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Corruption in Pakistan-Who is responsible?

(34 posts)
  1. scandinavian
    Member

    I don't believe anyone doubts that corruption is a major issue in Pakistan. As mentioned in another thread corruption is eating up Pakistan from inside.

    - Who is behind the corruption?

    - Can we pin point the root causes for corruption i.e. which "institutions", government positions "invites" corruption?

    - Unfortunately a total elimination of corruption is not possible. So, what can we do to minimize corruption? Devolution of power? Electing our own "Thanedar"?, where should the money flow go from--->to in order to increase accountability by the people? Elimination of patwari?

    - Who will fight tooth and nail to keep the existing "system" so the loot and plunder can continue? If someone claim the parties which have run Pakistan until now also want to eliminate the "system" which invites to corruption then please answer WHY they have failed to bring a change? Also inform us about when and what they tried and who opposed the change.

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 14:55 #
  2. bsobaid
    Member

    Corruption is due to jageerdara nizaam and Army dictatorships.

    Waisay this root cause business is not so useful..

    Scan is a good man but whenever I see someone on TV identifying root cause, I quickly switch channels as the guy is usually a waste of time...I am sure Scan is wiser than TV intellectuals.

    The arguments go like, there will be no corruption if hukmaran become honest.
    Economy will improve if there is no corruption and bad governance.
    We will come out of Amreeki ghulami if hukmaran become ba ghairat...

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 14:57 #
  3. scandinavian
    Member

    @BSO

    This is an easy way out. Maybe you didn't read my post carefully. IMO we should make systems more water proof i.e. NO "system" which makes corruption easy.

    Devolution of power: How can we do it effectively? Any experience from other parts of the world? I also wrote this:

    "Electing our own "Thanedar"?, where should the money flow go from--->to in order to increase accountability by the people? Elimination of patwari?"

    Like you, I don't believe that ONLY honest leadership can do the trick. It is certainly a major factor, but what will happen when the honest leadership is replaced by corrupt people? Can the system ensure that it is possible to get rid of them through a process where manipulation is impossible/difficult? What if the leadership stops interfering in the work of other institutions? F.ex. the thanedar etc. doesn't get a call to free friends, family and "business" partners.

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 15:13 #
  4. hypocrite
    Member

    I think the simple answer tot he question is

    "Pakistanis"

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 15:21 #
  5. shafiq12
    member

    I heard, someone saying, Imran khan said, Jews are responsible for corruption in Pakistan -- Don't remember who is that
    ;)

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 15:23 #
  6. stingingnettle
    Member

    Oblivion;

    Surely you don't want to be spreading hear-say? That should run against your grain?

    In Pakistan, corruption happens where there is oppotunity. This is our distinguishing feature. Everyone is after opportunities. We love opportunities.

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 17:32 #
  7. Correct we Pakistanis are root cause.

    Solution is simple.

    1. Everybody should try to make himself honest and dont blame others. One must not find excuse for doing corruption by pointing at other corrupt people. Woh sab corruption kar rahay hain to main kion na karoon.

    2. I read somewhere in the Text book of Government School a lesson name Responsibilities of good citizen I think in 9th grade. The writer of that lesson tells a very simple cause of corruption. For example:

    If a milkman mixes water in milk than how can he expect that he will get pure medicine and dutiful people around him.

    So we can conclude that it is a chain reaction. If we are fair then we can expect that people remain fair to us. And believe me it happens. If a person is fair then he will get fairness to great extent if not completely.

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 17:37 #
  8. shafiq12
    member

    stingingnettle
    material education makes them opportunist -- They are educating themselves how to fill their bellies -- They aren't educating themselves how to fill gaps in their souls

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 17:45 #
  9. stingingnettle
    Member

    Oblivion;

    Religious or 'material' education has little or no link with corruption. This is just a fantasy in people's heads. The differential between means and desire is exacerbated by what people see around them and hence the search for opportunities.

    Sifarish, Neoptism and Rishwat, the three magic ways of opening all doors and reducing the differential between means and desire. I do not talk of the people who find it hard to find two naans to dip in some watery 'saalen' to deaden the pain the sits on their stomachs like a hungry vulture.

    Posted 6 months ago on 22 Nov 2011 21:56 #
  10. mariabashir
    Member

    simple answer is:
    Corrupt bureaucracy (both civil & armed forces).
    They show the politicians this dark corridor and the susceptible politicians follow them( instead of leading them away).

