shimatoree
Member
If it could be done by speeches and political meetings –
-( parliamentary or presidential democracy)-
-then all the Muslims to-day in the world would be Shia
since the Shia Mullahs have been giving speeches with great logic and reason for
1300 years about injustice and ZULM at Karbala that was done to the Grandson of the Prophet(PBUH).
Well they have failed to convert the majority of the Sunnis.
So what really is the future of this new savior called democracy ?
shirazi
Member
@shimatoree
Very interesting point. I look it from a different angle though. The feud between Yazeed and Imam Hasan and Hussain can not be used as barometer to gauge democracy. It was a political battle between sons of two rulers who wanted to rule 1400 years ago. Amer Mahviah's son had majority and Ali's sons had legacy. I fail to understand how Saudis and Iranians kept it relevant for all these centuries in ME and has successfully exported it to subcontinent.
Whatever happened then is irrelevant to political realities and challenges of today's world. Off all the political systems dictatorships, monarchies, democracies I think democracy is the best option.
I don't see the connection...I mean I might be wrong but how do you connect speeches to democracy...
shimatoree
Member
Dildar-
Western democracy today is politicians making speeches( in crowds or on TV) and making more speeches in the parliament trying to convince others of their point of view. This is the essence of Western Democracy. It is simple.
If you do not see the connection then I am sorry to say that perhaps you do not wish to see the connection.
Shirazi-
If you consider that it is irrelevant to connect speech making in front of crowds, in parliament- with the functioning of democracy- then I do not which democracy you are citing as the best form of Govt..
No form of govt is best.
It is the leaders who determine what works and what does not.
This world in 200 years will not even know who was Zardari or who was Nawaz Shareef but they will know Jinnah.
Democracy is a govt by smart and clever people( who might be honest or corrupt) for the Fools of this world who continue to believe in the mantra of egalitarianism and equality so that they can be made to what the clever political leaders want.
Take Singapore for example. Is it a democracy ? No by strict definition. Lee Kwan Yew was almost a dictator when the British left- look what they have done from an economic stand point
Brother Shirazi, It's better to keep quiet than talk about a subject you know nothing of. I take offense to what you've said regarding Imam hassan and Hussain(raa).
Soren Kierkegard said, The tyrant dies and his rule ends, the martyr dies and his rule begins. And so Imam Hussain(ra) still rule the hearts of those who have one, and the word Yazeed has become the biggest abuse one could hurl at a Muslim and no body even likes to give that name to their sons.
And yet, shimatoree, Iqbal once said democracy was an Islamic invention, after the Parthians, of course. If I may quote him once again: "The best form of Government for such a [Islamic] community would be democracy, the ideal of which is to let man develop all the possibilities of his nature by allowing him as much freedom as is practicable. ... Democracy, then, is the most important aspect of Islam regarded as a political ideal. It must, however, be confessed that the Muslims, with their ideal of individual freedom, could do nothing for the political improvement of Asia. Their democracy lasted only 30 years and disappeared with their polical expansion." p. 101, Muslim Political Thought - a Reconstruction.
What do you make of it, shimatoree?
UmeR, spot on. Thanks.
gv
Member
@mg
Err the 'parthians' were a persian dynasty of late antiquity they had absolutely zip to do with democracy
shimatoree
Member
Mirza Sahib
I am going to speak( sort of) quite bluntly about democracy and it's inception from the very start.
The Athenian Greeks are credited with having started this false form of Govt. I call it false because the govt. in Athens was based on extensive slavery of the " natives". This so-called democracy also excluded by "DESIGN" women and " barbarians"-(non-Greeks living there who were not slaves).
So if you examine it - it was for a selected bunch of people.
A lot of white wash has been done by those in the West who wish to connect themselves with the Athenian Greeks.
The other Greek states like Sparta practiced a different form of govt also based on slaves-( the native people whom the Spartans called " HELOTS".
I am not very well read in what Iqbal had to say so, I would prefer not make any comment on what he said.
But democracy as it is practiced-( and not as it is idealized in theoretical discussions) is a farce and highest form of crookery.
Take the example of India about which everyone of the chattering classes of Pakistan keep talking about without ever having gone there to see what really is going on.
If democracy appeals- then pray tell me how is it that a very small minority( the Jewish population) can dictate the foriegn policy of the super power the USA ?
