PKPolitics Discuss » Social and Cultural Issues

Corruption in our society

(27 posts)
  1. Fahim23
    Member

    Dear all, AOA

    Is our society really corrupt to its core?
    =========================================================

    If you are living in cities you must have seen many in Pakistan complaining about how corrupt our country is and expressing thr utter disappoinment, frustration and sort of "given up" attitude towards the future of thr own country. Yes, we have certain problems including corruption, but i think we exaggerate things a bit too much. Most of pakistanis live in rural society and thy r involved with agriculture, pottery, fishermen, small carpenter, cobblers etc. And they are not corrupt! They eat and earn Halal (unless they have to deal with thana kachehri which is corrupt even in rural araes). It is only so called "Educated" society in bureocracy who is suffering frm this mennace of corruption, favoritism, nepotism, inferiority complex, lack of identity etc.

    In cities the people who are involved with middle and lower level management of private firms, thr is very small corruption. At the top level in order to get government sections, approvals or tenders the firm owners have to deal with bribe tec but they don't allow thr employees for sure to be involved with corruption. The people who work on daily wages in factories don't have many avenues to be corrupt. Or the mazdoors, rehri wala, small owners of convinient stores, dry cleaners, darzi, are not seriously corrupt!

    Most of us don't know that until late 1980's our politicians were not financially corrupt! Liaquat alo khan, Muhammad ali bogra, Hussain shaheed suharwardy, Ayub Khan, Iskander mirza, Ghullam muhammad or Zulfikar Ali bhutto were never charged with corruption. They had many other problems but politics was not for making money.

    So, where is corruption staming from that bothers us?
    ===========================================================

    I think following are the most corrupt areas of Pakistan

    1- Bureaocracy: If you go in any sacraitariat, education department of govt(boards including), health departments, etc they won't talk to you until u show thm Quaid-e-Azam!

    2- Public-service department: Like wapda, railway, Sui gas, they are really corrupt to the core.

    3- Polics stations and Courts: I won't be exaggerating if I say they work on "Rules of Jungle" or even worst thn that. Policemen are fathers of iblees, Judges are sallable, and lawyers are liers. They don't do much corruption in terms of quantity like Establishment does but they directly suck the blood of common people that's why i have labled thm as above.

    4- Establishment: which include Political leaders/ARMY generals/Industrialist/Feudal lords, most of thm today are involved with corruption.

    5- Doodh wala: This is odd entry but I'm sure you will all agree these guys are corrupt!

    6- Doctors and Medical Stores: Well its not any professional jealousy as I myself am an engineer but really the fees that you guys charge, (at least 500 Rs for 15 min + 1000 Rs xtra for medicines) is too much. You are next to Policeman and courts of Pakistan as far as direct blood sucking of awam is concerned. As far as engineers go the roads we make last until thr first rain, buildings stand until thr is an earthquake and providing you electronics goods and telecommunication makes us really noble thn you! Medical strores get thr inspiration from you guys and owners of pharmaceutical industries.

    How to bring change and get rid of this?
    ============================================================

    It is said in Pakistan that being educated means a person without balls because education bring certain sophistication, culture and sensitivities in your personality and eventually making you timid. It has become a common phrase in our society that, "yar hum sharif log hum badmashon say panga kion lain?" I think we give in so easily to be exploited by others, and have already made our minds that ok if some one is asking for bribe we have to pay him/her, otherwise we won't get our work done alternatively we must have support of some "Big hand" for getting our things fone. The most educated city of Pakistan is karachi and every body who lives thr first came under the dada-giri of JI and thn the worst dadagiri along with all terrorist activities of MQM!

    Most of us fear that, if we didn't pay bribe our works wont get done or our works will get delayed and why shud WE bother to resist and bring change in society so we end up deciding to pay illegal few bucks for our legal things. Unfortunately this pattern is widespread and consistent in our society and shows how selfish we are by not realising that we are actually being part of promoting this curse in our society. Thn the only way thr remains for changing our society is by "miracle" and that's wat we all expect...a miracle to happen!