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 3:47 #
  11. bsobaid
    Member

    Tv intellectuals kaa answer...

    Agar hukmaran tabqay emaandaar bann jaein aur awami sahee manoo mein islami taleemaat pay aml shuroo karr dein tou society se corruption kaa khatma hojaey gaa.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 3:54 #
  12. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    Scandanavian

    Good and useful thread! Can you please express Imran's plan for elimination of corruption? What methods will he apply, if given power-seat of the country?

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 5:07 #
  13. shafiq12
    member

    stingingnettle
    Purify your inner self, Heart is source of all corruption around the world -- If your heart is weak, it will easy for the corruption to attack on your weak heart -- Strong hearts resist stronger against corruption -- Heart becomes weak due to wordily desires -- You and your material nature can't understand what i am talking

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 5:48 #
  14. mariabashir
    Member

    @oblivion
    Sir I beg to differ.
    Objects always follow path of least resistance.
    Thats why there are laws to keep objects in check and follow the rules.
    Strong Hearts resist corruption because of fear of punishment/wrath.
    کون نہیں چاہتا کے اسکو گھر بیٹھے آسائشیں ملیں.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 6:00 #
  15. mariabashir
    Member

  16. shafiq12
    member

    Objects always follow path of least resistance.
    Thats why there are laws to keep objects in check and follow the rules.

    Why Pakistan, with so many laws, is failed state -- Why the American, the educated one, are making the world a hell hole -- It's corruption of hearts -- If every person purifies his heart, then there would be no corruption in the world -- Heart is source which makes people sicks -- Heart gets sickness when it is attached to sickness -- I give you example of cricket, its pure mental sickness -- If you attach your heart to cricket, you will be sick of cricket -- see, how majority of Pakistani are sick of cricket -- Today majority of Pakistani politician have sicken themselves and sickness of heart always increase with the increase in time --

    Strong Hearts resist corruption because of fear of punishment/wrath.
    کون نہیں چاہتا کے اسکو گھر بیٹھے آسائشیں ملیں.

    Strong hearts resist in love of God, God would be angry if they lead themselves to corruption --

    کون نہیں چاہتا کے اسکو گھر بیٹھے آسائشیں ملیں.

    A heart, which is sicken by worldly desires, wants every luxury of life -- Majority of people are sick, can't distinguish between corruption and cure -- It isn't good to use example of majority against good which is in nature

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 6:33 #
  17. stingingnettle
    Member

    BSOBAID;

    "Agar hukmaran tabqay emaandaar bann jaein aur awami sahee manoo mein islami taleemaat pay aml shuroo karr dein tou society se corruption kaa khatma hojaey gaa."

    With all due respect; the 'Agar' in your comment, is such a big one that no one can see past it. Are you referring to the way the Saudi's live and do business? They seem to be very close to 'islami taleemaat'.

    I am afraid, without meaning any disrespect to you, I find your suggestion as practical as walking through the thick fog of self-deception.

    @Mariabashir

    I take your point.

    Fear, in my opinion, drives compliance whereas as education drives adherence. Pakistanis need to adhere not comply. We seem to be unable to think beyond either the pain in this life or the after-life. Laws are about communal well-being, it's not rocket science, they certainly don't need dogmatic affirmation for them to work and make sense.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 8:32 #
  18. stingingnettle
    Member

    Oblivion;

    Purfication of water is a bit more important than my inner self.

    Don't be simpilistic, be complex but not complicated. The response to today's life and living requires thinking outside the box, whatever box one lives in.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 8:36 #
  19. shafiq12
    member

    stingingnettle
    like i said, you are materialist -- The connection of vice and virtue is related to inner self -- If you aren't educated about your inner self, you can't pure yourself, ultimately you will lead to corruption -- You need to stop yourself against the corruption -- Every one needs to stop himself against the corruption which he is contributing in the society -- If, what i am saying, happens, then society would be heaven on earth --- Every must purify himself --
    The prophet said,He who knows himself has known his Lord -- This means inner purification -- Recognize yourself -- you will become torch bearer when you Recognize yourself

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 8:52 #
  20. Corruption root cause is because, we have parted our way from our religion.
    Just read Quran with Translation and you will understand life better and will never ever support corrupt people or get involved in corruption.