I feel that democracy as practiced in the West is not the model for the people of the Muslim world. The example of Pakistan is front of everyone. Thieves, murderers ,charlatans and crooks have been placed in positions of power to steal and plunder the country to it's bare bones and the very same thieves keep singing the adulation of this democracy. And they want to be allowed to continue this farce without interruption so that democracy improves !
The reason as to why nations progress( economic) has to do with good leadership.
And to imagine that the majority which consists of uneducated uninformed slaves will somehow come up with the equivalent of the theory of relativity or Plato's Republic is utter rubbish.
The American democracy is a democracy for those with money who lobby and get their desired legislation passed .
It was the American democracy which caused planned, pre-meditated EXTERMINATION of the native Red Indian peoples.
It was this very same American democracy which permitted the business of slavery where Africans were kidnapped from their own countries, placed in shackles like cattle in ships, brought to America and sold.
I could go on but I think I have made my point.
If any demonstration was needed- the Punjab Assembly gave a great demonstration of democracy when they passed their " Qara Daad" against the media.
Democracy is farce perpetuated on the ignorant by clever rich people for their advancement of their own interests.
I would have a Hazrat Umar any day. And that is what the Muslims need.
shimatoree
Member
Mirza Sahib
If you are ineterested in Leadership( I am sure you are)-
Please look up LYCURGUS ( Google it)
toamin
member
Can democracy solve the muslims problems?
Of course not, has it solved problems of democracy worshipers? No.
shimatoree
Member
Mirza Sahib -
Also Adolf Hitler was ELECTED in a democratic election and was supported by the majority of the Germans in the Final Solution t for the " Jewish" problem- which ended up in extermination of a large number of Jewish and non-Jewish people.
The idea of planned pre-meditated extermination- where did he get it from ?
From the Extermination of the Red Indians as carried out in America !
shimatoree
Member
More on the so-called Indian democracy-
1. Lalu Parshad Yado bankrupted the state of Bihar for his own enrichment.
2. Mayawati, the elected chief minister of U.P. has spend in excess of 3000 crore ruppees in building her own statues of Red Sand stones in Lucknow.
3. Parkash Singh Badal- chief Minister of Indian Punjab- collects more than one hundred crore in bribes every month openly.
I am sure I will cause a great deal of pain and tension amongst those to whom India appears as the MODEL for Pakistan to follow.
@Shimatoree
Thanks a lot for that informative piece on Democracy....
How do you explain the so-called Khilafat...
Dont you think that it is controlled by the same corrupt people who will have to use Islam to justify each of their sin under the umbrella of Sharia....
Shock
Members
Nothing can solve the muslim's problems. I am against this Ummah crap anyways. Why don't you let me live in your house and feed me forever because I am your mulsim brother? does this make any sense.
shimatoree
Member
Dildar
I have NOT made any comments on this pseudo- issue of Khilafat.
The days of GIANT nation states-( if ever) are gone for good.
And with apologies to those that speak Farsi- I would label it more of the " Pidrum Sultan Bood" state of mind.
My view is analytical from purely a historical perspective.
I do not think those that are pro-khilafat would like my comments. And that is why I have tried to stay away from it.
shimatoree
Member
When you need to have surgery- do you go to the sweepers and chowkidars of the hospital ? No.
You go to a good surgeon that you check out to make sure that he or she will take good care of you.
So a sick nation such as Pakistan which is dying needs a good surgeon who is fearless, courageous and incorruptible like Robespierre.
@Shimatoree
"Democracy is farce perpetuated on the ignorant by clever rich people for their advancement of their own interests."
Again you are talking 'simple' things ;-) ...The usual response to expect is "worst democracy is better than best dictatorship" bs (which I think is a spin of Churchill's "Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time". Well it has been tried many, many times but always with the same result :) (Interestingly he also stated "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter"; He must have had a chat with Dildar and Shock :-P )
Can democracy solve the Muslim's problems? I ask: Can democracy solve ANYONE'S problems? Below are some quotes by westerners about this con called "democracy":
Thomas Jefferson: "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
John Adams: "Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either [aristocracy or monarchy]. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide."
Shaw: "Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve."
Mencken: "Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses."
