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Can Pakistan Live Without United States Help?

(41 posts)
  1. toamin
    member

    It is time to blow the myth of Pakistani dependence on United States, economically and militarily.

    DR. SHIREEN M. MAZARI | Sunday | 13 March 2011 | Banned Column

    ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—Z. A. Bhutto wrote The Myth of Independence in the late sixties and it shaped my perspective on the Pakistan-US relationship. A return to the book shows its continuing relevance today since we find ourselves trapped again in the psychological grip of a unidimensional US-centric approach to external policy that Bhutto warned against.

    “American Policy To Bring Pakistan Under Indian Hegemony” goes the title of one chapter and it rings so true today. What has altered is that the stakes are more fatal because today our leaders are propagating a myth of dependency on the US that is literally deathly. It is preventing us from creating a favourable operational environment in which to tackle our home-grown demons of militancy and terrorism more effectively. Some “liberal” friends like Ayaz Amir have finally acknowledged and written about the need to delink ourselves of the failed US imperialist venture in Afghanistan.

    BUSTING THE MYTH: Pak Military

    However, we first need to rid ourselves of this myth of US dependency that some have been propagating to justify our seeming helplessness before Washington’s diktat. Not being an economist, my focus is on one part of the dependency syndrome – the military one.

    However, even as a layperson it is rather apparent that if some of our Pakistani elite can hold millions in property and bank accounts abroad, much of it ill-gotten, then there is sufficient national wealth and resource for development, if corruption was weeded out and the stolen wealth brought back. Again, if only those who should be paying taxes actually paid them, including our political and business elite plus all those professionals whose incomes are not taxed at source, we would generate national revenues. Also it is certainly time to rationalise the tax in the agricultural sector so that it is based on income rather than holdings.

    As for US aid, there is always a cost and when we are bandying about figures we should also look at the costs of the present alliance in terms of civilian and military deaths and injuries, displacement of people, markets lost and industries destroyed after we became a frontline state for the US-led “war on terror” which effectively has created increasing terror within Pakistan. One calculation for US aid from 1950 to 2010, is $ 22.87 billion, while losses to Pakistan for the same period have been calculated at $ 60 billion. Many economists have done far more extensive cost-benefit analyses – but don’t expect much from the set of economists presently running our affairs courtesy the IMF with their own vested US interests. The bottom line is that we have allowed ourselves to be dragged into a falsely created dependency on US aid, by vested interests, which has little to do with national needs such as greater access to markets.

    The situation is even more farcical in the military field. Much is being made of the Pakistan army general who has spoken in support of the drone attacks. But why the surprise? The US has always maintained that the Pakistan government, including the military, has been complicit in the drone policy from the start. As for this myth that our military is dependent on US assistance, this needs to be exposed. Since 1967, when the US cut off military supplies and spares to Pakistan formally, the Pakistan military has moved towards indigenous production as well as acquisition of major weapon systems from alternate sources. As a result, there is now not only an indigenous conventional capability, but also missile capability with the Hatf series now solid fuelled. The Army’s tanks, APCs and other conventional weapons have no US component. We got some helicopters during the Zia dictatorship, but then they had to be grounded when their sensitive rotors caught dust and US spares were not forthcoming. Now again we have some US weapons systems for the Army in support of the counter terrorism “war” but these are not essential for our offensive strategies. As for fighting terrorism, even the US is now reluctantly conceding that a military-centric approach is wrong and only creates more space for the militants.

    The PAF may feel it has a greater dependency on the US in terms of acquiring F-16s but here also we have developed alternatives with Chinese assistance such as the JF-17, the A5 (close support), F-7P (interceptor fighter) and the various Mirage 3 and 5 platforms, purchased from France and Australia but now totally updated with advanced Italian avionics packages. Certainly the F-16s add to the strength of the PAF but for decades we maintained a credible air force without US components. Also F-16s come at a high cost – both financial and political as we learned the last time we paid for F-16s but eventually got wheat and soya beans instead. Our air-launched cruise missiles also have no US dependency factor. As for the Navy, the main offensive weapon system is the submarine and the subs are French in origin but we are in the process of acquiring indigenous capability.

