PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

Can an Islamic state be Secular

(38 posts)
  1. hkbajwa
    Member

    Following is a truly enlightening article. I would love to know how our dear maulanas-in-training will refute it (as they no doubt will vehemently)
    It can be argued that the minimum definition of a secular state is one that permits all its citizens to freely practice, profess and propagate their religion (or the lack thereof) and it does not enact laws which discriminates in worldly affairs between citizens on the basis of their faith. Can an Islamic state offer a constitution and an environment which meets this description of secularism?
    If you seek an affirmative answer using the orthodox version of Islam as represented by our conservative politico-religious groups then you are going to be disappointed. But if you analyze the mission of Prophet Muhammad (sw) rationally then you are likely to be pleasantly surprised. The more you see into his life the greater the gulf you find between his actions (Sunnah) and that of our so-called Islamic leaders. The following ten arguments would show that the demagogues and self-righteous Mullahs have completely subverted the teachings of Islam:

    1. Freedom to practise religion:
    As ruler of Arabia, Prophet Muhammad granted a charter to Christians by declaring for them the freedom to freely practice their faith. The pact guaranteed that any Christian can profess his or her faith, that no Christian woman can forcibly be converted by her Muslim husband and that Muslims are supposed to respect and protect churches. This letter, sent to St. Catherine’s Monastery in Sinai, was an unprecedented testament to the magnanimity and liberality of Prophet Muhammad in an era when the world did not know tolerance. It is therefore extremely embarrassing that modern Muslim countries limit the practice of other faiths within their dominions.

    2. Freedom of worship:
    There were hundreds of idols in the sacred Kaaba that had been built by Abraham and consecrated for the worship of one God. Before he returned as the conqueror (and therefore as a ruler), the Prophet spent fifty years of his life in Mecca but never took the law in his own hands to demolish them. Certain puritanical brands of Islam, however, make it incumbent on themselves to ‘cleanse’ shrines and mosques of any trace of Shirk (polytheism). The hideous attack on Data Darbar in Lahore which is a mausoleum of an Islamic mystic is therefore yet another transgression by these deviants.
    A famous hadith relates that the Prophet permitted Christian priests of Najran – who believed in Trinity- to offer their prayers in his mosque. Contrast this with how Mullahs of today literally wash their mosques with milk if ‘filthy infidels’ (i.e. Muslims of other sects) happen to offer worship therein.

    3. Prohibition of compulsion in faith:
    A well-known Quranic verse states that ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ (2:256). Not many know of its context. Before the arrival of the Prophet, some polytheists of Madina had dedicated their children to be raised in the monotheistic Jewish tradition. The parents, who later converted to Islam, objected to when the Jewish guardians kept these children with them. However, the Prophet in the light of this Quranic verse refused them permission to forcibly take back their children and to convert them to Islam. Imagine the hell our religious parties would raise if children of Muslims were raised in a different faith.

    4. Definition of Muslim:
    A census was once conducted on the instruction of the Prophet to count the number of Muslims in Madina. The criterion set forth for being considered a Muslim for the purposes of census was only a simple declaration of Islam by the respondent (Sahih Bukhari). No distinction was made between momineen (true believers) or munafiqeen (hypocrites) in the final tally. In our era, however, a Pakistani parliament came up with a different definition of a Muslim for ‘the purposes of law’.

    5. Equality of citizens:
    The famous constitution Misaaq-i-Madina overseen by the Prophet declared that ‘the Jews and Muslims are one nation’ (Ummat-un-wahida). This charter negated any distinction and discrimination between the citizens of Madina and established their rights and responsibilities. It included a clause stipulating that every group – Muslim or otherwise – would defend the city against foreign attack. It is not without irony that in the armed services of Pakistan currently there is an unstated rule that no Ahmadi can advance beyond a certain rank regardless of his contributions. Furthermore, our religious parties see nothing but an enemy in the form of a Jew who is fundamentally incapable of being a regular citizen of a state.

    6. Blasphemy:
    Contrary to popular belief, there is no death penalty for blasphemy in Islam. Abdallah bin Aby Salool, a chief of Madina and a known hypocrite, declared himself the ‘most honorable’ man and the Prophet the ‘most dishonorable’ person of the city (Quran 63:7). In response to this blasphemy, his own son, who was a pious Muslim, asked the Prophet for permission to kill his father. The Prophet completely refused. Abdallah later died a natural death unmolested by any of the Prophet’s companions and the Prophet himself led his funeral prayer.