    Eman ki kamzori hee aap ko corruption ki taraf dhakailti hay!

    That's just my two pennies' worth; you can believe what you like.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 8:57 #
  21. shafiq12
    member

    khan sahib
    very well said, Eman is related to innerself, weaker eman leads to corruption -- stingingnettle, on the other hand, doesn't believe in such theories -- As he is modern educated guy , he believes in scientific treatment --

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 9:04 #
  22. @OBLIVION:

    LEAVE him alone. He has "issues" with religion and lives in another planet. ;)

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 9:10 #
  23. saladin89
    Member

    The system is the responsible for corruption, and the main beneficeries are PPP, PML N and like minded status quo parties, who do not allow the system to change.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 9:57 #
  24. Saladin89.

    System (Laws) are there to be implemented but if the gate keepers are corrupt than who to blame? It does come down to your own conscious and your emaan!

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 10:08 #
  25. sasherwani
    Members

    Its very difficult to discuss this topic with brief posts. Corruption is inversely related to equal distribution of wealth. Higher the corruption poorer the awaam, lower the corruption the richer the middle class. Pakistan's corruption is a direct result of two reasons :

    1) Army dictatorship
    2) Corrupt democracies

    Musharraf and especially Zia didn't use the funds received from their master USA into productive use i.e. education, road infrastructure, hospitals, research etc. These funds were received for Pak army's participation in the (so-called) War Against Terrorism and Afghan wars. Firstly we shouldn't have bowed down to the orders of the US and even if we were acting as slaves at least we should've used the funds for a constructive cause. What Zia-Musharraf did with these funds was buy out politicians to keep their vote banks strong. This is why both of them stayed in power for longer than any other Pakistani dictator. There was 'some' progress in their eras primarily because of a cash inflow from Non-resident Pakistanis but during the end of their tenures, Pakistanis had realized about the corruption levels in these dictatorial governments. That is when the economies collapsed.
    Corrupt politicians especially Nawaz, Benazir and especially Zardari not only engaged in buying out politicans, but also created personal empires both within and outside the country. Asif Zardari would easily take the award for the most corrupt politician in Pakistani history. He, unlike, Nawaz used the government-backed banks funds to invest overseas. Nawaz used these loans to create most of his industries in Pakistan. Ofcourse he never paid off these loans and that is why the state bank became poorer and poorer. It wasn't able to loan money to small investors, starters etc. People lost faith in the governments. This is why a country which gives the 'highest' amount of charity/capita became one of the biggest income-tax cheats in the world. Pakistanis just didnt want to give a part of their hard earned money to these politicians who would use it to fund their personal wants.

    Corruption destroyed our education system, our healthcare system, our road infrastructure, tourism, green-landscapes, our national airline, our railways, our roadtransport system, our agricultural industry, small&medium sized businesses, entertainment industry, job market and even our sports.

    Pakistan is a miracle of a country which has survived so many evil dictators and corrupt politicians. But all think-tanks and intellectuals now believe that we cant perform miracles forever. Forget Imran Khan. ANY new person who intends a positive change should take this country by storm as long as he stands firmly against the status-quo.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 11:21 #
  26. stingingnettle
    Member

    Oblivion;

    "like i said, you are materialist..."

    Well, sadly you are wrong but your 'eman' and your pure inner self did not stop you from passing judgement. And yes, the painful truth is; you can say what ever you like, it will not become the truth. What I am in a religious sense is a matter between me and God, after all I am answerable for my own deeds only. I suggest we keep faith personal and not judge other people's purity, lack of it or emman, as that can show a huge insecurity on your part.

    " stingingnettle, on the other hand, doesn't believe in such theories -- As he is modern educated guy , he believes in scientific treatment --"

    Sadly, if your iman is only given you some wild power to pass judgement then I am afraid it has not served you well. I am not sure if it is a compliment or a disrespect, for someone to be called 'modern' by you; but my view is that modernity does not mean lack of values or faith. This is something you need to understand. Science is not a belief system and there is nothing to believe. I believe in letting everyone believe what they want to believe.