    Even in terms of training, given the disastrous record of the US in fighting asymmetric conflicts from Vietnam to Afghanistan, we hardly need their trainers.
    Also, unlike a domestic production industry which has hi-tech spin-offs for the civilian sector, importing US weaponry creates an artificial dependency with no local spin-offs. So why is this myth of military dependency being propagated? By vested interests including amongst the military and lobbyists and defence contractors.

    IT’S ALL PSYCHOLOGICAL

    If there is a dependency at all, it is a psychological one which is preventing us from extricating ourselves from the US deathly embrace. Bhutto referred not only to Pakistan’s first military dictator Ayub loyally stating to the US Congress (1961) that Pakistan was the only country in Asia where US forces “could land at any moment for the defence of the ‘free world’”; but also to the U2 incident where the US itself was being ambiguous but Ayub admitted that the aircraft took off from Pakistan! Are our military and civilian power holders any different today?

    This column was not published by Pakistan’s Express Tribune, presumably for criticizing United States.
    Reach Dr. Mazari at callstr@hotmail.com

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 6:25 #
  2. "To be an enemy of America can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal" -- Henry Kissinger

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 6:48 #
  3. scandinavian
    Member

    First of all shame one Pakistan's Express tribune for not publishing this article.

    I have said it before. Shireen Mazari is more brave than our generals and politicians!

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 8:47 #
  4. Dr Mazari has lightened this day for us by her peceptive account of the politico-psychological dependence of our rulers on the US. That benighted country has come to be Pakistan's favourite addiction. But do I feel the beginning of withdrawal symptoms in the air or is it still too early to tell?

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 9:11 #
  5. AoA All

    Question is not that whether Pakistan can live without US, it is whether US can live and survive without Pakistan.

    Yesterday Wendy Chamberlane the ex US Viceroy in Pakistan said that "Pakistan is America's Life line"

    Hellooooo any secular liberal US A$$ Licker out there !!!!

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 10:21 #
  6. Had been living w/o the U.S. before 9/11 so what seems to be the problem now? Even the mil procurement does not give a hoot anymore to the U.S. dependence.

    In Letters from Iwo Jima the Japs were slurpping down weed soup during WWII and Zulfi Bhutto said we would eat grass. So why not just tight the belts a bit and stop this rant about bringing back the stolen wealth, nothing is gonna come back. But fix the system that nothing gets stolen any further. Imran tola only finds the problems that everybody's aware of, but how about solutions on developing some skills to earn the money when IMF/US aid stops!

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 10:29 #
  7. scandinavian
    Member

    @FJ

    "Hellooooo any secular liberal US A$$ Licker out there !!!!"

    YES, in abundance in our parliament and GHQ :(

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 10:31 #
  8. "secular liberal US A$$ Licker "

    I think there is more than one oxymoron in there...:-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 11:17 #
  9. 1lhr
    Member

    i am most certain that Pakistan can easily live without US if not live much better (Help is a wrong word as we never received any from US). however i am not sure of the 2 other scenarios

    1. can US live without Pakistan's help?
    2. Can some 'selected Pakistanies' live without US help?

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 11:51 #
  10. BO hits the nail on the head. Let's develop our skills to part company with the IMF and generate our own income. Seems like a simple task, but implies a world of hard labour, starting with a return to some form of basic honesty.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 13:16 #
  11. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    Mirza Ghalib

    In correct terms, we can no longer live with the American aid. The American aid always costs us very heavily. The repercussions of the American aid are already so heavy to bear. Let us stop accepting the American henceforth.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 13:29 #
  12. oneUp
    Member

    excellent piece by Dr Mazari...it's our politicians and military that need US dollars

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 14:11 #
  13. HK, absolutely. Not one US cent on our soil any longer should become the policy of the land. Then we'll come into our own and begin to bloom.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 15:51 #
  14. quaidkamazaar
    Member

    ofcourse all of us can unanimously agree with this thought in this topic. we dont even need to debate.