    Moreover, at both Mecca and Taif, while the Prophet bravely endured ruthless persecution and abuse, the opponents spared no moment in resorting to blasphemous language against him. None of his followers – the venerated Sahaba – ever attacked those who committed blasphemy during this period. Despite the hate and vitriol of his enemies, the Prophet instructed them steadfastness and resilience. Muslims of today who demand death penalty for Salman Rushdie or a ban on Facebook can take a lesson from this. They claim devotion to the Prophet but none of them bothers to spend their energy in raising their pens or voices in articulating the lofty virtue and nobility of character of their Prophet before a Non-Muslim audience.

    7. Assistance from Non-Muslims:
    The first Muslim migration from persecution in Mecca was to the Christian kingdom of Abbysinia whose ruler Najashi believed in tolerance and freedom of religion. He refused Qureshi demand for repatriation of these refugees. The Prophet openly showed his admiration and appreciation of Najashi for this act of benevolence. Contrast this with when our Mullahs declare anyone even remotely associated with the Christian West as an enemy of Islam.

    8. Apostasy:
    Simple apostasy or reneging from belief and which is not aggravated by war or rebellion is not punishable in Islam either. There is simply no basis from the conduct of the Prophet to having apostates killed. Ibn Abi Surh, once a Quranic scribe, became an apostate and engaged in open hostility to Muslims. The Prophet had given orders for his execution – not for apostasy per se – but for crimes of inciting vitriolic opposition and disorderliness against Muslims. During the conquest of Mecca, however, the Prophet mercifully forgave him.

    If capital punishment for apostasy was part of religion, it was unlikely that the Prophet would have forgiven Ibn Abi Surh and that too at such an opportune moment. However, the bread and butter of the Mullah today is to work lists of apostates and to have them declared wajib-ul-qatal (worthy of slaying).

    9. Obedience to a Non-Muslim authority:

    The Prophet’s thirteen years of persecution in Mecca under a hostile authority of Qureish tribe should be sufficient to dispel that a Muslim cannot be loyal citizen of the state even if dominated by Non-Muslims. There is not a single moment where the Prophet broke the rules or norms of the city. When the council of Qureish asked him and his followers to relocate to Shaib-i-Abi-Talib, in violation of their rights, he complied. Furthermore, it was customary for a person coming to Mecca to seek ‘aman’ or protection from a Qureishi chieftain. When the Prophet returned from his well-known trip to Taif he took protection from Adi bin Matab, a polytheist, in following this custom.

    These examples clearly go to show that secular obedience to a Non-Muslim authority is part of the Islamic faith. Deviating from the Sunnah, rebellious-minded Muslims never accept that a Non-Muslim can possess legitimate authority over a state.

    10. Protection of Non-Muslim property:
    At the battle of Khyber against a Jewish tribe, a herdsman incidentally converted to Islam. He also had with him herds belonging to his Jewish masters. Upon inquiring from the Prophet about what he should do with them, the Prophet instructed him to turn the animals back to their owners. If the protection of the property of Non-Muslims was not necessary then returning it to an enemy at a critical moment of war would have made no sense. In violation of the Prophet’s Sunnah, the Mullahs frequently declare that the lives, wives and properties of infidels are mubah (permitted).

    The aforementioned arguments are not an apologetic defense of Islam before a secularist jury. They are necessary to establish that the original Sharia of Prophet Muhammad (sw) satisfies the rigorous demands of secularism as defined earlier. This endeavor is also necessary for two other reasons. Firstly, the fools who operate in the name of Islam and have brought much disrepute to their faith by their intransigence, ignorance and hostility need to be challenged and discredited very religiously. Secondly, the ears of many Pakistani Muslims are responsive to religious sermons rather than to secular ideals. Hatred and bigotry in Islam’s name can therefore be strongly refuted using the Prophet’s Sunnah.

    The Prophet’s examples are a powerful reminder that his Islamic state offered tolerance, equality and justice to Muslims and Non-Muslims alike. Hence the rationale for why M. A. Jinnah repeatedly referenced the spirit of Islam in his speeches for Pakistan. Just like rational and decent people of Pakistan demand the Pakistan of Jinnah so must true and honest Muslims demand the Islam of the Prophet Muhammad (sw).