    You, I found worth responding to but notice I did not respond to the tripe from a bigot and hypocrite who is drowning in his version of emman. It is nice to live on a different planet to him.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 21:22 #
  27. pakstar
    Member

    Pak Army and Pak nation both are salves of Army Generals, these army Gernals are the main problem for all issues in pakistan from food to shelter. All playgrounds turned into army flats, all food goes to army mess first, kids of army officers study free and free land and houses etc.. Army left Whole nation for struggle to breath.

    Army has always neglected to recognize this issue and therefore till date no internal or external system to scrutinizing corrupt generals has been under-consideration.

    The real problem of Pakistan is army rule.

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 21:34 #
  28. bsobaid
    Member

    @sting, that was'nt my answer that is the usual answer of TV intellectuals.. No wonder I dont watch these talk shows.

    "Tv intellectuals kaa answer..."

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 21:37 #
  29. stingingnettle
    Member

    BSOBAID;

    Thanks for that. Makes sense now.

    Things that people do to get some air time eh!

    You are not the only one not watching this dross and that is good news. If channels pay Rs 10 for every time they use, 'Zaroorat eis amar kee hae...........' bla bla bla, the country will be solvent again.

    Anyway....

    Posted 6 months ago on 23 Nov 2011 21:54 #
  30. expakistani
    Member

    I take some responsibility... would you guys want to take your own share?

    I mean, we all contributed to this mess, knowingly or unknowingly...seeing around us and not saying anything against it or not even feeling any guilt is also part of corruption.

    Posted 6 months ago on 24 Nov 2011 2:57 #
  31. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    khan-saheb

    Rightly expressed by you that the guardians of our country are themselves plunderers.

    Posted 6 months ago on 24 Nov 2011 5:23 #
  32. shafiq12
    member

    it will not become the truth. What I am in a religious sense is a matter between me and God, after all I am answerable for my own deeds only.

    You need not to hide your inner self -- If your inner-self is clear, then your outer-self will be clear -- Actually, I see some corruption in your innerself -- That's why you are hiding it -- Don't get me wrong, I ain't Judging you but the way you are hiding your inner self, is quite suspicious -- A person whose innerself is corrupted, only he hides things about what he believes, on the other hand, you are afraid to tell people -- It seems, there is something wrong with your innerself and outerself -- You are afraid to tell people about your innerself -- You aren't afraid of God -- Clearly, you making your case doubtfull -- I am musilm, I believe in Allah, his prophets, his commands, his books -- That's my innerself, I wouldn't hesitate even if i were agnostic or athiest in my innerself --

    Sadly, if your iman is only given you some wild power to pass judgement then I am afraid it has not served you well. I am not sure if it is a compliment or a disrespect, for someone to be called 'modern' by you; but my view is that modernity does not mean lack of values or faith. This is something you need to understand. Science is not a belief system and there is nothing to believe. I believe in letting everyone believe what they want to

    Eman is related to innerself, Eman is innerward deeds -- It seems you are afraid of people -- You fear people, that's why you are hiding things again and again --- Your inside could be bright if you stop fearing people. Stop making reputation before people, People wouldn't bring any harm or benefit to your innerself

    Posted 6 months ago on 24 Nov 2011 6:06 #
  33. Revivalist
    member

    when a person will spend millions in his/her elections campaign to grab a seat in the parliament, what do you expect from him/her? And when the same lot of people will legislate, what legislation can you expect from them? An interior minister who cant even recite kalma and surah Ikhlas what would you expect from such crap? The whole capitalist/secular/democratic system in Pakistan is corrupt and needs to be replaced radically, only then we could get rid of corruption to much extent.

    Posted 6 months ago on 24 Nov 2011 7:27 #
  34. stingingnettle
    Member

    ^

    "An interior minister who cant even recite kalma and surah Ikhlas what would you expect from such crap?"

    I more worried about his total incompetence in the job he is supposed to do. He can always learn the Kalima and Surah e Ikhlas but that won't make hiM better at his job.

    His recent doctorate from Karachi Uni, now there is something to go sleepless over.

    Learning more about religion does not make you a good administrator by default, this is the truth you are reluctant to say.

    Democracy is always an infinitely better option that holy khilafat or theocracy. The radical changes we need are already under way, just hold your horse for a bit longer.

    What you believe and how you believe is your personal business, but good governance is everyone's business. Keep the two in separate boxes, they just not mix.

    Posted 6 months ago on 24 Nov 2011 21:54 #

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