    But will our politicians ever understand this? thats the real question.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 15:54 #
  15. bsobaid
    Member

    PAK-US relations are pindi-pentagon based.

    In short-term, no we cant survive without but in long-term we cant survive with external support. So we should without being dramatic and rhetorical come up with a economic plan of self-sustainence and in the mean time we should act like a acha bacha and listen to everything that daddy says and yes I say an ECONOMIC plan and not a JIHADI plan, if you know what I mean.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 15:55 #
  16. salaudin
    Member

    @BO

    Imran tola only finds the problems that everybody's aware of, but how about solutions on developing some skills to earn the money when IMF/US aid stops!

    IK has specified it many times in his interviews.
    Try paying attention to what IK is saying instead of thinking of coming up with new criticism.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 18:11 #
  17. Body Odor,

    Did you even read the article, she provided the solution in it as well. Read it again without the hate- Imran goggles.

    Salam,

    What is the source of this article?

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 18:26 #
  18. kulla
    Member

    Can pakistan afford to live with the same corrupt politicians? thats the question....

    I dont think its a matter of recieving aid from USA. Many countries have "bi-lateral" agreements...however pakistan has a unilateral agreement and thats the problem.

    If pakistan has honest politicians and army, then we can safe gaurd our interests (incl foreign policy and not financial policy) first, and then take it to the next level. Doesnt matter US,UK,India,EU whoever it is, we are living in flat world where isolation is no more feasable.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Mar 2011 19:55 #
  19. toamin
    member

    یہ جو رشوت حکمرانوں کو دیتے ہیں وہ حکمران ٹولہ چوری کر کے پھر انہی کے بنکوں میں رکھ دیتے ہیں یعنی اس ہاتھ دو اور اس ہاتھ لو

    اور جب یہ حکمران ناکارہ ہو جائیں تو پھر سب کھاتے ساتھ ہی ضبط ہو جاتے ہیں

    ہزاروں دن لگا کر مبارک اور بن علی نے چوری کی پر ایک ہی دن میں سب مال پھس گیا

    عوام کو تو صرف بجلی گیس آٹے چینی کی مہنگائی ہی ملتی ہے

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2011 8:12 #
  20. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    As most of the friends on this forum have expressed, we can't any longer with the costly American aid, but truly the problem is that our politicians can't live without costly American aid; since theeir cost of living is so high. They need bullet proof Mercedees, Prados and Lexuses,,etc. besides, large sized bungalows in DHA and Gulberg.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2011 9:04 #
  21. toamin
    member

    فاروقی صاحب

    میں کہتا ہوں کہ جتنا مرضی یہ کھا لیں، جتنی مرضی گاڑیاں لے لیں، جتنے مرضی گھر بنا لیں تو اتنا بیڑہ غرق نہیں ہوتا جتنا یہ مال باہر ہی دوسرے ملکوں میں چھپا لیتے ہیں

    آخر ایک انسان کتنا کھائے گا کوئی حد تو ہوتی ہے، پر باہر کے کھاتوں کی تو کوئی حد ہی نہیں، اربوں کھربوں غبن کے روپے چھپا کے بیٹھے ہیں، اپنے ملک میں ہی لگا دیں

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2011 9:11 #
  22. bsobaid
    Member

    bhai sahab, please dont drag politicians.