Alan Coren: "Democracy consists of choosing your dictators after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear"
Bob Dylan: "Democracy don't rule the world, You'd better get that in your head; This world is ruled by violence, But I guess that's better left unsaid."
Robert Byrne: "Democracy is being allowed to vote for the candidate you dislike least."
Abbie Hoffman: "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists".
Brandeis: "We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
Howard Zinn: "When people refuse to obey, then democracy comes alive."
Theodore Roosevelt(1906): "Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day."
Aldous Huxley (1959): "And it seems to me perfectly in the cards that there will be within the next generation or so a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing...a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda, brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods."
John Jay (Member of the Convention that wrote the U.S. Constitution): "The people who own the country ought to govern it".
Benjamin Franklin: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
(Ah, so is Ben stating "Democracy" and "Liberty" are not to be confused as one and the same?!)
Oscar Wilde: "Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."
Menchen: "Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right."
Churchill: "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
Shaw: "Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."
Emerson: "Democracy becomes a government of bullies tempered by editors."
Anatole France: "In every well-governed state, wealth is a sacred thing; in democracies it is the only sacred thing."
Menchen: "Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."
Helen Keller: "Our democracy is but a name. We vote? What does that mean? It means that we choose between two bodies of real, though not avowed, autocrats. We choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledee."
shimatoree
Member
nota
I stand in awe - educated and illuminated-
-thanks to your thoroughness and scholarship.
I have made a habit of saving these GEMS from you in a MS word file for future ref:
Thank you again.
toamin
member
shimatoree
please do not hide behind universal sayings like surgeon or patient, you know that socio/political issues are far more complex, i like to see your vision/model/idea of solution
i believe that for Muslims only thing that could work is which emanates from the belief system, this is the key here, copying another nations solution will not work because people actually don't believe in it... believing in an idea is the key.. west believes in what they live under..
naseemkhanan
Member
What ever guidance is provided to us by Islam is enough and we are content with it. Why should we go for and adopt flawed western ideologies. Democracy is not even closer to just one Islamic concept 'musawat'.
Shock
Members
"Why should we go for and adopt flawed western ideologies."
Well you don't have to adopt flawed western ideologies, but those who do then let them do it. Freedom, equality, tolerance, respect of others, letting people be the way they want to be, not worrying about what people wear are not western values, these are human values. These things don't exist in the muslim world.
gv, err, sorry to contradict. Know who the Parthians are. They were the first people on earth to practise the principle of election. Or so Iqbal, not quite an ignorant fool, claims. Islam was the second. How come no one reads Iqbal any longer?
nota, super. But your own sense of humour was what I liked best.
shimatoree: Your description of democracy is very much what I think of the thing myself. Democracy cannot exist without slavery is how I think of it myself. A pity you don't know your political Iqbal, then. It is one of his English texts and is profound beyond measure.
Shock, I don't know where you live. But a more live and let live society than Pakistan I have never come across. You apparently have no idea of the immense tolerance and freedom which are integral parts of Islam. Too bad.
Salam Sahib, backed up by Naseem: Exactly that. The elite can choose to follow false gods, the overwhelming majority of our population is Muslim to the core. This is their country above all. They should be given a genuine government of Islamic virtue and dedication.
gv
Member
@mg
Well our dear ol allama appears to have his facts muddled up...
Varying forms of the electoral process have existed in tribal and early urban civilisations since time immemorial...
The Parthians were a Perso-Hellenic 'imperial' dynasty that ruled most of western Asia between the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD...
Even if we wildly hypothesise for a moment that they practicsed some form of 'democracy'; Greco-Roman forms of democracy (well documented) predate the Parthians by 300 years.
Even the Indians circa 6th / 5th century BC are supposed to have had some form of elected monarchy in the North. (Siddhārtha Gautama's shaka confederation was part of this)
So i'm afraid your info is wrong here.
p.s Thanks for sticking up for me on the secular point that refused to sink in for certain people of the obtuse kind...
Ok, gv, if you're sure of your facts, then maybe Iqbal was using a selective memory on that one. And got it wrong. Sorry about that. Truth to tell, the Greco-Roman form of democracy has never been much to my taste and has left me with the unshakeable conviction of its close connection with manipulation and slavery. I'd much rather Siddhartha's shaka confederation and his final realisation that all this was but a hollow approximation of what life was all about.
As to PS, you were right, after all. My pleasure.
