We commonly see threads on many forums that Capitalism is evil, and it is dead. And none of these people provide any alternative to capitalism. In fact the moderator of this site believes the same. But my job is to present the other side. Their favourite topic is the recent meltdown, and how American financial system is collapsing. Last time I checked all the banks that borrowed money from the government, have returned it with interest and are now making profit. But I don’t see any anti-capitalist talking about this, as they usually ignore all the things that go against their argument. The truth is Capitalism is the best economic system in the existing world.
The very fact is Capitalism has produced the highest standard of living the world has ever seen. Even the poor in capitalist countries have access to basic necessities. 90% of the people in capitalist countries are neither rich nor poor, they are middle class.
If somebody is creative, and has an extremely cool idea to solve a certain problem, then he or she should be given the opportunity to market it and make a business out of it. Capitalism rewards hard work. It gives people second chances.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, then Pakistan is neither capitalist nor a socialist country because Pakistanis don’t really know what they are? we are confused people.
PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues
Capitalism is good
(126 posts)-
Shock
MembersPosted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 21:00 # -
Shock
Members@Mirza Ghalib
BTW mirza, why Pakistanis don't then go to Cuba, instead of U.S/Canada or Europe? I am just curious.Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 21:01 # -
Shock
MembersThe poor in communist countries die of hunger.
If you say capitalism isn't fair, please tell me how fair it is for someone to spend a half of their life going to school and then have to live in the same way as someone who decided they didn't want to do anything and bum around.Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 21:08 # -
Shock
Members@mirza
BTW, MR.Mirza you can get shot in Cuba for making fun of the government. And how come thousands of Cubans swim to florida every year?
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 21:11 # -
Shock, so here I am. But you ask too many questions all at once, and not all of them can be answered by someone of limited intelligence like myself.
For instance, why Pakistanis don't go to Cuba instead of the West, is something I can't really answer. Ignorance, probably on the part of my countrymen. How often do they hear anything good about Cuba in their daily lives?
The poor die in communist countries has already been answered elsewhere.
Getting shot in Cuba is one of those propaganda ploys. Now you answer one of my questions: Do you know how many people have been assassinated in Western countries for questioning 9/11, etc., the deaths each time being passed off as accidents or suicides? Just one example of note: Robin Cook who died quite unexpectedly while on a walking trip five days after he said publically that al-Qaida didn't exist and was an invention of the CIA?
Now about capitalism: Good it gave a life of prosperity to a handful of people (people living in Western countries = 10% of the world's population) while keeping the rest of the world in advanced states of poverty. Think of the African continent. Think of our own Asia. We'll leave SouthAm out of the discussion for the moment.
Every trick in the book of scam was used to keep us poor. They had the money monopoly. Their institutions ruled the world: UN, IMF, World Bank, WHO, etc, etc. Their rating agencies decided what our currency was worth. They stole our natural resources to their heart's content, designated our leaders, played havoc with our local economies. One example: EU dumped its excess agricultural produce, such as potatoes, on markets such as Cameroon, killing any competition on the part of local farmers. And while on the subject of farmers, their crazy genetically modified seeds (Monsanto) has brought disaster to many countries. Neighbouring India is a case in point where farmers have been forced to commit suicide for years to escape bankruptcy and starvation.
All this while: they printed fiat money. They set up a welfare system which made one OOH and AHH. But on non-existent money. And then they went too far. And now they've been found out. And the end is nigh.
Sorry, I can't agree with your love for immoral capitalism, but I do agree with your last sentence: We Pakistanis are confused people.
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 21:49 # -
Shock
Members@Mirza Ghalib
how about we just talk about what we know to be true, such as the number of people that come to america illegally every year from cuba seeking refuge. How about you go and visit cuba and see for yourself.I'm not here to debate whether 9/11 was caused by the US government, i'm here in support of the capitalist system.
since you are so **** crazy, why is this site still up then?
http://www.911truth.org/Why doesn't the government shut it down? You are an idiot.