    Only if we at individual level start resisting at first, by threatning to launch a complaint if he is asking for bribe etc thn slowly things will start change. Believe me such threat works more thn 50% of times!

    I would appreciate other views on this topic.

    Thanks for reading.

    Regards
    Fahim

    Posted 3 years ago on 22 Jan 2009 4:07 #
  2. I dont think you have ever been to an actual village the stereotypical innocent farmer and fishermen you talk of dont exist in real life. I was going to my land in central punjab and this little boy who saw our cars coming started riding his khota in front of us at full speed. later I found out he had thought we were wapda and was rushing to tell the people to pull their "kundas" from the power line.I dont know if the shareef lassi drinking jatt ever existed outside of fiction ,the ones I have seen drink 10 cups of tapal a day and are shrewd then most city folk

    also being pragmatic no law abiding society was ever built on people with high moral values showing personal restraint which is another thing of fiction only. you always need a corruption free government, free judiciary, free media and strong law enforcement .your ideas themself are not bad but they are naive and impractical

    Posted 3 years ago on 22 Jan 2009 6:33 #
  3. when we have the most widely known corrupt as the head of the state ...
    than what else left here to be worried about?

    Posted 3 years ago on 22 Jan 2009 6:50 #
  4. Fahim23
    Member

    @Codefreaq

    I originally belong to a small village in district Dadu. Whenever I go to my village, my experiences are totally different thn urs. They show me great hospitability, kindness and honor. There are problems and certainly they are not angels, but They surely earn and work hard in thr fields, shops, and other places to eat!

    What I was trying to point out that when most of us has already given up and simply waiting for the Return of ZAB, rise of IK, revealation of Imam mehdi, or some scholars even want to lease this country to America and Canada to create a free govt, judiciary, media etc thn the chances of getting leadership to do that becomes ever grim and I'm afraid the desire of being gifted with a leader is Childish. On the other hand, if we create a society where quite a number of ppl r seen fighting for thr rights and justice the chances of producing a sincere leader frm our amidst rapidly increases. One good action can inspire thousands mind.

    In Quran, ALLAH Saeen says that until and unless the nation does not want to change herself, we don't change its fate. Please note the word nation not the individuals. There were great examplary leaders like Noah, Jesus, david etc who apparently failed because thr nation was not willing to change! Every individual is required to resist injustices according to his/her capacity! Only thn thr will be good chances to get good leaders which create good governance, allow free media and appoint fair judges.

    Some scholar (i guess secular_pak) at this forum pointed out that "if we make Naom chowmsky, Mother tereesa, Edhi our leader, thn will the poverty, unemployment and other problems will be solved"???

    Expecting from a single personality (leader) to change the fate of nation? Or expecting from the nation to change its fate? Which sounds more naive???

    cheers

    Posted 3 years ago on 22 Jan 2009 19:08 #
  5. @ My dear Beena,
    The virus of corruption didn't erupt with the emergence of Zardari.
    Pakistan is suffering from this problem since 1947 and before that.
    Even the Qauid-i-Azam acknowledged that he had fake coins in his pocket.
    Just read the history how the Pakistanis captured the left over properties of non-Muslims after partition?
    I guess a majority of Pakistanis being the descendants of the foreign corrupt invaders such as Khiljis, Sooris, Lodhis, Tughliqs, Gauris and Moghals, is genetically corrupt.
    Even the lessons on morality could not make any change for better.

    Posted 3 years ago on 22 Jan 2009 19:38 #
  6. Fahim23
    Member

    @JS Sb

    Even if lessons on marality could not make any change for better? Then wat is it that we require to do? Please correct me if I'm wrong, since some time you are sounding too pessimist contrary to ur earlier impression on me.

    I'd also beg to differ that Corruption or immorality is genetically transfered. Shaitan k ghar men bhi wali peda hotay hen, aur waleyun k ghar men fasadi.