    US-PAK relations are based on GHQ-Pentagon relations.
    Kerry Lugar bill was the first attempt to establish the relations between whitehouse and islamabad but our establishment and their ghulams sabotage the effort.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2011 14:05 #
  23. aftab arif
    Member

    @ Hussain Farooqui

    Your comment has hit the nail on the head, it's not us(Pakistani People) who can't stay without American Aid but the ruling class.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2011 14:35 #
  24. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    bsobaid

    More correctly ruling class whether they are army top-brass or politicians need high rated commissions on the US aid.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2011 14:43 #
  25. jabalultariq
    Member

    We are hung up on US Aid , what about World Bank , literally all vital areas are in its stranglehold. Health, Comuunincation, Education etc the loans / grants are so badly managed AND its making our generations dependant on these loan sharks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Mar 2011 20:08 #
  26. sipahi
    Member

    Can Pakistan Live Without United States Help?

    Answer lies in answer to this question.

    Do Pakistanis have courage, character, strength, perseverance and willingness to tighten their belt and sacrifice everything in their life except essentials to survive?

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2011 3:42 #
  27. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    sipahi bhai,

    The common Pakistanis are already living in very incongruous conditions. They may be willing to live in worse conditions for a bright future of the nation. The problem lies with our ruling class whether the rulers are army generals or politicians. They can't sacrifice their perks and privileges.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2011 5:20 #
  28. shriq
    Member

    Agreed with the people who say:
    Pakistan can live without aid, Pakistani politicians and generals cant!!!

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2011 15:17 #
  29. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    Raavi

    Now the example is evident in Raymond's case. The poor heirs of Faheem were not ready for any agreemen, but the govt. needed American dollars, so an agreement was forced upon the poor heirs of the victims. Similar is the case with the Pakistani public. The poor public of Pakistani is not willing to accept the American dollars, but our rulers badly need money for their perks and privileges.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2011 15:41 #
  30. oneUp
    Member

    US aid is actually US AIDS. It's a fatal disease. Our elite has got contaminated with US AIDS throw them out.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2011 15:42 #
  31. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    oneUp

    Interesting and factual remark! The US aid is actually AIDS for any nation.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Mar 2011 15:51 #
  32. sipahi
    Member

    @ Hussain Farooqui,

    "The common Pakistanis are already living in very incongruous conditions. They may be willing to live in worse conditions for a bright future of the nation. The problem lies with our ruling class whether the rulers are army generals or politicians. They can't sacrifice their perks and privileges. "

    In my opinion, middle class of Pakistan is equally to be blamed, most of them will fail this test.

    Do Pakistanis have courage, character, strength, perseverance and willingness to tighten their belt and sacrifice everything in their life except essentials to survive?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 0:23 #
  33. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Hussain Farooqui: The real question that matters is;

    What does the common man of Pakistan plan to do about it ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 7:44 #
  34. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @quaidkamazaar: Wrong.

    The question is: What does the common man of Pakistan plan to do about it if the current lot of politicians does not "represent" the people's wishes in their;

    (1) decisions
    (2) actions

    at the collective (state) level ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 7:47 #
  35. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    My original post on this thread was deleted. Why ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 7:52 #
  36. quaidkamazaar
    Member

    @hariskhan,

    well, your question is well formed.
    but problem is, the answer to the question is very negative. the awaam are willing to do nothing about it. its pretty evident till now. so, we are all but left at the whims of politicians and secret deals.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 7:55 #
  37. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @quaidkamazaar: ..and what is the outcome of that decision at the collective level ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 7:57 #
  38. toamin
    member

    haris khan

    what happened to your length??

    good.. keep it short, concise and too the point!

    same rule applies on "domestic policy" as well ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 8:00 #
  39. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    The common people of Pakistan have been living in abject poverty since the time of independence. Has the American aid improved their conditions or worsen them?

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Mar 2011 16:24 #
  40. shriq
    Member

    "good.. keep it short, concise and too the point!"

    Keep it short!!
    Keep it within limits!!

    Jitni chadar utne pair....
    Sabr...
    adhi pe guzara...
    Rukhi sukhi kha kr....

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2011 15:43 #
  41. @Imran Tola

    Yeah sure, dumbsheet Shiri Mazari would your economic minister.

    There is one thing really unique about PTI. Their leaders and supporters are exactly alike in thoughts in all walks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Mar 2011 17:48 #

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