    The so-called Islamic laws of Pakistan are a total mess and stand at odds with the Prophet’s instructions. If not for secularism then for Islam’s sake, the powers that be in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan must restore the rights and privileges of citizens which they are long due.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Jul 2010 18:09 #
  2. hkbajwa
    Member

    hariskhan, NNL, supersoldier etc

    boys!!! where are you?? i'm really interested in your response to this.

    Posted 1 year ago on 08 Jul 2010 20:23 #
  3. hkbajwa
    Member

    guy... seriously... i'm truly curious what you think of this idea.

    I personally consider it to be very much in line with what i believe.

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 8:12 #
  4. shafiq12
    member

    My Dear Hqbajwa

    The answer to all of ur question is

    Pakistan is not Islamic state and it is not following Islam.

    and the Law of Pakistan is totally unislamic.

    and Solution is Sharia

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 10:56 #
  5. hkbajwa
    Member

    SS

    Read the article so you understand the context of the question

    the argument in the article is that Sharia based on the Quran and Sunnah IS secular in nature anyhow. The source of this secularism however is not human thought but divine guidance as per the quran and sunnah.

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 11:17 #
  6. Of course, it can. That's what the whole thing is about. The incredible tolerance propagated by Islam. But that is exactly what certain sects refuse to accept. May Allah guide us towards an Islami Nizam in Pakistan on the lines set down by our Prophet (PBUH) and not in keeping with the concepts of fringe groups.

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 12:17 #
  7. hkbajwa
    Member

    MG

    Whatever your feelings towards the beliefs of others i repeat what i have said before. I greatly appreciate your openness and tolerance. Such can only come from a security of faith which many people in this world lack.

    I have tried to explain the essentially secular nature of islamic government to people abroad, but it is next to impossible to convince them because they always point to the rejection of such tolerance by most muslim leaders the world over.

    But of course tolerance doesn't sit well with those who gain their power from the propogation of conflict.

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 13:59 #
  8. gv
    Member

    @hkb

    slight problem

    An islamic state means one who's legal code is derived from holy scripture

    a secular state means one where there is a complete separation of all things religious from all things political

    A secular islamic state is an oxymoron

    Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 14:53 #
  9. NNL
    member

    Thank you GV

    you have literally said my view on this topic.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 Jul 2010 11:58 #
  10. hkbajwa
    Member

    gv

    the point is that the fundamental wariness that most people have regarding Sharia law is that it will be an theologically oppressive state with no rights for minorities, no equality, no women's rights, no tolerance, no safety of individual rights and no freedom of personal faith.

    As this article argues, an islamic state would guarantee these aspects as a part of its theology.

    What the heck difference does it make whether it's called sharia, secularism, democracy or jingo the clown's amazing circus of fabulous laws??

    it's like two bakers needing an apple to make a pie, but refusing to move on with the pie making because they are arguing over which damn tree the apple came from... the fact is that IT'S AN APPLE.

    This world needs government with just laws, fair representation and deep respect for human rights... On that everybody agrees.

    The Prophet (pbuh) in his day created such a society and today mankind seeks to create the same.. If it can be established that contrary to general perception, sharia and secularism in practice are not mutually exclusive, then what the hell is the holdup? Secular and religious groups should get together and work out a system. the secularists can call it secularism and the religious can call it sharia.. the point is that it will be a mutually acceptable system in practice.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 Jul 2010 14:57 #
  11. Dear friends,

    Tasleem o Aadab

    Islam is secular in its nature.

    Islam is the modern religion that God has planned for the mankind to adopt it as their way of life. God Almighty started moulding its selected people to receive His initial guidance under the command of Ibrahim (as) and then advanced this training cadre for the next many generations in the light of the commandments of Torah; sent through Moses to impart the commandment and to train.... till their reformer Jesus came.

    The Israelite of Moses rejected their reformer---- but the Divine plan of God had to go on; so He brought forward other peoples who happily took the thread of Jesus; and has surely spread the word of God throughout the world. They although took the distorted route but no doubt the Christianity has touched its towering heights with in some 5oo years.