    Regards

    Posted 3 years ago on 22 Jan 2009 22:34 #
  7. My dear Fahim23,
    1. Corruption is generated and flourishes in a culture, which lacks the Rule of Law.
    2. Indo-Pak sub-continent mostly remained a victim of expansionism by the foreign invaders, who failed to infuse the sense of obedience to Law.
    The subjects were motivated to obey the will of the Ruler, who himself were the product of tyranny.
    The good will of the ruler was a guarantee of safety.
    3. The British Administration, mostly contributed to the development of the regions, now part of India.
    A major portion of Pakistan, with the exception of Lahore and Karachi, was left open and un-developed to fill the positions for military services.
    4. The feudal lords of Pakistan also helped to promote the culture of corruption to defend and protect their status.
    5. Military Dictators not only violated the Rule of Law but also damaged and crushed the sanctity of the Constitution.
    6. Civil Administration has been indirectly encouraged to become corrupt and the boss overlooks bribery, as he himself is a shareholder.
    7. Nepotism, poor economy, unfair distribution of resources and so many such factors helped to make corruption acceptable as way of life and survival.
    8. Yes. I agree. A Shaitan can give birth to a Wali. Such miracles are very rare in history. There are also chances that Wali could be killed or eliminated in a society dominatred by corruption where # 2 is rule of the game.

    Posted 3 years ago on 22 Jan 2009 23:38 #
  8. Fahim23
    Member

    @JS Sb

    I agree corruption flourishes in an atmosphere where there is no rule of law. And most of the reasons you have presented have truly contributed in creating an environment of nepotism/corruption. Every fertile land in the world has been invaded numerous times and the people of land were oppressed thn wats especial happent with us tht moral lessons or education too aint gng to work on us?.

    I would appreciate if you can answer following questions based on your experience and knowledge?

    1.India too has problems of corruption i can't say it is much serious thn us or minor but they r progressing!. We on the other hand take one step forward and two step backwards. Ironically Pakistan army used to be considered as least corrupt institution of Pakistan, thn why it has caused severest damage to the country?

    2. In your opinion our common man (living in rural and urban society) really corrupt to its core? Or the corruption is exclusively running in the blood veins of elite and upper middle class society?

    3. Can s/he change his attitude towards corruption?

    4. From where the efforts should be initiated to reduce corruption? Is it supposed to be initiated from top level (i.e., leadership) or individuals have to play thr part?

    5. What are the remedies/foot steps for reducing corruption?

    6. Transformation is an ON/OFF procedure or it is tiresome elongated process? In other words how long it should take us to transform our society?

    Thanks

    Posted 3 years ago on 23 Jan 2009 1:36 #
  9. "I guess a majority of Pakistanis being the descendants of the foreign corrupt invaders such as Khiljis, Sooris, Lodhis, Tughliqs, Gauris and Moghals, is genetically corrupt"

    even if there was a gene for corruption places like australia and america would be the most criminal today because this is where the most corrupt and blood thirsty british ended up

    something everyone should think about,why do people from subcontinent and very corrupt african countries go to america and instantly become law abaiding citizens? is it because they are suddenly impressed by the high morals and accept them for themselves or because they know the police wont take any BS from them and the judge will instantly deport or imprison them

    the problem isnt really as complex as you people are making it.there is no need for genetic engeneering or morality schools, a functiong judiciary and police dept will suffice

    Posted 3 years ago on 23 Jan 2009 1:38 #
  10. 1. Pakistan needs the implementation of strict hiring and firing rules and regulations at all levels.
    2. No sermons, preaching, appeals or lectures on morality could help to control or minimize the cancer of corruption.
    (I know a person who preached honesty but sold a combination of Vanspati Dalda with a label of Desi Ghee.)
    3. Three documentations about the efficiency of a public servant and then good-bye, if his performance is not satisfactory..
    4. Corruption starts with asking for extra help/ money/ favor for the performance of duty, for which an officer is paid for through the public funds..
    It could be defined as selling the authority for a service.
    5. Most of the Civil Servants behave like Commission Agents. Starting from clerk to the big boss, they run their department on commercial bases like a Super Store.
    6. Previously, by Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan, 1300 and 313 civil servants were removes from their jobs but that was mostly due to political rivalry and not corruption.
    7. Pakistan, right now needs the principle of Check and Balance. The employees should be hired on the bases of efficiency and firing due to in-efficiency and corruption..
    Their should be no discrimination who ever he/she might be, a Peon, or a Chief Secretary, a Foot Constable or an I.G.
    8. The principle of Survival of the Fittest could help to improve the situation.