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 21:57 # -
Shock
Members"Now about capitalism: Good it gave a life of prosperity to a handful of people (people living in Western countries = 10% of the world's population) while keeping the rest of the world in advanced states of poverty. Think of the African continent. Think of our own Asia. We'll leave SouthAm out of the discussion for the moment."
Okay since the USSR had such a great life for its citizens, I am tired of people saying the western countries stole the wealth from poor countries or exploited them.
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 21:59 # -
Shock
MembersMost of those countries have their own problems that they must face before they become developed. Government plays a huge role in this, they must be stable, and crime must be under control or capitalism cant work and neither can anything else.
Lets talk about India or China
they have developed so far because of trade with the United States, and China is becoming more and more capitalist
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 22:02 # -
Shock
Members"Every trick in the book of scam was used to keep us poor. They had the money monopoly. Their institutions ruled the world: UN, IMF, World Bank, WHO, etc, etc. Their rating agencies decided wha........"
Ratings agencies dont decide currency value, economic stability of the country and trade decide it.
How about the middle east, they had oil before, they didnt take it out themselves
a western country had to come in and help them take it out
now they are developing so fast
and the western countries actually pay for these things
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 22:03 # -
Listen, Shock, I don't see what interest there can be in talking to an "idiot" as you so kindly called me. I'm sure there are others on this blog who would be glad to give their opinions here. Right or wrong, I've had my say.
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 22:06 # -
Shock
Members@Mirza Ghalib
That is right, I just owned you communist a$$. If you werent so busy reading and believing crazy conspiracy theories, you might have spent your time bettering your life through hard work.
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 22:09 # -
@Shock
You are an idiot.
I just owned you communist a$$.
-------------------------------Gross voilation of COC by using the kind of language you have used against a respectable member of the forum.
You are being WARNED. Your posts will be moderated.
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 9:51 # -
Thank you, Moderator. Kind of you to come to my defence.
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 10:34 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Shock: You are one of the biggest liars :-). You continue with your reputation of staging massive lies in public.
Capitalism has failed miserably. It has been so bad, that;
(1) USA's entire economic system has crashed more than 3 times within the last 100 years alone
(2) in many families in USA children have been left without a father to take care of them
(3) etc etc
You want us/Muslims to adapt a financial system that has crashed more than 3 times within a century ? Have you gone mad ?
The financial system given by Islam allowed Muslims to run their economies without! any problems for over 800 years, without a single crash.
It took enemies of Muslims 400! years to defeat Muslim states. And that happened because Muslims sidelined or abandoned Islam, not because Islam was wrong or flawed.
Islam gives 'Zakaat' system, which alone will completely! eradicate poverty from the face of the earth.
There are so many facts, so much evidence to prove your one of the biggest liars :-)
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 13:26 # -
achtung
Memberharis bhai
aap ney kahaIslam gives 'Zakaat' system, which alone will completely! eradicate poverty from the face of the earth
pakistan mei zakaat system raej hy. gen zia ney yeh system raeej karte hue kaha tha keh abb pakistan mei dainey waley bohat hoon gey laikin leneywala koi nahee hoga. laikin nateeja kia nikla, iss key bawajood keh zabardasti bhi zakaat kati jaati hy.
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 13:47 # -
@hariskhan
@Shock: You are one of the biggest liars :-). You continue with your reputation of staging massive lies in public.Repeated violation of COC. This is the third and final Warning to you. Kindly refrain from using such language labeling members as liars.
Reason with logic if you may or else move on.Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 17:40 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Mirza sb.: Noted.
P.S. I wish we had the precious thing called 'freedom'.
@achtung: Do you think the Zakaat system was implemented in or after Zia'a period ?
(1) Do you have any stats on how it has been performing if it was in-fact implemented ?
(2) Can you show me how it helped the millions of people of this nation in Zia's period or since his era till to-date ?
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 17:59 # -
zalaan
BlockedThere are promises on Zakat like Barakah and increase of wealth and reward in akhrat for the individuals who gives the Zakat .But there is no such thing in Quran-o-Hadeeth that there will not be any poor if every one pay the Zakaat .