    Credit goes to Christians that they disciplined and brought the state of conscious of the entire world to its adult hood. After attaining those heights, this was the right time that after the earlier revelation of 'set of Commandments of Torah and Bible', God unfurled his word of wisdom and guidance to complete and finalize His plan. All the graces are for the Almighty that God; revealed His plan through Quran e karim and bestowed His special blessings to Muhammad (saw) and deputed him for the task.

    How blessed we are that we belong to the ranks and files of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

    With the dawn of final word in Islam; Muslims are asked to put their earnest effort to take His word out to the people in the world; and also to the non-believers who happen to be under the umbrella of Islam in the countries conquered or won by Muslims. So we find that even where we have got Muslims in majority; and Muslims may be governing the affairs of governments; there ought to be the equal rights for all the other citizens.

    In any case; Islam stems from Judea (Israelite) and Christian and till the time they do not find themselves convinced with role models presented to them by the people claiming to be Muslims and the recipient of the word of guidance of Quran. They rather remain the most privileged that the normal Muslims; and allowed to stick to their religion and free to go to their churches, synagogues and temples. This is God's design.

    Accordingly, in order to accommodate others who have not yet joined Islam; God Almighty says;

    [2:62].“Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.”

    Muslim are supposed to be most educated and articulate enough to introduce the message of Allah to the present day world with logic and reasoning. They have to present themselves as role models in such a way that all the others must envy to follow.

    The prerogative of guidance in any case is left with Allah. Muslims are to respect other people's religion and beliefs and are not suppose to coerce others; because Allah says: [2;256] “There should be no compulsion in religion.”

    Islam is secular in its nature; so must carve the regulation and laws of their countries which is accepted by all and it is to remain as such till everybody on the planet accepts Islam and then Khilafat and its Sharia laws are spelled out in its entirety. Islam has a long journey ahead. There are about 77% of peoples on this planet out there, who have yet to get convinced to accept Islam.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 18:02 #
  12. gv
    Member

    @HKB

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your last post. If life were that easy all of us on this forum would be linking arms and singing along to 'here comes the sun' after reading your little soliloquy

    You are confusing the meaning of secular. If you replace 'secular' with tolerant' your post will make perfect sense.

    A secular state is not neccessarily a tolerant state. Communist China is secular as was Communist Russia. North Korea is secular as well... As was Baathist Iraq..

    You can't just missappropriate words to mean something they do not..

    Words have specific meaning so people can give clear form to thoughts and ideas.. your thoughts and ideas lose meaning if the words you use to express them are unidentifiable..(or in this case inappropriate to the context making your entire piece nonsensical)

    @AK

    Sir i'm still waiting for you to tell me why you believe that Mirza Sahib is the messiah?

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 23:29 #
  13. The literal meanings of secular are; not spiritual or religious and secular state means that a state which is not only following the spiritual or religious rules.

    I have tried to explain the facts in above post of mine that why an Islamic state may not have its 100 % Muslims citizens. Islam is ever progressive religion and in any Muslim state, there are suppose to be many other non-Muslims minorities pursuing other religions also. In order to accommodate them within the governmental legislations, the rules of society as a whole may not be framed purely on Islamic jurisprudence.

    There is also another fear attached to this; that--- if a state is not secular; then it is purely a ‘Sectarian state’; that is to say.....intolerant religious Mullah and his cohorts will be the only legible identities to be in the seats of power and to govern.

    If rein of power is handed over to the brutal Mullah who believe in commanding the society through; fear and terror ----that for his personal gains and fulfilment of his rapacious greed of money; he even may not condemn the heinous crime like of TTP in Pakistan; if this becomes the state of affairs; then ---it is; Al amaan o Al Hafeez.

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 0:47 #
  14. Dear GV,
    you asked for it.

    My personal belief in Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed (as) as Promised Messiah is based, on very simple reasoning. I have travelled a lot in search of truth about Islam; also studied a lot. Have seen many Islamic groups; spent some time with them but when I came across Ahmadies; I stopped.

    I read; read and read and prayed to God to lead me through. After Dr. Israr Ahmed, I do hold a special respect for Tahirul Qadri sahib and have also attended, many of his late night sessions/ gatherings whenever I was in Lahore.

