day.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 20:41 #
  28. gv
    Member

    @nota

    no offence taken.. but i think it is fairly obvious that no system on this planet is fool proof... there are always systemic failures from time to time and rouge players who take advantage of weaknesses - yes the broker/dealer model needs serious reform and no i don't think any banker is doing god's work but banks perform a useful function in an economy.. as per my previous post..

    All political/economic systems aim to be the most effective/efficient based on available technology/knowledge(none of them can claim to have achieved perfection) The global financial system is in need of reform particularly vis a vis the broker/dealer institution - that doesn't mean you do away with modern finance altogether.

    And as far as GS is concerned i dont think - i know the regulatory mechanism is not robust enough and until it is up to par people will continue to abuse it - finally many bankers have gone to jail in the past for breaking the law, michael milken and nick leeson to name just two..

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 May 2010 23:53 #
  29. toamin
    member

    banks 'create' money thus are directly responsible for inflation and according to capitalist theory inflation is healthy for a society-

    this basic concept is based on corruption and injustice to society-

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 2:48 #
  30. khanseena1
    Member

    No one forces anyone to put money in a Bank.

    Where should I keep my hard earned money if not in a bank without getting it stolen?

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:03 #
  31. toamin
    member

    lolz..

    banks are not made for 'money storage', sorry to say but it shows such a naive view about this state of the art capitalist machinery-

    bank is to 'create' money and to create inflation-

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:10 #
  32. khanseena1
    Member

    @Salam

    So where should I keep my money. I also want to keep inflation down in our country.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:13 #
  33. toamin
    member

    i am not debating here where you should keep your money.

    i am trying to explain the purpose of bank-

    you can keep your money any where you like, may be in a checking account of bank, that is fine, but when you start helping bank 'create' money and create inflation than you are guilty islamically and morally-

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:16 #
  34. khanseena1
    Member

    I am not asking for a debate - only a solution. I dont want to be responsible morally or Islamically for this mess

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:20 #
  35. toamin
    member

    checking accounts are accounts that bank can not use for inflation purpose-

    for money storage/security, you may use checking accounts with zero minimum balance and no interest-

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:22 #
  36. khanseena1
    Member

    @Salam

    My friend checking accounts are part of Bank....I know that checking accounts do not give interest/ Sood.
    However this thread is about not using Banks at all. What is the alternative?

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:24 #
  37. toamin
    member

    yes, checking accounts are part of banks but as i've explained earlier these accounts do not help banking business-

    as far as providing alternate money storage/security facility is concerned, it is a state related matter where individuals can not do anything.

    i only suggested a solution as an individual

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 3:29 #
  38. all over the world ,as an institution ,"Bank "is loosing the trust of customers ...
    because of recessions ,big defaulters ,banks robberies ,internal audit corruptions and all .
    people are loosing trust .
    and in Pakistan ,we can see the same reflecting .
    Citibank is over ...Samba Bank with the tag of Zardari and Silk Bank with the tag of Shaukat Tareen is there .
    small foreign banks are winding up their businesses ,due to constant loss .
    Union Bank and Punjab Bank are already done with corruption.
    UBL and ABL are local banks with poor customer services .

    only three banks ,right now ,we can see ;
    SCB as international Bank and MCB due to strong Mansha party and HBL ...

    a common man is no more interested in banking .
    too many charges ,tax cuts and feeses are making him upset to the point that he rather prefer to dig his drawing room and put the money under the floor .......

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 6:28 #
  39. toamin
    member

    lolzz @dig drawing room and put money under the floor...

    our people are smart they know that Pak Rupee is continuously inflating so they buy property like piece of land or gold to avoid losing value due to inflation :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 7:36 #
  40. @Mirza Ghalib
    "But that's another kettle of fish..."
    So true...and what a kettle it is...;)

    @tamaazkhan
    @gv
    That you two could collectively come up with (only) three names (Muhammad Yunus, michael milken and nick leeson) from all of history certainly proves my point.

    I do know Michael Milken very well. He was no banker but the junk bond king wasn't he? He stole peoples' billions but where is he today? Passing himself off as "an American financier and philanthropist" AND SUCCEEDING and enjoying those billions.

    Leeson too was no banker but a derivatives broker. And his unauthorized speculative trading having caused the collapse of Barings Bank which cost the taxpayers billions, where is he today? Hanging from the neck on a pole? No! He is enjoying himself as the CEO of Irish football club Galway United.