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:11 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Mirza sb. I quote, from the original message of the thread;
Last time I checked all the banks that borrowed money from the government, have returned it with interest and are now making profit.
By saying this Mr. 'Shock' here is implying that USA's private Jews/Zionist owned banks have returned the money that they extorted from US Govt.
I don't believe this is true. American banks haven't given even a dime back to US Govt. In-fact they are continuing to extort more and more from USA's Govt.
Is this not true ?
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:13 # -
gv
Memberhere haris
read this
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-04-14-tarp-repay-bank-bailout_N.htm
then go do your own research for the others
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:21 # -
Hariskhan, you are perfectly right. The US banks, along with the European ones, have all benefited from so-called bailouts from their respective governments (fiat government money and taxpayer money).
And now, in US in any case, that money is being increased by offering them "tax rebates" and perhaps even a second-round of bailouts. But Shock Sahib was in no mood to listen to anyone. He just wanted to listen to his own voice repeating the same mantra about the beauties of capitalism.
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:23 # -
Hariskhan may have been right according to his own views. However his expression was found to be rude and unethical. Use of curse words remains unjustified.
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:32 # -
gv
Member@semirza
mirza sahib aap ne to sara maza kharab kar diya hamaray haris ko ban kar ke..
@all
The issue is that all the anti democracy and anti capitalism supporters are not understanding the crux of each of these concepts.
Capitalism is essentially an economic system where market forces (i.e. Supply & Demand) are used to determine the prices and availability of goods and services in an economy. (the opposite end of the spectrum is communism where the state (government) sets prices and determines the availability of goods and services
Democracy is a political system where the government of a society is elected by popular vote. The other extreme is an absolute monarchy where the general public has no say in government.
Capitalism and democracy have many forms. some of which many of you are clearly offended by..have you ever considered that you can use these base concepts and engineer a variant that you would consider workable?
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:34 # -
Dear gv
you said
"Capitalism is essentially an economic system where market forces (i.e. Supply & Demand) are used to determine the prices and availability of goods and services in an economy."
I would respectfully disagree with your explanation. It is rather simplistic. There is a main philoshpy behind every economic system. The capitalist system's main philosphy is that there are limited resources and unlimited needs and only way to fulfil these needs is to increase the production. It does not address the problem of fair distribution of resources. It encourages the accumulation of resources, it encourages greed, it encourages monopoly, it encourages exploitation of people and resources. Just have a look in africa how capitalism not only exploited people but took away their dignity as well.
Capitalism sees things (material object, food, etc) from the point of view of the price and not the innate and intrinsic VALUE in them. If the price is not acceptable, it does not hesitate to throw away mountains of wheet, butter into sea. If the price is not favourable, it does not care to throw away millions of litres of milk into sea. It does not give two hoots about millions of hungry people and needy people in the world.
So please dont paint a rosy picture of capitalism as this is entirely agaisnt the ground reality and absolutely false impression created by you.
FJ
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 19:05 # -
gv
Member@fj
see below re your post above:
1) The capitalist system's main philosphy is that there are limited resources and unlimited needs - CORRECT
2)and only way to fulfil these needs is to increase the production. FALSE this is a school of thought within classical liberal economics not a basic tenet of capitalism
3) It encourages the accumulation of resources, it encourages greed, it encourages monopoly, it encourages exploitation of people and resources. - This is true in as much as this how capitalism has played itself out over the past century or so... but please keep in mind that classical economists such as adam smith depicted the perfect economy as composed of a very large numbers of market players (buyers and sellers of products and services) which would prevent monopolies, exploitation of people and resources and hoarding
4) Capitalism sees things (material object, food, etc) from the point of view of the price and not the innate and intrinsic VALUE in them. - TRUE but again i would say this is a controllable aspect of capitalism
i am not saying capitalism is the perfect solution - i am saying it is the best available solution (that is as per my basic definition)
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 20:41 # -
Dear gv
Please read the book shock doctrine by naomi Klein to see the theory, practice and real ugly face of capitalism.