    Posted 3 years ago on 23 Jan 2009 2:22 #
  11. @Dear Shiekh Sahib,
    i totally agree with u that the Zardari era is not the start of corruption.
    it is the hieght of corruption.indeed.

    Jaisay Tum Khud Hu Gay ,Waisay Tum Pe Hukumraan Mussallat Kiye Jayein Gay.Hazrat Muhammad (SAW)
    i agree that our prophet was totally right in predicting this deadly ruling era for us the muslims.

    muslims all over the world has lost thier own heritage of sincereity,honesty and dignity of labour.
    almost all the muslim countries are facing huge corruption specially Pakistan.

    a vegetable seller is selling rotton tomatos.
    a clerk is taking bribe.
    a doctor is taking medical reps favors to recommend their medicines.
    a beaurocrat is enjoying commissions .
    a cricketer is interested in match fixing.
    a ruler is selling ppl of his own nation in order to be in the good book of US.

    we are all corrupt.
    and this is our punishment to have Zardari as our ruler.

    Posted 3 years ago on 23 Jan 2009 6:09 #
  12. larki
    Blocked

    lynch them in public or shoot them in a maidan. it may sound harsh but thats the only lingo we understand.

    Posted 3 years ago on 23 Jan 2009 7:31 #
  13. Fahim23
    Member

    @JS Sb

    "Pakistan needs the implementation of strict hiring and firing rules and regulations at all levels."

    Who will be behind implementing such system where strict hirings and firings are the rules of business. People needs motivation to adopt/accept/or change things. The motivation comes either if morality is evoked or such situation is created where it is in the intrest of a person to adopt fair policies.

    For example, in most private firms as compared to government the corruption level is significantly low. They do adopt hiring and firing principles in thr organization at least at the middle and lower management. They don't do it because of morality but they are motivated by "profit and efficiency".

    But not everything can be privatised and it is impossible to create an envioronment where good is in the intrest of an individual, we need to evoke morality into humans to make sure that even at personal levels the individual prefer the intrest of others not just his/her own. And the most effective tools of morality is education (that includes sermons, preaching, teaching, discussions etc).

    The principle of survival of the fittest can be dangerous, especially when the morality is absent from human foundations. The strongest will crush the weaker ones. I guess this is the dilemma and therefore good people are required to be stronger!

    Posted 3 years ago on 24 Jan 2009 18:46 #
  14. Anonymous

    Pakistan has a corrupt system and needs Islamic governing system and all socio ecnomic according to Islam.

    Posted 3 years ago on 24 Jan 2009 20:20 #
  15. Fahim23
    Member

    @Nahada

    Do you think Islam provides us Guiding principles or a Complete social/political/economic System?

    Posted 3 years ago on 25 Jan 2009 17:51 #
  16. Anonymous

    yes no doubt. Islam is complete code of life.
    Please follow this link for details
    http://www.esnips.com/web/urduliterature?docsPage=1#files

    Posted 3 years ago on 25 Jan 2009 19:47 #
  17. Fahim23
    Member

    @Nahda1423

    Does the Almighty Himself have made this claim through His book "Quran". Or does this claim is made by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? If yes please educate me? If not how can anyone associate such a big claim with Islam and with what authority?

    There were many books in the link you provided, which one specifically you are referring me to read which claims that "Islam and Especially Quran (as few claim) is complete code of life"?