    Muhammad Yunus and Grameen Bank I haven't looked into but all the stories in MSM being puff pieces -- and specially his winning the Nobel Peace Prize -- point towards something very, very, dark :-P (I certainly will have a look when time permits.)

    P.S. Can any one deny ALL wars are financed by Big Banks? Wasn't Hitler? Wasn't the Bolshevik Revolution? Weren't BOTH World Wars???

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 8:03 #
  41. mujh ko bank saray kay saray CHOR lagtay hain.
    aisa chor jo tie laga kay apse paisay mangay aur aap ussko denay pe majboor ho jayein.

    bank aik aisa idara hay jo ghareebon ki bachai hoee choti choti savings aik jaga karta hay takay kisi motay tazay Ameer aadmi ko qarzay kay toor pe day sakay.:):):)

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 8:14 #
  42. nota, spot on in your PS. These particular wars, world war or not, we'll leave to history, enjoy the selfsame backing.

    O, and choosy, you described one aspect of the bank scenario with absolute accuracy. Steal from the poor and give to the rich aspect.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 8:16 #
  43. thank you Mirza Ghalib.
    mein ne apnay sari saving apnay pillow mein chupa kay rakhai hay ,aur apna pillow mein kisi ko choonay bhi nahin deta ...:):):)
    yeh piasa kisi motay ameer aadmi ko nahin mil sakta .

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 8:26 #
  44. choosy, exactly my own feeling and my own doings. The usual place is supposed to be under the mattress though. What has your Mai got to say to all this then? And how are the Ph.D lessons coming along? It would be interesting to read the thesis she produces on the banking system in place at the moment.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 8:43 #
  45. he he he
    it seems like a cycle is going backwards direction...
    my Masi is learning about mathmaticas and importance of savings ....
    and i am getting put off after knowing that its nothing but a Gorakh Dhanda ....
    she wanna invest her savings some where ,out of reach of her Herione addicted husband and i wanna keep my money out of the reach of banks....

    what an irony !!!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 8:51 #
  46. Yes, indeed. Complications there, I can see. In fact even a blind man could see. But no doubt a solution... the Masi could divorce, you could... Ah yes, I've got it. Burn the filthy lucre and take a deep breath of release. You'd both be better off without it. And all of us along with you. Live off credit from now on. That's what I'm planning to do.
    As for addicts, you know how it is... Live and let live, say I, live and, but you know the rest of it already.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 9:09 #
  47. khalidhumayun
    Member

    Bank can afford security, every common depositor cannot hire security men. Against bank robberies there is a cover by insurance and re-insurance. But this is not my point. Period.

    Letter of credit, bill of exchange, internet transfers, phone banking and many payment instruments, they are part of banking system. To roll back the whole system is not that easy a job. Merely, giving examples of a few maladies (which every man made system has - only Allah provides a perfect system)is not a healthy trend. Slogans and personal opinions do not solve the problem unless a solid alternate system is forwarded to replace the present banking system. OK, a common depositor would keep their savings in gold, what about companies, the industrial sectors and business houses as well! Would they keep their money in gold, just how much gold is available in the world to keep the system running without print and electronic transfer. A slogan is only valid against the system when a replacing system is introduced side by side. Bank is a curse, just shouting this slogan is personal opinion and certainly not binding on ohers.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 9:51 #
  48. khalidhumayun sahib, you make a certain number of valid points, certainly. But the main thing is: we do not need to do much about anything at all. The leading banks are doing it all on their own. Impossible hubris. Their nemesis is coming daily nearer. The banks as we have known them so far will be wiped out off the face of the earth in every country in the world. Time till then to work out exactly how our own Islamic replacement version should function, taking some pointers perhaps, and I say perhaps, from some of the Gulf countries' attempts in that direction.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 10:06 #
  49. @Mirza Ghalib,
    meri masi apnay mian se talaq nahin lay sakti .
    mushriqi aurat hay bechari .:(:(:(

    haan ,mein ne zaror talaq day de hay apnay bank accounts ko.

    @Khalid Humyoun bhai sahib,
    alternate system is going to be introduced .
    first the need of alternate system of banking ,gets established strongly .

    if 95 out of 100 are sick of banking .
    than solution is need to be find out .
    if 56 are unhappy and 44 are happy .
    than solution is not required yet .

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 May 2010 10:13 #

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