    Mean while; I attended a grand Munazara held at Minar e Pakistan Lahore in 1989 against the khalifa tul Masih the fourth; Mirza Tahir Ahmed of Ahmadies. The leading Pakistani ulemas including Tahirul qadri were there. I could visualise that in Munazara; all the allegations loaded with foul language since framed against Ahmadies were totally false--- what all I have seen in Ahmadies or read in Ahmadiyya books. Their allegation and challenges were based on concoction, cherry picked out of context references framed to mislead the masses and keep them sizzling in a fire of hatred against Ahmadies. I was thoroughly disappointed.

    I believe in a living God; and following Quran verse is the pillar of my faith and gives me the bionic strength that Mirza Huzrat Ghulam Ahmed claim of his being a promised messiah is nothing but true.

    Allah Jala Shan hou clearly states about any ‘False claimant’ or anyone who even forges some lies in respect of God or about his special communion with Allah. Allah says:

    [Al-Haqqah-69:43--45] It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. ()“And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,() We would surely have seized him by the right hand”,() And then surely We would have severed his life-artery”.

    I hope we believe in Living God who can take care of affairs of his domain. If at all Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is an imposter. God Almighty would have duly taken care of this man but--- if Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is right and True; then I hope we are not repeating the same folly which the old Israelite (Jews) Ulemas did about their prophet Jesus (as). They got passed a verdict of imposter against him and sent Jesus to the cross to die a humiliating death.... they kept on boasting about jesus fate for about 600 years that later Quran reveals for us entirely a different story. That what kind of transgressors those ulemas were and how they were subjected to wrath of God Almighty. May God save us.

    About 100 years have come to pass; Ahmadies were just few then and now they are grown into millions and are growing ever faster.

    Blessed are the nations in the world who have the honour to act as the host of the divinely jammats of Ahmadiyya---which is the true face of Islam.

    Even in Pakistan, where they are not as many but they are happy and feel lucky in a way that when in Pakistan they are persecuted--- they sing:

    Ous key naam peh marain khana; ab ehzaz humara
    Aisi kissi ke; yeh izzat; Aouqat naheen Daikhi

    It certainly requires a deep study which should be carried out without any preconceived ideas and general perception since cast by mullah in the society. Jammat Ahmadiyya provides a treasure of information on their website; which is worth going through.

    Please link: http://www.alislam.org/

    With best of regards

    (Above is here in response to your reminder. Please find orignal at; @Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam: Heretic or a Scapegoat')

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 2:09 #
  15. gv
    Member

    @AK

    If I am to understand you correctly - you believe he is the messiah because

    i) "all the allegations loaded with foul language since framed against Ahmadies were totally false---"

    ii) "If at all Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is an imposter. God Almighty would have duly taken care of this man"

    iii) "then I hope we are not repeating the same folly which the old Israelite (Jews) Ulemas did about their prophet Jesus as"

    iv) "Ahmadies were just few then and now they are grown into millions and are growing ever faster."

    Sir with all due respect you have not provided me with any tangible reason of why you believe that Mirza Sahib is the messiah based on his teachings or his philosophy?

    As I have said earlier there is nothing revolutionary in his teachings. Peaceful progressive interpretations of Islam minimizing the role of the clerics have been espoused before by other thinkers in the sub-continent.. So why him? What is so special about him?

    Why not chose the Aga Khan or why not Shah Waliullah or even Bulleh Shah ? All the above espouse humanist progressive interpretations of Islam. The Ismaili's even have a similar communal set up as the Ahmadis....

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 10:20 #
  16. gv
    Member

    with respect to your comments on secularism - please look up the official definition of secularism.. your understanding of the term is flawed.

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 10:55 #
  17. GV,
    As I said earlier; pure Islamic state may reshape it self a 'Sectarian state’. I have also pointed out earlier above here; what may be the repercussion of having a Sectarian State. In northern area, Muslims have been demanding Jazia from non-Muslim Sikh Citizens; if they want to stay in their area of influence. How much more; a Mullah can play up; sky is the limit.

    To harness; all this--- a system offering some middle grounds ought to be evolevd for which the nearest term in sight can be seculaism -- but not necessarily with its literal meanings. any how; one of its meaning are; civilised and non religious.

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 11:44 #
  18. If by secular state one means that the religion be kept separate from the state, then NO, Islamic state cannot be Secular. But if by secular state one takes the meaning that all it's citizens are free to practice their religion, then YES, Islamic state can/should be secular.