    Posted 3 years ago on 25 Jan 2009 21:06 #
  18. not Quran itself is saying so .
    but by reading & understnding it .
    one can say that with full confidence ,without any doubt that it is a complete code for life.

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Jan 2009 11:21 #
  19. hussainmehdi
    Member

    Dean, Faculty of Islamic Studies, Karachi university Prof. Dr. Jalaluddin Ahmed Noori stole research materials for his phd thesis from three books. Upon complaint, Karachi university sent jalal’s thesis to a commission for verification. The commission verified that the material used in thesis was a stolen material.

    This is level of corruption in the highest education centers of Karachi/Pakistan.

    Karachi University Students are learning from thief.
    What a pity!

    Thank you eshrat ebad, chancellor of Karachi University, official of terrorist mqm!

    If, chancellor himself is a criminal and has various FIRs against him,

    What else, you may expect from such a chancellor?

    Thief will appoint thief.
    This is common sense.

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Jan 2009 11:57 #
  20. Fahim23
    Member

    @Beenai

    As far as I know Quran and Islam provides guiding principles. Neither Prophet (PBUH) nor Quran claimed to provide complete code/systems of life or worldly matters. there is famous tradition in which Prophet (PBUH) commented abt matters of agriculture and thn muslims considered it a religious obligation. Following upon the comment in the love of Prophet (SAW), the farmers had loss in thr cultivation and they brought this matter in front of Prophet (PBUH). He (SAW) thn told them that: you know worldly matters better thn me, meaning I'm not here to teach you everything.

    Like every book Quran has a Distinct subject. And in the opinion of some scholars the subject is "Life after death". If we ponder, we will find that all guiding principles actually guide the humans and jinns to choose a better place in coming life. It is not any book of 1001 totkas of life, or "her maslay ka hal". For example, about economy the guiding principle is that Intrest is Haram. Quran or Islam does not provide complete Economic system. Now based on this guiding principle muslim economist have developed Mudarbah, Musharqah and other products which can be termed as in compliant with Shariah rules. But they are not "Religion/deen" and we muslims are free to alter/improve or reject them. However if such products would have been mentioned in Quran they would have become Deen and obligatory for all of us to follow. Similarly, Quran doesn't teach you to cultivate neither it says anything about Video games! I hope you getting my point.

    It would be unfair on the Book of God from us if we associate things which aint true.

    Posted 3 years ago on 26 Jan 2009 15:20 #
  21. Anonymous

    life after dath is based on life before death

    Fahim23 sorry to say but ur comments shows u have v little knowledge about islam.
    u have to go all books there
    http://www.esnips.com/web/urduliterature?docsPage=1#files

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Jan 2009 14:00 #
  22. Fahim23
    Member

    @Nahada1423

    Excuse my little knowledge. Please educate me and quote me any verse from Quran and Tradition of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or saying of any Sahabi (RA) or Imam (AS) which claim that "Quran is a complete code of life".

    And if you cannot quote me any (as I believe there is none), then please explain to me how are you and on what authority you are attributing something with Quran? If its your personal opinion that Quran is the complete code of life, then its alright. You can form any opinion you like. But it is as likely to be wrong as it is likely to be true.

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Jan 2009 15:31 #
  23. Fahim23
    Member

    @Nahada1423

    I myself am certainly not a scholar. But I learnt this from a scholar that Quran has specific and distinct subject, and that subject is "Life after death". Everything that Quran explains, teaches, orders is for the betterment of our next life through our current life. Then I read the first fre verses of Al-Baqarah, which describes the purpose of revealing this holy book and found that Quran also says it is the Guidance for the life hereafter.

    Let me try to explain my understanding for you:

    Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3)

    Try to ponder on "Who believe in the Unseen". Doesn't it mean Hereafter? This claim is further supported by the next verses in which ALLAH (swt) says....