FJ
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 7:57 # -
gv
Also when you argue against islamic system, you arguements are based on the notion that these (islamic) are theoretical concepts and may be good on paper but they are not practical or practical manifestation is different so unacceptable.
Now why is that when comes to secularism, democracy, capitalism etc you always hide behind the theory and the definitions and always shy away from the PRACTICAL UGLY MANIFESTATION of these beasts. beats me !!!!!!!
FJ
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 8:01 # -
gv
Member@FJ
when did i argue against 'islamic system' ?????
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 9:54 # -
The emerging Economic System would be a combination and a balanced blend of Capitalism, Communism, Socialism and other evolutionary outcome of previous regional experimentation.
The existing dominating Capitalism is a refined perpetuation and a syntheses of centuries old economic system starting from Roman Empire.
The Economic System keeps on evolving according to resources and social demands which is always a step forward heading towards improvements.Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 13:38 # -
gv
Member@javed sahib
i concur with your analysis
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 13:43 # -
Capitalism is good? Let us agree on just one condition and that is Capitalism minus usury/interest; NOT POSSIBLE.
This remains the biggest pain because without usury capitalism is nothing.
Muslims have to get rid of this 'soodi nizam' coming up with a counter action to negate this invented and implemented filth that is nothing else than greed and only greed.
No other tool could be effective to enslave the whole global polulation but usury.
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 16:07 # -
Today's capitalism dont dipict true picture of capitalism because true face of capitalism has gone since great dipration in 1929-35 when their was no control of Govt. in the economy but then J.M.Keynes introduce his idea that their should be some control of Govt. in the economy and he further explain that the reason for great dipration was not focusing on aggregate demand and since the Govt. role is introduce in capitalist economy this system has changed itself now USA economy is mix market economy while capitalism is about market economy....So now no country in the world is capitalist now and also no country in the world is communist now every country have changed to mix market economy while capitalism is pure market economy and communism is pure planned economy....
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 16:12 # -
Not only Muslims but whole of the World needs a change on economic system.
Soody Nizam is criminal only if it is not proportionate to a logical permission to profit.
It is bad if used for exploitation, but beneficial if it is for the motives to help.
Still there has been no break thorough to replace the existing Capitalistic Economic System.
The great economists in the West and the East are already working to improve upon this System to make it more effective and acceptable.
Human nature would reject the concept of an investment without any incentive for gain and growth of the principal.Industry cannot flourish just for the sake of charity.
All the workers would go out of job, where the production of the factory is sold just at the manufacturing cost.
Could we hire an employee without salary?Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 16:37 # -
Mirza Sahib
Sood nahin to capitalism bhi nahin. Yeh nizam to der haqiqat hamain deen sey dur our haramkhori ka ghulam bananein ka aik silsala nazer aata hai.Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 16:40 # -
gv
MemberMirza sahib,
what about javed sahib's statement here:
"Soody Nizam is criminal only if it is not proportionate to a logical permission to profit."
don't you think that makes sense?
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 16:48 # -
Capitalism is not just about "Interest" its actually about free market, market economy, no Govt. control etc...just like old times when their was no State control on economy and blacksmith, carpenter and others use to do their jobs in a city and after Industrial era when shape of economic changed then the shape of capitalism also changed capitalism it was actually in USA based Bank owners who introduce "Central Bank" due to which Interest was implemented in the system while before that interest was not their in the macroeconomy while it was their in microeconomic level....
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 16:51 # -
Soody nizam is criminal only if it is not proportionate only to logical permission to profit.
Suits non Muslims because interest and profit are clearly defined through guideline for Muslims.
Mirza Sahib said it nicely. For a Muslim sood is just like filth meaning it is totally haram. Non Muslims have their own justifications.
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:02 # -
gv
Member@patriot
interest is profit - there is no difference
interest is the profit earned from lending money
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:04 # -
My dear gv interest for us Muslims is sood and that is haram meaning forbidden.