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 11:53 #
  19. GV,
    In above rendering; I did point out that; I accepted Ahmadiyyat because I had studied Ahmadiyyat and have been inter acting with Ahmadies friends before accepting it..

    Any how we may not ignore Ahmadies or shrug them off---- as yet another disgruntled sect. They have got a tall claim; which demands thorough studies.

    To know them through studies and seeing them on ground by meeting them to know about Ahmadiyyat is the requirement to believe in Ahmadiyyat.

    Please go to the Ahmadiyya website and study the Philosophy of Islam given by promised Messiah (as) to start with.

    Thank you

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 12:06 #
  20. Umer;
    Yes Agreed 100%
    Islam is a way of life and--- the knowledge, civility and equal rights for all the people under its umbrella is its essence.

    Alag ho deen say siasat
    tou reh jati he Changazi

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 12:16 #
  21. gv
    Member

    @AAK

    "To harness; all this--- a system offering some middle grounds ought to be evolevd for which the nearest term in sight can be seculaism -- but not necessarily with its literal meanings."

    well you know there is this little word called tolerance................

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 12:36 #
  22. GV,
    Tolerance-- is open-mindedness, fortitude and patience; which reflect the norms or the character of any society but not the system adopted by society.
    Whereas secularism is the system to ensure equal rights for all, which may be evolved to achieve the required standard---- like tolerance

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 13:01 #
  23. gv
    Member

    I give up !

    fine have your 'secular islamic' state and call it as you will...

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 15:01 #
  24. gv, I've never known you to give up in this fashion before. Taking a leaf out of my book, are you? Anyway, whatever state we do get finally, let's hope it works for and with the people. And let's hope we don't end up by falling into Bilal Zardari's hands. We'll all be sobbing for our Islamic State then.

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 17:12 #
  25. gv
    Member

    @mg

    I give up because the man has no rational logic to his line of argument what's the use in my going on like a broken record

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 21:19 #
  26. Gv,

    Don’t get angry;

    Ok; I will go by yours Phenomenon of ‘Read my lips’.... to the extent that you call others irrational and illogical?
    Are you--- happy now...!

    But you know: I find this world a funny world.... people rarely like to change their mind. I have seen that when you don’t like others views; people go ahead to use the broad sweeping tool--- rational or irrational to reject others; which gives them a right to claim that their views are the only just views which must be accepted as right and judicious..... may they be standing there; without logic or reasoning.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Jul 2010 9:19 #
  27. gv
    Member

    @AK

    I don't have an issue with your views - i take issue with your manipulating terms to mean something else...
    you cant force words to mean what you want them to mean just because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Jul 2010 10:02 #
  28. AK, if I may. This is a quarrel over a single word. And I fear, gv is right. Now if one were to say something like "a tolerant Islamic State could be as accommodating (or freedom-loving or the qualifier you wish to use) as any Secular State (= strict separation of political and religious power)", the matter might be settled to the satisfaction of all concerned.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Jul 2010 17:15 #
  29. MG,

    Gv---- is the most sweet, loving person around here.

    There has never been a quarrel. It was just a chitchat about a system that we may evolve to ensure equal rights for all in our dream land and with ample amount of tolerance to form its base that this intolerant society needs the most.

    Regards.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Jul 2010 18:25 #
  30. OK, thanks. And yes to above, except the conclusion. Pak is not intolerant even if on the surface it might appear to be so. It is simply a very troubled society. And little wonder. Hence it's need for every citizen to stand up and be counted.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Jul 2010 11:09 #
  31. NNL
    member

    Kudos Gv

    Its a surprise actually for me. That you didnt back out of this discussion cos someone wanted to manipulate a certain word to feel warm and fuzzy inside.

    I truly appreciate your honesty.

    May Allah Azza Wa Jal Guide you and me to His Path.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Jul 2010 11:20 #
  32. fayyaz214
    Member

    @all ... I think we got caught up in the words .. let me ask this question .. does Islam advocates a system that

    "permits all its citizens to freely practice, profess and propagate their religion (or the lack thereof) and it does not enact laws which discriminates in worldly affairs between citizens on the basis of their faith.". Please respond with "yes" or "no" and give your arguement.