    And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4)

    In the next verse Quran explains that the belief on what is revealed on Prophet (PBUH) or before him and Hereafter only depends on the guidance from ALLAH (swt). Or only thn ordinary people can be certain of when a guidance is received from the God Himself. ALLAH swt says:

    These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. (5)

    What is the guidance??? it is Quran! Therefore, in my opinion this book is the Guidance for the life after death.

    The concept of Life after death is so vast that most of our adult lives actions are requlated or affected by it. But many instances in our life arise where we have to use our Conscience, Intellect and wisdom for making decisions.

    Regards,

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Jan 2009 15:50 #
  24. hussainmehdi
    Member

    [20:50]
    He said: "Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance."

    Fahim23: you said that:

    Please educate me and quote me any verse from Quran and Tradition of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or saying of any Sahabi (RA) or Imam (AS) which claim that "Quran is a complete code of life".

    please answer that:

    in above mentioned surah,
    who gives each creation its form and nature and further gives guidance???

    so, what is complete code of life in your sense ???

    other than that?

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Jan 2009 17:18 #
  25. This is very important topic in deed. May I suggest exposing various method/ aspects of corruption starting at the top of our society. No need to mention a personality. Just transpose the real names with some fictitious characters. It would be interesting to document real life experiences.

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Jan 2009 17:19 #
  26. Anonymous

    1)
    But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all matters between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
    Sura An-Nisa 4:65

    2)
    Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?
    Sura Al-Maeda 5:50
    3)
    Allah (swt) considered not ruling by Islam as an act of Kufr. Allah (swt) says,
    “And those who do not rule by what Allah has revealed, they are disbelievers.” [TMQ 5:44]

    4)
    “And whosoever seeks a deen other than Islam, it will never be accepted from him, and in
    the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.” [TMQ 3:85]

    5)
    “Whatever the Messenger gives you take it, and whatever he forbids you abstain from it.”
    Al-Hasher 59:7

    Life of Prophet (saw) is model for us to obey.
    “Say if you love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.” [3:31]

    Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. Sura Al-Ahzab 33:21

    “Surely, in the Messenger of Allah, is the best example for those who believe in Allah and
    the Last Day and remember Allah often.” [33:21]

    Messenger of Allah (saw) said, “Whosoever does an action which is not according to our order (i.e. Islam), it is rejected.” And he (saw) said, “Whosoever calls for‘asabiyyah (tribalism) is not one of us.

    i think it would be a good start and u could investigate it further.

    May Allah(SWT) guide us to right path.

    Posted 3 years ago on 28 Jan 2009 18:15 #
  27. Fahim23
    Member

    @Husseinmehdi

    ALLAH (swt) created mankind long before in the form of Adam and Eve. He bestowed humans with Intellect and conscience. In simpler words, He gave humans, inner sense of right and wrong and five (or six) senses (seeing, touching, hearing, smelling, speaking) to acquire knowledge. With His given powers Humanity developed itself in both Good and bad way. Humans started conquering the world and made many conviniences for themselves.

    In their journey, they often confronted with Questions like "Who are we? What happen to us after death? Why are we on earth?, which were not possible for the human capability to answer satisfactorily ". So, the God time to time send His messengers and books to His people. They came not to teach people how to cultivate, Science, make dams, make houses, but they came to teach that There is only One God, and whatever you are doing on this earth you will be held accountable for that.

    People received these guidances but either corrupted them or lost them. Therefore, finally, about 1400 years ago a Book was revealed yet again to humans which is there to remain till the end of days. Quran is not to guide us on Science, medicines, Agriculture, Philosophy or other matters. It is revealed to Guide us on making our life better for the coming world!

    For example, in your relations with your family Quran doesn't tell you what to cook, and how to entertain your wife, kids and brothers and sisters. But it forbids you not to do any injustice, disrespect, dishonesty with your parents, wife, kids and brothers and susters. If you do, you will be punished and if you don't you will be rewarded. This again is pointing towards Hereafter!

    I hope I have conveyed my point properly. Otherwise you are most welcome to disagree.

    Cheers,

    Posted 3 years ago on 29 Jan 2009 2:49 #

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