Profit is profit not earned from lending money.
Bhai aap nain to sood khor baniey our aik halal kamai ka talabghar musalman main koi fark nahi rakha.
Anyway I do not agree with your thought on this subject. I hope you wont mind.Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:15 # -
Would some one let me know how Hazrat Osman, (RAZ), the third out of pious Caliphs, was running his vast business?
I guess this could help to understand the Economic System, people are looking for at the forum.
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:17 # -
gv
Member@patriot
i don't mind that you don't agree. I'm just trying to figure out your and mirza sahibs rationale.
Profit is allowed in business but interest is not ? isn't that a bit irrational?
In my opinion the injunction against sood is against extreme rates of interest practiced throughout history.
If an investor earns 5% profit by buying and selling equity in a company or 5% via a cash loan to the same company can you give me a rational argument as to why the first instance is morally superior to the second?
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:20 # -
@Patriot
First of all dont just keep it calling interest because in interest their is also a portion of time value of money and inflation is also involve in interest as our currency is devaluing so the extra earning from bank which you are calling interest have a large or whole portion of the amount of devaluation of currency.....just take an example of gold that I have bought gold for $1000 two years ago but then today the same amount of gold which I bought 2 years ago becomes $1200 so the value increased but amount remain same while in currency 2 years ago 1$ was equal to RS60 but now due to devaluation it becomes RS86 so my RS1000 2 years ago now worth lower then today's worth of my RS1000....
So we cant ignore the reaction of inflation in interest that we earn...
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:27 # -
My dear friend Yahya.
There is no point in dragging this issue as we very clearly know that sood is forbidden for us.Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:29 # -
gv
Member@patriot
don't you think its important to understand why something is forbidden?
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:30 # -
@Patriot
Sir even I also believe that Interest/Sood/Ribba is Haram but it doesnt mean that Banks are all about Interest/Sood/Ribba only their are many things that required understanding before blindly declaring it Haram....Now what do you think about Islamic banking????what are they offering????
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 17:32 # -
Shock
MembersOkay, since nobody could come up with a response to any of my quarries, they now started another discussion of interest. First of all, under capitalist system, nobody is forcing interest upon anybody. Nobody stops you to start a bank that doesn't take or give interest. It is completely logical, that if you borrow a loan, and you don't pay that back on time, then you should pay some penalty on it.
In Canada:
- There is no interest if you borrow loan for education purpose.
- There is no interest, if you pay 35% of your mortgage on your house or car.
- Healthcare is free, so nobody needs to borrow a loan for an expensive treatment.We shouldn't care what religous lobby thinks of Capitalist system, they will always complain. If we pay attention to them, then we would never move forward or make any significant progress.
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 18:16 # -
toamin
membersoody nizam is beneficial if the motive is for help says learned scholar JS sahib-
soody nizam or agreement or deal is clearly prohibited by Allah swt, how can that be beneficial for a muslim?
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 18:52 # -
toamin
membermr shock
capitalism fails to address poverty and hunger, it suggest inflation and unemployment (to some extent) are good for economy-
there are flaws at the core principle of this belief system
thx
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 18:55 # -
Shock
Members@Salam
Yeah, and that is why 90% of the people in capitalist countries belong to the middle class, and have one of the highest standard of living. Millions of people in India, and China are being lifted out of poverty due to this very capitalism. Since the system you guys propose, have failed miserably, so the reaction from you is to reject and complain about everything.
Internet, softwares etc are the very product of capitalism, which you are using to post anti-capitalist comments.
BTW, Islam supports capitalism. The only difference is on interest. Help the poor, who want to help themselves.
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 19:15 # -
1. Why Allah prohibited something for the Muslim?
This discussion is to qualify and understand that reason.2. Is a Muslim biologically different to a Non-Muslim?
3. Would some one let me know how Hazrat Osman, (RAZ), the third out of pious Caliphs, was running his vast business?
Posted 2 years ago on 29 Mar 2010 19:36 #
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