    I believe the answer is yes.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Jul 2010 16:50 #
  33. pirbodla
    Member

    @ gv
    Surely, your sense of good judgment beside your good command of English language has impressed me positively. I feel you are an asset on this forum for the youngsters striving to improve themselves. I even commend you for pointing out the true connotation of the word ‘secular’, which is distinctly the opposite of ‘religious’.

    Unfortunately, most of our people misunderstand the actual import of this term. However, some obsessed with an ideology of secular humanism, like to impose this system on people who paid big price for the creation of Islamic State. These secularists even try to prove that Mr Jinnah was a man of their ideology. They forget that Quaid-e-Azam devoted his everything to create a true Islamic state, where the minorities would be free to practise their faith. He knew that according to Quran, all humans are the children of Adam, and true Islamic State must not impose Islam on those who are not Muslims.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Jul 2010 19:54 #
  34. pirbodla
    Member

    @ A khokar
    I am sorry to say that you often try to impress other by mare verbose rather than providing and accepting simple facts. Your argument or justifications for ‘secular’ have been weak. The simple thing is that Pakistan is an Islamic state, therefore it cannot be a secular state or sectarian state. True Islamic state should have the capacity to accommodate others in its territories. When Islam has proper guideline for the just treatment of Muslims as well as non-mulims, why should people be obsessed with novel ideas?

    Now, let me quote an example of misconception by most followers of secular humanism about Quaid-e-Azam. To corroborate their claim they often quote his famous speech of 11th august 1947 when he said: “You are free, free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State.”

    Is there any doubt that Quaid was only reiterating the massage of Quran? Allah says in Surah Kaferoon: “Say: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)”

    Islamic State IS NOT supposed to impose its will on other religions? Is there any compulsion in religion? Has Quran not informed us that the whole humanity i.e., the children of Adam are a superior of all creations upon whom the Last Messenger was sent as a mercy?

    The solution is not in ‘secular humanism’ but in ‘Islamic Musawaat’. Quid never suggested Pakistan to be a Secular State for he was fully aware of the difference
    between ‘Secularism’ and ‘Religion’. The speeches of Quaid are clear enough for any one to know what he wanted. Here is just one example:
    In his speech at the Frontier Muslim League Conference on November 21, 1945, he said: “…….. The Muslims demand Pakistan where they could rule according to their own code of life and according to their own cultural growth, traditions and Islamic laws.”
    ----------------

    BTW, in respond to ‘gv’ you said:
    “Dear GV,
    you asked for it.
    My personal belief in Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed (as) as Promised Messiah is based, on very simple reasoning. I have travelled a lot in search of truth about Islam; also studied a lot. Have seen many Islamic groups; spent some time with them but when I came across Ahmadies; I stopped.”

    Your above statement is ok as for yourself, but this is very misleading for others who are under no doubt that Mirza Sahib was an impostor. My intention is not to offend you but to highlight the reality, unless you prove me wrong.
    In one of your posts, you said: “Blessed are the nations in the world who have the honour to act as the host of the divinely jammats of Ahmadiyya---which is the true face of Islam.”
    My dear, they may not be aware of what your promised messiah used to say about Jesus (as). However, you cannot deny that he often said that if Jesus was alive during his time, he could not match him for performing the miracles. You messiah or prophet said that what Jesus used to do was sheer mesmerism.

    As far as your claim of true Islam, I had elsewhere provided you a proof, through your own sources, of one false prophesy (this was just one out of numerous other false claims), when he claimed an upcoming birth of a son namely ‘Yahya’. This son was never born, and thus God exposed him as an imposter - full stop.
    However, despite that, you could not prove him right, and yet you are calling his cult as a ‘true Islam’. Have you have any justification for such bogus claims?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Jul 2010 20:47 #
  35. Pirbodla,

    Bari der Ki mehrban attey Attey;
    Long time: no see. Where have you been? I was really missing you.
    Any how; wellcome back.