Hang on, gv, the mistake was mine. Not Iqbal's, whew. Saved by the bell. He meant in Asia. Not on other continents.
shafiq12
member
Can Democracy solve the Muslim's problems
The democracy is itself the biggest problem, Can u hope that a problem will solve other Problem
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship
and Majority Lead to EVIL
ajhons
Member
I think the "Shura" concept in islam is more democratic where the wisemen of the society sit togather and debate the different issues including the Ruler's appointnet.
Another thing is that in China if they have to build a dam a technichal team decides weather it should be build or not and at what place.
Can a innocent hari or kisan should be allowed to vote for their rulers when they no almost nothing about rest of the country.
Im not sure if I convy what I want to.
Agreed ajhons. Wise comments based on logic.
gv
Member
@MG
nope he's definitely wrong if we take into account the indian example and the simple inescapable fact that the Parthians were monarchic..... with no form of election whatsoever....
gv
Member
@ajohns
have you ever considered that the 'shura' concept in Islam is rather similiar to the 'parliament' concept in democracy....
In theory The hari and kisan is typically meant to 'elect' a suitable (knowledgeable/influential) representative to represent their interests to government.. im sure even you will grant that the 'lowly' 'illiterate' peasant has some idea of how to do this..
shafiq12
member
My Dears
Parliment
From the 1850s onwards, against a background of great new wealth in society and a working class that was more independent and resourceful, the 'problem of democracy' became urgent for the rich and powerful. In general wealth was rising throughout society, but so was the greed of those who owned the new factories, mines and plantations. The key question was: what was to be done about the general demand for democracy, and about the incessant clamour for political rights which, during the revolutions of 1848, had almost got completely out of hand?
Maintaining their privilege and wealth while generally conceding a semblance of democracy was the principal aim of the 'rich and privileged' during the second half of the 19th century. Parliament is a means of diffusing democracy, of channelling real struggles into a safe dead-end. Time and time again it has become a graveyard for the workers' movement.
shafiq12
member
The Antichrist will use Democracy which has produced the greatest forms of peace and prosperity the world has ever known, to rise to absolute power.
Democracy will allow the Antichrist to introduce the Mark of the Beast, which most of the population will gladly accept as a path to increased peace, prosperity and security. We will also learn that communism failed because of a lack of concern for money and we will consider how credit cards are a first step toward the coming cash less society.
toamin
member
gv/ajhons
if you have an experience of land purchase/sell in village area then you would know how clever those 'lowly' 'illiterate' peasant are :)
in fact they are masters of their field and have deep knowhow of their skills
gv
Member
@salam
i was being sarcastic...
ajhons
Member
Salam Bhai
By no means I was saying Hari and Kissan are not wise men.They definitly are.Who else know nature better then them.My point is the they are not wise enough to participate in global issues.Neither they are when comes the selection of wiser men.
Jamshaid Dasti is a prime example of this.
toamin
member
gv/ajhons
thanks for clarifications :)
NNL
member
To the Author of this Brilliant Thread and who has argued this topic of Democracy to an extent it deserves an standing ovation.
I m just curious to know one thing regarding one of your statement. In one of your post Shimatoree you said that "I would have a Hazrat Umar any day. And that is what the Muslims need. "
Shocked as i was to read this statement i m compelled to ask you the following (not to start a spat or useless banter but out of genuine curiosity) what made you think of Umar Radhi Allah Unhu. They say his rule was the most harshest, for them atleast. So what specific thing about him compelled you to say the above.
As for Khilafat believe you me the way these people are going about it, it will never happen. Again it will arise out of a kingdom and never from "democratic" Islamic state (an oxymoron in itself)
ajhons
Member
NNL BHAI can you explain what exactly you meant when you said
" They say his rule was the most harshest, for them atleast"
NNL
member
To a lot of people the rule of Umar Al-Khattab was the most harshest. They are usually the Christians and the Jews and a lot of Muslims who truly want to be like the Christians and the Jews.
They find Umar Radhi Allah Unhu's rule to be harsh.
I disagree with them.
shimatoree
Member
NNL
I am also curious as to HOW you picked up this very small comment I made about Hazrat Umar.
But to answer your question-
To me H. Umar represents everything that is good about the Islamic rule.