    BTW; where is Psycho.... I hope he is Ok.... Since long he is not seen.....I am getting worried; he is not the one who could stay away from this forum. I pray for his good health. Hope he is live and kicking; maybe he got busy in some business affairs... May Allah be with him... he is great asset on this web site.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Jul 2010 23:27 #
  36. Pirbodla,

    In case of GV and his insistence of substituting secularism with tolerance, I stand by my view as correct. As I said that:
    "Tolerance-- is open-mindedness, fortitude and patience; which reflect the norms or the character of any society but not the system adopted by society.
    Whereas secularism is the system to ensure equal rights for all, which may be evolved to achieve the required standard---- like tolerance"

    But

    When Gv said I give up; so I ceased to press him further.... not to expose or frustrate the Youngman any further, so I said;

    Don’t get angry;

    Ok; I will go by yours Phenomenon of ‘Read my lips’.... to the extent that you call others irrational and illogical?
    Are you--- happy now...?

    I think this should be enough an indication that whereas; I stand by my view; I simply Ignored all this as a good gesture.

    And why should we discuss this anyway when both these allien species; Secualarism or the tolernace are not even found or entertained in our society?

    Regards.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Jul 2010 23:38 #
  37. Dear Friends,

    It's all gone with the wind

    Pirbodla says:

    “To corroborate their claim they often quote Qaid e Azam (ra) famous speech of 11th august 1947 when he said: “You are free, free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State.”

    That was the dream that quid e Azam dreamt; but where is that Pakistan and where is that dream....All has just gone with the wind. Half of Pakistan was lost in 1971 and remaining half has gone to scavengers that the savages are busy dragging and scavenging it as their prey....!

    Realistically speaking: Hazrat Qaid E Azam dreamt of creating a country--- not for Islam but for the Muslims---- that he saw it was untenable for them; that they, have ruled this subcontinent--India for last hundreds of years; and now they would ever be able to reconcile with an idea of a subservient status and may live as minority with Dalit like slave and menial status--- in a Hindu dominant society.

    And today we find that: Ek Kahani Khatum hoiee Anjam say Pehlay hee.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 0:59 #
  38. pirbodla
    Member

    @ A khokar

    It is nice to know that at lest there is some one who remembers me. I can assure you that I also think about all of you members of this forum. I can also assure you that I regularly visit this forum even if I do not write much. I feel that frequent participation in the forums is more appropriate for youngsters with fresh brains, rather then outdated old people like me. As for Psycho, I too miss him too much; in fact, it was because of him I started to visit this forum. If he is anywhere around, I would request him, ‘please come back with your witty rejoinders and rebuttals to keep everyone engaged’.

    Now, turning to our topic about the doctrine of secularism, I have to say that if you remain adamant about not accepting the reality then it is up to you. Nonetheless, I must say that snubbing the truth and ignoring the facts does not make anyone look tall. To see where you stand, compare your description with the dictionary description of secularism.
    [According to your description, ‘Secularism: is the system to ensure equal rights for all’. According to dictionary description, ‘Secularism: A doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations.’]

    Please do not think that I am being funny by quoting dictionary, but to end the controversy this is the only option, since you were giving the meaning of ‘egalitarianism’ to ‘secularism’. In fact, these are two different doctrines, where the former is consistent with the Holy Quran, while the later is certainly inconsistent with it.

    This is the how the dictionary describes it:
    [Egalitarianism: The doctrine of the equality of mankind and the desirability of political and economic and social equality.]
    As we read in Surah Al-Isra verse 70:
    وَلَقَدۡ كَرَّمۡنَا بَنِىٓ ءَادَمَ ‘ Verily, we have honoured the children of Adam.’
    It was the Egalitarian State, which Quaid-e-Azam wanted, and not the Secular State, as you find not a speck of it in this following extract from his speech:
    “………Quranic provisions which determine the limits of our freedom and restrictions in political and social spheres. In other words, the Islamic state is an agency for enforcement of the Quranic principles and injunctions.”

    This was his an Islamic state or to put in his words, “an agency for enforcement of the Quranic principles and injunctions.” , which he wanted.
    Now if you are elated to see it going in the wind, as you put it, “Ek Kahani Khatum hoiee Anjam say Pehlay hee.” it is because of your beloved prof. Mushs, Zaradis and ,Bhuttos. We all can see what is happening to it and why, so no new presages are required. As for your words about the creation of Pakistan that it was not for Islam but for the Muslims, I withold my comments except reminding you the above words of Quaid-e-Azam. I will not even chase you for my other questions about your Promised Pessiah or Prophet, which you conveniently ignored, obviously for having no answer.

    Finally, I wish you all the best.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 23:45 #

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