Strength of personality,
Character, Intellectual honesty, Legitimacy and Credibility.
I am 60 plus years old and have spend my life reading.
In my limited efforts at learning Leadership in history-
I have NOT found One leader yes NOT ONE who was as capable in every facet as a human being and as a leader.
He was NOT hesitant. He was daring.
In matter of principles he went full steam ahead
shimatoree
Member
NNL-
sorry I did not finish my comment on Hazrat Umar Farooq.
He had great intuition and an uncanny sense of the future.
In 10 years- he achieved what takes EMPIRES hundreds of years.
I can go on and on but suffice it to say, I will divulge one thing.
In everything- he is my HERO and has always been since I first read about him at the age of six.
I just wish we had had one or two more like him.
If that had happened- to-day we would not discussing these topics.
ajhons
Member
Dear Sir Shimatoree
In a lot of posts sometime I feel you are speaking my heart.The exact feelings I want to express I see in your words.I've no doubt that you have spend your good time of life in reading or in Good reading rather.
Would be honoured to have your exclusive posts on Hazarat Umer.Im a great admirer of this great leader of our history.
shimatoree
Member
ajohns
thank you.
shimatoree
Member
Salam
I think the topic -( or pseudo-topic) of Khilafat in Modern times ought to be discussed .
I do have my views which are somewhat HERETICAL and might generate more HEAT than throw light on the subject.
A better topic for discussion would be LEADERSHIP of the Muslims in Modern Times.
bublibangash
Member
considering the connection between the religion (islam ) and politics ( most probably Democratc form of governance )...... there are a number of fanatic and fundamentalistic religious Mullahs who think democracy as against the Islam.. Which is really not the case in actuallll,,,,,, Islam doesnt banned the concept of common consensus( which was practised in the times of khilafa too in the form of shura )...... until it might clashes with the Islamic and Quranic princples.......... we can have a system where people making laws for tehmselves ( democracy )under the jurisdiction of religious principles ( theocracy) exists.....
we need to understand that this is an age, which is no more suitable to be ruled by the Khilafat ( as mode of governance).. for we have more than 55 independent muslims countries each having the interests indiffernt frm each other....... and the idea of keeping them all under a centralized khilafat is no more pratically applicable ....... after having an assesment of todays's world... its necessities, we can conclude that the model of governance with a blend of democracy and theocracy is suitable to the needs of teh muslim states and also in line with the Islam........
@NNL
Umar bin Khattab was tuff. Was he off the track?
Shimatoree, I'm getting to understand your point a bit better. The Spartan genius Lysurgus, our second Caliph, Robespierre. All strong, daring men with an invincible sense of justice and a profound hatred o f corruption in any form. Yes, why not, if we could find one of our own in the same mould? I personally would follow any leader who'd give us justice, moderation, tolerance and austerity. I stick to my tolerance story because without it we, in our diversity, would be a very unhappy nation.
Now whether we got it through some form of democratic institution or in some other way, doesn't really seem to matter. So long as we didn't sink into military dictatorship because that form of governance lacks legitimacy and fails to satisfy even its own partisans.
@NNL
I still have a question for you brother. In case my post is again covered than what just follow my question.
I think we should worry more about strengthening democracy in Pakistan NOT worry about the whole Muslim world. Democracy is a system which is working successfully in many parts of the world. Democracy has brought peace, social stability, religious tolerance and stunning economic progress for Europe and America. Most of the European countries are Christian majority populations but they live side-by-side peacefully maintaining religious cohesion and tolerance.
Failed politicians do not like democracy as they cannot dictate/impose their views on majority of people. Then these failed politicians mostly moulvis will use name of religion to further their agenda. Majority of our moulvis believe democracy is haraam in Islam and God knows well what else. One of the like-minded persons personally told me democracy is a Kafir system because it is an American system of Government (well I reminded him England is the motherland of Democracy).
Now china is fast emerging as world's super power both economically and geopolitically. Majority of Chinese are Buddhists; will our Fasadi moulvis call for a jihad against China because of their religious beliefs of Buddhism?
shimatoree
Member
Mirza Sahib
I am told you are a teacher.
If that be true- then I just have on thing to say to you.
Your students are Lucky !
Keep up your decency and objectivity.
I am very happy that I was able to communicate my thoughts to a thoughtful and considerate human being.
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